- 5 months ago
John and Charles discuss the emergence of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) by tracing its ideological roots through the Latter Rain revival, the shepherding movement, and the Jesus Movement. Charles expresses hesitation about addressing the topic due to its complexity and his desire to avoid the manipulative practices of cult leaders from his past. They explore the disconnect between their experiences in high-control religious groups and the countercultural lifestyles of early Jesus Movement leaders. Charles explains how Branhamite ideology subtly influenced other movements through shared deliverance models and authoritarian leadership, even when doctrines appeared different on the surface.
They outline how figures like Lonnie Frisbee and Bob Mumford became key bridges between the shepherding movement and the Jesus People, eventually feeding into the development of the Vineyard Movement under John Wimber. This branch adopted elements like five-fold ministry and positive confession while initially lacking the “manifested sons of God” doctrine, which later returned through other influences. John and Charles emphasize the importance of perspective—how those who suffered under these systems view their fruits as destructive, while others see them as revival. They conclude that without acknowledging the doctrinal roots and manipulative structures, these movements are prone to repeating the same harmful cycles under new branding.
00:00 Introduction
02:17 Hesitations About Discussing the Jesus Movement
03:55 The Disconnect Between Cult Survivors and the 1960s Counterculture
06:01 How Deliverance Ministry Shapes Paranoia and Demonization
08:15 Perspective Versus Indoctrination
08:35 Review of the Shepherding Movement’s Origins
09:37 Bob Mumford and Latter Rain Influence
12:14 What Was the Jesus Movement?
14:21 Lonnie Frisbee and the Shepherding Movement Connection
17:00 Chuck Smith’s Rejection of Shepherding Leaders
18:20 Comparing Cult Survivors’ Perspectives
20:08 Theological Roots: Authoritarianism, Positive Confession, and Escapism
22:25 Calvary Chapel’s Split and the Emergence of Vineyard
24:00 The Role of Full Gospel Businessmen
27:11 John Wimber’s Embrace of Shepherding Influences
30:02 Recruiting the Jesus People Through Emotional Appeal
33:32 Diverging Paths: Chuck Smith vs. John Wimber
35:16 Doctrine by Emotion vs. Doctrine by Scripture
36:58 Cult Structures Beneath Modern Revivals
38:35 Vineyard as a Faction of the Jesus Movement
39:44 Preview of the Next Episode: How the NAR Emerged
41:50 Signs of Cult Formation in Later Movements
43:12 Emotional Control and Indoctrination
44:59 The Importance of Preserving and Acknowledging Difficult History
50:32 Destructive Cycles Take Time to Manifest
52:08 Recommended Resources for Further Study
54:12 Closing Remarks and Final Warnings
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCG
They outline how figures like Lonnie Frisbee and Bob Mumford became key bridges between the shepherding movement and the Jesus People, eventually feeding into the development of the Vineyard Movement under John Wimber. This branch adopted elements like five-fold ministry and positive confession while initially lacking the “manifested sons of God” doctrine, which later returned through other influences. John and Charles emphasize the importance of perspective—how those who suffered under these systems view their fruits as destructive, while others see them as revival. They conclude that without acknowledging the doctrinal roots and manipulative structures, these movements are prone to repeating the same harmful cycles under new branding.
00:00 Introduction
02:17 Hesitations About Discussing the Jesus Movement
03:55 The Disconnect Between Cult Survivors and the 1960s Counterculture
06:01 How Deliverance Ministry Shapes Paranoia and Demonization
08:15 Perspective Versus Indoctrination
08:35 Review of the Shepherding Movement’s Origins
09:37 Bob Mumford and Latter Rain Influence
12:14 What Was the Jesus Movement?
14:21 Lonnie Frisbee and the Shepherding Movement Connection
17:00 Chuck Smith’s Rejection of Shepherding Leaders
18:20 Comparing Cult Survivors’ Perspectives
20:08 Theological Roots: Authoritarianism, Positive Confession, and Escapism
22:25 Calvary Chapel’s Split and the Emergence of Vineyard
24:00 The Role of Full Gospel Businessmen
27:11 John Wimber’s Embrace of Shepherding Influences
30:02 Recruiting the Jesus People Through Emotional Appeal
33:32 Diverging Paths: Chuck Smith vs. John Wimber
35:16 Doctrine by Emotion vs. Doctrine by Scripture
36:58 Cult Structures Beneath Modern Revivals
38:35 Vineyard as a Faction of the Jesus Movement
39:44 Preview of the Next Episode: How the NAR Emerged
41:50 Signs of Cult Formation in Later Movements
43:12 Emotional Control and Indoctrination
44:59 The Importance of Preserving and Acknowledging Difficult History
50:32 Destructive Cycles Take Time to Manifest
52:08 Recommended Resources for Further Study
54:12 Closing Remarks and Final Warnings
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCG
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00Transcription by CastingWords
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:43And with me, I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend, Charles Paisley,
00:48the founder of christiangospelchurch.org and the author of Come Out of Her, My People.
00:54Charles, usually it is Bob that I get together with whenever we want to say things that just step on everyone's toes.
01:03And today, you have put me in a predicament where we are going to step on everyone's toes.
01:11Yet, you gave me the guardrails of we have to do it in such a way that doesn't step on everyone's toes.
01:19So, I've been preparing for this somewhat in my head.
01:22How do we do this?
01:24How do we talk about the Jesus movement, John Wimber, all of these things,
01:28and do it in such a way that people will actually listen?
01:32And I'm not going to say that I'm going to do it perfectly, but I'm going to say that I am going to try.
01:37Oh, that's pretty funny, John.
01:39Yeah, I know, we've talked so many times.
01:42I mean, probably like two years we've talked about whether or not to record episodes on this.
01:47But here we are at long last, John.
01:49You know, I have felt like if we just talk about, you know, kind of up through the shepherding movement, more or less,
01:56that everyone with, you know, common sense can connect all the rest of the dots, you know,
02:00because I feel like it's kind of obvious, right?
02:03But we will just connect the rest of the dots here in a real, you know,
02:06start connecting them in a real plain way of how you get from the latter rain via the shepherding movement
02:12and others we'll talk about into the new apostolic reformation.
02:16And today, you're right, John, we've got to talk about the Jesus people.
02:20We've got to talk about the Jesus people.
02:22And I want to give a real quick disclaimer here at the very front of this, John.
02:27You know, like I'm so reluctant to talk about this.
02:29I mean, of all of the of all the ones we record, I'm super reluctant to talk about this in part.
02:33And I always want to explain why.
02:35One of the reasons is, you know, what William Branham did to us, right?
02:40What did he do?
02:40He is a man who presented himself as an authority on things he wasn't an authority on.
02:46He's somebody who pretended to know things and have special insight and advanced knowledge on topics.
02:52Where the truth was, he was just conning us all.
02:55He was just tricking us all, right?
02:56I mean, he didn't really know all that stuff.
02:59And he was just like, he was like sloppily putting stuff together out of his library books, right?
03:04And presenting himself as a false authority.
03:06And so I am like, I am so reluctant, John, to like repeat the kind of practices of the cult leader where we come from, right?
03:16And so that is part of the reason, like, I am so reluctant to talk about these guys.
03:20In part because while there's aspects of this I know a lot about, there's other aspects of it I'm just not all that familiar with.
03:27And it is also very hard for me to relate to some aspects of this.
03:32Even though I, like, I've read, I know, I find it impossible to relate to some of this stuff.
03:37Because, John, a drug-addicted hippie living a free love lifestyle in the 1960s is like the polar opposite, John, of me and you and the rest of the cult we come from.
03:52Like, there is no common denominator there.
03:54Like, there's nothing.
03:55There is no common, like, and to me, John, like, I just cannot even wrap my mind around how that even is.
04:04You know, like, like, what, like, what motivates that?
04:06I just don't even, it's, it's fun.
04:08I fundamentally do not understand.
04:10And how people that come from that background could ever be perceived as great authorities while continuing to engage in that lifestyle, it's just very hard for me to wrap my mind around how that's even a thing, right?
04:24So, that, I guess, is disclaimer number one.
04:27There's things there I just don't fully grasp, and I don't want to repeat the errors of our false prophet, you know, by presenting myself as an authority on something where I'm just not that, you know, it's still, some pieces of that are fuzzy to me.
04:41But nevertheless, the trail to the Gnar and the teachings that we believed in the message, they come down this line, and there is a very easily and well-documented way to show how all this happened.
04:54And the critical path to forming the Gnar goes through the Jesus movement.
04:59And so, yeah, we're going to talk about that today.
05:02Not to parrot Bob Scott, I think I would need a big, bushy, white beard to do that properly.
05:07But it all comes down to a matter of perspective.
05:11Our perspective is a bit different from everybody else because we were in this isolationist, doomsday cult that really we had a skewed perspective of the outside world.
05:24While all other Christians are developing and growing and mainstream churches, Christians are taught to better themselves and to become better Christians.
05:32We're taught that we are to prepare ourselves for the coming end of days, and we will be the elite, and we will trample out over all of the ashes of all of these people that claim to be Christian and are believing in Jesus Christ.
05:47And we're manipulated to believe that believing on Jesus Christ isn't enough.
05:52They needed to believe the prophet, so therefore they're doomed.
05:54So it's a matter of perspective, but what I have decided to do for this, I'm going to put on one of my different hats.
06:03Usually, I talk about the history, and I scatter the facts as they're present.
06:08But what I have come to understand is that deliverance ministry is the issue here, and indoctrination.
06:16So when we were in the Branham cult, we were indoctrinated, and we had a Branham's flavor of deliverance ministry.
06:24We were taught that everything's an angel or a demon.
06:27If you stub your toe, that was a demon.
06:29That was out to get you.
06:31Every single thing that can happen is bad to you as a demon.
06:35Everything good is because an angel was watching.
06:37But the problem is, when you live that way, and your view is that way, you then also demonize people.
06:47And when you demonize people, you overanalyze what they say, because what if there's an accidental demon just hiding deep inside of them,
06:56and they say something that's going to draw you away from the religion that you believe?
07:00That's a demon out to get you.
07:02That person has a demon.
07:03But you can't, it's like, I use this analogy, and I don't think many people get it, but I love the show Battlestar Galactica,
07:12especially the remake in the 90s.
07:14And the evil enemy race had infiltrated the United States, but you couldn't tell.
07:20One person might look like a normal human being, but they might be this android that's out to get them.
07:26And then as they escaped the United States, well, some of them got on board.
07:30Well, which ones are good?
07:31Which ones are bad?
07:32You don't know.
07:33This type of religion manipulates you to that mindset.
07:37Everybody has the potential of being your enemy, and you have to very cautiously listen to what they say,
07:43because if you find something that you can assume is going to disagree with your belief set, that's a demon.
07:50They're demonized.
07:52That's Deliverance Ministry 101.
07:53Well, anytime I talk about the Jesus movement or John Wimber, I have put on my historian hat, and I'm just presenting the facts.
08:04But if those facts do not align with what people have been taught, well, instantly they assume I have a demon, and they shut it all off.
08:12And so for this podcast, what I have decided to do is instead of focusing that direction, I'm just going to talk about perspective, because there are, you know, some history will have to be mixed in with it, obviously.
08:26But there are some perspectives that I think people will understand as we get into it.
08:30So as we get started today, John, last episode, we talked about the shepherding movement, and I talked about that in detail because the shepherding movement is one of the main branches of the latter rain movement.
08:45And I explained to you in the last episode how one of the elders of Sharon Orphanage went and co-pastored a church with Derek Prince with support of Erne Baxter during the 1960s.
08:57And that is where the colonels, really, of shepherding movement were born.
09:01And the guys who all formed the shepherding movement had all come together and were working together by the mid-1960s, right?
09:09You'll find a lot of sources that tell you that didn't start happening until the 70s, but that's not true.
09:14They were together, and all this was started by the mid-60s, and somewhat earlier than that.
09:19The colonels of it go back to the mid-50s, but the group of them had started by the mid-60s.
09:26And Derek Prince was by far the most senior guy in it, the most prominent for popularizing the ideas and spreading it.
09:34But I said that today I was going to talk about a man named Bob Mumford a bit, and that's who I'm going to first talk about Bob Mumford before we get to the Jesus people.
09:44So Bob Mumford. Who is Bob Mumford?
09:46So you've heard us talk before in the podcast about the Elam Missionary Fellowship, right?
09:52And when we've talked about that before, we've mentioned how when the latter reign kicked off, it actually completely took over two denominations.
10:00One of the denominations that the latter reign took over was the Independent Assemblies of God, which really was the main trunk of the movement.
10:06The other denomination which they took over was the Elam Missionary Fellowship, which was not a super big group, but they were a large-sized group.
10:15They had churches both in Europe and North America.
10:19The Elam Missionary Fellowship, and the connections there back to Branhamism and everything are very important to note.
10:26William Branham, one of his very first campaign managers, was W.E. Kidson, right?
10:30He was originally the Secretary General, General Secretary of Pentecostal Assemblies that merged to form the UPC.
10:40Well, W.E. Kidson, after he worked with Branham, went and joined Elam as the pastor of one of their most important churches.
10:48And his son-in-law was a man named Henry Gordon McGee, and these two men were very important ministers in the Elam Fellowship.
10:57And so there was from the latter reign not only a latter reign influence but a very important Branhamism influence into the Elam Missionary Fellowship.
11:06And as far as I know, I mean Elam still reveres William Branham to the present day.
11:12Well, Bob Mumford comes from there.
11:13That is where Bob Mumford comes from.
11:15He comes from one of the two denominations that have been completely taken over by latter reign, which key people close to William Branham were in leadership roles in it, and were really deeply influenced by all of that stuff.
11:30That's where Bob Mumford comes from.
11:32And Bob Mumford, coming from that background, joins the shepherding movement and becomes one of the top five leaders in the shepherding movement.
11:38And he is living in California, in Los Angeles, during the summer of love when the Jesus people movement starts.
11:49And so I'm just going to set that to a side, and then we're going to start talking about the Jesus movement.
11:54And Bob Mumford is going to come back into it.
11:56But Bob Mumford is deep in latter reign.
11:58He has well-documented connections back to Branhamism, and he is connected to, you know, he's one of the five who had really worked directly with leaders out of Sharon Orphanage at one point in his past.
12:10So there he is in Los Angeles when the Jesus people movement starts.
12:13So what is the Jesus people movement?
12:16We just assume that nobody knows, John.
12:18So the Jesus people movement is basically in 1967.
12:24That was the summer of love, or two years after William Branham has died.
12:28And I don't know how many.
12:31A million kids run away from home all over America.
12:34They hitchhike to Los Angeles, and they live a carefree life of drugs, sex, and rock and roll on the streets all summer long.
12:45I mean, that's the summer of love, John.
12:47And, you know, they're high on LSD and everything else, you know.
12:53They are practicing nudism, you know.
12:56I mean, it is just, you know, from the message perspective, it's very hard to wrap your mind around what that was.
13:03But that's what it was, you know.
13:06And as that's happening, you have the Jesus movement starts there.
13:10There are people doing Christian outreach to that group to try and, I don't know.
13:18I'm sure they might have had some good motives, right?
13:20These are kids who have run away from home.
13:21A lot of them are hungry.
13:23They have nowhere to live.
13:25And a lot of the way that the early Jesus people attracted all of their people was they were offering free meals and places to stay.
13:33To all these homeless, hungry hippies.
13:36Okay?
13:37And the hungry, homeless hippies wanted some food and a roof.
13:42And so they would come and endure a sermon in order to get some free food.
13:46I mean, this is how it started.
13:47I mean, I know a lot of people, I think they kind of, from my perspective, they spiritualize it and all this stuff.
13:54I don't really see that.
13:55I see a bunch of hungry people, John, looking for a free meal.
13:58And then God maybe used a free meal to save their souls at the end of the day.
14:02But here they come, you know, for free meals.
14:04And they attract a lot of people.
14:07And there are a number of people there in the Los Angeles area who are getting in on that action.
14:14And, of course, we know Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, all that in that point in time.
14:20But I really especially want to focus on Lonnie Frisbee.
14:23So Lonnie Frisbee, if you look at most histories, Lonnie Frisbee, they will call him the face of the Jesus movement.
14:30And they'll call him the catalyzing figure of the Jesus movement.
14:33He is perhaps the most critical person to the whole thing.
14:38Now, that's not to say that other people weren't important, like other people, I think, truly were equally important.
14:45But Lonnie Frisbee was critical to this thing at the beginning, right?
14:50And as this kicks off, Lonnie Frisbee gets invited in to work with Chuck Smith at Calvary Chapel at the very beginning, essentially.
15:02And becomes a notable face in the Jesus movement very early on.
15:09Well, Lonnie Frisbee was in the shepherding movement, John.
15:14Lonnie Frisbee was a disciple of Bob Mumford.
15:16Lonnie Frisbee, so from the very beginning, the key figures in the Jesus people movement came straight out, were out of the shepherding movement.
15:25And I would go so far as to say Lonnie Frisbee was a lifelong shepherding disciple, even.
15:31He, at a certain point, he packed up and he moved to Fort Lauderdale.
15:36And he sat under the direct mentorship of Derek Prince for, I think, three or four years, even, right, through all of this.
15:43And so, what you have, John, in the early days, as the Jesus people kicks off, I feel like, to some extent, the shepherding movement targeted even Lonnie Frisbee for recruitment in those days.
15:55They came after him.
15:57And if you read through, like, you know, even Lonnie Frisbee's testimonies and stuff, I think it's fair to say that they targeted Lonnie Frisbee for recruitment.
16:04Because Bob Mumford and several of the others of the top leaders of the shepherding movement, they had been approaching Chuck Smith.
16:12And they had been trying to get invitations to speak at the Jesus people conventions.
16:17And Chuck Smith rebuffed them, wouldn't let them speak.
16:21You know, and we can debate Chuck Smith's motives, right, around all of that.
16:26But whatever the case, Chuck Smith would not let the shepherding leaders come speak at his Jesus people events.
16:34And so they started using Lonnie Frisbee as a backdoor, John.
16:37That's absolutely what they did.
16:40They used Lonnie Frisbee as a backdoor to get access to the Jesus people.
16:44And so they would use Lonnie Frisbee on the sidelines to have Jesus people events outside of Calvary Chapel in which Lonnie Frisbee would attract the people.
16:54And he would share the stage with the headlining top shepherding movement guys.
16:57And so from the very beginning, you have a faction of the Jesus people who are being deeply influenced by the shepherding movement, John.
17:05And to be honest, a whole lot of that has to do with the whole breakdown in the relationship between Chuck Smith and Lonnie Frisbee.
17:13Essentially, the breakdown of relationship was the early leaders there around Chuck Smith rejected the shepherding movement influence and they were unhappy with Lonnie Frisbee.
17:27It wasn't simply that Lonnie Frisbee was just into, you know, miracles and stuff.
17:31Lonnie Frisbee was in the shepherding movement and he was bringing in the top leading guys of the shepherding movement.
17:36And they actually had some, you know, pretty strong disagreements over that stuff.
17:40And that is why they, a big part of why they initially parted company.
17:46Now, there's a whole lot more a person can say about that, John.
17:50There's a whole lot more a person could say about Chuck Smith there, you know.
17:54But essentially, somewhere along the way, Calvary Chapel did start to kind of reject that shepherding movement influence.
18:03But that influence remained in the Jesus movement and it moved on to another stage, which we're going to talk about here in a few minutes later.
18:10And that stage that was rejected by Calvary Chapel, you know, and they went on their path, the stage, the piece that was rejected, that is what then leads on the critical path to the new apostolic reformation.
18:21So let's talk a minute about perspective, Charles.
18:25You are an oddity.
18:27And for those who think I just insulted Charles, this is actually a compliment in this case.
18:32So we left a destructive cult, the cult following of William Branham.
18:36And when you leave a cult, there are people who really need help.
18:40And at the same time, there are people who their internal makeup, their personality is that to be a leader.
18:47Yet in the cult, that leadership was really suppressed.
18:51And you had rank and file members who were told you're nothing.
18:55But if you knew the prophet, you had instant leadership.
18:58That's how it worked.
19:00Well, when you leave, the door opens and suddenly you find yourself in a position where you can help other people.
19:07Well, the problem is, and this is a widespread problem from my own personal opinion and assessment,
19:15there are people who were indoctrinated in the cult following of William Branham.
19:19Then when they leave, they realize and recognize that many of the things that they were taught was completely false.
19:27And they wipe them away.
19:28But they leave many elements of the foundation intact.
19:32So when they leave and they start to lead, if they try to become a spiritual guide to people who have left,
19:40yes, they've wiped away some of the false things.
19:43But their foundation is still very much aligned with what Branhamism had.
19:48And this turns into a huge problem because they've not really reexamined their doctrine.
19:53Charles is an oddity because he has.
19:55And so, you know, you can clearly hear it on the podcast.
19:58So take that perspective and apply it to the shepherding movement.
20:03So here's a movement that is led by figures, like you said, that were deeply connected to William Branham.
20:09Arne Baxter was Branham's partner in all of this.
20:13And from the perspective of people who had no issues with this, had a good time with the shepherding movement,
20:21I've had people tell me this was a wonderful thing.
20:25Their perspective is it's good.
20:27These people, yes, they had some similarities between Branhamism, but this was nothing like Branhamism.
20:33But on the flip side, you talk to anybody who has been burned by the destructive nature of the shepherding movement,
20:40they'll tell you this was Branhamism 2.0.
20:43They were doing the same things, but they had shifted their doctrine some.
20:47And what they're describing essentially is these men left Branhamism, they did not clear their foundation,
20:54they did not build proper theological roots, but they shifted doctrine enough so it looked very much different.
21:02And here you have Chuck Smith, who was Paul Cain's campaign manager.
21:07Who was Paul Cain?
21:09Paul Cain was one of the figures who William Branham trusted to go into other countries in his stead.
21:16He was basically Branham's protege.
21:19So Chuck Smith is managing Paul Cain.
21:21He's seeing Branhamism.
21:22He knows what Branhamism is.
21:24He leaves Branhamism.
21:26And like you said, there's this weird rift that happens here.
21:29He is very much in that position, kind of like me.
21:33He's looking at all of this stuff, and he's seeing that a lot of this that I see in the shepherding movement,
21:40it really matches that that I had in Branhamism.
21:42But yet at the same time, Chuck Smith still has that influence.
21:48And so it's very much like multiple people leaving a cult.
21:52Each one has a different perspective.
21:54And depending on whether you enjoyed it or whether you were burned by it, it changes your viewpoint.
22:01And for me, looking at it from the outside looking in, all I see is it is a continuation that got better in some ways, retained the bad in some ways.
22:12But at the same time, it became different.
22:15And as you look at how it became different, it turns into this weird oddity that develops into eventually into the NAR.
22:23But it develops into this weird mess where you're following hippies and drug addicts and nudists and who knows what all else.
22:32In Chuck Smith's defense, he's doing this, and he's trying to separate himself from what was Branhamism.
22:38But at its core, as we'll get into it, this deliverance theme that is here, there are elements of that that continue into the ministry.
22:47Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
23:01You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
23:08On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
23:23You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
23:28If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.
23:36And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
23:42On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
23:47I try to be very specific, especially when we talk about the groups that's outside of the message who are still around in a big way.
23:58And I try to be very specific.
24:00So the message was not a cult because we had a prophet who told us a bunch of made-up stories.
24:06That's not what made it a cult.
24:08We weren't a cult because William Branham told us a bunch of fake stories.
24:11We were a cult because of the structure that enabled all the abuse and empowered the leaders and brainwashed the people.
24:19That is what made the message a cult.
24:21And for me, John, as I've mentioned quite a number of times, I have, in my viewpoint, I can kind of boil it back to three things.
24:30In combination, produce the cult in the message.
24:33And I believe it's the same three things that make it a cult everywhere else it goes in this ideology.
24:38Number one, you need your authoritarian leadership model.
24:40Five-fold ministry is that authoritarian leadership model.
24:44You need the brainwashing tool.
24:45That's what positive confession is, which lays at the very heart of those deliverance teachings.
24:50Positive confession is a brainwashing technique.
24:53And the last thing you need, though, is you need that carrot that everybody's chasing that produces a lot of radical behavior.
25:02And in the message in these other groups, that's the manifested sons of God.
25:05And you need all three of those things together, I think, in order to get the most destructive outcomes of this ideology.
25:13You look anywhere those three things go together, it inevitably ends up in a destructive cult.
25:20There is not a group in the world with those three things that has not turned into a destructive cult.
25:24It's not out there, right?
25:25It's not out there.
25:26And when you look at the shepherding movement, John, they had the authoritarian leadership model, five-fold.
25:34They had the positive confession strong, but you know what?
25:36They had a very weak version of manifested sons of God, okay, compared to the rest of the latter rain movement.
25:42They had a very watered-down version of that.
25:46And that naturally produces somewhat of a different phase depending on how much an individual shepherding group went into manifested sons of God.
25:54Some of them went into it a lot, and they became like the assembly body of Christ.
25:58And they are absolute nuts who do horrible things to children, you know?
26:04But others never went quite that deep into it, right?
26:07Like you look maybe at Charles Simpson's group, right?
26:10Like they didn't quite go so deep into manifested sons of God and therefore a little less crazy.
26:15Well, when you look at the Jesus movement, John, they took the influence through Lonnie Frisbee and these others we're going to talk about.
26:23They took in the five-fold ministry.
26:25They imbibed that.
26:27They also imbibed the positive confession out of the early shepherding movement.
26:32But they also had almost no manifested sons of God concept in their early days, okay?
26:39And the absence of that or in any sort of a strong way in their early days, I think, helped keep it from being too destructive at the very first.
26:49Now, manifested sons of God is going to make its comeback into these groups, and we'll talk through that.
26:54I don't know that we'll get there in this episode, but it's the bringing in of that influence, which happens a couple decades later, that starts them down the path that produces the new apostolic reformation.
27:06But when you're back there at the beginning, you know, in the early days around Lonnie Frisbee and the people around him, he's not the only ones.
27:14You know, Scott Ross is another prominent early shepherding hippie guy who imbibed all this.
27:21You know, and we're going to talk about John Wimber.
27:24John Wimber is another guy who went down this road.
27:26In fact, he's the most important one of all who went down this road.
27:28They imbibe this stuff, and they bring it in, and they start to produce a faction of the Jesus People movement who ends up breaking away from Calvary Chapel.
27:40And let me go just a little bit deeper, too.
27:44So, where is Calvary Chapel headquartered, and where was Lonnie Frisbee at, you know, when all this stuff started?
27:51Costa Mesa, California.
27:54Now, who else is headquartered in Costa Mesa, California?
28:00The full gospel businessmen.
28:02Ladies and gentlemen, this is not a coincidence.
28:04This is not a coincidence.
28:07The full gospel businessmen were right there, and the full gospel businessmen were doing conferences then,
28:15and the shepherding movement leaders came there to the full gospel businessmen to do their stuff.
28:21I mean, the full gospel businessmen were very supportive of shepherding people back at the beginning of all this.
28:27And the shepherding leaders were also in Costa Mesa because the full gospel businessmen headquarters were there.
28:32They were frequently there, and that's how they were intersecting with the early Jesus movement.
28:37And I'm telling you, they targeted Lonnie Frisbee for recruitment, and you can even go back.
28:42They threw a lot of money at Lonnie Frisbee.
28:44Different full gospel business leaders gave Lonnie Frisbee tens of thousands of dollars back then.
28:50They primed the pump to get him to let them in, okay?
28:54And that's exactly what happened on the sidelines of this thing.
28:58Lonnie Frisbee took their money, went with them, did things on the sidelines, had big events,
29:05and people from Calvary Chapel followed him and other hippies and were at these events,
29:12and then he would share the stage with shepherding leaders.
29:14And they would do the deliverance stuff.
29:16They would do the five-fold ministry stuff.
29:18They would teach latter rain stuff to the people.
29:19And they imbibed on that.
29:22And John, I mean, I think, again, this is going to sound so judgmental,
29:28but I really don't mean it to be judgmental.
29:30I just mean it to be an honest assessment.
29:32You have a lot of young people who have a track record of irresponsibility and non-seriousness.
29:42There are people who have run away from home.
29:44There are people who are doing drugs.
29:45There are people who are living a free love lifestyle.
29:47I mean, there's a lot there that says to me that these are people who are not very serious thinkers, okay?
29:54And they're the perfect target audience for these shepherding guys.
30:00You guys need maturity.
30:02We are going to help you guys become mature.
30:04We're going to help you grow spiritually.
30:06And here is our shepherding practices.
30:08Here is our deliverance practices.
30:10Here's all our stuff that's going to really help you guys, you young baby Christians, to finally mature up.
30:15It has a draw.
30:17It has a selling point to them, and that's exactly what sold them on it, a lot of them,
30:22was because it seemed like a solution to them to mature in their Christian walk, right?
30:30And it appealed to them, but not being from a strong Christian background or anything,
30:35a lot of them just fell to the siren song of it.
30:38And, again, you know, we could talk about Chuck Smith a lot.
30:42I'm reluctant to do so, but whatever reason, you're right.
30:49Chuck Smith was in this ideology in the past.
30:51He absolutely was.
30:52That's why he don't talk a lot about the early years of his ministry, right?
30:56Chuck Smith, all his biographies basically start in 1967.
30:59But he changed his mind for whatever reason, and we can question his motives or what have you,
31:07but for whatever reason, he changed his mind on this stuff, and he resists the shepherding people,
31:12and he takes a branch of the Jesus people movement in a reformative route away from these three things,
31:21away from positive confession, away from five-fold ministry, and away from manifested sons of God.
31:26He leads a group away from it, while it's another group who is influenced by Scott Ross and Lonnie Frisbee and John Wimber,
31:34who we're going to talk about.
31:35They branch away, John, and they produce the Vineyard Movement.
31:39The Vineyard Movement.
31:40The Vineyard Movement is the branch of the Jesus people who broke away over this stuff.
31:44And what happened is, as Lonnie Frisbee had his fallout with Chuck Smith,
31:51he decides to go to Calvary Chapel in Anaheim.
31:55So Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith, or that church was part of the Calvary Chapel denomination.
32:00So Lonnie Frisbee is kicked out, more or less, of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa,
32:06but then he decides to go to the one in Anaheim, which is roughly 15 miles away from Costa Mesa, John.
32:11And anybody who wants to go with Lonnie Frisbee to the new church, guess what?
32:16They go with him to the new church.
32:18And who's the pastor of that church?
32:20John Wimber.
32:21John Wimber is the pastor of Calvary Chapel in Anaheim.
32:25And as time proceeds, John Wimber allows, whereas Chuck Smith pushes back and doesn't want the shepherding influences,
32:32John Wimber opens his doors to it.
32:35He lets Lonnie Frisbee, you know, build his nest there for a while and all that.
32:39And all of that people that are influenced by that gradually migrate into what is going to turn into the vineyard movement.
32:49And John Wimber's throwed open the doors and he's going, yes, Bob Mumford, come preach for us.
32:54Yes, Derek Prince, come visit us.
32:56He throws open his doors to it.
32:58And he also throws open his doors to the full gospel businessmen and all the money that comes with that.
33:03And so you've got full gospel businessmen money.
33:07Remember, a third of the full gospel businessmen is controlled by the message cult.
33:10Full gospel businessmen money pouring into what's going to become the vineyard movement.
33:14You've got the convergence of the shepherding movement leaders into it.
33:19And you have Lonnie Frisbee and a few other figures like that that are really key to pulling in that early part of the Jesus movement,
33:27who's been influenced by those things, into what is going to turn into the vineyard movement.
33:32And all that's happening in the mid to late 1970s, John.
33:36So back to perspective.
33:38I'm trying to avoid outright saying some of the things, but hopefully I can give examples and people can understand it.
33:44So you and I are sitting in a house on vacation and you look out the window and you see mountains and you see this violent storm coming across the mountains.
33:54And it's really dark where the shadows from the clouds are.
33:58Well, I'm on the other side of the house and I look out the front window and I see nothing but sunshine.
34:03Later, if we describe what happened, you say, well, it was awful.
34:07It was just it was terrible storms and raining.
34:09And I'm looking out saying, well, it's sunshine is it that's happy.
34:13I see flowers and trees and our perspective.
34:17Neither one of us are lying.
34:18We're both saying exactly what we saw.
34:20But as our perspective is molded by what we see, it becomes vastly different.
34:27The same thing happens doctrinally.
34:30People experience things.
34:32John John Wimber called it the feels.
34:34He experienced things.
34:35And this was a good thing.
34:36People who had those same quote unquote feels, they, too, might say it's a good thing.
34:43People who were suffering, the people who realize the destructive nature, they would say, no, this was awful.
34:49This was terrible.
34:50Are both lying?
34:51No, it's different perspectives.
34:53Right.
34:55I have I'm in contact with many, many people.
34:58And this is a conversation probably for a future podcast.
35:01But I'm in contact with people who were in the John Wimber meetings in the UK.
35:07And he was there with I don't think Paul Cain was there.
35:11I think Cain had came before and primed the event.
35:14But Wimber's there with the Kansas City Fellowship guys, Mike Bickle and these guys.
35:21And he's promoting basically Branhamism 2.0 to the people who've left the cults that emerged after that.
35:29They will say that was the worst destructive thing that ever happened to us.
35:32This is awful.
35:33So their views of John Wimber are this way.
35:36And they would say as they enter into mainstream churches, they would say his views on the kingdom were just so anti-biblical.
35:44And that's what they saw.
35:45That was their perspective.
35:46But there are people who are in the United States who are watching the happy, feel good, you know, everybody live free and die happy kind of thing.
35:55They're saying, well, no, this is a good thing.
35:57This is this is blessed.
35:59God is in our presence.
36:00But when you're building those foundations of doctrine with all of these people, going back to the time period that you're talking about, there is so much Branham influence.
36:11It's very hard to ignore that.
36:13And when you're in the feel good state where you're you're literally shaping your doctrine off of the emotions rather than off of the scriptures, you don't catch it as things start to slip in that aren't biblical.
36:28You start to associate the things that you feel experience.
36:32You associate that with God.
36:34And as the doctrine shifts away from the Bible, you associate the two together.
36:38So in their head, they think these doctrines are biblical and it begins to move in this weird direction to those who are suffering and those who are being oppressed by the movement.
36:48They're saying, no, this is this is shifting so far away from the Bible.
36:52They don't know what they're doing.
36:53So two different perspectives is what you have going here.
36:56And like you just said, the full gospel of business, man, it's right there, co-founded by I think you've mentioned this a previous podcast is co-founded by a Branhamite, not far like 15 minutes from my house.
37:09I think he's closer to your house where they where they were.
37:11So this thing is being developed and shaped by Branhamites, but yet it's combining with the Jesus people and it's shifting into something that if a scholar were to look at this, they would say, this is nothing like Branhamism.
37:26This is a completely separate movement.
37:28But for people like you and I, our perspective is, well, we know Branhamism.
37:31We know the foundation that's being laid.
37:34Yes, they went far different, but at its core, the structures, the cult structures that were created, those elements were somehow creeping into this mess.
37:45Let me help with perspective here just a little bit.
37:47I come from I am formerly the associate pastor of the second oldest message church in the world.
37:53My church was launched with financial support from the full gospel businessman.
37:58Minor Argenbright's family helped sponsor the launch of the message church I come from, John.
38:03Okay, Minor Argenbright, the co-founder of the full gospel businessman, who was still a senior leader on the board when the Jesus people's movement started.
38:12And they also sponsored the money for Lottie Frisbee and John Wimber and all.
38:16Okay, and so I know there's this there's this thought that, oh, you guys don't know what you're talking about.
38:22Oh, there's no connection here.
38:23No, you are you are very badly confused.
38:25You're silly.
38:26No, it is connected.
38:28There is the connections.
38:29They exist.
38:30This is not a distant, a distant thing.
38:35It's very closely connected.
38:37And you have, John, I think the right way to look at it is within the larger Jesus people movement, you have a smaller faction who has been influenced by latter rain ideology via the shepherding movement, via the full gospel businessman.
38:54And that branch, and here's the thing, I don't know, I don't know how much of it is it.
38:59I mean, is it half the Jesus people movement?
39:01Is it 10%?
39:01I don't really have a good feel, right?
39:03But a percentage of that Jesus people movement who respected Lonnie Frisbee, who respected that ideology early on, they migrate into what is going to turn into the vineyard movement.
39:17Now, are they the only faction in the vineyard movement?
39:19No, they're not the only faction in the vineyard movement.
39:22But they're there.
39:23And they're an influence within it, right?
39:24They were a faction of the Jesus people movement.
39:27They're a faction of the vineyard movement.
39:30And in our next episode, John, we're going to spend probably most of that episode talking about the vineyard movement and how the NAR gets started and what happens there.
39:40But the NAR started in the vineyard movement.
39:43The New Apostolic Reformation started in the vineyard churches.
39:46That's where it started.
39:48And it started when multiple branches of the latter rain movement recombined within the vineyard movement.
39:54And what I'm trying to explain to you here is you already have the shepherding influence coming in, right?
39:59And they've got a strong five-fold ministry influence.
40:02They've got a strong deliverance, positive confession stuff.
40:05You've got that at the start via the shepherding movement.
40:08But the manifested sons of God piece is going to come back into them via another branch of the latter rain movement, John 1, which we know well.
40:14And we'll talk about it in our next episode.
40:16But when the vineyard movement invites in another branch of the latter rain movement who's going to bring in the manifested sons of God, when those all come back in combination together, they are going to birth the New Apostolic Reformation.
40:31We'll talk through that in the next episode, how it happens.
40:33But at this stage, back in the 70s, it's very – it's not a movement.
40:40You're right.
40:41There's a lot of things that are not like the message.
40:43There are a lot of things that are not exactly like the shepherding movement.
40:46But what makes it a cult?
40:50The authoritarian leadership model, five-fold ministry, the brainwashing stuff.
40:53And guess what they're absorbing in from the shepherding movement?
40:57Guess what they're absorbing in from the latter?
40:58They're absorbing in the elements that create the cult.
41:01That is what they're absorbing in back in that day.
41:05And to me, it's sad.
41:07Like, I mean, I've listened to – I've listened to a fair bit of, like, Lonnie Frisbee sermons.
41:11They're recorded.
41:12You can listen to them.
41:13I've listened to a fair bit of John Wimber sermons from back in the, you know, the 70s and early 80s.
41:18And I'm sad listening to those things, John.
41:22Like, I'm like, oh, my goodness.
41:24These people are being sucked into something that they have no idea what they are getting into.
41:28And I really think – that is my honest take.
41:32I mean, the shepherding leaders targeted some key guys in the early Jesus people for recruitment.
41:38They used that to gather a Lateran-influenced set of believers within the early Jesus people.
41:47And that more or less ended up splitting off into the vineyard movement.
41:51And I'll be clear.
41:53I mean, the vineyard movement today has also reformed somewhat, but then other parts it hasn't.
41:58There are corners of the vineyard movement today, John, that are absolutely a horrible cult.
42:02I mean, you can just look at online some of the stuff.
42:04Some corners of the vineyard movement are absolutely a destructive cult today.
42:09And then other aspects of the vineyard movement are more like normal churches, right?
42:14So it's very hard to talk about it because they're very big movements, right?
42:18The vineyard movement is roughly the same size as the global message community.
42:23I think the message might be a little bigger overall than the vineyard movement.
42:26But you know how much diversity there is within the message, right?
42:29Well, the same thing within the vineyard movement.
42:31There's a lot of diversity in there.
42:33And you've got the absolute crazy wing of it.
42:36And then you've got the more normal wing of it.
42:39And maybe in our next episode we can talk about why, somewhat, why those distinctions are in there.
42:47But I don't know, John.
42:48What do you think?
42:49I mean, to me, I'm just so reluctant to talk about these things.
42:52I really am reluctant to talk about these things.
42:55Because, I mean, it is so obvious, the problems, right?
42:58And yes, when you're in these movements, they are your whole life.
43:02They are your whole world.
43:03They are your identity.
43:05And it's very hard to recognize problems when you are in this ideology.
43:12And, you know, people in vineyard primarily all adhere to positive confession, right?
43:17Like, they're brainwashed, you know, a lot of them.
43:20I mean, it's just the reality of it.
43:22And a lot of them who've imbibed the five-fold ministry model are under authoritarian leadership.
43:28And to the extent that they've embraced manifested sons of God, they are a crazy cult.
43:32I mean, that's just kind of the reality of it.
43:36It's sad.
43:37It is sad.
43:38You know, I've had long conversations with people that were affected by the results of all of this.
43:43If you follow it out to what this type of movement developed into, it becomes a cult of emotion.
43:50And emotion is one of the most powerful things to keep your mind and soul trapped.
43:56If you can trap their emotion, if you can give them emotions of fear, if they leave,
44:00if you can give them the emotions of comfort, false comfort when they're in it,
44:04it is very, very damaging to a person.
44:07I recently, it was just this Friday, which it'll be long before this comes out,
44:12but I had a conversation with a guy in Germany, and I think we called it the charismatic cult of emotion.
44:19He's describing the fruits of what we're talking about here.
44:22These feels, if you trap your whole mind, body, and spirit off of thinking that it's the feelings that make it spiritual,
44:33well, destructive leadership can take that, and they can do anything that they want with you.
44:38And the problem is, once your mind has been indoctrinated to believe that that is a Christian thing,
44:47and that anybody who opposes it, they're filled with a demon, and you demonize them,
44:51you're trapped by that emotion, and nobody can tell you any different.
44:56So for everybody who's outside looking in, who's never been part of this,
44:59they look at everything that you and I are saying,
45:02and they would say, John, why do you need to speak from perspective?
45:06You can just simply state the facts, and the people will just understand it,
45:11but it's not that way.
45:12When you're indoctrinated, the facts mean nothing,
45:15because the person who's giving you the absolute truth might have a demon,
45:20so I'm going to reject their facts.
45:22And that's the fruit of all of this.
45:24It demonizes people, and it shuts your brain off.
45:27That's the key to understand.
45:29And your brain gets shut off when you get in this type of emotion.
45:33As I kind of said at the start of our last episode,
45:36going through the other branches of the latter ray movement, like we're doing here,
45:42to me it's an exercise primarily in identifying where is it safe for me to go,
45:47having left the message.
45:49Because I don't want to join another cult, right?
45:51And I feel like I recognize the pillars that made the message a cult.
45:56And I don't want to go to another place that has those pillars.
45:59You're not going to catch me going to a five-fold ministry,
46:01positive confession, manifested, sons of God church.
46:04That ain't happening, John.
46:06You can't drag me into a place like that.
46:08Good gracious.
46:09And to me, those are really the three key elements that I trace in the ideology.
46:17And, you know, what can you say?
46:21I mean, so the vineyard movement has that in spades.
46:25They have those three things in spades.
46:27Whereas the branch of the Jesus people movement that ended up following the influence of men like Chuck Smith,
46:34they reformed all that out.
46:35They don't have all that, right?
46:37And so while, well, I just want to be very careful here.
46:40You know, when we look at the Jesus people movement,
46:42there is a branch that did imbibe this ideology and go crazy with it.
46:47But then there's another branch of the Jesus people who took a reformative route at a certain point
46:52and decided they didn't want it and pushed it out.
46:55And so I want to make that distinctive distinction.
46:58And there's so many complicated legacies with the people in this movement, John.
47:04I mean, Derrick Prince had a complicated legacy,
47:07but some of the people in the Jesus movement have equally complicated legacies.
47:11Like John Wimber has a very complicated legacy.
47:14Because guess what?
47:15At the end of John Wimber's life, he renounced all this stuff, right?
47:18We'll talk about that in our next episode, too.
47:21And so in that respect, in some ways, John,
47:23I don't think I'm saying anything John Wimber wouldn't say himself now, right?
47:26Because on his deathbed, right, he wrote those pastoral letters in which he said,
47:31yeah, this was all a bad idea, you know?
47:33And so I know there may be people in the comments who are like,
47:38oh, you're talking bad about John Wimber.
47:40No, I am agreeing with John Wimber.
47:43I am agreeing with what he said at the end of his life about all this stuff.
47:47The same as Derrick Prince at the end of his life.
47:49And so what I would do, if you're from the Vineyard movement,
47:52I would strongly encourage you to go get the pastoral letters
47:56that John Wimber wrote at the end of his life about all this stuff
47:58when he renounced it all.
48:01And consider, have you really taken heed to those letters
48:06and renounced this ideology?
48:08And I would strongly encourage you to if you haven't.
48:11So one last time back to perspective.
48:13My friends in the UK who were influenced by the John Wimber meetings in the UK
48:19were watching as John Wimber's praising destructive cult leaders
48:24like Mike Bickle, who's teaching basically Branhamism 2.0.
48:28And they're not aware of the John Wimber letters.
48:31So from their perspective, it doesn't matter if he wrote it on his deathbed or not.
48:35All that they know is that they were involved in destructive cults
48:41that were a result, a direct result of John Wimber's meetings in the UK.
48:45This thing had, it produced fruit.
48:47And that fruit was very destructive.
48:49So from their perspective, it doesn't matter if he wrote a letter or not.
48:53What good does the letter do after the movement has grown and lives have been ruined?
48:57Their perspective is much different from people here who came after all of this
49:03and they didn't see the aftermath.
49:04And all they saw was, well, there's this letter.
49:06He rejected the whole thing.
49:08So two different perspectives.
49:10Is one right?
49:11Is one wrong?
49:12Both are right.
49:13Yes, he wrote a letter.
49:15But to the person who has suffered because of all of this,
49:19that person needs to also be recognized.
49:22The point I'm trying to make in all of this is that the history is very important.
49:27If you try to erase the bad parts of history, history will repeat itself.
49:32You have to document the history.
49:35If I do something bad, it needs to be documented.
49:37If I say something wrong, it needs to be documented.
49:39And I try to do that on the website.
49:41When I say something that's incorrect, I will try to correct it.
49:46And as best I can, try to spread information that, yeah, what I said,
49:49it was off the mark just a little bit.
49:51Try to correct the history so I don't repeat the mistakes
49:54and so somebody else don't find it and repeat it.
49:57What happens if I write a whole slew of false information on my website
50:03or in my blogs or my podcast and wait till my very death
50:07and write a letter and say, well, half of what I wrote was wrong?
50:10That influence is already out there, right?
50:13So as we get into this further, which I look forward to the next episode,
50:17keep the perspective in mind, and then I'll shift back to actual focusing on history
50:23and talking about the things that really happened, the history as it was documented.
50:28A couple parting notes before we wrap up, John.
50:30You know, one is this ideology takes time to produce destruction.
50:36Like, nobody joins a cult.
50:38Hey, join us, ladies and gentlemen.
50:39We're going to ruin your lives.
50:41You know, that's not a sales pitch.
50:43They start out with noble aims, right?
50:45But over time, the ideology naturally delivers destruction, right?
50:50Because that's just the nature of the framework and the ideology.
50:54People join with wonderful motives, right?
50:56And wonderful intentions.
50:58But you put good people in a bad system, the bad system wins.
51:01And it takes time for these groups to degenerate.
51:05It took time for the message to degenerate into what it became.
51:09It took time for the shepherding movement to degenerate into what it became.
51:12It took time for all of these branches of the latter rain movement to degenerate into what they became.
51:18And when the Jesus people movement first imbibed this,
51:21they weren't necessarily so destructive at first.
51:23It took time for them to build up to the 1980s and 1990s.
51:27It took 25 years, roughly, for them to start entering into the really destructive cycle of this ideology.
51:35And that's when John Wimper decided to recant it all, when they finally hit the bust cycle, right?
51:40And that is important to recognize.
51:45And you may have come in in the early days, right?
51:49And you maybe missed some of that.
51:50You may have came in after the reform of these things happened.
51:53But there was a cycle of this where it was a boom and a bust destruction cycle that did happen in the vineyard movement.
52:02We'll talk about that in our next episode.
52:04One last thing, John, before we close out today.
52:07I've mainly just been going through Chapter 10 in my book, Come Out Over My People, Volume 2.
52:11But I want to point to two other books if people want resources.
52:14One book I'll point you to is The Shepherding Movement by David Moore.
52:18This is a pretty good book.
52:20It talks about all these connections to the Jesus People Movement that I'm telling you about.
52:25The one caveat I point you to, a problem in this book, is this gentleman didn't fully understand the origin of the Shepherding Movement.
52:32I don't think he realized that all the Shepherding guys were working together already by the mid-60s.
52:37So he kind of puts the start of it in the early 70s.
52:41So that's the only caveat there.
52:42But everything else in here is very good, very useful, very accurate.
52:45The other thing, I pointed to this book so many times, The New Charismatics by Michael Moriarty.
52:52This is one of the best books out there on that topic.
52:55And what's so good about this is while the Shepherding Movement, this is going to tell you how to connect some people together,
53:02this book does just a really good job of explaining how the ideology shifted and the origins of the ideology.
53:10Right?
53:10Because if you're in these movements and you're like us, John, I mean, you probably just think Five-Fold Ministry is normal.
53:17You probably just think Positive Confession is normal.
53:19This is normal.
53:20You know, every Christian does this sort of stuff.
53:22No.
53:23That's not the truth.
53:25That's not the truth.
53:27These, Five-Fold Ministry comes from the Latter Rain Movement and is only found in the branches of the Latter Rain Movement.
53:33Positive Confession is found in some other places besides the Latter Rain Movement.
53:37But, again, you got it from the common root in the Latter Rain Movement, the Positive Confession stuff.
53:42And the same with Manifested Sons of God.
53:44Manifested Sons of God, wherever it's at in the world today, is come through a branch of the Latter Rain Movement.
53:49These ideologies all have a common root in the Latter Rain Movement.
53:54And just coming to understand the history of your ideology will help you understand that, yeah, you are part of a branch of the same movement as the message.
54:04And you can analyze to see if you still have those same destructive elements in your ideology that produces all of this harm wherever it goes.
54:15Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
54:18You can find us at william-branham.org and christiangospelchurch.org.
54:23For more about the history of William Branham and the Healing Revivals, read Come Out of Her My People.
54:28And for more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
54:35Both available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
54:48And study the NAR will be in a Dollar Drive, so you can always start by making ideas come to our screen.
54:58And it's a happy new system.
55:08And a very new system.
55:12And if you're missing a little room, you can put those in the picture.
55:14We'll see you next time.
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