Future-Proofing HR, Hiring, and Culture for Business Owners | Dr. Michelle Griffin - video Dailymotion

Workforce Alchemy

How do smart CEOs and business owners future-proof their workforce in an era of AI, talent shortages, and cultural disruption?  In this episode of The Mason Duchatschek Show, Mason sits down with Dr. Michelle Griffin, industrial organizational psychologist, former HR director turned CEO, to unpack what is really broken in hiring, employee engagement, and workplace culture and how leaders can fix it.  Dr. Griffin shares how she transitioned from HR to CEO, why most companies struggle to attract and retain top talent, and how industrial organizational psychology brings a scientific, data-driven approach to people decisions. This conversation is essential viewing for business owners, CEOs, executives, and HR leaders navigating the future of work.  What You Will Learn in This Episode  • Why most hiring strategies fail before day one • The biggest onboarding and culture mistakes companies make • How AI is reshaping hiring, assessments, and talent decisions • What future-proof HR really looks like for growing companies • Why psychological safety directly impacts performance and retention • The metrics leaders should track to make smarter people decisions • How to build a culture of innovation without sacrificing accountability • Why critical thinking and problem-solving are now non-negotiable skills  Who This Episode Is For  ✔ Business owners and CEOs ✔ Founders and executive leaders ✔ HR and talent acquisition leaders ✔ Sales managers and team leaders ✔ Organizations preparing for AI-driven hiring  If you care about hiring better people, building stronger culture, and creating scalable people systems, this episode is for you.  ⏱ Chapters  00:00 Introduction to the Show and Guest 01:28 Dr. Griffin's Journey from HR to CEO 03:51 The Role of Industrial Organizational Psychology 06:39 Future-Proofing HR Practices 07:54 Common Hiring Mistakes and Employee Integration 09:40 Advice for Employers on Attracting Talent 13:02 The Impact of AI on Hiring Processes 18:59 Critical Thinking and Problem Solving in the Workforce 22:49 Building a Culture of Innovation and Retention 28:05 Psychological Safety and Performance Expectations 31:55 Key Metrics for Smart People Decisions 37:58 Looking Ahead: Talent Strategies for the Future 41:44 Final Advice for Business Owners  Subscribe and Stay Ahead of the Workforce Curve  Subscribe to Workforce Alchemy on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@workforcealchemy  Watch the full podcast playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaGSQcRH4ChwjjPLD9FN6r2IvuBp5PPbg  New episodes weekly featuring experts on leadership, hiring, culture, and the future of work.  🌐 Connect With Workforce Alchemy  Website: https://workforcealchemy.com/  📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ReverseRiskConsulting  📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/workforcealchemy/  🐦 X / Twitter: https://x.com/WorkAlchemist  🎥 Rumble: https://rumble.com/user/WorkforceAlchemy  📼 Dailymotion: https://www.dailymotion.com/WorkforceAlchemy

Transcript

00:00Welcome to the Mason Dukashek Show.

00:08This episode is brought to you by Workforce Alchemy, helping leaders improve hiring, engagement

00:13and retention while uncovering people-related profit leaks hidden in everyday operations.

00:19Today's guest sits at the intersection of science, strategy, and the future of work.

00:24Dr. Michelle Griffin is an industrial organizational psychologist, seasoned HR executive, and the

00:31founder and CEO of Griffin Resources, where she helps organizations build people's systems

00:37that actually scale.

00:40With a PhD in IO psychology and years of experience leading and advising growing companies, Dr.

00:47Griffin brings a rare evidence-based perspective to hiring, to culture and compliance.

00:54Her work focuses on future-proofing HR, designing, hiring, and talent practices that don't just

01:03solve today's problems, but prepare organizations for what's coming next.

01:10If you're a business owner, CEO, or HR leader thinking about how to attract better talent,

01:16reduce risk, and build a workforce that can adapt and endure, this conversation will challenge

01:22how you think about hiring and human resources.

01:26Dr. Griffin, welcome to the show.

01:28Thank you so much for having me.

01:30So your journey from HR director to CEO and founder is inspiring.

01:36Tell me how that happened.

01:38So it was sort of intentional and sort of accidental.

01:41So as I was getting my PhD, I was still in the corporate world.

01:46And the more I got involved in my own research, the more I thought it was unfair to take my

01:51time away from my corporate position.

01:53So I ended up speaking with my CEO at the time, and we discussed a 90-day exit strategy

01:59for me to go independent.

02:01They were very, very supportive.

02:02They realized that was a really great move for the next part of my career.

02:05They actually became a client.

02:07And within that timeline, I lined up a couple clients, and I thought I would just continue to

02:12be an independent contractor while I finished my PhD.

02:15Fortunately or unfortunately, as I decided to not turn away work, I just added on more

02:20clients and added on team members.

02:22So very quickly, within about three months of having my own clientele, I hired two full-time

02:28employees.

02:29That was at the very end of 2019 into 2020.

02:33And so then I just continued to help those companies through COVID.

02:37We learned a lot about kind of not only being a consultant, but also helping a company

02:42from the inside, a lot of them would give us internal email address, have us work directly

02:47with their employees as if we were an internal HR person.

02:51And that became the premise of what I built.

02:54As we continued to grow, we actually had some clients kind of say we felt more like insourcing

02:59than outsourcing.

03:01And that became the model of what we built.

03:03For time, it just made more sense to figure out a billing structure for that and a support

03:07structure from the inside.

03:09And so I now have a pretty large firm.

03:13Right now, we have about 40 team members and about 85 clients worldwide.

03:17We do have some parent companies that are international and we support their domestic

03:21staff here in the U.S.

03:23It has really been rewarding to work with all different types of company sizes and business

03:28owners that really felt the need and desire to kind of build something that was special

03:35to their company and unique to their culture.

03:37We have been able to work with some companies for many years now since I've had it for six

03:42years.

03:42A lot of our clients have kept us that whole time.

03:44Other times, they purposely outgrow us and we help them stand on their own and move on

03:49without us, which has been really special too.

03:51Cool.

03:51So that's what I ended up building.

03:53Cool.

03:53So industrial organizational psychology is a lens most leaders don't get to look through.

03:58So how has that academic foundation influenced the way that you advise companies on things

04:04like hiring and culture?

04:06So I look at it both from a very scientific academic lens, some of it from my own research

04:12and some of it from just understanding how to make a practical application of the science,

04:19especially having been in both HR and studying IO psychology.

04:23So I try to break it down and not get too boring with them, but really understand like some

04:27of the best practices that science has found and then how do they make that part of their

04:32own processes and what is important to them, the ROI behind that and how that helps solve

04:38their problems.

04:39And from a hiring perspective, we are able to really help them go from, you know, just

04:44unstructured interviews to really understand how they can increase the validity of hiring

04:49by doing structured interviews, bringing in assessments and adding some scientific value

04:55to how they're hiring people.

04:57Once we were able to do that, we reduced their turnover, which means people are involved

05:02in the company longer, which everyone kind of knows that turnover has a price tag to it.

05:06But not only is it just the cost of hiring that person's replacement, but it's also that

05:11value that person brings to the company by staying longer and being a part of the culture

05:15and then maybe referring their colleagues and friends to work at the same company and they all

05:20continue to work longer together and then help align their growth in their career with the

05:25company's growth and structure and things like that.

05:28So it kind of has a holistic approach behind it.

05:31My own research, I wanted to understand how people communicate using technology.

05:36I did decide on my topic before COVID hit, but it became extremely relevant in COVID because

05:41a lot of people were getting, you know, a little nervous about using technology to communicate.

05:46People were still waiting to have some conversations in person or they might pick up the phone

05:50getting written in an email and, you know, what they trusted, what they didn't trust.

05:56And I just took it one step further to look at something as far as that communication and

06:01human interaction across international borders, just to create a more complex structure of what

06:05it looked like if you were working with someone in different states, different backgrounds,

06:09and in my case, different cultures and industries across countries.

06:12But it just, it became kind of a universal idea of how to help people feel comfortable and

06:18interact and how do you take that from a remote environment versus an in-person environment.

06:24So now we've had a lot of questions about how we can help companies when they may have a

06:30hybrid environment or remote environment and what are some things they can do to keep people

06:35engaged and involved in their companies.

06:37So that's how it's really helped.

06:39So when you say future-proof HR, what does that truly mean in practical terms for business

06:46leaders right now?

06:48It's really a strategic approach to, you know, essentially a lot of times companies don't

06:54face their own mortality in the way that you, the economy or their industries are rapidly changing.

07:00AI has a big say in a lot of that.

07:02We've all kind of seen some huge companies that just all of a sudden disappeared because they

07:06really didn't keep up with the times like Blockbuster, you know, they could have gone

07:10the way of Netflix and really, you know, bought them and had a futuristic, you know,

07:15streaming application and they didn't.

07:17So really being able to understand where the future is going and aligning your humans with

07:22it.

07:23How much of a human touch do you need?

07:24How much of an AI can automate your processes?

07:27How can you do more with less?

07:29Or how can you increase your resources and upskill your people?

07:32So a lot of it is that kind of approach of where, you know, where can you really see

07:36your business as fast as the economy or the technology is changing and being able to keep

07:42up with it and try to predict it.

07:44So what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see companies making in their hiring processes

07:48that are leaving them, for lack of a better word, unprepared for tomorrow's workforce?

07:54A lot of times it's not necessarily the recruiting process.

07:56It's really kind of the caliber of the person that they're looking for and being able to

08:01understand how that person is going to impact the organization and then being able to onboard

08:06them and probably keep properly keep them ingrained into the company.

08:09Hiring managers really have no idea what to do with a person as soon as they show up in

08:12the organization.

08:13And then that person may feel isolated.

08:15They may not feel supported.

08:16They may not have the right resources.

08:18So it's about being prepared to integrate a new person into your company and how to keep

08:25your culture in essentially intentional and that it is something that you want your entire

08:31organization to move in the same direction.

08:33And every single person in your company matters.

08:36And you really have to understand and see that and make sure that every person knows where

08:42their value is in the organization.

08:44I mean, that's kind of why we had that whole quiet quitting culture.

08:46We may still see that quite often is because people just were like, well, why would I output

08:51so much if the company is not going to input into me?

08:54And, you know, they're like, I'm just here to collect a paycheck.

08:56Well, that doesn't really feel good on the output of that person because they're going

09:00to be, you know, they're going to be interacting with, you know, employee, other employees, clients,

09:05outward facing, you know, everyone in the company is essentially a salesperson for either what

09:10the company does or what the company is moving forward and how they work together.

09:14So it's really important that companies really see their human capital as their biggest asset

09:20and what that means for their business, because pretty much every business has people and human

09:24resources is not just necessarily benefits and payroll.

09:28It's really how do you integrate every single person in your organization into a culture and

09:34a company and a mission that you want and you have as an organization.

09:38So what words of wisdom or advice do you have for employers who are struggling to source

09:45enough quality applicants to the point that they can be very picky?

09:48There's a lot to unpack in that question.

09:50It's really important that companies know their value to people.

09:54We actually had an internal struggle with that right around our year three.

09:58It wasn't necessarily because of the age of the company, but it was also the shift from

10:02we have a very remote environment.

10:03Like what we do is very remote.

10:05We do have some people that go on site, but not a lot at that point is when COVID was kind

10:11of relieving.

10:12People were able to go back to work.

10:13It wasn't a requirement to work remote anymore.

10:15We were having some turnover issues.

10:18So we turned our best practices internal to ourselves, had our own leadership coach reach

10:23out to everyone in the company and ask, why do you work here and what keeps you coming

10:27back?

10:28And from that, we learned some of our own value structure of why it was a good place to work.

10:33And we were able to express that to other people that we were looking to bring on board

10:39and say, this is what we do best.

10:41This is what we have to offer.

10:42And if this is the same thing you are looking for, this is a great place to work.

10:46If this is not what you're looking for, it's not a great place for you either.

10:49And it's not going to work out.

10:50We've also had several team members leave and come back.

10:54And so we've also asked them, like, what brings you back and why?

10:56Being able to ask your own people what it is that's important to them and being able

11:02to replicate that and express it is important.

11:05Aligning your interviewing of the person to make sure they're a fit for the company and

11:09the role is important, but also making sure that it is going to align with their own purpose

11:14and their own life, work-life balance, things like that.

11:17For us, that ended up being that we do have a lot of work-life balance.

11:21We give a lot of flexibility.

11:22So people that prioritize family as well as work, we found that that was good during COVID.

11:28And those that have continued along those lines of making sure that they put family first

11:33or they put their other priorities first, we make sure that people are being valued and

11:37heard and they have their time off.

11:39They take their vacation time, things like that versus some cultures may not want to prioritize

11:44that for their people.

11:45So there's just some things that some people might say, well, I feel bad if I take my vacation

11:49time, if that's, you know, you want people working really hard for you and you don't

11:54want them taking a lot of time off, then great.

11:56But if you really don't want people having burnout or other issues and you want to make

11:59sure that they feel okay taking their vacation, they feel supported and things like that.

12:03Those are just certain things of knowing how people feel about working there is important.

12:09So I'm going to throw in a little twist because I just read an article and I think it was

12:15in the Atlantic the other day, not positive, but what they were talking about is with AI

12:21coming along, it's difficult as if it wasn't difficult before to identify job applicants

12:27who have the skills to succeed, particularly at entry-level positions.

12:32And they were talking about how AI, just because someone has a college degree, they're saying,

12:38well, do they really have the skills?

12:40Because we're at that transitional point where people are, a lot of those folks are using

12:45AI in college and like, do they really have these skills or did AI do all this?

12:49I don't know what I'm getting, like as if it was easy before when it wasn't.

12:53But what do you say to employers who have plenty of applicants, but are finding it harder to

12:58determine what they really bring to a job because of AI?

13:01So there's a certain point where you have to embrace the fact that they are going to continue

13:06to use AI in the workforce and how they use technology.

13:11It's no different than saying, do you know how to use Excel or do you know how to use

13:14Word?

13:15There are certain just skill sets that people are going to need and you are going to have

13:19to be able to figure out how to interview for that, how to question them for that, how

13:22to assess for that.

13:23And, you know, it's something that you really just have to learn as part of behavior.

13:29It's kind of behavioral interviewing.

13:31You ask a lot of questions about scenarios and how would they problem solve?

13:37How are they going to find solutions?

13:39And if they say, well, I'm going to go ask AI, how would I do this?

13:42That's great.

13:42You still have to be the one to go execute it.

13:44And so as long as they understand how to use resources, I think that's really important.

13:48It's funny that you bring up, I hope you can find the article because it'd be great

13:51to reference.

13:52But I honestly just got a text message from a friend of mine that we were talking about

13:56Copilot.

13:57I had, it was just kind of a funny prompt that I had on mine.

13:59And I was like, I feel kind of seen slash creeped out because it was very predictive.

14:03And he had said that he had lost a project that he wrote and he couldn't locate it.

14:08And so he asked Copilot, can you locate the document for me?

14:11And it said, no, I can't, but I do know how you wrote it and I can rewrite it for you.

14:15And it rewrote it for him.

14:16And he said it was better than the original.

14:18Wow.

14:19So it's definitely getting a little weird, but it's like, how can you make it so that it

14:24is supportive of your work and, you know, something that is valuable to the company.

14:28And it's just because AI is, you don't want humans to become totally obsolete.

14:33You definitely need to understand your resources and how to improve and again, do more with

14:38less resources.

14:39So that's really comes into upskilling the people.

14:42And people right out of college, and I know this because I'm asked to guest lecture at

14:46universities that are trying to make sure that they're keeping up with the times and

14:49how do they do the same thing with making sure people are prepared to be in the workforce?

14:54What are the workforce looking for?

14:56Or how can they make sure that the, you know, the next generations coming out of universities

14:59are able to, you know, be able to perform at that level?

15:04And so there's multiple times that I will help universities and professors kind of understand

15:09what is happening in the workforce.

15:11And it's part of those problems are in the universities.

15:16They're saying, don't use it at all.

15:18But that's like saying, don't use a calculator or don't use Excel.

15:21Like you have to, and you have to know your tools and we have to continue to grow and

15:26change as technology is changing.

15:28I think businesses are going to really have to re-evaluate what they're looking for the

15:34jobs.

15:35Because you said something, there's two things you said that jumped out at me.

15:38Are these applicants solution finders or are they problem solvers?

15:41I went through college and I was Army ROTC, becoming an Army officer paid for my college.

15:47But if I'm out in the woods during a rainstorm in the middle of the night, in the middle

15:50of nowhere, I'm not going to AI to say, hey, how can I solve this problem?

15:54I need to be able to figure something out.

15:55I need to be able to think on my feet.

15:56I need to be able to collaborate and cooperate with my team.

16:00And we need to figure out a solution quickly.

16:03That was an important skill that I really value now that I developed early because of the

16:11positions that I was in.

16:13But now if you have, like my son, he's been out of college a couple of years.

16:18He's expert solution finder.

16:21He can go on the internet and find a solution quickly.

16:23And we actually had this debate one time.

16:26And I was like, Clayton, why don't you just figure this out?

16:30He goes like, why wouldn't you just look it up?

16:31If I can look up the answer and have it in a few seconds and you're going to figure it

16:35out and it's going to take a few minutes, who's a dummy?

16:37Yeah, and it's definitely one of those things where it's like you have to, I think, maybe

16:44have a little bit of both because there's also the situation of, you know, we are starting

16:50to see technology glitches, blackouts.

16:53And, you know, there was multiple blackouts in Europe that happens even, you know, as recently

16:59as just, I think, like a month ago, they had like a two-day blackout over, I think it was

17:04just a few months ago, Spain, Spain and Portugal had like a two-day blackout.

17:09So we're starting to see these infrastructure issues.

17:12And so it's, and I think we honestly just had a Verizon blackout like two days ago.

17:16So people are not able to rely on technology unilaterally.

17:21And so it's, if it is there, great.

17:25And you know what to do with it.

17:26If it's not there, you're, are you going to be able to solve this on your own?

17:31Can you think for yourself?

17:33And, you know, it's like, so I really feel like people have to be able to do both.

17:38And you have to, I think, also find creative ways to use the tools.

17:41Like, I was kind of the same thing with you.

17:44I grew up in Alaska.

17:45And so we were taught how to survive in the wilderness literally when I was in elementary

17:49school.

17:50I weirdly know how to navigate by the stars because if you get stuck, if you're lost in

17:53the winter and you have nothing and no idea where to go, you at least know which way is

17:57like north, south, east, or west.

17:58I honestly have no other sense of direction because I can't navigate by the sun because,

18:02well, in Alaska, it doesn't really go across the sky.

18:05It doesn't go east to west.

18:07But weirdly, I can navigate by the north star.

18:09Um, but I also started realizing at some point, if you are even just trying to, you

18:14kind of put something together in your house or something's broken and you don't have the

18:18exact right tool, what other tools do you have?

18:21You're like, well, I don't have a Phillips screwdriver with this exact head.

18:24It's like, well, that's fine.

18:26What else can you have in your house?

18:27And how else can you solve this problem?

18:29And I feel like the same kind of thing happens in, in multiple working situations where it's

18:33like, if you don't have the exact right tool, are you just going to sit there and

18:36wait for the tool to come available again?

18:39And you're like, I can't work for two days because the system's down, or are you going

18:42to find a way to solve it yourself or figure out new or innovative ways?

18:47And, and I think that's also kind of like, we're waiting for that innovation to happen

18:51from either developers or AI to advance itself and versus, you know, also staying on the

18:56forefronts of being innovative ourselves.

18:59I'm fascinated to see how the workforce and employers adapt in their selection processes

19:05to be able to evaluate those kinds of things.

19:09Because if someone's like, Hey, cause that is a legitimate answer.

19:13I could see an applicant fresh out of college say, well, I can't work then.

19:17Like if the stuff, I don't have the tools, I don't have the stuff.

19:19And what do you expect me to do?

19:21And being honest, and that is, I'm not saying that's something that would attract me as an

19:26employer, but they're not lying.

19:28I mean, they're at least like, well, that's what I've been trained to do.

19:31And I'm really, really good at it.

19:32When I have these tools, watch me go.

19:34And they double down the strength.

19:37Like I could see that.

19:39Yeah.

19:39And a lot of teachers, even in younger education are saying critical thinking skills are lacking.

19:44And, you know, there's really the idea of we have to teach critical thinking so that

19:50people can, you know, learn and grow and, you know, be fast thinkers or even problem solvers

19:56versus doers.

19:58And, you know, the arguments of our education was built for factory workers, you know, 150

20:03years ago.

20:05You know, we have to be able to keep up with the education of what's needed for today.

20:10And, you know, we're just advancing so much.

20:12You can either essentially use your education system to train everyday workers or you can train

20:18them to be critical thinkers.

20:20And you really have to teach them, unfortunately or fortunately, to challenge what the status quo is.

20:25And, you know, that's kind of one of the things that is, you know, nice when you have a diverse

20:29workforce, you have people with other backgrounds and unique ideas, and they will basically say,

20:35well, how about this idea or why do we do it that way?

20:38And the horrible idea of the answer is, oh, it's because it's always been done that way.

20:43But that's not a good reason to keep doing it that way.

20:45And so finding new and innovative thinkers and problem solvers and keeping those kinds of

20:49new ideas in your workforce is great.

20:51And that's where, you know, behavioral interview questions are really helpful.

20:54So kind of say if this happens, and you can use even, you know, problems that happen in

20:59your workforce in currently to say, you know, if you have this problems, how would you solve

21:03it?

21:04And it's really interesting when people will ask those kinds of things in interviews,

21:07because you might actually get an answer in your organization that you can apply and

21:12maybe even have a new great employee out of the questions with your interviews.

21:17And it's really kind of nice when some, you know, I would say like it doesn't always have

21:21to be an internship program.

21:22But if you kind of reach out to, you know, other workers and things like that, kind of

21:27the same kind of thing, challenge them, see how they answer it.

21:30And, you know, maybe you can also kind of start to figure out a younger workforce and how you

21:35can bring them into the organization.

21:37And again, if an internship program works for you, great.

21:40And if it doesn't, you know, at least you can start to kind of figure out how to help,

21:44you know, those types of peoples and jobs and things like that with other organizations.

21:48And a lot of times I've seen business owners, you know, just interact with the universities

21:52through, you know, just different programs and things like that.

21:55And even though like I personally can't hire people right out of college because we need

21:59people with years of experience to do what we do to bring the services to our clients.

22:03That doesn't mean that I don't personally go and work with the universities to do resume

22:07reviews and help them with interviewing skills and things like that.

22:11And I get to, you know, also same kind of thing.

22:13I was working with a high school at one point and got to ask the high school students what

22:19they would do in some of these problems.

22:21And it was kind of this cool workshop that was put together by the McDonald Foundation

22:24that brought all these high school students together and had them problem solve for real

22:28corporate problems.

22:30And it was crazy what they came up with.

22:31And a lot of those solutions were actually implemented by the McDonald Foundation, which was

22:35pretty cool.

22:37So culture is often labeled as critical, but sometimes it's kind of hard to define.

22:42Can you share any ideas or insights on how companies can build cultures that support

22:47innovation and retention?

22:49Yeah.

22:49So it's culture is one of those things that it's openly discussed as a generalized term,

22:55but really it's the just the thought process of everyone cultivating and working together

23:02and how do they all see the same work structure and workforce?

23:06So there is a lot of ideas to kind of keeping people innovative.

23:10And a lot of that comes with autonomy and free thinking and being able to express themselves

23:17and problem solve and things like that.

23:18Google has a real famous one for being able to and I forget how they use it, but I want

23:23to say like either like an hour to a day or whatever their time block was, they could

23:28allow team members to just come up with any solution that they wanted.

23:32And that's how we got, you know, Google Maps.

23:34That's how we got Gmail was they just let them come up with their own projects.

23:37And a lot of companies just if you give them the ability to problem solve and do team working

23:44and do creative things together, you know, that can be one way to create a culture of

23:50innovation.

23:51But again, it has to be something that you decide to do as a collective process and thought

23:56through intention.

23:58For the retention part of it, a lot of that has to come with, you know, making sure people

24:02feel seen and heard and that they feel like they belong there.

24:07They see themselves there for a long period of time.

24:09They get the same kind of value and purpose in being there.

24:12People are obviously pretty community based animals.

24:16And so being able to find that purpose in the community and finding value in where you

24:21work is important.

24:23So if a lot of times we're seeing in new generations, a turnover a lot faster, every generation is

24:29leaving jobs faster and faster.

24:31And to the point now where this latest generation is leaving in less than 12 months.

24:35And a lot of it is because if they're not seeing any kind of real value, they'll just

24:40turn around and leave again.

24:41And they'll just keep trying new things and finding new things.

24:44And that's how we get the gig economy and the gig worker.

24:46It's because they'll just take a few part time jobs and they're good with kind of figuring

24:50out how to make ends meet versus, you know, being able to say, I've been in a company for

24:5415 years.

24:55Like that doesn't happen anymore.

24:57So there's real, you know, there has to be incentive for that, but there has to be a

25:01lining of why should they stay and where's that retention purpose coming from.

25:06But it just, you know, if you really have to think about what kind of structure and purpose

25:12are you giving to your employees, but also to your clients, and can you articulate that?

25:17Does everyone in the company kind of feel the same way?

25:19A good exercise is if you just give a survey to the company and ask people to describe the

25:25company in five words, and hopefully you kind of get a very similar message and eventually

25:30very similar context.

25:32And then you create your kind of core values and structure from there.

25:35But it's a good idea to figure out how everyone feels about the company and things like that.

25:40And if that's the intent that the owner or leadership have for the company, and then just, you

25:45know, if it's not, then you're obviously misaligned and making sure that you're being

25:49a little more intentional and vocal about that.

25:52A lot of times I often will encourage companies to take their marketing and turn it internal.

25:58So whatever you're doing external for your marketing, definitely make sure that everyone

26:02is speaking the same language.

26:04And there's so oftentimes when you're out networking or just out seeing people, there's

26:08very few, you know, very same common things in the United States that people get asked.

26:11And it's pretty much, how are you doing?

26:13Where do you work?

26:14What are you doing these days?

26:16And, you know, so every single person in your company, that's why I say everyone's a

26:21salesperson because it's either going to be, it doesn't matter if it's your accountant

26:24or, you know, your HR person, your salesperson, a leader, they're always going to be talking

26:29about where they work and how they feel about it.

26:32And it could either.

26:33I've always felt that HR was the second sales force for most companies and that companies

26:40should literally put as much effort into competing, just like a sales department competes to attract

26:48and identify and retain their best customers.

26:52HR is a second sales force that should fight with that same intensity and actual strategy

26:57to gain and retain top talent.

27:00I've always felt that HR was the second sales force.

27:02I found it interesting.

27:03You talked about how the Google, how Google gave people, Hey, just think about ways to

27:08solve problems.

27:08And you talked about how people were short on their resumes, like, Oh, I only want to do

27:15this gig economy or I only want to work here a year.

27:17Cause I understand the converse of that is someone says, well, they say they've got 10 years of

27:22experience with that company, but they don't have 10 years of experience.

27:24They got one year of experience.

27:25So they've done 10 times.

27:27Me, I've had, I may have had 10 different roles, but I've learned new skills and made myself more

27:32valuable at every single stop.

27:34And they've got a point.

27:35But your example with Google is if they're not just saying, Hey, stay in your lane, do

27:41this or say, Hey, think outside of the box.

27:42What are some problems you can solve?

27:44And what are some ways we can do this?

27:46That is giving them new experience and new problems to solve.

27:49And that is the best of both worlds.

27:51If you ask me, I, that, that struck out when you told me, I was like, that's smart for those

27:55reasons.

27:56Cause then you might be able to retain some of those people that you might've lost after

27:59a year for maybe not 10 years or 15 years, but maybe three or five or six, which is better

28:05than one, especially if they've got institutional knowledge and they're part of the culture that

28:10contributes.

28:11I know you talk about psychological safety.

28:15How does that intersect with performance expectations in high growth companies?

28:19So a lot of times people or companies really focused on some of the psychological safety

28:26needs, mental health and things of that during COVID.

28:29And some have really gotten away from that, especially as the economy has been harder and

28:34they're focusing more on the company itself surviving and growth and things like that.

28:39And so they often will forget about the, the needs of the people themselves.

28:44So having a focus on how people can be able to grow for themselves.

28:52So we think of like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which I assume a lot of people know what that

28:56is, but just for those that may not, it's just the idea that you have to have your basic

29:01needs met first before you can think about additional growth and personal needs beyond that.

29:07So if you are, you know, you don't have food or shelter, then you can't necessarily think

29:13about your, you know, going to work and being productive every day.

29:17And then on top of that, you're, you know, your relationships and being able to develop,

29:21you know, a loving and caring relationship and things like that.

29:25And then eventually you get to the top, which is, you know, having a self-fulfilling type situation

29:31of psychological awareness.

29:33But, and some of that could be religion and things like that, but it's the idea of if

29:37you don't pay your people enough money and they're focused on their income, then that

29:42means they're not going to be the most productive person and being able to perform at their top

29:48because they might need to be worried about, you know, their family or getting a medication

29:53or something like that.

29:54So having the right foundation for the people so that you take money off the table, they're

29:59not worried about their benefits or their healthcare and being able to have a sustainable

30:04life for themselves and their family.

30:06The next thing is how are they going to show up to work every day and how are they showing

30:10up for your company and your clients and their other team members?

30:15And so having companies being very aware of that, and even if they, the company can afford

30:20to do a pay increase just for the sake of economic changes from inflation and saying, you know, well,

30:27we're going to, you know, not waiting until just their annual review just to do it for

30:31themselves for their performance review, just saying, you know, everyone gets a 2% raise

30:35just because the, you know, the economy is up 9% because we're going to try to help out

30:39a little bit or the company is going to contribute a little bit more to benefits because, you

30:45know, we know healthcare costs are increasing.

30:47So some of those things that if a company can afford to do them great or at least acknowledging

30:53that they want to provide some support and, you know, it could just be changing some of

30:58your time off policies or some of those things that can just help be a little more supportive,

31:02making sure people feel comfortable coming forward if they have a situation at home that

31:07they need support with.

31:08If you have employee programs and things like that for addiction or mental health services,

31:16anything like that.

31:17So that's kind of all wraps around to that psychological safety of making sure that people mentally can show

31:22up to their best.

31:24And obviously the ROI behind that is the better they are at work, the better they are to perform

31:29and the more you're going to get out of them.

31:31So it really is in a company's best interest to help the people, but also making sure it

31:35comes from a place of caring and, you know, that people feel seen and valued and heard.

31:39So that also helps with attention and everything else we've been talking about.

31:43Sure.

31:43So what are some, because I know you study this stuff and you do a ton of research, what are

31:47some underrated data points or analytics that leaders should be using to make smarter people

31:53decisions?

31:55So there's a couple that I tend to rely on.

31:58Turnover numbers are a really good one.

31:59Depending on the size of the company, you can look over, you can look at turnover by department.

32:02And there's a, another one is revenue by overhead.

32:08So you literally just take your full revenue and divide it by how many people you have.

32:11And that gives you a good idea.

32:13A lot of times you can actually, if you've got competitors that are public, those numbers

32:17are published and you can see how you're performing against your competitors.

32:21So a lot of times you'll want to understand how much input of people you're getting out of,

32:29you know, of their revenue that you're, you know, that you're generating.

32:32So some of those numbers are really easy to monitor, but you can really see if you are

32:38wasting money in any one location, if you've got people that are not contributing as much

32:44as you think they should and things like that.

32:46So some of those, like obviously sales KPIs are pretty easy to see if people are hitting

32:51their numbers, but if you take an overall just revenue divided by your overhead, you'll

32:55start to see how much you're improving year over year.

32:58Or if you're, a lot of times people just throw bodies at problems and versus implementing

33:04new technology and, you know, how can they make sure that they're, again, upskilling their

33:09people so they're getting more out of them and that they're contributing more and better.

33:14And once you, you know, obviously stop your turnover and you have better retention, again,

33:19those people know how to do their jobs better.

33:20They can do them faster and you get more, again, out of your people and you should have

33:25higher revenue.

33:26So those are kind of some, you know, nice metrics to kind of help monitor and see the patterns

33:31of these stories.

33:33That's good advice.

33:35There's a lot of companies out there that are saying, oh, my labor costs are going out

33:38of the clouds.

33:41What am I going to do?

33:42We need more work done.

33:44We need more work done.

33:45We need to add X number more people.

33:46How are we going to do this?

33:47Listen, maybe they don't need more people.

33:49If they got a hundred employees and the discretionary effort of their average employees, 50%, they're

33:54only getting the work accomplished to 50 people.

33:56They're paying for a hundred people, but they're only getting there.

33:59And then they're wondering why their labor costs are high.

34:02So a lot of times if you, if you can look over turnover by department, you can catch a toxic

34:08manager.

34:09If you, you know, if your overall company doesn't necessarily have a lot of turnover, but one

34:14particular department does, that is an indication to go looking for some issues there.

34:19And oftentimes, like more than not, it's a toxic manager that you have to deal with.

34:24And you, and you really have to make some tough decisions on if that, you know, how that manager

34:28is performing for the company versus how it's performing for the rest of the people.

34:32And, and it's not always easy to solve some of those problems.

34:35But I've, you know, in some situations we've helped them with leadership development, moved

34:42that manager from being a people manager so that they can help with maybe the strategy.

34:46So you don't have to lose that person altogether if they really do value the company or bring

34:50value to the company.

34:51But, you know, not everyone is a great people manager.

34:54And that's a learned skill set.

34:56It's not just because, you know, you were good at their job, so you promoted them and they

35:00never really learned the skills on how to manage people.

35:03So those are some of the things we see quite often where people just kind of keep getting

35:07promoted and promoted, but never learned the skills.

35:10And so either we help them get there if that's really a good solution or, you know, just really

35:14make the right decisions for the company.

35:16But you really should, some of those numbers are key indicators to look for those problems

35:21and solve for them.

35:22And if people are paying attention to the business, you said something there, it's not easy.

35:26And I don't know about you, but I see a lot of companies that don't do things that they

35:31should do for the health of the business because, oh, that's not easy.

35:36You know, you got to find a polite way to say, I don't care if it's not easy.

35:40It doesn't mean that it doesn't need, still need to be done.

35:42You just need to find a way or I get it.

35:45That's, but I love that you say, well, you know, it's not easy to do that.

35:48Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean it still doesn't need to be done.

35:52I guess you're going to have to do some hard things.

35:54Yeah, and oftentimes that's actually why we get hired.

35:58We've helped people, especially when you work with family members or someone that is

36:04really important to you, like a business partner and things like that.

36:08So we've, you know, let people go in the company that were really important, you know, family

36:13members and things like that.

36:14So it's nice to have, you know, someone to be there to do the hard things and then help

36:19keep the company on track and then also try to make sure that those relationships don't

36:23kind of crumble.

36:24So we've definitely helped out in some of those sticky situations.

36:27It's I don't personally like to do them, which is why we have a leadership coach.

36:30Like I personally use my own leadership coach to even help my own team.

36:34We turned her in.

36:35Like I mentioned, we turned her internally a few years ago.

36:37She's been with us since 2022.

36:39And so she's she actually was a client before this and she was a COO of a company.

36:45And then she went independent when that company went under and then asked to work with us.

36:49And then eventually we kind of turned her internally like that.

36:52But it really helped out.

36:54Like, that's why I think so many companies, even with smaller teams, they need to know

36:59how to work together as a leadership team.

37:02Like you have to understand each other's communication styles.

37:06Like there's always going to be confrontation and people aren't taught how to have difficult

37:11conversations and get through them and come out stronger and without resentment and things

37:17like that.

37:17So it's definitely difficult.

37:20Like I actually have several businesses with my husband and it's probably good or bad thing.

37:24I've studied psychology.

37:26So we've been able to, you know, stay married and get through this and build our companies

37:31together.

37:31It's definitely something that is a learned skill.

37:35And it's also not a fun skill to learn.

37:38No.

37:38So I really appreciate all your feedback and your insights.

37:41I hope everyone else listening is enjoying this as much as I am and has learned as much

37:46as I am.

37:47Looking forward maybe three to five years, what capability or talent strategies do you believe

37:54will separate the thriving companies from the ones who end up struggling?

37:58So honestly, I think because technology is changing so quickly, five years from now feels like a

38:05really difficult thing to be able to predict.

38:08Three years might even be a little heavy.

38:09Let's go with three.

38:10Yeah.

38:11So I'm hoping that the people skills are still really important.

38:15And I think that is going to be the differentiating factor for people.

38:19I think as long as companies are still humanizing their workforce, people are still being seen

38:26and valued and heard, and they are contributing to their community and their purpose, and

38:33they keep that top of mind.

38:34I feel like those are the companies that do well.

38:37I've seen company and business owners, when they start to focus on their, they focus on

38:43the money and not their purpose and their people, I've seen them crumble.

38:47And as soon as they lose sight of why they went into business and who they do business

38:54with and just say, I want more money, I want to sell my business, I want to get out from

38:58underneath this, it just crumbled and they don't get the evaluation they want.

39:02They don't get the exit they want.

39:04And if they just keep going with their purpose, everything else follows behind that.

39:08And they end up getting the ROI from the investments in that.

39:11So I honestly think the biggest differentiator is going to be the companies and the business

39:16owners that keep sight of their purpose and their people.

39:20Thank you for that.

39:21Because my gut, because I've got an opinion on that, and we're not that far off of yours

39:25either.

39:26I think that with the technology, like everything, I think there's going to be a big, I think

39:31the pendulum is going to swing so far to AI and technology that there will be some backlash

39:38and it will come back towards, and I don't know whether that's going to take three years

39:41or five years, it may not even take that long, but I'm already seen, like I know, I've had

39:46friends that have interviewed for senior level positions where they've gone through multiple

39:51interviews and never talked to a live person.

39:53It was all AI.

39:55Of course, they had great questions.

39:57They're senior and they're very capable.

39:59But one particular person told me about this and she said, I withdrew my candidacy.

40:06I have no interest.

40:07I'm not a robot.

40:10I am a human.

40:11I am capable of interacting with people.

40:12I have people skills and I'm not going to lose them.

40:15And I'm not going to let a computer decide whether or not I can be a good fit for this

40:19company.

40:19And I don't want to work for a company where that's the culture that they want.

40:22Like she literally withdrew her candidacy.

40:24She's like, I have no interest in working in the company at all like that.

40:28Now, the company that's doing that is sitting there looking at the metrics thinking, oh, look

40:31how fast we're getting through our processes.

40:33Look how few man hours we're getting through.

40:35And I've seen other companies where they're like, look at how fast we're bringing people

40:40through our recruiting funnel.

40:41And of course, their turnover is high and they're losing people just as fast in the back

40:44door that you can bring them into the front door.

40:46But they think their hiring metrics are amazing.

40:48And because look how efficient we are.

40:50Look how fast we are.

40:50It's like, hey, if you went up and you did it right the first time, you wouldn't have

40:54to repeat it over and over and over again.

40:57But I think there is going to be that shift towards over-aliance on technology.

41:02And there's going to be some blowback and it's going to come back.

41:04And I think that people are going to be craving the human experience and interaction.

41:09We can play this interview back a few years from now, see if we were right.

41:14But I'm willing to bet on us.

41:16I think I'm willing to bet on us that we're going to be right.

41:19And you can look back and you got proof that we called it early.

41:22But I really appreciate all your time.

41:25I got one last question for you before I ask how people can get a hold of you.

41:29I know you've got a lot of experience, a lot of knowledge.

41:33If there was only one piece of advice that you could give to business owners or CEOs or

41:39executives, and it was your one chance to give the most important piece of advice you

41:42could offer, what would it be and why?

41:44Oh, a lot of things just went through my brain.

41:46So as a business owner myself, I would say looking back, the one piece of advice that

41:51I wish I would have understood better, and it took me years to know this, was a lot of

41:57people will say the old adage of working in your business versus on your business kind

42:00of situation or on your business versus in it will help you scale.

42:03But I took what I knew, which was HR, and turned it into a service offering.

42:09What I had to learn was how to run a business and running a business and being able to, I

42:14no longer perform HR duties.

42:16And that's actually, you know, what was, and that was my background.

42:18Depending on where CEOs are in their journey as a startup or as a multi-million dollar

42:24business, you have to be able to, you know, pivot and morph and grow to, you know, depending

42:33on where your goals are and what you want to do and being able to help others replicate

42:39what you perform or provide as a service.

42:42And so those are probably some of the harder skills that I had to understand and learn the

42:47rest of the business.

42:48Like, obviously, I have accountants.

42:50I can understand accounting.

42:51I'm not an accountant.

42:52But I definitely don't rely on opening up my business to fraud because I've let somebody

42:58else handle the whole thing.

42:59I still oversee quite a bit in different areas of the business, including the services we perform.

43:04But as a business owner, I purposely wanted to pivot into being able to understand and oversee

43:10all of the functions of the business as it is.

43:13And I've had to learn new skills to do that and stepping away from performing the job itself

43:19as I, you know, went from being an independent contractor all the way up to, you know, a multi-million

43:22dollar business owner.

43:23So I would say giving yourself a lot of grace.

43:26Don't give up during the hard times and, you know, pivot and morph and grow in yourself

43:32and for your business.

43:34So for people who want to know more about you and the work you do and your company, what

43:37are the best ways for them to connect with you?

43:39The website is the best.

43:42It's griffin-resources.com and it has direct contact information and a chat and everything

43:48else to get a hold of me and us.

43:50Cool.

43:51Are you on any social channels, LinkedIn, YouTube?

43:54Yeah.

43:55So, yeah.

43:56So LinkedIn and actually going to a website, there's links to all the social media.

43:59So there's LinkedIn, there's Facebook, there's Instagram, there's a YouTube channel.

44:04So as we, you know, talk with other people and any kind of like, you know, connections

44:09to podcasts like this, we also try to link them through our social media as well.

44:13And so hopefully I can help continue to get this message out.

44:15But yeah, it's definitely pretty easy to find us starting with the website and then going

44:19out from there.

44:20Cool.

44:20Well, thank you so much for your time.

44:22I hope everyone listening enjoyed this as much as I did and learned as much as I did.

44:26I really appreciate your time.

44:27I had a great time.

44:27Thanks for coming on.

44:29Thank you so much for having me.

44:30This was really great.

44:32Thanks so much.

Future-Proofing HR, Hiring, and Culture for Business Owners | Dr. Michelle Griffin

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