- 1 week ago
John, Kevin, and Barb trace how “deeper things” messaging can slide sincere believers into authoritarian control, prayer “strategy,” and dominion-flavored activism. Along the way, they weigh the cost of handling heavy survivor stories, why accountability structures matter, and how “God said” language can shut down discernment.
They also connect dots between revival hype, conference culture, and leadership models that reward influence without oversight. The conversation lands on practical discernment: testing fruit, refusing manipulation, rebuilding faith after spiritual harm, and keeping the God of Scripture central instead of a performance-driven substitute.
00:00 Introduction
06:00 Valerie Evans' Story And Why It Matters
10:16 The Emotional Toll Of Covering Heavy Stories
14:31 Summary Of Valerie's Experience
19:44 Counseling, False Memory Concerns, And Spiritual Harm
25:23 Is This Unique To The NAR Or A Wider Problem?
30:36 How Twisted Doctrine Creates Systemic Abuse
38:00 Why Unchecked Power Keeps Repeating The Cycle
45:52 Marketing, Strategy, And The Business Of Revival
52:34 Can The System Be Fixed?
______________________
Kevin and Barb's links
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61564847030961
Blog:https://www.pellegrinowalk.com
Website:www.pellegrinowalk.com
Valerie Evans Story:https://youtu.be/XMuFYQ-mQS4
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
They also connect dots between revival hype, conference culture, and leadership models that reward influence without oversight. The conversation lands on practical discernment: testing fruit, refusing manipulation, rebuilding faith after spiritual harm, and keeping the God of Scripture central instead of a performance-driven substitute.
00:00 Introduction
06:00 Valerie Evans' Story And Why It Matters
10:16 The Emotional Toll Of Covering Heavy Stories
14:31 Summary Of Valerie's Experience
19:44 Counseling, False Memory Concerns, And Spiritual Harm
25:23 Is This Unique To The NAR Or A Wider Problem?
30:36 How Twisted Doctrine Creates Systemic Abuse
38:00 Why Unchecked Power Keeps Repeating The Cycle
45:52 Marketing, Strategy, And The Business Of Revival
52:34 Can The System Be Fixed?
______________________
Kevin and Barb's links
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61564847030961
Blog:https://www.pellegrinowalk.com
Website:www.pellegrinowalk.com
Valerie Evans Story:https://youtu.be/XMuFYQ-mQS4
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my very special guests, Kevin and Barbara Sisti, host of Pellegrino Walk Podcast.
00:49Kevin, Barb, it's good to have you back on and to catch up.
00:52You guys have been crazy busy with your podcast, and I was looking this morning at some of the things
00:58that you've got on there.
00:59I had no idea it would explode in the ways that it did, and I'm curious, from your perspective, how
01:05are you handling the explosion?
01:07Wow, yeah, that's interesting.
01:09It's like, well, I've talked to you, John.
01:12And it's a lot of time, right, invested.
01:16And so that's part of it, just, you know, spending the time necessary for research and then putting it all
01:24to video and then the editing and all this upload process, which you don't even understand.
01:30And people have been asking us, you know, are you guys going to do a live broadcast?
01:35And we're like, we don't even know how to videotape right now.
01:38We're just, we're trying to figure it out.
01:40We're in a little shed here, and we do our little podcast and teaching.
01:45Yeah, I think I wrote yesterday on one of the comments, that would be a colossal train wreck at this
01:50point.
01:50So probably not anytime soon.
01:53But, yeah, I think that and the research, and, you know, we've been really trying to establish boundaries of, okay,
02:00we also, you know, want to work on our covenant, and we're trying to pour into our community locally, and
02:07we travel a lot.
02:08So, you know, we're learning.
02:10We're learning.
02:11Oh, those boundaries.
02:13Yeah, Kevin and I have real fun conversations.
02:16Apparently, my boundaries are a little more strict than Kevin.
02:19Justin, a tad bit.
02:21That's problematic.
02:22Justin.
02:22It turns out I'm not going to put my cell number across the bottom of the screen.
02:28I'm just saying.
02:29Why not?
02:30And there it is.
02:31There it is.
02:33Yeah, I have very few boundaries, as people know.
02:36You know, people don't really realize how much time and effort goes into these things.
02:41I remember whenever, I was advised by one of my partners to turn on the ad revenue.
02:48He said, John, your time is worth something to you.
02:51You can't keep doing this forever.
02:52And so I turned it on, and I'll never forget the backlash.
02:55I got emails.
02:57I got phone calls, text messages.
02:59The comment feeds blew up.
03:01Why are you doing that?
03:02You're just doing this for money.
03:04And I actually, recently, I went through and just tried to figure out, okay, if this were
03:10to be doing it for money as a business, what would I be making?
03:13And granted, all things out in the open.
03:16My day starts between 4 or 4.30 a.m.
03:19It's when I wake up, and as soon as I get coffee, I'm out there editing videos, producing videos,
03:24and I'll go until sometimes 9 or 10 at night and wake up the next day and do it again.
03:29And I figured out how much I would make on the ad revenue, which you get, I want to say
03:36it's
03:36a fraction of a fraction of a penny for each view that you get.
03:40So it's not much.
03:42And it came out to like $2 an hour.
03:46Yeah, definitely not doing it to get rich, yeah.
03:49Mission wages, there it is.
03:54Oh, my goodness.
03:55No, and it's interesting.
03:57I think Kevin, one of the conversations I have with Kevin most frequently is I was not ready
04:04for all of the advice that is given, from everything to hairstyle to, it's just an interesting, yeah.
04:15Nobody ever mentions my hairstyle.
04:17They really don't.
04:17I don't understand.
04:18They really don't.
04:19Yeah, yes.
04:20So, I don't know, but it's just.
04:23It's funny.
04:24I read to the comments, and you've got people who think they're doctors, and they're telling me,
04:29like, one person diagnosed, I have a throat condition from allergies,
04:32and one person diagnosed it on the internet, put it in the comment feeds,
04:35and you need to go do this.
04:37You need to take this medicine.
04:38I'm like, you don't know me.
04:39You've never diagnosed me.
04:41And it's just, it's funny, and I enjoy reading the comments because I actually learn from them.
04:48People, if I can get people talking, and that's largely what I try to do on the podcast,
04:53people will open up and say things on the comment feeds that they actually wouldn't say to your face.
04:58And so, I get feedback about myself, and I read through it,
05:02and I'm like, yeah, they're probably right.
05:04I probably need to stop doing that.
05:07And other things you get, you know, the people supporting whatever is the group.
05:11But I do read through them.
05:13I don't have time to respond to all of them.
05:15But as you grow, I guess you'll catch on to this.
05:18And the feedback about the appearance, I don't have much to work with,
05:24so I just kind of ignore that one.
05:28Yeah, I have a floppy hair problem, which I understand, but short of shaving everything off, or, you know.
05:35Yeah, you don't want to do that.
05:36I'm just not, and I'm not super girly, so I'm not going to do a lot of bobbles and barrettes
05:41and, I don't know.
05:43This is just, this is as real as it gets.
05:46We're in our shed.
05:47Yeah, this is it.
05:48If we've showered, it's a great day, and that's how it goes, you know.
05:52I'm not super girly either, so I understand your pain.
05:55I'm glad.
05:56Appreciate that.
05:58Oh, wow, wow.
06:00So recently you had an interview with the Evans girl.
06:05I want to hear more about that.
06:07Yeah, yeah, very interesting, very heart-wrenching interview.
06:15So, Valerie Evans, for those of you who haven't watched the story, and if you haven't, we're not going to
06:22go into tremendous detail with the story today, so that you can go back and hear it in her own
06:28words.
06:29But basically a story of a lot of different kinds of abuse at the hands of church leadership, and this
06:39was, in particular, one particular person that we've been involved with in the past, Dean Briggs.
06:45This was before the IHOP KC's and before the Lou Engels and being on stage and all that.
06:52So, yeah, a really, really heart-wrenching story of, I would say, spiritual abuse.
07:00I would say actual sexual abuse, clergy abuse, therapist abuse, all of it.
07:09Just absolute, he tried to destroy this woman, and what a resilient story of her coming out the other end,
07:18just in victory in the Lord.
07:22And I think the thing that made it really particularly disturbing for me is because the way she told her
07:30story in humility and with such grace.
07:33What a gracious woman, just, I admire her already, and just the systematic dismantling of her life that someone claimed
07:46to hear about through the audible voice of the Lord.
07:50And her, in her, you know, zealousness to run hard after the Lord, was just doing her best to try
07:59and submit to the authorities as an unmarried young woman in her early 20s, just trying to, like, okay, if
08:06this is what I need to do, just tell me what I need to do and I'll do it.
08:09And for that, it's just, it's cruel, and it's diabolical, the level of just intentionally, systematically, every aspect of her
08:19life just dismantling.
08:21And for what end and for what purpose is still really, you know, honestly, John keeps me up at night
08:28because I'm like, why would you do this for, why?
08:32Like, why?
08:33You know, and that's part of the reason I wanted to start Lighthearted, because this is a very heavy subject
08:38that you're going to be getting into.
08:40But also, I want to talk through that, definitely, but I also want to talk through what it's like for
08:45you having to deal with such heavy topics.
08:49Every Friday, I interview people who have escaped from cults, and a lot of people don't see what happens behind
08:55the scenes, but there are things that are said that I just can't put out there, and some of them
08:59are horrific.
09:01In fact, there are things that are said that people tell me, I'm going to tell you this in private,
09:05John, but I can't let you tell the whole story in public.
09:09Here's what I can give for legal reasons or sometimes family reasons, but there are people that have really, really
09:15suffered and struggled.
09:16And I'll be honest with you, it takes a toll on the person who is working with them, which would
09:23be both of you, me, whenever I'm doing this with the people on Fridays.
09:28And it takes a toll.
09:30What I try to do to get through it, and not everybody can do this, but I try to just
09:35think of something funny while they're talking, not because I'm making light of what they're saying,
09:42but if I go with them into that dark place and then do it again for the next person and
09:47continue for the next person, it will take a toll on you.
09:50And it has on me before.
09:53I kind of, I'm able to skirt around a little bit by trying to introduce laughter into the podcast, but,
09:59and that's one of the feedbacks I get from people, right?
10:02You laugh too much, John.
10:04So I try to do that.
10:07How has it, the things that you're talking through with her and others, how has that affected your mental health
10:14as you're doing it?
10:15Well, I think that we both have different stories on this and different ways in which it affects us.
10:24For me personally, it was, it was mostly before the video came out and the heaviness of her story and
10:35understanding that it needed to be shared and just the weight of it all.
10:40I was really feeling overwhelmed with it.
10:43And then, of course, when you hear a story like that, you're always relating it to, to things that you've
10:50gone through yourself.
10:52You know, I know it's been so helpful for many people out there because they've commented on Valerie's story.
10:58Oh my, you know, you've really helped me with this.
11:01So you're always, you're always putting yourself in it.
11:04And so, like you said, even as you're, you're listening to it, I listened to her story, obviously on the
11:10videotape, on the video.
11:13And then I also read her story.
11:15I heard her story before that.
11:17Right.
11:18So her story was constantly going through my mind.
11:21And we know some of the players.
11:23We know Dean Briggs.
11:25And so that brings back a whole layer of other things that, that are intertwined in decisions that we could
11:32have made with Dean Briggs that might have been better or called him out sooner.
11:36Or, so it's all those things.
11:38And yeah, it, it's, the, the darkness is real and it, and it does fall upon you.
11:45And you've got to find ways of getting out of that, not only by prayer in the word, but just
11:51doing, doing healthy things.
11:53Right.
11:53Well, and I think as you're talking, John, I'm thinking of, you know, the joy of the Lord is our
11:57strength.
11:57And that's the conversation that Kevin and I have been having is, okay, we, we need to keep producing the
12:05fruit of the spirit, you know, love, joy, peace.
12:07And so, um, finding a safe space of peace in the Lord as we stand in the center of all
12:16this chaos and, and cruelty and, and things that are so clearly not of the God of the Bible.
12:24Um, I think one of the things that I struggled with, um, as a woman was just, it really, it
12:32really brought back to me.
12:34Um, we, we had a week after we filmed it before we, we pushed, put it, published it, I guess
12:40is the word I want.
12:41Um, and I, uh, it, I had to relive some of my own misogyny in the church, some of my
12:48own stories.
12:50Um, it, it, uh, and again, kind of that idea of things that happened to me, but also things that
12:56I saw that I didn't really know how to speak into.
13:00I think one of the things that, that was really fascinating to me is before Valerie contacted us, um, I
13:08had been kind of looking into some things based on some other things with Dean Briggs.
13:13And I kept noticing that he said he was a church planter in his bio, and I kept going, what,
13:18what church?
13:19Like, what?
13:19And, and then when they came forward, this is the, the single church that we saw.
13:25Um, but it reminded me of when I've been in missions in other countries around the world.
13:30And I, I told Kevin, one of the things that was, that grieves my heart is there are some amazing
13:36missionaries that are called of the Lord and, and, and over there doing the work of the Lord.
13:41But it reminded me of so many people that, um, were kicked out of churches in America or held accountable
13:48and they didn't want to be.
13:49And then they just went overseas because nobody knows them there and they just started a ministry or started, um,
13:56so from a culpability standpoint and from a, uh, wow, like I've seen some things that I'm not sure what
14:02I would have done or what I could have done.
14:04Um, but I think it, it, it, it begs that question of like, where were the people around Valerie that
14:12were, that were going, wait a second, uh, this isn't, this isn't okay.
14:17There, there was, there was none of that.
14:19And I, in my own story, it was the same idea of like, okay, I went through some of this
14:25stuff and where were those people and how do we, how do we ensure it doesn't happen again?
14:31And we can't, but we try.
14:33So for anybody who is unfamiliar with Valerie Evans and her story, it might be good to give just a
14:39little summary for people.
14:41I, what caught my ear in the whole thing she mentioned, was it Bolivar, Missouri?
14:46I think it was.
14:47Yes.
14:47I spent my high school years in Pittsburgh, Kansas, and I've actually been through there.
14:52I didn't stop, I don't think, but I've been through there either one or two times.
14:57But in traveling, you find that there's a heavy presence of Pentecostalism through that area.
15:03Um, we, I used to travel every Sunday, a lot of people don't know this about me, I would travel
15:09from Pittsburgh, Kansas to this little church in the mountains, in the Ozark Mountains, probably hour and a half away
15:16every Sunday.
15:17And it was so backwoods and redneck that whenever you're going up the, the street that's going up the mountain
15:25to the church, they had actually not wanted to remove the tree that was in the middle of where the
15:31road was.
15:31So, they paved the road around the tree.
15:34I love that.
15:34And as you're, as you're driving on the right, you go around the tree, to the left, you go around
15:38it.
15:38So, I, I'm familiar with the area.
15:40I don't, I don't think where she was, was that backwoods.
15:44But tell us a little bit about Valerie and, and her story.
15:47Well, and I think, I think maybe you should do that, Barb, if you can, if you can summarize it.
15:53Yeah, that's what I see.
15:54Worst is summarizing.
15:55Yeah.
15:58But, truly, the story was that this was a young woman in her college years, and she had gone to
16:07college in the area, found this church, a very small community of believers.
16:11And then she was just trying to run hard, and she said it was, it was a small church of
16:16less than 40.
16:18And a lot of it was college-age women, which she was one of those.
16:23She was unmarried at the time, and her family lived several hours away.
16:27So, she was kind of by herself, and it just was a progressive thing.
16:32She's a worship leader.
16:33She wanted to work in the church.
16:35They were trying to open a prayer room.
16:37So, they were actually traveling to IHOP KC when it was in its fledgling, starting in the 1999 and 2000,
16:44when it was still in the trailers and super tiny.
16:48And then she was the one that was actually kind of living as a missionary, according to her words, and
16:55fundraising, garnering support, doing some tutoring in the area, or teaching, substitute teaching or something, if I remember correctly.
17:03But basically, it was the progression of that, her just trying to follow the Lord, getting more and more involved.
17:09Some of her own story crept up, and she found herself in weekly counseling appointments with Dean Briggs.
17:16And it all just kind of spiraled from there.
17:19I think that the heart and the crux of the abuse started after she felt, because of her ongoing relationship
17:28with him as a pastor-counselor, she was noticing some pride.
17:32And she called him out on it, appropriately, behind closed doors.
17:37And after that happened, it just is really interesting how all of a sudden it went out of control.
17:44And I think with that, we'll leave the rest of the story, right, for people to actually see.
17:50But it's a story of just authoritative abuse and control, manipulation on an epic scale.
18:01And to a woman that just confronted a man, you know, based on pride that she saw, and then, you
18:10know, leadership literally tried to destroy her.
18:14Systematically destroying her life, everything from her career to telling her what she could talk about with her friends, and
18:19then including her friends in the process.
18:23And it's just, it unravels into such a darkness.
18:27But the good news is that the Lord, in spite of that, where she did try and, like, kind of
18:34what you've talked about, John, is, like, you have to strip everything back, right?
18:37And go, okay, what's real?
18:38What's really God?
18:39Is God real?
18:40And then you just have to strip back every layer.
18:43So, thankfully, praise God, her husband, she says it, he says, very new believer, but she's like, I clung to
18:52his faith when I was wrestling through mine, trying to find my way back.
18:56And it's just, she's just a humble, you know, just delightful woman.
19:02And I just, I'm, and her point was, she wanted to share her story because she knows it's still happening.
19:09She wants to give hope to other people.
19:12And, you know, and for us, we, we do know Dean, and we did know Dean.
19:18And this actually, sadly, put a lot of pieces into our puzzle that I'm like, okay.
19:26Oh, okay, this is, this is a pattern of behavior.
19:29This is a character deficit, best case scenario, and that's not a good one anyway.
19:34So, and I'll put the link to it in the description so anybody who's listening or watching, they can find
19:40your podcast and learn more.
19:43I'm, I'm a little bit different with the people that I'm working with in that I am not a big
19:48fan of Christian counseling.
19:49I have seen too many cases where, I mean, this is one of the worst cases if all of what
19:55she says is true.
19:56But there are other cases where the counselor will try to do things using the authority of religion to a
20:06person who's not really ready for that.
20:09And so I'm, I'm really not a big fan of Christian counseling.
20:12I understand it has its place, and there's some people that would prefer that.
20:15But I've come to the conclusion that if I'm working with some, if I'm working with a doctor, for example,
20:22I won't go to a Christian doctor for my diabetes.
20:25I would if he were to just be Christian, but I would not seek out only a Christian, I think
20:30is what I'm saying.
20:31I would seek out somebody who understands the health issues that I have and try to help me with those.
20:36And if I were to go to a diabetes doctor and he were to suddenly say, you know, this insulin
20:42works or this metformin works, but you can also do the same thing with prayer and fasting, I would probably
20:49run screaming.
20:50But if you go to, sometimes if you go to Christian counseling, you can get a good one and they
20:54won't do this.
20:54But I've heard so many stories of people who have went to the wrong ones.
20:59And that's, for me, that's one of the problems.
21:02But it is, it's heartbreaking to hear when somebody goes through this kind of thing, because your whole life is
21:09wrapped up in this worldview.
21:11And then suddenly, whenever this happens, you're not only are they robbing from you, and in this case, there may
21:17be some abuse issues.
21:19They are damaging your future.
21:23And I say this because I actually just had an interview last night with a person.
21:29The husband was so deeply involved in the church, and it wasn't this type of abuse.
21:36It was a spiritual abuse he was under.
21:38But almost every, almost, I would say for the past 10 years, he's not even been able to set foot
21:46in a church.
21:46They have started to go to a church now, but the fear and anxiety of just walking through the door,
21:53that's something that he experiences.
21:55And I'll be open and honest.
21:57That's something that I experience.
21:58I almost can't sit through a service.
22:01And it's heartbreaking to think that there are people out there that are that way, like me, just simply because
22:08of the spiritual abuse in the church.
22:10Yeah, that's certainly understandable.
22:12I think in this case, John, too, looking at the counseling situation, there's a number of things that are wrong
22:20with it.
22:20Obviously, it's just a man and a woman in a counseling situation like that.
22:27And then further, it's the suggestive idea of the counseling, especially used with her to bring memories that just may
22:39or may not have been there.
22:41In her case, they were not there.
22:43They were memories that were just false memories that were brought up.
22:47So you've got all this kind of counseling going on, but the abuse of this is beyond imagination, because when
22:57you're placing suggestions in someone's head, you're leading them and guiding them down a road that it's just false from
23:09the very beginning.
23:10Right. Well, and it's dangerous. I think anytime somebody is using, and to quote, the audible voice of the Lord
23:18as the launching point for anything.
23:23Yeah, where do you go from there?
23:24Right. And you can't really refute it, and especially if it's a leader over you.
23:28He was her pastor. He was one of the co-founding pastors and her counselor.
23:34But then you're adding in this, we've talked about this privately a lot, this theophastic psychology that has lots of
23:43problems.
23:44You know, we talk about Sosa, where people are like being guided by lay people, essentially.
23:50You know, and it's inner healing, so you're being led into, you're using your imagination to be led into the
23:58situation where Jesus comes in.
24:00Yeah, it's all like that.
24:01Right, which seems like, if you just think about it, I'd like to bring Jesus into my pain and picture
24:06where he was when this was happening.
24:08But I have a really hard time, as a female, you know, knowing some of the statistics of women that
24:17have overcome sexual abuse in their story.
24:21And, you know, to like put Jesus at the foot of the bed when you're going through a horrific event,
24:29I think trivializes both Jesus and the event.
24:34And so, I don't know that that's a helpful way to do that to me.
24:41And so, yeah, I think you're right about that.
24:45It's fraught with, well, with fleshly people who are, you know, we're doing our best, too, but we miss it
24:53a lot.
24:55Absolutely.
24:56It's really sad.
24:57Like I said, I have real pain inside of me whenever I talk to people like this.
25:03I'm an empath, and so I feel what they're feeling often.
25:07And, again, that's why I try to find something that I can bring out of the state of depression into
25:13laughter while I'm speaking.
25:14And it's difficult.
25:18So, after you talk to her, how do you see the overall New Apostolic Reformation as it relates to her
25:29experience?
25:29Do you think what she's experiencing is something that's unique?
25:33Do you think it's more common than people realize?
25:36What are your thoughts?
25:37Yeah.
25:38As far as the NAR is concerned or just the idea of the – and I've been mentioning some of
25:45this on the videos that I've been doing,
25:47but you've got this greater spirit-empowered movement, which is across the world.
25:52It's almost 644 million strong, and just all kinds of threads of charismatic and word of faith and all the
26:02things basically from latter rain, global missions, all of this.
26:06So, I mean, you've got that greater movement that's out there.
26:10And, yeah, I think the abuse is rampant.
26:13I think it's all over the world.
26:16I don't think it's only in NAR churches.
26:19I think we have it in denominational churches that are heavy-handed with the idea of authoritarian leadership or shepherding,
26:28things of that nature.
26:30But, yeah, I think it's systemic, and I think its root goes everywhere.
26:36And I think that's a good segue into what we were talking about this morning as far as the roots.
26:45We keep saying – and, John, one of the things that I'm grateful for is the exposure lately of all
26:53the bad fruit that's in Christian circles, and we're seeing it.
26:58And it's like, okay, well, this leader falls and this one falls.
27:02And we're not asking for that, but we're seeing it happen because people are doing bad and horrendous things out
27:08there.
27:08But it is the fruit of a greater problem, a systemic problem.
27:14And going down to the root, and with the last two years of our research, man, it's deep.
27:21Well, and it's like you're talking about.
27:23We were talking about we got to get to the root because if the root's bad, the tree's bad, the
27:27fruit are bad, right?
27:28Biblically, a good tree produces good fruit, a bad tree produces bad fruit.
27:32So, that's our template for it, right?
27:34The plumb line of scripture.
27:36But what we're really talking about now that is alarming, and when you're talking about being an empath and just
27:43carrying it, you know,
27:45Kevin had a couple days where he's just like, I just feel the burden of this, and I can't shake
27:49it because –
27:50And I think what we have to our horror and just – yeah, horror – is determined is that it's
27:59not just that there's a couple bad roots.
28:02This is a systemic root system.
28:05And these roots are now, you know, and I told Kevin this morning, I said, you know, we need to
28:09start talking about denominations
28:11because this isn't just affecting and effecting the charismatic Pentecostal circles.
28:18This is now going into your Presbyterian churches and your Lutheran churches and your –
28:22Because they're using conferences, they're using, you know, these calls and these big stadium events and the music and all
28:33the things to, you know, expand the movement.
28:40And it is systemic, and it is starting to infiltrate to levels where I'm like, okay, we need to start
28:46talking to some of the churches
28:48because on one-on-one basis, we've kind of talked to people in Presbyterian or whatever because we have different
28:54connections.
28:55Well, let me give a quick story here.
28:58You know, how did I end up at IHOP KC in an NAR church, right?
29:05How did I get there?
29:06Well, I started in a Presbyterian church, so – and through the missions program, because I was concerned about preaching
29:16the gospel on the streets
29:17and getting the word out to the people and the homeless and all that, which got me involved with disciple
29:23multiplication movements, DMM,
29:25which has – well, I would say is heavily influenced by NAR threads and streams.
29:34And gradually, that got me out there.
29:37Of course, we're preaching the gospel, but we're also transforming communities.
29:42That's about Christianization of communities, which is, again, we're getting into – all of a sudden sliding into dominion.
29:49And, oh, this is a great thing, and look what we're doing and all that.
29:53But then, all of a sudden, you go from there to the next conference, to this event, to this teaching
29:57event,
29:58and you're eventually at an IHOP KC or a Bethel going, okay, well, how did that change happen?
30:06And maybe that was a three-year slide into that, and God, through his sovereignty, saw fit to bring us
30:14together through that,
30:15to bring us into what we're doing now.
30:17But still, this is happening.
30:20Yeah.
30:21It wasn't too long ago that you wouldn't have seen an NAR pastor invited to a conference,
30:26because everybody kind of went, their theology isn't okay.
30:30And now it's, oh, we're unity under John 17, and so everything has changed.
30:35Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started,
30:39or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,
30:44charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
30:49You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
30:56On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley,
31:02Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
31:10You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
31:17If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
31:23top.
31:23And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
31:29watching.
31:30On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
31:35Recently, I've been digging into the history of how cover-up culture began.
31:41And it's not something that started recently.
31:43This is something that's been ongoing.
31:45And I have to be very careful with this, because there's some legal issues with talking about covering things up.
31:52So I've started basically with just historical issues where people are covering up things that are spiritual.
32:00There is no legal boundaries around this.
32:03But the problem that I'm finding is, whenever I put videos out, I try to relate them to something modern.
32:09And so I'll take a modern situation that's very similar and see where it came from, go back to the
32:15history.
32:16Well, if you go back in the history, you find that what really happened is some doctrine was just changed
32:23or twisted just a little bit from what the Bible said or from what mainstream Christianity understood,
32:30because it was a new and exciting twist on Scripture.
32:32Well, because you've twisted Scripture, that develops into other theologies, and they build entire movements, spawn off of some of
32:41these changes, right?
32:43Well, some of those movements become very destructive, and they have all forms of abuse.
32:47The problem that I have is it gets to the point where some of the things that are being covered
32:52up, it's dangerous to talk about because of the legal issues.
32:56You can sue for talking about somebody covering up something that's illegal.
33:01So now you're entering into this dangerous territory as a podcaster.
33:05I try to stick to the history as much as possible, but how do you navigate that?
33:10How do you navigate all of the modern issues that have, like you said, systemic issues that have really came
33:18from this twisting of Scripture?
33:21Yeah, that's a good question, John.
33:23And that goes back to, I think, the beginning of the video here.
33:25I think we've been so new at this that we've probably made mistakes in that area.
33:33And it is a good point because as you dig into any of this stuff, yeah, you're finding things that
33:42people are covering up that you can't quite mention.
33:47You just can't.
33:48And so, I don't know that we have dug into those kind of issues tremendously in our videos so far.
33:59We've been dealing more with the idea of the false theologies.
34:04And of course, this is, Valerie's story is like the practical working out of those false theologies all over a
34:13woman's life, right?
34:14When you're considering, yes, I'm believing in dominion.
34:18Yes, I believe we're going to take all the power and we should take over politically.
34:22And yes, we should war in the heavenlies.
34:25And that's what we're doing.
34:26And so, therefore, God's talking to me and I'm going to be talking to you about what he says.
34:32And it's all of that.
34:34But as far as, and we've talked to you as well in the past after some of the podcasts.
34:40So, I think we're careful with that.
34:43We're careful with how far to take it.
34:46But as far as people that are saying, hey, you know, come join us because you could be special.
34:55You could be deified.
34:57You could be the tip of the arrow and all of that.
35:02The forerunner.
35:02Yeah, that's what we're speaking against right now.
35:06It's the bad theologies that create the fruit that we're seeing in the Valerie Evans story.
35:12And it's really, I think the thing about it, John, that makes it, there's something else there that's different than
35:23I think in the worldly systems, which the world obviously is dipping in with the legal issues and all that.
35:29So, that's something we have to at least pay attention to.
35:32But, you know, I sincerely am praying for these men and women to repent and turn back to Jesus.
35:40You know, I spent the morning in Jonah and, you know, I've been asking the Lord, make sure my heart
35:46isn't such that if I know you're loving and compassionate and kind,
35:49that if you get a hold of some of these men and change them or women and change their hearts,
35:55I want to be ready to welcome them into the kingdom when their fruit changes accordingly and, you know, testing
36:04the spirits and all the things.
36:05And I think that's part of it is, you know, that balance of, okay, so, yes, there are legal ramifications
36:14and also there's salvation in jeopardy here on all the sides.
36:19And so, you know, we used to talk about in the global missions world a lot, not being persecuted for
36:27your faith because you're preaching the gospel or being persecuted because you're a bad witness.
36:33And it's not really about Jesus, it's about you, you know, and so, you're calling it persecution, but it's really
36:39just you're a bad witness.
36:41And it has nothing to do with being imprisoned for preaching the gospel and bringing people Jesus.
36:47And so, that's the narrow balance and the road that I think we try and walk on, but I don't
36:52really know.
36:52I'm learning as I go.
36:54It's like a tightrope some days.
36:55I think we're being called the accuser of the brethren in some cases, so they would consider us to be
37:00persecuting them.
37:01And that's the idea, the false idea of persecution complex is, I think, what I've been calling it lately because
37:08they seem to, especially in the NAR, they seem to talk about that all the time.
37:13Like, we are so persecuted by all these men that are holding us accountable to the word of God, men
37:19and women.
37:20I guess the comment I always have is, fruit determines if you're a brethren or not, and that's a real
37:27thing.
37:28And so, only God knows the hearts, and so I pray for the hearts.
37:30And mine is the first one I pray for, John, because I know what a mess I am.
37:36And Kevin can attest to that.
37:38So, you know, it's real.
37:39It's real.
37:40Yeah, it is real.
37:42And I'm a mess, too.
37:43I have lots of things that I'm working through.
37:45And that's one of the points that I try to make often.
37:49I was friends with leadership.
37:51I was close to leadership in what I came out of.
37:54There are some really good people who are doing some really bad things while thinking they're doing some really good
37:59things.
37:59That's the irony of this.
38:01Listen, it isn't that I just want to help the people who are their subordinates.
38:06I want to help everybody that I can.
38:08And how do you help leadership whenever they have been indoctrinated to think that they do not have any accountability
38:15at all?
38:16How do you do it?
38:18And there are some people, you can take a person who would otherwise turn out really good, who is a
38:24good person, but does not know how to handle power.
38:29There are people who can start to do bad things just simply because you gave them power.
38:36My idea of the perfect world of how to fix this is don't allow this.
38:41If you're in one of these congregations, don't allow them to have unwielded power.
38:46You know, you have to have them.
38:48They have to submit to some sort of accountability.
38:51And the problem is one or two people in the congregation can't do this.
38:55It takes every single person in the congregation to stand up and say, nope, we're not going to let you
39:00do this.
39:01If you want to be accountable to God only, we're going to leave and you won't get our tithe money.
39:07Right.
39:08And that money does talk.
39:09That's bad.
39:10And that's so true, John.
39:11It's, you know, who's, is it the leaders?
39:15I talk about this often.
39:16Is it the leaders that find this niche that's out there and they go, I'm going to take control of
39:22this?
39:22Or is it the followers that are actually raising them up?
39:27And that's the big question.
39:29But bottom line is, if we're supporting their ministries, if we're giving them finances, if we're showing up at their
39:36events, and if we are applauding as they're speaking on a platform, we are definitely raising them up.
39:44And that's certainly a concern.
39:46Right.
39:46Well, and I think that's what, you know, God is very clear in Jesus through the Word and through Paul
39:52that they have a system of overseers and deacons.
39:55And there is an elder structure that God himself said, hey.
39:59And hey, anybody who has been around a group trying to even, you know, when you're at the family for
40:05Thanksgiving, trying to pick a movie to go to on the day after Thanksgiving, it's a train wreck trying to
40:10get 20 people to agree.
40:11It is a lot harder when you have a council of elders than one guy that's like, we're going to
40:16do this.
40:17That's real.
40:18And I think the temptation to just be like, you know, it's very convenient that you have this five-fold
40:23ministry where it's like, okay, it's the apostle and the prophet.
40:25Just those guys.
40:26And whatever they say goes.
40:28Yeah, that might be really a lot easier.
40:31But, and I'm not talking about the nonprofit board you have because that's driven by revenue usually.
40:37That's not the same thing as somebody who, their motivation is, how are we glorifying God and drawing people closer
40:46to the heart of Jesus according to the Word?
40:49That should be the central thing.
40:54And so, I think that's why, John, you're working for $2 an hour.
41:02Because, you know, it doesn't make a lot of money when you're just, it's like, here's the thing.
41:07And I told Kevin, we will do these videos as long as God kind of puts it on our hearts
41:11to do it.
41:12But I don't, it's not about, if only one person God has that needs to hear it, if we only
41:18did it so that Valerie Evans' story gets out there for the people that need to hear that, I'm good.
41:24Like, this is not about us.
41:27This is, you know, and that's what's cool.
41:29It's very freeing because it's like, you know, it's God's to do.
41:32God saves.
41:33God changes.
41:33And we just want to posture ourselves at the feet of Jesus and do our best to speak as he
41:40speaks, move as he moves, and let him, you know, be God.
41:45I think, yeah, the goal definitely is for, because you were talking about it before, we want the leaders to
41:54repent.
41:55We've gone to them before we started doing videos.
41:57This is why we're doing videos right now.
41:59We sat down with these guys, a lot of them.
42:03But yet we're doing this so that we can warn the sheep to come out of this, to come out
42:11of these movements.
42:11And what they're doing is it's all works-based.
42:17It doesn't look like it.
42:18It's such a clever disguise because, yeah, if you want more of Jesus, you need to come follow us because
42:26we want the deeper things.
42:27We're going into the, we are going to fast harder than anybody.
42:30We're going to pray harder than anybody.
42:33We're going to go around the world on missions harder than everybody.
42:36We're going to do all those things.
42:38We're going to do, do, do.
42:41And we never realize, wait a minute, we're going after the deeper things of God, but we're doing.
42:47God wants us to be.
42:48We're doing to get it, yes.
42:50And so that's, it's that, I've said this before, it's that carrot on the stick that they hang out there
42:58and you're just about to get it and they yank it out and set it again.
43:02And you keep going forward, yes, revival's coming, revival's coming, I've got to get it, I've got to get the
43:07carrot.
43:07And the carrot keeps disappearing because there's the revival that they're talking about is not coming.
43:15Right, right.
43:15And I think that's the thing is, here's the deal.
43:19They can only be leaders if someone's following.
43:24So if people stop following, by default, they won't be leaders anymore.
43:29And so our job, you know, we went to the leaders, people that we loved, knew, were like, hey guys,
43:34maybe you don't know.
43:35Oh, you do know?
43:36Okay, then turn and repent.
43:37Okay, you still don't want to do that?
43:39Okay.
43:39Now we have to warn the sheep.
43:41You know, I told somebody yesterday, and I use this example a lot, if I see a bus coming behind
43:46you, John, and it's going to hit you, if I love you as a brother or just a human being,
43:52I need to call out that the bus is coming and it's going to hit you.
43:56Now, whether you turn or move, that's yours.
43:59But I need to tell you, hey, John, there's a bus, it's about to hit you, it's right behind you.
44:04And then you get to choose what you do with that information.
44:07But I need to give you that information if I really love you as a person.
44:11I think that's one of the troubles that I have.
44:13I've actually tried to walk away from this several times over the past decade.
44:18I understand.
44:19I can't seem to do it because there's always somebody who needs help, and I just can't turn people away.
44:25And one of the things you mentioned, you said the carrot on the stick.
44:29Whenever you're in the business world, and especially if you've ever worked with a marketing firm or marketing agency, you
44:36understand this concept a lot better than just the average person.
44:40But in marketing, there's this idea that you give people not exactly what they need, but you give them just
44:47enough so that they want more.
44:50And that really, if you understand how that concept works, and then start thinking about what they're doing from behind
44:57the pulpits or in these conventions, it's really, they're working with a marketing agency.
45:03They almost have to be.
45:04And if not, they've learned skills of how to do it.
45:08And what happens is when you combine that with each of the other things that have been twisted just a
45:13little bit out of its context, add to this the authoritarian control, what you end up with is a movement
45:21that has so-called shepherds that aren't really shepherding.
45:25They're domineering.
45:25And how can they apply that to passages like, what is it, I think it's 1 Peter, it says, not
45:33lording over those who are entrusted to you, but instead being examples.
45:38You don't find any of these leaders in the New Apostolic Reformation being the example.
45:43They're instead being the authority.
45:44And they want to be the end-all authority, but they want to give you just enough so that you'll
45:50come back and hear them next Sunday.
45:51Yeah, it's, if you look at some of the events, we've been covering some of these conferences and conventions, whatever,
46:01it's a giant hype fest, basically.
46:06It's, hey, we're just going to hype up the crowd, we're going to get you going so that we can
46:11gain stakeholders in our, whatever our cause is, whatever our ministry is.
46:19They need stakeholders in this.
46:22And even when you consider Manifest Sons of God or Manifest Sonship, as they call it today, or even Sonship,
46:31you know, come in, come to this deeper level.
46:34Let me get the buy-in.
46:36We need stakeholders in our movement.
46:39Well, and the business thing is really critical, John, because, you know, talking about Dean Briggs, back to Valerie Evans'
46:47story,
46:47he was a business strategist, according to his bio, before he planted a church.
46:51And to that end, he was the VP of messaging and the chief strategist for IHOPKC while he was on
46:59the executive leadership team.
47:00You know, and we've talked to him a lot about strategy.
47:03And, you know, even in prayer movements and, you know, we keep going back to strategy.
47:08Strategic prayer.
47:09Yeah, I don't think that's a thing, biblically.
47:13But also, you know, when you look at somebody like a Rick Warren, Rick Warren used to say from a
47:18platform all the time, and I've heard him, you know, behind closed doors, too,
47:21Peter Drucker was one of his mentors.
47:23And Peter taught him about the three-legged stool, which you see showing up in disciple multiplication movements.
47:28So, you see this business, you know, even we were in the field in other countries, and they were, like,
47:35doing best business practices and wanting us to do research reports so that they could.
47:41And I'm like, why are we using worldly structure and strategy to flesh out what God is doing?
47:49That should be the opposite.
47:51We shouldn't be using worldly tools for the things of the Lord.
47:58That's not biblical.
48:00It talks about that in Deuteronomy a lot.
48:02Yeah, exactly.
48:03And, you know, I talked to somebody recently.
48:06We were talking about exactly that.
48:08They're teaching people not just prayer strategies but how to be more effective in your prayers.
48:14And it's so odd to me.
48:16There are passages, I think it's, what is it, Matthew?
48:19God knows what you're asking before you even ask him.
48:22Exactly.
48:22And if you have a God that is omnipotent, that knows everything, all you have to do is just seek
48:28God and he's going to answer your prayer.
48:30And especially if you apply the passages where it's like a fatherly figure.
48:34If my son comes up to me, I'm not going to determine how I answer what he needs by how
48:41strategically he asks me.
48:43In fact, I'm probably going to go above and beyond and give him something a little better than he needs
48:47just so that I can show him that I love him.
48:50And that's really, for me, that's the bottom line.
48:53And they have created a different God by employing all of these strategies.
48:58And all it comes down to is it is a really good way to make money.
49:02If you can do this type of marketing effect in your religion, get people to come back every Sunday, get
49:08them to pay a little bit more, you're going to have this massive movement.
49:12And this massive movement is a money train.
49:15And I came to the conclusion I don't like money trains.
49:19Yeah.
49:19We so agree with you on that, John.
49:22But picking up what you just said, you know, it's a different God.
49:26And we've been talking about that lately.
49:29It's as if it's almost sleight of hand, you know, and we see it in these movements like look at
49:37revival.
49:39We're going to hold that up right now.
49:41It's all about revival and all that.
49:42And then underneath, you know, they're slipping in another God.
49:47And that's what's happened, whether it's a revival, abortion.
49:50It's look at all these things.
49:52Look at these things that we're doing.
49:54Right.
49:54But the God that we're describing in these movements is different than the God of this Bible.
50:01Right.
50:02It's different because if you ask Barb, who is Kevin?
50:07You know, what are his attributes?
50:08She'll tell you exactly what they are.
50:11And if they look any different than what Barb says about me, then obviously she doesn't know me.
50:18Or I'm not talking about Kevin.
50:20Yeah, you're not talking about me.
50:21So, that's what we're seeing.
50:23They're sliding in.
50:25And obviously, this has taken years, but a different God.
50:30Well, and what you were talking about, John, is how it goes.
50:34You know, if you're talking about as a father, if your son comes to you and asks for something, you
50:39said you were going to go above and beyond.
50:41But here's my question, and this is what I've asked people in prayer movement worlds when I was sitting at
50:46tables with global leaders.
50:48So, if your son comes to you, John, and you know he's strategically manipulating and trying to manipulate you through
50:55saying certain words so he can get certain things.
50:58To get a breakthrough from you, John.
51:00Are you happy about that as someone who's trying to help him forge his character?
51:06I mean, I think that's the thing.
51:08Like, seven effective prayer, you know, strategy for prayer.
51:12I'm like, that reads more like self-help Oprah.
51:16And to me, you know, I said that in a sub stack I wrote recently that, you know, if I,
51:22you know, I was watching Lou Engel brag on stage about Brian Kim's fasting and his techniques and how frequently.
51:31And I said, well, my Bible says when you fast, go into your room and, you know, wear your ointment
51:38and wear it so people don't know.
51:39So, only your father who sees in secret what you're doing will reward you.
51:43So, I just don't know why we're bragging about, first of all, bragging is so not of the Lord in
51:48and of itself.
51:49It's such an arrogance.
51:50But to do that with things that God's like, these are precious to me because it's about me and you
51:56and our relationship and your heart.
51:59And I'm trying to forge character in you.
52:02I'm trying to make abundant, prolific, good fruit of the Spirit.
52:08And we're repurposing it for rottenness.
52:11And it's just, it's horrific.
52:13Absolutely.
52:14It is horrific.
52:16And back to the father-son example.
52:18Can you imagine my son desperately needing something and me give him a carrot and hang it on a stick?
52:24Right.
52:24And keep pulling it away.
52:25Anyway, I'm laughing, but it's really not that funny that they have taken spiritual abuse to whole new levels, in
52:33my opinion.
52:34So, in your advice, how do you fix this?
52:37Yeah, again, I think that there's ways of fixing it in the sense of the fruit that we're seeing, the
52:45bad fruit that we're seeing.
52:46As the leaders fall, you can gather around and collect and try to clean up the mess.
52:53But it goes back to us going to the desert after a buy-up KC.
52:58And the problem is, we've been saying this often, if the root is bad, John, the fruit is bad.
53:07And so, what you have is a movement and a root system underneath all these movements that's threaded into other
53:15movements.
53:16And it's incredible.
53:17So, if we're not going to lay the axe to the root, there doesn't seem to be a fix.
53:26There seems to be a cleanup process on the top level, trimming trees that are bad and trying to make
53:35them better.
53:36But the leaven is in the lump.
53:38And according to the Bible, we see this getting worse.
53:42This is the way that we're reading it.
53:44We see that Thessalonians talks about delusion.
53:47Jesus talks about false Christ coming.
53:50And these things are going to get worse.
53:52It's not for us to sit back and go, there's nothing we can do.
53:56No, let's call out believers out of this.
53:58Let's continue to preach the gospel.
54:01Let's continue to try to clean up the mess.
54:04But it seems like it's going to get worse.
54:06Well, and even as it gets worse, you know, God is still on the throne.
54:11He's still sovereign.
54:11And I think the most important thing is this Bible.
54:16I can't bring something from nothing.
54:20If I don't have the word hidden in my heart, if I don't even know what God is like, his
54:26character, his heart, because I don't even know the Bible, then I can't discern properly what I'm hearing.
54:34Is it the taco that I had for dinner that gave me the dream, or is the Lord speaking, and
54:41how would I know the difference, and is there a difference?
54:45And I think that's one of the issues is, it is, as much as I, you know, we are calling
54:52out leaders that are people that we know and holding ourselves accountable, it is everyone's responsibility as a sheep to
54:59feed themselves.
55:00Because it's about the relationship with the God of the Bible, with Jesus Christ.
55:06And I can't bring something from nothing.
55:10And, you know, I've talked to people who were Chinese prisoners in China, in the house church movement, and some
55:17of them talk about how when they went in there, some of them, it was like, you know, the seminary
55:21of the Holy Spirit, because we just preached, and nobody, you know, nobody was arresting us, because what could they
55:27do to us?
55:27We're already in jail. But there were some that were lamenting, because, you know, you can't, you can't preach from
55:33nothing. So, some of them were like, we didn't, we didn't have enough hidden in our hearts, so we got
55:38in there, and we didn't make the most of that opportunity, because we didn't, we didn't know what it was.
55:44And I think that there is an accountability to the sheep to go, okay, and I don't, I'm not talking
55:50about you're responsible for the abuse that happened. That is a whole other conversation, and that is not what I
55:55mean. I'm talking about just, if all I'm getting is what my pastor, the regurgitation of my pastor's time with
56:03the Lord, hoping that he's a pastor that's biblically sound, once a week for an hour, and that's my relationship
56:11with God, and then I do whatever else I want during the week.
56:14Then, yeah, I'm going to be duped. You know, and when Jesus talks about staying alert, staying, you know, keep
56:22alert, pay attention, pay attention. And the biggest thing about it is, this is the God, this is God's story.
56:32This isn't my story. It's not about my life. It's about Jesus Christ, and who he is, and what he
56:39did. And so, I want to know him. I want to love him. I want to serve him.
56:44Whether people are watching or not, that's the greatest call in my heart, is I want him to know me,
56:52and I want to know him, and by his grace, I want him to change my heart so I look
56:57like him a little bit more today than I did yesterday.
56:59Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You
57:03can find us at william-branum.org and Pellegrino Walk YouTube channel.
57:08For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion,
57:12From Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
57:44For more information, you can find us at william-branum.org.
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