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Why do talented employees stop speaking up, departments refuse to cooperate, and CEOs struggle to build accountable teams? Barry Moline shares leadership lessons from 29 years as a CEO, including how to resolve workplace conflict, build trust, improve employee engagement, and get teams working together.

In this episode of The Workforce Alchemy Show, host Mason Duchatschek interviews Barry Moline, award-winning author of "Connect: How to Quickly Collaborate for Success in Business and Life."

Barry reveals how he inherited organizations divided by competing departments, helped coordinate hurricane power restoration efforts across Florida, and learned what makes executives effective when decisions cannot wait.

One particularly revealing story involves Florida Governor Jeb Bush confronting utility executives after a poorly coordinated hurricane restoration effort. What happened next changed how competing organizations prepared for disasters and collaborated under pressure.

BUSINESS LEADERSHIP LESSONS YOU'LL DISCOVER:

• CEO accountability: Why great leaders take responsibility without pretending to know everything.
• Workplace conflict resolution: How to rebuild trust between departments with competing priorities.
• Crisis leadership: What hurricane recovery teaches about preparation, communication, and decision-making under pressure.
• Employee engagement: Why capable employees hesitate to share ideas and how to encourage them to speak up.
• Leadership development: How to recognize potential and develop employees into confident contributors.
• Team building: Why personal relationships established before a crisis improve collaboration when it matters.
• Career advancement: How volunteering for unexpected responsibilities helped Barry become a CEO.

Barry also shares a practical example of helping a quiet IT director become comfortable contributing in executive meetings, plus the remarkable story of how raising his hand as a teenage hockey referee eventually opened doors to CEO positions.

If you're a business owner, CEO, executive, HR manager, or team leader looking to improve accountability, strengthen workplace culture, and build a more collaborative leadership team, this interview offers practical strategies from decades of executive experience.

ABOUT BARRY MOLINE:
Barry Moline spent 29 years as a CEO and is the award-winning author of "Connect: How to Quickly Collaborate for Success in Business and Life."

Get Barry's 30 workplace-appropriate icebreakers:
https://barrymoline.com/resources

CONNECT WITH WORKFORCE ALCHEMY:
Website: https://workforcealchemy.com/
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CONNECT WITH MASON DUCHATSCHEK:
Website: https://masonduchatschek.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/masonduchatschek/
Transcript
00:02Welcome to the Workforce Alchemy Show, hosted by Mason Dubichek. I'm Mason, and this episode
00:08is brought to you by WorkforceAlchemy.com, where business leaders discover practical ways to select,
00:14engage, and retain their best employees. Today's guest, Barry Moline, spent 29 years as a CEO,
00:20including leading utility organizations through hurricanes, major change, and high-stakes
00:25decisions where teamwork really mattered. He's the award-winning author of Connect,
00:31and his leadership insights have appeared in Forbes and other national media. Today,
00:35we're going to find out what nearly three decades in the CEOC taught him about getting people to
00:42work together when it counts. Welcome to the show. Mason, it's great to be with you. I'm really
00:46looking forward to the conversation. So, over 29 years as a CEO, you saw a lot of different
00:51leadership styles. What is one leadership behavior that you repeatedly saw that made teams better?
00:58And can you give us an example of what it looked like in practice? Yeah, I would say, well, let's
01:04see, as part of my job running two trade associations over 29 years, my counterparts, my clients,
01:15my customers, were all CEOs of electric utilities. And I would say that one characteristic that I saw
01:24in everyone repeatedly, well, let me preface this and say that everyone comes into leadership
01:30from a different perspective. Some people's background is in customer service. Some is in
01:36engineering. Some is in science. Some is in liberal arts. I mean, people are capable of moving into
01:43leadership from many different ways. So, there's no one ladder that says you got to follow this.
01:50I would say that the one attribute that I found in all the CEOs was that they, I should say
01:59is,
01:59is that they all own the situation that they're in. They're all responsible for what's going on.
02:06They don't play victims. They, they look around, they assess the situation, and then they say,
02:13here's a plan to move forward. Let's move forward. And, and the point of that is that if you ask,
02:21I don't know, random people on the street, would you like to be the CEO of this organization?
02:26And most people would say, well, yeah, sure. I want to make all that money. And then you say,
02:30and here's the long list of responsibilities that you have. And while I would tell you, I would like
02:36to work a 40 hour week. I didn't work many 40 hour weeks when I was a CEO, I was
02:41working a lot more.
02:42And that doesn't mean that you have to work a lot of hours. What it means is that you're responsible
02:47for a lot of things. And if your time is needed, then you have to give your time. So I
02:53think that
02:54being responsible and, and making sure that stuff gets done, you know, looking at those big goals and
03:01keeping all your people on track, being responsible is the most important characteristic that I found
03:08across the board. That's, that's an interesting common denominator. And I agree with you. I don't
03:13know that would have popped in my head first, but that's a very valid point about people rising in
03:18leadership positions from all those different areas. Like you said, it could be someone in finance.
03:22It could be someone in sales or marketing, but that what you just popped out is a very relevant
03:28and accurate common denominator. I thanks for sharing that. Yeah. And I would say that, that it's funny
03:34that, that you, that you, that I saw that. I agree. Yeah. But because even people that did not have
03:45the technical skills. So let's say I worked in electric utilities, obviously when I had somebody who was a
03:52I had one who came from a background of public relations, just PR, that's how they rose up in
03:59the organization. And along the way, they learned some of the technical skills they needed to know,
04:05but there were times when she and I were working together where she was unsure of something
04:11technically. And she would just say, I'm not really sure what this is. Could you explain that?
04:16And I was happy to explain and everybody around her was happy to explain. And she was confident
04:22enough to be vulnerable and say, I don't know something. I want to learn it. And then when she
04:29learned it, she knew it. So it's not about how much, you know, as a CEO, it's how well you
04:35bring
04:36people together. And even when you don't know something, pulling your team together to use your
04:41hive brain to, to learn something and then move forward with it.
04:46I'm not, I'm not positive, but I think it was Steve Jobs that said, I don't hire smart people
04:50and tell them what to do. I hire smart people so they can tell me what to do.
04:54Yeah, that's it.
04:56You think you, you, you got to own it. And if you have some, you're surrounded by smart people
05:00and you're smart enough to listen to those smart people who know more about a lot of things than
05:04you do makes life a lot easier and makes better decisions happen faster. But, but you got to be
05:10willing to be vulnerable and, and not put on that facade that, Oh, I know everything. Cause I've got
05:14this title. And I think there are folks out there that make that mistake. So I know you spent years
05:19bringing together people who sometimes might've started with strongly opposing positions. Can you
05:24perhaps tell us about a situation where people were far apart at the beginning and what helped
05:29them start working together?
05:31When I started each of my two CEO positions, this was, this was hidden from me. They didn't divulge
05:39all of this, or at least they didn't divulge it in a way that was as serious as it was.
05:43They,
05:44I came into two situations where there were warring factions. And in both cases, you know, I was,
05:52I, I came into organizations that I did not know. I didn't move up in the organization.
05:57I, I was brought in from the outside. I wasn't brought in as the person to, to be the fixer.
06:03I was brought in just as a, somebody to continue the, the good leadership that they had had in the
06:10past, or at least so I thought. But when I arrived, I started talking to people and everybody was
06:15putting all the other silos down. Oh, that department stinks. So that person's no good.
06:20I said, I don't trust them or, or they're out there on their own and who knows what they're
06:24doing. And it was just sort of complaint after complaint. And, and in both cases I did the,
06:30well, yeah, in both cases I took the same approach. And the first time I did it, I would say
06:36that I
06:36really didn't know what I was doing. I mean, I just wasn't sure. The second time when I, when I
06:42came
06:42into this difficult situation as a new CEO and I, I recognized the problem, I said, aha,
06:49I didn't know what the solution was, but I, at least I recognized the problem. I said, aha,
06:53here I am again in a place where nobody's getting along. So at least I understood that. But the first
06:59time it was more instinctual and I was a new CEO. I had been a senior manager before. And what
07:07I did
07:07was I, I committed to talking to everyone. So I, I literally just made appointments to either sit
07:16down outside of work, took people out to lunch and spent a few hours just asking them, what do you
07:23think about this or that? And just try to get them comfortable with me and listen to what their
07:28concerns were. And by doing so, most people opened up. I also found a few people that were seeing a
07:36bigger picture. We're seeing a picture sort of like me. And I found that I could rely on those
07:43folks to be advisors. You know, they, they were, they were coming at the situation. Like one, for
07:50example, was, was the general counsel. So the senior legal officer in the organization. And I thought he
07:57didn't want my job and he liked his job. He still saw the bigger picture. He saw where the various
08:03warring factions were. And he pointed them out. He didn't say one's right or another's right. He just
08:09said, this is what's happening. And then as I would go and talk to them, I would, I would listen
08:14to their
08:14situation and find out what their perspective was. Ultimately, it came down to hearing everyone,
08:21making everyone feel heard. And, and they, that had not happened before. The previous CEO was just
08:28covered his ears and said, I'm done with you people. And, and I'm not going to take any of this
08:34stuff anymore. So I listened to everybody. I didn't think everybody was necessarily right,
08:39but nevertheless, I listened to everybody. And, and after listening to folks, I could begin to see
08:45where, where, where, who was not getting along with who. And then slowly I brought them together and,
08:51and I explained, Hey, they, you guys have something in common. You're both trying to accomplish this.
08:57And then they sort of grudgingly said, yeah, yeah, I guess we are. Okay. Well,
09:02they didn't feel like they were best friends in any way, but they did see that they had activities,
09:07interests, and, and certainly goals of the company in common. And what I then did was just tried to
09:13focus on, on those common goals, those common actions that they were working on to, and then when
09:21they accomplished something together, we celebrated that. So this was a sort of a, I don't know,
09:28six month to 18 month process of listening, identifying where the hiccups were, where the
09:36overlapping interests were, bringing people together on those overlapping interests. And then
09:42once people got to know each other better, then they started to say, you know, I, I, I kind of
09:48like
09:49that person. They didn't have to love them, love each other, but they, but they did need to
09:53respect each other and, and at least tolerate each other. And once we got to that situation where they
10:00said, I, I have some things in common, then we were able to talk about bigger purpose ideas
10:06and move toward them. We never gave up on the, on the actions to help people get to know each
10:12other.
10:12Things like doing icebreakers before meetings and, and icebreakers being, you know, going around a room
10:19or whether it's a room or a couple people, you know, tell me about a favorite food you had growing
10:24up. And then that would be it. Just name the food, my grandma's fruitcake. Okay. Well, we don't talk
10:31about it then, but later I want those two people to get together and say, oh yeah, you mentioned your
10:38grandma's fruitcake. What's the story behind that? And then they will find something in common there.
10:42So you can't have everybody talking about all their big, wonderful background. That would be in
10:48the entire meeting. It could be an entire day, who knows, but at least plant the seeds of, of
10:54interest where people can follow up with each other. It's, I just read a book. She's in full
10:59disclosure. She's a friend of mine. Her name's Marlene Chisholm. And she wrote a book called
11:03From Conflict to Courage. And I just beat engagement a week or two ago in Alaska. And I read, I
11:07had plenty of
11:08time in the airplane to read her book. And she kind of touched on what you're saying. She said,
11:12the one with the clarity steers the ship. And step one is recognizing where you are,
11:18which is what you, exactly what you described is, is you got input from all these other people.
11:22You didn't just rush to make changes. You got input from all these people, got to know these
11:26people and got them to trust you and like you. So you had a good bearing from everybody, like where
11:31you were and you had clarity and vision of where you wanted to go. So that's another step is like
11:35she
11:35said, picture yourself in a boat. Where are we? And two, where's the island? Where are we heading?
11:40And it sounds like you had clarity about what you had and where you were and what you were working
11:45with. And you knew where you wanted to go and were able to lead the ship from that. So I
11:49just
11:49found everything that you said very congruent with what she was talking about in her book.
11:53It's an excellent book, by the way, for those that are listening from Conflict to Courage by Marlene
11:57Chisholm. But yeah, excellent. By the way, it's not, it's not easy in the moment. In the moment,
12:03it's very emotional and it's hard to stay neutral in these kinds of situations. So just to be clear,
12:11yeah, you're in a tough situation. Hmm. What do I do here? I've got to do the best to stay
12:16neutral
12:16and not take sides, you know, listen to everybody. And here she talked about too. She said, you know,
12:23if you're here, you're in the boat and you're looking at the island, she goes off in the side,
12:26there's the island of distraction. And that's when people start, they feel some heat or they feel
12:31some discomfort and they want to distract from the vision. They want to distract from the focus.
12:35And she talks about having difficult conversations with people that, like you said, it's not easy,
12:41but it doesn't mean it's not necessary. And she talks about stating the purpose. Hi, John Doe.
12:46The purpose of this meeting is to talk about how we are going to get from where we are to
12:51this
12:51particular outcome. And then John Doe starts talking about, you don't understand. Billy's not
12:55doing his part or Susie's not doing her part. And they start distracted. She's like, I understand.
12:59I hear you. And that's worth having a discussion about. But right now, the topic of this conversation
13:05is how do we get from where we are to this particular outcome and bringing it back to
13:08the outcome of the focus, not allowing as a leader to get sucked off to the island of distraction.
13:15And that's the part that isn't easy because especially when you arrived in an environment
13:19like you did, or there's a lot of stuff going on and a lot of people legitimately distracted and
13:26capable of and probably wanting to cause more distraction, whether intentionally or not.
13:31But my point is, is I respect and appreciate what you're saying about how difficult it is to do that
13:35and to stay on point and stay focused on your outcome and to align all those competing agendas
13:41and get them to align in the direction that you want to go. Much easier said than done, but at
13:46least
13:46you had the clarity to recognize, hey, here's where I am. I'm going to take the time to get to
13:50know
13:50my bearings and where I'm at first. And I am going to chart the course because I do have the
13:54clarity and here's where we're going and then to mobilize those folks around that vision.
13:57Kudos to you.
13:58So you managed hurricane restoration efforts in Florida for many years. What did those high
14:03pressure situations teach you about how leaders should communicate when people are stressed,
14:09information is incomplete, and decisions can't wait?
14:11I think the most important thing was the way we prepared. We know hurricanes are going to come.
14:19We know that when they come, all hell breaks loose. I mean, it's not just,
14:24the hurricane. Yeah, you have to survive the storm. But then afterwards, no power, maybe no water,
14:31banks are closed, schools are closed, businesses are closed. It's a mess. There's garbage thrown
14:37everywhere and so on. It's really important to think about what goes wrong and talk about those
14:44in advance. And I think it was Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan until you get punched in the
14:51nose. I love that. It is true.
14:54Yeah. And so every situation is going to be different is basically what he's talking about.
15:00And what we did as a team, and I'll tell you what is the team, is we had a team
15:07in our association that
15:09was in charge of the restoration for dozens of utilities and sometimes hundreds of utilities because
15:18we would be looking at restoring power to the utilities in Florida, but also bringing in line
15:25workers from people outside of Florida that were in other states. So we were dealing with people
15:30at the local level, at the state level, and at the national level. And it sounds easy when you're
15:39talking about it. You know, the plan, right? Here's the plan before we get punched in the nose.
15:43What we talked about was, so hurricane is coming. What do we do as a staff internally? What do we
15:52do?
15:52And we talked about how we need to prepare. I'm not going to walk through every element of it,
15:57but how we need to prepare ourselves. We need to prepare our families and that we are going to be
16:03away for a while, that we're going to be working a lot of extra hours. We need to then prepare
16:08the
16:08utilities that we work with and keep them posted on where the storm is heading, that here are the
16:16phone numbers to contact. If the phone numbers don't work, here's the satellite phone information,
16:23you know, all kinds of backup plans so that everybody is prepared. In the moment, you know,
16:29you're going to, we're going to be in touch with people. Some are new, some haven't been through
16:35the process. So it's a, it's a, it's a constant reminder of here's what we do in the moment,
16:41even though we may have planned three months ago or six months ago. Oh, don't you remember? We did,
16:46we talked about this six months ago. Like, no, I don't remember. You know, I'll remember what you
16:51said an hour ago or maybe yesterday, but that's about it. So it then, you know, when folks are in
16:57the path of the storm, what do they do? And then getting ready people from outside the state to be
17:02able to
17:03come into Florida. So there's many levels of, of communication all before the storm is about to
17:10hit. So we talk about those and, and get people ready for that situation so that when the storm
17:16is coming, we can then get in touch with everyone and say, okay, we're putting the plan into effect.
17:22Here's A, B, C, D, here's what we're going to do. And, and we'll be in touch. And what's interesting
17:27about the, that process is what puts additional, or I should say extra icing pressure on the cake
17:34is that it was my job to interact with the governor. So I would be communicating with the utilities and,
17:43you know, on a daily basis, on a day-to-day basis, no, no utilities job is going to be
17:49to be talking to
17:51the governor of the state, right? So, however, when there's a storm and people are without power,
17:56the governor wants to know what's going on in a variety of places. And if there's a problem
18:00somewhere, the governor wants to maybe help step in, whatever, do you need assistance? So,
18:06but that was my job was to communicate with the governor. So we would, I would communicate with
18:11my utilities and say, I need this information by this time. And if you don't give it to me,
18:16the next phone call you're going to get is from the governor. So do you want to talk to the
18:21governor
18:22who's going to tell you what's, what's the problem in your community? Or would you prefer just to talk
18:28to little old Barry, who's, you know, who's going to help you to, to restore your power? And that,
18:34and that was a good way for people to understand the seriousness of, of the situation. I mean,
18:42obviously it's serious. You want to restore power in your community, but, but people don't want to be
18:47on the front page of any newspaper, you know, any, any phone or tablet, whatever it is. They don't
18:55want to be on the front page being made a fool of, you know, because the governor said you did
19:00a bad
19:00job. So we did all that planning in advance and all that communication in advance to, so, cause we
19:07knew we were going to be stressed. And, but when you're prepared, then you're just going through
19:12the motions and, and this, while you still have to act, you are, you know, it's sort of like being
19:19a short order cook. You've got a lot of things going on. You've got a lot of orders coming down
19:25the path. You just have to do it and move it along and do it and move it along. And,
19:31and I think the
19:31point from all that is that the, is, is helping people or letting, making sure people know that you're
19:38there to help that our big goal is to restore power and restore normalcy to society. But
19:44preparation was the most important thing that we did. And it sounds to me like what I hear you saying
19:49clearly is to be proactive when you recognize, Hey, it'd be stressful. There's not going to be
19:55complete information and decisions aren't going to have, you're not going to have a bunch of time
19:59to dilly dally around and make decisions. You were proactive in getting the important information
20:04to the right people. You've also established lanes of responsibility and explained why it was
20:09important in this case. Like, yeah, I don't want you to end up having, you know, the front page for
20:14something bad. And I had a guy, Vance Morris was on the podcast. He was a former Disney executive.
20:19And he said, the first thing you do is you tell people what to do, tell them how to do
20:23it. And you
20:23tell them why it's important. And he said, most people miss that third step about why
20:26because that's the engagement one. And you didn't miss that. You literally told them, here's why it's
20:31important because you can be talking to the governor and up on the front page for something bad, or
20:35I can handle it. Well, given those two choices, I think I'd rather not end up on the front page
20:39for something bad. I understand the why you have you as someone who would be reporting to you or on
20:44your team. I would be very clear about what my preference would be there. I would be happy to
20:50stay in my lane instead of the governor's. Yeah. And, and, and also in part of that is I would
20:57tell
20:57people, this is all you have to do. You don't have to do 20 things in front of you. I
21:02just need
21:02you to do one thing. Just do this. And if you do that, that'll be okay. So people often see
21:07an
21:08emergency and they see so many actions or ideas floating around. It's really important just to
21:15focus their attention, just get this done. And then, then we can move to the next step. And once they
21:21stay focused, it becomes easier. That's very smart because when people are stressed out,
21:26their, their clarity of thinking isn't there, their decision-making is compromised. And if you,
21:30and as someone who's leading people who do important roles, I'd much rather give them
21:35clarity and precision as they do these simple things well, then try to do a whole bunch of things
21:41and haven't end up being done poorly. Like I totally give you a perspective on that. So you've described
21:47an early hurricane restoration in the past that didn't go well, followed by a review that helped
21:52the organization improve. What did you learn from that experience about how leaders should examine
21:56failure without creating a culture of blame? Because I could see where that might be a tendency
21:59for some. So the, so this was an experience that we had in 2007. We had not had a hurricane
22:07in the
22:08state for almost 10 years and 10 years is a lifetime in the career of, well, shoot, any organization.
22:16You can have, you know, almost an entire staff that turns over. I mean, you, a lot of people, you
22:23know,
22:24change jobs in 10 years in an organization and utilities, you know, they stick around for a long time.
22:29So, so you have a lot of people that have moved around and we, we weren't preparing for hurricanes.
22:36We were just like, yeah, hurricane comes, you know, we'll deal with it. Maybe it'll, it'll hit one
22:41portion of the state and then we'll be done. This particular hurricane, Hurricane Charlie, which
22:46was the first one was, was like a five mile wide tornado that entered Tampa, went through Orlando
22:55and exited Daytona. So it was, it created a ton of devastation and it did it fast. And we stunk.
23:03The utilities were terrible. And in Florida, there's a lot of utilities and we were just like
23:09one-armed paper hangers. We were just all trying to get it all done at once, do it ourselves without
23:16coordination. And the power was out for two weeks. It was highly disruptive. And, and we just thought,
23:23well, I guess that's how it is when, when a hurricane hits, it's, you know, it's like a war zone.
23:27And, and after everybody was restored a few weeks later, the governor called us into our office. It
23:33was Jeb Bush called us into his office. And, and we thought, you know, we were heroic. We had
23:38restored power. Yes. It took two weeks, but, but gosh, by the end of it, you know, people were happy
23:44to have their lights on and, and, and we thought he was going to be thanking us. And instead he
23:51kind of
23:51read us the riot act, he, he told us that we were, we had done a rotten job that we
23:57disrupted society
23:59and we had to figure out a way to, to do better. And he said, I don't know what it's
24:04going to take,
24:05but you all need to work together. And these were utilities that, that weren't used to getting along
24:11together. They weren't used to, they didn't really like each other that much. And the, and this is all
24:18personality driven. It was, had nothing to do with the poles and wires. They were all the same.
24:23It was just different ownership and we do things differently here and, and we're better and all
24:28that. And he said, and I'm going to leave the room now. You're going to stay here and you're
24:33going to figure out today what to do. And we were like, wait a minute. No, how about if we,
24:38we leave,
24:40we'll, we'll send our people to do it and then, then we'll come back and figure it out. And he
24:44said,
24:44no, I'm going to come back in an hour. I'm going to check on you, but you're going to do
24:48it now.
24:49And he had the CEOs in the room and, and then he left and we looked at each other like,
24:54I got to
24:55talk to you. I don't like you. I'm, I'm, you're fighting me over here and over here. You're, you
25:00know, wait, what? And we, you know, sighed and said, okay, well, let's try to figure this out. And,
25:08and we started talking to each other and we realized that probably the most important thing
25:14that we did not do well was we didn't talk to each other during the storm. We didn't,
25:21we didn't lean on each other for help. We didn't even know each other's phone numbers or our
25:26operations people didn't know each other's phone numbers. And we said, we got to coordinate better.
25:31And that became the basis for everything that we did going forward. We, we switched from a
25:40perspective of only I can do it alone and I'm going to do a great job and I'm going to
25:45be the
25:45hero to let's work together on this storm. I'm going to need help on the next storm. You're going
25:51to need help. We're going to help each other. We're going to lean on each other. And when we finally,
25:55you know, we said those words and when we, when we finally like felt them in our heart,
26:01we went out and did it. We got our staffs working together. And by staffs, I mean, this,
26:05these are hundreds of line workers getting together before a storm, talking about how to
26:11work better together. And we did that when the sky was blue. So we committed to doing that. And
26:17it wasn't, it wasn't cheap. It's not cheap to get people moving around and, and having meetings
26:22and talking about how to do things better. But then when the next storm came, we were ready.
26:27We knew who to call. It's funny you say that. I don't know if funny is the right word, but
26:33I think about interpersonal connection a lot. And yes, it does take extra time. Yes,
26:38it does take extra energy, but it's worth it. And case in point, if I'm in your shoes and some
26:44other, somebody runs some other utility, I'm like, I'm busy. Screw that guy. I don't care what happens
26:50to him. I just handle my business, which that's what I'm responsible for. I get, but it's difference
26:54between screw that guy and that's Tom or that Susie. I'm not going to leave Tom or Susie hanging out
27:01to dry. It's, it's not just business. It's personal. And that's a two way street. Hey,
27:05if I've, if I've taken time to get to know these people and they know, Hey, I'm a good guy.
27:09My
27:09heart's in the right place. I'm doing my best and I'll do my best to support my people and the
27:13customers and the people that I work with to support my people and my customers. And they
27:17realize, Hey, Mason's a good guy. Then it's not to me. Hey, screw that guy. It's me. I'm not
27:20going to wet Mason down. And yes, it does require some extra effort. Yes, it does require some
27:24extra time. But I think it was Ben Franklin says, wise man who fixes his roof before it rains.
27:30And I think it was Mark Twain that said, when you need a friend, it's too late to make one.
27:33Those guys are right, man. Yeah. For the exact reason you're talking about.
27:38And yeah, you know, recently I was talking to a friend of mine who is the, actually is a neighbor
27:44who is the women's basketball coach for Sacramento state university. They're a division one school
27:51and it's a high level program. And I asked him, what kind of things do you do to promote
27:57teamwork? And I really had no idea what he would say. And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah. We go hiking.
28:03We go to, we go to trivia contests. We, we play Scrabble together. We, we walk dogs. We do like,
28:12wait, what? Wait, I'm sorry. You're a basketball team. What are you talking about? He said,
28:18our teamwork gels off the court because when we're on the court, we drill, we know the plays. The key
28:26is it's exactly what you said, Mason. When I'm making a pass from me to Ginger, I like Ginger. I
28:34want her to score and I'm, I'm going to make the best pass I possibly can so that she can
28:40be in the
28:40best position she can to score for our team. And that off the court exercise really works. And,
28:48and in the world of work, we, we tend to discount those activities, those teamwork activities. And,
28:55you know, make a friend before you need one is, is really what it's all about. And it's kind of
29:01amazing to the ability to slow. It doesn't take a lot of time out of our day or, or, or
29:06out of our week
29:07or out of our month. But when we do slow down and find out what's going on in someone's world,
29:12we're making that connection. So what are some of the most common things that you've seen leaders do
29:17often, even with good intentions that actually make employees less willing to speak up or take
29:21responsibility? That's a good question. I think that leaders that are, that are really hard driving
29:29sort of my way or the highway, not seeking input from their colleagues, you know, even your,
29:37your comment earlier about Steve Jobs, you know, I hire people to tell me what to do is what, I
29:43mean,
29:43what, what Jobs was really saying was that it's important for people to, to share what they know.
29:51And it's, and, and, but people won't do that on the road unless the leader creates a space where
29:57people are allowed to disagree. They're allowed to disagree with each other. They're allowed to
30:02disagree with the leader themselves. And so it's important for a leader, a facilitator to say,
30:10we're just sharing ideas here. Even if we disagree with each other, we're just presenting ideas and
30:16putting them on the table. Let's get them all on the table and then we'll evaluate each one and we'll
30:21see, we'll prioritize and figure out which ones we need to address. Nevertheless, let's create that
30:27space where all ideas are welcome. And I see so many leaders that feel as though, Hey, I've seen
30:33this before. I got the experience. I know in my gut, I know what the answer is. Let me just
30:37tell
30:38you what we're going to do. Or I've heard from two people. Now I know the answer. The leader has
30:43to
30:43open up and, and do everything to make sure that everyone feels safe sharing information,
30:49even when that information won't land well, when it's not, when it's, when it's a bad news.
30:55I'm really glad I read Marlene's book recently because all this stuff is fresh in my mind. But
30:59one of the things she talked about, because part of my question was, what are some of the things
31:04that leaders do often with good intentions? And one of the things she talked about in her book was
31:09the hero leader. I'm going to jump in and save the day. I know how to do it. It's kind
31:12of exactly
31:13what you're talking about. I know what to do. I'm going to jump in. I'm going to save the day.
31:16I know
31:16the answers. And what does that teach everyone else to do? Sit back, watch them and let them do
31:21it. And then the leader becomes the bottleneck or the constraint on what the team can accomplish if
31:26they make a habit of doing that. So even though the intention is good, Hey, I'm going to help.
31:30I'm going to solve this problem. Are they really developing the strength of the team? Are they
31:34really utilizing all the talent? And they may be able to get by with it once or twice. They may
31:38be
31:38right once or twice, but to base a career out of, or every day where that is the rule,
31:44that kind of behavior is the rule. The hero leader, the identity of the hero leader becomes
31:49the, the, the rule, not the exception that, that became very apparent as I read her book.
31:55I'm like, she's right about that. And I hear you saying basically the same thing.
31:58And, and the leader still stays the leader when they say, here's what we're going to do.
32:03I want to hear from everybody. Let's give everybody a chance to say what needs to get said.
32:08And then everybody does. As long as that leader is, I hate to use the word controlling the meeting
32:15and it's, and it is, it is yes, facilitating. It's, it's more than that. It's making sure that
32:21we are using our collective experience, our collective brains to analyze. So slowing down
32:29the process, getting all those ideas on the table and then, and then standing back and looking at them
32:34and saying, okay, well, what's going to work here? You know, this is a different context.
32:38This is a new situation. What should we do here? You know, with all these different ideas that we've
32:44just come up with. So the, the leader doesn't have to be the one making all those, well, you know,
32:51hopefully everyone can agree on, on a final decision and it is, you know, the leader's ultimate
32:56responsibility to make sure that, that they own the decision. Nevertheless, getting all the ideas out
33:02on the table, that's a leader's responsibility to make sure that everyone's comfortable with
33:07sharing everything.
33:08I wish I could remember the speaker who did this, because I would totally give him credit,
33:11but there was a speaker that did an event and he was talking about this very thing. He talked
33:16about the term he called it was collective genius. And I think the way he did it, I guess Mensa
33:22is the
33:22society of, I think you got to be the top 1% intelligence or something like that to get into
33:26this group and you have to take IQ tests to get in or whatever. Well, anyway, I might be butchering
33:31this a
33:31little bit, but I'll get the main point across. What he did was he gave people an IQ test and
33:35said,
33:36Hey, you got this much time go. And then saw how they did as individuals. And of course it was
33:41leaders and smart people in the room. So yeah, I did pretty well. But then he said, okay, now we're
33:45going to try section two. This time, one, two, three, four, five, you're a team. One, two, three,
33:49four, five, you're a team. One, two, three, four, five, you're a team. And guess what? He found out
33:53that every single team was significantly smarter. They got more answers. They got more work completed,
33:59more right answers in the smartest person in the room. So there's a way to really bring to life the
34:04value of collective genius that the power, the intellectual horsepower of a team, all of those
34:11teams was greater than any one individual in a room of smart people. Very, very interesting to me.
34:17So I know you talk a lot about taking initiative and raising your hand. Can you maybe share one or
34:23two moments from your own career when volunteering for something changed the direction of your career
34:28in a way that you couldn't have predicted? Well, your question is based on our earlier conversation
34:32when I told you kind of a lengthy story about how me taking initiative, raising my hand, led to
34:39me becoming a CEO or to say me raising my hand when I was 16 years old. I've learned at
34:46that age
34:47the importance of stepping forward, volunteering, taking responsibility. And what I've ultimately found,
34:53and I think that this is the punchline, and I mentioned this at the top, you know, based on
34:58your question, that leaders choose to lead. It's not, you cannot sit around in your career and wait
35:06for somebody to just tap you with a magic wand and say, oh, you're ready for the next level. And,
35:11or you're ready to be the CEO. You're the one in charge of your career. And you have to be
35:16the one
35:16to say, I want that next level. If you don't do that, then you're not taking responsibility. So you need
35:22to
35:23take that responsibility. So do you have any insights about when to know when someone might
35:27be ready for more responsibility, whether they recognize it or not? Well, as a, as a boss, I felt
35:33the important part of my job was to identify behaviors in, in my staff that I could point out
35:41to them as leadership behaviors and to let them know that that's what leaders do. And I would do
35:48that regularly. When I saw one of my staff people doing anything afterwards, I would take him aside
35:54and I say, what you did in that meeting, that's what leaders do. I appreciate what you did, do more
36:00of that. And, and I would do that on a regular basis with everyone to help them improve. I would
36:08offer
36:09them training opportunities to go to conferences, travel, network, whatever it might be. And with that
36:16idea in mind, constantly giving them feedback on here's what leaders do. And of course there were
36:23opportunities, there were times when people did, you know, had negative behaviors and I would talk
36:29to them about doing less of that and sometimes acceptable. Yeah. And how to turn that around
36:35to doing something positive, something more leadership focused. So that, that was, I felt as a
36:43responsibility of mine. It's not that I had, I didn't really have a mentor that did that to me,
36:49but I found that when I did that, it really cemented our relationship. So people wanted to do
36:56better. Because that's, that's an important point for what people, for people who are listening,
37:00what I hear you talking about is correction is care. I didn't want to gloss over that because
37:04there's a lot of people that if someone's doing things they're not supposed to, won't have that
37:08important conversation because they want to be liked by everybody, or they think it's going to
37:13mess with the mojo of the group. And they think they're adults, they'll just handle it themselves
37:16and they don't address it. And those little problems become much bigger problems if left
37:22unaddressed. So I didn't want to gloss over what you said there. You said, Hey, if I saw someone doing
37:26things they weren't supposed to, you didn't hesitate to have those conversations, but I'm willing to bet,
37:32you can tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm willing to bet that you presented that as correction as care.
37:36I can, I'm only telling you this because I care about you. I care about this organization.
37:40Here's what I saw. Here's what I wish I would have seen and what we need to do moving forward.
37:45And here's again, why it's important for your person, for you personally, and for us as an
37:51organization to, to handle things like that in the future differently and better. So then it's,
37:56it's purpose, it's a purposeful conversation, not a punitive one.
38:00Yes. Yeah, exactly. I can give you a really quick example. I had my director of IT in
38:06this was somebody that was a director when I came into a CEO position, I found was a person of
38:12very
38:12few words. They just didn't talk a lot. And early on, we would have meetings that covered a variety
38:20of topics. And when it came to, to IT, which was a component of the solution, I said, you know,
38:26Sarah, what do you think are the next steps for IT to support this process? And Sarah would say,
38:33I don't know. And I said, well, you know, you, you're, you're hearing what we're talking about.
38:38There's, you know, that there's some element in there for IT. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Any, any ideas,
38:43any feel? Nope. I don't know. So I went to Sarah separately, privately, and I said, you know,
38:50what's going on when, in these kinds of situations where, where you're not participating. And she said,
38:58well, she didn't say this, she didn't just come out and say it, but this is what happened in the
39:03course of the conversation. Ultimately, she admitted that she didn't want to speak up off
39:08the top of her head because she thought she would sound dumb. So it was something just ingrained in
39:16her, even though she was following the conversation, even though she was thinking about what needed to
39:21get done. She could have just said what was in her notes right there on the page while she was
39:26in the meeting. And I said, well, what would help? What would it, if you knew this topic was going
39:32to
39:32come up in the meeting, would that help you prepare better for the meeting? And she said, yeah, that
39:38would do it. If I could prepare in advance, not a script, but at least know that this is coming
39:43up
39:43and I can give thought to some steps in advance, then I would participate. So before we would have a
39:49meeting, I would look and see where IT could be involved. And I would talk to Sarah in advance
39:56and I'd say, I think on items three and five, this is where there's an IT component. Give some thought
40:03while we're having a conversation of just a couple of basic steps. We're not looking for the whole
40:08work plan, just a few ideas. And with that, she was fine. And then after doing that a couple of
40:15times,
40:15I never had to tell her again because she had the experience and built the confidence to be able to
40:21do it on the fly. And people are always appreciative just hearing it. Still going in with that correction
40:27is care is just tell me what's happening in your world. And then saying, aha, okay. Some people are
40:34less verbose than others and that's okay. Let's talk about how to prepare for those moments. And then we
40:41did and she was okay. Well, I know my parents listen to this podcast from time to time and my
40:47mom would
40:48argue that I'm not a good listener, but I'm going to prove her wrong right here because what I see
40:52is a
40:52pattern of what you talked about earlier. Early in our conversation, we were talking about how you were
40:59proactive when you were reaching out to the utilities like, hey, these are the things that can possibly
41:03happen and these are the things you need to prepare for. You're the numbers, you're the things. And now what
41:08you're talking about is the practical application of that in a business sense with the team that you
41:13lead in business, just like you did with utilities ahead of the hurricanes. Instead of, hey, instead of a
41:21hurricane is coming, hey, we're going to have a meeting coming and you're in charge of IT. Here's what needs
41:26to
41:26happen ahead of time. Here's what I need to be prepared for you so you're not surprised and you're prepared.
41:30Like your consistency was not lost on me. I got it.
41:33Yeah, that's exactly right. Yes, that's exactly right.
41:36Mom or dad listening, I actually do pay close attention and I do listen, but anyhow.
41:41So do you want to go back to that question about raising your hand?
41:44Yes.
41:45Tell that quick story. So in a nutshell, when I was 16, I was a hockey player. I grew up
41:51in Chicago. I went
41:53to camp. I went to hockey camp in the summer. And as part of the camp, we had somebody visit
42:00us who
42:00was a hockey referee. And who knew that there were rules in hockey? I was a player. I didn't
42:05know there were rules. I just saw you got out there and you just smashed into each other and
42:09tried to put the puck in the net. But I learned there were a few rules. But he said, if
42:14you want
42:14to come back to Chicago and have more ice time and be involved in the sport that you love and
42:21get paid
42:22to do it, then contact me. And I did. And I became a hockey official. And immediately they put me
42:29in
42:29games with lots of little kids. And it was fun. I was learning a lot. And at the end of
42:34my rookie
42:34year, I got assigned a really big game, an important game. And the league was called, it's
42:41not going to sound big, but it really is big. It's called juniors. And juniors is the step just below
42:47the NHL. So it's sort of a college level. And there's a whole league of junior teams that play
42:54all around the country. And I got assigned this game to be a linesman. You know, like in soccer,
43:00you have the referee in the middle of the field and the linesman hold the flags on the side,
43:03you know, just calling the offsides. Same thing in hockey. So I didn't have the full responsibility.
43:08And I went to the rink and I walked in the locker room for the referees. And there were two
43:13other
43:14people that were sitting there that were linesmen just like me. I knew them. And I knew that they were
43:19not assigned to be the referee. And I said, well, which one of you is going to be the referee
43:23today?
43:23And they said, oh, not me. And I said, well, I guess I'll get dressed. But when the referee comes,
43:29I, you know, I'll take off my gear. And the referee never came. And about 15 minutes before the game,
43:35the official scorekeeper came in the room and said, okay, who's the referee today? And I looked
43:39at the other guys and they were like, and I said, I am. And I raised my hand. And he
43:43said, good,
43:44this is an important game. Both these teams are vying for the number one spot. You need to call a
43:48tight
43:49game. I said, okay, we'll do. So I refereed that game and it went really well. I could go into
43:56some
43:56fun details where I was tested. But bottom line is that, you know, I sort of stepped up in the
44:03moment. I didn't feel confident as I was doing it. I felt like, crap, I just hope that these 2
44:11,000 fans
44:11here don't realize that there's a 16-year-old that's refereeing their, you know, their high-level
44:17hockey game. Nevertheless, I got through it. And the next day, I got a call from the referee-in-chief
44:22who said, Barry, I am so sorry that you did that game. You know, you weren't supposed to be the
44:29referee, but I heard you did a really good job. Would you like more opportunities to do that? And I
44:35said,
44:35well, I would, except I need some more training. I need some more mentoring, whatever it is. You know,
44:41I just can't do this tomorrow again. And he said, oh, yeah, yeah, we'll do that. I just need to
44:46know
44:46if you want to do it. And I said, yeah, I would like to. And then the next year, or
44:51the next two
44:52years, I got more mentoring, more training, and more opportunities. And then after two years, they
44:57recommended me to go to NHL referee training camp, which was in Ontario. And I found that I was, you
45:04know, I, you know, it's only a small little rule book. And you just, there's only so much you got
45:09to
45:09know. Well, but then there's what happens in real life. And I did that for three years. I found that
45:14I was in the minor leagues. I did a few NHL games. But I found that it was, you know,
45:19it was a lot of
45:19driving time. There was no Sirius XM, no, no iTunes, a lot of alone time. And, and decided I was
45:28getting a
45:28lot of pressure from my family. I decided they wanted me to go to college. So I did that. But
45:34I've still
45:34stayed a referee for all these years. And I, I've still referee that level today. Well, not the NHL,
45:40but, you know, the, the college level. And, and I still play still. But, but fast forward out of
45:47college, you know, my first, my first job, we're at an all hands meeting, you know, the, the, the CEO,
45:54the VPs are all giving an update on what's going on in the organization. And then at the end,
45:59the HR director stands up and says, Hey, I want to talk to you about the holiday party. And does
46:04a
46:04little bit of that and says, I need people to volunteer for the holiday party planning committee
46:08dead silence. Now the HR director was a friend of mine because we were two doors down from each
46:14other. And we used to always chat throughout the day. And my friend Arsenia was, you know,
46:19nobody was volunteering. So after that five seconds, I raised my hand and I said, I'll be part of the
46:25committee. And she said, Oh, Barry, Barry will be part of the committee. And then a couple other people
46:29joined in and we had our committee. Well, it turned out the CEO came to all of our planning
46:34meetings and was just one of the gang brainstormed. And, you know, he loved the holiday party because
46:40he saw it as a, as a team building event. And we put on a great holiday party. And then
46:45like the coach of Sacramento state. Well, exactly. Yes, it was. Yeah. Yeah.
46:51See, got it. Got to tell your mom, mom. I brought my game today, Barry. So, so then in January,
47:00the CEO stops by my office one day and I think, Oh, what's going on? He said, Barry, can I
47:05talk to
47:05you? Crap. So he sits down. Yeah. So he, he, and he said he liked how I participated on the
47:15holiday
47:15party planning committee. And he wanted to give me a bigger job to go to our national conference.
47:22And with our big high dollar speakers, I think that year we had hired Colin Powell,
47:29general Colin Powell to speak. He wanted me to ask the first question because he found that even in a
47:34room of 2000 people, no one would ask the first question because there were so many people,
47:38everybody was afraid. So he said, would you ask the first question? And I said, sure. Now I had other
47:43responsibilities there, but that was my big one. And, and I did that. And, and then that got the
47:49questions flowing. And I did that every year for five years. And after doing it for five years,
47:54a group of utilities from Florida pulled me aside afterwards and said, would you consider coming to
48:00Florida and leading our association? Because we need somebody who will stand up and talk to legislators
48:06and regulators and all kinds of important people and governors and so on. And you seem like the kind of
48:12person who are comfortable doing that. And, you know, it was a learned experience to stand up in
48:17front of those 2000 people and ask that question. But, but even still, that was something that I was
48:23able to do. I learned how to do that. And then I had to do that in that job, you
48:27know, stand up and
48:28take responsibility for a variety of things. And then that job led to my California job. So the point of
48:34that story is that taking responsibility, raising my hand, volunteering was the thing that got me
48:41my CEO jobs. It got me higher and higher level jobs and responsibilities and, and all the things
48:48that go along with it. And it wouldn't have happened if in that moment when I was 16, if I
48:54wasn't, you
48:55know, asked, you know, who wants to be in charge for this game? And that's where I learned that
49:00experience and then did that throughout my life. And I think for, for listeners, the lesson is when
49:07there's an opportunity, you, you might not be ready. Try it anyway. You never know. I mean, what's the
49:13worst that could happen? You know?
49:15One of my favorite quote is down with what you're talking about. It's fortune favors the bold.
49:19Fortune favors the bold. Yeah. Now, again, sometimes the bold, you know, get gored by the
49:25bull, you know?
49:26Sometimes, but sometimes you're volunteering at a, to be a referee at a hockey game. And next thing you know,
49:32you're being offered a CEO job. That's right. So Barry, if, first of all, thank you for sharing your
49:39time, your wisdom, your life experience and your perspectives. I hope that everyone listening and
49:44watching enjoyed it as much as I have. If people want to know more about you, the work you do,
49:48your
49:48book, what are the best ways for them to connect?
49:50My website is BarryMoline.com. So pretty straightforward. And my email address is Barry at
49:58BarryMoline.com. And let me point folks to a particular place on my website. I've, I've curated
50:06a list of 30 workplace appropriate icebreakers. So these are things that your listeners can, can go
50:13to immediately and then use them for their next meeting. Ideas where people can just take out
50:20their phone and Google dad jokes. And, and we're going to go around the room and everybody tell a dad
50:26joke and it gets people in a good mood. And then you're ready to, to get into the meeting. But
50:32ideas like that, where, where it inspires people to want to be together. And it's at BarryMoline.com
50:39slash resources. So there's a place on the page just as that has those resources. And you can,
50:46you can see those. It's a great way to get started doing icebreakers before meetings and,
50:52and do that, you know, connection before content. You want to connect with people first before you
50:57get into the heavy stuff in the meeting. And your book is available on Amazon?
51:01Book is on Amazon. It's connect. It's probably best to write connect Barry Moline,
51:07but it's connect how to quickly collaborate for success in business and life.
51:11Barry, thanks so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure.
51:14Thank you, Mason. I've really enjoyed the conversation.

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