How Leaders Accidentally Train Employees to Stop Thinking | Joe Davis - video Dailymotion

Workforce Alchemy

Why do some leaders inspire initiative while others train employees to wait for instructions?  Joe Davis, author of "The Generous Leader," joins Mason Duchatschek to explain why effective leadership is not about having all the answers. It is about building trust, creating accountability, inviting better ideas, and helping people perform at a higher level.  Drawing on nearly four decades at Boston Consulting Group, Joe shares why saying “I don’t know” can actually strengthen credibility, how leaders unintentionally discourage employees from speaking up, and why small acts of recognition can have an outsized impact on engagement.  Joe and Mason also discuss why generous leadership is not soft leadership. Direct feedback, difficult conversations, and clear expectations can be some of the most valuable things a leader gives an employee.  In this episode, you’ll learn: • Why employees stop contributing ideas • How leaders earn authority beyond their title • Why vulnerability can strengthen leadership • How recognition affects employee engagement • Why inclusion leads to better decisions • How direct feedback helps people improve • Why strong leaders develop people instead of doing everything themselves  If you are a business owner, CEO, executive, HR leader, manager, or team leader who wants stronger employee engagement, better accountability, and a workplace culture where people take initiative, this conversation is for you.  Learn more about Joe Davis: https://joedavis.com/  Connect With Workforce Alchemy: https://workforcealchemy.com/ https://www.youtube.com/@WorkforceAlchemist  Connect with Mason: https://masonduchatschek.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/masonduchatschek/  Workforce Alchemy Magazine: https://workforcealchemymagazine.com/  Subscribe to The Workforce Alchemy Show: https://shows.acast.com/themasonduchatschekshow  #Leadership #GenerousLeadership #EmployeeEngagement #Management #WorkplaceCulture

Transcript

00:05welcome to the mason duke a check show and before we jump in this episode is brought to you by

00:11workforcealchemy.com the place where business owners and executives go to uncover and address

00:18profit leaks hidden in their everyday operations today's guest is joe davis author of the generous

00:26leader seven ways to give of yourself for everyone's gain joe spent nearly four decades at boston

00:35consulting group where he served as a managing director and senior partner he led bcg north

00:42america founded bcg's center for inclusion and equity and was recognized by consulting magazine

00:49as one of the top 25 consultants he has advised leaders through major change crisis growth and

00:58reinvention and today we're talking about how generosity becomes a real leadership advantage

01:05joe welcome to the show thank you thank you mason thanks for the very nice introduction that's so

01:11kind of you i was thinking when you said that 37 or four decades and the different things i've touched

01:16and i'd say four decades at bcg you do touch and it's every type of thing from crisis to growth

01:21innovation so early in your career you received feedback that you were not necessarily the best

01:29problem solver in isolation but that you can solve almost anything in collaboration with others

01:35tell us about that well you know that's it i had an incredibly great mentor which i'm sure you'll

01:42let listeners know but if you do have a great mentor you hang on you know a different point but

01:46you hang on and i remember one time he gave me feedback which on the one hand you think wow

01:50that

01:50was rather harsh but he said to me he said you know joe if i put you in a room

01:55and this other guy

01:56this guy that's really brilliant at bcg four white walls no way out and you have to solve a very

02:01difficult analytical problem he'll he the other guy philip will solve it every time you may or may not

02:08he might have even said i might not he said however then you come out of the room and say

02:12okay now we

02:12have semblance of an answer go get it done make it happen in an organization where philip would never

02:19ever get it done and you will get it done 100 of the time which you know which and is

02:24all about

02:25knowing what i don't know ability to collaborate sat rounding yourself with great people who fill the

02:31gaps of yourself which probably means a little bit your ego's intact and you're kind of humble right

02:36but wow that's a one hand a slam you ain't that smart buddy or whatever you know it's all relative

02:41however there was a compliment and the lesson there from him well he did say it but that doesn't mean

02:46you don't keep trying to solve the problem keep working on it however leverage your strengths which

02:51is the collaboration the team in and all so how do you know when a leader's drive for performance

02:57has crossed the line into a style that actually limits what the team can do

03:02that's interesting that's interesting i think you know if you can see the leader

03:09start to be all about themselves and them ensuring the results get done because they're worried about

03:16how they look and all that you know you know all this very self-centered and people can feel that

03:21you

03:21know they can feel even if a leader care doesn't care even if a leader you know wants everything to

03:27be good for everybody but it's all about their world their what they message how perfect they are

03:32they are not you know the people smell that say wait a minute what is this about is this just

03:36about

03:36you or is this about us this about the organization this better so i can you know i can tell

03:41if people

03:42just seem to be only focused and then there's you know on what they're thinking what they're saying

03:47then you get a lot of things if they aren't good listeners or don't ask very many questions you know

03:51there's some there's some you know just some tactics that they can start to watch people say wow that

03:56person never asks anybody else what they think we ought to do they're geniuses and we get it done

04:03but i'm not so sure it's funny you say that because what you're describing overlaps a conversation i had

04:09maybe a month or two ago with rabbi rabbi david lapin and he helped nelson mandela fix a lot of

04:17the

04:17issues that were going on in south africa and we were having the conversation about leadership

04:22and authority and what he was talking about was how authority can be granted you know if i if i'm

04:31the

04:32the board and i grant you the authority as ceo who do you work for you work for the person

04:39that

04:39granted that authority because if they do that authority they can take it away he said in his world

04:46that he wanted to build and associate with leaders who didn't operate under authority that was granted

04:52to them but authority that was earned he said we had political pressure we had economic pressure we had

04:57social pressure we had military we all kinds of pressure and he talked about some of the things

05:02you're talking about how how when and i guess his take was a little different but not much he was

05:08like

05:08people know when a leader is in your case working for themselves or their own special interests or

05:15versus the interests of all of the people and as you and i were talking offline my son just got

05:22promoted to a store manager job and this is his first job where he's been responsible for managing an

05:29organization and we were talking about some of the the basic things and i told him i said you know

05:36you

05:36have been granted this authority i said but a lot of times young well even people who aren't early

05:42career professionals they typically think of well i've been granted this authority i'm at the top of

05:46the pyramid i dictate and i tell everyone what to do and how to do it and i told him

05:50i said clay i said

05:51if i were you i'm not telling you how to do your new job but i would turn that parent

05:56pyramid upside

05:57down and view your role as one where your responsibilities to create an environment around which people can do

06:04their best work and your job is to provide resources and to eliminate obstacles now you ultimately make

06:10the decisions about what happens to create that environment i said but you work for them and i said

06:20and if you can adopt that mentality i suspect i'm not saying there's not times you just got to be

06:25no you make a decision be decisive i said but if you adopt that mentality by and large you will

06:29earn

06:30that authority commensurate with the responsibility the authority that's been given to you and that

06:36earned authority i told him in my opinion is much more is exponentially more valuable than

06:43authority that's been given to you so i like yeah i agree with you of course i mean it's interesting

06:50because you know when you earn i'll use those or earn the authority or earn you know then people follow

06:57you and now you can be a leader i mean you know and they'll go to the they're not gonna

07:02do something

07:02stupid but they'll go to the ends of the world with you to try to get it done to try

07:06to be successful

07:06where if you tell them all you know in the business world they can just quit if it's nothing but

07:11i mean

07:11one time someone asked me what about all these tech guys you know they're tough guys blah blah blah well

07:17and i said well yeah i don't want to pick on them i still work at a bcg but i

07:20did say for example that

07:22that uh social media company in silicon valley all of my friends that go work there they all last two

07:28or three years but you might go on them you might go work for facebook and all that culture it

07:33gets

07:33on your resume you make a lot of money they don't stay so that's not building followership to your

07:38point and buildings you know he had he has a great ideas i can work and all that i'm not

07:42gonna and you

07:43think about when satya turned around microsoft it wasn't through an authoritative approach that's what

07:49the previous guys had done this talk was stuck forever you know he included everybody he brought

07:54in questioning and challenging into the into the organization he said no more silos no more this is

08:01the way we've always done it it's this was a fundamentally different approach and it and it worked

08:05but i do think to your point i think the main thing of what you told your son is you

08:10want and what

08:11that fellow probably did with nelson mandel you want people to follow you you know they want to be

08:15enthused to work with you and team with you and you can be wrong when you're talking the word

08:20authority is a little different what you're saying i think of the scott kirby the ceo united

08:24he told me a story during you're not during covid he wanted to go on to the on the zoom

08:28thing or

08:29whatever and tell everybody i'm not sure when this is going to end i'm not sure when we're flying again

08:34and his team his leadership oh you can't tell him that you're the boss you have to know all the

08:38answers he said but i don't so what do you want me to do lie to him or say nothing

08:44you know he said so no

08:45he got on there and everybody appreciated when you know marriott ceo did the same thing but all

08:50these ceos said we don't have the answer right now no they even tried to have the answer wouldn't know

08:56they're crazy because no one knew the answer but but to go be to give up some of your authority

09:01by

09:02not showing you all the answers people are just more willing to stick with you it's funny you say

09:07it because like this this conversation is really parallel paralleling some of the ones i've had with

09:12my son that's another thing i told him i said clay just because you were given this responsibility

09:18no one expects you to know everything it's not like oh you got a new name badge that says you're

09:23the manager all of a sudden you got superpowers knowledge experience and ability so that takes

09:29time and you got to earn that and that's why you talk to your peers like hey how have we

09:33done this in

09:33the past what do we like about it what's working if you had a magic wand you could alter improve

09:38something what would it be and why would you do it that way i said but just listen pay attention

09:41observe learn the different skills and then once you learn them then you start might want to start

09:47collaborating with your group and figure ways to to collaborate with them so that you can work

09:52collectively to find ways that you all can improve so that everyone is engaged and they're not going

09:57to argue with their own ideas not going to resist them their own suggestions the good line ask them

10:04they'll probably agree with themselves that they came up with some good ideas and he kind of laughed

10:08about that but one of the uh we were talking offline i wrote a book a few months ago with

10:15a

10:15buddy of mine built right w-i-g-h-t and we were talking about one of the things he

10:19talked about

10:19when you when you were touching on the authority he talked about how when you have when it's top down

10:26he said if that's the way we did things which it wasn't he said i'd get compliance in my presence

10:32what i really want is discipline and engagement in my absence right and that's about a culture

10:40in leadership that isn't top down authoritative and one of the things that you said earlier was

10:47when you were talking about this ceo that said what do you want me to do lie to him good

10:52for that ceo

10:53good for him that he had the the depth of character and the strength to to be authentic and open

10:59with his

10:59people because i'm sure they appreciated it but i also know or can't know but i suspect strongly

11:05you know feel free to disagree but i don't think you will that the employees are smart enough to know

11:10he would get up and act like he knew what was going on he didn't know they'd like that guy

11:14doesn't know

11:14what's going on going on any better than any of us who's he think he's kidding and he would have

11:18become a mockery right just justifiably so throughout the ranks yeah no it's interesting you to your

11:27point on your son because i and you sit you used to wear authentic or whether humble or whatever

11:32you know just but to pretend you know it all and i'll tell you a great story see i think

11:36it's okay

11:37to be vulnerable but vulnerable can simply say i don't i don't know most people think oh i know you

11:43don't have to cry you can say i don't know that's vulnerable and a great story a colleague of mine

11:48used to be afraid to say to his team when they get stuck he didn't have the answer he would

11:54and he'd

11:55leave the room before like the team's working he'd leave the room before he knew they were going to

12:00turn to him and say what do you think we ought to do because he didn't want to say i

12:02don't know

12:03so now that is definitely unproductive right but putting aside that silliness he said one time i

12:08stayed in the room and this ties to your point about we all engage and you know they got stuck

12:13and they said hey boss what do you think we ought to do so you know everybody i don't know

12:17either

12:18and he was afraid to do that he had to cross his line a little bit he said all of

12:22a sudden the energy

12:22burst in the room oh the boss you don't know oh none of us know and the creative juices started

12:27flying well what about this what about that he said it was amazing and it was all because he

12:32was vulnerable enough to say i don't know which is pretty easy you know now if it's two plus two

12:38and

12:39you're supposed to know you better know but you know but but that's you know to your son or any

12:43new

12:44leader like that the sooner you can be willing to engage with everybody and not pretend you have all

12:50the answers i think the sooner now you also have to engage them listen to them ask them questions it

12:56doesn't just happen magically sure you don't pretend you don't have all the answers the sooner they're

13:02going to start following you which is what and then they work together with you or if you act like

13:07you

13:07have all the answers they'll let they'll sit back and fold their arms over their chest and say

13:11okay go for it buddy let's go what do you want me to do i'm gonna do you you tell

13:16me what to do boss

13:16i'll do it and and and they will but they'll sit back and watch if you if if you're not

13:22going to

13:22listen to them you're not going to utilize the resources that you've got that's the other thing

13:26i was having a conversation i said i said they're not asking you again to my son they're not asking

13:32you to do everything they're asking you to accomplish everything that needs to be accomplished

13:36to real with the resources that you've been provided which are people which are systems which are

13:43inventory lighting like you've been given all these resources advertising marketing support

13:47human resource support they've got all these resources to help accomplish these tasks and

13:52you're responsible for allocating them wisely and being a good steward of those resources and

13:57making the organization more valuable with the resource that you've been given and and it's just

14:04i'm glad that i have that kind of relationship with him that i can have those conversations

14:07and i'm thankful that i have the knowledge and experience from doing podcasts and reading books

14:13and writing books and actually being out in the world for a while to be able to give him access

14:18to

14:18those resources so he doesn't have to keep tripping over the same rocks that everyone else does

14:22or that he can learn less than one time instead of having to repeat it but i'm really enjoying this

14:27conversation well it's interesting just i was thinking about this because it's not when you said the

14:31comment about people sitting back because the other thing of course happens if you really are that you

14:37know an inclusive leader is you get better results because you're just i mean people will sit back

14:42and yes sir please walk over and open the door they'll open the door and then they'll go sit down

14:47again and you want them to open the door notice it's dirty clean it oh see the front walk's a

14:52little

14:52messed up you know you want them to go beyond because they're all part of the team and that's you

14:57know

14:57when people feel fully engaged they'll also start to as you you know execute beyond just task which

15:04you're right you can be a dictator and get tasks done but that's not the winning team i don't think

15:09you know well you know the other thing the other conversation is it's funny because i literally had

15:13this conversation with him last night i said i i was army rotc army rotc paid for my college

15:20and i said and i talked to him about building the identity of your team

15:25like build it on put in work improve the skill that make sure that if the other stores take

15:32three weeks to get new person trained that you can do it in three days and that the quality is

15:37as

15:37good if not better as far as comprehensiveness than what the other ones are teaching and how do

15:44you do that well you get them involved you find out what the best practices are you model it you

15:48alter your tank group so i started talking about it and what happens is your team has pride

15:54people aren't going to let a piece you someone's not going to wait to be told hey there's a piece

15:57of trash on the carpet pick it up and throw it away they're going to realize this is our store

16:02our

16:03store store's not going to look anything except for pristine when we're here if no one i don't need

16:09someone to tell me to pick up trash and throw it in there that's this environment is a reflection of

16:14me and the people around me and our mentality and our identity and i'm not going to do anything that

16:19is going to impact my perception or the perception of our team in a negative way and now everybody is

16:26is taking care of their customer and they're supporting each other yeah and it's i'll give you

16:34another example i saw this study somewhere google did a study called they call it project aristotle

16:41whatever they looked at 180 of their teams and what were the highest number one thing for highest

16:45performing teams it's pretty interesting because just what we're saying here not the individual team

16:49members talent not their iq and not their experience it was really how much the team members felt they

16:56had the opportunity to effectively engage they could speak up they could take chances people would listen

17:02and respect them someone would ask them questions they had a chance to share insights they can make

17:06mistakes i mean so you have the smartest group in the world but if all they're going to do is

17:10the task

17:11you tell them that minute you know average team who works as a team is going to win you know

17:15just as

17:17it's just uh it's so obvious i think it's so obvious you know the other thing i think though

17:21especially since we're on the theme of younger people one thing i learned at bcg is you know

17:27sometimes young managers don't it's harder to learn all this because they could still do everything

17:31if someone screws up you know if you have a team of four you could probably work all 24 hours

17:35and get it

17:36done now once your team's 10 or i don't know where the line is you can't get it all done

17:40anymore

17:40so you might as well learn when you're four how to get the whole team versus doing their work if

17:45they fall behind because so many young people oh i can get it they screwed up i'll go do it

17:48myself

17:49it's pretty normal it's pretty typical but it's not as a disaster for it's a not a recipe for

17:55promotion you know because you can't be managing a large group that way well we we had that conversation

18:01i guess we had a valuable conversation last night to prepare me for today without knowing it

18:05but i was talking to him about you know assistant managers and i said hey you have the opportunity

18:12to develop them so that they don't have stress because he was stressed going into his job like

18:17anybody would be like you're supposed to that's normal it means he cares yeah he didn't have all

18:22the answers he didn't know it and he was stressed and i'm like son that's okay you'll figure it out

18:26i said but if you don't think for a second that your assistant manager isn't stressed or that the new

18:31high school kids that are coming to work for their first maybe their first job aren't stressed

18:34because they don't know what to do that that's not stressful for them there's one easy way to

18:39eliminate a lot of stress for all those people he's like what's that i go train to the point they're

18:42experts at their job and they don't worry about that stuff he's like you're right i'm like it's not

18:48gonna be done overnight i said but just think about if every single one of your employees knows their

18:53job inside and out and can cover for others because they know they've been cross-trained i said that's

18:58something you work towards and all of a sudden all the stress about coming to work and doing bad

19:02goes out the window because number one you actually know what you're doing you're surrounded by other

19:06people who know what you're doing and if you get overwhelmed you can pitch in and help each other

19:10and he's like yes so i mean it's yeah for those of us have been doing this a while it's

19:15kind of

19:16common sense but for folks that are new not so much right no no i know but it's you know

19:22just

19:22thinking about this that we talked about engagement being critical and of course asking questions and

19:27listening you know they feel involved and we also just said by definition you can't ask questions

19:33and listen if you're not a little bit humble you're a little bit vulnerable because if you think you

19:36know all the answers then by definition you're not listening you might ask a question the other thing

19:40another trick i like and it's is what i call small acts i'm just my theme is your kid right

19:46now

19:46thinking about your son all right i'm rolling with it that's no yeah small acts big impact so i mean

19:53you

19:53know as well i do a couple of stories you know if you you remember when you got the

19:57gold star in kindergarten on the paper you know it just was and the paper you probably wasn't any

20:02good it doesn't matter you were proud of it you're like oh and all it took was a teacher

20:06sticking a star there and you know i just think about in the business world two story one of course

20:13you just if you send an email and say hey great job team whoever was jimmy you know jimmy love

20:19you

20:19give him a promotion that's nice you give him a raise as you send an email people just wow and

20:23thank you

20:24and if you send it if you copy your boss or copy the team you gotta figure out what's appropriate

20:28it means a lot once i was talking to this woman she's a lot so funny you say that because

20:33last

20:34night my daughter has a job last night she got an email or yesterday from her boss saying how great

20:38her work was and we all spent the entire dinner dissecting the email dissecting the words so proud

20:44of her the entire dinner you know and we would if she got a promotion with her that's great honey

20:48that's really good but here we you know one email probably took the guy two minutes to send it a

20:54minute to send it matters well i'll tell a simple story i had a colleague at work she was a

20:59manager

21:00she said if her if her manager whoever she had at the time and in consulting you switch people that

21:05you work for if that person if she'd say something like on friday hey i got a big weekend this

21:10week you

21:10know what's going on um my kid's got a big soccer tournament okay if he would he or she would

21:15come

21:15back i think it was he in this case and say on tuesday or monday hey how was that soccer

21:20tournament

21:20so what was that five seconds and then listen to the answer she said i'd follow that person

21:25you know within reason to the ends of the earth because they remembered i asked him they cared

21:30enough to ask me and they cared enough to ask listen to the answer and it maybe took them they

21:34don't remember so that's a little bit of work and then maybe 90 seconds on monday to say how was

21:39the

21:39soccer tournament and she was she said i've just got this person i'm with them forever you know just

21:44small little things like that takes a little bit of time and what are you really doing you're

21:48thinking about the person what matters to them and engaging in simple ways in things that are

21:54important to them which ain't that hard but it takes also humbleness right it's not all about you

22:01it's i love your theme there about being humble and being vulnerable and being open and not being all

22:07about you when you're in charge or irresponsible you use that word but one of the things that that

22:15a memory you just triggered for me was about the interactions between an employee and the manager

22:22and the manager who doesn't listen and just dictates there was a you mentioned also how

22:28important good mentors more were to you how important good mentors were to you one for me

22:32was a guy by the name of bill pernett and he was a vice president of sales for a wholesale

22:36food

22:36company called alan foots in st louis many years ago and he was he is a good friend and

22:42just he's always been wonderful to me and one of the things he told me that i have never forgotten

22:47he said anytime there's an interaction between two people one is teaching the other one how to behave

22:52and if a young employee goes up to a manager and the manager just dictates and doesn't listen

22:59then that manager is just taught that young employee don't bring me ideas don't bring me

23:04observations just do what i tell you yeah yeah yeah and that's what that manager is teaching because

23:10that interaction one just taught the other one how to behave yeah i mean so that was one thing

23:16i was thinking if if a young person does nothing but complain every time they talk to anybody nothing

23:22but complaints complaints complaints well everyone's eventually going to stop listening to them

23:25and they also just trained the rest of the world if you're just a complainer don't listen

23:30you know which is correct it could go both ways it does go both ways 100 it's pretty interesting

23:37100 we were talking about even things like boundaries like if people if you're responsible

23:44for running an operation and you've got multiple locations and you're getting phone calls and emails

23:50from people that non-stop you'll never get your work done because you have trained them that if they

23:56call you or they email you you'll stop what you're doing take care of them right away

24:00you'll never get your own stuff it said you have trained them that it's okay to interrupt you you'll

24:04stop everything and do what they want right then i said if i were you i might say hey i

24:08check my emails

24:10at 11 o'clock and before lunch and i check them and and texts and i respond and i do

24:16the same thing

24:16at four o'clock before the day ends if you need if something is of urgent matter text me 9

24:22-1-1 but it

24:23needs to be of urgent matter because i'm going to teach you that i will i've got an operations run

24:28that i'm

24:28responsible for and i will handle my issues first because i'm responsible then i'm happy to be a

24:33team player and address whatever else needs to be and what are you teaching them you're teaching

24:36them either one to do it themselves because they're capable that's right a little independence or to

24:40contact someone else if they need help right now and if neither of those options are there then guess

24:47what i'll be able to at this time and setting up those kind of boundaries i mean for those of

24:52us

24:52who've been doing this for a while that it's kind of common sense but again for everyone else it isn't

24:56always but the whole comment about anytime there's an interaction between two people want to teach

25:00the other one how to behave that was a gift from bill pernatt that i have never let out of

25:06my grasp

25:06that is tucked away in the memory bank and and i use that one i'm reminded of that regularly i

25:12do want

25:12to shift gears a little bit though because we've been talking about early career professionals

25:15what is maybe one leadership lesson that only became clear to you after you had real responsibility

25:21for people at scale well that's well i do think the one i'm sorry when you say one i do

25:28think

25:28the ability to bring or the willingness to bring your human self somebody go back to earth to work

25:34and to be authentic or vulnerable whatever word you want you know or at least humble is essential

25:41and i you know i learned that during covid in particular and seven ran bc north america seven thousand

25:48people everybody's scared to death or whatever they were but you know they're all worried about

25:52where is it going i mean different what does it mean we lose our jobs we have to layoffs everyone

25:57had their own thing there and you know a couple quick stories i had one town hall what's what we

26:03call them this thing you know zoom or a different tool and i i was in my daughter's bedroom because

26:08i used to you know i stuck in my house but i used to traveling as a consultant i traveled

26:12four to

26:12five days a week so i would travel around my bedroom i'd go to my daughter's room for a while

26:16then i'd go to my my living room then i'd go to the you know hallway and i was in

26:20her bedroom and

26:21i was talking and what well one her bedroom had clouds and hearts on the wall i didn't realize i

26:28wasn't thinking about it but the the uh wallpaper but i was telling about my son-in-law contracted

26:34covid very early on and i choked up a little bit and this is the days when you didn't realize

26:39a 30

26:39year old kid would just it would go away most likely but you didn't know the first couple weeks

26:43i choked up oh my gosh the responses were phenomenal like i got emails oh my gosh you

26:50showed some humanity i've been sitting here scared to release anything you just freed me

26:54over and over you freed me you freed me and the same thing one time one time another thing i

27:00did

27:00was one more i woke up and thought i'm going to send a note to everybody i woke up at

27:04five and

27:054 45 was thinking about everybody and not every single human you know thinking about and i wrote this

27:12you know some of you are small apartments tripping over two dogs or two kids and two dogs you know

27:18just like however i want to let you know you know we're all here together and we're and i'm here

27:23for

27:24you etc etc saint and it was not terribly vulnerable but it was open it was honest it wasn't right

27:29a guy

27:29who runs a 7 000 team person team of bcg normally writes the responses were i got notes back it

27:36was

27:365 15 in the morning i got notes back across the country in seconds so other people are awake at

27:425 15 in the morning one you know so this whole idea of showing some humanity bringing some humanity

27:49i'm not saying be a wussy i'm not saying you got to make decisions you know this is all important

27:54but

27:55i think if you bring some humanity to it you make better decisions but sure i think that is the

28:01number

28:01one lesson that i did not i would not have known when i was 33 because you know you'd say

28:07oh my god

28:07i can't show any weaknesses i gotta be all the stuff you get taught and weakness is not humanity you

28:13know

28:13humanity is this you know it's your heart it's not a weak i'm not showing say be weak so i

28:19want to lean

28:19in a little bit more to your to your expertise your specialties and more about what your book's about

28:24when you talk about generous leadership some executives may hear nice leadership what is the

28:32difference between being generous and simply avoiding hard conversations yeah well to me i

28:38define being a generous leader as one who gives of themselves freely without expectation of direct

28:44personal benefit to enable others and help others to grow develop and thrive at their full potential

28:50kind of back to where you started with what you said to your son about the team if you're helping

28:55everyone grow and thrive that's the generous part and by the way everybody wins you win they win you

29:01know the team wins and that doesn't mean though i mean i'll give it once i told i talked to

29:06a leader

29:06once in north america guy who was working for me in the west coast and he had been a superstar

29:12in europe and he transferred to the u.s and he was struggling and he struggled for about two years

29:16and

29:16finally one day someone i told this story to another colleague he said how could you say this

29:19to him that's so harsh but we sat and i said listen my friend either you go home you quit

29:25or i fire you

29:26you pick nothing else those nine words and he's like whoa whoa oh my god thank you i've been thinking

29:32about this i mean it's not sleeping over it i'm going home he went home superstar again and someone

29:38how could you be so harsh well because i cared about him thriving and he wasn't thriving so leaving

29:44him there to wallow in failure would be me that would be me you know not telling him a straight

29:50pick one of these three in my opinion is a mean thing to do that means a big word it's

29:54not it's

29:55not very generous let's say that actually i think it's a bad it's not so quite frankly you know i

30:01people

30:01say you fire people pretty easily i said well if i can tell they're not going to make it at

30:05bcg

30:06yeah we pay a lot of money but otherwise why are they here they're not going to thrive they're not

30:10going to develop so the sooner you quote unquote fire them not fire them but say you're done you

30:15know you're not going to make it in that's the most generous thing one can do now i'd rather

30:20listen i went right to the edge because you asked about not being i did first first you engage with

30:25them ask them questions help them grow give them feedback give feedback in the moment sorry you got

30:30me go one other story there was once a 30 year old guy presenting to this c-suite executive team

30:36of us at our meeting ceo was in there and everybody else and he used the word like every other

30:42all the

30:43time you know i have people's 20 19 year olds say like or 70 and some grown-ups and when

30:48we finished

30:48we were debriefing the client had left and i said you know i said alex how old are you he

30:53said 30 and

30:54this in front of the entire team i knew this was gonna be i said i've never heard a 30

30:58year old say

30:58like like that you gotta stop right now he's like embarrassed what do you mean i said just and he

31:03said i said it said to me you know six months later that was the most embarrassing moment of my

31:07life

31:07but i've never said like since you know i don't say like anymore so and i knew it was i

31:13calculated the

31:14embarrassment factor was what was required to knock this out of him you know because he did not look

31:19good in front of the ceo saying like every third word it did not look good bryant wright taught me

31:25some in in our conversations about correction is care yeah good lines care he said as long you can

31:35deliver it in a way that is calm specific and grounded in observation yeah very good and i was

31:42like that couldn't have been said better i mean i i'm correcting you because i care about you i care

31:50about our team i care about everything and to not address this is a failure on my part

31:56calm very specific on this day this is what happened this was the outcome and this is how it

32:02impacted us to prevent this impact from coming again we need to if we find ourselves in this

32:07situation handle it differently such as option a b or c for these reasons to get outcomes that are

32:14different so very calm it's very specific and it's grounded observations like i saw what happened

32:19we experienced this so it's not an opinion like oh you suck or oh you're bad or oh you're mean

32:26like

32:26you're it's calm it's specific and it's grounded observation and i believe managers can adopt that

32:31and do things in that way they're gonna be much better off than those who don't yeah i mean go

32:36sorry

32:36go ahead no i was gonna say well and also i think the ground in specific is so critical and

32:41i'm gonna add

32:42one thing because so often someone a manager is afraid back to our starting conversation to tell someone

32:47they'll say hey you know that was a pretty good meeting but gosh i wish you'd do a little bit

32:51better so you ought to work on that you walk on what what the hell am i supposed to do

32:56but the

32:56manager's afraid or they didn't really observe or they start thinking hard about i want you to really

33:01be better and then you just hurt as we the other guy's gonna add to your point though is also

33:06the

33:06more it can be close to the moment the best you know walk out now not always sometimes someone

33:12might be really down and it's not the moment to beat him up you know you got it but the

33:16closer

33:16to the moment which is a little bit of your specific and observation you know if you can do

33:21it as you walk out of the room whatever it is you know it's really fresh in people's minds or

33:27if you

33:27can teach treat it as a teachable moment like look man i'm not here to to pile on here but

33:32yeah there's

33:33a lesson here that we can all benefit from and in this case you're the one that experienced it but

33:39this is a lesson that's been taught that others can benefit from and like to to act like this

33:45opportunity to learn how to improve didn't take place would be a mistake it's okay no one's perfect

33:51we do our best and we work on making our best better that's not piling on but back here go

33:57ahead

33:57go ahead you go i was just saying you founded bcg's center for inclusion equity what did you learn about

34:03inclusion that many senior leaders still misunderstand well a couple things i think

34:09well that's so funny that many senior leaders i could think of maybe some of the senior leaders

34:12and i'm sorry in my country yeah i think the one thing when i say the word i mean inclusion

34:17can

34:17mean two means it can mean more in the context of diversity and when i say inclusion i actually mean

34:23including people who are going to have ideas and thoughts and insights that you don't know

34:29and actually the more you can go and this is a little bit again back to the store but the

34:32more

34:32you can go to those people that um and engage them so i i'm a big believer in as a

34:38leader you know have

34:39a junior finance person in there you know if you're going to get a debrief on something don't just have

34:44the vice president of finance who's going to tell you what the manager told him who could tell you

34:49what the analyst work they did bring the analyst in the room and you know say okay and have them

34:54explain the analysis one you get a better answer actually every leader i spoke with loved walking

34:59the halls quote unquote and talking to you know people down on the front lines quote unquote about

35:05what's really going on not everyone the good ones the good ones so that's you know that i think when

35:10i say inclusive i mean i often say you know well actually it's a funny story when i had my

35:15first

35:15worldwide officer meeting when i was head of north america and my first time i was gonna be with my

35:19entire team and i had to prep for it and someone said to me afterwards that was the weirdest thing

35:24i said

35:24what do you mean well you had your secretary so yeah i trust her yeah your chief of staff it

35:28sort

35:29of made sense you had two senior partners you had your religious person and you had your wife i said

35:34well those are the people i trust and they're all my wife will tell me the truth my chief of

35:38staff

35:38would tell me the truth my secretary telling the truth the two people that were senior partners

35:42that work with me may not tell me the truth you know what i mean but all those other people

35:45are

35:45going to tell me the truth and so i had a rather inclusive because they said most people just bring

35:50their four you know number twos in and plan the meeting and what are you going to say boss

35:55so what i mean my inclusion is really bringing into your circle in any way at the appropriate moments

36:01at times people from sideways in a team and up and down in an organization now i can also go

36:08to

36:08inclusion on diversity but that's a different thing one of the i learned a lot from bryant wright when we

36:13got together to write the book built right and inclusion was one of the things which is why i asked

36:18you

36:18this question because i really wanted your take on it his take was very similar but because he did it

36:24in a coaching environment his example was a little different he said again and this is a guy who

36:30coached a team that in the last 17 years the worst finish his boys cross country team had in 17

36:36years

36:37was second place and they won eight of them in a row and one of the things he talked about

36:43as a

36:43priority was inclusion and belonging and he said winning now and winning later are not mutually

36:48exclusive choices if you can create a culture by which everyone feels included and i said what

36:53does that look like can you describe that to me and he said i can he said a chubby freshman

36:59who's never

37:00run before isn't going to be able to train with compete or outperform a senior who's an all-state

37:07athlete medalist or state champion he goes how do i make that freshman feel part

37:16when he can't contribute at that level yet yeah of course he said he goes he goes i wanted everybody

37:23to feel they belonged regardless of their ability to contribute results right now he said what i asked

37:30from everybody was 100 percent effort he goes because that chubby freshman who's never run before

37:36can give me the same 100 effort for himself that a state champion can give he goes when that's the

37:42standard everyone knows we give 100 percent whatever that is for us he goes because if we didn't have

37:49that then the lean experienced juniors and seniors who've been winning trophies they're going to lean

37:56in and everyone else is going to hold back and play it safe and the message to the people on

38:01the team

38:01is that some people matter more than others he goes and i didn't want that poison in the minds of

38:07my

38:09athletes yeah and i well look how he he he trained that's awesome i use one thing i didn't realize

38:15i did it but as

38:16i thought about it when i in the business context if i had a meeting with let's say seven or

38:21eight people

38:21or whatever i'd always walk in the room and identify i think about maybe in france what would

38:27you have people say when do you have time to prep well while you're walking to the meeting room

38:30you've got 10 you're smart think in two minutes you know and but i would always ask the least tenured

38:36person in the room i first off i'd greet them first always and i'd ask them some question and it

38:42just

38:43the whole room would be like whoa why did he ask him or her boss asked it just sent a

38:49whole and they

38:49felt like they belong now if it's a hard question i might have put them on the spot it wasn't

38:52going to

38:52be a hard question that wasn't the point but it just changed the whole dynamic oh i see this isn't

38:57just about the four senior people there's a bunch of underlings taking notes this is about us it's

39:02it's very simple to do there's simple ways to actually show you care about everybody and you

39:10want to include them even though to your point different people are going to contribute at

39:13different levels depending on where they are in experience and skill set and all that stuff i mean

39:19that's just a given but what bryant pointed out to me he said but that chubby freshman who's never

39:24run may be the greatest athlete in the history of our program we just don't know it yet and if

39:31we

39:32and if that kid doesn't feel he doesn't feel a part of it he doesn't want to participate the next

39:36year

39:37then that is opportunity lost forever yeah that's great that's great and he literally had a guy this

39:45year he's gonna be running for iowa state last year that was probably one of the top 50 high school

39:49cross-country runners in the nation his name's carson dreamyer and this kid was state champ this

39:54year he was state champ last i think two-time state champion and i'm not positive i think he

39:58holds the record for the fastest time ever run on the missouri state high school cross-country course

40:02of any class and you look at how talented and he's a hard-working young man too but if you

40:07look at a

40:08young man that's that hard-working it's that talented that sets that kind of example what would have

40:13happened if if the word when he was in eighth grade it's like oh you don't want to be part

40:17of

40:17those guys they're arrogant jerks you don't want to be associated with those guys or or he got on

40:23the team as a freshman and that people treated him like oh freshmen carry the coolers freshmen set up

40:27the tent he's like or you know or you're not good enough so why bother right and the odd thing

40:34was

40:34the the culture that bryant built at that team and the team was festus high school in festus missouri

40:40that bryant coached at but he set it up where the seniors actually carried the coolers the seniors

40:47actually set up the tents they led by example their accomplishments did not absolve them of

40:53additional responsibility it required additional responsibility of them and he just like he just

41:01figured so much of this stuff out so i this conversations like this really fascinate me

41:05and engage me we could probably talk for hours and i'm certainly good but for those who listen

41:10first of all i really appreciate all your time i learned a lot and you've inspired my thinking in

41:15new ways and i hope those watching and listening feel the same way i'm certain many do if people

41:20want to know more about you your book the kind of consulting work you do now speak engagements what

41:24are the best ways for people to learn more and to connect with you moving forward yeah well thank

41:30you for asking that actually i enjoyed this conversation too i will say it's also interesting

41:35because this whole idea of leadership you know people like oh it's in business but you just talked

41:39to me about a coach i mean that's why you can be a generous it's and by the way all

41:44most of these

41:44apply to being a parent too let's just you know so many aspects of your life where if you're a

41:49listener

41:50and you're a little bit humble and show some humanity it's going to benefit you so i think the easiest

41:55way

41:55is i have to have a website that's just joe davis.com very simple you can you know there's a

42:01little bit

42:01about me on there and um there's a way to contact me there that's the easiest way and yeah i

42:07mean

42:07if you want to read the book more power to them if they listen to this and learn a few

42:11things and

42:12you and i move a few people then i'm really happy for both of us quite frankly i do like

42:17to speak if

42:17someone wants to i know you said my own consulting actually after 37 years at bcg and before that six

42:23years uh procter and gamble i'm not a private consultant anymore i gotcha you know if i'm if you

42:30can believe it i'm 68 years old that's uh those days are those days are over however engaging with folks

42:36and talking about it people want to reach out i you can also i'm on linkedin and if you put

42:42a

42:42message on linkedin i will respond i will give you my email now if you want me to tell me

42:47how to sell

42:47more books i'm not going to respond but you know if you want to engage on something i will give

42:52you

42:52my email and engage i love engaging with people as i can tell you do too actually so i do

42:57it's joe it's

42:59been a pleasure having you on thank you so much i appreciate your time and your wisdom and your uh

43:06just your your your authenticity you're a great dude and with a lot of valuable information and

43:11i hope everyone learned as much as i did thank you thank you

43:17you

How Leaders Accidentally Train Employees to Stop Thinking | Joe Davis

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