Skip to playerSkip to main content
William Branham Historical Research
  • 1 year ago
John and Charles discuss how the doctrines of William Branham and the Latter Rain movement evolved into the theology of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). They examine the deep connections between Branham’s message, Paul Cain’s influence, and John Wimber’s Vineyard Movement, tracing how elements like kingdom theology, power evangelism, and fivefold ministry were passed down and rebranded. Charles reflects on his personal journey out of the Message, highlighting the dangers of embracing doctrines rooted in Branham’s extra-biblical teachings, especially when they become institutionalized in church structures.

As the discussion progresses, the hosts emphasize that fivefold ministry—often considered a central doctrine in the NAR—originated in the Latter Rain movement and was further legitimized by John Wimber’s early teachings. They detail how Wimber’s later pastoral letters suggest a clear repudiation of these beliefs, even as he continued using the same language. Charles challenges listeners to investigate the roots of their theology, arguing that fivefold ministry, manifested sons of God, and positive confession form a dangerous ideological triad that has historically led to spiritual abuse and even death. Despite its appeal to many, they conclude that the NAR is built on a framework that was already flawed when it was first developed.

00:31 Hesitation to Discuss John Wimber
02:35 How the Three Latter Rain Branches Reunited
03:57 Message Cults and the “False Anointed Ones”
05:56 Paul Cain and the Outrage in Message Circles
07:20 Spying on the Vineyard
08:01 Wimber’s Role in Kingdom Theology Evolution
09:05 Five Characteristics of Kingdom Theology
16:01 Power Evangelism and Signs-Based Conversion
17:54 Use and Emphasis of Spiritual Gifts
19:00 Freeform Church Structure vs. Tradition
20:29 Repackaging the Same Latter Rain Framework
22:30 Vineyard Splits and the NAR Structure
23:35 Five-Fold Ministry Originated with Latter Rain
26:01 Five-Fold Ministry as the Route to Perfection
29:08 Where the Term “Five-Fold” Came From
30:59 Five-Fold and Manifested Sons—A Package Deal
32:54 Wimber’s Subtle Rejection of Five-Fold Ministry
35:06 Wimber’s Gradual Shift and Hidden Retractions
37:55 Did Wimber Even Write His Final Letters?
40:07 The Real Harm of the Ideology
42:10 Low vs. High Settings of Dangerous Doctrines
43:33 The Pipe Dream of Last-Day Revival
45:06 Apostolic Equipping Happened in the First Century
46:21 Book Recommendations on the NAR and Wimber
47:40 The Vineyard Schism and Paul Cain’s Prophecy
49:02 Competing Apostolic Networks Today
50:43 Wimber’s Fatal Mistake: Granting Credibility
51:37 Where to Learn More
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
–

Category

📚
Learning
Transcript
00:00Transcription by CastingWords
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:43And with me, I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend, Charles Paisley, founder of christiangospelchurch.org, and the author of Come Out of Her, My People.
00:53Charles, it's good to be back and to talk about John Wimber.
00:56However, we've had a lot of feedback, some of it good, some of it negative, but I think by and large, the majority of people are hearing things that they've just simply never heard.
01:07And you get the few outliers who are, I guess, still hardcore, let's suppress all the history, let's don't talk about this,
01:14because on some deathbed confession or whatever it was, maybe months before, weeks before, John Wimber changed his mind.
01:23So let's cover up his entire past. We get some of those as well.
01:27I'm more of a fan of let's document the history because people seem to be covering up the history in many, many various splinter groups that emerge from latter rain.
01:37So here we are today, documenting the history of John Wimber.
01:42Yeah, John, I'm ready to keep going.
01:44You know, we've got some more interesting stuff to talk about today.
01:47And I've got to preface this one the same I have prefaced everyone before we start this arc, John.
01:52I really am reluctant to talk about these guys.
01:56I really am, you know, because in one way, I don't really have a dog in the fight.
02:00You know, I don't have much to do with any of that stuff.
02:03And my main interest, as I've said all along through this, is going through these branches of the latter rain movement is an exercise in finding places that I just don't want to go when I've left the message.
02:14You know, I'm not interested in jumping into another branch of the latter rain movement that is highly likely to produce another cult.
02:23Because I firmly believe the doctrines of the latter rain movement are a cult factory, and I just don't want anything to do with that, John.
02:31And so, here we go today, John.
02:33We're talking about one of the, we're really talking about how three branches of the latter rain movement reconverged to produce the new apostolic reformation.
02:42And again, I've said before, I feel like these things are just kind of obvious, but maybe they're not.
02:47Maybe they're not.
02:48Maybe they're only obvious to people who are on the outside looking in.
02:50But we are on the outside looking in towards the new apostolic reformation.
02:55And what's really ironic about the new apostolic reformation, John, and about this third wave of Pentecostalism is, I remember when all these things happened.
03:03I mean, this all happened in our lifetime, John.
03:06And the sects of the message, especially I know the sect I come from, we were very keenly observing everything that happened.
03:13Because the events which gave birth to the new apostolic reformation actually fit into message eschatology.
03:20William Branham had a teaching, a set of sermons, called False Anointed Ones at the End Time.
03:27This is a famous message sermon.
03:28I'm sure you know all about this one, John.
03:30This is a very famous message sermon, The False Anointed Ones at the End Time.
03:35And in this sermon, William Branham, at the time, he was definitely talking about Oral Roberts and A.A. Allen.
03:40That's who his sermon was against.
03:42But over time, the cult repurposed it, you know, because it didn't really get fulfilled with Oral Roberts and A.A. Allen.
03:49But the essential concept is, in the last days, there would arise a false version of the message.
03:58And the false version of the message would be doing signs and wonders and miracles.
04:01And they would steal some of our teachings and doctrines and beliefs.
04:05And they would do a lot of things like us.
04:07But they would reject our holiness standards.
04:10And these false anointed ones would lead the masses of Christianity to damnation and the tribulation, John,
04:16while the rest of us escaped out of here, you know, in the rapture.
04:19And so when the New Apostolic Reformation began to come together, John,
04:24and the Toronto Blessing and all this stuff is happening in the New Apostolic Reformation,
04:28the people in the message are very keenly aware that it is some of our preachers going into the Vineyard Movement
04:36and these other places teaching message ideology.
04:39We're keenly aware that Paul Cain and the others were going around doing this.
04:43And we were keenly aware that they were importing elements of our belief system.
04:50And our preachers very boldly proclaimed from our platforms that the people forming the New Apostolic Reformation
04:57was the false anointed ones at the end time.
05:00And therefore, the Toronto Blessing was a sign that doomsday was upon us all, right?
05:03And we were a doomsday cult.
05:05And so they never miss an opportunity, John, to teach us all that we're all about, you know,
05:10the world's about to burn up, and so we better stay and, you know, obey the message.
05:14And so that's what the Toronto Blessing was.
05:17So we were watching all of this, and spies were sent into Vineyard and to these churches
05:23from my sect of the message to gather data and bring it back and would report back.
05:28And, you know, they'd come back and Raymond Jackson would confirm to us,
05:31yes, indeed, ladies and gentlemen, I can confirm to you, these are the false anointed ones.
05:35And that's how we looked at the New Apostolic Reformation.
05:38So we had, in real time, our cult viewpoint of what was going on in these movements, John.
05:47And so that's incredibly ironic, right?
05:50And I start that going out, and maybe, John, maybe we can put up here a few quotes.
05:56We don't have to spend a whole lot of time on this, but Paul Cain got skewered.
06:02By the time you come into the 1990s, the message was turning on Paul Cain like nobody's business.
06:07I mean, I think Lee Vale was the first one to practically burn Paul Cain in effigy
06:14for taking the beliefs of the message to the false anointed ones.
06:18I mean, there was veritable outrage across multiple sects of the message.
06:23How dare Paul Cain take our blessed, holy revelations of the message
06:29and feed the pearls and the meats and the revelations of God to the swine, right?
06:35I mean, it was like that.
06:36That is how the message viewed this whole thing.
06:39And again, I know that people in all that, they don't even know any of that happened, right?
06:44They don't even know that that's what was happening in message churches in reaction to what was going on.
06:50But there's absolutely awareness through all those years that message preachers were going to all these places
06:57and giving away our blessed revelations to the NAR, to the vineyard guys, to the Toronto blessing people.
07:05We were – that's what happened, right?
07:07That's what happened.
07:07And there's lots of recordings from preachers back then talking all about that
07:11and characterizing it that way in those years.
07:13And I think that's the closest we'll ever come to hearing that Charles was a spy.
07:20But there were no vodka martinis in Charles' case.
07:25So, you know, I don't have a dog in the fight either.
07:28Whenever I began studying Wember, it wasn't because I was studying Wember.
07:34It was mostly because I was studying Paul Cain.
07:36That's how all of this began.
07:38And specifically, I was studying exactly what you're describing.
07:43How did this splinter group emerge from the doctrines that we had from William Branham?
07:50And it's difficult because if you look at one of the NAR groups right now,
07:55their doctrines are significantly different from Branham's.
07:59But if you understand the architecture and the framework that it was developed from,
08:03you can kind of see how it evolved.
08:05But you have to look at each milestone along the way in its evolution.
08:10Wember was one of those milestones.
08:11That's really how all of this started.
08:14And I was specifically looking at the kingdom theology.
08:18Because William Branham was not teaching the dominionism like they do in the NAR.
08:23There was no seven mountains mandate in the form that it exists today.
08:29I'll just say it like that.
08:30But I was studying the kingdom theology specifically because if you look at the transmission of this thing,
08:38from what William Branham taught through what Wember taught through kingdom now,
08:43through all the way to what the NAR has as their kingdom theology,
08:48you can find how the extra biblical things that Branham taught,
08:53how those began to spin like a snowball going down a hill.
08:56And for me, each phase of its evolution, it's really the same doctrine.
09:03It just has different details surrounding the doctrine.
09:06So as I'm looking at the kingdom theology,
09:09Wember's kingdom theology to me is no different than kingdom now theology.
09:13And as I began writing the page and looking at it,
09:16I had one of the Wember cult, I don't know what you call the guy,
09:20but he basically was somebody who was wanting to set me up.
09:25And he comes in and his first attack was really the kingdom theology.
09:29He said, Wember did not teach kingdom now.
09:32And I was trying to explain, well, yes and no.
09:35The kingdom theology as it developed was very much the same.
09:39I'm glad it happened because in talking to him,
09:41I began to understand I can't really explain this
09:45without going really deep into describing that foundation.
09:49Because when I assume people see that all of this is the same,
09:53if you've been taught that this is biblical, what they teach today,
09:57well, you're not going to see all the milestones along the way.
10:01So I had to take a step back and start going deeper into the history.
10:04Part of that we're doing today, but more of it I'm continuing to do on the website.
10:09But make no mistake, Wember working with Paul Cain,
10:12that is how we developed into the mess that we see today.
10:16There's so much complexity and nuance in this all, John.
10:20And in these, even in, you know, this is what our fourth episode,
10:23we might have one more after this.
10:26There's just not adequate time to address all of the nuance of all of it.
10:32Then you've got the shepherding people themselves,
10:35you know, the shepherding preachers,
10:37the shepherding followers that Derrick Prince and Bob Muffer and those guys had converted.
10:41Some of them actually join into Vineyard as the shepherding movement implodes in the 80s.
10:45That makes a second faction.
10:47And then you get a period of time, John, as you come into the middle 80s,
10:50where the Kansas City prophets, John,
10:53and the tangled ladder rain web that they are connected to,
10:57which includes the message,
10:59they start making their entrance into Vineyard.
11:02And when they come in, John,
11:05when they come into Vineyard in the 80s,
11:08they, especially through Paul Cain,
11:11are already connected to a network of churches outside of Vineyard,
11:16which have been ladder rain churches for decades.
11:19Okay.
11:19Paul Cain comes from, you know,
11:21roots of this that have connections all the way back to Sharon Orphanage,
11:25all, you know, the very heart of the message,
11:27to the heart of William Branham's groups, all that.
11:29So, as he comes in, John,
11:31he is networking.
11:33He is networking in other of the ladder rain prophets.
11:38He's networking in other of the ladder rain preachers.
11:41He's networking in other branches of the ladder rain movement, too.
11:46All right.
11:46You've had that, you know,
11:47that really nice lady on your podcast a number of times,
11:50Laura Lynn, I think was her name.
11:51And she comes from a branch of the ladder rain ideology.
11:55Paul Cain played a role in networking all of these groups together.
12:00Because back in those days, the ladder rain factions,
12:03a lot of them had turned on each other, right?
12:06But Vineyard's, what was happening in Vineyard kind of gave a breath of fresh life into it all.
12:14And within these other branches of the movement, John,
12:17they already had the apostles.
12:19They already had the prophets.
12:20There was already a global apostolic network in the message before Vineyard even existed.
12:27There was already global apostolic networks in the ladder rain branches
12:30before Vineyard ever even got going, right?
12:34And what's happening is
12:38John Wimber is opening the doors
12:42and he's letting key figures in these pre-existing apostolic networks
12:47come into the Vineyard movement.
12:50Paul Cain being the most prominent example of this.
12:53And they're networking Vineyard churches to this movement on the outside,
12:57the ladder rain movement that's been there all along.
13:00And as all of this is happening, John,
13:01as this influence coming directly from branches of the ladder rain and Vineyard is happening,
13:07see Peter Wagner, Charles Peter Wagner,
13:10was also in Vineyard in those years.
13:13And he sees what they're doing
13:14and he says, he coins the term New Apostolic Reformation.
13:18And he coins that to see,
13:20to what he sees of these growing apostolic networks within Vineyard.
13:25And here's the thing,
13:26I think he had to realize,
13:28and John Wimber had,
13:29I think they had to realize
13:30that this thing wasn't new.
13:33They had to realize
13:34and they just, I don't know,
13:36they like to always repackage it and say it's new, right?
13:38They can't say, hey, this is the next phase of the ladder rain
13:41because they, you know,
13:42the ladder rain they knew was a crazy movement.
13:44They can't say this is the next phase of the message, right?
13:47Because they know the message is a crazy movement.
13:49But what is honestly happening, John,
13:52is the apostles and the prophets
13:55of the senior branches of the ladder rain
13:58are coming into Vineyard
14:00and commissioning new apostles
14:02and new prophets
14:03both in Vineyard
14:04and in some of the other groups in orbit of this.
14:08And what they commission in those years
14:10is the New Apostolic Reformation.
14:13And there's nothing new about it.
14:14It is just a continuation
14:15of the five-fold ministry structures
14:17of the ladder rain movement
14:19in its various iterations
14:20and its various branches.
14:22The message being one of those branches.
14:25And so,
14:26the New Apostolic Reformation,
14:28John, that's why when you and I look at it
14:30and people from our backgrounds look at it,
14:33we're like, oh my goodness,
14:34there's so many similarities.
14:35There's so much the same.
14:36And it even looks appealing.
14:37And I've even seen people, you know,
14:39from our groups like,
14:40how is it possible that these people
14:42seem so similar to us?
14:43Well, they must have had a divine revelation
14:44from God themselves.
14:45How else could they have got so much like us?
14:49Well, the answer is no.
14:50They didn't have divine revelations from God.
14:52It's their different branches
14:53of the same ideology.
14:55And they got the same ideas,
14:56the same concepts
14:57from the same root source
14:59in the ladder rain
15:00as we did.
15:02And five-fold ministry
15:03is one of the key distinctive doctrines
15:06of the ladder rain movement.
15:08And five-fold ministry
15:10is New Apostolic Reformation, John.
15:14It's the exact same thing.
15:16It's the same thing.
15:17Earlier, I said that
15:18whenever I was studying John Wember,
15:20I was looking at the kingdom theology,
15:22the framework,
15:22the architecture.
15:23And I've learned
15:25that I have to break things down.
15:27I can't just make statements like that
15:28because, by and large,
15:30people who were indoctrinated
15:31in this type of movement
15:32can't really pick it up
15:34because it takes a lot of work
15:36to do the groundwork
15:37and understand
15:38what is Christianity
15:40and how am I different from Christianity.
15:43That takes a lot of work,
15:45and honestly,
15:45it takes a lot of
15:46breaking down your pride.
15:49It took years for me
15:51to break down my pride
15:52enough to realize,
15:53well, what I believe
15:54wasn't quite right.
15:55As I'm looking at this architecture,
15:57there are five main points
15:58that I look at.
16:00The first one
16:01is the way
16:03in which the kingdom
16:04is presented
16:05with John Wember's theology
16:07and with Branham's
16:08and with NAR.
16:10There is an expectation
16:11for the supernatural.
16:13That's why you have
16:14Bethel's Supernatural School.
16:16I think they call it Hogwarts
16:17and other funny names.
16:20They use those names
16:21when you're not in this group
16:23because the expectation
16:25is for the supernatural.
16:27In mainstream Christianity,
16:29mainstream Christianity
16:30does not discard miracles.
16:33Miracles are possible,
16:34but they're viewed as rare,
16:36and they're not viewed
16:37as something that is expected
16:41in daily practice.
16:43But when you're in Branham's theology,
16:45Wember's theology, NAR,
16:46it is an expectation
16:48that daily you're going to have
16:51some sort of expectation
16:53of the supernatural,
16:54whether it's angels and demons,
16:56whether it's healing,
16:57whether it's positive confession,
16:59whatever is their model for this,
17:01they have this.
17:02The second thing
17:03is power evangelism.
17:06Wember's credited for it,
17:07but that's not where it came from.
17:10Wember got it from,
17:12likely from Paul Cain
17:14and others like Cain.
17:16Along this development,
17:19there is a notion
17:20that evangelism
17:21must be accompanied
17:23by signs and wonders.
17:25In mainstream Christianity,
17:27evangelism is focused
17:28on teaching,
17:30doctrine,
17:30personal testimony,
17:32power encounters,
17:34as if you can even
17:35really call it that.
17:36I question whether
17:37you can call it that.
17:39They're very rare
17:40in mainstream Christianity.
17:43That's why
17:43in the latter rain movement,
17:45Branham would say
17:45mainstream Christianity
17:47is cold form of religion.
17:49We are not
17:49because we have
17:50power evangelism.
17:51There's power
17:52in what we do.
17:53There's signs and wonders.
17:55They would advertise
17:56even in their meeting
17:57signs and wonders.
17:59The next thing
18:00is the use
18:01of spiritual gifts.
18:03Obviously,
18:04in the charismatic movement,
18:06that's where
18:06the core is.
18:07It's the core
18:08of what they believe
18:09in Pentecostalism,
18:11charismatic movement,
18:12NAR.
18:13It is this use
18:14of spiritual gifts.
18:16In mainstream Christianity,
18:18they still believe
18:20in the gifts,
18:21but they're not emphasized.
18:23It's not the core.
18:24In other words,
18:25the gifts are
18:26the byproduct
18:27of being a good Christian,
18:29not what makes you
18:30a good Christian.
18:31In charismatic Christianity,
18:33it is the core.
18:34In the charismatic movement,
18:35there's this concept
18:36of training to,
18:38I guess I'll use
18:39the word activate.
18:40You train to activate
18:42the supernatural.
18:43In other words,
18:44we're expecting
18:45that we're going
18:45to have this power evangelism.
18:47So if you're going
18:47to be an evangelist,
18:48you have to be trained
18:49how to activate
18:50whatever this is
18:51that you believe.
18:52Or for a rank
18:54and file member,
18:55for a lay member,
18:56there's this expectation
18:58of constant supernatural
18:59in your life.
19:00So how do you
19:01activate that?
19:01And in mainstream Christianity,
19:04because their core
19:05is not this,
19:06there's no reason
19:07to have this training.
19:08So that's sort
19:10of extra biblical.
19:11But the last thing
19:12is the church model.
19:15In latter rain,
19:16they taught
19:16that the churches,
19:18mainstream churches,
19:19were cold and formal.
19:21You go,
19:21there's a structure,
19:23you're expected
19:24to sing some songs,
19:26worship,
19:27hear a sermon,
19:28and sometimes
19:30at the end
19:30there'll be a testimony.
19:31There is a structure
19:32and an order
19:33to the service.
19:34Now it changes
19:35from denomination
19:36to denomination,
19:37but by and large
19:38there is a structure.
19:39In the model
19:40that was established
19:41by latter rain,
19:43somewhat before this
19:44in Pentecostalism,
19:45the church model
19:46is really kind
19:48of free-flowing.
19:49You have many
19:50of the elements
19:50that you see
19:51in mainstream Christianity,
19:53but there's always
19:54this dedicated time
19:55at the end
19:56for healing,
19:56deliverance,
19:58prayer line.
19:59They basically
20:00structure their services
20:02in such a way
20:03that you can see
20:03this power evangelism.
20:06And to the Wimber crowd
20:07who argues
20:08that no,
20:09the kingdom theology
20:10is different,
20:11if you understand
20:12that framework,
20:14that's how you understand
20:15Wimber's theology
20:16really is no different
20:17than kingdom now,
20:19just in the naming.
20:20And the NAR version
20:22of the kingdom theology,
20:23it's really much the same.
20:25The structure
20:25is exactly the same.
20:27It's just how
20:28it is preached,
20:31the trivial details
20:32of the doctrine
20:33and how it's implemented.
20:35Those are the differences,
20:36but the core
20:37is exactly the same.
20:39But as far as
20:40power evangelism,
20:41that goes back
20:42old in this ideology too.
20:44I mean,
20:44all the way back
20:45to the 40s,
20:45they were doing
20:46that power evangelism stuff
20:47where, yes,
20:49we're going to convert
20:49the people with signs
20:50and wonders
20:50rather than the gospel.
20:54Which is, again,
20:55we talked about
20:56in our last episode,
20:57Jesus said,
20:57a wicked and adulterous
20:58generation seeks
20:59for the sign,
21:00but the only sign given
21:01is the sign
21:02of the resurrection.
21:03As Jonas was three days
21:04and three nights
21:05in the hearts of the earth,
21:06so the Son of Man
21:06will be three days
21:07and three nights
21:07in the night of the earth.
21:08The resurrection,
21:09the gospel,
21:10is how you convert
21:11the people,
21:11not signs,
21:12wonders,
21:12and miracles.
21:13And that power evangelism,
21:14yeah,
21:15is absolutely the sort of stuff
21:16that they were promoting.
21:18I'm not aware
21:19of Chuck Smith
21:19promoting power evangelism
21:21as far as I know.
21:22I could be mistaken,
21:22but I've never come across
21:24him actually promoting that.
21:26But yeah,
21:27it's basically that
21:27they would use
21:28the gifts of the Spirit
21:29to attract the masses
21:30and do all that.
21:33Yeah,
21:33and that's deep
21:33in this ideology as well.
21:36But one of the big components
21:39of all this,
21:40and let me throw in
21:41one other thing,
21:42John.
21:42John Wimber
21:43rejected power evangelism
21:44at the end of his life too,
21:45John.
21:45We go through
21:46these Wimber letters.
21:47He rejected all this stuff
21:49in here,
21:49you know,
21:50in this book.
21:51I want to talk about this
21:52if we get time too.
21:53He changed his mind
21:54on all this stuff.
21:55Yet they still sell the books.
21:56I know.
21:57They still sell the books.
21:58Hey,
21:58you want to find
21:59where he rejects it in this?
22:00I mean,
22:00I could find you the page.
22:02But it's right about
22:03the middle of this book.
22:04He says,
22:05it's basically a section
22:06where he says,
22:06should signs lead
22:08or should signs follow?
22:10And basically,
22:11he changes his mind
22:12that no,
22:13signs shouldn't be
22:14leading the way for us.
22:16Instead,
22:17those signs should follow.
22:18Which is,
22:19I'll be honest,
22:20John,
22:20John Wimber,
22:21this is a good book.
22:22What he did in here.
22:23This is good stuff.
22:24I mean,
22:24if they would take this stuff
22:26and actually follow it,
22:26they'd be a lot better off.
22:28And the ones who have taken
22:29the stuff he said in there
22:30and follow it,
22:30they are better off.
22:32Have you ever wondered
22:34how the Pentecostal movement started
22:36or how the progression
22:37of modern Pentecostalism
22:39transitioned through
22:40the latter reign,
22:41charismatic,
22:42and other fringe movements
22:43into the new
22:44apostolic reformation?
22:46You can learn this and more
22:47on William Branham
22:48Historical Research's website,
22:51william-branham.org.
22:53On the books page
22:54of the website,
22:55you can find
22:56the compiled research
22:57of John Collins,
22:58Charles Paisley,
22:59Stephen Montgomery,
23:01John McKinnon,
23:02and others
23:02with links to the paper,
23:04audio,
23:05and digital versions
23:06of each book.
23:07You can also find
23:08resources and documentation
23:10on various people
23:11and topics
23:12related to those movements.
23:14If you want to contribute
23:15to the cause,
23:16you can support the podcast
23:17by clicking
23:18the Contribute button
23:19at the top.
23:20And as always,
23:21be sure to like
23:22and subscribe
23:23to the audio
23:24or video version
23:25that you're listening to
23:26or watching.
23:27On behalf of
23:28William Branham
23:28Historical Research,
23:30we want to thank you
23:30for your support.
23:32Coming back to
23:32Manifested Sons of God,
23:34because what makes
23:35the New Apostolic Reformation
23:36the New Apostolic Reformation
23:39isn't,
23:40to me,
23:41it isn't really
23:41Manifested Sons of God.
23:43That don't really make
23:44the New Apostolic Reformation
23:45the New Apostolic Reformation.
23:47What makes them
23:48the New Apostolic Reformation
23:49is their structure
23:50of apostles and prophets
23:52and so forth.
23:53And that is
23:54five-fold ministry.
23:55Five-fold ministry
23:57is what makes them
23:58the New Apostolic Reformation.
24:00And then,
24:01yeah,
24:01the rest,
24:01they just have
24:02their own flavor
24:02of manifested
24:03Sons of God
24:04and stuff,
24:04which also was
24:05in the message
24:05in its own way.
24:07And,
24:07John,
24:10let me talk
24:11about that
24:11just a minute
24:12because I noticed
24:14in some of the
24:14comment sections
24:15it seems like
24:18there is confusion
24:20around where
24:21five-fold ministry
24:21came from.
24:23Five-fold ministry
24:24came into this ideology
24:26via latter rain.
24:27Five-fold ministry
24:28does not exist
24:30outside of the
24:31latter rain movement
24:32and its branches.
24:34It does not exist.
24:35If you are using
24:36five-fold ministry
24:37concepts,
24:38terminology,
24:39and language,
24:40you got that
24:41from a branch
24:42of the latter rain movement.
24:43That is where
24:45it came from.
24:46And if you think
24:47you got it
24:48from somewhere else,
24:49you've been tricked,
24:50deceived,
24:50confused,
24:51you're looking at it wrong,
24:52it came from
24:52the latter rain movement.
24:54And,
24:55that is so important
24:57to wrap your mind around.
24:59Like,
24:59because
24:59five-fold ministry
25:01is one of the
25:01core distinctive doctrines
25:02of the latter rain movement.
25:04Right?
25:05And so,
25:06I know that
25:07it's important
25:09if you're in this ideology
25:10to try and justify it
25:11to say that it didn't
25:12come from the latter rain.
25:14And it's very important
25:15to find another place
25:16to reground it.
25:17But the truth
25:17of the matter is
25:18everywhere the
25:19five-fold ministry
25:20is in the world today
25:21came through
25:22the latter rain movement.
25:23They are the ones
25:24who popularized it.
25:25And the five-fold ministry
25:28has two
25:28really important pieces,
25:31John,
25:32that produced
25:34the new apostolic reformation.
25:36One piece of it
25:36is that
25:37in the past,
25:40the church lost
25:41the apostles and prophets.
25:43And in the last days,
25:44this five-fold ministry
25:45needs to be restored,
25:46which includes
25:46restoring
25:47apostles and prophets.
25:48So the very premise
25:50that apostles and prophets
25:51were lost
25:51and need to be restored,
25:53that's one component
25:54of five-fold ministry.
25:56But another component
25:57of five-fold ministry,
25:58which is equally important,
26:00John,
26:00is that they believe
26:02that the five-fold ministry
26:04is necessary
26:05to do the task
26:07of equipping the church
26:09with the powers
26:10and the signs
26:11and the wonders
26:12and the perfect unity
26:13in order to bring them
26:14into completion,
26:15perfection,
26:16maturity,
26:17the man-child.
26:18There's different ways
26:19to term it.
26:19But the five-fold ministry
26:21is the means
26:22to get the church
26:23into this
26:24completed state.
26:26And when this ideology
26:29was originally formulated,
26:31five-fold ministry
26:32was the means
26:34to get the church
26:35to manifested sons of God.
26:37They started out
26:38with the notion
26:39that we're going to get
26:40to this manifested sons
26:41of God state.
26:42And they started to go back
26:44and basically hunt
26:46and find in the Bible,
26:46how do we get there?
26:47How do we get to perfection?
26:49How do we get to completion?
26:51And they came across
26:52the verses around
26:53in Ephesians 4
26:54and they started
26:56to develop the belief
26:57that we need
26:59to restore
27:00a five-fold ministry,
27:02which is their version
27:03of what they think
27:03those verses mean.
27:05And that five-fold ministry
27:07will then perfect,
27:08complete the church,
27:09bring it into that
27:10final state
27:10of empowerment,
27:12of unity,
27:13perfect unity,
27:14perfect perfection,
27:15perfect all of this.
27:16And then in that state,
27:18that church can then
27:19achieve manifested
27:20sons of God,
27:21they can achieve
27:22the kingdom on earth,
27:24they can achieve
27:24the end-of-day scenario,
27:27right?
27:28And so,
27:29five-fold ministry
27:30has those two
27:31important pieces.
27:33The idea that the
27:34apostles and prophets
27:35need restored,
27:36therefore they're
27:36commissioning apostles
27:37and prophets,
27:38and the belief
27:38that that five-fold ministry
27:40has the special mission
27:41to complete,
27:43finish,
27:44perfect,
27:44mature the church
27:46for its end-of-day state,
27:47which empowers it.
27:48And that concept,
27:50those two elements
27:52of ideas
27:53came out of
27:54latter rain
27:55and spread far and wide.
27:57And there are ways
27:58in which the
27:59five-fold ministry
28:00beliefs evolved
28:01after you left
28:03the message,
28:04or after it left
28:05the latter rain,
28:06but it still,
28:07most of it contains
28:08those two essential concepts.
28:11And now,
28:11John,
28:11I know,
28:12like in the message
28:12where we come from,
28:13the churches you come from
28:14are the tape churches,
28:15right?
28:15And of all the sects
28:17of the message,
28:18your sect of the message
28:19was the least end
28:20of five-fold ministry,
28:22okay?
28:22But pretty well,
28:23every other sect
28:24of the message
28:25is drowning up
28:27to their eyeballs
28:28in five-fold ministry.
28:29It is the means
28:30to get to perfection.
28:32We didn't believe
28:32the means to perfection
28:33was just the tapes.
28:35The means to perfection
28:36also included
28:37the five-fold ministry.
28:38And so,
28:39these teachings
28:39are,
28:41again,
28:42I know these ones
28:42backwards and forwards
28:43too,
28:44John.
28:44And this is,
28:46a version of this
28:47is what got
28:48into the new
28:48apostolic reformation.
28:49Their first version
28:50of it came in
28:51through the Kansas City,
28:53through the shepherding
28:54movement,
28:54but then they got
28:55a new revised
28:56advanced version
28:57of it
28:57through Paul Cain
28:58and stuff
28:58when they started
28:59to intersect
28:59with the other branches
29:00of the latter rain
29:01movement.
29:02Okay?
29:02And let me say
29:03one last thing too,
29:04one last thing
29:05on five-fold ministry
29:06just to help people,
29:09okay?
29:11To put this together
29:12because it can be
29:14hard to accept
29:15what I'm saying
29:16that five-fold ministry
29:17only comes from
29:18the latter rain
29:19movement.
29:20And again,
29:20I'm going to point
29:20everybody to a book.
29:21This is a great book,
29:22The New Charismatics
29:23by Michael Moriarty.
29:25And John,
29:25the stuff you're
29:26talking about
29:26how manifested
29:29sons of God
29:30came into the NAR,
29:31this book traces
29:31that path.
29:32And you're correct.
29:33It goes through
29:33John Wimber's
29:34Kingdom Theology.
29:35Okay?
29:35That was a stepping
29:36stone into it.
29:37But this also traces
29:38how they got the
29:39five-fold ministry
29:40stuff too.
29:40And I want to encourage
29:41you to get this book,
29:42read it.
29:42It'll give you
29:43how all that happened,
29:45ladies and gentlemen.
29:46What happened,
29:48John,
29:48is I found this book
29:50while I was still
29:51in the message.
29:53And this book
29:54indeed says
29:55that five-fold ministry
29:56came from
29:56the latter rain.
29:57That's where it
29:58popularized from.
29:59And when I found this,
30:01I'm like,
30:01no,
30:02absolutely not.
30:03Can't be.
30:03Impossible.
30:04No way.
30:05He's got to be wrong.
30:06And so I did not
30:10accept that five-fold
30:11ministry came from
30:11the latter rain
30:12because this book
30:13said so.
30:13You know how I came
30:15by that belief,
30:16John?
30:16Look at these books
30:17on my shelf.
30:18I have the primary
30:19sources of all
30:21of these guys.
30:22I have the primary
30:23sources.
30:23I have the writings
30:24of the latter rain
30:25elders on my shelf
30:26over here.
30:27I got all kinds
30:28of stuff,
30:29John.
30:31Five-fold ministry
30:31came from the latter rain,
30:32John.
30:33It did.
30:33This guy's right.
30:35He was right.
30:35It did come from there.
30:37And that's what I found
30:38by looking through
30:39all the primary sources.
30:42And let me tell you,
30:43if you guys want to
30:43look this up,
30:44how to do it.
30:47When you think of
30:48terms from the Bible,
30:50five-fold ministry
30:51is not a term
30:52in the Bible,
30:52is it?
30:53Five-fold ministry
30:54is not in the Bible.
30:56There are terms
30:57that develop
30:58over time
30:59that are used
31:00as shorthand
31:01to refer to
31:02specific beliefs.
31:03There's a term,
31:04for example,
31:04like the
31:05hypostatic union.
31:08Hypostatic union
31:09is not in the Bible,
31:10right?
31:10But people use that
31:11to refer to a belief
31:12they think they see
31:14in the Bible.
31:15Five-fold ministry
31:16is the same thing.
31:17It's a term
31:18that is not
31:18in the Bible.
31:19But people use it
31:21to refer to a belief
31:23they think they see
31:24in the Bible.
31:25And you can take
31:25that term,
31:26five-fold ministry,
31:28and you can go look.
31:30Who are the people
31:31who coin that term?
31:33And you can follow
31:34through history
31:35the people using
31:36that term.
31:37And John,
31:38if you follow
31:38through history
31:39all the people
31:39using the term
31:40five-fold ministry,
31:41where do the dots
31:42converge?
31:44They converge
31:45on the Latter Rain
31:46movement.
31:47They all came out
31:48of the Latter Rain
31:49movement, John,
31:49like Derek Prince
31:51who pastored a church
31:52with one of the elders
31:53of the Sharon Orphanage,
31:55right?
31:55Or Erwin Baxter
31:56whose members
31:56of his congregation
31:57were elders
31:58of the Sharon Orphanage.
31:59Or William Branham
32:00who, the core
32:02of the early message
32:02came from
32:03the Latter Rain movement.
32:05The Latter Rain movement
32:06is where
32:07five-fold ministry
32:08beliefs came from.
32:09Now the Latter Rain movement
32:11got the beliefs
32:12out of the British Israel
32:13branch of early Pentecostalism.
32:15So they do have
32:16a past, right?
32:17You can trace it
32:18further back,
32:19a little further back
32:19through the British Israelite
32:21branch of Pentecostalism.
32:22But Latter Rain
32:23is where those ideas
32:25exploded
32:25into what they are today.
32:27And that is where
32:28people actually got
32:29them from today.
32:30And so I just encourage
32:31you, go look.
32:32If you have
32:32five-fold ministry,
32:33it's important
32:34to actually acknowledge
32:35you believe
32:36a distinctive doctrine
32:37that was developed
32:38and promoted
32:39by the Latter Rain movement.
32:40And then
32:42Manifested Sons of God
32:43being another one.
32:44And those two
32:44originally came
32:45as a package deal.
32:46Five-fold ministry
32:47was the means
32:49to get you to
32:50Manifested Sons of God.
32:52The kingdom
32:52now on earth.
32:54Okay?
32:54Alright?
32:55And that is what
32:55they got
32:56in the New Apostolic Reformation.
32:58It's what John Wimber
32:59was slowly building towards.
33:00It is the same ideology.
33:03They just changed
33:04the terminology
33:04a little bit.
33:05That's all it is.
33:06I recommend
33:07anybody who thinks
33:08that the five-fold ministry
33:09is biblical,
33:10go study
33:11what the word
33:11apostle means.
33:12Just look it up.
33:14It's a messenger
33:14that's sent out, right?
33:16Otherwise,
33:16what kind of
33:17apostle messenger
33:18are you?
33:19It's more of a hierarchy
33:20than it is describing
33:21what apostle even means.
33:24There's so much
33:24there to unpack
33:25and to work through.
33:27And if we had time,
33:29maybe we could do
33:29another episode
33:30at some point
33:31down the road
33:31and talk through
33:32some of the elements
33:33of all that.
33:34Because again,
33:34this was a core doctrine
33:36where I come from.
33:37And there's so many
33:40nuances
33:41to all of this.
33:42There's just so many nuances.
33:43A person can hardly
33:44pack them all in
33:45in just a short episode
33:49of these things.
33:50But, you know,
33:51when you come to
33:51the end of John Wimber's
33:52life, John,
33:54and you're on
33:57the other side
33:57of the Toronto blessing,
33:59you're on the other side
34:00of things starting
34:01to go crazy,
34:02well, guess what?
34:03John Wimber
34:04repudiates
34:06five-fold ministry
34:06too, John.
34:07He turns on that.
34:09So not only does he,
34:10look, here's a whole chapter
34:11in his pastoral letters
34:14on five-fold ministry.
34:16Right.
34:16John Wimber
34:17turned on these beliefs.
34:20And what is so,
34:21just like when he
34:22rejected power evangelism
34:24in this book,
34:25here he's rejecting
34:26five-fold ministry.
34:28What he's doing,
34:29John,
34:30is,
34:31and this is,
34:33again,
34:34we could call this
34:35a tad deceptive.
34:36He don't say in here,
34:37hey guys,
34:37I'm changing my mind.
34:39You have to know
34:40that he was teaching
34:41something else before.
34:42He's changing his mind here.
34:45What he says
34:45about five-fold ministry
34:46here is the opposite
34:48about what he said
34:49about five-fold ministry
34:50in the 80s.
34:51What he says
34:52about power evangelism
34:53and signs and wonders
34:54in here,
34:55some of it,
34:55is the opposite
34:56of what he said
34:57in the 80s.
34:58And he,
34:59and you know,
35:00when you're inside
35:01one of these movements,
35:02John,
35:02I used to be inside
35:03one of these movements
35:03in a leadership position.
35:04I can understand
35:06why John Wimber
35:07did that.
35:08Because you can,
35:11he's trying to,
35:12I think,
35:13John,
35:13I mean,
35:14I think maybe he's trying
35:15to turn the ship on it,
35:16turn the ship slowly,
35:17right?
35:18And if he jumps out
35:19and says,
35:20in a really bold way,
35:21five-fold ministry
35:22is of the devil.
35:23We reject it.
35:25Sides, wonders,
35:25miracles leading the way
35:26is of the devil.
35:27We reject it.
35:28Well,
35:28all kinds of people
35:29would have turned their back.
35:30But when he goes at it
35:31this way
35:31and he don't say,
35:33hey guys,
35:33I'm changing my mind.
35:34I was wrong.
35:35When he goes at it this way,
35:36he can gently lead
35:37people away
35:39from it,
35:40right?
35:41Maybe had he lived longer,
35:42he might have been
35:42more successful at it.
35:44But,
35:45he is very clearly
35:47changing his mind
35:49on five-fold ministry.
35:50He is very clearly
35:51changing his mind
35:52on signs, wonders,
35:53miracles leading the way
35:54through power evangelism
35:55in here,
35:56right?
35:56He's very clearly
35:57changing his mind
35:58on positive confession
35:59in this.
36:00And it starts roughly
36:01about the middle
36:02of this book,
36:03which was wrote,
36:05the middle of this book
36:06starts being wrote
36:07after the Toronto Blessing,
36:08okay?
36:09And in the last
36:09three and four years
36:10of his life.
36:11And the actual
36:12rejection of five-fold
36:13ministry comes
36:14the last year
36:16of his life
36:16is when this one
36:17is wrote.
36:18It's actually,
36:20I think it might be
36:20three or four months
36:22before he died
36:22comes out this rejection
36:23of five-fold ministry.
36:25And
36:25what happens,
36:28John,
36:28is
36:28he continues
36:30to use
36:30five-fold ministry
36:31language,
36:31he continues
36:32to use
36:32latter-rain language,
36:33but then he starts
36:34putting slightly
36:35different definitions
36:36to things
36:37and moving it
36:38in a better direction.
36:40And,
36:40you know,
36:40to people who are
36:41from this ideology,
36:43you know,
36:43if you take
36:45John Wimber's
36:46definition of
36:47five-fold ministry
36:48here,
36:48and John Wimber's
36:49definition of
36:50signs and wonders,
36:51what he does
36:51in this book,
36:53it's probably,
36:53it's not really
36:54all that bad anymore.
36:55You know that,
36:55John?
36:56He kind of
36:57turns it into
36:58something not all
36:58that bad,
36:59right?
36:59If you're practicing
37:00it the way
37:01it's in this book,
37:03I'll be honest,
37:03I don't think I
37:04really got a
37:04problem with it.
37:05But that's not
37:06what he was
37:06doing before,
37:07right?
37:08That's not what
37:08was happening
37:09before,
37:10right?
37:10And what was
37:12happening before
37:12is what's in
37:13the New Apostolic
37:13Reformation.
37:15So,
37:15as John Wimber's
37:16life rolls on,
37:17John,
37:18and all of
37:20the commissioning
37:21of apostles
37:21and prophets
37:22and the creation
37:23and expansion
37:24of the five-fold
37:24ministry networks
37:25in Vineyard,
37:26and the Toronto
37:27blessings happening,
37:28I don't know
37:31why John Wimber
37:32woke up.
37:32I really do
37:33not know
37:34why John Wimber
37:35changed his mind,
37:36right?
37:37Because just like
37:38Derrick Prince,
37:39you can find
37:39towards the end
37:40of their life
37:40where they're
37:41saying the
37:41opposite of
37:42what they said
37:43earlier in their
37:44life,
37:44but they don't
37:45tell you why.
37:46John Wimber
37:47don't really tell
37:48us why he
37:49changed his mind
37:50on all this
37:50stuff,
37:50and we're just
37:51left to guess
37:51at their motives,
37:53and we can
37:53assume it's good
37:54motives,
37:54but I want to
37:55tell you a thought
37:57of mine,
37:58John,
37:58and you tell me
37:58what you think.
38:00John Wimber
38:01was like,
38:02I think he was
38:02literally on his
38:03deathbed in
38:04August 1997.
38:06What are the odds
38:07John Wimber
38:07never even wrote
38:08this?
38:09What are the odds
38:10that other people
38:11wrote this stuff
38:12for him when he
38:13was dying and
38:14published it for
38:15him?
38:16What are the odds?
38:17You know,
38:18and that's kind of
38:19my deep thinking.
38:20I don't even really
38:21know that John
38:22Wimber wrote this.
38:23Nobody really knows
38:24that John Wimber
38:25wrote this.
38:26All we know is
38:26some guy said,
38:27hey, I'm editing
38:28John Wimber's
38:28letters,
38:29and here's the
38:29one he wrote
38:30on his deathbed,
38:30ladies and gentlemen.
38:31Did John Wimber
38:32actually write that?
38:33I don't know
38:34if he wrote that
38:34or not,
38:35but nevertheless,
38:36this has got
38:37John Wimber's
38:37name on it,
38:38and it was
38:38published after
38:39he died.
38:40As far as I know,
38:41it was published
38:42more or less
38:42after he died,
38:43the book.
38:43But anyways,
38:46I would encourage
38:47anyone in Vineyard,
38:47John,
38:48or anybody that
38:49respects John
38:50Wimber,
38:50just read this
38:51book.
38:51If you're
38:52following the
38:53more healthier
38:54model that he
38:55put in the end
38:55of this,
38:56you're probably
38:56not in such
38:56a bad state.
38:59But nevertheless,
39:00this still remains
39:01a gateway to the
39:02crazy ideology.
39:04You're still using
39:04the terminology
39:05and ideas and
39:06concepts that came
39:07from the latter
39:07reign if you
39:08follow John
39:09Wimber's stuff
39:09in here,
39:10which is a
39:11gateway to the
39:11crazy.
39:12And I still don't
39:12want the gateway
39:13to the crazy
39:13either,
39:14John,
39:14so you can
39:15still be healthy
39:15at a gateway
39:16to crazy
39:17and be
39:19something I
39:19don't necessarily
39:20want to be
39:20part of.
39:21John,
39:22I feel like
39:22we've been
39:22all over the
39:23place with
39:23this episode
39:24today,
39:24but hopefully
39:25we've said
39:26something that's
39:26useful to our
39:27listeners.
39:28You know,
39:29I too question
39:29whether or not
39:30John Wimber
39:31wrote those
39:31letters.
39:33The problem
39:34is we'll never
39:35know who
39:35actually wrote
39:36them unless
39:37somebody who
39:38did write
39:39them confesses
39:41and said,
39:41hey,
39:41I wrote this
39:42John Wimber
39:42did not write
39:43this.
39:43But for me,
39:44that argument,
39:45since it can
39:45never be
39:46answered,
39:46that's not
39:46where my
39:47head goes.
39:48We have
39:49examined very
39:50thoroughly through
39:51the course of
39:51our podcasts
39:52people who have
39:54been taught this
39:54very, very
39:55false theology
39:56from Branham,
39:57the framework
39:58that was laid,
39:59and we have
40:00talked about
40:01people who
40:01died because
40:02of it,
40:03people who
40:03have been
40:04spiritually led
40:05astray,
40:05people who
40:06have been
40:07under authoritarian
40:08control and
40:09their lives
40:10ruined.
40:11this is a
40:12cascade of
40:12error that
40:13developed from
40:14Branhamism.
40:15If you,
40:17at the end
40:17of your life,
40:18realized,
40:19I have taught
40:20something that
40:20have caused
40:21people to die,
40:22physically and
40:22spiritually.
40:23I have taught
40:24things that
40:25maybe not to
40:27the same level
40:28of extreme as
40:29some of the
40:29extreme cases of
40:30the splinter
40:30groups,
40:31but had the
40:31potential to
40:33develop into
40:33authoritarian cults
40:35where people's
40:35lives were
40:36ruined.
40:36I believe
40:38that if
40:39he actually
40:39wrote this,
40:40he would be
40:41so explicit
40:42in saying
40:43that I
40:44denounce
40:45everything that
40:46I have said
40:46prior to
40:47this.
40:48I was wrong,
40:48and if you
40:49follow the
40:50things that
40:50are wrong
40:51from my
40:51teachings,
40:52then you
40:54have the
40:54potential to
40:55die,
40:55be led
40:56astray,
40:57spiritual
40:57death,
40:58bad things
41:00can happen.
41:01And I
41:01would say
41:02also,
41:03remove every
41:03single thing,
41:04every single
41:05trace of
41:06my publications
41:07because I
41:08don't want
41:08that to fall
41:09into the
41:09wrong hands.
41:10I would say
41:11this,
41:11if it were
41:12me.
41:13Would Wimber
41:14say it?
41:14I don't know.
41:15It all
41:15depends on
41:16what kind
41:16of character
41:17he was.
41:17So for me,
41:18it goes back
41:19to the
41:19character more
41:21than the
41:21question,
41:21did he write
41:22them or not?
41:23When I look
41:23at the people
41:24like John
41:25Wimber,
41:25like Lonnie
41:26Frisbee,
41:26like Derrick
41:27Prince,
41:28you know,
41:28men of that
41:29caliber,
41:32I put
41:33I have
41:34not formed
41:34a personal
41:35opinion on
41:35them as
41:36individuals.
41:37I really
41:37don't.
41:38I don't
41:39know.
41:39I don't
41:39know what
41:39to make
41:40of them.
41:40They're
41:41enigmas to
41:41me,
41:42John.
41:42Kind of
41:43like Gordon
41:43Lindsay.
41:44He's an
41:44enigma to
41:45me.
41:45I cannot
41:46figure it
41:47out.
41:48What is
41:48going on
41:49in that
41:49head of
41:49theirs?
41:50But what
41:51I do
41:51know is
41:52they're
41:52teaching
41:53the same
41:53ideology.
41:54They're
41:54teaching
41:54elements of
41:55the same
41:55ideology that
41:56they learn
41:56from the
41:57same
41:57sources,
41:58that comes
41:59all the way
41:59back to the
42:00same roots in
42:00the latter
42:01reign.
42:01And I
42:01know that
42:02that ideology
42:03is dangerous.
42:05And so
42:05while some
42:05of these
42:06people may
42:06have been
42:07perfectly fine
42:08good people
42:08on their
42:09own,
42:10they were
42:10promoting an
42:11ideology that
42:13everywhere it
42:14goes,
42:15positive
42:16confession,
42:16manifested
42:17sons of
42:17God,
42:17five-fold
42:18ministry in
42:18combination,
42:19produces
42:20horrors,
42:20John.
42:21It produces
42:22horrors.
42:22If you get
42:23those three
42:23things in
42:23combination,
42:25they just
42:25produce terrible
42:26things.
42:28They do.
42:28And I look
42:29at the three
42:30of those things
42:30like dials,
42:31John,
42:32where you
42:32can kind
42:32of go from
42:33low,
42:33medium,
42:33high.
42:34You can
42:34get five-fold
42:35ministry,
42:35low,
42:36medium,
42:36high.
42:36You can
42:37get manifested
42:37sons of
42:38God,
42:38low,
42:38medium,
42:39high.
42:39You can
42:39get positive
42:39confession,
42:40low,
42:40medium,
42:41high.
42:41And if
42:42you get
42:42all three
42:42of those
42:43dials up
42:43on high,
42:45you get
42:45a Jonestown
42:45massacre.
42:47You get
42:47a faith
42:48assembly
42:48Warsaw
42:49massacre.
42:50You get
42:50Hobart Freeman
42:51stuff.
42:51You get
42:52mass death
42:52when you
42:53turn all
42:53three of
42:54those up
42:54on high.
42:55That has
42:56happened
42:56over and
42:56over in
42:57this
42:57ideology.
42:58Mass death
42:59when you
42:59turn all
43:00of those
43:00up on
43:00high.
43:01And when
43:02you get
43:02them down
43:02on lower
43:03levels,
43:04there's still
43:05deaths that
43:05happen in
43:05these things,
43:06John.
43:06There's deaths
43:07that happen
43:07in the
43:07churches I
43:08come from.
43:08There's deaths
43:09that happen
43:09in the
43:09churches you
43:10come from.
43:11Part of
43:11the reason
43:11I left
43:11the message
43:12to begin
43:12with is
43:13because people
43:14were unnecessarily
43:16dying from
43:18the ramifications
43:18of this
43:19ideology.
43:20That more
43:21than anything
43:21is what
43:21started waking
43:22me up,
43:22watching people
43:23die.
43:23And this
43:26ideology has
43:27a long,
43:28long,
43:29long history
43:30and track
43:30record of
43:31that.
43:32And it's
43:33very unfortunate.
43:35I am not
43:36the least bit
43:36worried about
43:37the new
43:37apostolic
43:38reformation
43:38taking over
43:39America,
43:39John.
43:40That's never
43:41going to
43:41happen.
43:41You guys
43:42are crazy.
43:42You guys
43:43think that's
43:44ever going to
43:44work out
43:44for you?
43:45You guys
43:45are nuts.
43:46I mean,
43:46you're never
43:47going to
43:48take over
43:48nothing.
43:49Man,
43:49you couldn't
43:49even take
43:50over Chicago,
43:50let alone
43:51America.
43:52So that's
43:52never going to
43:53happen.
43:53It's all
43:53a pipe
43:54dream,
43:54John.
43:54They don't
43:55scare me
43:55from that
43:56respect,
43:56but they'll
43:57be harmful
43:57to the
43:58people in
43:58it.
43:58It will.
43:59People are
44:00already being
44:00hurt.
44:01People continue
44:01to be hurt.
44:03It's a sad
44:05and unfortunate
44:06thing,
44:06that movement
44:07and that
44:07ideology.
44:09What they're
44:09chasing is a
44:10pipe dream.
44:11They are not
44:12going to
44:12become manifested
44:13sons of God.
44:14They are not
44:14going to be
44:15empowered as
44:16Christ on
44:16earth in the
44:17way that they
44:18think.
44:18The things
44:19that they're
44:19chasing are a
44:21fantasy,
44:21John.
44:22is there
44:24even a
44:24last day
44:25revival in
44:26the Bible?
44:27I don't
44:28know.
44:28On this
44:29side of the
44:29message,
44:30I don't
44:31really,
44:32again,
44:32this is my
44:33opinion.
44:34People out
44:34there might
44:34have a
44:35different
44:35opinion.
44:36I don't
44:37even think
44:37last day
44:37revival is in
44:38the Bible.
44:38I don't think
44:39it's there.
44:40I mean,
44:41maybe that
44:42144,000
44:43stuff is a
44:44last day
44:44revival,
44:45maybe.
44:46But who
44:46knows even
44:47what that
44:47is.
44:49It's vague,
44:50right?
44:50It could just
44:51be something
44:51with Jewish
44:52people in the
44:53land of Israel,
44:53right?
44:54It might not
44:54have nothing
44:54to do with
44:55us at all,
44:55the way you
44:56read it.
44:57So,
44:58is there a
44:58last day
44:59global revival?
45:01I don't see it
45:02in the Bible.
45:03I mean,
45:03the Bible says
45:04the world gets
45:04worse and worse
45:05and worse,
45:05not better and
45:06better.
45:06I mean,
45:07the whole thing
45:08is a pipe
45:09dream,
45:09John.
45:10I mean,
45:10it's very
45:11hard for me
45:12to even
45:12go along
45:14with most
45:15of the core
45:15concepts of
45:16that ideology
45:17anymore.
45:18You know,
45:19the apostles
45:20and prophets
45:21and pastors
45:21and teachers
45:22and evangelists
45:23of the first
45:23generation
45:24equip the
45:25church with
45:25everything they
45:25need to be
45:26perfected and
45:27unified and
45:28reach the
45:29fullness of
45:30the stature of
45:30Christ.
45:31We don't need
45:32new ones to
45:32do it.
45:33We already
45:33got everything
45:34we need in
45:34the Bible
45:34to get to
45:35that state.
45:36We just need
45:36to keep
45:36following what
45:37they gave
45:37us to begin
45:38with.
45:39And you
45:39don't need
45:40positive
45:41confession is
45:42not faith.
45:42Positive
45:42confession is
45:43false witness.
45:44Positive
45:44confession is
45:45breaking one
45:46of the
45:46Ten Commandments.
45:47Right?
45:47I mean,
45:47it's not even
45:48it's a sin.
45:48Positive
45:49confession is
45:49a sin.
45:50And I
45:51have developed
45:52some strong
45:53beliefs around
45:54these things
45:54on this side
45:55of the message,
45:56John.
45:57And I
45:57don't,
45:58I have
45:59generally avoided
46:00sharing my
46:00own viewpoints
46:01on these
46:02doctrines
46:02because,
46:04I don't
46:05know,
46:06I was in a
46:06cult my whole
46:07life.
46:07I might
46:07still be
46:08confused.
46:09You know
46:10what I mean,
46:10John?
46:11So,
46:11ladies and
46:12gentlemen,
46:12don't take
46:13something just
46:13because I
46:13said it.
46:14All right?
46:14I am not
46:15like our
46:15false prophet.
46:16I am not
46:17the great
46:18authority.
46:19Okay?
46:19Look into
46:20these things
46:20yourself.
46:21You know,
46:22look into
46:22some of these
46:23books.
46:23The New
46:23Charismatics by
46:24Michael Moriarty.
46:25This is a
46:26fantastic book.
46:27It really
46:28will take
46:28you through
46:28this ideology.
46:30And I
46:31didn't believe
46:31a thing in
46:32this book
46:32when I
46:32read it.
46:34Okay?
46:35I'm telling
46:35you,
46:36I only
46:37believe the
46:37stuff in
46:38this book
46:38because I
46:39went through
46:39primary sources
46:41trying to
46:42figure out
46:42this guy
46:42was confused.
46:44But Mr.
46:44Michael
46:44Moriarty,
46:45I'm sorry,
46:45you were not
46:46confused.
46:46I don't even
46:46know if this
46:47man's still
46:47alive.
46:48But you
46:48were right,
46:49sir.
46:49You were
46:49right about
46:50it all.
46:50And I
46:50was wrong.
46:52And John,
46:54The Counterfeit
46:55Reformation by
46:56Hank Hangraff,
46:57this was
46:57wrote while
46:58Toronto Blessing
46:59was going on
46:59and stuff.
47:00This guy was
47:01there and
47:02witnessed and
47:03went through
47:03some of these
47:04things.
47:04This is another
47:05terrific book
47:06where a guy
47:07was debunking
47:08this while it
47:08was happening.
47:10Counterfeit
47:10Revival,
47:10Hank Hangraff.
47:13Look into
47:14John Wimber's
47:15pastoral letters.
47:16He indeed
47:17rejected the
47:18dangerous pillars
47:19of this ideology
47:20at the end
47:20of his life.
47:21He rejected
47:22five-fold
47:22ministry
47:23formulation that
47:24he had been
47:24promoting earlier.
47:25He rejected
47:26the signs,
47:27wonders,
47:27miracles should
47:28lead the way
47:29model in
47:30this book.
47:30He rejected
47:31really the
47:32extremes of
47:32positive confession
47:33even in this
47:34book.
47:35And so,
47:36what he did,
47:37John,
47:37and I'll make
47:38sure I end
47:39on this note.
47:39At the end
47:40of John Wimber's
47:41life,
47:42the Toronto
47:43Blessing
47:44Churches are
47:44split away.
47:46The churches
47:46influenced by that
47:47split away.
47:48The churches
47:48influenced by the
47:49Kansas City
47:50prophets split
47:51the way.
47:52Numerous
47:52churches divide
47:54and schism
47:54and split
47:55out of
47:55vineyard because
47:57John Wimber,
47:58he is,
47:58he is indeed
47:59rejecting new
48:01apostolic
48:02reformation
48:02beliefs.
48:03He's saying,
48:03nope,
48:04there will be
48:04no new
48:05apostles and
48:05prophets,
48:06right?
48:07Only a few
48:07years after
48:08saying,
48:09oh,
48:09only a few
48:10years after
48:11saying,
48:13Paul Cain's
48:13the greatest
48:14prophet there
48:14ever was,
48:15right?
48:15Now he's
48:16saying,
48:16no,
48:16there will
48:17be no
48:17apostles and
48:18prophets.
48:19He changed
48:20his mind.
48:21And,
48:22of course,
48:22you know what
48:23happened when
48:23John Wimber
48:24started saying
48:25these things?
48:26Paul Cain
48:26had a great
48:27miraculous
48:28experience from
48:29God,
48:29John,
48:30that John
48:31Wimber was
48:31turning away
48:32from the
48:33miraculous and
48:34turning away
48:35from the
48:35move of
48:35God.
48:36And John
48:36Wimber,
48:37rather,
48:37Paul Cain
48:38issued this
48:38great prophecy.
48:39You'll actually
48:40find this
48:40referenced,
48:41I think,
48:41in some of
48:42Mike Bickle's
48:43stuff.
48:43Paul Cain
48:44issued this
48:44great prophecy.
48:46And lots
48:47and lots
48:48of people
48:48across the
48:49vineyard churches
48:50that were being
48:51influenced by
48:51this stuff
48:52heeded Paul
48:53Cain's prophecy
48:54and broke
48:55away from
48:55vineyard.
48:57And what
48:57they formed
48:58when they
48:58broke away,
48:59John,
48:59was already
49:00the New
49:00Apostolic
49:01Reformation.
49:01They were
49:02already the
49:02New Apostolic
49:03Reformation
49:03when they
49:04were in
49:04vineyard.
49:05And as
49:06they break
49:06away,
49:07Paul Cain
49:07and the
49:08other Kansas
49:08City prophets
49:09and the
49:09other
49:10latter-in
49:10guys,
49:11some of
49:11them,
49:11they brought
49:11in,
49:13they have
49:13already
49:14connected
49:14this
49:15faction
49:15of
49:15vineyard
49:16with
49:16the
49:16pre-existing
49:17latter-in
49:17networks.
49:18They're
49:18already
49:19connected
49:19to
49:20some
49:20message
49:20churches.
49:21They're
49:21already
49:21connected
49:22to
49:22like
49:24Reg
49:25Lazzell's
49:26Glad Tidings
49:27Tabernacle,
49:28where that
49:29nice Laura
49:29Lynn lady
49:30is from.
49:31They're
49:31already
49:32connected
49:32to these
49:33people
49:33before
49:33they
49:33break
49:34away.
49:34And as
49:34they break
49:35away,
49:36they're
49:36now
49:36bringing
49:37together,
49:38they're
49:38finding a
49:39new home
49:40in the
49:40latter-in
49:41movement,
49:41the pre-existing
49:42latter-in
49:42movement
49:43churches.
49:44And they're
49:44joining in with
49:46their pre-existing
49:46five-fold ministry
49:47structures,
49:48and this new
49:49apostolic
49:50reformation is
49:50taking off.
49:51And it literally
49:52is at that
49:52point.
49:53It is the
49:53faction of
49:54vineyard that
49:54was expelled,
49:56and it was a
49:57variety of
49:57other pre-existing
49:59latter-in
50:00apostolic
50:01networks
50:02merging
50:03together to
50:04form the
50:05new apostolic
50:06reformation.
50:07And as I've
50:08said before,
50:09the best way
50:09to look at
50:10it is it's
50:10not a
50:11hierarchy.
50:12It's not
50:12a hierarchy.
50:14This thing
50:14hasn't been a
50:15hierarchy since
50:15the 1950s.
50:17What it is
50:18today is it
50:18is competing.
50:20It is competing
50:21hierarchies.
50:22It's competing
50:22apostles and
50:23prophets with
50:24their own
50:24independent
50:25networks.
50:26And there
50:27are points
50:27and times
50:28where they
50:28cooperate
50:28together.
50:29There are
50:29points and
50:30times when
50:30they're competing
50:30with each
50:31other.
50:31And what
50:31are they
50:32competing for,
50:32ladies and
50:33gentlemen?
50:33They're
50:34competing for
50:34you.
50:35They're
50:35competing to
50:36have you in
50:37their seats.
50:38You are the
50:38prize, ladies
50:39and gentlemen.
50:39You are what
50:40they are competing
50:41for.
50:41And in that,
50:42I think,
50:42is my biggest
50:43issue with
50:44John Wember.
50:45It isn't that I
50:46don't think he's
50:47a good guy.
50:48I think he
50:49probably was a
50:49good guy.
50:50I think his
50:50heart may have
50:51been in the
50:52right place and
50:53there are many
50:53people who
50:54have vouched
50:54for that.
50:55But what he
50:56did was he
50:56gave all of
50:57this architecture
50:58that I'm
50:58describing,
50:59credibility.
51:01And that,
51:02I think,
51:02was his biggest
51:03mistake and
51:03he never
51:04really apologized
51:05for giving
51:05it credibility
51:06because of
51:08his endorsement
51:09for ministries
51:10like Paul
51:11Cain and
51:11others.
51:12The problem
51:13was people
51:14who saw
51:15the endorsement,
51:16they moved
51:17towards it and
51:18that ideology
51:19was able to
51:19continue and
51:20actually grow
51:21bigger than
51:21what we had
51:22in latter rain.
51:23I would say
51:23that what we
51:24see today is
51:25much, much
51:26larger and
51:26more global
51:27than what we
51:27had with
51:28William Branham.
51:29So he gave
51:30credibility to
51:31all of this
51:32and it is
51:33a mess.
51:34So, so
51:35much more
51:35we could get
51:36into.
51:36Maybe next
51:36time we'll
51:37go a little
51:37bit deeper
51:38into the
51:38messes that
51:39were created.
51:40So if you've
51:41enjoyed our
51:41show and you
51:42want more
51:42information,
51:42you can check
51:43us out on
51:43the web.
51:44You can find
51:44us at
51:45william-branham.org
51:46and christiangospelchurch.org.
51:48For more about
51:49the history of
51:50William Branham
51:50and the
51:51healing revivals,
51:52read Come
51:52Out of Her,
51:53My People.
51:54And for more
51:54about the dark
51:55side of the
51:55new apostolic
51:56reformation,
51:57you can read
51:57Weaponized
51:58Religion,
51:58From Christian
51:59Identity to
52:00the NAR,
52:01both available
52:02on Amazon,
52:03Kindle,
52:03and Audible.
52:04Weaponized

Recommended