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00:22good morning I hope you had a good night rest are you enjoying your
00:33stay in Paris we wake up wake up make a little bit of noise so we are I'm going
00:46to make an introduction that I really like because I'm speaking about somebody
00:52that not only I like but they believe he's a great entrepreneurs and it's
00:59important what is doing currently and as you know we are living through a strange
01:07and exciting moment more of our life are moving online and this happening more than
01:16ever before and now AI is accelerating all of it I have known Pascal Gauthier for a
01:25few years now and he's a very singular thinker asking unusual question about
01:32our future and the serial entrepreneur questions like who actually control our
01:40digital future and this is something which is extremely important who owns my
01:46data do I own my identity online what does digital trust actually mean who can I
01:56trust in the age of AI you can certainly trust Pascal and you will see so these
02:04are not abstract or easy question and few people have thought harder about this than
02:11our next guest he's a passionate advocate for ownership security and putting people back in the driver's
02:20seat so please a huge round of applause for Melissa Bell from CNN and Pascal Gauthier from Ledger
02:40from Wendy
02:51hi everyone so happy to be here for this fireside chat with Pascal Gauthier I'm sure you've all heard of
02:58at this stage
02:59The last time we were here, Pascal, you asked the crowd,
03:02we were on this stage last year,
03:03who here uses AI, who here uses crypto,
03:06everyone's hand shot up.
03:07And the point you were making is that it's going so fast
03:10and there is so much now that is already in the hands
03:14of the digital world for everybody, right?
03:16And it's happening exponentially.
03:17And I guess the first thing I want to ask you is how in the end,
03:20and I think this speaks to a fear we probably all have,
03:23how do we stop the machines taking over?
03:25How do you keep the human inside that exponential growth
03:28of our digital life?
03:31Yeah, I mean, first, it's great to be here again.
03:34Thank you, Mr. Levi, for such a kind introduction.
03:37And it feels amazing that we're just having a bar conversation,
03:41but on Vive Tech stage.
03:43And it's, in fact, the continuity of our discussion
03:46that we had last year.
03:51And it's interesting what's happening
03:53because everybody understands instinctively what's happening.
03:57You know, technically, in the detail of the technicity,
04:01nobody understands the internet, nobody understands,
04:04I don't understand much, but we know what's happening
04:07and we know what's impacting our lives right now.
04:10And, you know, scams, frauds, like, you know,
04:15we're being hacked more and more,
04:17and we're being impersonated more and more.
04:21And the real question in digital, finally,
04:24like digital is not, you know, let's say from 2000, right?
04:27Like, so it's only 26 years.
04:29And it has all progressed at a rapid pace.
04:32And we all became digital being,
04:35but up until now, we were digital being
04:38within a system that controls us.
04:41You belong to Google, you belong to Apple, etc., etc.
04:43But there's no you.
04:45You don't have, there's you physically,
04:48but there's no you digitally.
04:51Like, how do you prove what you own?
04:53And Bitcoin was the invention of digital private property.
04:57Now you can own something.
04:58So you can prove that you own something
05:01because you can move Bitcoin by a cryptographic signature
05:04from address A to address B.
05:10And in the world that we're in now,
05:13like, you can move your Bitcoin,
05:15but how do you prove you're you?
05:16And we all know the dangers of AI as an attacker,
05:23as a vector of attack,
05:24and AI impersonation.
05:27If you and I have a call on Zoom next week,
05:28you're not really sure it's me.
05:30It could be...
05:30I can see you, but it may not be you.
05:32It may not be you.
05:33So what you see on your screen of your computer or phone
05:38was never to be trusted,
05:39but now, for sure, cannot be trusted.
05:43And security went from...
05:44Before, if security was good enough, it was fine.
05:49Because security was always designed by obscurity.
05:51So I don't show you what I do,
05:53so as an attacker, it's difficult to figure it out.
05:56And so good enough security was good enough
05:59in the sense that maybe there are some cracks in my security,
06:01but because they're very hard to find,
06:03you will never find them.
06:04All of this has gone out of the window
06:06at the beginning of this year,
06:08because now hackers using AI
06:12can have a thousand agents
06:14taking you at the same time,
06:16lightning speed,
06:17find every vulnerability,
06:19and crack your security in a blitz.
06:25So that's the world that we live in.
06:27And, you know, there's been...
06:28It's a bit like there's been a nuclear explosion,
06:31but underground, you know?
06:33So nobody...
06:34Everybody on the surface feel that it's a bit vibrating.
06:36Like, we all feel that it's happening,
06:38but we don't see the full blast.
06:39But actually,
06:41there is a real blast going on right now,
06:43and if you look at all statistics,
06:45hackers right now are winning.
06:48And so in this world
06:52where you still don't really own who is you,
06:55you're being attacked by AI,
06:57you're being impersonated by AI.
06:58Like, we need to design something and a solution
07:00so humans can stay in the loop,
07:02humans can stay in control,
07:03and humans can prove who they are.
07:06Humans can prove that they're in control,
07:08humans can prove that they're humans.
07:10That's right.
07:11Like, you can...
07:11Like, intellectually,
07:12you can understand crypto assets.
07:15You have assets you need to protect.
07:16But now it's making this intellectual leap
07:19towards needing to protect your identity.
07:22And I think maybe we're a bit slow to doing it,
07:24but that's how it functions.
07:26No, actually, we're not...
07:27I mean, funny enough,
07:29we're not slow to do it
07:31because it's happening.
07:32Right now, what's scary is, you know,
07:34AI as a tool for attacker
07:38is already deployed at scale.
07:40And it's the first time
07:41that attack has an advantage on defense
07:44because usually, before,
07:46with security by obscurity,
07:47the cost of attack was high,
07:50time of attack was long,
07:51so, you know, defense had more time to build
07:53and attackers needed to spend more money to attack.
07:56Now with AI,
07:57the attack cost went down to zero
08:00and the speed of attack is lightning fast,
08:03so attack has a bit of an advantage
08:05because defense sometimes need a bit longer
08:07to prepare, you know, companies.
08:09A hacker in his garage, you know,
08:11is more agile than, you know,
08:15a Fortune 500 company.
08:17And actually, you know,
08:20this is no longer a hacker in his garage.
08:21Like, you know,
08:22hackers are organizations that are,
08:23you know,
08:24a very big organization,
08:25like thousands of people,
08:26whose only job is to hack.
08:27So, you know,
08:28we're facing, actually,
08:30you know,
08:31it's a cyber war
08:33that is going on right now
08:35because hackers can be private groups,
08:38but there can also be rogue states.
08:40Like, you know,
08:41North Korea's specialty
08:42is to hack
08:43every cryptocurrency company in the world.
08:46Wow.
08:46And it happens at individual level as well,
08:48so we need to protect ourselves as individuals.
08:50Tell me a little bit about,
08:52you've said, Pascal,
08:53it's not just security,
08:54it's architecture, right?
08:55Like, the hardware of it.
08:57Tell us about that.
08:59You, in the end,
09:00to protect yourself digitally,
09:02it comes down or back to hardware.
09:05Yeah.
09:05So, because of AI,
09:09everything that is in software
09:12is close to impossible to protect.
09:15So, you cannot protect secrets
09:18with digital secrets
09:20with software.
09:22And so, hardware actually
09:24is a French invention,
09:26or secure hardware
09:27is a French invention.
09:27Chip and pin is a French invention.
09:29It was actually a friend
09:29of Mr. Levy who invented it.
09:35And it's interesting
09:37how security in the digital world works
09:39because it's similar
09:40to the security in the physical world.
09:42So, in the physical world,
09:43if you want to protect gold,
09:44you do Fort Knox.
09:46And actually, interestingly,
09:48you put gold in Fort Knox
09:50and nothing else.
09:51You don't put a nightclub
09:52at the rooftop of Fort Knox.
09:53You don't put a daycare center.
09:55You don't put a shopping mall
09:56because you want to eliminate
09:59any vector of attack.
10:01So, you do two buildings.
10:03You do a building for entertainment
10:04and you do a building for security.
10:07And so, online is exactly the same.
10:09And if you look at the chip and pin
10:10or secure element,
10:11and if you look at it
10:12with a microscope,
10:12it looks like a castle.
10:14It looks like a city.
10:15And hardware protects
10:17against software attacks.
10:18Like a fortress.
10:20Like a fortress.
10:23And so,
10:24and really,
10:25this is what's happening now.
10:26Like, the only way to,
10:27you know,
10:28sort of save yourself
10:29is secure hardware.
10:31And for now,
10:33and for also
10:34quantum computer
10:35that is coming.
10:37So, quantum computer
10:38is coming in,
10:38you know,
10:39five to ten years,
10:40but you need to prepare now.
10:42Okay,
10:42the preparation is now
10:43because,
10:44you know,
10:44what is it going to change?
10:47Well,
10:49quantum computer
10:49is going to accelerate everything.
10:51the attacks will be even faster.
10:53It will accelerate.
10:54So,
10:55the nightmare
10:56is not here.
10:57We need another ten years
10:59for the full nightmare.
11:00But actually,
11:00it's not a nightmare
11:01because the solution
11:02to protect already exists.
11:04So,
11:05what,
11:07what I'm saying
11:08is like,
11:08people,
11:09whether it's companies
11:10or individuals,
11:11they need to think
11:12about these issues.
11:12because it's a bit
11:13like you're saying,
11:15and why they need
11:16to think about these issues?
11:17Because we come from
11:18a world where we told you,
11:19don't worry about it
11:20because Google has you
11:21or Apple is protecting you.
11:23And you never had
11:24to think about this.
11:25But now you kind of do
11:26because Apple and Google
11:28are no longer
11:28protecting you for sure.
11:30You know,
11:30in a sense,
11:31your phone cannot be trusted,
11:32your computer cannot be trusted.
11:34So,
11:35you have to think
11:35of your insecurity.
11:37Governments have to think
11:38about their citizen security
11:39because,
11:40you know,
11:40we're being hacked
11:41left and right
11:42of data or this
11:42and that and the other.
11:43And so,
11:44how do you protect
11:44the citizens going forward?
11:46And so,
11:46it's something
11:47that we collectively
11:49need to really think about
11:50and that individuals
11:52need to think about
11:53for themselves
11:54because it's as if
11:56your house was
11:57in a neighborhood
11:57and your neighborhood
11:58was fine,
11:59but suddenly,
11:59it became
12:01a horrible neighborhood
12:02with all the criminals
12:03that are around your house.
12:05So,
12:05you have to figure out
12:06how to protect your house,
12:07you know,
12:08to put an armed door,
12:10you know,
12:10an alarm,
12:11et cetera,
12:11et cetera.
12:11So,
12:11it's the same thing
12:12that is happening online
12:14except that,
12:14you know,
12:15physical security
12:16has always been something
12:17that is in us.
12:17Like,
12:17we understand physical security.
12:19Digital security is new
12:21and because we were protected
12:23before without us
12:25having to do anything,
12:26we have to sort of
12:27forget what we think we know
12:28and learn what's coming.
12:31And you don't need
12:32to learn the technology,
12:33but you need to learn,
12:34you know,
12:35the dangers
12:35and the consequences
12:36and how to protect yourself
12:37and there's already
12:38a lot of stuff out there.
12:40Like,
12:40you know,
12:40the ledger exists
12:40but there are a lot
12:41of companies
12:41that are working
12:42on this topic,
12:43fortunately.
12:44But it's,
12:45I think it's beyond
12:46the comprehension
12:46of most people.
12:47Like,
12:47it's not something
12:48people think about
12:49every day.
12:50How do you,
12:51who should be
12:52raising awareness
12:52about that?
12:53Like,
12:53should governments
12:53be doing more
12:54or like...
12:55No,
12:55so first of all,
12:56I don't think
12:56that's true.
12:57Like,
12:57you know,
12:57people think about it
12:58every day
12:58because people
12:59are getting hacked
12:59every day.
12:59And they understand.
13:00Yeah,
13:00they understand.
13:01Like,
13:01who has been hacked
13:02before online?
13:07Half of you are lying
13:08but we've all been
13:09hacked online.
13:09You just don't know it.
13:12You know,
13:13it's like,
13:14or who,
13:15okay,
13:15so let's do it
13:16another way.
13:17Who has been,
13:18has been a victim
13:20of an attempted hack?
13:21You've not been hacked
13:22but some...
13:23Yeah.
13:24Okay,
13:24everybody.
13:25Well,
13:26so this is the reality.
13:27So everybody knows,
13:28like,
13:28you know,
13:28everyone is happening,
13:29et cetera.
13:29What people usually
13:30don't know is like,
13:31okay,
13:31how do I protect
13:32what to do about it,
13:33et cetera.
13:33And this is why
13:33we have the talks here
13:34to say,
13:36to explain what's
13:36happening,
13:37et cetera.
13:37And again,
13:38it's the nuclear bomb,
13:39you know,
13:39so it's vibrating.
13:41You see people
13:42trying to hack you
13:42more and more.
13:44And what you know
13:45and what I can tell you
13:46is like,
13:46if you think it's bad now,
13:48you know,
13:48think again
13:48because tomorrow
13:49is going to be worse.
13:50So we have some time
13:51for preparation
13:51but we need to think
13:52about it
13:54because once
13:54the nuclear blast
13:56is,
13:56you know,
13:57on ground level,
13:58then,
13:58you know,
13:59it's like everybody dies.
14:00And so there is
14:01a preparation now
14:02because when you do security,
14:05it's the hardest system
14:07to attack,
14:07there's going to be
14:08attack last.
14:10So your job
14:10is to protect yourself
14:11maximum
14:12and those that don't
14:13do the job
14:13will be the victims
14:14of the next attack,
14:15you know.
14:16So for those
14:17who do the job,
14:18there is a safe place
14:19to go to
14:20and it's your topic
14:21and also it's fascinating.
14:22I mean,
14:23you know,
14:23it's very interesting.
14:24The world of hacking
14:25is very interesting.
14:27Cyber war is very interesting.
14:29So it's worth
14:29spending time on it.
14:30Because in the end
14:31it's about trust,
14:32right?
14:32Like there's trust
14:33in the real world
14:34but then how
14:35that trust then exists
14:36in the digital world
14:37is a different game entirely.
14:39Yeah,
14:39but trust in the real world
14:40is because you see me,
14:41I see you,
14:41we can shake hands
14:42so, you know,
14:42that's very easy.
14:43But trust in digital world,
14:44as soon as you put
14:44two screens between us,
14:46well,
14:46now we don't know anymore.
14:47And even if I see you,
14:48et cetera,
14:49like, you know,
14:49all this doesn't matter anymore.
14:50So to trust each other
14:53in the digital world,
14:54the handshake
14:55that we could have
14:56is me,
14:57I signed with my ledger
14:58to prove that it's me
14:59and you do the same
15:00and so then
15:01we can have a conversation.
15:03What is the next thing,
15:05Pascal,
15:06that I suppose
15:07you and your industry,
15:08we as like just ordinary people,
15:10governments need to think about
15:11or to expect
15:13from what you're talking about?
15:14What's like the next thing?
15:16You were talking about quantum,
15:18for instance,
15:18computing,
15:19but what do we need
15:21to be looking out for?
15:22What do we need
15:22to be preparing for?
15:26We're already preparing.
15:27For example,
15:27the ANSI,
15:27which is reporting
15:31to I think
15:32the Minister of the Interior
15:33and they are the one
15:34like sort of troubleshooting
15:35and certifying
15:36like every new secure hardware
15:39that goes into the market
15:40is not certifying hardware
15:42that is not protected
15:46against quantum computer.
15:49Okay,
15:50so it's already happening.
15:52So the defense
15:52is already being built.
15:56So
15:57there is a danger,
15:58but we're not dead.
16:00It's okay.
16:02The war is happening,
16:03but we haven't lost the war
16:05and we will not lose the war
16:09because governments,
16:11private companies,
16:13you know,
16:14they're all raising
16:14to the challenge
16:15and there is a lot of money
16:17going into this
16:18to protect everybody.
16:22but it is
16:23a collective thinking
16:25and a collective awareness
16:26that needs to happen
16:27to understand
16:28the magnitude
16:28of what's happening
16:29and so collectively
16:31we can,
16:31you can work on that.
16:32And to understand
16:33that it's a war.
16:35Yeah,
16:35it's a war,
16:35but like see the,
16:37you know,
16:38mythos,
16:39no,
16:40where was it?
16:40Like fable five
16:41that the US government
16:42doesn't want
16:43entropy to sell to Europe.
16:45You know,
16:45I,
16:46when I was with you
16:47last year
16:48or maybe the year before,
16:48I said,
16:49you know,
16:49there are three technologies
16:50that go together
16:50is cryptography,
16:53quantum computer
16:54and AI.
16:56And these are
16:56sovereign technologies
16:57because these are
16:58the technologies
16:58with which you protect
16:59your citizens.
17:02These are the three technologies
17:03that you need
17:04to protect your citizens.
17:05They all go together.
17:06To protect your citizens
17:07and to protect your institutions
17:08and they all go together.
17:09They all go together
17:10because you can match
17:11them together,
17:12because they can attack
17:12each other,
17:13because they can accelerate,
17:14et cetera, et cetera.
17:15So there are three,
17:16the good news
17:17for France
17:18is we master
17:20the three technologies.
17:21We are one of the
17:22very rare countries
17:23on Earth,
17:24actually maybe
17:25the only one
17:26that master,
17:27no,
17:28not the only one,
17:28but cryptography,
17:29AI at scale,
17:31all of this at scale
17:31and quantum computer.
17:32So I was asked
17:35on the radio yesterday,
17:37you know,
17:37American companies
17:38are too big,
17:39so isn't it time
17:40to give up?
17:41Finally,
17:42it's a weird question.
17:44And so I said,
17:45yeah,
17:45we can go to bed
17:46and think about
17:48something else,
17:48but, you know,
17:49it doesn't mean
17:49that the house
17:50is not burning,
17:51so we might as well
17:52get up early in the morning
17:53and go to work.
17:54And also,
17:55but we have what we need
17:56to raise the challenge.
17:58But this kind of
18:00world of tomorrow
18:01that you're talking about,
18:02who should be in charge
18:04of creating it,
18:07protecting us,
18:08of creating it,
18:09actually?
18:10Governments,
18:10companies?
18:10Like,
18:11who should be in charge?
18:12That's a great question.
18:13And for me,
18:15it's public
18:15and private together.
18:16I think,
18:17me,
18:18I'm not a big fan
18:18of public
18:20in the sense
18:21that private businesses
18:24in an open market
18:25need to thrive
18:25and I want minimal
18:27intervention
18:27from the public.
18:29I just need good laws
18:30that allow me
18:30to build a business,
18:31but I don't need advice
18:33or I don't need anything.
18:35I can build my business
18:36on my own.
18:36When you talk
18:37about these kind of topics,
18:38it's a bit different
18:39because now you're talking
18:40about sovereignty.
18:41And so,
18:42and also,
18:43we might need a lot of money
18:44actually to build defense.
18:46And sometimes,
18:50it's very difficult
18:51in private markets
18:52to raise that kind of money
18:54because the business model
18:55is not necessarily
18:56in the next two years,
18:57but it's maybe three,
18:58four, five, etc.
18:59So the kind of money
18:59that you need to raise
19:02only makes sense
19:03if it's sovereign money.
19:05You know,
19:05capital that has more time,
19:06etc.
19:06and to protect
19:08sovereign interests.
19:09So you mean
19:10to be able to do it
19:11at scale?
19:11Yeah,
19:12to be able to do it
19:12at scale.
19:13And we always think,
19:14the US is the market,
19:17it's all private,
19:17etc.
19:18It's not true.
19:18In the US,
19:19they have DARPA,
19:20which is kind of their BPI.
19:22So when there is
19:23like a sovereign issue
19:24of something
19:25of a magnitude
19:26for infrastructures,
19:27etc.,
19:27they know how to
19:28make a public-private partnership.
19:32Because they've understood
19:33how strategic it is.
19:34Yes.
19:34And if you think about
19:35military equipment,
19:36same, etc., etc.
19:37So I think
19:38we're in that category.
19:40And the good news is
19:41Europe understands
19:42and public and...
19:44Actually,
19:44I don't think
19:45public and private in Europe
19:46has never worked better
19:47than now
19:48on this specific topic.
19:50Really?
19:51Really?
19:51Because everybody understands
19:52it's the only way,
19:53both for the private companies
19:54and for the government?
19:55Yes.
19:57And I've never seen it before.
19:58You know,
19:58I was in cryptocurrency,
19:59Bitcoin.
20:00I think also
20:00it's a sovereign issue,
20:01but nobody understood that.
20:03You know,
20:03I never got a call.
20:06But today,
20:07I got a call,
20:07you know.
20:08How so?
20:10When you say
20:10about crypto?
20:12If you think
20:13where Bitcoin is going,
20:15I've been in Bitcoin
20:15since 2014.
20:16So the bet was always
20:17like Bitcoin
20:18will be the new
20:18digital,
20:19digital gold
20:20and gold reserve,
20:21et cetera.
20:22And I think
20:22Bitcoin is on his way
20:23to do it.
20:23So I feel
20:24that government
20:24should treat
20:26with this
20:26as a,
20:27you know,
20:28sovereign issue,
20:29which is,
20:29by the way,
20:29what the US is doing.
20:31Okay?
20:32So maybe Trump is crazy,
20:33but sometimes
20:34he's right.
20:36And if you don't
20:37believe Bitcoin,
20:38you can believe
20:39Wall Street,
20:40you know,
20:41because Wall Street
20:41is also saying it.
20:43So the fact
20:43that Europe
20:44is not taking it,
20:45you know,
20:45head on,
20:46I mean,
20:46I think it's a mistake.
20:47But are they beginning
20:49to understand that?
20:50No.
20:51No.
20:53But it's okay.
20:54Now they understand
20:55the bigger problem.
20:56Is it an issue
20:56to do with Europe
20:57and the way it functions?
20:58Is it to,
20:59or just...
20:59Because Europe
21:00is very conservative.
21:01Like,
21:01there is a spirit,
21:02and it's not just the politics.
21:03It's, you know,
21:04every European.
21:04When you talk about
21:05new technology,
21:06like,
21:06I'm not sure.
21:07Talk back to me
21:08in 10 years.
21:08So when the market
21:09has happened,
21:10they're like,
21:10oh yeah,
21:10now I'm going to buy
21:11it from the Americans.
21:11Surely now there's
21:12been a wake-up.
21:12Surely we understand this now.
21:14Still not.
21:14No.
21:15The wake-up is on security.
21:16Security touches everybody,
21:18so for that,
21:18this is why I say it works,
21:19because everybody's concerned,
21:21public, private, etc.
21:22Citizens are concerned,
21:23so they want something.
21:25Okay.
21:26But when it comes to stuff
21:27that is,
21:28that seems less pressing,
21:30it's like,
21:30why do we care about Bitcoin?
21:32Wait 10 years,
21:33and I'll tell you why.
21:34But you don't know
21:35until it has happened.
21:36This,
21:37you know already
21:37that it's happening,
21:38and so you're scared,
21:39and so you want.
21:40Everybody's scared.
21:40If I talk to people,
21:42talk to people around you,
21:43you know,
21:44I was on France Info yesterday,
21:45and the radio anchor,
21:47it was very scared.
21:48It was like,
21:49oh my God,
21:49like you were all going to,
21:50you know,
21:50it's something that people feel.
21:52This is why I talk about
21:53nuclear vibration, etc.
21:55People are really scared,
21:56so when they're scared,
21:57they want to know
21:58and they want a solution.
21:59Bitcoin,
22:00they're not scared.
22:00They don't understand,
22:01and they say,
22:02well,
22:02I saw a report yesterday
22:04on TV
22:05where the guys
22:06were saying stuff
22:06that people were saying
22:07on Bitcoin
22:08that was stupid
22:09in 2015,
22:10but they still say it
22:11in 26.
22:12Well,
22:12it's crazy.
22:14But it's okay.
22:15It's like that.
22:16You know,
22:16innovation is,
22:19this is the difference.
22:20Innovation is something
22:21that troubles people
22:22because innovation
22:23tells them
22:24that everything
22:25that they believe
22:25was true before
22:26is wrong.
22:28And so people
22:28are very resisting
22:29to change
22:30because they're like,
22:30you cannot tell me
22:31that everything
22:32that I've learned
22:32is wrong.
22:33It's like,
22:33no,
22:33I'm not telling you this,
22:34but things change,
22:35and people resist change.
22:36And this,
22:37with the current technologies
22:38that we're talking about,
22:38like exponentially fast.
22:40Yeah,
22:40but for Bitcoin,
22:41typically it's like,
22:42forget fiat currency,
22:43Bitcoin is better.
22:44It's like,
22:44no,
22:44I don't want to believe that.
22:45I prefer the euro,
22:46et cetera.
22:46This is change.
22:48What I'm talking about
22:49in terms of security
22:49is not change.
22:50It's actually
22:52always been with us.
22:53If you ask people,
22:54would you prefer
22:55to be secure?
22:55They will say,
22:56yes,
22:56of course I prefer
22:57to be secure.
22:57And by the way,
22:58if you're a citizen
22:59and you're not secure
23:02and you cannot
23:04have a private life,
23:05you're not free.
23:07So it's the root
23:08of democracy
23:08that is challenged.
23:10This is why
23:11it's a very sensitive topic
23:13for everybody.
23:13This is why
23:14it's a public,
23:15private matter
23:15because we're talking
23:16about fundamental freedoms.
23:19Digital sovereignty,
23:21ownership of yourself.
23:22And it begs the question
23:26of the right democratic order.
23:29If you think about
23:30what's happening now,
23:32there is a big temptation
23:32to put state first,
23:35strong,
23:35protects everybody,
23:37citizen second,
23:38in a system
23:39they cannot escape of
23:40but because the state
23:41is here to protect you.
23:43This is very dangerous.
23:45This is Anakin Skywalker
23:47just before
23:47it becomes Darth Vader.
23:50Don't worry,
23:51we got you
23:53and it's for
23:54your own best interests.
23:55But the problem
23:55of this system
23:56is if you put
23:58the institution
23:59above the citizen
24:00then it creates
24:01weak citizen.
24:03Me and Ledger,
24:05we claim that
24:06the right order
24:06is citizen first,
24:08sovereign,
24:10that can make decisions
24:11and is responsible
24:12for its decision,
24:14that power the institution,
24:16that then rule
24:17the country.
24:19That's the right
24:19democratic order.
24:20And by the way,
24:21it's not me saying it,
24:22it's the Declaration
24:22of the Rights of the Citizens,
24:24it's the American Constitution,
24:27it's the Charte of the UN.
24:29So I'm not inventing something,
24:30I'm just reminding
24:31that actually democracy,
24:32citizen first.
24:33It's built on that idea
24:34but the way our institutions
24:35have been built
24:36is the other way.
24:37So it's revolutionary
24:39to suggest what you're suggesting.
24:40No, it's not this,
24:41it's like we've been
24:41tried by technology.
24:43We always go for convenience
24:44and technology
24:46was the way it was,
24:47et cetera.
24:47So finally,
24:48you find yourself
24:49in the wrong order,
24:52not necessarily
24:52because people are evil
24:54but because people
24:55lose sight
24:56of what the right order is
24:57and also there is no,
24:59there was no technology
25:00to reestablish
25:01the right order.
25:02What I'm saying
25:03is ledger has a technology
25:04to reestablish
25:05the right order.
25:06If you have on your ledger
25:07your money,
25:07your identity,
25:08et cetera,
25:08you know,
25:09all of this super safe,
25:10with redundancy,
25:11et cetera,
25:11and then you can vote,
25:13you can say yes,
25:14you can be a powerful citizen
25:17in a country,
25:18which doesn't mean
25:19that you're not responsible.
25:20This is not anarchy
25:20because people think
25:21it's libertarian.
25:22It's not.
25:23It's the normal democratic order.
25:25I go to vote.
25:26It's me.
25:27I've got my voice
25:28and I want my voice
25:29to be leading the country
25:31with the other citizens
25:33and we have rules
25:34in terms of democracy
25:35but we go first
25:36and we empower institutions.
25:39So it's not just business.
25:41It's not just security.
25:43It's actually
25:43of a fundamental importance
25:46for freedom and democracy.
25:48That's amazing.
25:50And of course,
25:51I suppose governments
25:53understand that.
25:55But...
25:56Well, sorry,
25:56my other question was this.
25:57You were talking earlier
25:58about the gap
25:58between how slow
26:00maybe Europeans
26:00have been to embrace
26:01or to innovate
26:02or to lead
26:04on these issues
26:05that require people like you
26:06to be thinking ahead
26:0720, 30 years
26:08going back the last few years.
26:10Surely the gap
26:10with the United States
26:11in these issues
26:13is spurring Europe
26:14to think more strategically
26:16and differently
26:17and in a more innovative
26:18and ambitious way.
26:19Have you seen that change?
26:22Yeah, I think it's happening now.
26:24I'm very hopeful
26:25and plus, you know,
26:26it's like business is war.
26:27So business is a combination
26:28of war and sports.
26:30So...
26:31And so the war is on.
26:32So...
26:33But I think, yeah,
26:34I mean, Europe is amazing.
26:37We have...
26:40We have very smart people.
26:41But usually,
26:42in Europe,
26:43the problem is
26:44that public and private
26:46don't work so well together
26:47because, I don't know,
26:47there's a function of public
26:50that doesn't touch
26:51the private
26:51for many reasons
26:53and so therefore
26:54that partnership
26:55slows things down.
26:56Like, if you think
26:56about China, for example,
26:57why it goes so fast?
26:58Because there's one guy
26:59that decides
26:59and they execute, you know?
27:03And in the US,
27:04they have a different approach
27:05which is, you know,
27:05they try to make...
27:08to change the law
27:09so difficult
27:10that in the end,
27:11you know,
27:11it's to the benefit
27:12of the private industries.
27:15Well, in Europe,
27:16we have a bit in the middle
27:17which is, you know,
27:18we have...
27:18The public is too strong
27:19and slows down the business.
27:23But now we're in a moment
27:24where public best interest
27:26is to let the private thrive
27:28on this topic
27:29and the good news
27:30is there are three technologies
27:31that could generate
27:33a lot of wealth
27:33for the future.
27:34So, I always ask the question
27:36or we miss the internet,
27:38we miss this,
27:38we miss that,
27:38we miss the other.
27:39This one,
27:40we are in a position
27:41not to miss it
27:42because we need
27:43to have our own technologies.
27:44When I was asked,
27:45like,
27:45is it a problem
27:46that Anthropic
27:47is not sending
27:48to Europe Fable 5?
27:50I think it's a blessing
27:51in disguise.
27:52For Europe?
27:53Yeah,
27:53because we have
27:54to build our own.
27:55Can that gap be bridged?
27:57Yeah.
27:58Well,
27:58if they're not sending it
27:59to you,
27:59you have to build it anyways.
28:01And then it's a question
28:02of competition.
28:04But if you think
28:05about competition in Europe,
28:06like tech,
28:06for example,
28:08army
28:09and the material.
28:12France is
28:13top of the world.
28:15The Rafale
28:15is better than the F-35.
28:17So,
28:17we know
28:18how to win
28:18and to develop
28:19technology at scale
28:20and to kick ass.
28:22It's important
28:23to say these things
28:24and sometimes
28:24the French
28:25don't know
28:26what they have
28:27or are.
28:29Tell me.
28:29We bash ourselves.
28:30The French bashing
28:31is the French bashing
28:32themselves first.
28:33We don't have to.
28:34On the question of,
28:36or just on the question of,
28:37these are private companies,
28:40not just yours,
28:40all of the American giants
28:42that are building
28:42our world, right?
28:43Like,
28:44the world that you're discussing,
28:45that we're discussing,
28:46the AI,
28:47everything that's coming,
28:48it's a world
28:49that the architecture
28:49of which is being built
28:50by private companies
28:51who are interested,
28:53I suppose,
28:53in making money.
28:54And that's a worry
28:55for people.
28:56Should it be a worry
28:56for people?
28:57That this world
28:59in which we are
29:00is being built
29:01by a few people
29:02trying to make money.
29:03Like,
29:03no one's really thinking
29:05about it
29:05in a way
29:06that is not profit-driven.
29:07No, no.
29:07Making money is great.
29:08I mean,
29:09you know,
29:09how do you defend people
29:10if you,
29:12like,
29:12at Ledger,
29:12we make money.
29:13We are not a,
29:14we are a for-profit
29:15organization,
29:16okay?
29:17And the reason
29:17why I need to make
29:18a lot of money
29:19and I need to have
29:20good margins
29:21and, you know,
29:21good results,
29:22et cetera,
29:22is because
29:23this is not a war
29:24for the next six months.
29:26This is a forever war.
29:28And so,
29:28I need to finance
29:29my company forever
29:32and I need to be
29:33in the best cash position
29:34to be innovative,
29:36to have new products
29:36and to take them
29:37to market.
29:39You know,
29:40I am not someone,
29:41people that have made money
29:42usually say this,
29:43I am not someone
29:44that is driven by money.
29:45No.
29:47Okay?
29:48And,
29:49but the point
29:50I'm trying to make,
29:51like,
29:51Elon Musk is not driven
29:52by money.
29:53He's the first
29:53fucking trillion,
29:54et cetera.
29:55He's driven by innovation,
29:56doing shit,
29:56et cetera.
29:57Think what you want
29:58of Elon Musk,
29:59but he's good.
30:00And what he wants
30:01is to achieve things.
30:02And anyway,
30:03you cannot do anything
30:04with the kind of money
30:05that he has.
30:05Like,
30:05you know,
30:06it's too much to spend,
30:07et cetera.
30:07It doesn't change your life.
30:08Once you reach,
30:08like,
30:08a certain amount of money,
30:12it's what you do
30:12with money
30:13and if you're responsible.
30:15So making money
30:15is good
30:16because it puts you
30:17in a responsibility
30:18to do things.
30:19I feel a responsibility
30:20to do what I do.
30:22Like,
30:22I don't do what I do
30:23to be on stage
30:24at Vivatech.
30:24I have to be on stage
30:25at Vivatech
30:26to share the message
30:27for people to know.
30:28But if it's not me,
30:29it's going to be another CEO
30:30and it's going to be
30:31the same message.
30:32Yes,
30:33but there was this big piece
30:34about Sam Altman,
30:35right?
30:35Like,
30:36can this man be trusted
30:37with the future of AI?
30:38There is a question
30:39of the power
30:39that is in the hands
30:40of these people.
30:42because,
30:42okay,
30:43but Sam Altman
30:43is a very controversial figure
30:44also,
30:45you know,
30:45like in terms of,
30:47he can be,
30:49you could make an argument
30:50on the ethics
30:52of Sam Altman.
30:53so I would argue
30:55that yes,
30:56if Pascal Gauthier
30:57was terrible
30:57and every time
30:58you read the news
30:59I do something crazy
31:00and my ethics
31:01It hasn't happened,
31:02by the way.
31:02and my ethics
31:03and moral law,
31:04yes,
31:04you shouldn't trust me
31:05and I shouldn't be running
31:06a company like Ledger.
31:08But it's more
31:10the individual.
31:11And in the end,
31:14in a society,
31:15there is a form
31:16of trust
31:17that you have to have.
31:20I think sometimes
31:22we forget this.
31:23People are very unhappy
31:27with the politics,
31:28you know,
31:29the politics this,
31:30politics that,
31:30et cetera.
31:32Whether I'm happy
31:33or not,
31:33it doesn't matter
31:34because actually
31:35there is a system.
31:36We voted for them.
31:37I actually don't want
31:37their job.
31:38It's a horrible job.
31:39So I actually thank them
31:40for doing the job
31:41that they do.
31:42And people make mistakes
31:43but what I always ask
31:46and wonder,
31:47like,
31:47where is their heart
31:48and what is their intention?
31:51If your heart
31:51is in the right place,
31:52if the intention is good,
31:54okay,
31:54you can fail.
31:56You suck
31:56but you're still
31:58a good human being.
31:59And so we always need
32:00to remind this.
32:02So people ask me,
32:03you know,
32:03what do you think
32:03about the situation in Iran?
32:05I say,
32:05I'm the CEO of Ledger.
32:06I don't have anything
32:07to say about that situation.
32:09And if you want
32:09to know what I think,
32:11listen to my president.
32:12Whatever he says
32:13is what I think
32:13because I'm French,
32:14he's French,
32:15he's my president,
32:16he's my leader,
32:16let's go.
32:17So I'm not going
32:17to question every decision
32:18because otherwise
32:19we never move.
32:21It's not very French
32:22of you, by the way.
32:23Well,
32:24but you know,
32:25I think there is
32:26French and French.
32:28And France
32:30has led the world
32:31in terms of freedom.
32:33The Declaration
32:33of the Rights of the Human
32:34and the Citizens
32:35of the American Constitution,
32:36they got it
32:36from Montesquieu.
32:37So French
32:41have designed freedom.
32:43Like,
32:43what is freedom
32:44and democracy
32:44in this world?
32:47The French
32:47have had a huge contribution.
32:49So,
32:50yes,
32:50I'm French
32:50because I come from
32:54the French Revolution,
32:55I come from
32:56the Declaration,
32:56I come from
32:57the cheap and pin industry.
32:58So,
32:58yes,
32:58I'm French
32:59and France is great.
33:00Thank you so much,
33:01Pascal.
33:02Pleasure to speak.
33:06Such a pleasure.
33:07Thank you so much.
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