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00:00Parents, strongly caution, this program contains some material that is unsuitable for young
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02:58Welcome to Beyond the Tape, I'm your host Mark Basant, of course it's day 24 of the
03:03state of emergency, we want to welcome all our viewers across Trinidad and Tobago and
03:08across the globe.
03:10Today is Legally Speaking Wednesdays, and of course today we have attorney at law with
03:15the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service, Corporal Zaki Raleigh, welcome sir.
03:19Good evening Mark, as always it's a pleasure and honour to be on this platform, good evening
03:23to the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago.
03:26My law enforcement colleagues, both TTPS and TTTF and other law enforcement agencies,
03:33family on Beyond the Tape, Mark, I know a lot is happening in Trinidad and Tobago, I
03:38should say continues to happen, but I just, on a softer note, I want to take this opportunity,
03:44you know, over the last week, at frequent intervals Mark, I had the opportunity to interact
03:52with persons in different sectors of the society, you know, and I must, you know, give
03:56some feedback to your good self, TV6, you know, family on Beyond the Tape, with the
04:00positive feedback that is coming to the program.
04:05Persons have identified the benefit, you know, with the information that has been disseminated,
04:10so those persons who interacted with me over the last week, I also want to thank you very
04:14much for your feedback and your encouragement, you know, as we go forward to treat with crime
04:20and criminality in Trinidad and Tobago, so I just wanted to recognize that this afternoon, Mark.
04:24I certainly have had a busy 24 hours, I had a couple of police-involved shootings, you know,
04:31and of course, but before we go to that, we will just take a brief look at our statistics,
04:38up to day 24 of the state of emergency. So, number of operations conducted, 1,226 targets,
04:48prior to offenders, 1,256. Searches conducted thus far, 7,853. 1,133 traffic operations,
05:00total persons arrested, 1,038. Traffic offenses detected, 3,447. Firearms recovered to date,
05:101,036 ammunition recovered, 1,244 assorted ammo, and dangerous drugs seized thus far,
05:19133,859 grams of cannabis and 740 grams of cocaine. So, certainly, the police is
05:30continuing their exercises as we enter, I guess, the second month of our state of
05:39emergency, one month almost complete by next week, and we have another, I guess,
05:45another seven weeks thereabouts. I think it goes till around the 14th of April.
05:50And again, Mark, you know, thank you very much for sharing the statistics with, you know,
05:54members of the public, and, you know, you can see that upward movement with reference to the
06:00various categories of, you know, just by way of example, the arrest, seizure, and general exercise,
06:05you know. So again, to the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service, I want to urge you to continue
06:09to, you know, to grip Trinidad and Tobago, and, you know, ensure that we continue to use this,
06:15you know, state of emergency powers, you know, to root out, prevent, detect, and, you know,
06:20most importantly, I don't think that this particular chart would have reflected it,
06:24Mark, but maybe I probably will have a discussion with the authorities to ensure that we probably
06:28include that category in terms of the charges laid, slash prosecutions, you know, to have a
06:33complete picture of what's happening, and perhaps even looking at a category for the number of
06:38orders, preventive orders, and other orders that, you know, has or have been issued thus far,
06:43so that we get a true picture as to the present state of the state of emergency and the police
06:48response, or I should say law enforcement response, because I'm aware as well that
06:51ETDF is also, you know, assisting the police in this particular operation. But hats off to the
06:57police, and I, you know, I want to urge you all, but, you know, we are seeing very serious crimes
07:02being reported still, you know, and, you know, there's a lot of work to be done, so, you know,
07:06Trinidad and Tobago Police Service, Trinidad and Tobago Defense Force, again, I want to urge you
07:10to appreciate the mammoth responsibility that resides, you know, on the shoulders of all of us,
07:16to ensure that, you know, we restore, as quick as possible, public safety and security for the
07:21benefit of the people of Trinidad and Tobago, and most importantly, Mark, you know, I'm just
07:24browsing through your newspaper, and I'm seeing that, you know, persons continuing to exercise
07:29that freedom of movement, and freedom of association, in the form of, you know, all
07:34inclusive effects and parties, you know, this being the carnival season. So, again, it's important
07:38for us to ensure that we restore public trust and confidence, as soon as reasonably practicable,
07:43as we go forward. All right, we're certainly going to be talking a lot more about that,
07:47but we're going to take a look now at our headlines.
07:59So, those were some of the headlines within the last 24 hours under Corporal Ali. We are
08:26seeing there, in some instances, where there are seizures of firearms and ammunition, and the
08:32firearm remains the number one choice for assailants and attackers out there, involved in
08:37robberies, shootings, and even murders. Well, I'm happy that you said that, Mark, because, you know,
08:43while, at this stage, you know, the report of the seizure of the particular firearm, or firearms,
08:48as the case may be, without, you know, disclosing, you know, too much at this stage, you know, the
08:54inquiries are very wide open. So, you know, you may well find in the near future that some of these
08:58firearms that we are seeing coming into the hands of the police, you know, it may manifest itself in
09:03the detection of other crimes. So, again, I'm urging members of the public to also appreciate
09:08that during the state of emergency, you know, we are calling on you to play your role, to give the
09:13necessary information or intelligence, ensure that we, you know, weed out as many firearms as
09:17possible, and perhaps, you know, there'll be a detection when those firearms come into the
09:21possession of the police. Alright, and certainly, and we're going to go to our first clip, of
09:25course. This has been trending on social media since last night. Armed men entering a supermarket
09:34in the Kunupia area. You're seeing they actually went into the supermarket around 930, along the
09:41Welcome Road there, intersection of Welcome Road and Raghunanan Road, and according to reports by
09:49the police, they pointed a firearm at the cashier, and they would have escaped with a quantity of
09:57cash, as well as, you see there, actually carting away items from the grocery as well. They left,
10:06and shortly thereafter, police would have received information about their whereabouts, and their
10:14involvement in this alleged robbery, and a short while after this corporal alley, they would have
10:23met, or the police would have intercepted the vehicle in an area just along Raghunanan Road,
10:30in an area up near Kuhn Avenue. Yes. This is some footage of Kuhn Avenue along Welcome Road there,
10:38and apparently, as they tried to make their escape, they would have opened, reportedly opened fire,
10:46and the police were no choice but to return fire, and in so doing, three of the assailants were shot
10:52and killed, while two of the other assailants managed to escape. Well Mark, I'm happy that you,
10:59you know, give us the opportunity to look at this footage, and you know, your reporting in relation
11:04to the matter. So, you know, I want to indicate and be very circumspect that, you know, when there's
11:08this sort of development, it will be attracting criminal investigations, investigation from an
11:13internal context, but I want to use this opportunity generally, that when we are speaking about matters
11:18like these, in two contexts I want to treat with it. The police mandate to detect crime under the
11:23infraction of the law. I want to, you know, emphasize upon the Trinidad and Tobago Police
11:27Service, that that's a very, very, very sensitive, and it's also of a demanding authority and power
11:36that you have to detect crime under the infraction of the law. Notice Mark, in terms of identifying
11:40how that detection should be made, or how that prevention should be made, is left up to the
11:44police, and equally, the police in law have been given the authority, that if need be, to use such
11:50force as is reasonable in these circumstances, when they are preventing crime, when they are looking
11:56to effect an arrest, or even a case where their life, or the life of the officers may be in danger.
11:59So, members of the public, and members of the public in the context who may be bent, Mark, on breaching
12:04the criminal law, I want to urge upon you to rethink what you are doing, because policing, and policing
12:12within the rule of law, can land you into very serious problem, including if you engage the police,
12:16and the police is looking to effect an arrest, or prevent a crime, and you are responding in a way
12:24that is inappropriate, and places those officers' life in danger, you can't be met with the level of
12:31force that would be proportional in these circumstances. So, very serious matters, you know,
12:36still condolences to the families of those persons who lost their life, but again, Mark, when you see,
12:40I think, if I recall, four persons came out of that particular grocery. Yeah, because this grocery,
12:45as you see, is an intersection, and I understand, it's pretty popular in that area, a lot of people
12:52go there to purchase items, and I don't know if there was anybody else, and luckily, maybe there
12:57was nobody else at that time in there, perhaps, or who was entering, or you see, like, the customers
13:03here from today, where the cameraman, Brandon Benoit, from TV6, would have shot some people
13:09going in, the business was open, there are cameras there, that camera, I think, would have picked up
13:14the assailants last night, that was later fed on social media, and so on, and luckily, nobody
13:22was actually coming in when these people were leaving, because God knows what might have happened,
13:26because, you know, they were armed, yes, and considered dangerous, and they left there in a
13:31hurry, yes, certainly, I was talking to a senior officer a little while ago, and well, they were
13:37still running their fingerprints through the database to try to determine exactly the identities
13:43of the dead individuals. Well, again, Mark, condolences to the family, but again, you know, I just want to
13:49repeat that policing is a very serious, serious responsibility, and the Trinidad and Tobago Police
13:54Service, I want to emphasize upon you to ensure that you use the length and breadth of the law
13:58when we are dealing with these criminal elements, and from the members of the public who are bent
14:03on breaching the criminal law, I want to remind you that the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service, and
14:07any persons who may be called upon to assist them, they are empowered in law to use force as is
14:13necessary and reasonable in circumstances, and that particular case, based on what was reported, I know
14:18it will be subject to inquiry, but if you are using deadly force, or if you are placing the officer's
14:22life in danger, they are going to match that force, so just be aware, and ensure that you let good
14:28sense prevail, so again, to the officers who may have been involved, you know, I know that the senior
14:32officers will be ensuring that their health and wellness is taken care of in terms of their
14:36psyche, and any other intervention that may be required. These circumstances, Mark, is not
14:41circumstances that are easily digestible, and let me make that abundantly clear, you know, no Trinidad and
14:46Tobago police officer will come out with what we call a mens reno intention, you know, to take
14:50life. They come out on a daily basis to uphold the law, to enforce the law, and in so doing,
14:56at times they may have to use deadly force in pursuit and in execution of their duty, so
15:03members of the public, you know, please let good sense prevail, and Mark, not to digress, I saw, or had
15:08the opportunity to listen to the Commissioner of Police in Jamaica recently, when he spoke
15:13about calling on the criminal elements to not raise their firearms at law enforcement, as opposed
15:20to where, you know, you are calling on law enforcement, you know, to take it on, you know, that's a very,
15:26very important statement that he made, in terms of calling on members of the public who are bent
15:31on breaching the criminal law from raising your firearm or raising objects that may be threatening
15:36the lives of police officers. I want to caution you on public platform this afternoon, let good
15:42sense prevail. Policing is a very serious matter. The officers are armed with deadly weapons, and
15:47they are there to uphold the rule of law. And I just want our producers to put back up those images
15:53of those dead suspects. For those who are bent on trying to go down that road of wanting to rob
16:01supermarkets or any kind of businesses or persons, this is the end result of that. If you are caught
16:08by the police, and if you are armed and you refuse to surrender, this is what will happen.
16:14And Mark, if it's possible, let's go back a little bit, if it's possible, and, you know, to look at
16:19the persons when they were leaving the establishment. Right. You know, if you look carefully, it appeared
16:23that one of the persons may have had an object in his hand. If we could just go back, if it's
16:28possible, look carefully. Yes, the second individual, and that I think that the cashier did say,
16:35that somebody pointed a firearm at their face. Yes, so I just wanted to point out in terms of
16:40what appears to be an object resembling a firearm. Look at the second person. Yes,
16:44look at his right hand. Yes, and a cutlass as well there. It looks like an object that resembles one.
16:50That's right. So, certainly they had intentions when they got in there, what they wanted and so
16:56on. And then they came out and escaped. The driver sitting in the car waiting, equally culpable in
17:01this matter as well. And so, we just want to move across quickly to the, an incident that also took
17:08place this afternoon in the Dan Kelly Laventille area, involving a young man, apparently, who
17:16allegedly attacked another individual. Yes. And the police was called into this
17:23area here, in Eastern Quarry here, and you're seeing images from Cameron, Devon, Parker, and
17:31essentially, my understanding is that the individual refused to put down an object
17:40resembling a sharp object. Yes. Where he was attacking another individual. Despite repeated
17:47attempts by the police, he refused to do so. And so, they had to engage him and apparently he was
17:54shot during the exchange or the confrontation. Well, again, Mark, just to reiterate, if I should
18:01say that, I just give a submission. While these matters, every police shooting will be attracting
18:09a criminal investigation or investigation internally, even by the PCA to ensure there's
18:13full transparency and accountability. I use the opportunity to look at the law as it relates to
18:18this, so that persons, both law enforcement can appreciate and also the persons who may be bent
18:23on breaching the criminal law. So, I want us to appreciate that we should be spending time
18:27in understanding, understanding this issue of use of force and understanding that if you are,
18:33if you present a threat, eminent threat to police officers in the execution of their duties, you,
18:40they will respond appropriately in reference to ensuring that they prevent crime or they protect
18:45the, the, their life or the life of their colleagues or even other persons who may be
18:50within the vicinity. So, I just wanted to emphasize that point, but Mark, policing, again, just within
18:56five minutes, two, it's two matters that you have identified. One previously in Cunupia and now this
19:01one in Port of Spain, while subject to inquiry, again, the significance and the importance
19:06where policing, this is very, very serious business, this is not going out there to play dolly house.
19:11This is, officers are being paraded and dispatched to preserve the peace and if you are intending on
19:16breaching the peace, you will be met with a new rule of law. All right, we're going to take a short
19:22break and we'll be back after this short break.
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21:39Welcome back to Beyond the Tape. I'm your host Mark Bassan, joined today by Athenia Law
21:43with the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service Corporal Zakir Ali. And we had our 21st murder
21:50for the year this morning in the Pleasantville area. Apparently, a man identified as 28-year-old
21:59Kareem Williams was shot and killed at a construction site. Images of him there of
22:06course are blurred. Police are still trying to determine the motive. Mr. Williams lived in the
22:12Gasparillo area. This shooting happened approximately just after noon today. Police
22:20are responding quite quickly to the shooting and they're still trying to ascertain a motive
22:27for the killing. But as we speak about gun-related killings, I think a lot of the murders for the
22:34years so far are associated with firearms. Well Mark, I will say openly on public platform that
22:40the consistent reports of deadly shooting resulting in murders continue to be a concern
22:48for me and I'm sure for the remainder of the organization. And it's important for us, you
22:52know, while we are policing, it's important for us, you know, to find a way to prevent these crimes.
22:56And whether these crimes are defined as, you know, associated with drugs or associated with being
23:03part of a gang or even, you know, other, you know, motives, it's important for us to prevent this
23:07crime. We must appreciate that we're in a public emergency and it's important for us to, you know,
23:14ensure that the capital offense of murder that we are preventing and if we are not preventing,
23:20you know, per chance, it's important that if these crimes occur that we must be able to solve these
23:24crimes quickly to ensure that persons are brought to justice. So again, unfortunate condolences to
23:30the family but, you know, it is clear that the 22nd of January and we have 21 murders based on
23:38your report. That is of concern to me and I think we need to, you know, consistently be looking,
23:43you know, at ways of improving, you know, our response during this period and, you know,
23:49on further. And you know, some people are saying that the SRE is not assisting at all in this,
23:56in having the flow of these homicides and I know it's a pretty difficult job and I guess
24:02the police cannot be everywhere and they also rely on the citizens around the various communities
24:08to also assist them in terms of if you see somebody brandishing a firearm or whatever
24:13to make a call and reach out to them so that they will be privy to the information because sometimes
24:18you have to rely or a big part of it is getting information from the public as well.
24:23Yeah, yeah, most certainly and whether you're in a state of emergency or you're in the
24:28ordinary course of business, the responsibility and the duty and that partnership between law
24:35enforcement and the community, we kind of don't emphasize the importance of that mark because at
24:38the end of the day that's, in my view, the lifeblood of the legitimacy of a police service,
24:42you know. There may be instances where the police and their patrol and I want to, you know, they may
24:48be astute and, you know, they may be at the right place at the right time to be able to prevent a
24:52crime or if a crime occurs, you know, you detect the crime but there are times where they may not
24:56be there and it's important that the information, it comes quickly to law enforcement and law
25:01enforcement is important as well to act on the information and I want to repeat that mark.
25:06Not only saying, you know, calling on members of the public to, you know, bring the information or
25:10intelligence, when it comes, act on it. Act on it sincerely, you know, take the necessary steps
25:16and let us be able to deal with it and treat with it. Exactly. Now, during our update of the
25:22SUE, you would have seen, you know, we had a category for traffic offenses and so on and, of
25:27course, I might be including it, of course, is that, you know, there was an accident earlier
25:34today in the Labre area. It seemed to be pretty bad. There was a bus and another vehicle involved
25:43in the collision there. I'm not certain how many persons might have been injured but I gather the
25:51driver of that vehicle and any other occupants that were in that vehicle certainly would have
25:58been hurt and taken to hospital and yes, the occupants are actually in the vehicle, you know,
26:06and this is another vehicle. It seems that there were two vehicles or is it? I'm not certain, Mark.
26:12I'm not certain. Oh, the same vehicle, the producer is correcting me. It looked a little bit
26:16different there. So, I mean, it's a narrow roadway and, you know, even if you are proceeding in a
26:24direction, when the bus is in one direction and the vehicle is in the other, you also have to proceed
26:29with caution because in these minor roads and so on, there's a speed limit to observe.
26:33Yes, I mean, excellent point in terms of the road, the particular road that you're driving on,
26:38definitely from a road traffic regulatory framework, you know, it will be governed by a
26:43particular speed limit. Even the way that the road, you know, is constructed, you may have signs that
26:49say, you know, okay, a dangerous bend or you slow down, you know. So, this comes back to driving with,
26:54you know, with due care and attention to appreciate that there's a reason why a sign was, you know,
26:58erected in this particular area to be able to, you know, so that you'll adopt the necessary caution
27:03but Mark, more importantly, I want to take this opportunity again beside driving with due care
27:07and attention, minimum. Persons who are occupants of a vehicle and you're seeing the driver driving
27:12without due care and attention or dangerously or recklessly as the case may be, you have a
27:17responsibility in that vehicle for your life. Let us begin there. You have a responsibility because
27:22let's be reasonable, Mark. You're in a vehicle and someone is maneuvering or in control of a vehicle,
27:26you must see subtle signs that, hey, listen, I'm seeing, I'm foreseeing some danger here
27:31and you who, whether you're in the front passenger seat or the back, you know, you need to speak to
27:36the driver, you know, let the driver know that you are concerned for your safety and the other
27:40person. So, you know, I want to urge persons, you know, to exercise your option and
27:46direct the driver accordingly. Otherwise, stop the vehicle, take another vehicle. And might I add, based
27:51on the video that we saw there, that impact, it's pretty severe. It had to involve some type of
27:58speed. Well, I don't want to, you know. No, I'm not saying who, I'm just saying it has to involve
28:03some type of speed based on the impact. Yes, of course. Even look at the roadway, Mark, what it
28:08appears to be, it's wet. Yes. Have you seen some water on the side of the bus? So, I guess, you
28:14know, again, that your attention is also reflected where, what, in terms of the conditions. Yeah. Which
28:20is important. Alright, we have a call on the line. Caller, good evening. Hi, good evening, Mr. Bassant
28:26and good evening, Corporal Ali. Good evening, sir. Good evening. Viewing the show, listening. And I like the point that your
28:33gentleman recently touched on about, you know, citizens getting involved. If they see something,
28:39say something. I see a point about not just asking members of the public, if they see something,
28:46to say something, but acting on the information. Yes. You know, analogy came to my mind earlier
28:52today, right? Let's just imagine, you know, back in the day in class and the teacher writing on the board.
28:58The same point that you made, police can't be everywhere all the time. A teacher can't be
29:03writing on the board and seeing what students are doing behind them. So, if somebody talks, you know,
29:08disrupts, they're not doing something, and the teacher interrupts and immediately asks who did
29:12that or who said that. The first thought that's going to go through some student's mind who
29:17actually trying to pay attention and being disrupted is, if I say who did this, you know,
29:24would I be targeted after class, harassed by other people? And that's what some people will
29:30be considered, you know, when they go out in public, would they be targeted or harassed by
29:35other persons? So, restoring the trust and confidence and the connection between
29:43police stations and members, citizens within the district, I think is the main point. I came up
29:50with the idea that, you know, police could, you know, the branch within the area could, you know,
29:59ask persons to come in, have a conversation and get a familiarity with persons in the community.
30:04That's one point. And, you know, I'm looking forward to, you know, more proactive approaches.
30:11You know, you see something, say something, it's more respondent. But, you know, I guess restoring
30:16the trust and confidence would help with shifting the focus more proactive. So, if persons know,
30:24well, hey, if I do something, somebody might see it and report it, and the police officer
30:29is going to act on it. And then, I know I currently take out my grief on the person
30:36who might just say something because that person have the full support of the police service.
30:47Alright, any short comments? I just want to acknowledge the caller, Mark. Again, you know,
30:51he found favor in the call for intelligence and information. But most importantly, reciprocate by
30:58acting on the information. And if you act on the information, you're going to create the opportunity
31:02to be able to detect crime, prevent crime, or even cause a prosecution to flow in relation to
31:08your acting on the information or the intelligence from members of the public. Alright, we're going
31:13to take a short break. And when we get back, we'll take more of your calls. Stay with us.
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33:00It's Legally Speaking Wednesdays. Welcome back. I'm your host, Mark Bassant, and we have with us
33:06a tenured law of the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service, Corporal Zakir Ali. And just a reminder
33:13of the numbers to call 623-1711, extensions 1996 and 1997. So, Corporal Ali, I don't know if there's
33:23anything you would like to enlighten the public on as we're still in this state of emergency.
33:31Well, Mark, you know, over the last couple days I had the unfortunate privilege of reading a report
33:39where two, allegedly two, children were arrested with possession of 0.45 ammunition.
33:50And the report went further to indicate that they were in the presence of a gang member
33:54in the Northeastern Division. Now, Mark, that troubles me immediately because I know last week
33:58we spoke about the importance of looking at our nation's children and their association. And here
34:04it is, a report of children being arrested in possession of ammunition in the company of an
34:09alleged gang member. This in itself, apart from the ammunition that was found on the individual
34:18based on the report, there are many other things that one needs to look at in terms of, okay,
34:22where are the parents of those children? And I know there's a call, so we can continue the
34:26discussion. Mark, if you want to take the call, we can do that. Okay, sure. Caller, good evening.
34:32Caller, good evening. Good evening, sir. Go ahead. You're live and beyond the tape.
34:36Good evening, Mark, again. Corporal Ali. Good evening, sir. All right. I would have
34:41called yesterday regarding the issue of recruitment. A number of candidates,
34:49the next set of 200, were sent by the TPPS Kidding Academy to do a psychometric assessment
34:57at the police credit union building in Arima. And suffice it to say, we understood that
35:06all of them who would have done that assessment there failed, right? Each candidate was asked to
35:13pay $2,200 to have that assessment done. One of the reasons given was that the party that is
35:24administering the assessment was not qualified so to do. In your opinion, Corporal Ali,
35:30does those candidates have any legal regrets as it relates to, one, being reimbursed for the
35:36money they spent, and two, challenging the decision of the TPS or the Commissioner of Police
35:43for sending them in to do an assessment without the parties having the relevant qualifications
35:50to administer such a test? I'll just note that. Well, caller, let me thank you very much for your
35:57question. It's a beautiful inquiry on your part. I'm excited and I would love to respond to it
36:06because I have a response for it. Unfortunately, the hat that I wear and being a member of the
36:10TPS, I have to tread carefully in terms of looking at my responsibility because I may be called upon
36:16as well to advise on matters like that or to advise other persons. But what I would want to
36:22suggest to you is that I feel the effects of that particular exercise
36:31and I may want to ask you kindly to seek an early audience with an attorney and
36:38probably he or she will advise you from there or any alternative. Probably you can consider
36:43writing the Senior Superintendent of the Police Training Academy or the Deputy Commissioner
36:48Administration and advance your concern and see whether in fact they will look into it and
36:54give you some feedback in relation to those matters. But unfortunately, I do not want to
36:58advance anything further because of where I sit. So Mark, just to go back quickly to that issue in terms of
37:04the ammunition that was found on the children. Apart from it being a contravention
37:09of the criminal law, the question that I ask is, okay, where are the parents for these individuals?
37:13Are they aware that these children were in the company of a criminal? And on the last occasion,
37:18I specifically mentioned that if you know that your child, whether you are a parent, guardian or
37:23personal responsibility for that child, is in the company of a criminal, it's important for you to
37:28take the necessary actions because the law is very clear that a child who is in the company of a
37:32criminal is in need of care and protection and you see the consequences of what may have transpired
37:37there. We don't know the full facts but it's again, the question has to be asked in relation to
37:42the responsibility of parents and more so the timing of the arrest. Is it that those children
37:47should have been in school at that time and if they are not in school, what has been done? So I
37:51want to take this opportunity to indicate that I'm looking at this situation in terms of
37:57violence and children involved in acts of criminality and especially where gang and
38:01gang-related activities are concerned and I'm going to be making some very strong statements
38:05and call to the necessary stakeholders and I'm willing to, you know, to take any step that is
38:11necessary to protect the children of Trinidad and Tobago. And I want to reiterate your call
38:15because we have said to parents who are listening on this show and of course younger ones, if you
38:21are having an issue or problem with somebody who is part of a gang or they're being persuaded to
38:28join a gang, contact us, contact us and we will put you on to Corporal or any other senior officer
38:35to get that assistance for you and your family because as you know there was a relative of one
38:41of the guys who was shot and killed in Matlot a couple days ago and they spoke about the fact that
38:47this young boy did not want to be part of that gang. These gangs have stretched their tentacles
38:53outside of the normal urban areas into these rural communities now and they have people living in
39:01Matlot is one of the last villages in Trinidad and Tobago on the north coast and you know these
39:08people live a very simple life fishing and now they are beholden to these gun-toting criminals.
39:14And Mark, you know, I just want to indicate as well, you know, you took me to that Matlot area
39:18and I heard the report as well where that the persons who approached to, you know, to be to
39:23join gangs and they refused. I want to say to members of the public, you know, do not wait for
39:28an outcome. Do not wait for a consequence that when someone lost their life, we are now in
39:34reporting that is because an approach was made to that individual to join a gang.
39:39Is take the opportunity and engage law enforcement at an early stage so that you give yourself the
39:44best opportunity to be able to protect yourself and for the necessary actions to be taken. It
39:50hurts me Mark. It pains me not only in the context of children but persons who are approached by
39:55criminal gangs who and rightly so say, no, I do not want to be part of this and because of that
40:00resistance, because of that failure to follow suit in terms of what they are asking, you are met
40:08with deadly force and as such, you know, you lose your life. Let us bring this to law
40:14enforcement and again to law enforcement. I want to balance the equation. These are very serious
40:19matters if we are serious about preventing persons from joining gangs and Mark, the logic
40:24there is very simple. If gangs are warring each other and they are losing men on either side,
40:29they're going to be in pursuit to be recruiting persons to continue to protect and to carry out
40:34the activities. So, so persons who are affected do not wait until there's an outcome and a consequence
40:41and we are hearing you speaking to the members of the media indicating that this person or
40:45these persons who are approached by criminal gangs and they refuse. Let us know that in advance
40:50so the police can step in because we are legally bound to prevent crime and to protect and serve
40:57you Trinidad and Tobago. Alright, we have a call on the line. Caller, good evening.
41:04Hello, good evening gentlemen. Good evening sir. Alright, I would like to have an input in my
41:12question please. What happened in Copper Valley? I'm a retiree and I paid almost $5,000 to a lawyer
41:23in Ramson Street in Chaguanas and I supposed to pay a certain amount. I told him I was coming to
41:34pay the rest and he decided for no reason that he's no longer doing my case. That is after I
41:43insisted on getting a receipt to authenticate where I paid the $5,000 comparison of $2,500 by $2,000.
41:55Could you advise or direct me? What can I do please? Alright caller, if you're still online,
42:02again a very sensitive matter, please leave your number with the producer and I'll be willing to
42:08engage you or have someone engage you so that you'll be advised appropriately. I do not want
42:12to advise you on public based on what you have just reported for many various reasons. I hope
42:16you understand so I look forward to speaking with you or I'll advise someone to speak with you
42:21subsequently. Thank you. Alright, we're going to take a short break and we'll be back after this.
42:27Stay with us.
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44:10So
44:15So
44:36Welcome back to Beyond the Tape. I'm your host Marc Bessant and we're joined today by
44:41Corporal Zahir Ali of the Trinidad and Tobago Service and we just want to remind you of the
44:47numbers to call 623-1711 extensions 1996 and 1997. So I mean talking about you know this
44:58gang recruitment thing and it's of concern because it's overarching and it it intersects in a lot of
45:03our lives even if we don't want to say it does. Yes. You know even if we pick up the paper in
45:09the morning and we read about gang violence, we read about somebody who we know might have been
45:14affected by gang violence, a child, a brother, a sister, aunt and uncle, somebody. Yes. You know
45:22and it's as you said it's very disheartening to get up every morning and read that on the front
45:28pages of a newspaper. Yeah I mean and Marc as I said before it is it is sad um to hear you know
45:35the the expressions and the comments you know after the outcome you know after the consequence
45:40and um you know I'm looking to prevent it and if you're looking to prevent it you know let us bring
45:44it and let us table it. That's the only opportunity you're going to have to be able to get that
45:49support to be able to ward off that threat that is facing you, your family and your community. So
45:54um hence why I was so you know vociferous on that point. Do not wait till there's a consequence
46:00when you know that had you brought that to the law enforcement agencies
46:04an intervention could have placed you in a secure position because immediately you made a statement
46:10that you're not willing to fight this on your own. Yeah. But you're looking to bring the state
46:14agencies to assist you in this fight. All right we have a call on the line. Good evening.
46:21Hello. Hi good evening caller you're live go ahead. Um no I just want to know what is being
46:28done about that gang. I seem to have lost the caller there. I think he was going to inquire
46:37about some particular gang and please don't call any names on the air. We just want to remind you
46:43if you just being very general and then of course if you have specifics about a particular area or
46:49particular gang you can share it off here with the producer and of course he will pass that
46:54information or she will pass that information on to Corporal Ali. We have another call on the
47:00line. Caller good evening. Hi Corporal Ali back. Yes good evening sir go ahead. Good evening um I
47:06do have a question for Corporal Ali but I'll have a short comment first. Um are you familiar with
47:14the word prejudice Corporal Ali and the meaning of the word? I think I have a fair understanding
47:19of prejudice. It will all depend on the circumstances though but I have a fair
47:23understanding of prejudice. All right so I'd just like to ask you a question um in that context
47:29right now. Before I ask the question though some months ago the program officer would have
47:35would have stated on the program that he believes that uh um the citizenry thinks that they have a
47:44right to own a firearm. That every citizen think that they have a right to own a firearm.
47:51But in that context Corporal Ali um if I check all the boxes in terms of meeting that requirement
47:59to own a firearm given the state of the crime in the country um and I have still denied the right
48:07to own one even though we have seen situations where the police are able to provide a level of
48:11protection. Isn't that in itself a form of prejudice?
48:19That's my question to you. I don't know if you want to take it off. All right um go ahead um
48:26you can tell him. Okay so Cola um let me hammer some things and I don't know if you want to hold
48:31on but you know I need to revisit something in terms of that position um that you have tabled
48:37for us. Let me indicate at the outset that under the firearms act every citizen of Trinidad and
48:43Tobago who has the appropriate age has the right to apply for an FUL a firearm users license to
48:50enjoy the use of a firearm. You quite right indicated that there's a particular criteria
48:56that must be met but equally important within the firearms act it's the discretion still resides
49:03with the police commissioners the authority as to whether to grant you that firearm or not. So yes
49:08we have a serious um public safety issue um yes you may have satisfied the criteria but the
49:15discretion lies with the police commissioner. Now here's the key for you if perchance that you are
49:21denied where you feel strong that you have met the criteria there's the appeals board that you can go
49:28to to ventilate your matter and there may be other avenues subsequently. So I want to answer it in
49:34that context in terms of one where you are exhausting the entire process and recently you
49:38would have seen um that the courts of Trinidad and Tobago even pronounced on advising you know
49:46respectfully the authority um to be able to make a decision on an application within a reasonable
49:52time. So again excellent um submission but let us run the due process and that discretion resides
49:59with the police commissioner in terms of when that discretion is going to be exercised there
50:03may be other factors that may be considered but if you are denied it does not stop there. I don't
50:08know whether anyone would have advised members of the public about the appeal that they have
50:12that option to appeal the decision of the police commissioner and then you may have other options. So
50:16please let us utilize the law but I want to emphasize every citizen at the requisite age
50:23has a right to apply for consideration to enjoy a fuel and by extension of firearm but the
50:29discretion to award a firearm user license resides with the police commissioner. If she denies you
50:35have an option to appeal so that matter could be reviewed. So I hope I have answered the question
50:41and your concern and I hope that you know if it's something that is engaging you
50:45that you immediately proceed to to engage it in a way out of advice or even persons who are
50:50listening. It's an area's mark as well. I think we spoke about this you in relation to this this
50:54regime and I think it's important for us to really if not educate members of the public
50:59but to really have a look and see whether in fact we are really exercising that um those provisions
51:05of the firearms are properly and balancing the scales of justice to ensure that there's fairness
51:10to the citizenry of Trinidad and Tobago and also within the the TTPS that we are also taking a very
51:15responsible position when we are adjudicating over these applications. All right we're going
51:20to take a short break and we'll be back after this. Stay with us.
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53:07Welcome back to Beyond the Tape. I'm your host Mark Bassan joined today by a thing at law
53:23Corporal Zahir Ali of the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service and I was telling him
53:27during the break in a fiery mood today boy. Mark it's not necessarily a fiery mood you know I take
53:33the citizens business very seriously. Yes. And if we are speaking about trust and confidence you
53:37know I viewed this particular platform with you as a very important platform where members of
53:42the public it can do two things. It can either increase the confidence in the police service
53:46and the police officers or it can decrease it. So these are very important and very significant
53:51and sensitive platform and I want to ensure that when members of the public are engaging the TTPS
53:56that they are given the necessary response. If I cannot answer for various reasons my professional
54:01obligations I'll say so but once persons are asking for clarity I'm going to I'm going to I'm
54:06and as a lawyer my one of my duty in law is to ensure that I uphold the rule of law and I also
54:12ensure that I educate the public in relation to understanding the law. So it's not about being
54:16fiery but I'm passionate to ensure that we do the right things consistently Mark. Yes and I agree
54:21with you 100% there and I don't know if you have any callers but in the interim I have a quick
54:26question. Yes. If you are owner of a firearm and you go to a place and your firearm is of course
54:36presumably concealed and if I happen to see it bulging I can say you own a firearm. Yes. Or is
54:43that difference between you own a firearm or hey I have a firearm. Is that an offense if I just have
54:49a firearm you know showing it? Well I don't want to go on identify whether it'd be an offense but
54:54just based on what you're speaking about Mark one of the criteria and going back to the previous
54:58caller that intemperate habits if one look to really flesh that out and I don't want to get
55:04too legalistic on public television. Yes. But a firearm supposed to be something that is deeply
55:09concealed especially if you're up in plainclothes and not visible because if it's visible it can
55:14also place you and use a word prejudice. I'll use the word again now prejudice from a safety context
55:20it's because you are showing that you are armed with a firearm person that's some commodity that
55:23the criminal element is pursuing. So that's one. Number two if you are exposing your firearm
55:29intentionally that tells something about you in terms of your intemperate habits and your character
55:34because you can you can now even place public safety at risk because someone get that firearm
55:39from you what happens to the people in the surrounding or in an attempt to try to secure
55:43that firearm there will be a struggle. So again it comes back to proper effective handling of a
55:51firearm and a firearm is not something to be playing with. It is deadly force and it's something
55:55that you have asked for for your personal protection so it's not something that you're
55:58going to advertise. If that's the case well then better you call all the media houses.
56:04Better you write to the media saying okay I'm in possession of a FUL number XYZ. It's a six
56:09wire pistol. I have 60 rounds of ammunition. It's on my waist on my right side every so that's not
56:14the that's not it the that's for your personal safety and you shouldn't be masquerading that
56:19in the public domain. All right and may I say as well if you draw a firearm and there's no
56:24definite purpose you can also be viewed as possession of firearm to endanger life because
56:28there's no definite purpose when you are drawing the firearm. It's very clear when you're doing the
56:33um the safety procedures. Unless your life is threatened. That's correct. So again I can I can
56:38write a book on that mark um humbly but again it's we need to be responsible and we need to be um
56:44having that that um proper management and that temporary habits that we require but I know that
56:50time is of the essence mark. I want to just take this opportunity again to thank you for this
56:53afternoon. Thank members of the public for their questions um for raising their concerns and I hope
56:59I was of some assistance to you all but I want to assure members of the public and the TTPS that
57:03policing is a very serious matter. This is not about dolly house and both persons who are bent
57:09on breaching the criminal law and presenting objects of firearms that may put police officers
57:14life in danger. The law has empowered police officers to treat with you in within the rule
57:19of law in the prevention of crime and in the protection of the life of the officer. So
57:23just be reminded of that but let us continue to excite due diligence and may god bless all of us.
57:27All right thanks so much corporal Ali. Of course repeat tonight at 11 30. We run tomorrow at 11
57:34o'clock. The TV6 news is up next. Stay with us.
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