Why Most Leaders Think They Have a Marketing Problem When They Actually Have a Clarity Problem

Workforce Alchemy

Most leaders believe they have a marketing problem. In reality, they have a clarity problem.  In this episode of The Mason Duchatschek Show, Mason Duchatschek breaks down why unclear positioning quietly destroys authority, trust, and pricing power, even in well run businesses. If your company struggles to stand out, explain its value, or command premium pricing, this conversation will change how you think about branding and leadership.  Mason is joined by Luna Battalia, a branding and positioning expert who helps leaders clarify their message and differentiate in competitive markets. Together, they explore why visibility is not the same as authority, how vague messaging forces the market to define your brand for you, and why strong leaders declare their positioning instead of explaining it.  This conversation goes beyond logos, taglines, and design. It focuses on brand clarity as a leadership decision that directly impacts growth, influence, and long term relevance.  What You’ll Learn in This Episode  Why most leaders confuse branding problems with marketing problems  The real cost of unclear positioning and generic messaging  Visibility versus authority and why the difference matters  Why strong leaders declare their brand instead of explaining it  How clarity increases trust, influence, and pricing power  Branding as a strategic leadership decision, not a design exercise  00:00 The Foundation of Branding: Message Clarity 03:53 Strategic Brand Design and Customer Loyalty 08:21 The Role of Branding in an AI-Driven World 11:48 Client-Centric Messaging: The Key to Connection 15:07 Getting Attention in a Crowded Market 21:37 Leadership and Brand Strategy: A Holistic Approach 24:53 The Relationality of Business Leadership 27:52 Creating Unique Market Positioning 32:02 Building Trust Through Relational Branding 35:46 Balancing Authenticity with Strategic Positioning 41:01 The Power of Intimacy in Business  Watch and Listen  Full podcast episodes and articles: https://workforcealchemy.com/podcast-magazine/  About The Mason Duchatschek Show  The Mason Duchatschek Show features in depth conversations with business leaders, authors, and thinkers who challenge conventional wisdom around leadership, culture, performance, and growth. The goal is simple. Deliver ideas, strategies, and insights leaders can actually use.  This Episode Is Brought to You by Workforce Alchemy  Helping leaders avoid hiring disasters, stop payroll waste caused by disengagement, and eliminate people related profit leaks hidden inside everyday operations.  Learn more at https://www.WorkforceAlchemy.com  Connect With Workforce Alchemy  Facebook https://www.facebook.com/ReverseRiskConsulting  Instagram https://www.instagram.com/workforcealchemy/  X https://x.com/WorkAlchemist  Rumble https://rumble.com/user/WorkforceAlchemy  Dailymotion https://www.dailymotion.com/WorkforceAlchemy  YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@WorkforceAlchemist#Leadership   #BrandStrategy #Positioning #Leadership

Transcript

00:00Welcome to the Mason Dukacek Show.

00:08This episode is brought to you by Workforce Alchemy,

00:11helping leaders improve hiring, engagement, and retention

00:14while uncovering people-related profit leaks hidden in everyday operations.

00:21Today's guest is Luna Battaglia.

00:23She's a seasoned brand strategist, designer, and leadership mentor

00:28who partners with purpose-driven organizations to clarify their core message,

00:33strengthen their brand presence, and deepen audience connection.

00:39Luna brings over a decade of experience helping leaders express their why

00:45through strategic messaging, visual identity, and holistic brand strategy,

00:50all designed to support sustainable impact and growth.

00:55She helps organizations articulate their vision, streamline communication,

01:00and build cohesive experiences that attract and retain the right audiences.

01:04Whether it's refining voice, visual identity, or strategic business direction,

01:11Luna's approach blends strategy with human-centered insight

01:15to help leaders lead with clarity and confidence.

01:18Luna, welcome to the show.

01:20Thanks so much. I'm so excited to be here.

01:21I know we're kind of on a tight schedule, which we always are, but if it's okay with you,

01:25I'd like to jump right in.

01:27Yeah.

01:27When executives think of branding, they often focus on logos or campaigns.

01:34I know that you emphasize messaging first.

01:37Why is message clarity foundational to organizational success?

01:42Love this.

01:42So the messaging is always the foundation.

01:45It's always where we begin because the message is where the emotions really come through.

01:50Yes, colors and imagery can evoke emotions, but I find that the story you're telling,

01:57the deep understanding of the desires that your audience has or challenges that they're experiencing,

02:03along with the founder's motivation or the brand's mission and the values,

02:08those get expressed.

02:10And what I have found is when people kind of, what's the word I'm thinking of,

02:15like puzzle piece or piecemeal,

02:17they're branding and they do copywriting and messaging with one person.

02:20They do visual branding and they're like,

02:22oh, my friend, you know, just she's got a great design eye and she put this logo together for me.

02:28And then this person's doing the website.

02:30None of those people are talking to each other and connecting.

02:32And a lot of people kind of get colors and logos and things like that and fonts.

02:38And then they come back and do messaging and the messaging has archetypes.

02:42It has the brand's personality, the tone, the expression, the values, the mission, all of these pieces.

02:49And you can see that if you kind of just create a color story and logos and fonts,

02:54and then you get to the emotional stuff later and you're like, oh, I like this.

02:58Maybe the founder likes these things, likes these colors, likes these fonts,

03:01but they don't really communicate or evoke a sense.

03:05Say the brand has a sense of maturity or sage or wisdom or elder.

03:10And then the fonts are kind of playful and light and the color story is like bright.

03:14Those things are incongruent.

03:17And so when I have people who build visual websites and then come back

03:22and they think they can just input copywriting later.

03:24And I always say that copy informs design.

03:29And so the copy and the message are the core thing that wants to be communicated.

03:33That's what evokes emotion.

03:35And everything else is supplementally supporting that message being heard

03:39because words are really what convert more than anything.

03:43Okay, cool.

03:44In your opinion, how does strategic brand design influence customer perception

03:49and long-term loyalty beyond just looking pretty?

03:52Yeah, I think that when we're designing in a strategic way,

03:59it's that brand strategy has to do with all the pieces.

04:04So a lot of times a brand evolves, things might change.

04:07The visuals might change.

04:08But if the brand has a sense of consistency in its presence,

04:13in its expression, in the way it makes people feel,

04:16in its noticeability or what I call being unignorable,

04:20and that kind of factor stays the same,

04:23then people are excited about the visual evolution.

04:28They're not thrown off by it.

04:30They're excited to grow with the brand.

04:33And so I think when you do it strategically,

04:35it's really about the...

04:38When I look at messaging, it's four parts.

04:39And I know we're talking about visuals.

04:41But the message is the foundations,

04:42which is motivation, mission, values,

04:45these kind of like standard things that everything is built on.

04:48Then it's personality, expression, archetypes, tone.

04:53Then it's all about the audience, demo and psychographics,

04:56primarily psychographics.

04:57And then the fourth part is storytelling.

04:59And that's what I think of as part A and part B,

05:03communicating with each other.

05:05And so that storytelling has to be the consistent thread.

05:08You're telling the same story again and again and again

05:10in different words in different ways.

05:12And so the visual branding,

05:15it's important that it evokes the same emotions

05:18that the story is intending to evoke or tell

05:21or elicit within the reader or the audience.

05:24And so if the client's desire is primarily...

05:29They really need a sense of hopefulness.

05:31They're desperate.

05:32They're down and out.

05:34They really are at the end of their rope.

05:36They need some quality of hope.

05:38Okay.

05:38So then all the messaging, all the visuals, the website,

05:41everything, the story is intending to elicit hope.

05:45So for me, the strategy is almost always based...

05:47Visual strategy as well as any type of brand strategy

05:50is always based on what are the emotions

05:53that the audience wants to feel.

05:56Sometimes what they want and what they need

05:59are different things.

06:01Or sometimes...

06:02Can you explain on that a bit?

06:02Yeah.

06:03And the second part of that that I was going to share

06:06is like sometimes what we want for them as the brand

06:10and what they want for themselves

06:12or they think they need are different.

06:15So for my clients,

06:17a lot of them feel like they need strategy.

06:21I work with primarily service-based entrepreneurs

06:24who have a personal brand.

06:26So their presence, they might be podcasters,

06:28their presence, their name is the forefront of the brand.

06:30And they can often be inundated

06:35with Instagram marketing, podcasts, emails,

06:38all these marketers that are like,

06:40if you do it this way, if you do it this way,

06:42if this strategy, this strategy, this strategy.

06:44And so my entire approach in our brand studio,

06:47Career Creative, the whole approach is based on

06:50I have a million strategies that work,

06:52but what is going to work for you?

06:53What's going to work for your nervous system?

06:55So my clients feel like they need a strategy

06:58and oftentimes what they really need

07:00is to look at their approach.

07:04So it's not the strategy,

07:06like they think,

07:06oh, if I could just get this strategy,

07:08then this would work,

07:09then I would get the results that I want.

07:11But oftentimes it's really looking at

07:14the approach to getting that strategy.

07:17Because if you're outsourcing

07:18and you're looking for everybody else

07:20to give you answers,

07:21that approach is going to keep you

07:22in a loop of outsourcing.

07:24You know, and so I'm always like,

07:27what is the, even in messaging,

07:28what's the emotional in the branding?

07:30It's like, what is the approach?

07:32This psychological piece is so important

07:36because it's how we operate,

07:38whether we're the founder and the entrepreneur

07:39or whether we're the business

07:41or whether we're the client or the customer.

07:43We're both operating from these psychological places

07:45that are influencing how we approach

07:48our work or our purchases.

07:50And understanding that is,

07:52I think a key thing

07:54that's either missing

07:55or used as a manipulative tactic

07:57in a lot of ways.

07:58Well, I love your answer.

08:01And let me tell you why I invited you on today.

08:04Because right now, as you know,

08:06AI is a big thing.

08:08I remember when search engine optimization

08:10was the big thing for businesses.

08:11Like, oh, how do you get your business

08:13to rank on the top page of Google

08:14for your particular keywords?

08:16And the big gold rush, if you will,

08:19was how to do that.

08:19Well, the next level that I see coming

08:22is going to be people optimizing for AI.

08:26And AI is not going to give out

08:2810 different businesses in your area

08:31that can do something like

08:32the first page of Google.

08:34At least I don't think it will.

08:35But anyway, I could be wrong.

08:36It happens.

08:37I think what's going to happen is

08:39people are going to be competing

08:40for that one or two recommendations

08:42and deep explanations from AI

08:43telling them,

08:44if you want this,

08:45do that from this company.

08:46And that's going to be a lot of people

08:49competing for a very, very

08:50minuscule opportunity.

08:53And the antidote that I see to that

08:54is branding.

08:56It's creating a feeling

08:57and an emotion

08:58and a recognition.

09:00I feel good about what they do,

09:02how they do it,

09:02how they present.

09:03I want to know more about

09:04whether or not this company

09:06can help me.

09:07So that's why I think branding

09:08is so important.

09:09I think it is going to become

09:11the antidote

09:12or the alternative way

09:14alternative way

09:15of being discovered

09:16in an AI generated

09:19marketing land.

09:21For sure.

09:22And like you said,

09:23it's about creating a world,

09:25right?

09:26It's about creating an experience

09:27that people can enter

09:28because there's so many,

09:31there's so much competition

09:32out there.

09:33So when you create

09:34a brand world

09:35that people can enter

09:36and they can feel something

09:38and they can have an experience

09:40versus just getting information,

09:42like this is what we do.

09:43Like I think a lot of times

09:44when I look at websites,

09:45they have this really,

09:46this copywriting style

09:48that's like,

09:49I do X to support Y

09:50in achieving Z.

09:51And that formula,

09:52I remember when I had coaching

09:54from back in the day,

09:5610, 15 years ago,

09:57that's what it was.

09:58It was like,

09:59this is the statement

09:59and how can you say this statement?

10:02And really now it's like

10:03people need so much more

10:04because there's so much

10:06social media,

10:07VR,

10:08AI,

10:09they want this sense

10:10of humanity.

10:12And that,

10:13that personality,

10:15whether it's an individual

10:16or brand personality,

10:18because I think of the brand

10:19as a living being

10:20that has its own personality

10:22that has been birthed

10:24or created

10:24just like we have been

10:26birthed or created

10:26into being.

10:28So they have this unique,

10:30you know,

10:30when you go to someone's house

10:31and you're like,

10:31I get you more now

10:33because I see your vibe

10:34and I feel you

10:35in your home

10:36differently than I experienced

10:38you on the internet.

10:38And that's what

10:41your brand should do.

10:42It should invite people

10:43in to experience

10:44the brand world

10:45or your world

10:46in a way that

10:47makes it a place

10:48that they don't want to leave.

10:49And it's giving them

10:50the experiences

10:51that they've been longing

10:52to having

10:52that they haven't found

10:53elsewhere in other brands

10:54or other places.

10:55I think the important thing

10:57to remember

10:57is that businesses

10:58aren't just competing

10:59with their competitor

11:01X, Y, and Z.

11:03They're competing

11:04with all of these

11:05other companies

11:05for the attention

11:06of their ideal prospects.

11:08Period.

11:09My company isn't just

11:10competing with other companies

11:11that do what I do.

11:12Right.

11:13For the attention of...

11:14It's attention.

11:15It is.

11:16Yeah.

11:16And that's like

11:17one of our greatest

11:17resources to share

11:19with each other

11:20is our attention.

11:20Like having,

11:21you know,

11:22when you have like,

11:22whether it's someone

11:23in your family

11:24or a friend

11:24and you have

11:25their full attention.

11:26Like we so rarely

11:27have that these days.

11:29So to have a client

11:30or customer's attention

11:31that's like,

11:32oh, there's so many distractions,

11:33so many things

11:34and I'm giving it to you.

11:36That's a hot lead,

11:37not a warm lead.

11:39What are some patterns

11:40that you see

11:41in organizations

11:42that fail to resonate

11:43with their audiences

11:44versus those that do it well?

11:47What are some of the differences?

11:48I think that a lot of times

11:50one of the things

11:50that I see

11:51is really talking

11:54about yourselves

11:55as a brand,

11:56as a company.

11:58And I think that

11:59it's copywriting.

12:00It's like a subtle

12:00shift in phrasing

12:02and semantics

12:04that can shift things.

12:06But people,

12:08especially buyers,

12:09are very self-centric.

12:10They have a problem

12:11and they want a solution

12:12and they're focused

12:13on the fact

12:14that this problem

12:14still exists

12:15and they want to know

12:16that they have a solution.

12:17So you can say,

12:18we do this

12:18and our company does this

12:20and we see these things,

12:22but they want to feel it

12:23from them.

12:25And I find more

12:26and more and more

12:26that copywriting-wise,

12:28messaging-wise,

12:29centering the client

12:30and painting the picture

12:31of the experience

12:32that they're having

12:33and it's taking

12:34the same exact sentences

12:35of saying,

12:35we do this

12:36and making it more

12:38of a world,

12:40painting a picture,

12:41giving sensory details

12:42that a reader

12:43or an audience

12:44can feel themselves in

12:45and put themselves in

12:46and see themselves

12:48as the hero,

12:51for lack of a better word,

12:52in storytelling,

12:53as the hero of the journey

12:55instead of the company.

12:56And I think,

12:57especially startups,

12:58they're so excited

12:59about what they're doing,

13:00even though it's service-based,

13:01even though there is

13:02this mission to help

13:03and aid in some kind

13:05of problem,

13:07provide a solution

13:08for some kind of problem,

13:09it's very company-centric

13:11and we want to shift that

13:13to client-centric,

13:15customer-centric experience

13:17and painting the picture

13:18that we understand

13:20what their challenge is now,

13:22paint the picture

13:22of what they can expect

13:24when they work with us

13:25or use our product

13:26and then paint the picture

13:28of what's going to happen afterwards

13:29and that is storytelling.

13:31So I think a lot of the thing

13:32that's missing

13:33is storytelling

13:34and it's a buzzword right now,

13:36like everyone's saying storytelling

13:37but not really talking about

13:40what that really means

13:42and I think companies

13:43are trying to kind of use

13:45these AI,

13:46it's one of the things

13:47that it's not,

13:49as someone who's written

13:50tons of clients'

13:51website copy for them,

13:53AI,

13:53it's not that great

13:55at doing that

13:55because it doesn't

13:56really understand this,

13:58it can kind of touch

14:00on a little bit of emotions

14:01but it has this voice

14:02that's really just missing

14:04this human experience

14:07that really allows people

14:09to feel connected to,

14:11it really allows them

14:11to feel seen and heard

14:14and it has this jargon

14:15and it's so repetitious

14:17and you can spot it

14:17from a mile away

14:18and everyone who's using it

14:20and so I think,

14:21you know,

14:22lack of storytelling

14:23and human connection,

14:24reliance on AI

14:25without the human copywriter

14:28to really understand

14:29the audience

14:30and understand

14:31the business well.

14:33So I think a lot of times

14:34people are either

14:34super focused

14:36on their own business

14:37and getting that foundation

14:38really clear,

14:38especially startups,

14:39or they're super focused

14:40on the audience

14:41and it's always about

14:42the relationship

14:43between the two

14:44and how the two

14:44are impacting

14:45and serving

14:46and helping one another.

14:50One of the things

14:51that I'm certain

14:51I'm not the only person

14:52thinking is

14:53if I own a business

14:55and I do great branding,

14:58let's just say

14:58we've got the story,

15:00we've got the ecosystem,

15:01we've got the whole world

15:03around it together,

15:05emotional,

15:05everything's on point.

15:07There's that old saying

15:08like you have

15:08that beautiful billboard

15:09in the middle of the desert

15:10that no one sees.

15:11What are your recommendations

15:13for businesses

15:14to get the attention

15:15of their ideal prospects

15:17when we live

15:20in such a world

15:21that you've got to be able

15:22to explain something instantly

15:23or convey an emotion instantly

15:25or grab curiosity

15:26instantly.

15:28You may have a great story

15:30to tell,

15:30but if you can't get

15:31their attention

15:31long enough to listen

15:32or to stay tuned

15:34long enough

15:34to hear the whole story,

15:35it's almost futile.

15:38I'm sure that

15:39I'm not the first person

15:40to ask you that question.

15:41What are your thoughts?

15:42There's a few things.

15:43One is that

15:44I think there's a difference

15:46between trying to grow

15:47an audience

15:47and trying to nurture

15:48the audience you have.

15:50And there are different phases

15:51that different companies

15:52meet at different times

15:53and really knowing

15:54where you're at

15:55is really important

15:56because

15:56if you're not nurturing

15:58the audience you have

15:59and you're focused

15:59on trying to scale

16:00and get other people's attention

16:02and you're losing

16:02the audience that you have

16:03right in front of you

16:04because you're focused

16:05on this other piece

16:07when you're actually

16:07not ready for that

16:08business-wise

16:09or brand-wise

16:10then I think that

16:10that's one of the first

16:11things I would look at.

16:13The second is art.

16:14I think business

16:16and branding

16:16is relational.

16:19And so

16:20the first thing is

16:21is your branding

16:22relational?

16:23Is it creating

16:24a sense of relationship

16:26with your audience?

16:28It can be a product

16:29that does

16:30something so simple

16:31like I have a

16:32candlestick here.

16:33You know,

16:34it can be anything.

16:35How can you tell

16:36a story

16:36that is relational

16:38visually

16:39and verbally

16:40emotionally?

16:43And I think

16:43what's happening

16:44right now

16:44is there's

16:46a huge influx

16:47of skills

16:48that used to be

16:49specialty skills

16:51like cinematography.

16:54Now

16:54everyone is

16:55everyone on social media

16:56is expected

16:57to be able

16:58to make

16:58a real

16:59cinema

17:00cinemographic.

17:01That's not the right word.

17:02There's too many syllables

17:03in there.

17:03Notice I didn't jump in

17:04to try to help with that.

17:05I didn't know

17:05the right word either

17:06so that's okay

17:06but I know

17:07what you're getting at.

17:08That quality

17:09of cinematography

17:10is something

17:11that is really

17:11accessible

17:12that you can do

17:13on apps

17:13that takes

17:14extra effort

17:15that might be

17:15outsourcing

17:16that might be

17:17hiring someone

17:17on Fiverr

17:18for your team

17:19to get

17:20a certain level

17:21of quality

17:22that is actually

17:22being asked

17:23of us

17:24to compete

17:24with peers

17:25because

17:26it's

17:27things like that

17:28were specialty

17:29and social media

17:30was intended

17:31to kind of be

17:32this every day

17:33just recording

17:34yourself

17:34and even

17:35when it's simple

17:36even when

17:37what works

17:38is just

17:38someone in their

17:39car recording

17:40themselves

17:41and that works

17:42it still has to

17:43have strategy

17:44and storytelling

17:45and have some

17:47kind of thoughtfulness

17:48that is extra

17:48because everyone

17:50is competing

17:50at such a high level

17:51where all the

17:52technology gives us

17:53these skills

17:53that were one

17:54specialty

17:54they're not

17:55so everyone

17:56has to kind of

17:56up their game

17:57attention wise.

17:59It's funny

18:00you said

18:00I'm going to

18:01share this

18:01with the audience

18:02because you

18:02just struck

18:03something that

18:03I think

18:04may be helpful

18:05several years

18:05ago I got

18:06the opportunity

18:06to meet

18:06Kevin Harrington

18:07from Shark Tank

18:08season one

18:10and he had a book

18:11out called

18:12Act Now

18:12and obviously

18:14he's kind of

18:15the father

18:16of infomercials

18:18and one of the

18:19things that he did

18:20was he would

18:21go to trade shows

18:22and he would

18:24just watch

18:25for someone

18:26doing a presentation

18:27that could draw

18:28a crowd

18:29I think he

18:30might have

18:30used the

18:30example he

18:31might have

18:31used might

18:31have been

18:31the Ginsu

18:32knives or

18:32something like

18:33that but he's

18:33just like you

18:33got this guy

18:34slinging knives

18:35and talking

18:35and next thing

18:36you know he's

18:36got this big

18:37crowd and

18:37everyone's tuning

18:38in literally

18:39crowding around

18:40to hear what

18:40this guy say

18:41and he just

18:42watched this

18:42guy do his

18:43thing convey

18:44that emotion

18:44do it in an

18:45entertaining and

18:46enthusiastic way

18:47and next thing

18:48you know people

18:48want to buy

18:49all the knives

18:49so he's like

18:51well gee I

18:51could just make

18:52a video of that

18:52get that in

18:53front of enough

18:53people and

18:54oversimplifying

18:55but the thing

18:56that he he

18:57talked about

18:57was he

18:58literally pulled

18:59the phone out

18:59of his pocket

19:00and he said

19:01I have sold

19:02billions of

19:03dollars of

19:04product using

19:06camera equipment

19:07that cost me

19:08millions of

19:09dollars that

19:10isn't as good

19:11as the camera

19:12that's sitting in

19:12your pocket right

19:13now and that

19:15really hit home

19:16with me as far

19:17as the importance

19:17of storytelling

19:19if you think of

19:20the Ginsu knives

19:20guy making and

19:21I'm just using

19:21that as an

19:22example making

19:22the presentation

19:23hey have you

19:24ever been here

19:25have you ever

19:25had this problem

19:26you ever been

19:26doing this

19:26or been doing

19:27that tried

19:27to figure out

19:28oh no I

19:28got people

19:29coming for

19:29dinner and

19:30what am I

19:30going to do

19:31whatever the

19:31story is I

19:32don't know it

19:33doesn't matter

19:33but the point

19:34is is drew

19:35a crowd had

19:36their attention

19:36and was able

19:37to do that

19:38and it's so

19:39I I get it

19:40I love this

19:40example because

19:42it's relational

19:43so you know

19:44when you go to

19:44a restaurant and

19:45the chef is in

19:47the back and

19:47you can't see

19:47the kitchen and

19:48you can't see

19:48the people and

19:50you order and

19:50somebody it all

19:51happens behind the

19:52scenes and

19:52somebody brings

19:53out your food

19:53and then when

19:54you go to

19:54how bocce

19:55girl

19:55and they're

19:57cooking in

19:57front of you

19:58and they're

19:58throwing the

19:59shrimp into

19:59your mouth to

20:00catch it and

20:00like that's

20:01relational and

20:02you're having a

20:03totally different

20:04experience that

20:05honestly even if

20:06the food isn't

20:07that good it's

20:08memorable you can

20:10you can have

20:10that experience

20:12once 10 years

20:13ago and remember

20:14it because there

20:15was interaction

20:17with the food

20:19the server

20:19the chef there

20:20was so much

20:21more relational

20:22whereas you have

20:24this normally

20:24you're with

20:25your friends

20:25and family

20:26or on a

20:26date or

20:27with someone

20:27and there's

20:28this outside

20:29person who

20:29comes in

20:30maybe there's

20:31a little small

20:32talk and then

20:32they leave and

20:33everything's

20:33happening without

20:35you being a

20:36part of it

20:36and so the

20:37more it's

20:38engaging it's

20:39like taking a

20:40cooking class

20:40versus going

20:41and then eating

20:42the food with

20:42someone where you

20:43made it yourself

20:43there's relational

20:44and so that

20:45Ginsuna is the

20:46guy at the

20:47trade show

20:47he's relating

20:49with the audience

20:50it's like street

20:50performers they create

20:51a crowd because

20:52they're interacting

20:53with the people

20:54they're not just

20:55on a bullhorn

20:56hey look over

20:57here hey look

20:58over here

20:58well I mean if

20:59you think about

21:00ask any little

21:01kid what's their

21:03favorite pizza

21:03they're not going

21:04to say Chuck E

21:05Cheese but if

21:07you if they want

21:08some fun and

21:08they want interaction

21:09right that's

21:10where they want

21:10to go now

21:11parents not so

21:12much fun for the

21:12parents but kids

21:13it's a it's an

21:14experience it's an

21:15interaction it's a

21:16it's a brand that

21:17those little kids

21:18associate with fun

21:19and party and

21:20friends and activities

21:21and oh by the

21:22way I'm not

21:23gonna be hungry

21:23and pizza's okay

21:25but I think

21:27that's in alignment

21:27with what you're

21:28talking about so

21:29I know that you

21:30also work with

21:31leaders on both

21:32brand strategy and

21:33leadership development

21:34how are these

21:35connected

21:36so I've been

21:38personally doing in

21:39my own personal

21:40brand leadership

21:40mentoring for 15

21:42years and then I

21:43founded a brand

21:44studio named

21:45career creative

21:45where we do

21:46holistic branding

21:47from messaging

21:48visuals websites

21:50business and brand

21:51strategy and so

21:52I have always

21:53kept this

21:54mentorship piece

21:54because I really

21:55believe the value

21:59of people creating

22:00things in the world

22:01whether it's art

22:02whether it's

22:02businesses creativity

22:03create create I

22:04think that's what

22:05we're here to do

22:05and I also think

22:08it's a grave

22:10responsibility to

22:12create something

22:13like if you were

22:13to bring a child

22:14into this world

22:15that is a huge

22:16responsibility and

22:18I think when we're

22:18creating businesses

22:19it's a huge

22:20responsibility and

22:21so we might have

22:22the creativity and

22:23the inspiration and

22:25the will to bring it

22:26to into form but

22:28sometimes like

22:31parenting doesn't

22:32come with a manual

22:33you're kind of

22:33learning as you go

22:34and I think business

22:35is the same way

22:37teaching you as you

22:38go especially if

22:39you're on the

22:39entrepreneurial path

22:40and so the

22:42leadership piece is

22:43to me integral in

22:44anyone who's creating

22:45a business like I'm

22:47personally not helping

22:48the person who's

22:49drop shipping vape

22:50pens on Amazon

22:50that's not my

22:51god bless however

22:53you want to spend

22:55your time and your

22:55life and provide for

22:56your family and

22:57yourself is is your

22:58business but to me I

22:59want people who have

23:01this deep care this

23:03deep movement that

23:04they're they need to

23:05contribute that they

23:06would be saddened about

23:08their life and their

23:09legacy if they didn't

23:10fulfill this mission

23:11those are the people I

23:12work with so that

23:14leadership piece is

23:15just having someone in

23:16your corner having a

23:17mentor having an ally

23:18having someone who's

23:19done it for a long

23:21time and to just

23:23have a hand to hold

23:25and to support you

23:26and to reflect and

23:27so my whole coaching

23:28mentorship approach is

23:31you have the answers

23:32it's not to tell you

23:34well this is what I

23:35think you should do

23:35it's to ask enough

23:36questions that you find

23:37your own answer

23:38yourself because I

23:40think that if you

23:41created this business

23:42just like if you

23:44birthed a child that

23:45that parent knows what

23:47the child needs more

23:49than a stranger more

23:50than a sleep coach

23:51more than some kind

23:53of psychologist who

23:54works with child

23:55development that the

23:56intimacy that a

23:58mother and child

23:59have with that

24:00podcast the telepathy

24:02tapes with the kids

24:04who I don't know if

24:04you did it was a big

24:05podcast last year

24:06anyway it's these kids

24:09who can psychically

24:09who are autistic and

24:11nonverbal and they

24:12psychically communicate

24:13with they can't talk

24:14in the world they're

24:15nonverbal but they

24:16can communicate and

24:17it's mostly with their

24:18primary caregiver their

24:19parents they're

24:20primarily their mother

24:21and they can hear her

24:25thoughts they can

24:26there's all these tests

24:27and these researchers

24:29kind of elicit all these

24:31tests to double check

24:32like if she's reading a

24:33book over in the other

24:34room and they can they

24:35can tell you the first

24:36line of it by typing and

24:38so there's this connection

24:39from the creator and the

24:40creation right and there's

24:42this intimacy there that I

24:44think is really important

24:45that as soon as you

24:47create the thing then

24:48there's all these

24:48expectations and we as

24:51the kind of birther of

24:52our businesses we we

24:54have our own agenda

24:55sometimes we want it to

24:56go a certain way like

24:57the same way you'd tell

24:58a kid oh you should be

24:59a you should be a lawyer

25:00and it's like well what

25:01what does the business

25:02want what is the

25:03business unto itself

25:05what is the legacy that

25:06it's leaving beyond our

25:07own ambition and so I

25:09think that this quality

25:11of relationality that I'm

25:13talking about with

25:14branding also exists with

25:15managing and running and

25:17starting a business and so

25:19that to me is the

25:20leadership piece is like

25:20if you're gonna throw

25:21your hat in the arena and

25:22create a business that's

25:24going to impact the

25:24world it's important to

25:27have some accountability

25:27and to really take it as a

25:31big responsibility that

25:33requires us to reflect on

25:35ourselves as the leaders to

25:37have time to be able to

25:39step away from our

25:40businesses and look at how

25:42we're how we're growing

25:43it is is the scalability

25:45that I'm trying to

25:47achieve congruent with my

25:49long-term goals or is it

25:51just a short-term win to

25:52get a bunch of cash

25:53injection is it actually

25:54getting to the place that

25:55I want to get to is it

25:56actually allowing the

25:57business to leave the

25:58legacy it was here to

25:59build and so for me we're

26:00we're always looking at

26:01those things it's kind of

26:02checkpoints it's really

26:03that accountability of how

26:05are you running your

26:06business and is it giving

26:08you the outcome you

26:09want so earlier I was

26:11saying how sometimes it's

26:14not the strategy but the

26:16approach to the strategy

26:17and so the leadership

26:19mentoring is really

26:20looking at that with a

26:22microscope with a loving

26:23microscope and you know

26:25what's you know what vibe

26:26I'm getting from you yeah

26:27if I were I'm gonna take a

26:29stab at this but you know

26:31how when people say oh it's

26:34not personal it's just

26:35business after they do

26:36something that is typically

26:38not nice what I hear from

26:40you is the exact opposite

26:41hey it's it's not

26:43business it's personal

26:44that cut that has a

26:47helpful kind connotation

26:49which is the exact

26:50opposite of the yeah

26:52just you know that's how

26:53I want my customers to

26:54feel that's what I want

26:55offended because this is

26:56just business no hey I

26:58want you to be amazed

26:59because this is just

27:00personal taking a personal

27:03approach that is what I

27:04love that flip yeah that's

27:06that's the feel that I

27:07get from what you're

27:08telling me it's I want to

27:10shift from hey it's not

27:11just business it's

27:12personal that's a way

27:14different vibe and a way

27:15different feeling and a

27:16way different emotion

27:17than the way the

27:19opposite one generates

27:20the excuse for hey I

27:24just mistreated you

27:24don't take it

27:25personally it's just

27:26business it's that's the

27:27vibe that I'm that I'm

27:28getting from from your

27:30answer and I love that

27:31thank you yeah you just

27:33threw me some you're

27:34great at messaging you

27:35just gave me a whole new

27:36tagline that's that's

27:37why we do these things

27:38so let me think of a

27:39different question what

27:40about organizations are

27:42trying to evolve their

27:43brand in a crowded

27:44market what strategic

27:46first step should every

27:48company take when

27:49contemplating maybe a brand

27:51refresh in your opinion

27:52brand refresh you talked

27:54about being in a crowded

27:54market and I think one of

27:56the things is creating

27:57your own market and all

27:59of that is positioning all

28:00of that is messaging it's

28:01something every business

28:02can do for themselves it's

28:03you're actually informing

28:05the audience on what you

28:08are where you lie in the

28:10market they're not coming

28:12up with that conclusion

28:13themselves so if you're a

28:15wellness brand it can be

28:16broad it can be wellness

28:17or it can be very very

28:19specific in a way where you

28:20have less competitors so to

28:23me that's messaging and

28:24positioning 101 is setting

28:27yourself apart if there is a

28:29saturated market they

28:31differentiating finding that

28:32factor that differentiates

28:34yourself and specifically

28:35because I work with a lot

28:36of personal brands people

28:38like yourself people who

28:39have podcasts and

28:40businesses they offer a

28:42service but their face and

28:43their presence is what

28:45allows that service to sell

28:46often is to really I'm like

28:49what makes this unique I do

28:51these messaging sessions and

28:52it's always my story and me

28:54and I'm like yeah yes that's

28:56going to be true for everyone

28:57everywhere but what makes

28:59this really unique it's

29:01it's not the founder's

29:02story it's something

29:04underneath and so I'm

29:06always really excavating

29:07this messaging positioning

29:09intersection for my

29:11clients in their brand is

29:12one of the primary things

29:13that we do to set them up

29:15so that there is so that

29:17people aren't saying oh

29:18there's so many businesses

29:19just like this we do not

29:20want people to say that you

29:22know of course there's

29:23competition and it's the

29:25way that I want people to

29:27study competition to get

29:29more attuned to

29:30themselves not more

29:31attuned to the other

29:32businesses and what

29:33they're doing and try to

29:34mimic and copy but

29:36actually look at what

29:38other businesses are doing

29:39to come back to their

29:40own business and to look

29:41at how unique and

29:43different and what

29:44approach and if if what

29:46they're what I find a lot

29:47of people doing is trying

29:49to mimic the person that

29:50they think is successful

29:51business that they think

29:53is successful that reminds

29:55me of one of my favorite

29:56books years ago I read

29:57by Seth Godin the purple

29:59cow have you read that

30:01book I haven't read that

30:02one okay so I can

30:04summarize it in about 30

30:05seconds great for you and

30:06to the audience he talked

30:08about traveling and I'm

30:09going to butcher it a

30:09little bit but the general

30:10gist of it is he talked

30:11about traveling the

30:11countryside and he saw

30:13this brown cow grazing the

30:15field he thought it was

30:15beautiful he saw the sun

30:17coming over the mountains

30:18and reflecting in the dew in

30:19the grass like diamonds in

30:21the sunlight he's like wow

30:22what a beautiful view it

30:24stopped it got his

30:25attention he paid attention

30:26he absorbed the moment he

30:28said but after driving the

30:29countryside he'd seen

30:31hundreds of brown cows and

30:32they were all boring they

30:33were all the same now if

30:34you ask the cows they all

30:35think they're unique

30:36remarkable and different but

30:37they aren't they're the

30:38same i.e. businesses the

30:39cows are the businesses it

30:40was his analogy he goes but

30:42what if there was a purple

30:43cow a genetic freak of

30:44nature that was let's say

30:46grazing in the local park

30:47just no one ever seen

30:49anything like it how long

30:51would it take for the word

30:52to travel like wildfire

30:53everywhere i mean you'd

30:55have helicopters flying

30:56above you have news

30:56reporters you'd have

30:57everybody with their

30:58cameras to be going viral

30:59on social media worldwide

31:00and why because something

31:03was so unique and

31:04remarkable that people

31:04couldn't help but to talk

31:06about it because that's

31:07the concept how it's still

31:09grazing it's still doing

31:09all the same things but it

31:10had this really unique

31:12factor that differentiated

31:13it and sorry to say for

31:15businesses a color in your

31:17brand story alone isn't

31:19going to do that it has to

31:22be from the messaging it's

31:24a good it's a good

31:24addition when it stands

31:26out visually but it's

31:27anyone can just throw a

31:29you know a bright color in

31:31and do that and more and

31:32more people do that and

31:33then it becomes the norm

31:34so we talked earlier about

31:38the challenge of getting

31:39your brand out there and

31:39getting noticed with people

31:41being distracted and

31:42there's so much competition

31:43there's another level that

31:44i wanted to ask your

31:45opinion on and that's

31:47skepticism trust there's so

31:49much has been done to

31:50violate the trust marketer

31:52gary v says marketers

31:54ruin everything sometimes

31:55they do but but um what

31:58what's your approach or

32:01your ideas or thoughts

32:01about combating the trust

32:04deficit

32:04relational branding i mean

32:08building a relationship that

32:10is not just showing an

32:12attempt to create trust as

32:14a manipulation tactic but

32:16actually building trust with

32:19an audience with a client

32:20or customer base and so

32:22that requires showing up

32:25that requires conversations

32:27that requires listening that

32:28requires engagement with

32:31your audience in an

32:32impactful way to me that's

32:35the huge thing that's going

32:36to do that the other thing

32:37is that you know a lot of

32:40people are triggered by that

32:41word marketing as

32:42entrepreneurs and they just

32:43want to do what their what

32:44their business does they just

32:46want to offer the service

32:47and they don't want to have

32:48to market they don't want

32:49to have to do the

32:50accounting and obviously you

32:51can outsource all these

32:52things that are not your

32:53zone of genius but in the

32:56beginning a lot of people

32:57have to do all these things

32:58and it's good i think it's

32:59really important to learn how

33:00to do all these things

33:01yourself as an entrepreneur

33:02as a business owner but

33:04there's there's this quality

33:07of there's this quality of

33:08trustability that is

33:10reflective in every step of

33:12how the business is run so

33:13how do you treat your

33:16contractors how do you

33:17treat yourself how are you

33:18showing up that trustability

33:20shows up everywhere and it

33:22should a good business has

33:23that those values that the

33:25brand stands for that

33:27people throw on their

33:28websites that needs to be

33:30reflected everywhere so if

33:32they if the person who's

33:33running the business values

33:35something and it shows up in

33:37their branding or their

33:38marketing but it doesn't show

33:39up in how they treat their

33:41their family their their

33:43children their wife and it's

33:44just in the business realm

33:45like that to me is like one

33:47of the biggest things that

33:48I'm sensing feeling looking

33:50for when working with

33:51people is is that quality of

33:54meeting someone and just

33:54going wow that's a good

33:55guy that's a good you know

33:57you just feel it you just

33:58know and and so because

34:01marketing has been so

34:02manipulative for so long and

34:04influencing people just to

34:05sell something it doesn't

34:06really care about the person

34:07people have an ick around

34:09marketing and what I do is

34:11shift marketing to sharing

34:12sharing is caring you're

34:15just sharing your care

34:16you're sharing your care for

34:18the client's experience the

34:19customer's problem the

34:20challenge that they're

34:21having and you're sharing

34:23about the solution that

34:24you've created or founded or

34:25have developed or invented

34:27that really that you care

34:30about you care about them

34:32marketing is just sharing

34:34it's just sharing your

34:36deepest devotion to solving a

34:38problem and when people feel

34:40the heart of it they trust

34:42you more it's interesting

34:43you say that because I've

34:45been listening to a lot of

34:45I've read his books Alex

34:47Harmozi's books yeah and

34:48he's obviously got a huge

34:50presence on the internet and

34:51he tells stories and what I

34:53like about his style and his

34:54approach is he doesn't need

34:56the money number one so his

34:57credibility is there but two

34:59he's like what I'm telling

35:00you is not a sermon it's a

35:02documentary like this is what

35:04I did this is what worked

35:06this is what didn't work and

35:07here's why and I hope that

35:09some of this is helpful to

35:10you he's not covering his

35:12covering his scars he's

35:13sharing them he even says

35:16he goes like hey look I

35:16want you to get the lessons

35:17not the scars and he's open

35:20and authentic enough to be

35:21able to express them in a

35:23way that as someone who

35:25consumes his content like I

35:26feel good about listening to

35:28him because he's just telling

35:30the story he's not saying you

35:31have to do this or you have

35:32to do that look here's what I

35:34did here's what I learned

35:35hope it helps you so along

35:37that same vein in your

35:39opinion how do you balance

35:40authentic expression with

35:41strategic positioning in a

35:43way that feels both real and

35:45competitive I think every

35:47marketer founder entrepreneur

35:50has to find their own way at

35:51this like I know there's

35:53certain things that would

35:54work best for my business

35:55that just aren't me I know

35:57that they would convert well I

35:59know that my audience would

36:00really appreciate if I did

36:01this I know that it would get

36:02more people to have eyes and

36:04it's just not I'm not

36:06someone who has my phone

36:06with me all the time almost

36:08ever I'm not on a hike

36:10documenting it and so I

36:12think that that I'm more of

36:15an artist than a creator and

36:16that actually works for my

36:17brand because people are

36:19hiring me as a creative

36:20director for their

36:21businesses with all the with

36:23the whole branding suite that

36:24we offer and so I like

36:27things a lot more curated I

36:28would rather spend a day in a

36:30studio creating art and

36:32filming than like have my

36:34phone on me all the time do

36:35I think that the filming

36:36every day and sharing

36:37different pieces of my life

36:38would work better and have

36:39higher conversions I do but

36:41it's not authentic to me so I

36:43have to find my balance of

36:44what is really authentic and

36:46what works in the industry and

36:48there the truth is there's so

36:50many strategies knowing what

36:52works for your when I do

36:54business strategy sessions we

36:55always start with goals and

36:57there's four types of goals

36:58that we have business goals

37:00income goals impact goals and

37:03legacy goals like long-term

37:05legacy like what this

37:06business could do if it lived

37:07beyond you and then when we

37:10move into the channels which

37:12are your income streams and

37:14each thing that we're going to

37:16market we're making sure that

37:17our short-term actions work

37:19towards our long-term goals work

37:21towards the impact goals and I

37:23think that a lot of people just

37:25focus on income goals and the

37:27impact of how their business

37:29could support could impact

37:32communities people customers in

37:34a bigger way is really

37:36important and so I think it's

37:39like finding what works for

37:40your nervous system what works

37:42for your family life like how

37:43often do you do you really want

37:45to be working like I could give

37:46you a strategy that you could

37:47implement that's going to be

37:48super successful if you're

37:50willing to do XYZ it's like oh

37:52I'm not willing to do XYZ these

37:53other things in my life are more

37:55important and my family or

37:57whatever it is and and this

37:58strategy would ask me to

37:59sacrifice that I think people

38:00have to get really right with

38:04themselves and look at what

38:06works for them so when when we

38:08create a strategy I do about 12

38:10to 18 months with people at a

38:11time and hopefully it's

38:12something that can either rinse

38:14and repeat and or scale really

38:15easily that they can kind of keep

38:18going on their own but I always

38:20say it's something that they have

38:21to be in relationship with they

38:22have to be looking at this

38:24strategy every you can't just

38:25have it and forget it you have

38:27to be looking at it every 18

38:28every month rather and look at I

38:31bid off more than I could chew or

38:33I actually am so inspired that I

38:35got all of this done and now I

38:37have more space to do this all of

38:39that is feedback you're collecting

38:41data and so it's really it's it's

38:44hardest to do strategy for a

38:46company that's a startup because

38:48they don't have any data that's

38:49collected so then I think one of

38:51the biggest things to answer the

38:53question that you're asking is

38:54collect data okay and actually

38:56look at it because that data will

38:58inform how you move forward next

39:00time and if you're not looking at

39:01the data in a really intricate

39:03microscopic way you're gonna miss

39:06all these opportunities to tweak a

39:09dial slightly to get a different

39:11outcome the next time and then if

39:12what happens is I think people are

39:15then looking for a different

39:17strategy and like oh I need to redo

39:19this and I need to change this and

39:21they need a different strategy and I

39:22heard about this thing that that

39:24they're doing and this is working

39:25and I'm gonna try that and they

39:26don't stick with things and really

39:28refine and collect data so to me

39:31the strategies that have the most

39:32success for the ones that have the

39:34most mistakes and data collected

39:36that shows them how to do things

39:38differently that's that's something

39:40that you you hinted on earlier in the

39:43conversation I'm glad that you

39:44re-emphasize that because people see

39:48oh here's this strategy or I saw this

39:50on the YouTube or I saw this in an

39:52article and hey if it worked for them

39:54it's gonna work for me and and it's

39:55it's just like I I usually hate when

39:58people use sports analogies like on

39:59football but I'm gonna go against my

40:01own better judgment here but if if I'm a

40:04coach and I'm calling the plays there's

40:06all kinds of ways I can score my

40:08strategy might be to run the ball every

40:09single time my strategy might be to

40:10throw the ball might be to kick the

40:12ball it might be to have my defense

40:13sack the opposing quarterback in the end

40:15zone there's all kinds of different

40:16strategies that can work just like you

40:18said earlier but which one is the best

40:21for that which plays to the strengths

40:23of your team and where you are in the

40:27field and what your what your time

40:29constraints are I mean you can't like

40:32you said you can you can score or win

40:33in any number of ways but always be

40:36aware of of what works best for you and

40:39your business and your situation where

40:41you are and what your strengths are and

40:43where your opportunities for improvement

40:44are you're not every other business so

40:47what all these other businesses are

40:48doing chasing what all these other

40:50businesses doing doesn't always make

40:52sense I mean sometimes you get some

40:53ideas from them but I appreciate that

40:55you have twice made the point about

40:57doing things that work for you and not

41:01just chasing trends or chasing crowds so

41:03thank you for re-emphasizing that yeah if

41:07you could only give business owners one

41:09piece of your best advice I know there's a

41:11lot that you know about brain there's a lot

41:13of things that you could share but if

41:14there was only one piece that you think

41:16is the most important piece of advice

41:18you could give to anybody what would it

41:20be I get asked this at the end of every

41:22podcast and I really need to like make a

41:24bank like a little idea idea bank also

41:27so I'm not saying the same thing every

41:28time let's see I think that double down

41:31on intimacy sounds like counterintuitive

41:34to business but intimacy with your brand your

41:40business your customers your clients the

41:43people who've gone through and move

41:45through your products or programs yourself

41:48as a business like if if we spent a little

41:5110% more time doing that I think not only

41:55would the businesses thrive but people

41:58wouldn't have so much of an ick with

42:00marketing customers would have better

42:02experiences more trust would be built and

42:05all these things that we've talked about

42:06today so it sounds really unbusiness like

42:09and much more relational psychology to me

42:12double down on that whatever it means to

42:15you take five minutes to I always say take

42:17your business out on a date ask curiosity a

42:21good date is curious it's asking questions

42:23you're getting to know each other and you're

42:26not just talking about yourself the whole

42:27time you know and so a business business is

42:30like that too it's like what's how was that

42:32launch for you it's it's it's funny because

42:34we were talking offline that you're you're

42:36in Austin Texas right now and I think

42:38that's where Tim Ferriss is right now and I

42:39love his books but he wrote the book for

42:42our work week for those in the audience

42:43that didn't know and one of my favorite

42:45quotes of his is if what you're doing isn't

42:47working do the opposite so if you're out

42:50there oh I'm pushing out advertising I'm

42:52pushing out advertising I'm pushing out

42:53advertising I'm pushing out advertising oh

42:55it's not working do the opposite become

42:57intimate with your your clients and your

42:59customers your ads will perform better

43:01promise imagine that so I really appreciate

43:04the time like I've got lots of insights and

43:06reminders from our conversation today I

43:08genuinely appreciate every bit every

43:10moment of your time if people want to

43:13learn more about you the work you do and

43:16your company what are the best ways for

43:18them to connect with you yeah thanks

43:19Mason for having me on I really enjoyed

43:21being here with you today and your audience

43:23lunar love leadership.com is my website you

43:26can check out the brand studio career

43:27creative through there you say that one more

43:29time that was a little fast yeah Luna

43:31love leadership.com and then Luna Battaglia

43:35on Instagram and you can find me on all the

43:38social medias through Luna Battaglia as

43:40well cool do you have any special programs

43:43or anything that that's going on that

43:44you're excited to share with anybody yeah

43:46we talked a lot today about messaging and

43:48I have this course my foundational course

43:51that it's what I've taken from 15 years of

43:53working with entrepreneurs and doing high

43:55ticket messaging and copywriting with

43:57clients and boiled it down into a self-paced

44:00program that you can move through yourself

44:02whether you're starting something new

44:04already have a business established and

44:07so it's called messenger the master of the

44:09art of being heard and your audience can

44:11get 10% off with the code Mason cool and

44:14you can check that out I appreciate it I'm

44:16sure they will too thank you I'm sure you'll

44:18give them the links or put in the show notes

44:20sure perfect cool well thank you so much

44:23it's been an absolute pleasure having you on

44:25and let's let's let's stay in touch and do

44:27this again soon thanks so much Mason

44:29you

44:30you

44:33you

44:35you

44:37you

44:39you

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44:43you

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