Leadership Patterns That Shape Organizational Culture and Business Success With Dr. Kevin Foreman

Workforce Alchemy

Leadership Patterns That Shape Organizational Culture and Business Success With Dr. Kevin Foreman  Why do smart leaders keep repeating the same mistakes, even when they have the right strategy, strong intentions, and years of experience?  In this episode, Mason Duchatschek sits down with Dr. Kevin Foreman, founding pastor, bishop, bestselling author, entrepreneur, and leadership coach, for a powerful conversation about hidden patterns in leadership, business, culture, accountability, and growth. If you are a business owner, CEO, executive, HR leader, sales manager, or team leader trying to fix recurring people problems, stalled growth, poor hiring decisions, or cultural dysfunction, this episode will challenge the way you think.  Dr. Foreman explains why leaders often treat symptoms instead of root causes, how organizations tolerate the very culture they claim not to want, why high performers can still miss destructive patterns in themselves, and what it really takes to evolve into the leader your company needs next.  In this conversation, you will learn: • Why leaders often misdiagnose the real problem • How hiring the wrong people creates avoidable performance issues • Why culture is shaped more by what you tolerate than what you say • How accountability differs from control • Why frustration can be a warning sign that a leader has not evolved fast enough • How resilience and the ability to bounce back become a CEO’s competitive advantage  This episode is especially relevant for leaders focused on: business leadership, company culture, employee engagement, employee retention, hiring strategy, executive leadership, accountability, organizational culture, leadership development, team performance, growth mindset, and business transformation.  Guest resources: Dr. Kevin Foreman: https://bishopforeman.com/  Instagram / Social: @BishopForeman  This episode is brought to you by Workforce Alchemy, helping leaders improve hiring, engagement, and retention while uncovering people-related profit leaks hidden in everyday operations.  Connect With Mason Duchatschek and Workforce Alchemy  Websites:   https://masonduchatschek.com/ https://workforcealchemy.com/  📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ReverseRiskConsulting  📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/workforcealchemy/  🐦 X / Twitter: https://x.com/WorkAlchemist  🎥 Rumble: https://rumble.com/user/WorkforceAlchemy  📼 Dailymotion: https://www.dailymotion.com/WorkforceAlchemy  📺 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@WorkforceAlchemist  Subscribe for more conversations on leadership, hiring, retention, workplace culture, business growth, and practical strategies for CEOs and business owners.  Podcast Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaGSQcRH4ChwjjPLD9FN6r2IvuBp5PPbg  #Leadership #BusinessGrowth #CompanyCulture

Transcript

00:05welcome to the mason duke check show this episode is brought to you by workforce alchemy

00:11helping leaders improve hiring engagement and retention while uncovering people-related profit

00:16leaks hidden in everyday operations today's guest is someone i invited very intentionally

00:23because his work speaks directly to a challenge many leaders feel but rarely named

00:30dr kevin foreman is the founding pastor and bishop of harvest church and a best-selling author whose

00:37books explore why capable people and organizations repeat the same patterns even when effort and

00:44intention are high in his book sins of the fathers he unpacks how unseen patterns shape decisions and

00:51outcomes in evolutionaries he challenges leaders to face the truth that growth requires becoming

00:58someone new and in making money moves he connects discipline and accountability to real world

01:05results i brought dr foreman on because business owners ceos and executives face these same issues

01:13inside their companies every day not from a lack of strategy but from patterns that go unexamined

01:20if you've ever wondered why smart leaders repeat mistakes or why growth stalls this conversation

01:28will challenge how you think about leadership dr foreman welcome to the show listen so excited to be with

01:35you and i believe this is going to be an amazing conversation because i think there's going to be a

01:39lot of

01:39aha moments for us all today to learn from grow from and you know i'm always a big believer we

01:44don't go

01:45through anything we grow through everything and so i'm excited well i'm glad you're here thanks for

01:50setting aside the time my pleasure so you spent years in your work talking about patterns that repeat

01:57in people's lives when you look at organizations and leadership teams what are the most common patterns

02:04you see repeating that leaders don't realize they're trapped in great question you know what i think

02:10number one is not really identifying what the real problem is i think so often we're so used to

02:14treating fruit and dealing with the outcome that we never deal with the input that produced that

02:19outcome i see that happen over and over again i started my first business when i was 12 years old

02:25there's this bank in in denver called young americans bank and they had a special charter from the state

02:30to offer financial products since i came out of my mom's room the joke is with a bible and a

02:35briefcase

02:35so i had this spiritual component and this this success and business and entrepreneurial component

02:41and i was always a student i would stand back i would observe i would watch and i noticed that

02:47sometimes the problems are right in front of us and that's exactly why we miss it

02:51number one many times organizations leaders simply aren't addressing what the actual issue is and so as

02:58a result you tinker around this you tinker around that you paint the fruit but you never dealt with the

03:03root so you've got an orange colored apple but the reality is you've never dealt with the fact that

03:07you've got an apple tree and you really want an orange and so that's number one another one that

03:12i see is often hiring people and working with people and they're not where they were fishing

03:18water is what i like to say sometimes we think that you can train everybody and anybody to do

03:24everything and i tend to believe that the best thing to do is to find where people are like a

03:29fish

03:29dropped in water if you put that fish on a tree that fish is literally this is gonna fall off

03:34put that

03:34fish on some grass it's gonna flop around it's not gonna look very intelligent in fact you'd say

03:39what's wrong with this fish nothing is wrong with the fish the fish is just not in the environment and

03:44the element where it thrives it's not doing what it does best this fish needs to be dropped in water

03:50and when you drop that fish in water a lot of what you would have to teach is naturally demonstrated

03:55um in the in that fish and so i think many times for companies organizations when it's

04:00non-profit for profit i've done both and built very successful companies i discovered that uh we

04:06tried to change our process to people and it's not so much as just checking boxes it's more saying

04:12where is this person a fish in water because their facial expressions are different their body language

04:18is different the way they do the work is different you don't have to you don't have to worry about

04:21them at 458 shut down because they got to make sure that they're in that parking line at 501

04:26this is the person that when they're doing the thing that they are created to do that they are

04:31best at that gives them life they will naturally produce great results for your company i'll give

04:37you a third because you know the speaker of me likes to have threes i'd say one of the third

04:42organizations not willing to admit that we need to quickly pivot sometimes organizations stall in the

04:50decision making process and it becomes a pattern that keeps repeating because it's too long to make a

04:55change it takes too long to do something different i coined this phrase that i love to you know operate

05:00by lead by live by which is i'm married to results not the system so if we have to quickly

05:07change the

05:08system quickly change the process quickly change let's be married to getting our desired result

05:13instead of being married to what we've invested so much time in this system we've invested so much

05:17time in this and this you know protocol to this procedure instead if we see this is not giving us

05:24what we want let's pivot quickly because the faster we can pivot the faster we can be more productive

05:30the faster we can be more profitable the faster that we can get the right people doing the right

05:34things everything moves quickly when you move quickly many times companies sometimes previous

05:40successes can become an enemy to current success and future success because now it's like you're living

05:47to protect the past instead of create the future it's funny because i just have this visual image

05:54in my mind of someone racing a car down a dirt road with a bridge out sign ahead and someone's

06:01saying hey

06:02man the sign says the bridge is out ahead we need to stop and pivot or turn no man we've

06:07we've we're

06:08going full speed ahead we we've already spent this much time planning and preparing this trip and we got

06:13places to be like don't distract me and it's like but the bridge is out ahead people think because

06:19they spent so much time energy and resources and planning and they got momentum and everything that

06:23we need to keep down this path but like that what you just described put this image in my brain

06:29and i

06:29can't get it out so yeah no and i think it's so true and it becomes but think about it

06:33because a lot

06:34of times you look at companies look at organizations businesses the people people are behind all of these

06:38things right we see it as this building or this logo or this brand but that's people that's people

06:43that are doing customer service people that are in the c-suite people that are managing people that

06:47are doing these things and so people simply bring the processes and procedures and patterns from their

06:53personal lives into everything that they do you cannot do different than who you are it's just not

06:58going to work that way you can pretend for a while but ultimately you're going to do what you are

07:03and so

07:03i think um the reason that's so true is because in most personal lives people operate that way you can

07:09see something's coming something's happening something needs to change and well we're just going to

07:13keep with the status quo which you know in one translation means slow death um to keep doing it status

07:18quo this is a slow death we're literally going down a path that is going to lead to extinction and

07:23so

07:23i love that analogy i love the imagery of that because most people live their lives that way and the

07:30truth

07:30is if i don't change it there that i try to change it over here it's the same thing i'm

07:34dealing with

07:35fruit now but root so it's going to repeat because i didn't change i was just trying to change my

07:39business so in your books you explore how patterns often stay invisible until they're made yes can you

07:46share maybe a story where someone didn't realize the pattern that they were repeating until it was

07:52finally brought out into the open sir you know i'll use that i'll use a personal story because i think

07:57the personal stories all the way again as i just said i think the personal bleeds into other area

08:02my books into the fathers i start that book talking about my stepfather my stepfather was a he was a

08:08womanizer he was an abuser verbally and physically to my mom so people hear that and think whoa this is

08:14i

08:14thought we're talking about business and work force and all that we're talking about other stuff but

08:17again personal bleeds into every other life you cannot you know you cannot do in one area of life

08:22different than who you really are and so he never met his biological father in fact when his mother

08:29was pregnant with him she uh in defense of herself she unaligned him in defense of herself he was

08:35attacking her and what have you and so he never met him and here's the point even though he never

08:40met

08:40this man he became exactly like this man because there is a pattern um the pattern and this goes a

08:47bit

08:47deep but those types of patterns that we operate in and that we walk in sometimes they're caught

08:52sometimes they're taught sometimes there are things that we observe and we see and sometimes

08:58there are simply things that it's it's almost like it's it's your default it's the natural thing that

09:03you gravitate to that you go to you know i notice when i'm speaking i normally turn to the left

09:09what's

09:09on the left nothing it's just it's my default i just naturally turn to the left and it never occurred

09:16to me i did that until somebody said sir you constantly turn to the left and i said you know

09:21that's funny because there's no camera over there there's nobody sitting over there it's just the

09:25default i think the same is true in the story i gave about my stepfather my late stepfather is that

09:30until it was called out to say you are behaving exactly like this person you've never met he continued

09:36to do it and even once he knew there was something that had become so so intrinsic and so

09:43entrenched into who he was it still was for him a challenge you bring that over to business

09:48many times for individuals well you know it's this person it's this it's this it's this it becomes the

09:55blame game until someone can step back and normally an unrelated third party that has no vested interest

10:02that can be very objective and say this is the pattern we consistently are hiring the wrong type of

10:09person or this is the pattern we're consistently you know not addressing the real issue or this is

10:15the pattern we need to abandon this whole process right it normally takes somebody calling it out

10:20so that you can actually change it up that's awesome you often talk about how patterns don't just

10:28live in families they also show up in systems as well how do those same cycles appear inside companies

10:34teams and organizational cultures great questions i love let's start with the last phrase you use

10:39organizational cultures so when you when you look at the word culture i want i want to give what might

10:44be an unpopular opinion the first part you see is is the word cult you are right now of course

10:50most

10:51people when they hear the word cult they initially think of something negative but really what culture

10:55is it's a set of beliefs that everybody is buying into either consciously or unconsciously so that's what

11:01culture is and so it becomes really in many ways its own cult not in a negative sense not in

11:07a

11:07nefarious way but it becomes a couple everybody believes into this everybody buys into this so for

11:11example in all of my companies both from a church side and for profit side excellence is one of the

11:17things that's important to us the way people do things matters to our culture and so you when you

11:23talk about these patterns we have this thing where we we say that's not excellent where we

11:28intentionally will identify things that we're doing systems that are in place where we say that's not

11:34excellence because it violates our culture this this is not cult you are this is not the cult we are

11:41this is not our culture this is not what we do this is not how we operate everybody's doing that

11:48whether you know it or not because culture is not just articulated it's something that it's also

11:53experienced so a lack of excellence is tolerated that becomes the culture

11:58if a lack of efficiency so excellence is doing things well efficiency doing the right things well

12:04it's tolerated that becomes the culture if a lack of physical attitude is tolerated that becomes the

12:10culture so when you look at that and you talk about some of those patterns that go unseen often

12:15there are the things that we didn't articulate that's really your culture the things we didn't say

12:20that's really your culture the things that aren't on the wall that's really your culture because it's

12:27this thing that everybody is buying into and everybody is practicing let me prove it to you

12:32everybody's had this happen on a team where they maybe have someone who is you know that person that

12:37is on top of everything you're doing everything well you know they're by the book they got their

12:41checklist they are doing it and sometimes on teams you have the person who does none of that

12:46and what they will do is say oh you know i'm not doing all that you know the boss is

12:50you know my

12:51supervisor you know it's no big deal it's okay what happens that becomes a culture that if it's not

12:56identified it bleeds into the team and it becomes cancerous in many effects and the thing about

13:01cancer sometimes once it grows it's reached too many parts of the body to where it can be

13:06effectively treated and so i think this happens in organizations cultures businesses where there's

13:12certain things that are not addressed because you think well we said this yeah but you didn't address

13:17this which is unsaid which is unspoken which has been unnamed and often that's where the

13:23challenges really run into so one example one another one more example rather excellence is

13:28important another that is important to me is good systems and so we uh we coined this phrase that

13:33would say when people will say well i just can't do it i just said this i'm just that i

13:37normally say

13:38it's not that you're overwhelmed it's that you're under organized and then we followed up with this

13:42your system sucks i know really precise right let me say your system sucks fix your system because

13:49there's nothing wrong with what in those instances there's there's normally not too much wrong with

13:55what a person's being asked to do or the volume they're being asked to do normally it's the system

14:00that's set up around that that makes it feel impossible that makes it feel intangible that makes

14:06it feel like it won't work those again some of those things that are not seen that i think that's

14:11part of

14:11the role of a leader is to not just address the things that are articulated and spoken but what are

14:17the

14:17things that have become part of the cult the culture the beliefs that we all ascribe to whether

14:23they are articulated or unarticulated what are those things doing that are right in front of us

14:29but nobody's addressing what i'm taking away from from your thoughts there is i guess concisely put

14:36you get the culture not that you dictate but that you tolerate that's it that's it the culture that

14:43you tolerate and tolerate is such a powerful word because you can get up and say everything and

14:48anything i mean so let's use this as a pastor i've gotten up and i've spoken in front of our

14:53congregations and tons of people and it always amazes me becoming the people's bishops i love

14:58interacting with people and letting on people and talk to people so i will stand out in line to shake

15:02hands and interact with people for you know hours if necessary one time in atlanta it was the heat it

15:09was the middle of summer we're doing an event and the air rather went off and so it's middle of

15:13summer

15:13the air went down in the venue it's like a hundred degrees in that venue but i stood out there

15:18for an

15:18hour and a half to meet three people here's the point it always blows my mind some of the things

15:22that people will come and say to me because i will say i didn't say that you know people say

15:28you

15:28know when you mention this you know this you you know and you said this you know or they'll say

15:32you

15:32always say this and i'm like i've never said that right and and so it always would blow my mind

15:37that people heard what they wanted to hear not what i said they heard what they interpreted but

15:43not what was said and so when you talk about culture and organization you can say a whole lot

15:49but what do you enforce you can dictate a whole lot but what is it that you tolerate and that's

15:55where the rubber really meets the road because you know many times visionaries and entrepreneurs we

16:00like to get up we give vision we're excited about it look at the data look at the numbers look

16:04at

16:04we're going look at what we're doing and people are going to walk away from that meeting and if you

16:08ask five different people what you said you'll have many times seven different verses what was said

16:14because everybody was interpreting many people are interpreting and filtering not necessarily

16:20listening to apply interesting so why do high-performing intelligent leaders often struggle the most

16:30to see these patterns in themselves i think it goes back to what i was just mentioning it's because

16:34one you get so part of the nature of being a leader is you're visionary so vision is always about

16:40the

16:40future it's always about what's ahead of me to really examine patterns i have to do the exact opposite

16:46of what my natural build is i have to go retrospective i have to go back so it's like telling

16:51someone

16:52who is used to always driving forward stop looking at the uh at the windshield and now let's look in

16:58the

16:58rear view mirror now let's look in the side view mirror and now let's look because that's where the

17:03patterns are the patterns are not in front of you the patterns are behind you so it's not even built

17:08into your nature to look back that way and look back retrospectively and introspectively because

17:14normally it's like okay well that didn't work let's move on that didn't work let's move on that

17:17didn't work let's move on and it's good to move on but move on with wisdom move on with knowledge

17:22move on having evaluated what did we just do what did we just run over what did we just what

17:29did

17:29we just knock off the rope what did we just do and i think that's why it's so difficult it's

17:34because

17:34it's directly antithetical to the nature of most high-performing people high-performing people are

17:40always moving forward so i'm going to ask you a kind of a personal question if you don't mind

17:44i know in your books that you challenge people to grow and evolve rather than stay the same but i'm

17:49curious if there was a moment in your own leadership journey where you realized that the version of you

17:54that built success wasn't the one required to sustain it absolutely and it's so i love the language you

18:00used around that because that's exactly the way i say it is that because the version of me that i

18:05was

18:06is not the version of me that i need to be so you know i talked a little bit about

18:10my childhood and

18:11and so you know coming up in an environment like that you become very parentified in the sense that

18:18early on you you know i felt like i needed to be protected to my mom protected to my brother

18:23and

18:23my sister and i bring that up because again you know as a leader as a business owner entrepreneur

18:28ceo all that those are just expressions of who i am as an individual and i think for every person

18:33to

18:34step back because there's always this disconnect between the two it's just you doing different

18:39things you know water if you freeze it is ice but it's still water water if you heat it up

18:43or not

18:43enough it's steam but it's still water so if you put on a different hat you're still you if you're

18:49sitting in a different seat you're still you if you add a title in front or behind your name you're

18:54still you so in that i became very parentified so there was a sense of responsibility that i had

19:00so i would often view the people on my team i viewed them in a very paternal way so i'd

19:06see somebody

19:06that wasn't performing really well or wasn't doing really well and rather than just handling it as an

19:11executive should handle it i would handle it like a father i would think well let's address this and

19:17let's work with them and you know let's do this and let's do that and all the while abandoning the

19:23mission to address and treat an individual that the reality was back to where we started they just

19:30were a fish that wasn't in water but when you think paternally you don't see it that way because

19:35every father watching right now every mother right now watching is thinking well no you know with my

19:39kids i would do it like this i would do it like this for me personally for a large part

19:44of my

19:44leadership journey or you know a significant part of my leadership journey thought paternally and i

19:48said this is not working this is not effective now here's the thing we were still building and

19:54growing in an amazing way but i was impeded because my my time was spent let's go back to the

20:01car analogy instead of driving the car forward i'm turning around getting the kids together in the

20:05back seat so i got one hand on the steering wheel and all of this stuff going on around me

20:10and i'm turning around getting to the kids hey you gotta stop that hey you got you know fussing with

20:15the kids like parents sometimes do and that was a moment where i recognized this was good enough

20:21when this was small enough to where you could do that you cannot do that anymore you are going to

20:27have to begin to treat this and handle this as an executive which required me personally to say

20:32why am i handling it like that in the first place because if this was a vendor i would handle

20:37it

20:37that way when this was somebody you know in a different scenario it's because i took a sense of

20:42paternal care for people and that simply was not the right attitude i needed that so what are the warning

20:48signs that a leader maybe hasn't evolved fast enough for the company that they're building

20:54oh you ready you're always frustrated if you are always frustrated it's a sign okay i had it easy

21:03something's got to change here and sometimes i think as a leader you can feel and this is crazy

21:08you've got all the power but you feel powerless you've got all the cards in your hand but sometimes

21:13you can feel like i just don't know what i'm going to do i don't know what we're going to

21:16do about

21:16this i don't know what we're going to do about this sometimes you can get stuck in this circular

21:20firing squad with yourself as a leader especially a high-performing leader where you've had many

21:26successes and so often the thought is i'll just duplicate what i did over there i'll duplicate it

21:30here i'll duplicate it here i'll duplicate it there but part of growth part of leadership is that i've

21:34got to constantly keep evolving and so if you're always frustrated that's a sign secondly if you no

21:40longer have the passion you used to have to do what you do it's an often it's an indication many

21:46people say i think i'm having a mid-life price i'm having a mid-business price i'm having this i'm

21:49having

21:50that i'm having that a post whatever and sometimes what it really is is that you need to evolve you're

21:55like the butterfly in the cocoon and the struggle you feel is the struggle to i gotta break out of

22:01this previous cocoon and this cocoon represents the previous version of me i'm not enjoying what it is

22:07that i used to love to do now it's like that dread is often telling you it's time to evolve

22:14and here's

22:15the third thing is that when you look at your organization um you know there's more ways to

22:21measure growth than top line revenue there's more ways to measure growth than profitability there's

22:28more ways to measure growth than retention of employees or staffing there's more ways to measure

22:34growth like are the people happy doing the work or do you enjoy the people you're around again

22:41business is business so i'm not saying it's got to be kumbaya everybody's sitting around having

22:45s'mores and having a bigger family but you spend think about it you spend a third of your life sleep

22:5124 hours eight hours and i know some people get a lot less some people get a little bit more

22:5630 your life sleep you spend a third of your life working the other third of your life you know

23:02depending on where you live um you're in the car you're driving you're doing all these things

23:06two-thirds of your life are really spoken for one of those thirds is doing work do you really

23:11want to be doing work in an environment that you feel like you need an escape from that's often a

23:17sign it's time to evolve i'm absorbing that and you're so right and i and i like the very first

23:23thing that you said when you said there are more your exact quote was oh here i'm gonna see if

23:28i see

23:28if i got it right you're like oh that's not what i said but the part about there's more ways

23:32to

23:32measure success than profitability yes and yes there's and there's other metrics i'm shocked

23:38by how many companies and i i understand the trend but how reliant some companies are on metrics

23:45whether it's profitability or whether it's customer satisfaction or whether it's time your customers

23:50spend on hold how organizations look at the metrics and they seem to assume that they're doing great

23:57when if you ask the people on the front lines who are dreading work and aren't enjoying this and you

24:03feel that they're being treated like a machine and not part of a human not part of a living

24:07organization which is that culture cult you are as you said then these these folks making these

24:12decisions don't get it i mean i can literally think of times where i have been on the phone and

24:17i know

24:17when this happened perhaps you can relate but i've been on the phone with a provider a vendor and it's

24:25a

24:25complex problem and i can tell very quickly that the person that i'm talking to on the phone it's beyond

24:31their skill level and i know they're being evaluated by what's your rating at the end was the customer

24:37happy and how long did it take and when they realize at a certain point time this is going to

24:41take a lot they've just hung up because they know good and well well gee i'm going to get this

24:47going

24:47to affect my metrics it's going to look like i did a bad job my boss is going to be

24:51mad they're going

24:51to get a bad value i'm going to get a bad evaluation and it wasn't my fault this is a

24:55company

24:55structural issue and meanwhile that negative experience as a customer doesn't show up

25:01at all right and the metrics say oh we're doing great look we don't have any complaints look how

25:06fast our customer service people are taking care of these when they're not i get dumped into a queue

25:10and there's no accountability there at all and they know that which is why they do it and the people

25:15atop are oblivious to it right it's i understand what you're saying i love what you said about the

25:21profitability and the metrics it just i know it's a little bit off a pivot off of what you're

25:25talking about but that pulled it out in me so even in the spirit of accountability i know leaders

25:31often confuse accountability with control from your experience developing leaders what does healthy

25:36effective accountability actually look like you know what i think it's really not one size fits all

25:43and i think this is one of the things i had to learn i had to really learn the difference

25:46some

25:47people are really good with people some people are really good with projects very few people are good

25:50both that's a for my experience that's almost a unicorn of a person where you can manage projects

25:56and people and do both well and so you can do both but do both well i would put people

26:01who were really

26:02good at projects i sometimes would put them over people and i would get this person's uh you know

26:10not a nice person this is a person we don't enjoy this is a person who this that the other

26:15and i would

26:16say why didn't you want to say anything they said well we knew that if you put them in place

26:20you put

26:21them in place for a reason and most people wouldn't say anything so i created a culture um where you

26:27know i just i said since you're not going to tell me everything i'm just going to ask the questions

26:31so how's also doing what's happening what's going on i discovered that and i went a little further

26:37than that but when it comes to accountability there's just not one size fits all i think there's got to

26:42be

26:43basics all in our organization i'm big on checklists i'm big on we can't monitor what we can't measure

26:48so i'm big on checklists big on protocols big on procedures for the technical tactical aspects of

26:55what someone's doing then there's the things beyond the technical tactical aspects of what someone's

27:01doing and for that it's different there are some but we have what we call verify everything all the

27:06time which is literally exactly what it says because that person where they're at in their

27:11journey that's what's most effective then there are some where it is very much so a this person

27:18works well when they are not just to them an over an overachiever or a strong performer they will feel

27:24like you know it's micromanaging them for certain levels so we really have looked at it and i look at

27:30it as what's what's most effective and i normally use a couple of metrics and a couple of ways to

27:36measure

27:36this is that is this person have to be followed up with because if so that's a problem because what

27:43that means is you know again i'm a visionary type so once i speak it and once i release it

27:48i'm done

27:48with it but i have a good memory too and so that creates this interesting dichotomy interesting

27:52dichotomy because i'm going to remember what i told you i'm going to remember because it's going

27:56to be on a list it's going to be somewhere else and when i go back to visit that i'm

27:59going to say

27:59where is this what's going on with that when we see people who um are not necessarily good at

28:05self-managing the accountability structure needs to go to something that is much more i'll use the

28:12term rigid much more systematic and that's not control because at the end of the day if we don't

28:19know what people are doing it's going to be very rare that you actually find that out until like you

28:25just mentioned you have enough negative customer experiences because i'm just i'm not dealing with

28:30that i'm not going to put up with that i'll just you know what and especially you think of the

28:35a lot

28:35of these businesses especially subscription style businesses there's 14 other companies that do the

28:39same thing so if i'm not going to be treated well i'm not going to beg to be treated well

28:44for you to

28:46address this particular issue and so i i don't think it's a one-size-fits-all i think you got

28:50to

28:50evaluate how people perform the roles that they're doing and i think there's varying degrees

28:55of accountability and to me anyone who views accountability as well you're trying to control

29:01me or micromanage me one of two things is true one they're a horrible performer or two the

29:05antithesis they're a high performer to be the one you know that's a fair answer because i i i paid

29:10my

29:11way through college with army rotc so i was a second lieutenant and i remember one of our major

29:16major responsibilities was making sure that our equipment operated and was fully ready how did

29:22you say it you said you check everything all the time that's one extreme and then and while we didn't

29:28do i wouldn't say we went there but my my style then and again i was early 20s so it's

29:35been a minute

29:36but i wanted my guys to know that i wasn't micromanaging but i was paying attention and we had this

29:45thing called pmcs which is preventive maintenance and check systems or something like that where

29:49every drill the guys have to come in and check there's a book like step one is check this on

29:56the vehicle step two is check that on the vehicle it might be 19 steps and i'd go grab every

30:01i didn't

30:01do it all the time but once in a while i would go grab a post-it note and i

30:05might climb under the

30:06vehicle get my uniform dirty and put a little post-it note on the axle or something that people are

30:12supposed to check and hey when you find this note bring it to lieutenant duke check and and then i

30:18would wait a few hours and i'd go and i'd ask my platoon sergeant hey has pmcs been done and

30:24he'd

30:24be like yes it has great let's go see the squad leader squad leader has pmcs oh yes it has

30:29squad

30:30asked the guy up front hey has pmcs been done the guy that's supposed to actually do it oh yes

30:35yeah yes

30:36sir i did well do you have anything for me well what are you talking about and then i would

30:41ask the

30:42sergeant and the sergeant i've asked the the platoon sergeant and the squad leader crawl under the

30:47vehicle and see if they found anything around the axle now i wasn't being doing it to be a jerk

30:53i was

30:53saying that hey i'm going to inspect what i expect and if you tell me you something's done you need

31:00to

31:00make sure it is because i there's a very good chance i already know the answer to that or i

31:04will check and

31:04i didn't do it to to give static or headaches to that individual i did that to send a message

31:10to

31:11everybody that the lieutenant's going to check and don't lie to him because he's going to find out

31:18and it's just do what you're supposed to do and i didn't have to do that often so like like

31:23you said

31:23i was just curious what your take on it was but in this case i know what 100 checking it

31:28every single

31:29time looks like and i know what the other extreme like which is not doing it ever for me in

31:34my style

31:34i'm not saying it's right for me but in my style the way i rolled in that particular environment

31:39a happy medium tended to be most effective yeah and can i just throw this on there oh give me

31:45the

31:45catch up no go ahead you're good no something's on there too and i think the reason that's important

31:50is especially when you consider the end game um or the end user or the end experience so for example

31:56let me use church the reason uh we create you know at one point you know administration was you know

32:02processing i think the numbers were like you know 8 000 phone calls i forget exactly what the numbers

32:08were but it was like 2 000 phone calls 8 000 emails like you know that were coming in um

32:15that weren't

32:16just you know hi how you doing you know you know type of boilerplate responses and so each of those

32:23individuals that's a life um that they're reaching to us for something significant

32:30and sometimes these people are in the on the verge of you know divorce sometimes on the verge of

32:36suicidal ideation like so these are not just like you know you know i stubbed my toe and i need

32:42prayer

32:42you know and i'm not saying that's i understand but the gravity of it right so to me i said

32:47these are

32:48big things that people are often contacting us for and if we are inefficient and ineffective at

32:55communicating and responding and having systems and structures and strategies in place so that we're

33:00able to respond to people and address whatever their concerns our needs are what have you it's not just

33:06like you know um i'll just you know go down the street you know so to speak these are some

33:12pretty

33:12serious life issues and so i think when you look at the end game i look at maintenance on a

33:17car well

33:18if the maintenance isn't done right that could lead to several different things accidents you know

33:24blowouts you know all different types of things so to me you got to look at the end game because

33:28sometimes people you know um view it as i don't want my team to think this i don't want my

33:33team to

33:34think this sometimes the pick is do i want to be do i do i care more about what someone

33:40thinks about

33:40me or do i care more about what our end game is and how important it is for us to

33:45achieve that

33:46that's and i think that's gold yeah that's gold yeah yeah yeah because if you care more about what

33:52your people think about you what will often happen is again as the leader you really become managed you

33:59really you're really being managed by the people you lead well you know she can get a little upset

34:03when i ask her about this so i don't want to say anything well who's running the show um if

34:08you and

34:09here's my saying and then i'm gonna leave it alone but if you're gonna call the shots you have to

34:12be

34:12okay taking the shots because that's the way it comes that's the way it goes so you can't get upset

34:19and get caught into this thing of well people think i'm less people they don't think what they want to

34:22think whether they tell you or not so i might as well accomplish the end game and make sure that

34:28we're getting the thing done versus occupying myself with you know that and i'll just throw this

34:33last little piece on i discovered many people struggle with liking themselves so i can't i can't

34:40obsess myself with wanting everybody to like me you're dropping some wisdom there

34:45yeah yeah in your experience why do people often resist the very changes they say they want

34:53even when those changes would clearly benefit them and you know what i think number one pride

34:59the pride of wanting to protect what i thought i knew you know i thought i knew this and needed

35:05to be

35:06like this we need to do like this and oftentimes it's right in front of your face but there's this

35:11stubbornness that says well well well and again this is true in every area of life most people are

35:18that way this is why people run away from therapy run away from counseling run away from you know any

35:24type of scenario where value can be added to their life a lot of people many people run from that

35:29not

35:29all but many many people run from that it's because it's going to make you actually address what's right in

35:35front of you and it's going to make you admit that maybe i was wrong about this maybe i was

35:39wrong about

35:40that maybe you have to change this so here so the question goes okay how do i fix that it's

35:44this

35:44framework live your life as a student not an expert because an expert when something doesn't go the way

35:51they think it's supposed to go or their expert air quotes opinion says it should go they will fight

35:57to protect what it is that they have put in this glass case i'm an expert i know what's supposed

36:03to

36:03happen i know what needs to go on when you live as a student what do students do students take

36:07tests

36:07and miss questions all the time students get things wrong all the time the goal isn't that i'm

36:13the expert i'm a student and since i'm living as a student i can easily make the changes i can

36:17easily

36:18accept new information that challenges what i thought i knew that challenges what i thought i believed

36:23because i wasn't trying to be the expert i just want to be the student and when you shift your

36:28life that

36:28way it makes it very easy for you to step back and say okay all right let's change that all

36:33right

36:33we need to change this all right we need to do this different and that took some time because you

36:37know

36:37especially if you've had success at any area of life there's this internal structure that can develop

36:43like i know what it takes to be successful you knew what it took to be successful but what if

36:49what

36:49it takes to be successful now requires some change i was i was in a discussion with one of my

36:54childhood

36:55friends recently and i hope that i can give his comments justice but what was being discussed was

37:02the reticular activating system yes it determines what we pay attention to it basically it's and he

37:09described it which i thought was very simple term he said it's like the bodyguard that stands outside

37:14of your brain and decides what ideas it's going to let in and which ones it's going to repel and

37:22and i look at the things going on in our culture in general and how people have used the reticular

37:28activating system to see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear to do what to

37:34confirm

37:34what their beliefs already are yes and the wisdom of my friend was he said i don't allow that he

37:42said i

37:43maintain a spirit of curiosity i value curiosity more than confirmation

37:51and that's kind of what i hear coming from you stated more eloquently but that was a conversation

37:56i was in recently and it really made me think about the bodyguard outside my brain yes keeping

38:01the bad ideas out and how people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear

38:05and it's all

38:05about confirming why they're right and when they do that they are not open to the other things that

38:10can help them and that they need to be exposed to and remedy for that as he my friend so

38:17eloquently

38:17pointed out was it's value it's prioritizing curiosity over confirmation and i just absolutely

38:25that was wisdom that i was very glad so i guess maybe god's trying to get an idea through my

38:29head

38:29if if he hit me with it and then you're hitting me with it yeah maybe maybe god thinks i'm

38:33a hard

38:34head and haven't been listening he's trying to get it but yeah yeah you know and if i could just

38:40add

38:40this real fast because i love that i was just talking about that yesterday myself and and i think part

38:45of

38:45that is it's called confirmation bias it's where everything you see is there to only confirm what

38:51you've already decided you believe it's either i allow myself the freedom and this is where it goes

38:58back to being a student to where i'm allowing things to inform me and teach me rather than i'm teaching

39:05and informing everything around me that shift requires a level of humility but here's what i've discovered

39:12with every i mentor and coach people from every walk of life every financial status in life from

39:19zero dollars to hundreds of millions of dollars and here's what i've discovered the most successful

39:25was the ones that always skew on the higher income earners skew accomplishing the most things however you

39:31want to view or measure success they are always very curious they always ask a lot of questions there are

39:40many times very quiet and they're listening and they're taking it in and they're okay and they're

39:47the ones with the most money in the room and the most success we're having to measure that in the

39:51room

39:52but they are the ones asking the questions and and when you begin to notice this pattern

39:56you realize that success requires you to stay a student because life is going to change business

40:01is going to change economies are going to change cultures are going to change workplaces are going to

40:06change all of this stuff is going to constantly change so how foolish it would be to say i am

40:12a

40:12eight track and everybody's always going to listen eight tracks you know there's right i hate to say

40:17this but you're dating yourself there and me too but there's people who don't know what an eight track

40:22tape is i do know what that's true that's true right all right let's let's do like this i am

40:26up okay let's go look at brick phones the brick cell phones i am a i am a motorola phone

40:32and

40:33motorola phones are always going to be here right that's not the case who would think that we're

40:38going to be talking on devices that are flat and glass screens and no not even any buttons like

40:44nobody was thinking about that you know and so it's a jetson cartoon the jetsons were profits back in

40:50the day well now this is true between the jetsons and the simpsons we got everything figured out

40:55we know everything coming so i got a question for you if a ceo or executive listening today

41:02if there was only one piece of advice you could give them and i know there's a whole bunch of

41:07valuable insights and ideas and strategies you could offer but if there was only one piece of advice you

41:12could give them what do you consider is the most important and why i would say this and it's pretty

41:17interesting i would say value your ability to bounce back and here's what i mean by that

41:25ceos executives are always managing inner tension and inner you know if you ever want to know what

41:33your insecurities are become a leader because everything about your insecurity all of those

41:38things are not come to the surface um because you're not just managing a company you are again

41:43you're dealing with you and i would say always value your ability to bounce back like one bad quarter is

41:49not

41:49the end one bad year is not the end one bad hire is not the end a loss isn't the

41:55end i remember after

41:57building a very successful in fact by the age of 21 i built denver's largest black-owned mortgage company

42:02and uh and then the entire industry collapsed and it wasn't just my company i just opened a brand new

42:07office we were doing a ton of business i mean on friday we were on top of the world on

42:11monday there was no

42:12world to be on top of i mean literally it happened that fast and i remember doing that time thinking

42:17what happened how am i here and i said okay i did that i can do it again i can

42:24do something different

42:25i can do something bigger i can do something better i talk about those lessons in my book making money

42:29moves already getting your finances in order because how do you build something really big and then

42:33literally do to no fault of your own have that thing completely destroyed if you will and gone

42:40how do you build back better how do you do that i think for every ceo always recognize your resilience

42:46is your superpower your bounce back is your blessing your ability to say you know i took it l but

42:53i'm still

42:54here i got a pulse which means there's still a plan i'm not done yet i'm not done yet you

43:00know what

43:01thank you for that i hope people listening i i'm willing to bet there are people shaking their heads

43:06and raising their fists right now going absolutely yes thank you so much yes last question if people

43:12want to know more about you your work your books your your your foundations and things like that

43:17what's the best way for them to connect with you and learn more or be part of what two waves

43:21yeah two ways one bishop forman.com f-o-r-e-m-a.com everything's there for everything everything

43:27that we do we've got a great coaching community that we are launching we're super excited about

43:32that i still do one-on-ones and what have you but everything books and church stuff and business

43:36stuff all of it's there and then on social media at bishop forman b-i-s-h-o-p-f

43:41-o-r-e-m-a-m i actually

43:42literally respond to the messages so i get several hundred a day i still respond so it takes me a

43:46while

43:47but if you've been watching it something was spoken something inspired you definitely shoot me a dm

43:52and let me know and and i would love to hear that and something we're doing for your audience because

43:57my nature is i believe that you will never receive if you don't first release i think that's a

44:02principle sometimes too that leaders often miss is that we're wanting to receive something before

44:06we release something it doesn't work that way you got to let it go before you can get it back

44:09and so for your audience um if they text the word bishop b-i-s-h-o-p to the

44:15phone number

44:15five five four nine eight now we want to offer them a substantial discount on all our books all of

44:21our

44:21stuff everything we got they just want to offer offer them something um that uh that will help

44:27them to to take advantage of it and i will say this i write all of my books for men

44:31because fellas

44:32let's be honest and i remember this is generalization this isn't true for every man but most men like

44:37just get to the point give me the bottom line give me where i want to go so i write

44:42my books so that

44:42women will enjoy them but that men will actually read them so i put both worlds together and uh and

44:49they're just some amazing things that i think will add great value to your life be very practical

44:52very pragmatic what can you do with it but again if they text the word bishop b-i-s-h

44:57-o-p to the phone

44:58number five five four nine eight they'll get a text telling all about it but uh i thank you so

45:02much for

45:03this conversation it's been a pleasure hopefully let's get together and do this again sometime soon

45:07thank you i'd love to i'd love to thank you

45:19thank you

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