Leaving Hyper Charismania: Mystika’s Journey Back to Biblical Truth | Podcast Episode 670 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John invites Mystika to revisit her journey out of the charismatic movement and explain the difficult process of unraveling works-based teachings, spiritual performance, deliverance practices, prophetic expectations, financial pressure, and loaded religious language. Mystika describes how constant demands for greater effort left her feeling that she could never pray, give, serve, or seek spiritual experiences enough.  John and Mystika also discuss adjusting to calmer church environments, recognizing doctrines hidden behind specialized language, losing relationships after changing beliefs, and reconsidering how Christians should respond to false teaching. Mystika shares the lessons she has learned about biblical interpretation, humility, healthy church leadership, Christian community, and rebuilding trust after leaving a controlling religious environment.  00:00 Introduction 00:31 Introducing Mystica Silverberg & Life After Leaving Hyper-Charismatic Churches 02:24 Escaping Works-Righteousness and Performance-Based Faith 09:18 Mystica's Spiritual Journey Since the First Interview 13:52 From Exposing False Teachers to Sharing the Gospel 20:07 Dangerous Doctrines and Processing End Times Beliefs 22:13 The Most Harmful Teachings Mystica Experienced 27:36 Leaving Loaded Language and Cult Vocabulary Behind 36:08 Psychological Effects of Hyper-Charismatic Teaching 40:21 How Destructive Churches Draw People In 47:00 Life After Leaving: Loss, Isolation, and Finding Peace 51:12 Advice for Those Leaving Controlling Religious Movements 52:36 Closing Remarks  ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.

00:42And with me, I have Mystica Silverberg, former member of the charismatic movement.

00:46Mystica, it's good to have you back and to talk about your journey after having left all of this weirdness.

00:52I remember when our first podcast came out, I was getting all kinds of emails.

00:56Now, some of them I shared with you, but people were just so interested to hear more about your story.

01:00And I told you we would have to do it again.

01:03It's just taken way too long to do it.

01:05So thank you for coming back.

01:06Maybe if you could just take a moment for those who don't know you and reintroduce yourself.

01:11Thank you so much for having me.

01:13And it has been a while, but I want to try to make a point to do this at least

01:19once a year to share some of this craziness.

01:23Well, my name is Mystica.

01:25I am from upstate New York.

01:27I am a mom and a licensed clinical social worker, and I was part of the hypercharismania circus and out

01:39of it and lived to tell the tale.

01:42And there's a lot of tales to tell from people who have left.

01:45I have people who are helping me deprogram as they help themselves deprogram on the show, but they talk through

01:52their issues.

01:53And it was difficult being in this thing, but after you leave, it's even more difficult to find your way

01:59because we were in this weird thing that claimed it had all of the answers.

02:03And so you never really thought about the solutions to those answers.

02:06You never thought about the solutions that you needed to have.

02:09And then suddenly we woke up and realized, wait, none of their answers are quite right.

02:13And so we had to figure it out ourselves.

02:15Well, after you leave, you realize that, wait a minute, the world is filled with questions.

02:19How do I answer them all?

02:20Well, and anyway, I'm on the same journey myself.

02:24It's never ending.

02:26There's a lot of unraveling that has to happen.

02:29So in your email, you were talking about leaving the works righteous faith and the way that we were so

02:36filled with works righteous doctrines.

02:40I never really thought about that when I was in the movement.

02:43And interestingly, I had read the Bible when I was in the movement, I was reading it, and I would

02:48come across the works righteous passages.

02:51And the frame of reference that we had was so different.

02:54I was always working for my salvation and didn't even know it.

02:59And the more I worked, the harder I had to work some more.

03:04And there was no aha moment where, like, I had arrived.

03:08It was always something more I had to do, something better I had to do.

03:13I had to do things longer, whether it even be spend time with the Lord, which isn't a bad thing.

03:20But it was like, even that wasn't right.

03:24I had to do that for a more amount of times to produce X, Y, and Z, to get something

03:30to happen.

03:32And I was so caught up in that that I didn't realize that's what I was doing.

03:37See, they twisted it a little bit for us.

03:39It was still works righteous faith, but instead of saying that by doing these works, you will become righteous,

03:45they actually would say that that's wrong, you shouldn't be like that, which that part I can agree with.

03:50But what they instead did was they would say, if you do these works, you're going to hell.

03:55So it became the opposite of works righteous, but in the same way.

03:59They're teaching the same thing.

04:01In other words, you save yourself by the works you do, essentially.

04:04And we had so many different rules.

04:07I remember the first time I went bowling.

04:09This is a big deal for me.

04:11And everybody else is like, wait a minute, that's just bowling.

04:14You know, what is it?

04:15But we were not allowed to go bowling.

04:17And I went, the first time I went, I beat everybody with me.

04:21And they're looking at me, scratching their head, thinking, how did you do that?

04:25You've never done this before.

04:26And I said, I just rolled the ball down and I hit the pins.

04:29It's pretty easy, right?

04:30I think I got a 180 or 200, something like this.

04:34And anyway, for me, it was this new experience.

04:37I've never had anything like it.

04:39And to everybody who was with me, it was second nature to them.

04:44They grew up doing things that we weren't allowed to do.

04:48And that's part of the works righteous faith that we were in.

04:51We had these boundaries of things we could and could not do.

04:54And they were directly tied to our salvation.

04:58You know, when you are a person that actually desires to love God and be part of his family

05:05and be part of that whole thing, of course, you want to do everything that you can that's

05:11within your power to be the best Christian you can be.

05:15And you don't want God mad at you.

05:17And you don't want to not get something because you didn't do enough.

05:21So there's no time to think.

05:23And of course, they don't want you to think rationally.

05:26They don't want you to think biblically.

05:28They want you to think emotionally.

05:30And that's exactly how they ran me.

05:33And I wasn't working for God.

05:35That's the whole, that's the irony of all of this.

05:38I was working for them, the leaders.

05:41The more that I did, the more work they gave me because essentially I was doing their work.

05:51And of course, they'd always equate that to I was doing it for God.

05:55Even when it came to tithing and giving, I was essentially giving it to them, but they

06:01convinced me I was giving it to God.

06:04I could do a whole, in fact, I probably have done a whole podcast on the tithing thing.

06:08It just, it blows my mind whenever I hear the way that they teach it.

06:11You're giving it to God, but I'm driving a Cadillac.

06:14And I, we had this one, we went to this one church and we didn't go very long, but they

06:21were, they were teaching us the grace passages, which is something that was almost eliminated

06:26and excluded in what I grew up in.

06:28And so I'm, I'm all excited.

06:30They're teaching grace and all I've heard is works.

06:32And they said, we're living under the new covenant.

06:34We're no longer under the old covenant law.

06:36And everything they said was right for maybe six of the sermons.

06:40And then it was either the sixth or the seventh.

06:43I said, no, now I'm going to preach on something that's going to make everybody just a little

06:47bit anxious.

06:48We're going to preach about tithe.

06:50And he went down the path of telling us that we had to go back under the old covenant to

06:55give our money.

06:56And then we're out of it again.

06:57And I'm, I'm scratching my head thinking, what on earth were they doing and thinking?

07:02And on the way out, I left in the middle of the sermon, if you call it a sermon.

07:06And I picked up the, the, the financial documentation, which they had freely available.

07:12And I, I saw where they had overexpended in one of the new ventures they were building

07:17and they needed the money for it.

07:18So essentially I was in the midst of a money drive and the whole thing, it's just, it's,

07:24it's a weird business because your main customer are people who are going to give it to you

07:28out of their pocket.

07:29And what other businesses like this?

07:32Which is exactly why I started to figure out, you know, every additional event that they

07:38would have, that would be beyond the four or five hours of church on Sunday, because

07:43of course you have to stay until the Holy Spirit is done.

07:47You can't leave before that.

07:49It doesn't matter if it's eight hours, however long the Holy Spirit wants to go.

07:54So even beyond that, it would be now we're doing this prophetic class and that prophetic

08:00class and a class on a deliverance and a class to learn what this demon is and that demon

08:07is.

08:07And, you know, if you didn't, if I didn't dare go because I was a mom and might have to

08:15work or might have to take care of the kids, I was reprimanded.

08:20Why?

08:21Because if I wasn't a body that was there, you know, I wasn't giving them more money.

08:27I wasn't paying their registration fee for that class and I wasn't showing the internet

08:34that a whole bunch of people were here so that you could get more people to come.

08:38You know, I was just being used to a marketing tool most of the time, you know, and look,

08:46God doesn't need our money.

08:49He doesn't.

08:51It's not wrong to give, but it is wrong to tell me that if I don't give, then God can't

08:59do something and that I'm not giving something to God.

09:04I'm giving it to you.

09:05Just admit that I'm giving it to you and you want to do some things that are for the body

09:10of Christ.

09:10Okay, but don't tell me I'm giving it to God or not giving it to God.

09:15You know, that's just a form of mind control.

09:17Absolutely.

09:19So when we had our first conversation, you were early in the midst of beginning the journey

09:25and now some time has passed.

09:28I'm curious to know how much your belief set has changed since our first conversation and

09:33this conversation.

09:34Would you say it's the same or would you say you have progressed in one way or another?

09:38What is different in your belief set?

09:41Nothing.

09:42Nothing is different in my belief set.

09:44But glory be to God, when this unraveled for me, meaning the lies of the hyper charismatic

09:52church, it came unraveled very quickly.

09:57And I thank God for that.

09:59And I think that's because I was rooted in truth, because I pursued truth.

10:05And I had always had, and I mentioned this, I think in our last interview, this running

10:11list of questions that I had that never really added up, but no one ever had the answer to,

10:17or I just didn't have the courage to ask them.

10:20And there were always things that made me go, hmm, things that I went to sleep at night going,

10:26I don't understand.

10:28Why would God let, for example, let someone go on after they've given their lives to him

10:35and they're born again?

10:36Why would he go on allowing them to flop around like a fish on the floor or whatever serpent

10:44they were at the time, making all these noises, being in agony, you know, doing all these

10:51things that I'll spare the details of?

10:54Why would God allow that?

10:57What?

10:58This just doesn't make sense to me.

11:00You know, I thought that we were in him.

11:03I thought we were taken from the, we were translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom

11:09of light, into the kingdom of his son.

11:11Why is this stuff happening?

11:14And I never would get the answer that made sense.

11:19And so I think the fact that I never fully gave myself over to these beliefs and always

11:26had questions and stayed an individual in Christ is I honestly, and people's prayers,

11:33I think is really what saved me.

11:35So yeah, my belief system is the same.

11:39I'm Bible focused.

11:42I've learned how to exegete scripture instead of eisegete scripture.

11:49So that's something that I've learned, a skill I've learned how to do in my real new church.

11:57But yeah, my beliefs haven't changed.

12:00But when I first talked to you, you know, I was really gung-ho about exposing these people.

12:07I mean, I thought about it all the time.

12:12I wanted to expose these people.

12:14I wanted to show up at their churches and stand out.

12:20I would picture myself standing out in the parking lot telling people, don't go in there.

12:25You don't understand what they're doing in there.

12:27You don't understand.

12:28And have truth for them and give them something.

12:31You know, I had all these ideas about how I wanted to help other people come out of this

12:39and how I wanted to expose them for what they were.

12:42And I don't know if it is my lack of courage or if it was God's hand.

12:48But I've felt not to do these things other than to do these interviews because I'm really not sure why,

12:58John.

12:59The more that I read scripture and the more that I understand scripture, the more that I see,

13:05and I don't know if this is right, that people in the Bible didn't set out to expose false teachers.

13:13They set out to share the truth and to share the good news.

13:18People got in the way and then they were handled.

13:23So if I'm out, let's say, on the street and I'm sharing the gospel and someone comes up with a

13:28false message,

13:29then yes, I should expose them.

13:31But I've really questioned this spending all this time and energy to go back and expose these places that I

13:38was a part of.

13:39So that's what I've really changed in my belief.

13:43It's just how to deal with the mess that I was in.

13:47And I don't know that I've arrived at the right answer, but I know I have my peace.

13:52Well, I think you've arrived at a healthy answer.

13:54So whenever I was in a cult, there were times whenever we were allowed to watch television and movies.

14:02For a large majority of my life, I was not.

14:05But I can remember watching shows like, what's a good example?

14:09Airplane.

14:09In the airplane movie, right before they get in the plane, they're walking through the airport and there, the guy

14:14is standing there with the signs, praise Jesus.

14:18I can't remember what it said.

14:19It was some weird cult.

14:20And you could tell everybody's looking at them like they're freaks because they're out of place.

14:25They're out of character.

14:26They're trying to promote their religion.

14:29Once I left an actual cult and started thinking about it, my first inclination was to do exactly what you

14:35said.

14:36Everybody needs to get out of this.

14:37I need to stand on the street corner with a sign.

14:40In fact, I'll tell one of my secrets.

14:43I almost purchased a row of signs here and locally that was going to expose the whole thing.

14:50And interestingly, the cult did it for me.

14:53They purchased all of these signs and they created the most obnoxiously cult-identifying signs possible.

15:02Like, how will you be judged is one of the signs instead of come to Jesus.

15:06So you read it and you think, well, that's a cult.

15:09So I didn't even have to do it.

15:10But that was my first inclination.

15:13But once I stopped and thought about it, my personality is not a confrontational personality.

15:19I just, I can't do it.

15:21But more to the point, if you do the same thing, if you are out of place, you're out of

15:27character, you go to their property with a sign, whatever it is, you're actually doing the same thing as that

15:32guy in the airplane movie.

15:33You're out of character.

15:34Everybody's going to, they're not even going to listen to you.

15:36But what I have learned over time is, instead, because of the way mind control works, it would not have

15:43helped anyway.

15:44They would have still been trapped.

15:46They would have just discounted anything that I said.

15:50Instead, I prefer to be a resource to people who have the question before they make the escape.

15:57Because usually it builds up to this question internally, hey, am I in a cult?

16:01Now I've got the information.

16:02They can type it in Google.

16:03They can go find it.

16:04And I think that's a healthier way to behave.

16:09Now there is a place for people who are doing this type of apologetics that go after people.

16:15But I will say that even locally, we have some people that really target the individuals.

16:20And they'll go on to the bridges or downtown.

16:23And it's not really that effective because they're out of place.

16:27They're not doing it in a way that really is a good strategy, in my opinion.

16:33Yeah, I agree.

16:34And I know there'll be people that might hear me say this, you know, because I've had it happen already,

16:40you know, who get angry, who are part of, what do they call it, discernment ministries?

16:48That's the newest thing.

16:50I mean, John, I mean, John, I don't see that in the Bible.

16:53Again, I am not against exposing false teachers.

16:56But to call it a ministry and set out for that to be your daily, all-day thing when we're

17:03called to share the good news, I just, biblically, I don't see the standard for that.

17:08I don't see that spelled out in scripture.

17:11And what I have noticed since the last time we talked, these places that consider themselves, and some of them

17:17are my friends.

17:18I love them.

17:19And I see them doing this, what they call discernment ministry.

17:26I see not good things happening to them, to their mental health, to their ministries, to, I see them really

17:35wearing themselves out and not being very happy people that have peace.

17:41And, you know, I'm a fighter.

17:44I can say I have been a confrontational person, personality-wise.

17:49But the more rooted in Christ I become, the more I understand that, kind of like what you're saying, there's

17:57an order.

17:58There's a better way.

18:00We're always supposed to walk in humility.

18:02The Beatitudes tell us it's the humble and the meat that shall see God, not the ones that are yelling

18:07and screaming at people.

18:09And I agree with you.

18:11I think God's sovereign will will be done.

18:15It just will.

18:17And if he wants something to happen, he's going to, the door will be opened for it to happen.

18:24And so what I see is all these little opportunities that I would never imagine happening that happen where there

18:33is an opportunity for me to share to somebody.

18:36Maybe someone that's still in one of those cults I was in or maybe someone that's thinking about going in

18:41and they'll, they'll contact me.

18:43I don't have to look for them at all.

18:47And it'll still happen, you know.

18:50But, so that's really the only thing that I've put a lot of time.

18:55Like, I don't want to do this wrong, you know.

18:57And these places, there'll be a lot of warfare that comes with doing that, you know.

19:04So, it's been a real hard pill to swallow because I really wanted to go after them with everything that

19:11I had.

19:13There's one in particular that I was only a part of for a short while.

19:16I didn't even mention it to you the last time we talked.

19:19And they're a full preterist.

19:25Within a half an hour from me, not far away, I know a couple people that are in it.

19:30They don't even advertise it on their website.

19:34Yet, they believe that everything in the Bible already took place.

19:39We're just walking in it.

19:41There's no other return of Jesus.

19:44He's already returned the second time.

19:45This is a really big deal.

19:48And they don't even put it on their website.

19:50And most people don't even have any idea.

19:54And that's the one that I really wanted to share about.

19:58I'm just waiting for God to open a door to that.

20:04Because that one's super dangerous.

20:07You know, whenever I was in the mindset that the world is going to end at any moment,

20:12the rapture is coming, and this small group of people is going to escape in the rapture

20:17while all other Christians are going to burn on the earth.

20:20I was in that doomsday mindset.

20:22And I thought everybody was.

20:24And it took me a long time to process that.

20:28One of the first churches that we went to after leaving was a denominational church.

20:32But they had a plurality of elders.

20:35And I was asking somebody about that because it really bothered me.

20:38They weren't preaching with the same urgency that I had in the cult.

20:42And yet the sermon was very similar.

20:44They just didn't.

20:45I don't think they believed in the pre-tribulation rapture.

20:47But it was very, very similar to what I had experienced.

20:51Anyway, I went to one of the elders and I talked about it.

20:53And he was the polar opposite opinion of the pastor.

20:57And I was scratching my head thinking, how can that be?

21:00Can't you?

21:00You should be aligned in this, right?

21:02This is important and had lunch with a third and a fourth.

21:07And apparently in the church, there were four different views on the way that you read revelation from preterism to

21:14literalism.

21:16And I'm sitting here thinking, how can this be?

21:18How can you be?

21:19How can you be aligned in this?

21:21And the end result was they were not aligned.

21:25But yet they believed that it was not as important to their salvation as hearing the gospel, believing in Jesus

21:35Christ, etc.

21:36So I went away with that.

21:37I started attending different churches and different belief sets.

21:40And I found that there's just such a wide variety of people that believe so many different things.

21:45And yet, at the same time, there are nuances in those beliefs that make them unhealthy.

21:51And like you said, some of them are actually dangerous.

21:53What we had, our belief on the end times was actually really dangerous.

21:57Our belief on revelation was.

21:59What was that like for you?

22:01Whenever, so you were in Charismania, you left, and now you've had a time to think about it.

22:07What would you say would be the most, what's the word, the most unhealthy doctrine that you left behind?

22:15That is a great question, John.

22:18So, and I should have said this in the beginning when you asked me, you know, kind of an overview.

22:24I went from 11 years in a prosperity gospel church.

22:30Then I got into a couple of these really odd, like the one I'm mentioning, full preterism.

22:38Then there was another one that I couldn't even tell you what they believe.

22:41It's so odd.

22:43And I can tell you that the leader who thought she was a prophetess, you know, I'll never forget this,

22:50started to, well, she didn't come up off the ground.

22:54But she was making us believe that she had sort of risen up off of, and her people, her little

23:01hussy of women that followed her around, had to kind of help her come down, you know, after that.

23:08I don't even know what you call this stuff.

23:10We normal people call it levitation.

23:13Yeah.

23:14I want to say that, but yet she really wasn't, but I think she believed she was.

23:19But anyways, and then I got into the completely, complete circus is what I always resort to calling it, of

23:32hypercharismania, where I got into full-on deliverance ministry.

23:37And they are, oh, what do you call it?

23:40And they believe they're the most elite church going on, and dominionism, and all of that mess.

23:47Okay.

23:47I'm starting to forget some of the terms as it goes on.

23:50There's so many of them.

23:51But dominionism, thinking that we have to go take dominion, and seven mountain mandate, all of that I was in.

23:58So, and I really, truly, in looking back, believe that the prosperity church really primed me to get into everything

24:07else.

24:08Of all these other churches, they had all these other slants from all these crazy, what do you even call

24:15them, that took place over time?

24:17God's generals.

24:19God's generals.

24:20I could not think of that.

24:22And these people that had so much charisma that they created these movements, right?

24:27And these movements over time have now caused churches to have these, what I call, slants to them.

24:35And anyways, I would have to say that the one that I wasn't in that long, and the one that

24:42taught full preterism, was the most heartbreaking to me.

24:46I actually still have the messages to this day, where I said to the apostle, you're telling me that Jesus

24:54already came back?

24:56So, what are we doing?

24:57What do we have to look forward to?

25:00I was heartbroken, and I was beginning to believe it, because he had all the scriptures to back it up.

25:06Of course, a master eisegeter, right?

25:10And I was heartbroken.

25:13I was shaking.

25:14I was like, oh my gosh, that was really, really traumatic for me.

25:20But then, of course, I'd say the last one was really dangerous, too, because I got into five years of

25:27deliverance ministry that I was doing, like, six, seven days a week, four hours a day.

25:35That really took a toll on my entire life.

25:41So, that was dangerous in other ways.

25:44One was more just heartbreaking.

25:46Like, what am I, what is this all for?

25:49What do we have to look forward to?

25:52Where are we going?

25:54You know, where the other one was more just exhausting and tiring, and I could never do enough.

26:00So, they were dangerous, but in different ways.

26:03And then, the prosperity church was dangerous, too, because they taught me, you know, that if I don't give to

26:09God, if I don't give him my money, what kind of person am I?

26:13What kind of Christian am I?

26:14And, of course, they were, oh my gosh, million-dollar facility, and they always had to make it even better.

26:23Yeah.

26:23No, no, no, no, no, the technology isn't quite good enough.

26:26We can't not have this or that.

26:29We need you to go all in, they'd call it.

26:32All in campaigns.

26:33Give us everything you got.

26:35Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

26:43reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

26:48You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

26:55On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

27:03John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

27:09You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

27:16If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

27:22top.

27:23And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

27:28watching.

27:29On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

27:34I was thinking as you were talking, the first conversation we had together was so different than this one now,

27:41in a weird way that I'm probably going to embarrass myself because I had the same issue.

27:47Whenever I was in the group that I was in, we had our own loaded language.

27:51We said things that if you were outside of the group, you had no idea what it meant.

27:54Even if you're a Christian, you had no idea what it meant.

27:57Right.

27:57So, I left that, I started doing this thing where I'm talking to many other people.

28:02I started it as a podcast, and people come every Friday, and they share their stories.

28:06And you can usually tell the ones who are like fresh out, their language, I don't understand half of the

28:12things they say.

28:13Because they're talking about all of these different, you know, different weird things.

28:18I would say things to you, and you made the funniest jokes.

28:21I think you went on to make comic strips about some of the things that I said, because they were

28:26so bizarre.

28:27Oh, remember I told you we wore dog tags.

28:31Yes.

28:32Yeah.

28:33Yeah, I remember.

28:34So, I was thinking as you were talking, I'm hearing less of the loaded language.

28:38So, I'm going to let you embarrass yourself now, as much as I just did.

28:43Whenever you left this thing, and you had this loaded language, there's a point in time, at least for me,

28:49when I suddenly realized, wait a minute.

28:51I'm saying something that there's no way that this person understands what I'm saying.

28:55Did that thought ever hit you?

28:57Did you ever feel like, I really need to change my vocabulary?

29:00My gosh.

29:01So many times.

29:02I'm like, they're going to have no idea.

29:05Actually, it would happen where I would have conversations with churches that were more real and normal, and people in

29:14those places that I was kind of, because I was searching of where to go.

29:18And I would say things, and they would, using this, what you're calling loaded language, and they would look at

29:24me like I was crazy.

29:26And I'd go, no, you don't understand.

29:28This didn't happen like in another country.

29:31This happened 10 minutes from here.

29:3410 minutes.

29:35Do you think it's that foreign?

29:37It's not.

29:39You know?

29:40And I, yes, all the time that happened.

29:43And I was like, okay, I'm starting to sound crazy.

29:48And I'd be like, trust me, I'm not crazy.

29:51Explaining to people, I'm really not.

29:53I just really love God, and I really wanted the truth.

29:57And these people took me under their wing, and they acted like mentors and teachers, and they acted like I

30:04was family.

30:05And, you know, please don't think I'm crazy.

30:08I just, it does sound crazy.

30:11I remember the first time it hit me, we had these things that we called them small group.

30:16I guess most churches have something similar.

30:18They have different names.

30:19But we're sitting around, and everybody's going around, each person talking, you know, individually.

30:23And it came to be my turn.

30:25And I looked at their faces, and I could tell, wait a minute, these people have no clue what I'm

30:29talking about.

30:30And then the next question, which I'm going to ask you, once I realized that I had the loaded language,

30:36and I realized they had no clue what I was talking about, I connected those dots.

30:41We had loaded language, and that was tied to a doctrine.

30:43And that doctrine may have been tied to chains of doctrine.

30:47And I found myself going down the path of, okay, I just use a phrase, they have no idea what

30:53it was.

30:54It meant this doctrine, they have no idea what it was.

30:57Is it in the Bible?

30:58Nine times out of ten, it wasn't.

31:00And you had to have all these other doctrines to support it.

31:04What was that like for you?

31:05Did you have the similar thing happen to you?

31:08Oh, yes.

31:08Yes, again, all the time.

31:10And I was always trying to think of like, okay, how do I put this in simpler terms for people

31:16so they'll know and understand what I've been through?

31:19And it's like, again, it was so foreign to them because there'd be one church that was only ten minutes

31:28from another one, and they have never heard the likes of some of these things they've been doing, talking about

31:32you have to wear dog tags, and we've got to take over the seven mountains in order to get to

31:38this point.

31:39You know, in order for Jesus to return, we have to usher them in, and we've got to change atmospheres,

31:44you know, we have to decree and declare things, and all of this stuff.

31:48And they're like, and I'm like, okay, well, yeah, let me try to show you in the Bible.

31:54And, yeah, I can't do that.

31:57I don't know.

31:59Let's get out.

32:00They gave us all these papers.

32:02Let me put it in there, and these books.

32:04I have them.

32:05It's really in there.

32:08But it's so hard to keep track of, John, which is why I have so much respect for you and

32:14the historical way you have broke this down over the years, because you're right.

32:19This language comes from doctrines that have developed over time.

32:22Some of them overlap.

32:24Some of them don't.

32:26And just trying to keep track of that all, it's just mind-boggling.

32:32And now in talking to you, I'm realizing I have finally forgotten some of those terms.

32:38And I'm actually glad.

32:39I'm struggling because I want to say them to make my point.

32:42But my brain has let them go, you know.

32:46There's no such talk.

32:48And I just finally became a member of my local church.

32:54And they preach the real gospel.

32:57And they know nothing about Seven Mountain Mandate or decrees and declarations and all of that.

33:05No, none of that.

33:07And it's like I'm forgetting these terms because they don't exist in my world anymore.

33:14It's just not biblical.

33:16And for the record, I just want to make this clear for the record, I swore to myself I was

33:21not going to mention your dog tag.

33:23So if that church finds out that you wore dog tags, it wasn't me.

33:28I've told my testimony.

33:29I actually, when I became a member, which was just a few weeks ago, because I was supposed to become

33:35a member before that and I shied away.

33:39You know what happened?

33:41And I'm okay saying this because I said it to them as well.

33:46Someone new came in.

33:48And this is a perfect example that I want your audience to keep in mind.

33:51When outsiders come into leadership to a new church and you don't know everything as far as what their doctrine

34:02is,

34:03you're not positive of their doctrine and all the different ones they've been exposed to, it can leak out.

34:11And next thing you know, you're singing songs that are a little off.

34:15There's little things being said here and there in sermons that are a little off.

34:22And no one quite catches it because it's mostly good.

34:26It's mostly truth.

34:28And I think that's why the Bible talks in Galatians.

34:31I think Galatians 3, about a little leaven gets into the whole loaf.

34:35And so that happened.

34:37I was almost ready to become a member.

34:39And someone said just a couple little odd things that were just a little off.

34:47And I freaked out.

34:49I was like, oh no, it's going to happen again, you know.

34:53And so anyways, come find out, John, no church is perfect.

34:58Newsflash, right?

35:00And if it has good leadership, this stuff is going to get caught and dealt with.

35:05It's not always perfect.

35:06And so I became a member and I said to the pastor, when I become a member, I don't just

35:12want to come up there and say yes, because they ask you questions to make sure of what

35:19your beliefs are before the whole congregation, as they should, right?

35:23And so they asked me these questions and I said, can I also share my testimony a little

35:28bit while I'm up there?

35:29I just need a few minutes.

35:30Well, 11 minutes later, I got a lot of it out and I shared and I said some of the

35:38things.

35:39So they're fully aware.

35:43I've been transparent about what I've been through.

35:45And that's usually the best way.

35:47If you're transparent, people connect with you because you're more genuine to them.

35:51I've had people come up to me and I had people come up to me after that service and say,

35:55thank you so much for sharing that because I learned something from what you said or I've

36:01had similar things happen and it gives me the courage to talk about it a little bit.

36:06So they pretty much know the craziness I went through.

36:10So besides the dog tags, whenever you got involved with these movements, there are ways that it

36:18changes the brain.

36:19And you do things and say things that you wouldn't ordinarily do or say.

36:24And then after you leave, you suddenly stop and realize that, wait a minute, what they did

36:29to me, that was unethical, what they did to my head.

36:33Can you name anything specifically that you became accustomed to while you're in it and

36:39then realize later that before I joined this thing, that would have really alarmed me to

36:44have done or said this thing?

36:45I was really affected and I won't say, I guess, no, I was not, I was not alarmed.

36:52I wouldn't have been alarmed by it, but it was really hard for me to wrap my head around,

36:56you know, you have to sit with God this amount of times in order to take these trips to heaven

37:03and, you know, have these, get these prophetic words.

37:07It's just because you're not disciplined enough.

37:09You're not giving him enough of your time.

37:11You're not sitting with him.

37:13You know, I'd get to the point where I would just sit there and I'd time myself.

37:17Have I sat here long enough?

37:19And it's just not something that's easy for me to do.

37:21I'm a very, you know, I move a lot.

37:24I think a lot, you know, and I think that really messed with my head and that was really wrong.

37:31That was really psychological torture to do to someone to think the reason God isn't doing

37:37what you want him to do is because you haven't spent enough time.

37:42You haven't gotten quiet enough.

37:44You haven't listened hard enough.

37:46You haven't said this many prayers, you know, and so that was very emotional.

37:53I feel like it was messing with my brain, making me think, again, making me think I wasn't good enough.

37:59And I would always wonder, how are these people being caught up in the spirit and being taken before the

38:07throne,

38:08be able to talk to Jesus?

38:10And, you know, as one told me, he would hang out with Jesus, fly with Jesus.

38:16They had a tree house.

38:18I kid you not.

38:20They played in the water and splashed each other.

38:24I'm not making this up.

38:26They, and I'd be smiling on the outside and I'd be saying, oh, I'm so happy for you.

38:33That's so amazing.

38:34And inside I was heartbroken because I'm like, God must not love me.

38:40He knows I would want to be able to do that.

38:43He knows I would love to visit him.

38:46Why, why can't I?

38:49And that stuff really messed with me, making me think I wasn't good enough for God.

38:55So I won't say it was alarming, but it just really messed with my head.

39:02I wanted to ask this question in the last podcast we did, because I was really curious when you described

39:07a church that literally you're wearing dog tags in.

39:11Yeah.

39:12Whenever you join one of these groups that are more destructive than the others, usually the doctrines come gradually.

39:19And there's two different ways that it happens.

39:22The first is they won't, whenever there's a new member in the audience, they actually won't go into the deep,

39:29they call them the deep subjects, the deep mysteries or whatever.

39:32They won't unload all the doctrines instantly because people just run screaming.

39:37Instead, they give you little building blocks to build up to that doctrine.

39:40Or they're so far out that people can't really connect the dots themselves until after they've been there a while.

39:47And they're like, oh, wow, that's a deep mystery.

39:50And it was there all the time.

39:52I'm curious.

39:53So now this question actually applies to this podcast, because I'm curious, how do you see that differently in a

40:01church that's not destructive?

40:02Are they open with the doctrines?

40:04Do they have this kind of gradual thing?

40:07Are they very transparent in what they're teaching?

40:11So that's on the side of the new.

40:13But back to the side of the old, if you could answer first, what was it like?

40:17Did they gradually introduce things or did you just connect the dots later?

40:21And the first one that I was in, which was prosperity, you know what's interesting?

40:26I was there for 11 years, and the very first service I attended, I remember, and I hadn't been churched

40:34in many years.

40:35A friend invited me to church.

40:37Here I was in a mega church, prosperity church.

40:42And it just happened to be, it just was a coincidence that the first day I attended,

40:49they had given out their statements, you know, to be so transparent on how they were spending all of their

40:56money that we were giving them.

40:58And so this service was about going through this document.

41:02Here I hadn't been to church in years.

41:05Last time I knew, it was probably 10 years before that, that I had been in church.

41:13And it was a Methodist church in a very small town.

41:16And I remembered what it was like there.

41:19And then we're getting this document to read about all their financials.

41:24And I was like, this is strange.

41:27And then I remember whispering to someone, is this what they always talk about?

41:31Like, no, no, no, you just happen to be here at one of our financial disclosure services, you know.

41:37And so actually, it was from day one that everything was about money.

41:43Um, so I can't say that one didn't disclose it right away.

41:47And of course, that service, anyone, you know, time for tithes and offering.

41:52Take your money, wave it up, and show God what you're giving him.

41:59From the very first service, it was about waving your money up.

42:02If you have money, wave it up to God, show him you got it, you know.

42:07So, no, that was right from day one with them, and it never changed.

42:12Um, and then I would say those little, the places I was in, I'm just trying to find my way

42:19that were these really strange, like, full preterism.

42:22And I don't know what the other one even was.

42:25Um, those were more tricky.

42:28They weren't so full on with what they were teaching.

42:34And that's why I didn't even recognize it.

42:38Those were, yeah, not so, uh, right from the get-go.

42:42But the circus I was in, the last one, basically, you would get invited by other people to go.

42:50And it would always be for the same reason, because you're going to get a prophetic word, because that's what

42:56you would do.

42:56But, as soon as you came, and it happened to me, you got a prophetic word.

43:01The service would stop, you'd be highlighted as this anointed individual who is now there, and the Lord wants to

43:09speak to you.

43:10And you would get a prophetic word.

43:11And so, it was known to be a place, if you go there, God will talk to you.

43:16You'll get a prophetic word.

43:17So, that'd be one of the reasons.

43:18Or, it'd be because they had four 12-foot angels posted at every corner.

43:26And they were the only church around that had an angel posted.

43:30So tall, and I would try so hard to see these, John.

43:36Services, I sat there trying to pay attention, but wanting to see these angels so bad that they swore were

43:45there, right?

43:46And that other people could see, and would draw, and everything.

43:49So, I don't want to see them.

43:51Just got to stare hard enough, right?

43:53And that's one of the things that you and I have in common, because we were told at Branham's church

43:57that the angels lined the walls.

43:59And I would sit there trying to see an angel.

44:01I never could see one either.

44:03Yeah, and I think that's because we were the normal ones, that we couldn't see these things.

44:09But, so I, yeah, now I'm totally thinking about that.

44:12I don't want to think about that.

44:14But he had these ways of marketing, and he would say them all the time.

44:21Like, yeah, we have, the angels are here, you know?

44:26And again, he would always give someone a prophetic word.

44:28And they did deliverance ministry there, and no other churches around were doing that.

44:35So, there was these big marketing tools.

44:39So, you would know that these things were going to happen, and you would want one of them, or all

44:43of them.

44:44And you would go.

44:45And it would be full on.

44:46There would be no hiding this, John.

44:48No hiding from the moment you walked in.

44:50It was a circus, and it was never, it never stopped.

44:53It never stopped.

44:55It was so bad.

44:58I have recordings that I've gone back and played for people or listened to, and they were like, no, that

45:09can't be real.

45:10You would hear screaming, crying, agony, children, you name it, would be in these audio recordings and these visual recordings

45:23that I have.

45:25People laying out all over the place, convulsing, twitching, you know, a prophetic word being given over here.

45:34Someone crawling up the wall over there, you know, an angel.

45:39Like, this, people wanted this, because compared to their church, theirs was boring.

45:47Yeah, I remember that feeling.

45:50I left, and then suddenly the church was, it was calm and casual, and there was nobody screaming at me

45:56behind the pulpit.

45:57And granted, at my grandfather's church, we had to listen to a recording of somebody screaming at you behind the

46:03pulpit.

46:04And this guy came out, and he's very measured, he's calm, and he preaches a calm sermon.

46:08And I'm like, how do these people get anything from this?

46:11I mean, the church that I'm in now, I have never met a pastor, and I said this in my

46:17testimony, that is as humble and laid back and just gentle and quiet.

46:23And it makes him a wonderful leader and teacher of the word.

46:27It's just his humility and ability to hold himself that way.

46:32And for so long, it was like ick to me.

46:35I was like, can't he do a little bit more?

46:38Like, move around, do something more with his hands, get a little louder, do something.

46:45Because I was so used to a performance and getting my emotions going, that that was boring for a little

46:53while.

46:53You know, I had to get used to it.

46:55I had to get used to the word of God being enough, John.

46:58Imagine that.

46:59Imagine going to church to learn the word of God.

47:03Now, are you one of the people who are under a spiritual covering?

47:07Oh, yes.

47:07And how dangerous it was for me to not.

47:10What's it like now that you're no longer under that covering?

47:13Oh, geez.

47:15You know, it's funny because I would say I've had the most, there's been a couple times where my mind

47:23for a split second has gone to,

47:25and I'm going to be completely honest for people out there, I should go back because my life has never

47:32been so hard.

47:33When I was in that, I had so much fun.

47:36I had so many friends.

47:38I was so sought after, John.

47:41I was famous.

47:42People called me all the time, emailed me, texted me.

47:46We want to hang out with you.

47:47We want to do ministry with you.

47:48You're so anointed.

47:50Can you cast my demons out?

47:51Can you, you know?

47:52And then I went to this quiet, most people can't stand me anymore.

47:58They think I'm crazy.

47:59They think that I've lost the Holy Spirit, and they've marked me publicly, marked me and shamed me.

48:07And now I've lost most of my friends, and everyone thinks I'm cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs now.

48:12You know, so that was just, it was just really hard to go to that.

48:16So there's been a couple times where I kind of felt sorry for myself, and I went,

48:19geez, my life is really lonely now, and really boring, and, but it's not.

48:27But that's what I, you know, that's the enemy, you know?

48:31And, gosh, if I just get back into that, you know, I won't fully believe what they're saying,

48:36but at least I can be part of it, and I can do those fun things again.

48:40My head has gone there a couple times, and then I quickly, the Holy Spirit quickly reprimands me.

48:47No, you'll never go back to that.

48:50I'm also curious, on a more serious note, I'm also curious, when you leave one of these things,

48:55everybody cuts you off, you know how it is.

48:57Yeah.

48:57I'm curious, after this much time has passed, has that anything, would that change,

49:01do people still communicate with you?

49:03I love that you asked me that, because that was my soul, one of my soul purposes in wanting to

49:09do this.

49:10And it's not, please don't anyone feel sorry for me.

49:13Please don't anyone say, like, oh, that's so terrible what they're doing to you.

49:18This is exactly what the Bible warns us of happening.

49:22Exactly what's happening is exactly what we were told would happen.

49:26We would be persecuted for our faith, and people would leave us.

49:33When we don't think the way they think, and we're not controlled by them anymore,

49:38they want nothing more to do with us, you know?

49:41So it's happening.

49:43But, no, these people that claim to be my family would come to my home, break bread with me,

49:51talk to me, check on me, call me,

49:53and one fell swoop with me saying,

49:57I don't believe in modern-day apostles,

49:59I don't believe in modern-day prophets,

50:01and I don't believe a Christian can have a demon in them, in them.

50:05Those are the only three things that I made known had changed in my doctrine.

50:10With that being said, totally cut off.

50:14Never to return.

50:16And I've tried to knock on the doors of some of these people that I really did miss.

50:23Not really knock on their door, but maybe send them a text.

50:26Maybe try to call them.

50:29Nope.

50:31Nope.

50:32And that's been, it's hard.

50:34I'm not going to lie.

50:35It hurts still.

50:38Yeah.

50:39So nothing's changed.

50:40There has been really no one in that place that has ever,

50:46and what's crazy is I brought a lot of them there.

50:49These are my friends.

50:50I actually ran into one at the bank the other day,

50:53and she's in it because of me,

50:56because I invited her there,

50:58and she's still in it,

51:00and she said hi and couldn't get away from me fast enough.

51:04It's hard.

51:05I have a lot of people who tell me exactly what you just said.

51:09The people just simply never connected.

51:11In fact, most of the people I knew, they didn't.

51:13If you could give some advice to people who are going through that,

51:16because there are several,

51:17what advice would you give them?

51:18Go back to your word.

51:20Keep reading.

51:22Be part of a real church that has a real mentorship,

51:26real discipleship,

51:28and the more you get immersed in the truth,

51:30the more that the lies and the hurt that people put you through

51:34won't penetrate you anymore.

51:36They won't have the same effect on you anymore.

51:39It's just staying in the truth

51:41and reading your Bible

51:43and to continue studying and praying.

51:47And God does.

51:49He has made so many ways for me

51:52to heal from this,

51:54regardless of those people.

51:57Why would I want to be

51:58in the lives of people that are in such false doctrine anyway?

52:03It's very hard to be in relationship with people.

52:05As much as I love them,

52:07that is very hard, right?

52:09To be in relationship with people that are,

52:12because an argument is going to happen pretty early on

52:15as you're having a conversation with them,

52:17because the doctrine is so crazy.

52:19It's so different.

52:20So my advice is stay in the truth

52:24and continue praying and trust God,

52:27not people.

52:28Don't put your faith in people.

52:29That's very good advice.

52:30Thank you so much for doing this.

52:32You're welcome.

52:34Had to learn the hard way.

52:36Absolutely.

52:37Well, if you've enjoyed our show

52:39and you want more information

52:40or to share your story,

52:41you can check us out on the web.

52:42You can find us at william-branham.org.

52:44For more about the dark side

52:46of the new apostolic reformation,

52:47you can read Weaponized Religion

52:49from Christian Identity to the NAR.

52:51Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

53:33For more information,

53:57For more information,

Leaving Hyper Charismania: Mystika’s Journey Back to Biblical Truth | Podcast Episode 670

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