Many growing businesses experience operational chaos. But what if that chaos is actually a signal that your company is expanding faster than your systems can handle?
In this episode of The Mason Duchatschek Show, Mason Duchatschek sits down with Javier Lozano, Jr. to explore how leaders can transform operational chaos into structured, scalable growth.
Javier explains why many organizations struggle when departments operate in silos, why random acts of marketing destroy momentum, and how leaders can conduct a practical go-to-market audit to identify the real bottlenecks inside their sales and marketing systems.
You will learn how to build systems that support predictable growth while still allowing creativity, experimentation, and innovation inside your organization.
If you're a CEO, founder, or business leader trying to scale your company without losing control of operations, this conversation offers practical insights you can implement immediately.
What You'll Learn
• Why operational chaos often appears during healthy business growth
• How to conduct a simple go-to-market audit
• The biggest mistake companies make with marketing strategy
• Why optimizing one bottleneck can unlock massive growth
• How structure actually creates more room for creativity
• The key metrics leaders should monitor for smarter decision making
• How to listen to the market instead of guessing what customers want
• Why shipping at 70% completion often beats waiting for perfection
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Operational Chaos
01:37 Chaos vs. Healthy Growth
03:59 Conducting a Go-to-Market Audit
07:16 Optimizing Sales Processes
09:36 Building Systems for Predictable Growth
13:14 Structure vs. Creativity
17:15 Avoiding Random Acts of Marketing
21:18 Overcoming Resistance to Change
25:54 Key Metrics for Success
27:42 Taking Action Against Chaos
29:20 Final Advice for Business Owners
Connect with Mason Duchatschek
https://masonduchatschek.com/
https://workforcealchemy.com/
Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ReverseRiskConsulting
Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/workforcealchemy/
X (Twitter)
https://x.com/WorkAlchemist
Rumble
https://rumble.com/user/WorkforceAlchemy
Dailymotion
https://www.dailymotion.com/WorkforceAlchemy
YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@WorkforceAlchemist
#Leadership
#BusinessGrowth
#Entrepreneurship
#MarketingStrategy
#SalesStrategy
#BusinessSystems
#ScalingBusiness
#CEOAdvice
#BusinessPodcast
In this episode of The Mason Duchatschek Show, Mason Duchatschek sits down with Javier Lozano, Jr. to explore how leaders can transform operational chaos into structured, scalable growth.
Javier explains why many organizations struggle when departments operate in silos, why random acts of marketing destroy momentum, and how leaders can conduct a practical go-to-market audit to identify the real bottlenecks inside their sales and marketing systems.
You will learn how to build systems that support predictable growth while still allowing creativity, experimentation, and innovation inside your organization.
If you're a CEO, founder, or business leader trying to scale your company without losing control of operations, this conversation offers practical insights you can implement immediately.
What You'll Learn
• Why operational chaos often appears during healthy business growth
• How to conduct a simple go-to-market audit
• The biggest mistake companies make with marketing strategy
• Why optimizing one bottleneck can unlock massive growth
• How structure actually creates more room for creativity
• The key metrics leaders should monitor for smarter decision making
• How to listen to the market instead of guessing what customers want
• Why shipping at 70% completion often beats waiting for perfection
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Operational Chaos
01:37 Chaos vs. Healthy Growth
03:59 Conducting a Go-to-Market Audit
07:16 Optimizing Sales Processes
09:36 Building Systems for Predictable Growth
13:14 Structure vs. Creativity
17:15 Avoiding Random Acts of Marketing
21:18 Overcoming Resistance to Change
25:54 Key Metrics for Success
27:42 Taking Action Against Chaos
29:20 Final Advice for Business Owners
Connect with Mason Duchatschek
https://masonduchatschek.com/
https://workforcealchemy.com/
https://www.facebook.com/ReverseRiskConsulting
https://www.instagram.com/workforcealchemy/
X (Twitter)
https://x.com/WorkAlchemist
Rumble
https://rumble.com/user/WorkforceAlchemy
Dailymotion
https://www.dailymotion.com/WorkforceAlchemy
YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@WorkforceAlchemist
#Leadership
#BusinessGrowth
#Entrepreneurship
#MarketingStrategy
#SalesStrategy
#BusinessSystems
#ScalingBusiness
#CEOAdvice
#BusinessPodcast
Category
🛠️
LifestyleTranscript
00:05Welcome to the Mason Dukacek Show.
00:08This episode is brought to you by Workforce Alchemy,
00:11helping leaders improve hiring, engagement, and retention
00:14while uncovering people-related profit leaks
00:17hidden in everyday operations.
00:20Today's guest is someone I invited very intentionally
00:23because his work speaks directly to a challenge
00:26that many business owners and CEOs face
00:29but rarely named.
00:32Javier Lozano helps founder-led and CEO-led companies
00:37turn operational chaos into structure
00:40that supports predictable growth.
00:43He's the founder of Boulder Media Company
00:46and brings more than 20 years of experience
00:48leading sales and marketing for B2B organizations.
00:52He works as a fractional CMO and CRO
00:57stepping into complex environments where effort is high
01:01but results are inconsistent
01:02and helping leadership teams build disciplined,
01:06repeatable growth systems.
01:08I'm super happy to have you on today.
01:10Thanks for joining me.
01:12Thanks, Mason.
01:12I really appreciate this opportunity.
01:13I think we're going to have some fun here.
01:15I do too.
01:16So when business leaders say things or feel chaotic,
01:20when business leaders say that things feel chaotic,
01:23what does that usually look like behind the scenes?
01:27And how do you diagnose the difference between,
01:30how do I say maybe, healthy growth tension
01:33and true operational chaos?
01:36Well, I will say that on the latter part,
01:39I think it's all healthy.
01:40I think it's important to know
01:41that when you're going through growth,
01:43that there has to be some sort of chaotic moments
01:45and feelings because then you're not going to know
01:47where to put your attention at.
01:49And so I think it's part of the game.
01:53It's part of the process of running a business
01:55and starting a business.
01:56And so usually what I see when CEOs or founders
02:00have chaotic experiences in their business,
02:04it's going to be a lot of different stuff
02:06that's fragmented.
02:07One of them is that all the department
02:08or let's just call it departments in quotation marks
02:11are all kind of operating in silos.
02:13So they all kind of do their own thing.
02:15I mean, they're all kind of doing,
02:16you know, whatever they're kind of doing there,
02:18like operations does their stuff,
02:20marketing does their stuff,
02:21sales does their stuff.
02:22There's no kind of collaboration
02:23on building a go-to-market motion
02:26that's sustainable for the entire organization.
02:29Another piece that I see sometimes too
02:31is it's going to be really like
02:33they're trying too many different things.
02:35They're trying too many strategies.
02:37They're trying to go after too many ICPs.
02:39Their audience is too broad.
02:41They're going and doing a shotgun approach
02:43versus the very narrow kind of like
02:45focusing on one specific target.
02:47And so they always kind of say,
02:49or I hear these kind of terms is like,
02:51well, it just seems like nothing's really sticking
02:53or we can't really tell our story
02:56or like no one really understands
02:57what we sell
02:58or it's really confusing and complicated.
03:01So I would say that's the other part
03:02of the chaotic piece of it
03:04because what happens is that
03:06sales doesn't really know what to say.
03:09Operations is kind of sitting there
03:10probably like twiddling their thumbs
03:11in a sense of like,
03:12when are we going to start getting
03:13some business coming in?
03:14And marketing is trying to like figure out
03:16like, all right, how do I feed sales?
03:18How do I tell a story?
03:19How do I make my CEO happy?
03:22You know, like,
03:23and that's where a lot of that stuff
03:24kind of becomes chaotic.
03:25So it's not really one thing of like,
03:27pipeline is not working
03:28or we're not getting any leads.
03:30Like, I mean, that's chaotic as well too.
03:32But that's kind of where I see,
03:34you see that as like,
03:35they have traction.
03:36It's just not really organized.
03:38I see the same stuff on a regular basis.
03:41I don't think that what you're describing
03:43is uncommon.
03:44I think.
03:45No, I know.
03:46It's especially now
03:47because you've got all this content out there
03:49and all these people say,
03:50hey, try this, try that.
03:51And it's shiny new object syndrome.
03:52So in your experience,
03:54what is the first,
03:56oh, I'd say,
03:57what's the first step
03:58in cleaning up the chaos?
03:59It's not to fix everything.
04:01It's to step back
04:02and see what is working,
04:04see what isn't working
04:05and take an analysis.
04:07You know,
04:07when I go in with engagements
04:09with clients,
04:10I always do what's called
04:11a go-to-market audit.
04:12I basically look at what's going on.
04:14Like I audit from their website.
04:16I audit their positioning strategy.
04:18I audit their messaging.
04:19And that's what I would do internally
04:21if I was coming in
04:22as an in-house employee.
04:23And I did that in my last role
04:24as well, too,
04:25is I want to audit everything.
04:27Like I know a lot of CMOs are like,
04:28well, we need to change the website.
04:31Don't touch the website.
04:32Like just leave the website as it is
04:33because I'm sure
04:34there's other things
04:35that are more chaotic
04:36and crazy going on
04:37than just the website.
04:38I wouldn't even,
04:39I wouldn't touch a lot of stuff.
04:41I would start analyzing
04:42and see more of the traction
04:43is going on.
04:44I would start interviewing sales teams
04:46and be like,
04:46hey,
04:47whenever you're going through
04:48the sales process,
04:50you know,
04:50what type of leads
04:50are you closing really well?
04:52Tell me that experience
04:53and walk me through that.
04:55And what are the ones
04:56that are like,
04:56you know,
04:57two minutes into the conversation,
04:58this is like a waste of your time,
05:00but you still got to do it.
05:01And like,
05:02tell me,
05:02you know,
05:02how that looks like.
05:04And then I want to say that,
05:05but the co-author
05:06of my first book,
05:07he retired,
05:08but co-author of my first book
05:09was Sales Utopia.
05:10His name is Alan Minster.
05:11And he could do this
05:13with a smile
05:14and he could pull it off,
05:15but he would literally
05:15tell people like,
05:17hey,
05:17if this isn't a fit for you
05:19and you feel a no coming on,
05:21just tell me.
05:21I'm a big boy.
05:23It's not going to hurt my feelings.
05:23And frankly,
05:24I don't need the practice
05:25that you tell people.
05:27And he would get out
05:28of those meetings quickly.
05:31And anyway,
05:32go ahead though.
05:32No,
05:32that's huge
05:33because that's,
05:35I mean,
05:35sometimes just your instincts
05:36are going to be right
05:37in those instances.
05:38And so,
05:39you know,
05:40my whole point is,
05:41is that I want to take
05:42an audit of everything.
05:43And that's exactly
05:44what I did
05:45at my last in-house role
05:46is I came in
05:47and I was looking
05:48at all the stuff
05:48that was going on.
05:49We were generating
05:50two,
05:513,000 leads.
05:52We were paying
05:53like two,
05:53three,
05:54four bucks a lead.
05:55Most companies like,
05:56oh,
05:56that's amazing.
05:57You know,
05:57$2 leads.
05:58Like,
05:58let's,
05:58you know,
05:59put our hands up
05:59in the air.
06:00And then you start
06:01lifting the,
06:02you know,
06:02look underneath the hood
06:03and you're like,
06:03okay,
06:03wait a second.
06:04How many of these
06:05are we closing?
06:06You know,
06:06like how many of these
06:07people are like,
06:08is sales chasing?
06:09And it's not even
06:10like a legitimate
06:14unveiling some
06:14of this stuff.
06:15And like a great
06:15example is,
06:16is that for every
06:17100 leads we were
06:18generating,
06:19about 15 of those
06:20were hitting our ICP.
06:21So we were spending
06:2285 of those
06:24with all these ad dollars
06:25and they were doing
06:26nothing for us.
06:27So then I started
06:28analyzing where
06:28these good ones
06:29were coming from.
06:30They were coming from
06:30Meta.
06:31And so what we did
06:32is we focused on
06:33basically moving
06:34our ad budget
06:35from Google to Meta.
06:37And that not only
06:38increased like our
06:39higher ICP,
06:40but then all of a sudden
06:40our sales team
06:41was actually going
06:42after people that
06:42were really going to
06:43be buyers.
06:44Eventually we got
06:44to the point where
06:45we got for every
06:46100 leads,
06:4695 of them were
06:47hitting our ICP.
06:48Where I'm coming
06:49from with this is that
06:50I didn't come to
06:51that conclusion on
06:52day one.
06:52I came to that
06:53conclusion on like
06:54day 30,
06:55day 45,
06:56day 60.
06:57And it's not that
06:58I was slow to it.
06:59It's that I was
06:59absorbing different
07:00things that was
07:01working and not
07:01working.
07:02And really that's
07:03the most important
07:04part.
07:04It's not to go in
07:05there and change
07:05everything.
07:06It's to really
07:06double down what
07:07you rock in and
07:09then say,
07:09hey, we're saying
07:10no to this because
07:11this is not
07:12resourceful.
07:13It's unreasonable.
07:15It's not going to
07:16help us, etc.
07:17You're reminding me
07:17of a story, a buddy
07:19of mine.
07:20And this was back
07:21in the day when
07:21people still
07:23advertised for job
07:24openings using the
07:25newspaper.
07:26And he was in a
07:27room full of HR
07:29directors.
07:29And he ran a
07:31company that
07:33provided online
07:35job board for
07:36lack of better
07:37explanation.
07:38And he's got
07:39hundreds of HR
07:40directors in the
07:41room and he says,
07:41what's the worst
07:42thing that can
07:42happen if you put
07:43an ad in the
07:44paper for a job
07:45opening?
07:46Almost every
07:46single one of them
07:47said, nobody
07:48responds.
07:50And you could
07:50understand why
07:51they would say
07:51that because they
07:52just spent their
07:53money on advertising
07:53and didn't get any
07:54response, just like
07:55a marketing group
07:56could spend money
07:57on ads and you
07:58don't get any
07:58response.
07:59He goes, no,
08:00that's the second
08:01worst thing that
08:02can happen.
08:03And everybody's
08:03like, well, what's
08:04worse than spending
08:05money on ads and
08:06not getting any
08:06responses?
08:07He's getting a
08:08whole bunch of
08:08responses from
08:09people who aren't
08:10qualified.
08:10Yep.
08:11Because that sucks
08:12up all of your
08:13resources and time
08:14to produce an
08:15outcome that is
08:16unusable, i.e.
08:17we can't use any
08:18of these candidates.
08:19Same thing with
08:19sales leads.
08:20And that's why I
08:21really like what
08:21you're saying about
08:22the, you know,
08:24audits and getting
08:25some of these
08:26people in different
08:26silos to talk to
08:27each other because
08:29that way, because
08:30marketing can sit
08:31there and say, oh,
08:31we're doing a great
08:32job.
08:32Look at all these
08:33leads we're getting
08:33and then sales says,
08:34well, yeah, but it's
08:36sucking up all of our
08:37time and we're not,
08:38we don't have anything
08:38to show for it.
08:39And we've got numbers
08:40to hit that we're not
08:41hitting.
08:42Exactly.
08:43And now you can
08:44collaborate instead of
08:47direct blame and
08:48point fingers.
08:48And that's one of the
08:50reasons why I really
08:51believe that marketing
08:51needs to own some sort
08:53of revenue number, not
08:54necessarily like it's
08:55their number, but they
08:57need to be influencing
08:58it in one way, shape
08:59or form.
08:59And so it's important
09:01that like marketing
09:02sees their influence
09:04further down pipeline
09:05versus at the top,
09:07you know?
09:07And so that's where,
09:09and you can do that
09:10by pushing brand.
09:11You can do that by
09:12pushing demand.
09:13It doesn't really
09:13matter what direction
09:14or what lever you're
09:16pulling, but like
09:17marketing needs to be
09:18influencing revenue in
09:19any kind of direction.
09:20And it could be down
09:22the road six months
09:23from now, or it can be
09:23like tomorrow.
09:24Right.
09:25So how do you help
09:27leaders move from
09:28reacting to problems
09:29day to day and shift
09:31into building systems
09:32that prevent those
09:34problems from
09:35reoccurring?
09:36So once we kind of
09:37do that audit and we,
09:38I look at everything,
09:39I want to see where
09:41are we getting hung up?
09:43Like where are we
09:44spending a lot of our
09:44time?
09:45You know, are we
09:45spending time sending
09:46out personalized emails?
09:48Are we spending time,
09:49you know, on these
09:51things?
09:51Like where could we
09:52leverage automation
09:53and where can we,
09:55you know, say, okay,
09:56we're going to, we're
09:56going to do this
09:57manually because it's a,
09:58it's a high touch,
09:59high conversion.
10:00Like that makes sense.
10:01And so that's where I
10:03want to kind of find
10:04where we can kind of
10:04like take, give back
10:06time to other people.
10:07So an example is,
10:09is that we had a
10:10small sales team and
10:12we had at the time
10:13like two or three
10:13people, I believe.
10:15And on average, they
10:16were doing like 20,
10:17maybe 30 deals a month,
10:18but we were getting
10:19a slew of leads
10:20coming in, but they
10:21can't, you know,
10:22contact every single
10:23one of those all the
10:23time.
10:24So what we did is we
10:25created a way of
10:27sending out automated
10:28emails and text
10:29messages coming from
10:30their actual Gmail
10:32inbox versus like a
10:33marketing email that
10:34does an inbox
10:35correctly.
10:36This is like, is
10:37like they said, Hey
10:37Tom, I saw that
10:38you're interested in
10:38X, Y, and Z, you
10:40know, then that all
10:41of a sudden, if they
10:42reply back, it's a
10:43hand raiser.
10:44So instead of them
10:45having a call to see
10:46if they're interested
10:47or catch them at the
10:48right moment, that
10:49was going out
10:49automated and it
10:51was very personal.
10:52It wasn't a generic,
10:54you know, like, hello
10:55Thomas, you know, it
10:56was very personal.
10:57That sort of stuff.
10:58Insert name here.
11:00Hello.
11:00Exactly.
11:01Where the token
11:01wasn't done correctly,
11:03you know, and, and,
11:04and so like, and I
11:05know this doesn't seem
11:05like it's like, well,
11:06this is not
11:07groundbreaking, Javier.
11:08Well, here's the
11:08difference.
11:09Most companies, when
11:10they capture a lead,
11:11they send out a
11:12marketing email and
11:13that's kind of like a
11:14standard practice that
11:16inboxes very low rate.
11:17It's going to probably
11:18hit spam filters.
11:19It's going to probably
11:20not, you know, hit
11:20correctly.
11:21If you're able to send
11:22out an automated sales
11:24based email, like a
11:24transactional email, like
11:25you, so like you sent
11:26me an email the other
11:27day to kind of go over
11:28what we're going to
11:29discuss.
11:29If you were able to
11:30send that automatically,
11:32that's going to inbox
11:33higher.
11:34And so what we realized
11:35is that when we did
11:35that, we were getting
11:36a 40 to 50% open rate.
11:38And so I'm bringing
11:39this up because I was
11:41saying, okay, how can
11:43I give my sales team
11:44more time to call
11:45the right people
11:46versus emailing
11:47everybody, calling
11:48everybody and treating
11:50everybody as equal.
11:51And really what this
11:52did is that it
11:53basically said, okay,
11:53I'm going to shift
11:54time here and anyone
11:56that raises their
11:56hand, I'll call those
11:57people.
11:58And then once I've
11:59done all that, then
12:00I can put my attention
12:01to the others.
12:02And so I'm going to
12:03piggyback on that.
12:05I interviewed a guy
12:06who's named Alan
12:08No, spelled NGO,
12:10digital solopreneur,
12:11I think it was.
12:11And he gave me a
12:12quote that I've, that
12:14really rung true because
12:15I listened to how you
12:16describe how sales
12:19reps are going to
12:19spend their time with
12:20whether, whether it's
12:22just responding with
12:22an email or there's
12:23personal call.
12:24He said, you treat
12:26everybody fairly, but
12:29not equally.
12:30Yes.
12:31Because some, some
12:32prospects are require
12:34much more time and
12:36have a much bigger
12:36payoff.
12:37You treat them
12:37everybody fairly, but
12:39someone who is a, I
12:41would say unqualified
12:42in terms of can make a
12:43decision or can pay for
12:44it right now, they may
12:46be able to be qualified
12:47to pay for your service
12:48later, but right now
12:49they may not be ready
12:51to do business with
12:51you simply because they
12:52can't afford it.
12:53Not that they don't
12:53want to, or they're not
12:54interested, but you
12:55treat them fairly and
12:56you provide them with
12:57some resources, whatnot
12:58that can help them.
12:59And when they get
12:59there, then you're,
13:01you'll, you'll be the
13:01first one they think
13:02of, but what you're
13:03talking about, I just
13:04for those listening that
13:05didn't catch that
13:06episode, this, it's
13:07hand in glove with what
13:08I hear you talking
13:09about and what I hear
13:10you saying.
13:10Treat everybody
13:11fairly, but not
13:12equally.
13:13And what you're
13:13talking about is
13:14building systems that
13:15kind of sort, Hey,
13:16sales team, people at
13:18this level, this is how
13:19we respond and we can
13:20leverage automation.
13:21Here's prospects at a
13:23higher level.
13:23They require phone
13:24calls.
13:25It's prospects at a
13:25higher level.
13:26They may require
13:27invitations to lunch or
13:29dinner or special events
13:30or things like that.
13:31And that's exactly it.
13:33And so once you kind of
13:34build like that piece of
13:35the puzzle or that piece
13:36of the engine, it's just
13:37about measuring.
13:38It's not necessarily
13:39measuring back like this
13:40is how much, you know,
13:41John got back in his
13:42day.
13:42You know, it has
13:43nothing to do with
13:44that.
13:44It's like, Hey, we were
13:45able to start pushing
13:47these mini leads through
13:48and they converted at
13:49this rate.
13:50And then you start
13:51tracking that.
13:52And then essentially it's
13:53just like showing to the
13:55founder or CEO be like,
13:56this is what our system
13:57has created.
13:57And this is how we're
13:58able to start creating a
14:00repeatable, scalable
14:01system that allows us to
14:03grow and where we can put
14:05one dollar in and eight
14:06dollars back.
14:07You know, it basically
14:08got to the point where
14:09when we were running this
14:10strategy, we were getting
14:11roughly a return on our
14:13ad spend, I would say
14:14anywhere from six to
14:15eight, which is insane.
14:17You know, I would say on
14:18really good campaigns that
14:19we would launch
14:20occasionally, it was as
14:21high as 15.
14:21Where I'm coming from
14:22with this is that it's
14:24not going to be one thing
14:25is going to work and it's
14:26going to fix everything.
14:27It's like taking one piece
14:29that, you know, is a big
14:30bottleneck and seeing where
14:31you can find leverage to
14:33help you automate and then
14:34to help make your team
14:35just augment their
14:37abilities of adjusting or
14:39going after the right
14:40kind of clients.
14:41And so that's kind of
14:42where I see the growth for
14:45just creating more of that
14:46predictable scalability.
14:48I'm going to, I'm really
14:49enjoying this conversation
14:50because you're making me
14:51think about some things
14:52that I hope is helpful to
14:54those that are listening.
14:55But when you, when you talk
14:56about things that you can
14:57measure and you, and, and
15:00you talk about having
15:02different departments speak
15:03to each other, I know
15:05there are companies
15:06listening, people listening
15:07can say, oh yeah, we need
15:08to have the metrics.
15:08We need to measure this
15:09stuff.
15:10But if they don't have
15:10people talking, I can give
15:11a very personal example.
15:13I don't know if it's
15:14happened to you.
15:15I hope it hasn't, but it's
15:16happened to me on more than
15:17one occasion where I will
15:18call customer service and I
15:20will have a complex problem
15:23and I can't get to a live
15:24person.
15:24When I do get to a live
15:25person, I can tell that
15:27they are being evaluated
15:29because it says, hey, will
15:30you stick around after this
15:31call to give us an
15:32evaluation?
15:34And so I know that metrics
15:36are in place and systems
15:37are in place and there's a
15:39boss somewhere looking at
15:40the numbers to say, how
15:41long did you spend on this
15:43call?
15:44And were they satisfied?
15:46And I have been on calls
15:47that were complex problems
15:49and it wasn't going to get
15:50taken care of quickly.
15:51And they just dumped.
15:54Knowing that I'm going to
15:55get stuck in the queue
15:56again, I'm never going to
15:57get them again, I'm not
15:58going to get to give a bad
15:59review and I'm fair enough
16:01that I would never give
16:01another person a bad
16:03review based on that
16:03experience.
16:04So the company's sitting
16:05there getting to think,
16:06wow, look how efficient
16:07this person is.
16:08Well, heck, if they're
16:09dumping off all of the
16:10complex problems and
16:11they're making prospects
16:12and customers mad, sales
16:14might want to know about
16:15that.
16:15Marketing might want to
16:16know about that.
16:17So while I guess what I
16:19see is multiple things,
16:21multiple topics,
16:21where you're talking
16:22about, again, the
16:24importance of all of
16:26these different groups
16:26communicating and working
16:28together instead of
16:29customer servicing, we do
16:30customer service,
16:31marketing, we do
16:32marketing, sales, they're
16:33all part of the customer
16:34journey.
16:35Exactly.
16:36And yes, metrics are
16:37important and they
16:39should be in place.
16:40However, in a siloed
16:42environment, people can
16:43get away with nonsense
16:44like that and mistreating
16:45in this case, I was a
16:47customer, past tense.
16:48I was a customer and I
16:50could get mistreated and
16:51I was and it's happened
16:52on more than one
16:52occasion.
16:53Yep.
16:55But in organizations
16:56where like what you're
16:57talking about, where
16:58there is communication
16:59among the silos and
17:00they are instead of
17:01being siloed, but they
17:02are looking at their
17:03organization as different
17:05parts of the customer
17:06journey that they work
17:07together to deliver.
17:07And obviously you can
17:08have metrics in between.
17:09I really think that's the
17:10sweet spot and that's
17:11easier said than done.
17:13Exactly.
17:13Yeah, 100%.
17:14I totally agree.
17:15So what are some of
17:16the most common random
17:18acts of marketing or
17:19activity traps that you
17:20see companies falling
17:21into when structures
17:22missing?
17:23Oh gosh, I come across
17:25all the time.
17:25I mean, like it's I had
17:27one engagement where
17:28someone's like, hey,
17:29we're going to start
17:30doing SEO and that's
17:31going to really help
17:32us.
17:33And I sit back and I'm
17:34like, so SEO is going
17:35to help solve the
17:36problem of lead
17:37quality or like more
17:39leads.
17:39Yes, that's what we're
17:41missing.
17:41It's like, interesting.
17:42I didn't know that.
17:43Or it's I heard so and
17:45so is running ads.
17:46My friend is running
17:47ads on meta and it's
17:48doing really well.
17:49We're going to do the
17:50same thing.
17:51That's that's our that's
17:52our strategy.
17:52OK, that's great.
17:54And so what it what it
17:55is, is that they're
17:56picking tactics and
17:58they're making them
17:58strategic.
17:59And so I'm not saying
18:00that SEO doesn't work.
18:02I'm not saying that
18:02paid doesn't work.
18:04I'm not saying that
18:04organic content doesn't
18:06work like they all work
18:07in their own right ways.
18:09You know, they're
18:09very good.
18:10But those are the random
18:12acts of marketing where
18:13they're like, I saw
18:14someone doing this or
18:15I heard this on a
18:16podcast and hopefully
18:18someone doesn't take
18:19this podcast and say,
18:20I'm going to do I heard
18:21this in this podcast and
18:22I'm going to do what he
18:22just said.
18:23Like you want to do
18:24that, but you've got to
18:25also take like I'm going
18:26to say this again, take a
18:27step back and look at it
18:28from a very holistic
18:29point of view.
18:30And what is the ultimate
18:31goal?
18:31So instead of saying,
18:32you know, these random
18:33acts of marketing of what
18:34you're just going to be
18:34doing, what are we
18:35trying to achieve, you
18:37know, and just work your
18:38way backwards from there.
18:39So like, yes, I know
18:40we're trying to get more
18:41sales.
18:41Like, yes, we all
18:42understand that's why
18:43we're running a business,
18:44but let's get deeper into
18:45this.
18:45Like what kind of sales are
18:47we trying to get?
18:47What kind of customers are
18:49we trying to put into our
18:50pipeline?
18:50Like, what does that look
18:52like?
18:52Okay, great.
18:53Now that we have figured
18:54out the, the kind of
18:56customers that we're
18:56wanting, like where do
18:57they typically hang out?
18:58Are they usually on this
18:59platform?
19:00Are they usually like this?
19:01Like, where can we find
19:02them?
19:02Okay, excellent.
19:03Now we have an idea where
19:04they're hanging out.
19:05Now, what resonates with
19:07them?
19:07Like what's, what are their
19:08pain points?
19:08What pisses them off every
19:10time they see something
19:11like this or, and like,
19:12and then, and then, and
19:13how can we agitate that?
19:15So then they, they want to
19:16take action.
19:16They're like, you can't do
19:17this.
19:17We can't let this ever
19:18happen.
19:19And so then how do you
19:20provide a solution for
19:21them?
19:22That's going to solve that
19:22problem that they're
19:23facing.
19:24But what I'm getting to is
19:25you're working yourself
19:26backwards on this whole
19:27thing, as opposed to like,
19:28we just need more revenue.
19:30I mean, that's like saying,
19:31you know, if you're a
19:32Cleveland Browns fan, I'm
19:33sorry to say this, but it's
19:34like saying the Cleveland
19:34Browns are going to go win
19:35the Super Bowl next year.
19:37You're like, that's not
19:37what their goal is.
19:38Like, maybe we should just
19:39be like, Hey, you know
19:40what?
19:40We should just have a
19:41winning record.
19:41Let's just go for a
19:42winning record.
19:43And we, we were moving
19:45progress into a certain
19:46direction.
19:47Am I saying, you know,
19:49revenue is not a, is a
19:50bad goal.
19:51No, but it's like how we
19:52generate that revenue is
19:53really important.
19:54Like, for example, you
19:55might say, instead of I
19:56want more leads, no, I
19:58want to know how I can
19:59attract more of our exact
20:01ideal customers and
20:03actually repel the wrong
20:04ones.
20:05Correct.
20:05And that's, that's
20:07huge.
20:07Like that's, it may seem
20:08as though it's like, well,
20:09that's just, that doesn't
20:10really resonate to
20:11revenue.
20:11Well, no, it does.
20:12If you have all these
20:13other systems lined up
20:14correctly, if you, if you
20:16have your pipeline, you
20:17know, built out where
20:18when the lead comes in,
20:19they get this kind of
20:20messaging and they get
20:21this kind of contact.
20:22And if nothing happens
20:23after X amount of days,
20:24they either get recycled
20:25or they get put into
20:26another thing, but
20:27they're always getting
20:28touched in one way.
20:29Something is going on.
20:30It's just not like a
20:31lead dying on a vine.
20:32There is a process behind
20:33this entire journey.
20:34And we all know that
20:36not every lead is going
20:37to convert as soon as
20:37they come in because
20:38they can buy three months
20:39from now, they can buy
20:4012 months from now, but
20:41it doesn't mean they
20:41were a bad lead.
20:42It was just timing.
20:43And so you're building
20:44this out for like the
20:46long play.
20:47You're not building it
20:47out for just today.
20:48You're building it out
20:49for a year from now.
20:51Right.
20:52So how do you bring
20:53structure to organizations?
20:56Because I'm trying to
20:57imagine that there's got
20:58to be some resistance.
20:59There's always resistance
21:00to change, but the
21:01resistance like, well, hey,
21:03if we do all this, it's
21:03really going to slow the
21:04business down.
21:06How do you how do you
21:07respond to people who
21:08would have that concern
21:09that, well, what we're
21:10doing right now, we've
21:11got to keep up the
21:11momentum.
21:12We've got to keep
21:13driving forward.
21:14We don't really have
21:15time to slow down for
21:16this structure stuff.
21:18Yeah.
21:19So really, it's not
21:21slowing down.
21:21All you're doing is
21:22you're doubling down on
21:23what's working and then
21:25you're essentially creating
21:26a strategy around that
21:28and then you're removing
21:29the things that isn't
21:30working.
21:30So it doesn't mean that
21:31you stop everything and
21:33then you just like, OK,
21:34we're going to start from
21:35zero again.
21:35No, like if let's just
21:37say like you have, I
21:38don't know, three go to
21:39market motions that are
21:40working very well and one
21:41of them is crushing it.
21:42The other two is kind of
21:43like, it's OK.
21:44We're not going to change
21:46one.
21:46We're just going to
21:47leave that as is right
21:48now and we might like
21:50tweak things at
21:51different stages, but
21:52we're just going to
21:52kind of keep writing
21:53that and try to see
21:54how we can optimize,
21:56you know, go to market
21:57one, you know, and
21:58then maybe two and
21:59three, we might say,
22:00OK, we can't focus on
22:01both of them.
22:02Let's focus on one of
22:03these two that we think
22:04that we can probably
22:04create some sort of
22:05structure around it.
22:06So I don't necessarily
22:08think it's a it's
22:08slowing down.
22:09It's more of
22:10optimization and
22:11optimization doesn't
22:13necessarily mean you
22:14stop everything.
22:15Optimization just says
22:16that you keep
22:16evaluating pipeline.
22:18You keep evaluating
22:19how you're what
22:20you've designed is
22:20working and then you
22:21start creating metrics
22:23to measure from that.
22:24So like you say, hey,
22:25we're going to do this.
22:26We haven't changed a
22:26whole bunch.
22:27We're going to run this
22:27for three months.
22:28We're going to measure
22:28it.
22:29OK, and we're
22:30anticipating that this
22:31is going to happen.
22:32Like, you know, it's
22:33going to probably increase
22:34our close rate by 20%.
22:35This is what we're
22:35hoping for by us doing
22:37better emails and
22:39better targeting and,
22:40you know, something else
22:41better.
22:41Right.
22:42And we believe that
22:43by doing this, our
22:44close rate is going to
22:45increase and we're
22:45going to have a higher
22:46quality of like SQLs as
22:48an example.
22:48And we measure that
22:49and we could be wrong.
22:51It could be completely
22:52like, well, didn't work.
22:53You know, let's go back
22:54to the drawing board or
22:55it could be like,
22:55interesting when we did
22:57this, this and this,
22:58this increase.
22:59OK, perfect.
22:59All right.
23:00So now how do we grow
23:01that and make it more
23:02predictable again?
23:03How do we continue to
23:04add more fuel to that
23:05fire?
23:05So when leaders kind
23:07of bring that up, it's
23:08just reinforcing like
23:09we're not stopping
23:10what's working.
23:11We're just optimizing
23:12the areas that make
23:13the most sense.
23:15So I'm listening to
23:16this and I think I
23:18know how you're going
23:18to answer it.
23:19But for those, those
23:20that are listening,
23:21that might be deep
23:23down saying, hey, I
23:24really like what he's
23:24saying.
23:25It makes sense.
23:26But deep down, they're
23:28worried that structure
23:29will kill creativity
23:31or agility.
23:32And they're probably
23:34thinking, well, the
23:34structure sounds great,
23:35but I don't want a
23:36bunch of robots.
23:37I don't want this to be
23:37a machine.
23:39How do you address
23:40that?
23:42Structure is actually
23:44amazing because that
23:45creates a foundation.
23:47It creates a baseline
23:48of what you know you
23:49can do at all times.
23:50And creativity is
23:52always going to be
23:52there as long as you
23:53know that you have
23:54the foundation of
23:55what's working.
23:56And so how I would
23:57address this is like,
23:58hey, we want to
23:59create a baseline that
24:00allows us to be
24:00creative.
24:02So let's say that we
24:04know that this
24:05go-to-market is going
24:05to be producing 70%
24:06of our revenue,
24:08you know, and we
24:08can trust that, you
24:09know, going in and
24:10out day after day,
24:11you know, our sales
24:12team, even our worst
24:12salesperson can close
24:13this deal because we
24:15have the right things
24:15going on.
24:16It's structured
24:16correctly.
24:17Does that mean that we
24:18stop being creative in
24:19the marketplace?
24:20No.
24:20What that means is
24:21that we are going to
24:22have a baseline.
24:23And so when we try
24:24something new, maybe
24:25it's a new ad
24:26creative, maybe it's a
24:27new angle, maybe it's
24:28a new widget or a
24:30feature, whatever that
24:30is, that is going to
24:32kind of like test the
24:32market and see what
24:33responds, we measure
24:35off that baseline.
24:36You say, hey, there's
24:37that old saying that if
24:38you don't have a
24:38standard, you can't
24:39measure the deviation.
24:41Correct.
24:41And so it's, it's
24:43what happens, this goes
24:44back to the whole, you
24:45know, random acts of
24:46marketing, like, well,
24:46let's just try this and
24:47let's just try that.
24:48Like, I can tell you
24:48right now, the best
24:49chefs in the world
24:50aren't just like, let's
24:51do a little bit of salt
24:52here and a little bit of
24:53paprika over there and
24:54throw some cumin in
24:55this.
24:56And like, there is,
24:58there is a science to
24:59it and there's an art
25:00to it.
25:00Don't get me wrong, but
25:01there is also structure
25:02and how they, how they
25:03do it.
25:03Like they cook the
25:04steak a certain way at a
25:06certain temperature until
25:07it hits a certain
25:07degree, they season it
25:09and they let it rest for a
25:10certain amount of time.
25:11Like that structure, does
25:12that mean that they can't
25:13change the flavor of the
25:14steak or the, how they
25:15present the steak?
25:16No.
25:17That's just like, that's
25:18just, you know, what I
25:19would call is like table
25:20steaks, you know, like
25:21this is, this is what we
25:22do to play the game.
25:23And then everything
25:24else is going to allow
25:25us to see how we can
25:26actually be different and
25:27stand out from everybody.
25:28So you don't want to
25:30lead with this whole,
25:31like, well, we have to
25:32be creative.
25:32That's just, you know,
25:33that's just kind of what
25:34we do.
25:35There's nothing, it's not
25:36taken away from your
25:37creativity.
25:38If anything, not having
25:39structure is going to
25:40hinder your creativity
25:41because you're now
25:42concerned on trying to
25:44hit goals that you have
25:44no idea what your
25:45baseline was.
25:46So what metrics are
25:48leading indicators matter
25:49most when you're trying
25:51to replace chaos with
25:52predictability?
25:53You know, it's, it's,
25:55this is the part that I
25:56think every marketer is
25:57going to start, you
25:58know, arguing, but you've
26:00got to look at the, the
26:01vanity metrics because
26:03those vanity metrics is a
26:06directional view of
26:07what the lagging
26:08indicators are going to
26:08be.
26:09So how I look at is
26:10like, if you're going to
26:11run a new campaign,
26:13you've got to say, okay,
26:14well, the goal here is
26:15to increase and you
26:17got to make some, you
26:18know, whatever those
26:18things are, it can be
26:19impressions, it can be
26:20website visits, it can
26:21be, you know, new
26:22leads, it can be
26:23whatever you want
26:24those to be, but it
26:25has to be tied with
26:25what that campaign goal
26:26is.
26:27And you have to have
26:28the understanding of
26:29like, hey, this is, is,
26:30this is more for
26:31impressions.
26:32We're not looking to
26:32get leads.
26:33We're trying to see if
26:34we can get some sort of
26:34signals from the
26:36marketplace to tell us
26:37if this is the right
26:37direction we're going to
26:38go.
26:38And so sometimes
26:39impressions or web
26:40visits is the, is the
26:42leading indicator.
26:43Okay.
26:44Because that's a signal
26:45for the next, the next
26:46goal.
26:46So of the next campaign
26:47that you're going to be
26:48building from there,
26:48it's not one thing.
26:50It just depends on what
26:51you're trying to build and
26:52what you, what you need to
26:53measure for that.
26:54But you can't measure, you
26:56can't go into like, I'll go
26:57back to the chef thing.
26:58You can't use the same
27:00measurement of like how you
27:01would measure a savory meal
27:03versus a sweet meal.
27:04They're two different
27:05things.
27:05Like you, like they're
27:07going to have different
27:07flavor profiles.
27:08They're going to have
27:08different kind of how
27:09they're approached and
27:10presented.
27:11Like it's the same concept
27:12with marketing.
27:12And so as you're building
27:14out your strategy, you
27:15just got to know like,
27:16Hey, we're going to be
27:16measuring these metrics that
27:18are going to be more of
27:18our leading indicators.
27:19We know the goal is to
27:21increase our qualified
27:22leads and our close one
27:23rate.
27:24We understand that.
27:25But what we believe is
27:26that if we're able to do
27:26this, this will eventually
27:28influence this piece of
27:29our puzzle.
27:30And if we can close the
27:31gap and maybe shorten the
27:32sales cycle a little bit
27:33by doing this, then all of
27:34a sudden we have more
27:35cashflow coming in.
27:36Like it's just depends on
27:37how we're trying to like
27:39approach the strategy.
27:40If a business owner feels
27:41overwhelmed right now,
27:42what's one simple step
27:44that they can take this
27:45quarter to begin creating
27:47some structure instead of
27:48just coping with the chaos
27:50that typically exists.
27:52Yeah.
27:52So the, I would say find
27:54where your one bottleneck is
27:56okay.
27:56Whatever it is, it, maybe
27:57it's, maybe your close
27:59rates below 25% as an
28:01example, like you're
28:02getting like, you're
28:02getting leads, they're
28:03getting pushed to SQL.
28:05They're like, Oh man,
28:05these are pretty decent,
28:06but we're closing below
28:0725%.
28:08Okay.
28:09Then we need to go back
28:10and we need to look at
28:11what's going on here.
28:12And this is not a sales
28:13problem.
28:14It can be like, Hey sales,
28:15do you not have enough
28:17enablement that's, that's
28:17going to help you close
28:19these opportunities?
28:19Are there things going
28:20on?
28:21Listen to sales calls,
28:22listen to how, you
28:23know, what, why these
28:24are getting, not getting
28:25closed, like get all
28:26that data and understand
28:28what's happening.
28:28So I'd find that one
28:30bottleneck, whatever it
28:31is, and just really put
28:32your attention on seeing
28:33how you can actually
28:34unlock that piece
28:35because we all have
28:37them.
28:37I mean, I've seen them
28:38at my last role,
28:39like where I saw them,
28:40like we had like
28:41great, you know,
28:42movement and then
28:43there was a bottleneck
28:44in one stage and it
28:45was, and so we would
28:47put attention into how
28:48can we unlock this one
28:49particular stage of
28:51that pipeline.
28:52Now, does that mean
28:53that we're going to be
28:53increasing our ad
28:54spend?
28:55No.
28:55Does that mean that
28:56we're going to lose
28:57deals?
28:58No.
28:58It just means that
28:59we're going to try to
28:59find a way how we
29:00unlock this stage right
29:02here.
29:02Does it mean that we
29:03have to have better
29:04emails?
29:04Does it mean that we
29:05have to have more
29:05follow-ups?
29:06Does it mean that we
29:07have to have better
29:07enablement?
29:08It could be a variety
29:09of those things,
29:10but that's what it
29:11is.
29:11And then you just
29:12measure that piece.
29:13So it's not boiling
29:14the ocean.
29:15It's literally warming
29:16up a cup of coffee.
29:17Find one thing that
29:18you know it's broken
29:19and just address that.
29:20So if there was one
29:21piece of advice that
29:22you could give to
29:23business owners right
29:24now, of all the
29:24advice that you have,
29:25what's the single
29:26most important piece
29:28of advice you'd give
29:29to business owners
29:29right now?
29:30That's a good one
29:31because there's so
29:32many.
29:33So the one thing I
29:34would say is when
29:35you're leading your
29:36team, go in and
29:38understand that you're
29:38going to have to
29:39pivot.
29:40Your strategy that
29:41you have today may
29:42not be the one that
29:42gets you to the next
29:43goal tomorrow.
29:44And quite frankly,
29:46by you pivoting is not
29:47a bad thing.
29:48It's just telling you
29:48the market doesn't
29:49want that.
29:50The market's going to
29:51tell you what is
29:52really important to
29:52them.
29:53So listen to your
29:54market.
29:54So go in there with
29:55like, hey, this is
29:56what we believe.
29:57We believe this is
29:58what they want.
29:58And then all of a
29:59sudden they're saying,
30:00no, we don't want
30:00this, guys.
30:01We want this, this,
30:02and this.
30:03Okay, excellent.
30:03We're going to adjust
30:04and give them exactly
30:05that and then we're
30:06going to keep
30:06measuring.
30:06But what happens
30:08is that sometimes
30:09business leaders get
30:09married to a concept
30:11of like, well, no,
30:12this is how we need
30:13to do it because no
30:13one else is doing
30:14this.
30:15And I get that,
30:17but sometimes there
30:18may be a reason no
30:19one else is doing
30:20that.
30:21Exactly.
30:22And so like the
30:22market is the market
30:23is the market.
30:24Like let the market
30:25determine what good
30:26is and what bad
30:26is.
30:27And so I'll add one
30:29more piece of advice
30:29on this is that ship
30:31as much as you can.
30:33So even if it's
30:34at 70%, 80%, ship
30:36it.
30:36It doesn't have to
30:37be perfect.
30:38Ship it.
30:38And the more you
30:40shipment you put out
30:41there, the more
30:41feedback you get from
30:42the market to tell
30:43you what direction
30:44to go.
30:44And so that's, in
30:46my opinion, is like
30:47is the what smaller
30:49teams can do versus
30:50larger teams.
30:51Larger teams, they
30:52have to have things
30:53that like 100%.
30:54Smaller teams are
30:55like, you know,
30:56Sally sent that too
30:57soon, but you know,
30:59oh, well, you know,
31:00and it's just, it's
31:01okay, but let the
31:01market determine the
31:03quality of that and
31:05then you just start
31:05adjusting for that.
31:06So shipping quickly,
31:07shipping often, and
31:09being able to pivot and
31:10not being married with
31:11what you're trying to,
31:12you know, trying to
31:13wedge in there.
31:14Perfection gets in the
31:15way of progress and
31:17an excellent now is
31:18better than perfect
31:19never.
31:20Yep.
31:20If someone does, if
31:21someone does something
31:22that's 90% of
31:24perfection and they
31:25can get it done and
31:27help a customer, help
31:28a prospect versus
31:29someone that doesn't
31:29do anything because it
31:30wasn't perfect yet,
31:33not, not hard, not
31:33hard to figure out.
31:35I really appreciate
31:36your, your wisdom,
31:37your insights.
31:38If people want to
31:39know more about you,
31:40your company, the
31:40work you do, how to
31:42tell us all how to,
31:43how to interact with
31:44you and learn more.
31:45Yeah.
31:45So I'm most active
31:46on LinkedIn.
31:48So I believe I'm the
31:49only Javier Lozano
31:50Jr.
31:51on LinkedIn.
31:52So type my name in
31:52there, you'll find me.
31:53And then you can also
31:54go to my website.
31:55You can go to
31:57bouldermediasolutions.com.
31:58I've got a free gift
31:59done there as well
32:00too.
32:00It's a pipeline
32:01diagnostic.
32:02It takes like 15
32:03minutes.
32:03It's a self-assessment
32:05for you to kind of go
32:06through like, you
32:07know, where you would
32:08probably find some of
32:09the leaky parts of
32:11your pipeline where
32:12you're missing out on
32:13revenue and you can go
32:14in, you get a score and
32:15then it gives you the
32:16focus of where to put
32:17your attention on what
32:18to fix, going back to
32:19what we were just
32:20discussing earlier.
32:21And so I love this
32:22because what it does is
32:23that instead of saying
32:24like, hey, we got to do
32:24all these things to fix,
32:25we focus on one thing.
32:27We're looking for one
32:27victory.
32:28That is it.
32:28And so that's kind of,
32:30you know, the two places
32:31that you can find me on
32:32LinkedIn, my website,
32:33send me a DM.
32:34I'm happy to communicate
32:34and help people out.
32:36Always want to be a
32:36resource to other folks.
32:38It's been a pleasure
32:39having you on and let's
32:40do this again sometime
32:41soon.
32:42Awesome.
32:42Thank you, Mason.
32:43Thanks so much.
32:44You did great.
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