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00:56 Beyond the Tape will be back after these messages.
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02:01 What's up you guys? I'm Ren.
02:03 And I'm Kim.
02:04 Welcome to Conversations with Ren and Kim.
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02:09 From inspiring individuals making a difference to experts sharing their insights on the latest trends and topics.
02:16 We're here to spark conversations that challenge, inspire and entertain.
02:21 Whether it's about art, culture, technology or everyday life, we've got you covered.
02:26 So join us every Saturday for conversations and unforgettable moments.
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02:33 [Music]
02:39 Good evening Trinidad and Tobago.
02:41 It is Tuesday the 28th of May.
02:44 And we welcome you to Beyond the Tape.
02:46 Now, if criminals point a gun at you, shoot at them.
02:53 Return fire.
02:55 Attack with full force.
02:58 That's a statement that an opposition leader was making and persons are saying we had enough.
03:05 Do we really, in this case, are we stuck in a position where we had enough where we just have to retaliate with serious excessive force?
03:16 Again, the conversation continues.
03:18 This evening with me, I am excited because I'm always excited when a female joins me on set.
03:24 And I can tell you all, she is a dynamic woman and also an officer of the TTPS.
03:31 I'd like to welcome Acting ASP Renee Bain Keller of the Northeastern Division.
03:37 Good evening.
03:38 Thank you so much.
03:39 It's a pleasure to be here.
03:40 Yes, I am excited.
03:42 Usually I am greeted with gentlemen, great gentlemen.
03:45 Yes.
03:46 But I'm always excited when females are here with us.
03:48 Well, I'm excited too to engage because I have watched the program myself.
03:52 And it's an honor to represent the TTPS in this capacity.
03:57 Yes.
03:58 So let me know a little bit more what's happening in your division.
04:00 All right.
04:01 So I am the Assistant Superintendent in charge of discipline.
04:04 So as you know, what discipline entails is that to make sure that all our officers act within the remit of the law and within the policies that we have set in TTPS.
04:14 So I'm also the welfare officer.
04:16 I'm in charge of case file management.
04:18 And I'm also in charge of performance management.
04:21 So you wear many hats.
04:22 So I wear many hats within the division.
04:24 But I'm also supported by other ASPs.
04:26 And, well, Senior Super Edwards is my supervisor in the Northeastern Division.
04:32 So even though I wear many hats, I am more or less in tune with what's happening within my Northeastern Division.
04:38 Yes.
04:39 So when you say discipline, let's expand on that a little bit.
04:43 Is it specifically with the behavior of officers?
04:46 Yes.
04:47 And the way we treat not just the external customers but as well as internal customers.
04:52 So we have a mandate in which we expect officers to behave in a certain, like, for instance, if you have instructions, you have to follow them, you have to comply, and then complain.
05:02 We have a strict policy if you have to report officers.
05:05 There's a guide in which we -- step-by-step guide in which you go about reporting any incidents involving any officer if you feel that you have been maliciously wronged.
05:15 Yes.
05:16 Or if you fail to comply with instructions.
05:18 And it's important that we have this discipline because we are a discipline service.
05:23 And we need to have structure in order, especially when we have to deal with the public and take a person's report from one end to either of some form of justice before an open court.
05:33 Okay.
05:34 So when we have reports of -- when we have incidents of where persons will feel aggrieved, the public will feel aggrieved because an officer did not execute or complete a report.
05:44 There was a delay in case that something became statu bar because of some fault of the officer.
05:50 We have steps that we try to either mitigate.
05:54 Sometimes it's -- we also look at the welfare of the officers.
05:58 So remember, in discipline, you also have to take those mitigating circumstances.
06:01 Okay.
06:02 Especially if it's a good officer, how did he reach to not performing well?
06:07 How did it reach to him?
06:08 Did it have poor supervision?
06:10 We also hold the supervisors accountable when we look at discipline holistically in the service.
06:15 Are you involved in any way when it comes to the police complaints unit?
06:20 No.
06:21 That is there for citizens?
06:22 Yes.
06:23 Correct.
06:24 No.
06:25 They are involved with us.
06:26 Sometimes based on the nature of the complaint, they may send it for us to investigate.
06:31 But they are also a separate unit that investigate officers with respect to discipline.
06:36 All right.
06:37 We have to touch more on that.
06:38 And of course, more about your division and what's happening and how you are dealing with the crime situation in Trinidad and Tobago at this time.
06:44 Let's take a look at today's headlines.
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07:40 Acton S.P. Payne Keller.
07:57 The headlines today in the papers with regards to hearing, you know, attack with full force.
08:03 Now regardless if it came from a person who holds a high position, we hear the same sentiments from some persons in society when it comes to the crime situation.
08:14 Where do you all stand when it comes to, you know, remarks like this and you're hearing persons crying out, "We need more force.
08:21 We need a pointer gun at you all, try to shoot at you all, need to answer back with the equal amount of force."
08:27 Now every scenario has to be judged on its own merit.
08:31 We have a use of force policy and it's important that we adhere to that.
08:34 It is easier said than done to say attack with full force.
08:37 At the end of the day, it's a human life.
08:39 Be it you have to engage them based on the firearm, let's say you have to engage them based on the use of firearm.
08:47 But we have a use of force policy that guides us when we can use, have a use of force.
08:53 It must be reasonable.
08:54 It must be justified because what happens, what people don't know behind the scenes is that
08:58 after an officer engage in any firearm, in any shootout, I would want to say in layman words, with a perpetrator,
09:04 there's an investigation that the officer has to go through.
09:09 I am one of the ASPs and above, we investigate police involved shooting.
09:13 And our job is to go in there unbiasedly to see and make sure that our officers were justified.
09:19 And if they were not justified, they would be placed before the court.
09:21 And you have had certain officers be placed before the open court.
09:25 So it's not just I understand the fear of crime is real, but we also have to do, remember, it's human life.
09:31 And we also have to engage within the law.
09:33 There's a threshold that you must meet with each engagement.
09:36 And I always, when I brief my officers, ensure that the engagement is justified and the force is within reason.
09:43 That is why we have trained officers within reason vintage to use the non-lethal weapons such as tasers and also tasers and the pepper spray.
09:53 Right. So it's important that even though we feel that we are on that time, we want to retaliate.
09:59 There is guidelines in which even a FUL holder, when he becomes a FUL holder,
10:03 he also has guidelines in which he has to operate and meet within the threshold of the law, as I told you,
10:09 in order to engage a perpetrator or a bandit or however you want to put it when he's using his firearm.
10:15 Now, we saw a case where a young lady was kidnapped and she was able to be rescued.
10:21 Of course, with the assistance of the TTPS.
10:23 And of course, there was persons who were shot and killed.
10:28 And officers were there to rescue someone who was in need.
10:33 In that situation, not just there alone, but a situation like that, similar to that,
10:37 is it that with the investigation, the officers or officer could still be able to work until the investigation is over
10:44 or they have to wait until further notice where the TTPS will then guide them accordingly?
10:49 They're still on duty, but what we try to do is we offer them counselling.
10:53 Each officer must go to some form of counselling and be debriefed properly before they resume full duties.
10:59 To make sure that they're ready.
11:00 Correct. Because remember, this is a former trauma.
11:03 And we've been in it so much that sometimes we don't even realise we're operating in trauma.
11:09 But however, for the welfare of the officers, it is advisable that you seek the social worker intervention
11:15 and they get the all clear to continue performing their duties.
11:18 There must be some form of welfare done to the officers.
11:21 Of course. I think many times persons fail to realise.
11:24 I mean, you're in the position now because where you stand, you're able to deal with officers
11:28 and some of the issues they are faced with and what they witness and encounter while on duty.
11:34 A normal person may not be even able to stomach that.
11:37 I mean, yes, they are trained and many times we forget that they are human beings.
11:42 When placed in situations where we see inhumane treatment or a person's body is laid or killed or just, you know,
11:51 dealt with in a certain way, how can an officer go home to their family and be comfortable if they don't have that major support?
11:59 No, it's important that they get that support from the supervisors.
12:02 I mean, sometimes it's maybe a little delayed, but we try to insist that an officer seek some sort of social work intervention.
12:09 We also have the briefings with the senior officers and what we have found, it may, it's form, it's called trauma bonding in essence
12:17 because we work in the environment, we're so used to it, we become as sensitised as we are, we become desensitised from it
12:23 because else you would not be able to operate because remember the next crime is or the crime opportunity could be correct.
12:29 So we, that's where your training starts from in the barracks, whereby your engagement helps you to prepare you mentally, not holistically,
12:37 but that's where if it is that you cannot cope, we have the social workers that we would have that level of intervention to seek the well, the mental health of our officers.
12:46 Now, there was a video circulating on social media earlier today, and I want you all to take a look at this.
12:53 [ Video ]
13:20 So what is happening here in Port of Spain, because this is on Frederick Street, this is near to the mayor's office.
13:26 Yes. Yes. So what is taking place here? You want me to, I want to start with a joke, right?
13:31 It started circulating on social media. Yes. Right. And when it started, I said, Lord Jesus, we cannot chest strap this.
13:37 What is madness in this happening in the city of my love, my beloved country. Oh my goodness. And they reckon from tomorrow.
13:43 So I when I afterwards, when I saw somebody acting, I was like, this is not real.
13:48 So I started making some inquiries concerning it. And I recognize it is called the mayor quarterly inspection.
13:56 Right. So it's something that has been traditional for quite a number of years. However, it fell off after COVID.
14:02 So it's done by the city police. And I must and I would tell you two things coming out of this.
14:06 I must commend senior super Mirage and super Glenn Charles from the city police.
14:12 Those are the senior officers who are in charge and their officers, because coming out of this with me,
14:17 what you get here is that you give an officer having simulations like this.
14:22 You give those officers who most times are first offenders. I mean, first responders.
14:27 Yes. And you remember I was telling you about the multi sector approach. This is the multi agent agency approach.
14:33 So when they are able to support us with this training, because if you look, it gives them an opportunity to strategize tactically,
14:41 to strategize by looking at the backdrop to make sure that no civilians are injured.
14:45 Also, self preservation for themselves and their comrades. This is an excellent simulation.
14:51 And also what I would like the public also to look at is that I don't want to see somebody when I've gone.
14:56 There's gunfire exchange trying to record it because, you know, we always first to see what they want to be up close and personal.
15:01 So they could also bring awareness to the public that when they see a level of engagement with the police like this,
15:07 that they need to seek cover and move away and move away. Correct.
15:11 This is excellent because I think this exposure gives an officer to critically analyze a situation.
15:16 Should I use lethal or not? Not lethal. How can I disarm this perpetrator without injuring or causing myself to have to discharge?
15:24 Because with each discharge, they have to account for it. Every wrong that is discharged from a firearm.
15:29 You are responsible for it and you have to account for it. So I think this simulation is excellent.
15:33 I know of within the TTPs, we have tactical units that also would have these simulations.
15:40 So it gives the officer that critical thinking because, you know, everybody, when they watch a video, be like, he should do this and he should have done that.
15:46 But sometimes you don't have it. But at any moment. But I'm still again, an officer still has to in every every scenario has its own judgment.
15:55 You have to make a judgment call in each scenario. So I think this is excellent.
15:59 And I want to commend the city corporation and the city police for putting on this display.
16:03 And we had more training elements like this. Correct. And it builds the capacity of the officers.
16:08 It empowers them. And what it does, it makes them make better strategic and tactical decision when engaging the public.
16:15 Yes. Yes. Now, I want you to take a look at a video here where I think persons don't understand how serious it is when you sit behind a machine.
16:24 We call this a machine. This vehicle is a machine. And this happens. Take a look at this.
16:32 Two persons in a vehicle is OK. The passenger may be is taking a nap.
16:37 But the driver is saying, well, if my friend could take a nap, I could, too.
16:47 This is so scary. Now, in this situation, is this safe for a person to do that?
16:58 Rather, no, I can't even see if the they pull up the handbrakes, guys and park.
17:03 But is this safe to do? You're not even on your shoulder. No.
17:05 Any reasonable thing a person could tell you that that is not a safe driving position.
17:09 And then so many offenses under the empty and are according to vehicles.
17:14 And the the issue I'm having here is just like you is that I'm looking to even see if they have on the seatbelt, if it's put on the brakes.
17:22 What what what is really going on? All causing that vehicle to stand still.
17:27 But it just goes to show a lot of things he's causing unnecessary obstruction.
17:31 Right. One to what he's also doing is that we don't know what if what influence he's on the drink or drug.
17:39 So we'll have to administer DUI on him as well. The other is correct.
17:45 Right. The other thing is he's parking in an area that is not designated for parking.
17:50 So there's so many other offenses that I can start going through the NBA and the act that we might be here till evening.
17:56 I hope they found that. I hope so, too. And I want to thank.
18:01 However, you know, sometimes we say everybody like everything is not supposed.
18:03 But if somebody told me the story, I would have told them that they're not telling the truth.
18:07 No, you need to. I would tell them that this is genius.
18:09 Well, you need to think again. It happened to me. So does the second person I knocked on somebody's glass.
18:14 And many persons told me never to do that again, because if you start up with the person was sleeping by the traffic light.
18:20 So I just came out the counter opposite side. They could not press the accelerator and mash or they could have put a gun.
18:26 I think someone is trying to do them. I'm just a stockley person.
18:28 But there are many people sleeping behind the wheel throughout Trinidad and Tobago.
18:33 And we need to take it on. Realize how serious it is. We need to take a break.
18:37 Because we lost a number of persons over the weekend. I think about three persons over the weekend.
18:41 And those are lives. Yes, that will pressure us the same way.
18:45 We take a break and when we come back, we continue with more after this.
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19:33 This is Mary. Mary has bills to pay and takes a chance parking in front of the building at the no parking sign.
19:42 Mary returns to her car and this is what happens.
19:46 [Music]
19:53 Mary decides to call when she's five minutes away to let her daughter know that she is close by.
19:59 But Mary forgot one thing.
20:02 [Music]
20:08 After two tickets, Mary just isn't paying attention to her speed.
20:13 [Music]
20:28 Don't be like Mary. Obey the laws of the road. A message from the TTPS.
20:34 [Music]
20:42 And we are back. Of course, the conversation is going. You know when women are together, we always have a lot to see.
20:49 And we have a lot to talk about. Again, this evening you have the opportunity as well to chime in by giving us a call at 623-1711.
20:56 Extension 1992, 1993, 1996, and 1997. With me I have acting ASP, Bain Keller.
21:05 And she's from the Northeastern Division, especially those of you who are now joining us.
21:09 I want to touch a little bit quickly with regards to one of the headlines we saw with the 30,000 where persons are being extorted from gang members.
21:21 Extortion is something that we are accustomed to seeing and it seems like it is getting worse now.
21:26 And the victims just don't know what to do. And we are hearing, you know the $30,000 a month?
21:32 We're getting $30,000 a month to pay someone who is just passing to say they're giving you protection or they will harm your family if you don't.
21:41 What do we do? What does a business owner do in that position?
21:44 Well, first and foremost, I want with respect to extortion, it will be under the last thing I call demanding money by minutes.
21:50 However, one of the things that is necessary to assist with that, there has to be a level of trust and confidence.
21:56 And not just trust and confidence in the sense of the word, but also they must have some feel safe, where they feel secure that when they make the report that something would be done and they would be protected.
22:08 It is a double-edged sword because I know some of the persons are scared that the police would not be able to protect them if they make a report.
22:16 But I want to tell them that they have to make the report. It's critical for us to know.
22:21 And you see what it does, it gives us an opportunity to suppress that kind of behavior so that it does not continue.
22:28 What we know about this is called tax on the street. And we are aware that it's done.
22:32 And I know of some incidents where persons fear for their life. It's a fearful situation.
22:37 But what we also recommend is that for the job is that the contractors can hire police officers or they can hire their own security firms, which I know some contractors have done in the past.
22:47 But in order for us to really suppress this behavior, we have to have information.
22:52 And the information doesn't necessarily have to come from the contractor himself.
22:55 We have ways that you can anonymously report a particular behavior, allow us to do some intelligence led investigation to see if we can get the perpetrators in action.
23:05 We have a call on the line. Let's take that call. Hello. Good evening.
23:08 Hello.
23:10 Yes.
23:13 I recognize that the program is communicating, you know, the policies and practices of the police service.
23:23 That is wonderful. This is how we build trust, you know.
23:26 Right. That's a communicated practices and policies of the organization.
23:30 And this young lady, the inspector, I think is quite a good job.
23:35 One thing. Right. So we need to build trust and transparency in the communicated and that's evident in your simulation.
23:45 Right. One thing I want to recognize in the simulation, you need to capture activities.
23:52 I think you need to build more trust and transparency when the police services are going to do any kind of exercise.
23:59 If you can have the same kind of camcorder to capture the activities as you did in the simulation,
24:06 I think that's going to do wonders in terms of sending the trust based on that transparency that was demonstrated in your simulation.
24:18 I think the only thing is going lips and bums and you're really engaging the public and recognizing that TTTPS is all about transparency.
24:28 So you have to build that trust.
24:30 You have to build trust. You have to communicate your practices and your policies.
24:35 And of course, you have to capture your exercises as you did in the simulation.
24:40 Thank you so much. Now, when the body comes, of course, I know many persons always ask about are the officers really using it?
24:50 Yes, we are. I can speak for Northeastern Division.
24:52 We have a mandate through the commission of police that every officer, once they're going outside, that once they're trained,
24:58 because right now we are aggressively training our officers because remember, it's not really a new technology,
25:03 but we are now incorporating it within the Trinidad and Tobago police service.
25:07 And the commissioner's goal is to have every officer who is on patrol on the beat to have to be outfitted with body cams,
25:15 because the body cams can do two things.
25:17 It can exonerate you, which is the first thing, and that's what we're hoping that once you go out there and you are doing your practice and the policies
25:25 and the policies and procedures effectively, the body cam will cover you. It will exonerate you.
25:29 It can also cause you to answer some hard questions.
25:34 No, but if you're doing your job correctly, you should have, you could answer those smoothly.
25:39 We have a call. Let's take that call. And I want to touch on something when we come back.
25:43 We have the call on the line. Hello. Good evening.
25:45 Good evening, both of you.
25:47 Good evening, sir.
25:48 And I want to direct this question to the senior officer on your right.
25:53 Yes. I'm not an officer, so it's the only officer.
25:57 Right. Now, the question I have for the officer, I want to reflect on the St. John scenario where four died.
26:08 And I want to ask directly the officers who was on that activity, which was headed by the DCP,
26:20 Suzette Martin, would they be wearing body cameras?
26:25 If they were wearing body cameras, I'm not hearing it in the public.
26:29 That will give us every and all action that's taking place.
26:33 And I want to juxtapose that with when a similar issue happened in the Goma thing,
26:39 and an officer was shot and there was a lot of things all over until we finally found out that the officer was shot from police behind.
26:48 So I want to know the St. John's activity close to the monastery in St. Augustine, if the officers had body cameras.
26:57 Have a pleasant evening.
26:59 Thank you for that question, sir.
27:00 Because it's an active and ongoing investigation, I wouldn't be able to comment as to what intelligence they have gathered so far.
27:07 However, I can safely say that if it's not the officers body cam, we would look at, we even engage the footage between businesses, residents,
27:16 sometimes even civilians, sometimes your cell phone.
27:19 But because it's an active investigation and I am not a part of that investigation, I cannot release any information on it.
27:26 But however, because I have seen DCP Martin and she took her time to strategically explain to the public as to where they are and the stage they are in the investigation.
27:36 I believe that when the time comes again, because remember, it's a sensitive investigation.
27:40 It's not just because we recovered a kidnapped victim, we also lost a number of lives.
27:45 And the investigation will be toral and I'm definitely sure that my service is going to release the information as it comes to hand.
27:53 Yes, definitely.
27:54 Now, speaking of cameras, dash cams with individuals, do we have dash cams in the TTPs police vehicles? Do we have them?
28:04 Yes, we do. I'm not sure if all are fitted because we got some new vehicles, but I know it's a practice with some of the E99 vehicles.
28:11 Matter of fact, we would have had investigations where police officers were arrested based on intelligence gathered from within a police vehicle.
28:18 All right. Beautiful. Now, talk to me a little bit more when it comes to managing the gang violence on our island, our beautiful island of Trinidad and Tobago.
28:29 How are you all coping with it, especially in your division, if there's any?
28:32 I won't say we're coping with it. One of the things we are doing is that we are targeting our priority of the offenders.
28:38 As I told you, one of the things that we are strategic in doing in Northeastern Division is trying to suppress that crime.
28:44 And when I say suppress the crime, I want to suppress the we are trying to suppress the activities of crime in the district.
28:50 So it's either you conform to a non-criminal activity within the district or they relocate to another area within the district or out of the district.
28:57 But we are not making it easy for criminals to continue their activities.
29:01 We have overlapping patrols. We have targeted patrols. We have jack patrols. We have our task force as well.
29:08 So we have our normal field officers, our ground officers, the constables, which are really normally our first responders.
29:14 We have engaged them and we are asking what we have done.
29:18 Mr. Edwards and Mr. Calder must give them their kudos and Inspector Ram Singh that they have literally whole meetings.
29:25 And what we do is continuously build capacity to show how we can target our priority offenders by having to take out warrants, going into the going into the communities.
29:36 But we don't just want to go in with only punitive measures. There is a need to restore the community.
29:41 And what we're doing is through town meetings, we are listening to the concerns of the community and engaging them in ways like, for instance, we held a town meeting in Lafayette.
29:51 Yes. And I was pleasantly surprised that they're doing their own needs analysis and they don't want to leave their community.
29:57 That's where they're born and grow. But what they want is something that could sustain them in their community.
30:03 It's basically a rural area, if you want to say, on the scale of things.
30:07 But they're comfortable and they want to feel safe.
30:09 And they did a need analysis and say, hey, these are the jobs. Lifeguard. We want our ability to open a shop.
30:14 We want to be one. They have a lot of sporting young men and women that come out of the.
30:20 Correct. A lot of athletes. So they did their own need analysis and they presented in the town meeting.
30:25 And what we try to do is bridge that gap between their counselors, their MPs, to see how it is that we can show children, especially during their informative years,
30:33 that a life of crime to come out of unemployment and poverty doesn't have to lead you to a life of crime.
30:39 But we must have some engagement with the social services to put in the proper infrastructure to ensure that these needs of these persons are met so that crime is not their first choice.
30:49 We have a call on the line. Let's take that call. Hello. Good evening.
30:52 Good evening, Mom. Hello. I just want to talk about a incident I saw in Samoa.
31:00 In Samoa, a mother was abusing two children, two little children. And it's very disturbing.
31:07 It was in 6th Street, Samoa. And she had a machine outside with two apartments.
31:14 And she showed a little child on the ground, a baby, two years old.
31:19 Oh, OK. That was an incident. OK.
31:27 OK. Thank you. I can safely say that the division, the San Juan Police Station, they actively investigated.
31:35 And I believe that the mother, I'm not sure if she was charged, but I know the investigation was ongoing.
31:39 And the children have CPU got involved and the children have been taken into care and custody.
31:44 Yes. All right. We continue with more after this. We need to take a break.
31:49 I'm. Well, it's a way of goals.
32:16 Is.
32:30 Do you remember? We. I remember. Do you remember?
32:42 Oh, I guess. Do you?
33:03 Oh, no. Oh, we.
33:28 And we are back. Just a quick announcement for persons who are in the back for area.
33:34 Six o'clock is already gone. But the Southern Division Town meeting has already started in Barco at the South Ranch.
33:41 Fifty eight. Digital Village. More has ruled the bay.
33:46 And it started since six o'clock. But it's still available for you to go and speak to some of the officers there and let them know some of your concerns in that area.
33:56 And remember, you have the opportunity to really start a relationship with the officers in your division, in your district as well.
34:05 Now, I need to find out a little bit more. Oh, before we answer that question, we have a call on the line and I don't want to keep them up.
34:12 So let's go to the phone lines. So we have all that color. Good evening.
34:16 Hello. Good evening. Good evening, sir. I would like to ask you a question based on some comments from time ago where they indicated that a case is considered solved when a sex arrested and placed before the courts.
34:33 Or is it, I would like to find out, can we say it's considered solved when there's a conviction against the perpetrator?
34:45 Because what I'm asking is, I know we have arrested a number of persons based on, for instance, like murder.
34:51 But how many people, over the past five years, have been convicted of the crime of murder in this country and entered the prisons based on that conviction?
35:04 Because I know a lot of people have been arrested, but no one has been convicted. And by extension, who's responsible for collecting the evidence that convicts these men?
35:15 I'll wait for your response to that. Thank you.
35:18 So I guess differentiating from being charged and then being convicted.
35:22 All right. So there's a threshold in law you must meet for conviction. So we do our part through our investigation, gathering evidence, and we compile it in our file and present it before the court, where it is argued against with the defense lawyer, where he will argue whether or not the magistrate or the judge will decide whether or not we met the threshold.
35:40 We are on a reasonable doubt that this person should be convicted for this crime. However, that is out of our hands.
35:47 That's why I told you, it's agencies that are supporting other agencies. So we understand that we have the judicial system.
35:54 The judicial system, they have been back. They recognize that there is a backlog.
35:58 And they have recently started up. We started. We transitioned over into a J-POP, which is the...
36:05 It has slipped me and I'm in charge of it. I'll come back to you with it. And it's called a J-POP. But what really it is, it's an online system.
36:12 And we have engaged masters and they transformed the judiciary a bit in order to accommodate this backlog of charged cases that we have.
36:22 So that what happens is that the conviction is solely in the hands of the judiciary. The police has... We don't have any part to play.
36:28 That's what I was about to say. We don't have any part to play. What we have to do is bring the evidence before the court,
36:34 meet the threshold to prove that this person is on a reasonable doubt, that they committed this crime.
36:39 Make sure we have all our witnesses and we prepare it to go before the case.
36:43 But at the end of the day, when it's argued on a point of law, it is the judge or the jury to make up their minds if it is that he would be convicted for the crime.
36:51 So that is a separate entity from us. But the information is easy to compile and forget.
36:56 But sorry to say the blame always falls back on you.
36:58 Back on the police, correct.
36:59 We have another call. Let's take that call. Hello. Good evening.
37:02 Hello.
37:04 Hi. Good afternoon.
37:05 Good evening, sir. Go ahead.
37:08 I have a question. Yes, I have a question for the officer there. I wanted to ask if the department that she is in is directly reported to the commission of police, the TAPCOP.
37:22 That is the first question. The second question is, if this is a conflict of interest investigating officers under the same department in any way,
37:36 and if not, what policies do they have to keep it from being a conflict of interest or keeping it unbiased?
37:44 OK. Thank you. So I'm assuming with regards to information or evidence found because you're part of the welfare department within the TTPS and it obviously deals with officers.
38:00 Do you have to now go to report to the police commissioner with regards to officers who may be placed in a compromising position from your investigations?
38:11 Yes, but there's a protocol. It doesn't go directly to the commissioner. She may be briefed or made aware of it to my senior superintendent, my super, which is Mr.
38:22 Gould, and then I send it to my superintendent. So based on the if any of them are involved in it,
38:27 and maybe if an officer, my superior, not meaning them directly, may be involved or there may be allegations made, I can probably make a report and go through complaints.
38:37 So complaints is not just for civilians as well as police officers can use complaints to make a complaint of a breach of discipline or let's say corrupt behavior,
38:47 corrupt practice of an officer. They can also, we also have that ability to go to complaints and make reports as well.
38:53 I never knew that. I thought it was just for civilians to be able to.
38:57 No, so we officers can make complaints as well because remember, because of our reporting protocols, if it is a report,
39:03 the all standard is that you have to send it to your immediate supervisor. And if that immediate supervisor is the subject of the investigation,
39:09 it may be tainted in some way or bring some awareness to the allegations being made because it has to go through him.
39:14 So that is where complaints comes in.
39:17 Yeah. And in your unit, how are you able to make sure that the officers are able to trust you when it comes to you making a fair decision, especially when an investigation has to happen?
39:27 Well, that's what you just took the word out of my mouth. Fairness. You have to start with fairness. You have to also start with confidentiality.
39:34 Our officer must believe that what they come to tell you, it stays with you unless you have to engage them to get other supporting documents or evidence or statements.
39:42 But trust is paramount. Just how the public wants trust and confidence. I fight for that internal behavior with us as well because we can't, we have to practice what we preach.
39:51 So it's important that we built internal trust and confidence within our organization so that when they feel safe, they feel empowered and they will give the same effective and effective action and efficiency to the public.
40:03 Now, I know many times persons may not understand the internal operations within the TTPS. I mean, it is not for the majority or the public to really know.
40:13 But many times we may see persons in positions and you will hear allegations from the public about officers.
40:24 And when you hear what we see, the rumors about certain officers and they're not upholding the uniform as they should.
40:32 I'm not going on and giving any examples. But how do you treat with that?
40:36 Is it that you will just brush it off or you will pay attention to what persons are saying, especially if it's coming from more than one person and they don't know each other?
40:45 All right. So when I spoke about the threshold in law, so rumors is just that where he who alleges must prove.
40:51 So it means that if it is that we have a certain amount of persons making a particular allegation, it will be investigated.
40:58 But what happens with rumors is that when you ask for you put pen to paper and said, I need your information, your signature, sometimes you don't get that cooperation.
41:06 So we need it. Not necessarily. That's where I told you where you have the option to go to complain.
41:11 You don't necessarily have to come within your division to lay a complaint against an officer or allegation.
41:16 And you also have supported entities such as PSB, which is the why am I forgetting?
41:23 I can answer you. I can answer you.
41:28 Right. And then we also have PCU as well. Yes. But I don't want you to be biased in your unbiased opinion.
41:37 Do you believe that the public really uses the police complaint the way they should?
41:43 Yes, they do. Where we are just talking. Yes. And we are assuming and not understanding how many people really go to the police.
41:50 They do. They do from the most frivolous to the really serious.
41:54 Right. And I think that's where the balance I think happens with the difficult balance with complaints, because some in the moment they may be angry with the officer, how the officer treated them.
42:03 And then they have to investigate it thoroughly. And then when you go back to them, they're not interested.
42:08 But you would have it was an investigation because before they can close it off, they must satisfy that this the all ingredients were met.
42:15 So let's say we ready to charge the officer. You may find that the complainant because, too, there's a lapse in time.
42:21 I must say that sometimes the investigation takes a longer because there's a lot of limit and sometimes the resources does not afford us to investigate as quickly as we should.
42:28 But every report is investigated and the person is briefed and given that feedback because we need to get feedback to the public.
42:35 That is part of building that trust and confidence that they know that even as frivolous as that, we may think the report is at that point in time.
42:42 You had a concern and it needs to be addressed. So that is what the complaints unit do.
42:46 That is what I try to do as well internally with my officers to let them know that it was important.
42:51 It was investigated and this is the outcome. It's important that we give our public and both internal and external customers feedback so that they know that it's not being, as you said, the most people use like fear.
43:05 Fear that it will be unfair because of who he is or the position he or she holds. Yes. We need to take a break. And when we return, we continue with more.
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44:23 [Music]
44:25 [Phone ringing]
44:29 We have another call. Oli, line, let's take that call.
44:32 Hello?
44:36 Good evening.
44:38 Yeah, she is gorgeous. She is.
44:44 I said two more.
44:46 I don't want to get involved in any conflict to see who is more on the same path.
44:54 What I want to talk about is something else.
44:57 Sometime last year, they had enough supervisors to enlist 1,000 recruits this year.
45:05 We are now at the end of the fifth month.
45:09 Can you give an update as to where we are so far?
45:13 So I can't give you an official number, but I believe it's tomorrow.
45:20 I believe there is an official passing out.
45:23 I know in my division, in the last six months, we would have had recruits.
45:27 Within the last year, we would have had two sets of recruits coming in.
45:31 So I can't give you the numbers, but it has been active and it's aggressive.
45:36 We have been recruiting, but remember it's a process.
45:39 They have to go through several processes to qualify.
45:43 Sometimes, in order to form a batch, you may not get the number of persons qualifying during that assessment period to make that batch.
45:51 So we have to go back out again into the public to recruit the persons.
45:54 You can remember its height, its polygraph, its agility, its exam.
45:58 So there are a lot of steps that we have to take to ensure that we get the creme de la creme.
46:03 It wouldn't be like a random HDC drug.
46:06 We have a call on the line. Hello?
46:08 Good evening.
46:10 Hello, good afternoon. It's Asma Zazie. Yes, there.
46:14 I know this might not be what it is you are speaking about, but this is a serious issue here.
46:21 We're going to deal with.
46:23 There is a lawyer, one copy that we saw, who collected thousands of dollars from somebody.
46:32 Okay, so one second, one second.
46:35 When you speak, please just don't call any names.
46:39 You can say lawyer, fine, but just don't call any names, please.
46:42 I have no court clues.
46:44 Thank you, darling.
46:46 I get to find out now that this lawyer is also charged for theft by a church.
46:54 Lastly, by the police.
46:56 Oh, and apparently now it became a situation with the person that I know.
47:02 Because they said that they had the property there and the owners want to sell, etc., etc.
47:09 But right now she's on a $200,000 bill.
47:14 So what I want to know is what can I advise this person in regards to trying to recover their funds?
47:22 Because if everything goes up on that, she's a lawyer, you know, one of them.
47:27 She's the one who's going to sell the place and bring documentation and all sorts of things to them.
47:34 And they give the money to purchase the house and now no house.
47:41 Okay, thank you for that.
47:43 And there's no other answer in the court.
47:45 So what is the option? What can I tell them?
47:49 I would say that what you're talking about, I can't comment because I don't have a proper report before me.
47:55 But if I were to direct you to the fraud squad based on the information that you were given,
48:00 we have the fraud squad which is located on the corner of Park Street.
48:03 No, not Park Street. The fraud squad has relocated.
48:06 So what I'll do is I'll supply Whitney with the correct address for you and I would advise you to make a report there
48:11 so that they can launch an investigation on your behalf.
48:14 Yes, of course. We have another call. Rapid call today.
48:17 Because of course the acting ESP is here with us. Hello, good evening.
48:21 Hello, good evening.
48:22 Good evening, sir.
48:23 Good afternoon.
48:24 I'm not sure, but from the uniform she has on, I suspect she's an inspector of police or a fireman.
48:32 Yes, ESP.
48:34 I don't want to put her in a spot, but I observe years now whenever there is an officer being charged or going to court,
48:44 they are being concealed by their fellow officers on television or even in the press.
48:51 I'm not sure what the Coast Guard and the Army, but could she give explanation?
48:56 Because she talked about fairness and equality and so on.
48:59 So I just want to get that clarified, please. Thank you.
49:02 All right. So what happens when a person is charged?
49:06 Because they're not convicted, there was a practice before,
49:10 but there was some case law that was made with respect to releasing persons' photographs based on pending charges.
49:17 And that's across the board.
49:18 And that's across the board.
49:19 To be very clear.
49:20 Correct. That's across the board. So we have desist from that practice.
49:23 As with respect to concealing someone, that's within their rights.
49:26 If they're being moved from one location to the next, we cannot prevent somebody from putting on a mask,
49:31 putting on a jersey over their head from the view of the public.
49:35 They are entitled to do that, and that is fairness straight across the board.
49:38 It could be a prison officer. It could be a regular civilian.
49:41 If it is the case generates public interest and a journalist chooses to find out more about it, that is on their behalf.
49:47 Our goal is to just protect the person while they're in our custody until they are released.
49:54 And otherwise, that's the most we can do.
49:56 We cannot prevent somebody from concealing their own identity.
49:59 Now, ASP Ben Keller, let me touch on what you were speaking of after releasing a suspect out of the custody of the TTPS.
50:11 And they were charged, yes, and now they go before the court.
50:14 And as you made it very clear, differentiating between being charged and a conviction.
50:21 And being charged is by the TTPS, the officers, and a conviction is done before the court.
50:26 But many times we see where persons are before the court, they may not be convicted,
50:34 and they may be released on bail, or a conviction was laid and it's not guilty,
50:40 and they're able to, you know, come out, they are free individuals.
50:45 When persons see these individuals may be on bail, knowing that they may be involved in criminal activities,
50:50 or they were not convicted, they tend to blame the TTPS.
50:56 And I want to go back to that because sometimes I think many people don't understand how it works.
51:03 So it's always easy to blame someone as fast as possible because they say,
51:07 "As you arrest, you are able to put them behind bars, and you're also working in the prison system as well,
51:15 so you are guarding them and not understanding, as you said, everything is linked.
51:20 So a crime is committed, police get involved, they then arrest an individual,
51:26 with the evidence that they're seeing, they're able to then charge that individual,
51:30 and then they go before the court. Conviction. They back out. It's only fault.
51:36 Only drop the ball. You all drop the ball.
51:40 What persons have to understand is that magistrates operate within the arm of the law,
51:44 and that's what all the acts are for. So let's say, for instance, you commit an act under the summary of offenses,
51:48 like let's say even obscene language, I can go as minimal as that.
51:51 The fine I think is like $100. And then there are offenses that are bailable offenses and non-bailable offenses.
51:58 And a murder has become a bailable offense. Correct.
52:02 Treason, we have several non-bailable offenses.
52:07 Treason is a non-bailable offense.
52:10 However, the thing is, and I may be subject to correction, because there's so much amendment,
52:17 I haven't heard anything within recent vintage concerning that.
52:20 So the thing is this, is that a person is, he who alleges must prove,
52:25 and he is allowed his time before an open court.
52:29 So you cannot hold, and especially with our judicial system,
52:32 having somebody incarcerated may be more reasonable and less burden on the state to have that person based on the,
52:38 because every crime is on its own merit.
52:41 Because we even, I know cases when I work in CPU, you know, there has been several abuse,
52:46 maybe have been meted out at trial and the community is angry, how come he was released?
52:50 But he is entitled to bail. We have a constitution and we must adhere to that.
52:55 And if it is, so he has a right to bail until his time before the court where his matter would be heard.
53:01 I think persons need to understand that.
53:03 Remember emotions are involved there in a major way, and many times we don't understand what may be happening.
53:10 All they know, they saw the crime was committed, they want some sort of justice, but then again, we have everything linked.
53:16 So I speak to the judicial system. We need to get it tight. We need to get it together.
53:23 But as I told you, they are getting it, and correction on that is the Administrative Justice and Indictable Act.
53:28 That is the AJPA that I spoke of, whereby they are utilizing the technology to fast track a lot of the cases.
53:34 So you find a go before a master, and then we have a period in where we have to submit all the evidence,
53:39 which is called a sufficiency hearing. So during that period, we present our evidence.
53:43 So what the judiciary is really trying to do is to avoid that backlog and really treat with these matters going forward.
53:50 But everything, what we have to remember is a process, and there must be due process of the law.
53:55 Because here again, fairness comes in, because you don't want, there is a saying, and I can't remember who it is quoted by,
54:01 it's an old English quote in law where he says, "It's better 10,000 men go free than one innocent man be convicted."
54:08 We have to take a break, and when we come back, we will wrap things up. We'll be back.
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54:46 [Music]
54:49 [Music]
55:17 High road safe, because life is precious.
55:21 Plus, I can't afford to pay another speeding ticket.
55:26 A message from the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service.
55:31 And we are back. Now, acting ASP, Bain Keller, this is your opportunity to take the floor,
55:43 talk to the people, let them know more about what your unit is doing and how prisons can also be a part of that.
55:49 One of the things I would say within Northeastern Division, we have a unique and dynamic environment
55:54 because we have businesses, we have farmland, we have the beaches, Maracas is our showcase of blanches.
56:00 And I want people to feel safe traversing through my division.
56:03 My division, I know under the team of executive officers there, that is led by Senior Super Edwards, as I notify,
56:11 I must give kudos to my team.
56:14 One of the things that I want to mention as well is that we have a program that is run by Corporal Narine
56:19 that is unique to our division, where he actually, he and his team, and civilians as well from the office,
56:25 where they dedicate their time and actually teach C-children.
56:30 My husband and I actually, what we did is that we actually sponsored one of the child that passed
56:35 for a prestigious school from more or less a depressed neighborhood that they didn't expect.
56:41 The mother is a single parent and he passed for a prestigious school last year.
56:45 So that is a community coming together.
56:47 That is the community. Well, I won't say community coming together.
56:49 This is Corporal Narine's baby and his project as officers in Northeastern Division,
56:54 where they actually take their time to tutor children to prepare them for the...
56:58 Above and beyond.
56:59 Whereby they have already gotten a failing grade and he brings them in and said,
57:02 "No." It has people coming from quite Cuba and he takes anybody.
57:05 Once he has the room and the...
57:07 And they are willing.
57:08 And they are willing. So that is unique to my division.
57:11 As I said, I want persons to feel safe when traversing through Northeastern Division
57:14 because I know they're coming for their bacon shack.
57:16 So it's important that you feel safe.
57:18 Yes.
57:19 And one of the things I want to tell the public is that we can't do this alone.
57:22 We need your help. We need your support.
57:24 This is our country. This is our community and we need to fight back.
57:28 Yes. I would love to see you as just a dynamic soul and your shining light within the TTP.
57:34 I can say that for sure.
57:35 Acting ASP Renny Bain, Kelow, thank you so much.
57:38 And the Northeastern Division, the entire team, your colleagues and everyone, we appreciate you.
57:43 We get ready for news coming up next at 7 o'clock.
57:46 Stay until you always remember, be pure and just and have God in your life no matter what.
57:50 We're out.
57:51 (upbeat music)
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