- 7 weeks ago
John and Joey reveal how devotion to Jesus can slowly be entangled with authoritarian control inside the New Apostolic Reformation. Joey describes how constant pressure to obey “apostles,” secrecy around finances, plagiarism from the pulpit, and emotional manipulation led to a crisis of trust in leadership—yet not in Christ. This deep and honest conversation shows that spiritual abuse thrives wherever human power replaces biblical accountability, but freedom and healing are possible.
This testimony offers hope to anyone escaping high-control churches: you can leave toxic authority behind without leaving Jesus. Your faith can survive—and grow stronger—after the NAR.
00:00 – Introduction
00:31 – Joey’s Background, Bible College, and Early Charismatic Influence
05:04 – Entering the Charismatic Church and the First Major Crisis
10:05 – Transitioning Into the NAR Church and Early Warning Signs
15:06 – Financial Secrecy, Control, and the Breakdown of Accountability
20:04 – Hidden Sin, Outbursts, and the Culture of Image-Protection
24:01 – Confusion in Teaching, Borrowed Sermons, and Doctrinal Drift
29:01 – Spiritual Abuse, Emotional Manipulation, and Loss of Trust
33:21 – The “Little Gods” Doctrine and the Collapse of Discernment
38:02 – Leaving the Church, Family Impact, and Social Fallout
43:05 – How Abuse Warps Faith and Why Many Lose Their Religion
48:05 – The Passion Translation, Authority Claims, and Scripture Distortion
53:03 – Preaching *At* the People vs. Leading Them Toward Christ
57:04 – If You Could Go Back: What Joey Would Tell His Earlier Self
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
This testimony offers hope to anyone escaping high-control churches: you can leave toxic authority behind without leaving Jesus. Your faith can survive—and grow stronger—after the NAR.
00:00 – Introduction
00:31 – Joey’s Background, Bible College, and Early Charismatic Influence
05:04 – Entering the Charismatic Church and the First Major Crisis
10:05 – Transitioning Into the NAR Church and Early Warning Signs
15:06 – Financial Secrecy, Control, and the Breakdown of Accountability
20:04 – Hidden Sin, Outbursts, and the Culture of Image-Protection
24:01 – Confusion in Teaching, Borrowed Sermons, and Doctrinal Drift
29:01 – Spiritual Abuse, Emotional Manipulation, and Loss of Trust
33:21 – The “Little Gods” Doctrine and the Collapse of Discernment
38:02 – Leaving the Church, Family Impact, and Social Fallout
43:05 – How Abuse Warps Faith and Why Many Lose Their Religion
48:05 – The Passion Translation, Authority Claims, and Scripture Distortion
53:03 – Preaching *At* the People vs. Leading Them Toward Christ
57:04 – If You Could Go Back: What Joey Would Tell His Earlier Self
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Joey Eblen, former member
00:00:47of the NAR. Joey, it's good to have you on and to share your story. I'm getting so many
00:00:52people contacting me about the New Apostolic Reformation. In fact, I want to say the last
00:00:58two or three interviews that I've done have been out of people who have come in some way
00:01:03connected to the NAR. And then I had this one guy who had no idea what it was, but yet was
00:01:09probably in it, which was kind of a funny side story. But it's this big spider web of mess,
00:01:14and hopefully by sharing your story, we can untangle that mess. So maybe if you could start
00:01:20by just telling everybody a little bit about yourself.
00:01:22Yeah, well, first, John, I just want you to know that I appreciate, and I know that everything
00:01:27is about Jesus and His glory, and that's why we do the things that we do. But I just want to say
00:01:35thank you, because when you leave a church, and you leave something like the NAR, and I know you are
00:01:42very aware of this, but you really have to work through things, you know? And that's kind of my goal
00:01:50here today is not really to turn it into a bash session about, you know, my former pastor and
00:01:59the control issues and things like that, but really to warn people about the spiritual abuse and
00:02:06try to awaken them or stop them from getting into the dangers of it, you know? So I just want to say
00:02:14thank you, because I have a lot of friends who are working through what they thought they believed,
00:02:22and some are in church, and some are out of church right now, you know? So, and I know you've probably
00:02:28gotten that a lot, but it really does mean something, you know? So keep up the good work.
00:02:33Well, thank you. It is a tough journey. I remember the first weeks of that, I thought my life had ended.
00:02:39I couldn't eat. I couldn't sleep. All I could think about was, how could I have been so wrong,
00:02:47but how could the leadership have covered up so much of this from me? And for me, it was a bit
00:02:52more difficult than some, because my family was part of this, and, you know, I had the added
00:02:58complexities of knowing that family members were purposefully deceiving people, and that's another
00:03:04ball of worms. It's really difficult. But yeah, it is a difficult journey, and I don't,
00:03:09blame people whenever they just walk away for a while. You have to walk away at some point.
00:03:15I tried to fight it myself. I tried to just hang on to everything, and try to say, well, there must
00:03:22be some part of this that was real. I'm just going to hang on to what I can, and just take little
00:03:26pieces off the top. But what you realize over time is it's the foundation that's wrong, and until you
00:03:32just clean your slate, you really are sticking to the same things and the same belief set. So,
00:03:38it is quite a journey.
00:03:40Yeah. So, like you were saying, my name is Joey Eblen. It's funny, I'm 41 years old. I'm married.
00:03:46I have four kids. We live in a small town in Southern Illinois. My wife and I both actually
00:03:52went to what I would consider a conservative Bible college, and not really a school of ministry,
00:03:58because they're different. They really are vastly different. I went to a St. Louis Christian
00:04:03college, which was the Stone Campbell movement, right, the Christian church, the Church of
00:04:11Christ. And it took me five years to graduate Bible college, and it took my wife four. I always
00:04:17say she's smarter than I am, because it's true, you know. But I wouldn't have traded that for
00:04:23anything in the world. The foundations that they taught, the hermeneutical principles, you know,
00:04:29the good godly men and examples, you know. I mean, these are professors who don't have any,
00:04:35don't have a lot of money, been married to one woman their entire life, have sewed into all the
00:04:41local churches, sewed into the Bible colleges. I mean, it was just, you know, it was more valuable
00:04:47than gold, let's put it that way, you know. Which is actually kind of crazy, because I got saved at 21
00:04:55at a small country Christian church, and in February of 2005. And I remember sitting there
00:05:05going, man, I just feel like I've got to go somewhere. Like, I don't know what it is. And
00:05:09then I heard St. Louis Christian College, and it was like, I knew that I knew that that was the place,
00:05:14you know. And so I went there in August. So I got saved in February, went in August. I didn't know
00:05:22anything, because I wasn't raised in the church. I mean, I had good parents who did the absolute best
00:05:27that they could do, you know, but was not raised in the church. And I remember going there, and they
00:05:35gave us, like, this all-encompassing test over the Bible. And I didn't, I probably got, I mean,
00:05:42if I was lucky, I probably got 10 out of 200 questions, right? I knew nothing, you know. But by the
00:05:48time I was a senior, I felt like I smoked it, you know. And so, but in Bible college,
00:05:55that's actually when my wife and I turned charismatic, you know, which I find really
00:06:04unique. And to the, I would say, the benefit or want to give one of the,
00:06:13the president of the college is due, because he actually sat me down, he warned me about the
00:06:20charismatic movement, really about the moral failures, really the moral failures mostly
00:06:28centered around sexual immorality, you know. And, but what really started my journey was
00:06:38I had a friend who started going to a charismatic church, and he had given me a couple CDs of
00:06:44these preachers, and they started talking about all of the, the supernatural. And I remember
00:06:50thinking, if that's real, like, if that is real, I want it, you know. Because our college did not
00:06:59talk against it, it just didn't talk about it, right? They did a very good job of helping you build your
00:07:07own foundation according to the scripture. But I went all in, unfortunately, you know. I listened
00:07:15to every sermon that you could get your hands on. I did every study in the Bible I could do,
00:07:22and basically got to a point that I just believed, that I believed, that I believed, and no one could
00:07:27talk me out of it, that the fact that the gifts of the Spirit were here today, and not only here today,
00:07:33but vitally important. And I think that's probably one of the biggest changes that I've had now,
00:07:39because I still believe in God's supernatural working power. I just will never, ever be a part
00:07:48of a place that has such a primary focus on them. I just had this conversation not an hour ago with
00:07:56somebody else. Part of the reason why I haven't really picked a side, I know people want me to,
00:08:02and they often mention in the comments, but I don't pick the side between cessationist or
00:08:07continuous, because I have experienced things that cannot be explained, and I understand that.
00:08:14However, I loosely use the phrase, which I made up, just pulled out of a hat while I was talking one day,
00:08:21skeptizationist or something like this, because I'm skeptical of the fraud. I'm skeptical of the
00:08:28trickery. I have seen things. I have friends that just, you know, we've had interactions that
00:08:33I know that there was something more that doesn't make sense to the human mind. I fully get this.
00:08:39So I'm not going to denounce the whole thing, but whenever I see people using parlor tricks to do the
00:08:45same thing, and the comment I made earlier, which I'll, I think it was on a podcast, so I think it
00:08:51will be, um, it's worthy of mentioning again, when you really have something like this, you don't want
00:08:57to flaunt it. You're actually, especially if you have the gift of, like, uh, they call it in our
00:09:03cult discernment, you could peer into the very soul of the person you're talking to. Well, if you really
00:09:08had this, you, people are just freaked out when they can do something like this. It's not something that
00:09:14you just brag about. It's something that you, you really don't want it. Why would I want to know
00:09:18the inner secrets of your heart? It would scare me to death. So when I see all of these people doing
00:09:24it, you know, it's, it becomes, it's a little bit laughable when you understand how, how it all
00:09:29works. So I don't, I don't ridicule it, but at the same time I have seen things and I understand that
00:09:35there's a lot more going on in this world than meets the eye. Right. It's like, I always just want to
00:09:40leave room for God to do something, you know, uh, but it's just not the primary focus. The primary
00:09:46focus is growing into the image of Jesus and sharing the gospel and growing in maturity and
00:09:51being there for one another, you know, and, and living a life of humility. Right. Um, so we had
00:10:00left Bible college and went to this charismatic church and, uh, we loved it and we thought we were
00:10:04going to live and die there. And, uh, uh, we loved everybody. We loved the pastor. And what had
00:10:09happened is the pastor had a moral, a moral failure with the worship leader and it was a small church
00:10:15and it just devastated everybody there. I mean, there's still some people there who I think have
00:10:21never come back to the faith because, because of it. Um, and so my wife and I were in a dilemma because,
00:10:28um, we decided that we needed to leave the church, but we're not the kind of people that just set out.
00:10:34Right. Like we knew that going to church was essential. And so we never missed, um, a single
00:10:42church service, but we just didn't have a home. And so after about six months, maybe we just decided,
00:10:48Hey, listen, we got to pick a church. Uh, we need to go there every time the doors are open because
00:10:56that's the only time we're going to actually, uh, meet the people, get to know them and really learn
00:11:01about the church. And so there was this church that was close to us that used to do things with
00:11:06the, our first church out of college. Um, and so we started going to it, right. Uh, knew everybody
00:11:14had a good relationship. And then, so eventually, like I said, we just, anytime the doors were open,
00:11:19we were there and, uh, it became our home church. We had no idea that the new apostolic reformation
00:11:26even existed, you know, and it really wasn't even until three, four years ago that I actually heard
00:11:34it come out of the pastor's mouth. But, uh, the pastor, you know, would always say that he is,
00:11:40had an apostolic gifting, you know, and I always struggled with, and I've listened to your podcast,
00:11:46uh, about this, you know? And so it has me thinking, cause I, I do struggle with the fact of,
00:11:53um, you know, I think we all are okay with the evangelist, the pastor and the teacher,
00:11:57but that prophet and apostle just, oh, you know, but I'm like, right. And it's like, um,
00:12:03am I willing to do away with all of them or why am I okay with three and not two, you know,
00:12:08it's just that whole thing. And it's okay if I don't know, right. And that's the beauty of God.
00:12:11Um, but I always kind of looked at the apostle as this, there was obviously no one will ever be
00:12:18like the 12, right. And no one will ever have that kind of authority. Um, but it was more the
00:12:24church planting gift, you know? And so that's kind of, I was okay with it. Um, and so thankful
00:12:31for what Bible college did teach me. Um, but over time, you know, cause we were in there for like 10
00:12:37years and I didn't become an elder until, um, I don't know, probably three or four years before
00:12:43we left. And, um, then I really got to see what the NAR really was about. And I tell you, it wasn't
00:12:52until, um, you started teaching about Christ for the nations. I'm like, is there a handbook for this
00:13:01kind of stuff? You know, like I am serious. Like, like I had to, I'm like, then I finally figured
00:13:09it out. This is what these people are taught. I mean, and you said it the other day in a podcast
00:13:13that you had released about, it's like, they all have this like Moses mandate on their life. It's
00:13:18like, they all want, I've been saying this actually for about a year and I heard you say it. And I
00:13:22thought exactly. It's like, they want the, everything under the old Testament where it's like,
00:13:28it's all about the one man, but they want it like under the new covenant. And it's like,
00:13:33it's not, you know what I mean? It's just crazy. And it's all about like their call and their
00:13:37gifting. And there's really no room for anyone else, you know? Um, but we began to see that. Um,
00:13:45and it really didn't set very well with this, but when you're so sucked into the people and the
00:13:51pressure, and that's what is kind of embarrassing. It's like knowing some of this stuff was going on.
00:13:57And why did we stay so long? You know, uh, we had family members in it and, um, you know, like,
00:14:05like, uh, like one of the things that we saw was the financial accountability. Um,
00:14:13so we used to get, and it took several years to where this actually started happening, but
00:14:18we would get a monthly report. Okay. And it was in Quicken or Quickbase or it'd be Quicken. And, um,
00:14:26it was just hard to understand. Like, like there was no, there was nothing inside of me that was
00:14:33like, Oh, I think there's fraud going on. It was like, I just don't understand this. Like the way
00:14:38it's broken up just doesn't make any sense. So I call the, the, uh, secretary and I say, Hey,
00:14:42can you just send me, um, like the full, full expense report? Like none of this, you know,
00:14:50I don't want it broke. I wanted just the fullness of it all. Uh, and again, not to dig for anything
00:14:56that was wrong just because I couldn't understand it. And so she calls the pastor and, uh, he says,
00:15:06absolutely not. Um, right. And, uh, if he has a question about the finances, he can ask me and I'm
00:15:13like, what, that doesn't make any sense. Cause my heart behind it was not, but what it tells me is
00:15:19things going on inside of him, you know? And so, um, the next Sunday at church, we had a meeting
00:15:26before the service and it, it was just like, listen, we're shutting off all reports. Um,
00:15:32if you've got a question about finances, you can ask me. And my question to you is, uh, what are you
00:15:37even doing here? If you don't trust me? I mean, it's just mind boggling. That's unbelievable. I,
00:15:43you know, whenever somebody acts like that, it's like an invitation to, to figure out, okay,
00:15:49what are you hiding, buddy? And I think legally they have an obligation. They have to be transparent
00:15:54about the reports. If you ask them, I, and I know that you can go through the IRS and you can get
00:15:58many of the reports if they're, if they're holding their nonprofit status, but yeah, they, I was shocked
00:16:05the first time that I went to a non-cult church that had very strict policies on, we must be
00:16:13transparent. And they handed me the financial report and it was clear, concise, right down to
00:16:20this is how much we spent on toilet paper. I started, I'll never forget. I was in the business
00:16:25meeting and I, I was looking through this. I started laughing. I don't know if people are
00:16:30watching me, but right down to toilet paper, you got to be kidding me. We had at the cult church
00:16:35that I think they only gave just the overall number and that was it. Here's what we spent.
00:16:41Okay. What are you spending it on? You know, and I come to find out later, there's,
00:16:45there's a whole lot of issues with even that. So whenever they're not transparent, there's a
00:16:49problem here. Definitely. Right. And you know, the church we're at now, like I, I, I love it. And
00:16:55so our children's church, and I'm not very good at judging the size of church. I never have been.
00:17:03That's just something that I don't even really think about. So if any of you guys watch it,
00:17:07and I think the church is like 150 people and you say, Oh no, Joe, it's like 250. That's just my bad,
00:17:12you know? Um, but the children's church, they, my four children bring in pennies and quarters and
00:17:19dimes and, you know, dollar bills, and they have it marked down every single penny that my four kids
00:17:27bring in. And they are four years old to 10 years old, just the transparency, you know,
00:17:36and that level of excellence, honestly, to track down pennies, you know, but I'm just like,
00:17:40it's just speaks volumes to when people don't have an agenda and aren't trying to build their
00:17:45own thing.
00:17:47Well, and the transparency. So you mentioned the, nobody wants the apostle or prophet after
00:17:52you've been burned. Well, the transparency helps you prevent being burned. If you're very open about
00:17:58it, people, that's how you get people to trust you. You don't say that forcibly you must trust me,
00:18:03right? Or get out of here. Obviously that's not going to work, but the, um, so the fivefold
00:18:08ministry mentioned in Ephesians, I actually don't even have a problem with this. I've, I don't,
00:18:14I don't know if I've mentioned, I think, I guess I've mentioned on the podcast, but I have a
00:18:17great grandmother who was apparently a prophetess and apparently had some accurate prophecies.
00:18:24So, and this is coming from family. I wasn't there, so I can't back any of this up, but I have no reason
00:18:29not to think that they still exist, but the way that the movement has shaped it where it is an
00:18:35authoritarian structure. That's the thing I have a problem with. There is no hierarchy in this.
00:18:41There's Jesus and everybody else, if you read the Bible. So whenever they create a hierarchy,
00:18:45they're hiding something. And then when they hide the, when they're not transparent with the finances,
00:18:50you can tell they're clearly hiding something. What is it?
00:18:53Yeah. And, you know, and that's the thing, most of the people in the congregation and none of the
00:18:57eldership at that time would have ever thought that any, you know, anything wrong was going on.
00:19:04You know, like I said, my literal ask was because I couldn't make sense of the report, you know,
00:19:11because it is my job to oversee things, you know, and I think that that was one of the biggest issues
00:19:16that the, you know, apostle had with me because, like, I wasn't saved there. I came from, really,
00:19:26I got saved and went to Bible college for five years. And it was just like, I knew the responsibility
00:19:31of an elder. And I just spent, like, two years being so worried about how I would be judged by
00:19:38the Lord concerning the things that I believe that He put me over in that position, you know?
00:19:44And that was one of the main reasons why we had to leave. Well, it was one of the stackable
00:19:49reasons was because it was just, I was just worried about that, knowing that certain things were going
00:19:56on, but yet had no control. Because really, you can say, well, you were an elder. Well, listen,
00:20:01no one's really an elder when in a place like this. Like, you have, there's zero control.
00:20:08Yeah, the elders are basically the enforcers in that type of movement.
00:20:12Yeah, you know, and so, but I was just so worried about that, you know, like, just the finances.
00:20:17And finances is just one aspect of it, you know, like, the covering up of sin. We had no clue just
00:20:24the depths of sin that was covered up, you know, in his family internally, really. I'm not really here
00:20:32to talk about, you know, that kind of stuff. But I know that it, that is a part of that, the NAR,
00:20:38you know, it's like protecting people for what? Their platform, you know, like, and like, we just
00:20:45couldn't be a part of that. Like, we just, we couldn't. And I think one of the things that
00:20:55got really bad was the outburst and the anger and the meetings, the yelling, you know, and just that,
00:21:04like, forcible control. I just remember sitting there thinking, like, wow, just like, absolute,
00:21:10like, disregard for scripture, you know, the cussing. I know that there was alcohol and stuff
00:21:20like that happening, but I didn't find that out till later, you know, because obviously,
00:21:24one of the couples had said to us who had left, we said, we always wondered why you guys never hung
00:21:30out with the pastor and his wife. And this is what they said, oh, it's because you guys didn't drink.
00:21:37And it was like, you know, all that's afterwards, you know, just so hidden and isolated, you know,
00:21:45but just that kind of stuff, it was just, couldn't, we just weren't okay with it, you know.
00:21:52Yeah, I grew up being in the upper tier, not the down to the rank and file. I would, I would have
00:21:58been, my family would have been the enforcer level because of my grandfather. And I knew the leaders
00:22:04and elders that were drinking, and we're in a religion that's telling you that if you're drinking,
00:22:08you're going straight to hell. I knew which ones were doing it and which ones weren't. And I,
00:22:14interestingly, while I was in it, I really didn't have a problem with that so much if they didn't
00:22:18get drunk. Because I did read my Bible, and I knew, I knew what the Bible said about it. But I knew the
00:22:25ones that were doing it. The problem that I did have was, I, one of the, one of the people that was
00:22:31involved was in a leadership capacity, and they were preaching to other people against them doing
00:22:37it. And when you set up that double standard, I don't even know how you could inwardly do this
00:22:43and be, and sleep at night. How can you sleep at night knowing that you're doing the very thing
00:22:47you're condemning somebody else for? And I became aware after leaving, not just because of that
00:22:54reason, but many other things similar to this. It's more about the image than it is actually even
00:22:59the religion. It's more about the image than it is even Christianity, because they don't care as
00:23:04long as they maintain the image. And every single guest that I have on, no matter who they are,
00:23:10no matter which group that has sprung off of this, they all have that same theme. They were trying to
00:23:15uphold an image. They're trying to be better than a human can possibly be, because humans, by nature,
00:23:21humans have problems, and human problems are getting in the way of maintaining this image.
00:23:27Oh, absolutely. And you really do see it, and it's sad. It's kind of like, what good is it to gain
00:23:35the world but to lose your soul? And it was so – I was listening to one of your podcasts about the
00:23:45manifest sons of God, and it's like the preaching just began to just get so loose with the Word.
00:23:55And I remember sitting there even when we first started going, and I was like, how come I can't
00:24:02understand these sermons? You know what I mean? It's like, am I the only one in the room who is
00:24:07struggling to understand the sermon, and is it above me? Am I not spiritual enough? Am I not
00:24:14charismatic enough to understand what they're talking about? I'm not dumb, but it's just like,
00:24:20it's a whole other level. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Sometimes, I go back and
00:24:25forth on this. Sometimes, I think, because I have studied how mind control works and how
00:24:29manipulation works. Sometimes, I think that they spout off just insane doctrines, because if you
00:24:35can confuse the mind, you can control the mind. That's one of the techniques, is you throw the
00:24:40mind off guard while the mind is racing to figure out what it is they're saying. Well, then you say all
00:24:45of the stuff that you want to plan in the head, and it's a tool. It's a technique. But on the other
00:24:50hand, I know some of the people doing this kind of thing, and they truly believe the nonsense that's
00:24:56coming out of their mouth, but it is truly nonsense. The thing that I have, I don't know that I've
00:25:01mentioned this before, but the funny part of this is, I know people who, if you know the people
00:25:07themselves, they, I hate to, I'm going to tread very carefully here, because I don't want to speak
00:25:13evil of people, but I know people who have mental issues. I'll just say it like that. There are mental
00:25:19issues, and they're in a capacity of leadership. And anybody who personally knows the people involved,
00:25:27they know that they have mental issues. I think the word nutcase was used at one time.
00:25:32So, you know the people, they have issues. Well, once they start preaching and get into the spirit
00:25:40and all of the stuff, some of those mental issues are coming out. And if you know the person and the
00:25:44way they talk, the way they think, you're hearing the mental issues. But the people who aren't familiar
00:25:50with them, they think that this is some new thing, and oh, I can't even understand it. Oh my gosh,
00:25:55what is this? And they're really hearing mental problems coming out of the mouth, right?
00:26:00So, the interesting part of all of this is, in this type of movement, because of the way that
00:26:06the foundation has been laid, there are people who actually believe that this nutcase type speech
00:26:14is actually coming from God. And they want it more than they want thoughts that are organized in a way
00:26:21that you can understand it. Oh yeah. And I mean, it just speaks like the whole, well, the Lord, God told
00:26:26me, God told me, God told me. And it leaves you powerless to defend it, right? I mean, and that's
00:26:34one of the biggest issues, I think, because it's just like, all of it was like that. It was like,
00:26:41you know, for one week, we're going one direction, and a month later, we're going another direction.
00:26:46It's like, really, whatever book you're reading, because you're not really reading the Bible,
00:26:49you're just reading books, you know? And I remember in Bible college, this is what they told us.
00:26:53They said, if you want bad theology, right, read books. And yeah, right? Like, books are valuable.
00:27:00My wife's actually written two books, you know? So, like, we're pro books. I've got a lot of books.
00:27:07But it's true. The Bible needs to be the main resource that you're using. In fact, I remember
00:27:13one time, I was in, I think it was Romans in college, and I raised my hand, and I asked this
00:27:19question, I said, so I was reading this book, and then the doctor's professor said, that's your
00:27:25problem, brother, read the Bible. And I know he was just, you know, you build a good relationship
00:27:31with these people. And I know he was just messing with me, but I know he meant it. And I will have
00:27:36never forget, have forgotten that ever, you know? And this is something else he always told us,
00:27:42always be reading the Gospels, you know? And, like, those two things, like, have stuck with me
00:27:48and my wife, you know? And it's like, so if you want bad theology, read books, you know? And that's
00:27:53actually, so after several years of sitting there and listening to these things and not truly
00:27:58understanding them, I started going, this just doesn't make any sense. And so, I would get my phone
00:28:07out and I would type in a sentence that he had said, and then I would literally find the blog
00:28:13or the book online. And I had to quit doing this because it was, like, every week. And it wasn't
00:28:19just a little. It was almost the entire message, you know? And I don't have a problem with using other
00:28:27people's material, but you need to cite them and source them and give them credit, you know? But it was
00:28:35no credit. Like, even things like, I mean, I'm sitting here reading the passage or reading the
00:28:43blog on my phone, and it'll be, and then the Lord took me to this scripture. And I'm like, that is not
00:28:49true. It's literally right here. Like, the full-blown lies, you know? And it was like, you're a fraud.
00:28:54Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern
00:29:00Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements
00:29:05into the New Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's
00:29:12website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research
00:29:19of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,
00:29:26audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation
00:29:32on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the
00:29:37cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top. And as always,
00:29:43be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
00:29:49On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:29:53You know, and knowledge is power, not just powerful in the way that that phrase is intended, but
00:29:59powerful for yourself. I've mentioned this in the podcast. I was in a men's study group, and
00:30:04you know, when you mentioned the book, it made me think of it, because I think there was a
00:30:09some book involved on the consequences of anger or something like this. But I'm in this men's group
00:30:14anyway, and the leader of the men's group is saying that how much of a sin it is to get angry,
00:30:21and he goes off in this tangent. And I just like literally had a few months prior to this escape
00:30:26to cult that was having emotional control, behavioral control, all of the bite model.
00:30:31And I'm sitting here thinking, oh my gosh, what have I stepped into? You can't do this. And I
00:30:36actually, believe it or not, I'm a little outspoken. And right there in the men's group,
00:30:41I broke the silence. And I said, but Paul said, in your anger, do not sin.
00:30:46And actually got called out after the men's group and was scolded pretty harshly for this.
00:30:52And I said, look, man, I can't really say what you're saying is correct or not, but I know what
00:30:59Paul said. It's not, it doesn't match, man. It doesn't match. And I look back on that,
00:31:06not because of the interaction. It was an unhealthy interaction afterwards. But I look back on this
00:31:12because I knew what it said. And I knew and could hear the difference between what he was saying and
00:31:20what the Bible was saying. So I knew the knowledge was powerful for me. And I can't be deceived in
00:31:25that area because I already know you're not going to toy with my emotions. It's not going to work.
00:31:29There are many people who've never even read the Bible who are Christian. And this boggles my mind.
00:31:35If you're Christian, why would you not read the book who is describing your religion, right?
00:31:39The book that was supposed to be given to you to empower you like this.
00:31:43Yeah, I totally agree. Well, because, you know, one of the other things with the NAR is everything's
00:31:48the religious spirit, you know, that's the religious spirit. That's the religious spirit. And I think it
00:31:54was one of the ladies you had on one time and she was talking, I think it was, maybe it was a comment,
00:32:00but like, I really believe that the NAR is the thing that actually brings spiritual bondage,
00:32:06you know, and it's all about freedom. And that's the religious spirit, but it's driven out of so
00:32:12much hate and anger. And I used to preach that all the time that Jesus could have these big
00:32:17confrontations, but he never hated them in his heart, you know? And it's like, but it's just so,
00:32:25I don't know. I just think about how many times it's just, well, that's just religion. Well,
00:32:28that's just religion. Well, that's just religion. Well, I'm like, let me tell you something.
00:32:32James tells you, you better get some religion, you know, you better show up to church. You better
00:32:37read your Bible. You better be mindful of the widows and the orphans. You know, like I always say,
00:32:41our problem is we just haven't seen pure religion, right? Like, you know, but Christianity is religion
00:32:48and, you know, just the NAR just attack. Well, that's just religion. That's just religion. Get
00:32:52that religion off you. And I'm like, read your Bible, you know, like read it, you know? But so like,
00:33:00I would sit there and I would, I just, I just had to quit following the sermons on my phone because
00:33:06it just, it wasn't doing my heart good. Right. So I knew, I found out what I knew. I found out why
00:33:13these sermons sounded like the way they sounded because they weren't from him at all, you know?
00:33:18And then I just started hearing this doctrine. And I remember one time he said, I don't remember what
00:33:23he was talking about, but he said, uh, little gods, you know, I know. Right. You just, I know,
00:33:30I know, you know what I'm talking about. Right. So I'm like, um, but like that good person inside
00:33:37of me, you know, the Christian person is going, surely that's not what he means. Like, you know,
00:33:43I went to Bible college. I'm a critical thinker, you know? And I'm like, maybe he means the fact
00:33:49that the only way we would actually be like God is the fact that we are now righteous because of
00:33:55what he did. And no, that's not what he meant, you know? But when everyone in that congregation,
00:34:01like, it's just, I never want to beat myself up for believing the best in me, but like,
00:34:07there comes a time where you have to really say, you know what, like, if they're saying this stuff,
00:34:13they mean it, you know? And I think that's like one of the biggest traps. Like I had to finally
00:34:20realize like, no, no, I quit making excuses for them because you're a good person, right? Or you
00:34:25don't think they're off that much. No, they really are meaning what they're saying, which is mind
00:34:32boggling to say little gods, you know? You know, Paul said in your anger, do not sin. But Jesus said
00:34:39to love your enemies. And this really hit me hard after I left because not only was this a foreign
00:34:48idea in the movement, people took it a step further. It wasn't just their enemies that they
00:34:53hated, but they hated anybody who disagreed with their doctrine, theology, the spiritual world that
00:35:00they're proclaiming. If you disagree with the fivefold ministry, they were literally bringing down
00:35:05curses upon your head. And if you ever walk away from it, they will especially bring down curses
00:35:10upon your head. Jesus said, love your enemy. This is not the way of a Christian. It took me a long
00:35:16time to understand that it really wasn't a Christian religion at all. It was just a framework that you
00:35:22could enable people to take control over other people. And yes, they used the name Jesus in their
00:35:28speeches, but that's all they were. They were speeches and they really had nothing to do with learning how to
00:35:33love your enemy, how to show the actual fruits of the spirit, how to show the peace, love. And you
00:35:40know, so once I began to understand this and I started reading the Bible over and over and over
00:35:45again, it really changed the way that I looked at all of it because I don't know how you feel. I know
00:35:53that some people, when they first leave in their journey, they kind of get angry at the people that
00:35:58they left because there was such a harsh reaction when they left. I felt that I was, I was mad at the
00:36:06world, man, because not only was I angry because they shunned me and all of this, but worse, they had
00:36:12deceived me. And 37 years of my life, I thought was wasted, but I've come to learn. It really wasn't a
00:36:17waste. It was me learning all of the things that I know now that I hold dear. I learned some solid
00:36:26things in this. You can learn from even in this type of religion, but you have to learn the
00:36:32difference between what it is and what Christianity was. So I spent the next several years just trying
00:36:38to understand the variance. Here's what I was taught. Here's what the Bible said. What is this
00:36:43in between and why are they walking this in between? What is this variance? And interestingly,
00:36:48if you open that door, then the world of all of this new apostolic reformation just kind of
00:36:54unfolds because in the variance here is the foundation that was laid for this other one.
00:36:59And they built upon that variance and they created their own each time getting further and further
00:37:05and further away from the Bible and oddly into mysticism and spiritualism. So I began to wonder,
00:37:12okay, this wasn't Christianity. What is it? And now it's heading towards spiritualism. If I can track
00:37:18that movement in that direction, is it, is it something evil? What is this mess? And I don't know how you
00:37:23feel, but I, I struggle with that quite a bit after I left. Oh yeah. I mean, so when we had left that
00:37:29first church, we knew, um, like we had already went through it once. Right. And we had survived.
00:37:35Uh, and so we, when we finally made the decision to leave, we knew that no one would talk to us.
00:37:44We would lose all friends. Um, so we knew that going in, but we needed our children to understand that
00:37:50Jesus was worth it. Right. No matter what. Um, and so like, we were just like, we've been here before,
00:37:57right. Our faith has been tested. Like he is worth it no matter what. And, and we knew that like taking
00:38:04the stance. So our children wouldn't know that he was worth, it was more beneficial. And not only that,
00:38:10we could not let our kids think that this is what normal Christianity looks like, you know?
00:38:16And so when we left, like we had a plan, it was, you know, read the Bible every day together as a
00:38:22family, which we've been doing that for years anyway. Uh, and it was, uh, get plugged into a
00:38:27church is find a church, uh, until you get a home church, you know, just don't miss. And then also
00:38:33keep your mouth shut. Like, like, you know, we knew that we would be the bad guys. It's not church
00:38:41discipline they're walking out. It's anyone who leaves, they are the bad guy, you know? And it's,
00:38:46and it's really how they, how you treated the pastor, you know, it's this almost mind boggling.
00:38:53It's like all about him. So we knew that going in that we would lose fellowship with everybody,
00:38:58you know, and they, and, uh, within about a month, seven other families, I think it was seven
00:39:05families, five to seven left. And we didn't even tell them the story, you know, cause we weren't
00:39:11going to be like that. We weren't trying to sow division. We just knew that this wasn't for us
00:39:15and for our household. And we have friends. Uh, there's a friend of ours who she's still,
00:39:21she's even said like, that was a waste. Like, so when you were saying that I was like, and so like,
00:39:26that's just what we've been praying for her is to like, it wasn't a waste, you know, like you need
00:39:30to see how this is all connected, you know, uh, like you were saying, but it did like as much as
00:39:38I'd like to pretend like that, uh, pastor doesn't take up real estate in my mind. He does. And I hate
00:39:45that. And it bothers me. And I want to have a heart posture, um, that he repents and he, you know,
00:39:52is found faithful on the day of the Lord's coming or at his death. Um, but it's like, there's just some
00:39:58real estate in my mind that he takes up because you don't even know you're in spiritual abuse.
00:40:04Like you don't even know it, you know? Um, and so, yeah, we've had a lot to deal with,
00:40:10you know, with that, but we also knew that like, he's worth it. And I think going through it the
00:40:16first time really helped a lot. You know what I mean? Yeah. The spiritual abuse and the spiritual
00:40:22trauma is something that's really hard to work through when children are abused and traumatized.
00:40:28After they become an adult and they start going into counseling and therapy, the first thing that
00:40:33they will do is talk about all of the negative things that happen between them and whoever was
00:40:38the abuser. And it's really difficult. It's a touchy situation because you don't want them to
00:40:43sympathize too much with the abuser so much that they, um, form this weird relationship. But you also
00:40:49want them to understand that the people who are doing this to you, they're also human. They're also
00:40:54people and there were good times. And so a lot of times counselors will have you focus on,
00:41:00okay, what were we, we know the bad memories. What are the happy memories? What, what happened
00:41:05that you can relate to that you did enjoy? And it kind of lifts you out of that depression because
00:41:11you're thinking of things and memories that you hold dear. It was really hard for me to do this.
00:41:17After I left, my whole family cut me off. Um, I had a few family members escape with me, but
00:41:23for the majority of my family cut me off and I, all I could think about were the things that they said
00:41:30right whenever I left. And anytime they come up in conversation or if I saw them when I was out on
00:41:36the town, that's what I thought about what they said to me when I left and the aftermath.
00:41:40It took me years before I started to understand. I need to think about the memories that I did enjoy
00:41:46with them. And I had a lot of them. I had a, I had really good memories. It wasn't until I discovered
00:41:52that most of the things that were being taught weren't true. And I started realizing that I'm,
00:41:58I'm in this world of deception. I have to leave. That's when it got difficult for me. So I had all
00:42:03of these good memories and then bam, just right out on the street that we, we don't want you anymore
00:42:08because you don't believe our fiction that we're telling you.
00:42:12Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, when I first, when we first started about like, I really do think that
00:42:17that's part of your ministry is to help people work through things, you know, cause we don't want
00:42:23them to leave the faith. Like that's the absolute worst case scenario because Jesus is real, you know,
00:42:29like he is the rock and the, the, the things that, that you know, to be true according to the
00:42:35scripture are true, you know? And I think that's one of the, been one of the driving forces is
00:42:42for me to desire that people would not, would leave an NAR or never be involved in one is because of
00:42:49the spiritual abuse because not all of the teaching is wrong. Like there are good Christian people and
00:42:54you can get saved in an NAR church. I mean, you know what I mean? But it's the spiritual abuse that
00:42:59happens to some that derails them for eternity. Like that's what is the most dangerous part to me.
00:43:05And honestly, you know, if their biblical teaching is strained right now, where's it going to be in
00:43:1115, 20 years? And so that's the other dangerous part, you know, I believe in safety. Like nowhere
00:43:17in the Bible do I see the cutting edge. You know, what I see is hold fast to the things that you were
00:43:24taught, you know? Like, and so like, that's, you know, like, honestly, like that's one of the
00:43:30dangers because I know you can get saved in an NAR church. I know you can't. And I know all of it's
00:43:35not wrong, but it's just the spiritual abuse that goes on. And then on, and then if you were to have
00:43:42any real issues and then come under that authoritarianism and just get, I mean, yeah,
00:43:50it's just that spiritual abuse that, that worries me, that, that causes people to leave the faith,
00:43:55you know? And that's why I think it's so dangerous. And it gives the whole religion a bad name. I was
00:44:00having this conversation with Bob. There comes a point when you understand how all of this works
00:44:05and how influential all of these people are. And yet many of them are predators. Many of them,
00:44:10most of them in these types of groups are having some sort of abuse in their, in their, uh,
00:44:16church at minimum spiritual abuse, you know? And so they branded themselves with this image.
00:44:23Whenever people who've never been in contact with any of this ask you, what is your faith? And you
00:44:29tell them you're Christian. There's a point where it's in the back of your mind, you're thinking,
00:44:34I'm a little bit embarrassed to even say that because in their image of Christianity, they're
00:44:39seeing all of the news. They're seeing the sexual predators. They're seeing the spiritual abusers,
00:44:45all of these things. And when you say that word now, it actually doesn't mean what it used to mean
00:44:51even 20, 30 years ago. All of this is being exposed. It's coming to light. And it's, it's
00:44:56embarrassing because you don't want to use that word and brand yourself with this. But yet at the
00:45:00same time, how do you do it? I was having a, I had a conversation with a minister who has nothing
00:45:07to do with any of this that we're talking about. And I was explaining to him all, just what we talked
00:45:13about in more. And he says, I just tell people I'm a follower of Jesus. I, he said, I don't even
00:45:18as a Christian pastor, I don't even use the word Christian anymore. I just say, I'm a follower of
00:45:23Jesus. And that labels you differently than being branded in this weird world that we're in. And the
00:45:31more I thought about it, the more I'm just shocked that we as an American nation and now across the
00:45:37world have allowed Christianity to become this thing. That's not, doesn't even resemble
00:45:42Christianity so much so that it's embarrassing. Yeah. It really is something that you have to
00:45:47fight against all of the stuff. You know, in fact, I was having a conversation at work the other day
00:45:52about that, about sin being ran rapid and, uh, being it let, um, to run rapid. And I'm like,
00:46:00that's not always the case, you know, cause really what I do is I go back to the scripture
00:46:04and I use the Corinthian brother as an example. When Paul says, hand him over like, like, you know,
00:46:09so it just because people are doing it wrong, doesn't mean that it's not addressed in the Bible,
00:46:15you know? Um, and one of the things that I wanted to bring up was, uh, and I'm sure you probably are
00:46:22aware, but like the passion translation, you know, much about the passion.
00:46:27Some, I I've studied a little bit, but not in depth.
00:46:30Yeah. So I say that the passion translation is the NAR Bible and John Bevere's bait for Satan,
00:46:38bait of Satan is their handbook, you know? Uh, are you familiar with it?
00:46:44No.
00:46:45Yeah. So it just, it's really all about, uh, being what happens when you're offended and
00:46:49working through forgiveness. And so it's just like anything else in this movement. Some of it is good,
00:46:55but it begins to teach that when you're offended, you don't even know you're offended.
00:47:00Right. So it, it leaves you powerless to the authority of the church, you know? And like,
00:47:07um, it was anytime we had like a, a small exodus of people leave the church, you could almost just
00:47:13bet that we were about to do a Bible study through the bait of Satan. And it was truly all centered on
00:47:18they don't even know they're offended, you know? And it's like, man, this just robs people. Like,
00:47:25you know, like I have the Holy Spirit inside of me. I am working towards sanctification and holiness.
00:47:30Uh, I might not know I'm offended at first, but it doesn't take very long for the Lord to show me
00:47:35truth that I am offended. Like you can't just say like, uh, only the, the apostle or the leadership
00:47:40of your church can tell you you're offended because you don't think you're offended, even
00:47:44though you are offended. It's such a spiritual abuse, you know, it's a trap, but there's positives
00:47:48in it. But man, it just leaves you powerless. Like, like you can't leave a church unless it's a,
00:47:54unless it was a good leaving, you know, and you've been sent off. And it's like, that's not true.
00:47:59You know, like I'm just supposed to sit here underneath this because you think you have
00:48:03some level of authority over me? Like, you know?
00:48:06And that's why I answered the way I did on the Passion Translation. It's, as I understand it,
00:48:12this is coming from a person who has no expertise in biblical language at all and is translating
00:48:18the Bible in his own way and using some spiritual mumbo jumbo to say, God spoke to me and here's a
00:48:24Bible. That's the mentality of the people who are in this type of movement. And sadly, people will buy
00:48:31it knowing that he's not a translator. Even, I don't know. I did not read much because when I learned
00:48:37that, I'm like, yeah, I don't, uh, nothing to do with this. But I think he might've even put that
00:48:42into the, uh, preface. If I remember right, I could be wrong about that. At minimum, it's out there
00:48:48and if you study, it's, it's out there. But the fact that the movement doesn't care, it tells me
00:48:54that there's something wrong. And if you trace its roots, it goes all the way back to Branham's
00:48:59spoken word theology. We have the spoken word now. It's a new thing. It's, we, it really became
00:49:05superior to the written word, if you understand how it is. Combine that with manifest sons of God,
00:49:10you're little gods, you're speaking new words, new Bibles. It, again, it's turning into a religion
00:49:16that's not even the same as what it was to the, to the point that they've even come up with new
00:49:21Bibles that replace it. In Branhamism, his spoken word kind of replaced the Bible. Now, the new,
00:49:27the Passion Translation, there's another one too I'm trying to think of that's beautiful.
00:49:31Oh, there's the, the mirror. It's probably the mirror. I've done it,
00:49:34extreme depth studies on all this, you know, uh, which I didn't even know necessarily about all of it
00:49:43until the pastor started using it, you know, but like, like what you're saying is we've lost the
00:49:49authority, right? The standard. Uh, and once you lose your standard, who knows what's going to happen?
00:49:55And that's one of the things that bothered me the most was like, like, why don't you care about the
00:50:01word? You know, like I remember, um, well, Brian Simmons actually went to Wagner University,
00:50:09Peter Wagner's, uh, unaccredited college where he got his doctorate degree that only takes somebody
00:50:14two years to get with no previous college or biblical studies at all. So I'm like, well, that's
00:50:19a fake doctorate, right? Like I don't have a problem with something not being accredited. I do
00:50:25have a problem walking around saying you're a doctor when you're really not because that lends
00:50:29a level of authority, you know? Um, and so, cause he's not just saying that he wrote a book.
00:50:36What he's saying is he's writing the Bible, which is totally different, you know? And so I do think
00:50:42in the NAR, there is an absolute attack on the authority of the word of God, you know, like, and
00:50:49that's not for me and my household, you know, we're going to hold fast to it. And that's one of the
00:50:54hardest things. I remember making that decision. Um, I'm hearing in your words that you came,
00:50:59came through the same thing. Your family's embedded in this, all of your children's friends are
00:51:04friends of the church. When you pull them out, this is not an easy thing, right? And
00:51:09when you leave, oddly, members of the church will condemn you and they'll say he went out
00:51:14because they wanted to be part of the world and, and not even knowing and understanding
00:51:18how difficult it was for you to make that decision to take, take that first step. And
00:51:22it's a step towards truth, not towards error. So I, I sympathize with you because I know exactly,
00:51:29we still, to this day, think back to all of the turmoil that we went through whenever
00:51:34this happened. It's a difficult thing.
00:51:36Yeah, it really is, you know? And so like with the passion, um, the pastor started using
00:51:45it and I never really liked it because, you know, like I had five years of Bible college,
00:51:51like where we did Greek and Hebrew and, but he said he was a doctor and I, so I like equated
00:51:57him to the professors I seen who can literally take a Greek new Testament and, you know,
00:52:01real, real doctors, old Testament, new Testament, real ones. And, uh, so it gave me a little bit
00:52:09of comfort, but I didn't really like the Aramaic because I knew that the old Testament was Hebrew
00:52:13and the new Testament is Greek and that's not my fault. That's God's, you know, God's choice.
00:52:18Um, and once I found out that Bible gateway app took it off, that's when I started doing
00:52:23my research. And so I just found out like just about the Peter Wagner thing. So I called
00:52:30Wagner university and started asking him questions about the doctorate program. And I'm like,
00:52:34what's the name of a real doctorate? Like at all, you know? And so I took that information
00:52:38to the pastor and he's like, we're all looking to it, but I'm still going to use it. And I said,
00:52:42look, I'm not going to fight it, but I will not use it. And I never did anyway. Um, and then
00:52:47a couple of weeks from the pulpit, this is what he says. And I know all this stuff going on
00:52:52with the passion translation. If you don't want to use it, you're crazy. I mean, like
00:52:56there's no regard for any other leadership in any of these churches. Like it's not, you
00:53:02know, it's such a control. Absolutely. And the other thing I keep hearing from you is
00:53:08something that I've been thinking through in depth because I'm actually doing some
00:53:12research in this area. But when you're in this type of movement, they don't preach
00:53:17for you. They preach at you. And so the target is not to save the lost. They will
00:53:22actually preach at the lost. I remember after I left hearing an actual gospel
00:53:27sermon where they're inviting the sinners to come up, the sinners from outside in
00:53:32the world. We want everyone, we want everyone saved. Well, that's not how it is in
00:53:36these churches, man. If you do something that even just is slightly against the
00:53:42opinion of the minister, they will just harp at you from behind the pulpit. And what
00:53:47does this do to a person who's sitting there listening? The people who are
00:53:50listening, especially after they leave, they want no part of this movement, but
00:53:54they also want no part of the person because this is not a good person. They've
00:53:58learned that some of his actions aren't very good. And I, you know, I have to
00:54:04wonder when you think of just normal human interactions, take church out of it, take
00:54:10religion out of it. If you walk up to somebody and you have a difference of
00:54:14opinion and he suddenly just starts screaming at you, are you going to
00:54:18continue talking to him? But yet when you're in this mind control, you'll sit
00:54:22there Sunday after Sunday, you'll take beaten after beaten. We, whenever we left
00:54:26the Branham churches, there's this one church in particular that the men would
00:54:30gather outside and one of them said, man, we sure got a good tongue lashing this
00:54:34day, didn't we? And everybody starts laughing. And as a kid, I laughed with them
00:54:38because they were laughing. Now, as an adult, I'm thinking, why did you submit
00:54:42to this? Why would you want a verbal beating every Sunday?
00:54:45It's crazy what we, what we subject ourselves to. It's just unbelievable. It's
00:54:50like, it reminds me of when you were talking about Mike Bickle's sister and
00:54:54about that congregation. It's like, they came there that day, didn't even know that
00:54:58they were going to get involved in something that they had nothing to do. And
00:55:01they're going to, they're basically getting beat down for something. They have no,
00:55:06right. I mean, it was like exactly what you're talking about, you know, and you
00:55:11do, you just sat there Sunday after Sunday, but you keep seeing the best in
00:55:14them. You hope that, you know, like surely that's not what they mean. And, and, but
00:55:18it really is, it's, it's just crazy. And it's, you have to forgive yourself and, you
00:55:24know, like understand the grace of God and extend that. I just, it's like, why did it
00:55:28take so long to leave? You know, why did it, you know? Um, and so, I mean, we
00:55:35finally made that decision and it was, you know, it was one of the best things
00:55:39that we did. You know, we don't know if the church where I now will be, uh, our
00:55:44forever home, but we love it. Uh, we, we absolutely love it. Uh, the, cause it's no
00:55:50longer centered around one man and their gifts and their emotions, but it's really
00:55:55centered about around Christ and about servanthood. I mean, like, listen, that
00:56:03apostle did nothing. He didn't clean. He didn't move chairs, nothing. Um, our
00:56:11pastor and his pastor's wife and everybody's, uh, leadership at the church
00:56:16we're at, I mean, they're the first to take the trash out to scrub the toilets.
00:56:20And it's just like, it's just so refreshing to see an atmosphere of humility,
00:56:24right. Where no one is really, it's not perfect, but it just the servanthood
00:56:28attitude of like seeing, you know, Jesus in it all is just so refreshing. You
00:56:35know, um, it really is, you know, if you could go back in time to whenever you was
00:56:42in this and before you came to realize that it was a cult, but to give yourself
00:56:47some encouragement of how difficult times were about to be, what would you, what
00:56:51advice would you give yourself?
00:56:52Well, I mean, honestly it would be get out as fast as you can. It, you know, it
00:56:59really would be that it would be when we first started going there. And like I said,
00:57:03we had known this church for a couple of years. Um, the pastor used to say these
00:57:08like real bold statements that need to be thought out because if they're not
00:57:12thought out, they were kind of offensive. Right. And it was always, you know, the
00:57:16local church is not for the unbeliever. And, uh, I'm like, I understand what you're
00:57:23saying, but no one else does. Like, and so I was just talking to him, right? Like
00:57:28one, one moment after service, just talking, going, I would never have said that
00:57:33from the pulpit thinking it was friendly. Oh no, verbally attacked right there. And
00:57:39then after literally ridiculing me, telling me I was arrogant said, now you have a
00:57:44choice not to be offended. And I just, in that moment, if I could have said we are
00:57:48out, I would have saved, saved all the heartbreak, you know, um, it would be get
00:57:55out, honestly, get out.
00:57:57Yeah. I grew up, I spent a lot of time in the South and I'm trying to, I'm the
00:58:02reason I keep laughing. I know that you're looking at me and wondering why is he
00:58:05laughing? I'm picturing that same scenario, take away the church, take away the
00:58:10religion and do this down in Georgia, walk up to somebody and treat them like
00:58:15this guy just treated you down in Georgia. You'll get a good beaten by some of the
00:58:19good old boys. They will not put up with it. And yet I know some of those same
00:58:24people put them into a church where they're under the spiritual abuse, let
00:58:28them be abused every Sunday under the mind control. And they sit there and put up
00:58:32with it. I'm not advocating for fistfights or anything like this, but I'm
00:58:35saying that if you really understand that you're under such a level of
00:58:40control that you'll submit to a verbal beating, that's what this is, a verbal
00:58:44beating. I, I can't, I just can't imagine staying. So I'm like you get out as fast
00:58:49as you can.
00:58:50Yeah, I know. Really it is. Like I had a question for you. So like, cause I, I
00:58:53thought I'm like, can people really be this manipulative? Cause that's not how I
00:58:57am. Right. Like, I don't think like that at all. So I'm like, were they taught or is
00:59:02this something that like, they're actually thinking about how to control people? Like, I do
00:59:06think that there are some people who really think about how can I control
00:59:10everybody, you know? But like one of the ways that we never, we were controlled
00:59:16was any meeting that we really had was like 15 minutes before the service started
00:59:21and you couldn't get anything done, you know? And it was like periodic and it was
00:59:25only with issues. And I'm like, was that how it was with you guys? Like, you know,
00:59:30it's a complex thought and not one that we can do in the five or 10 minutes
00:59:36that's left. I started a new series with a lady. Um, it's going to come out. I
00:59:42probably, I think before this one, but we're studying the mental effects of what
00:59:48happened with the youth and, um, youth with a mission, YWAM. And one of the
00:59:55thoughts is the manipulation. How, how do you get this manipulation? I know people who
00:59:59were very close to me, who were manipulators. And yet I knew some of the
01:00:04same people were very, very good people. How do you do this? How do you, how can
01:00:09you be a good person and a bad person at the same time? That's a conversation Bob
01:00:12Scott and I often have. There are studies and what she mentioned it first, and I
01:00:18had forgotten about this study, but in, um, I think it was, it might've been
01:00:23Harvard. They did this scenario where they brought in just average people and had
01:00:28them run a, a prison as an experiment to see how people reacted. And within the
01:00:33course of just, it wasn't long. It was just a few hours. They were just brutal to
01:00:39the other people who were in the prison ward. Right. And normal people off the
01:00:43streets, you can read the study. It's, uh, I'll try to actually, I want to do a
01:00:47whole podcast on it. So I'll, I'll put something up, but an average human person who
01:00:53has a tendency towards anger, towards control, a, especially if you have
01:00:58narcissistic personality disorder, if you have any of these negative personality
01:01:02traits and you're given unlimited authority and control without boundaries and
01:01:10without any sort of accountability, these types of people will spiral out of control.
01:01:15If you give the same people boundaries and accountability, and there's an equal
01:01:21board where they're watching you and they're making sure you don't spiral out
01:01:24of control, people like this can really thrive and survive and in an environment.
01:01:29The problem is that this movement, because of the way the framework was laid,
01:01:33there is no accountability. And so you, you take really good people. Bob Scott will
01:01:39say Mike Bickle is one of the best friends he ever had. Great person. And he, he just
01:01:44went down this pathway. I know that this offends a lot of people, but I'll say, I
01:01:49probably believe him because Mike Bickle did not have the accountability that
01:01:54restrained him from becoming a bad person. And yes, he had this evil in his head
01:02:00all along, but everybody has something in their head all along. What he had is
01:02:04levels worse than other people. Don't get me wrong. But given the same
01:02:08accountability, even though he had this thing in his head and if it was addressed
01:02:13quickly, maybe he needed some counseling initially. Maybe if this thing were exposed
01:02:19immediately, maybe he could have gotten help and then it never would have grew
01:02:23into what it did. So good people can do bad things. That's a theme that Bob Scott
01:02:28uses, but I qualify that with good people can do bad things if they don't have
01:02:33proper accountability and boundaries.
01:02:36Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. It is definitely deep because it's just
01:02:41like, you know, when you sit back and you think about things and you're like, you
01:02:45know, was the, uh, was he, was, were they taught that we're going to communicate by
01:02:50not communicating with the congregation? You know, like, is that what CF and I
01:02:55taught, you know, like, or is that just something he, like these people pick up on
01:03:00their own, you know? And it was just like, I remember thinking, so we're not going to
01:03:05tell the congregation. We just had a leadership change and eldership. Well, no,
01:03:09well, I just confuses me, you know what I mean? Like, I just, I don't, I don't get
01:03:14it. And that was just one of the things is like, were they really, is, did they
01:03:18really think like that, you know? And, you know, one of the things I think I'm
01:03:23going to take away from talking to you is I'm going to try to think about, you
01:03:27know, the positives that we did have, you know, because as much as, I mean, listen,
01:03:32I will tell you right now, I think that that, uh, uh, pastor disqualified
01:03:37himself from the ministry, uh, for, because obviously I know a lot more than,
01:03:42you know, than I would care to share, um, because it's really the NAR that is
01:03:47dangerous and what it produces and the people that it puts into power. But, um,
01:03:52he also did come to every one of the births of my children, you know? Uh, I'm
01:03:57sure he showed up to funerals, you know? Uh, I'm sure there was a lot of times. So,
01:04:03you know, I think I'm going to try to hang on to that because, you know,
01:04:07that's one of the struggles that we have is to, you know, cause I, it's not
01:04:12going to be okay if I spend the rest of my life and not forgive him like that,
01:04:16that's anti kingdom. So like, I have to work that out, you know? And so that's
01:04:22one of the things that I really appreciate you saying.
01:04:25Well, it's a lot to work out and it's something that is, it's not easy. I, I can
01:04:29say from experience, it's not easy, but on the other side, you're better for it if
01:04:34you can go through the trouble of doing it. So thank you so much for doing this.
01:04:39Yeah, no, I really appreciate it. And like I said, uh, you've helped a lot of
01:04:42people. It was one quick thing. I was talking to one of my best friends who got
01:04:47saved together and I was like, have you heard about leaving the message? And he's
01:04:50like, Oh, John, of course he's like, Oh yeah, yeah. I, uh, I've listened to John
01:04:54for about two years, you know? And I'm like, Oh man, you didn't even tell me that. So
01:04:58it's just, yeah, I think your influence is a lot maybe bigger than you might
01:05:03realize. And, you know, and so great job. And we appreciate it a lot because
01:05:07there's a lot of us who, uh, are leaving places like this, you know?
01:05:12Well, I'm glad it's a help and I'm, I'm glad that you shared your story. There are a
01:05:17lot of people who are in similar situations that I think will be helped by, by what
01:05:21you're sharing. So this has been really fun. Thank you for, thank you again for doing
01:05:26it. Yeah, you too, John. I appreciate it a lot. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and
01:05:29you want more information or to share your story, you can check us out on the
01:05:33web. You can find us at william-branham.org. For more about the dark side of the new
01:05:37apostolic reformation, you can read weaponized religion from Christian
01:05:41identity to the NAR available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
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