- 2 days ago
John, Vicki, and Charles examine how high-control religion can reshape family life, parenting, discipline, fear, affection, forgiveness, and faith. Their conversation explores authoritarian church culture, spiritual abuse, childhood trauma, the Shepherding Movement, healing revival influence, Full Gospel Businessmen connections, and the long road toward recovery.
Vicki and Charles share memories of growing up under extreme religious control, while John connects their story to broader patterns found in William Branham's Message movement, Pentecostal revival history, and other authoritarian Christian environments. The discussion offers hope for survivors, families, former members, and anyone trying to understand how harmful religious systems can affect children for a lifetime.
00:00 Introduction
00:58 Charles and Vicki’s Childhood Background
06:10 Authoritarian Parenting in a High-Control Group
16:05 Submission, Abuse, and Family Relationships
23:08 Healing Revivals and Religious Influences
28:55 How Movement Control Shaped the Family
35:36 Never Feeling Good Enough
40:16 Confronting the Past and Lifelong Fear
44:12 Discernment, Counseling, and Healing
49:46 Advice for Those Still Struggling
54:09 Forgiveness and Final Reflections
57:01 Closing Thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Vicki and Charles share memories of growing up under extreme religious control, while John connects their story to broader patterns found in William Branham's Message movement, Pentecostal revival history, and other authoritarian Christian environments. The discussion offers hope for survivors, families, former members, and anyone trying to understand how harmful religious systems can affect children for a lifetime.
00:00 Introduction
00:58 Charles and Vicki’s Childhood Background
06:10 Authoritarian Parenting in a High-Control Group
16:05 Submission, Abuse, and Family Relationships
23:08 Healing Revivals and Religious Influences
28:55 How Movement Control Shaped the Family
35:36 Never Feeling Good Enough
40:16 Confronting the Past and Lifelong Fear
44:12 Discernment, Counseling, and Healing
49:46 Advice for Those Still Struggling
54:09 Forgiveness and Final Reflections
57:01 Closing Thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my very special guests, Vicki Neese and Charles Lee, former members of a high control
00:48group.
00:49Vicki, Charles, it's good to have you on and to share your story about being in and leaving a high
00:54control group.
00:54So maybe if we can begin by telling everybody a little bit about yourself, and we'll start with you, Charles.
01:00I was the oldest of four children.
01:03In 1960, my parents and my oldest brother and I went down to the altar to give our lives to
01:11Christ.
01:12My dad before that was an alcoholic, a cigarette, three and a half pack a day smoker.
01:17And he was not a very good guy at all.
01:21But after December 9th, 1960, there was a marked change in his attitude and his dedication to being honorable and
01:33Christian-like.
01:34Like, I will never betray him for that.
01:38He just was a wonderful, spiritual, changed man.
01:43So, you know, I have a lot of heritage that's been staying with me forever.
01:51So I can't complain about that part.
01:53It's just all the other stuff.
01:56Yeah, the devil's in the details with all that other stuff.
01:59Vicki, how about you?
01:59I'm Vicki, and I was number three of four children, the only girl, three boys and myself.
02:08Things were a little bit different for me.
02:11I didn't get the physical punishment as much as I got the emotional and mental stuff going on.
02:19But we'll get into that.
02:21I got married when I was 18 years old.
02:25I left home shortly after I turned 18, as did my older brothers.
02:30The Lord brought a wonderful man to me.
02:32It was the only way it was going to work, as if the Lord brought him to me because I
02:36was so damaged.
02:39And there was just a lot going on.
02:41And I knew that if God didn't bring him to me, it wasn't going to happen.
02:45We were married 40 years when he unexpectedly passed away almost seven years ago.
02:51And so, in the meantime, I have to credit him.
02:55His name was Ed.
02:56I have to credit him for helping me to grow into the person, the confident person that I am today.
03:04Because I can remember him telling me not long after we were married that he grew up in a home.
03:11His mother was a Christian, but his dad was an atheist.
03:13So, he grew up in a home where there was love.
03:15But I grew up, but they weren't Christians, you know, his dad.
03:19But he said, you grew up in a Christian home where there was no love.
03:23And he helped.
03:24He had so much patience and understanding with me.
03:26And he really helped me to come to grips with my upbringing and to be able to lay it at
03:32the cross and continue with my life.
03:34And I'm forever grateful for that.
03:36I like how you put that because we are all products of our own experiences, good or bad.
03:42Sometimes the bad experiences shape us in good ways.
03:44And ironically, sometimes the good experiences shape us in bad ways.
03:49But in the end, we are products of our experiences.
03:52The problem is when you're in one of these high control groups, they manipulate those experiences.
03:57Or they will target your experiences and exploit them.
04:01And so, they're contributing to the shaping of your person because they are engaging in insidious ways into your experiences.
04:11Sometimes they don't even realize they're doing this, but that happens.
04:14And what happens with this is sometimes it leads people in directions that are very unhealthy.
04:21And I'm going to be very clear up front.
04:23This is one of the more difficult podcasts that I'll be doing.
04:27The subject matter is very, very difficult for me.
04:31And it really hits home personally.
04:34So, I'm going to try to open up and contain my emotions.
04:38But this is a subject that nobody really talks about.
04:42Whenever you're in one of these high control groups and it manipulates you and you're a parent,
04:47it sometimes can change and alter the way in which you have relationships with your children in a very, very
04:56negative way.
04:56And as a child growing up in this type of environment, I can assure you that it makes it very
05:02difficult for the rest of the child's life.
05:04So, we're going to get into that a little bit.
05:06But hopefully, something that we can say can help someone who is trapped in this kind of environment.
05:13Correct.
05:13And if this helps somebody else who's been through something like this, you know, that's the whole idea and point
05:20of this whole conversation to us.
05:22So, as the oldest member of the family and now the patriarch, since my parents are gone,
05:28I feel a heavy responsibility to try my best to help my siblings to make right decisions and whatever.
05:36And my sister has been so instrumental in taking care of our brothers in his situation here.
05:43You know, strokes are not nice things.
05:46You know, and being a strong truck driver like he was, like me, for 16, 17 years, to see him
05:54in the condition he is now, it hurts.
05:56It really hurts.
05:57That's our parents right there.
06:00I didn't plan that, but there it is.
06:03Well, I'm glad they're here with us.
06:05It changes the dynamics a bit.
06:07So, as I mentioned, this is a difficult subject.
06:09We're talking about parenting whenever you're in a high-control group and when you're in a situation where the family
06:16unit is not as important as the cult is.
06:19And so, the children become valued less than the cult mentality.
06:24As sad as that is, that is typically the way that this plays out when you're in one of these
06:29groups.
06:29So, let's talk a little bit about, go back to your childhood.
06:34Let's talk through this authoritarianism, how it impacted you.
06:38What was childhood like?
06:39When I became a Christian, we started going to a church in West Palm Beach or Lake Worth called the
06:45Bethel Temple, Assemblies of God.
06:48It was started by the famous music and songwriter, Ira Stanfill.
06:55He sold a twin-engine airplane to start the church.
06:59And his brother-in-law was the first brother-in-law to pastor.
07:03He was the first one we ever had.
07:05That was John Wilkerson, who is David Wilkerson's uncle.
07:08David Wilkerson's uncle.
07:10Well, Ira was there at the church several times to show us new songs that he had just written.
07:17So, they've been a really source of strength for me through the years.
07:22That's where I fell in love with Southern gospel music.
07:25So, you know, what can I say?
07:28But, you know, I just am trying to be as transparent as I can every time that I talk to
07:35anybody.
07:36You know, I don't have any secrets, so to speak, other than inappropriate ones sometimes.
07:41So, you know, I had to be careful.
07:45But growing up, my mom and dad, I think they really didn't know how to show love.
07:52They'd been beaten down so much by their situation.
07:57So, you know, where are we going to learn differently from that because we were in that environment.
08:04So, it was tough.
08:06Yeah, I mean, they didn't, there was no love shown.
08:10There was no mercy shown.
08:13I can remember sitting around the table because all we had was each other.
08:16We weren't allowed to be around other people, other kids.
08:20We were very much sheltered.
08:22And so, if we got to get giggling at the table, I mean, we, there was, obviously, we were doing
08:28something wrong.
08:30And we would get put down for that.
08:32We would get yelled at or even smacked.
08:35And, I mean, if you spilled on accident a glass of milk or something, I mean, you would get punished
08:41for that.
08:41It was like the unpardonable sin.
08:43It was like you, no matter, you were always on eggshells.
08:46You never knew.
08:47It was just rebellion on your part.
08:49Yeah, we were always rebellious.
08:51That was their famous word.
08:53You know, you're being very rebellious.
08:55And it didn't matter what we did.
08:57It was never right.
09:00Dad was very strict.
09:03He really beat the boys terribly, especially my brother Tommy, the one that's got the mention now.
09:10You see this?
09:12Yeah.
09:13That's a stainless steel metal ruler that my dad used in the printing shop.
09:19And whenever I would do something wrong, I would get a hundred whacks and I had to count them.
09:27If I missed the count, I had to start over.
09:29With that metal rod.
09:31Yes.
09:32And on my brother Tommy, if you know anything about offset printing, there's a cutter.
09:40Paper cutter.
09:40Paper cutter.
09:41And it has a resin rod down where the blade comes down.
09:44And when they would get old, Dad would have to replace them.
09:47He would take the old one.
09:48And he would use that to spank us with.
09:52And, you know, my brother Tommy used to get a hundred, five hundred, a thousand whacks.
09:58My brother would, he got to the point where he wouldn't even cry anymore.
10:05That's how calloused he became.
10:07And, you know, it's very sad in his situation now as a 59-year-old man with severe medical
10:15problems to when he has an accident or he makes a mistake, he'll sit on the side of the
10:20bed and he's reverting back to that childhood memory.
10:24And he sits there and acts like he's going to be punished.
10:27And it's just very sad that you have to console him, you know, like that.
10:32But, yeah, it was, it didn't matter what we did.
10:36You can't remember ever going outside and playing baseball or throwing a Frisbee or anything.
10:42We lived in Florida.
10:43It's just so hard.
10:44We had a podcast some time ago on the Revival History series talking about what was happening
10:50inside of a commune that we call the park in William Branham's message cult compound.
10:55And it was horrific, the things that they were doing.
10:57And it included many of the things that you're talking about.
11:00I haven't really mentioned this a lot, but I have family members that were doing similar
11:06things with their children.
11:07And it's really hard to talk through.
11:10They, I have family members that were actually locked inside of a travel trailer in the blazing
11:17heat just as punishment for days on end.
11:21And things that just should not happen to children.
11:24I'll just say it like that and leave it.
11:25I have other family members.
11:27The doctor investigated just a normal checkup, but saw that the rear end had been, you could
11:34tell something was physically happening to the child.
11:37I'll keep it G rated and say it like this.
11:40And it turned into a big mess because the doctrine spear the rod and spoil the child.
11:45Just, they take it to extremes.
11:48Now that was the, the William Branham message cult.
11:51And people say, well, that's just isolated to that.
11:53That's, that's not that.
11:55That's not that common among the Pentecostal groups, the fundamentalist groups.
12:00But what I have seen is it is largely swept under the rug.
12:05The difference is in the, in the Branham group, the park was swept under the rug.
12:09Not many people knew about it until, you know, in the last decade, some of the news kind
12:13of broke.
12:14But in the larger organizations, there are so many different ways in which this can be
12:20covered up.
12:21And it's usually isolated to, well, this person just is not doing things in the way that they
12:26should.
12:27But remember that William Branham was the foremost leader of the post-World War II healing revival.
12:32If you go to my website and you type in physical abuse on the website search, you'll find a page
12:38where he is advocating for it, strongly advocating for it, not just children, but also wives, et cetera.
12:46This is wrong, but that is, that is what was being taught in the movement.
12:50As the leader, he was respected in his doctrine.
12:53So when he said, do it, people were doing it.
12:55And it, it ranged to some pretty, pretty violent things.
13:00He was actually talking about using two by fours.
13:02So this, this is terrible.
13:05Whenever you're in an authoritarian group, the problem is,
13:08because the parents are under such authority and there's such structure and, um, control,
13:14they feel like they have to do the same thing to their children.
13:18And so instead of raising them in a healthy way, they raise the children in an authoritarian way.
13:23Was that, was that your experience as well?
13:26Yeah, we weren't, we weren't allowed.
13:28Everything was, was regimented.
13:30On Sunday afternoons, you had to take a nap, whether you wanted to or not.
13:33It was nap time.
13:35And I mean, uh, it was yard work or housework or cleaning or cooking or taking care of your sibling.
13:43You know, it was, there was no, no joy at all.
13:48I was the oldest daughter for my mom because I did, I was her backup.
13:53Yeah.
13:53He's 10 years older than me.
13:55I'm, I'm the oldest of, of all four.
13:58And I babysat, I took care of the baby, changing diapers, washing clothes, washing dishes, just about everything.
14:05So when he left at 18, guess who got to take over?
14:10So my brother to this day calls me mom, you know, because I was like a mother to him because
14:15I,
14:15I did a lot of that, uh, nurturing because mom wasn't, wasn't there.
14:21She was busy.
14:22I know that there are people listening who say, well, that's just chores, man.
14:26Everybody has chores.
14:27If you're a, if you're a child, you should have chores, right?
14:30But the problem is this, when you're in a high control group, the central figure is showing
14:35authoritarian dominance over the rest of the group that cascades down to the elders in the group.
14:42And then the elders, because by design they're in that structure, they have to in turn be that
14:48way to the members of the group.
14:50Then the rank and file members, they, as family units, they start doing the same thing to their
14:55children.
14:56So it becomes more like a drill sergeant type parenting than it does actual parenting.
15:02And whenever it turns to that level, the children aren't doing things to help out because they
15:07want to help out or because the parents are teaching them how, how to, you know, take care
15:12of the house, et cetera.
15:14They're doing it because they're being manipulated and controlled in the same way that the parents
15:18are.
15:18It cascades down from level to level to level.
15:21The really hard part about all of this is the parents often don't know that they're doing
15:26this because that's just the way it is.
15:28That's the way everybody else is doing it.
15:30When you're in that group think mindset, everybody in the group is doing it.
15:34That becomes normal.
15:35And so outside of this looking in, if you were never in this type of environment, you
15:40have to understand that it wasn't normal.
15:42This wasn't normal at all.
15:44And because people who are parents are doing this to their children, even after they leave
15:50the group, they don't understand that they have severely critically impacted the child's
15:55lives.
15:55And again, I, I won't go too far with the details, but I res, everything that you've
16:00said resonates with me because I understand fully what you're talking about.
16:05Yeah, it's very true.
16:06And you saying that, um, I, I took care of my mom after my husband died.
16:10I moved back from, I lived in New Jersey for 40 years.
16:13I moved back to Florida to take care of my mother in her last 16 months of her life.
16:19And I can remember sitting there one day because all of us were together.
16:22My brother, my brother, all three of my brothers and I were sitting at the kitchen table.
16:26And I just said to her, I said, mom, I said, you know, it would really be a good thing
16:30if
16:31you could tell my brothers that all that happened and the things that we, you know, endured as
16:39children, if you could just say, you know, we made mistakes, you know, own it, you know,
16:44at least acknowledge that there were mistakes made.
16:48And her immediately, her immediate response was, I was following your dad.
16:54He was the one in charge.
16:56I was submissive to him.
16:58And the leader's wife was dealing with the same thing.
17:01And I said, mom, you both should have called the police.
17:05It was abuse.
17:06And I'm sorry that you can't acknowledge that it was abuse.
17:11But she was just following blindly my dad.
17:13I mean, that's what she was taught, to be submissive, that he was the ultimate in control
17:19and whatever he said went.
17:21And it was a real difficult thing to maneuver through, especially as we got older and dad
17:30became, you know, because they had a Christian bookstore, print shop.
17:34Eventually, they opened their own Christian bookstore and print shop.
17:37And of course, we had to work there.
17:38We didn't have a choice.
17:42And dad also was a volunteer chaplain for 45 years in the local jail prison system.
17:50And he would have more love and care and time for those inmates than he did for us children.
17:59And we saw that as we got older.
18:02We noticed that, you know, it was just, we were just employees.
18:05And that's, and my husband did say that one time.
18:08He says, you didn't raise children, Mr. Lee, you, you raised employees.
18:12And, you know, it was, it was true.
18:15It was very true.
18:16I'm 74 now.
18:17I just turned 74.
18:19And I don't remember any involuntary hugs from my dad.
18:27Somebody had to shame him into getting a hug from my dad.
18:32That's the other thing that not many people talk about or think through.
18:35In these types of groups, they often try to demonize everything and they will turn many things sexual that are
18:44not.
18:44And I'm trying to wait cautiously with what I say here.
18:48But they will, for example, you mentioned the hugging.
18:51In our group, they demonized hugging.
18:54They demonized any form of affection and turned it so sexual that if you were a man who walked up
19:00to a woman after the service.
19:02And you gave a person a hug, it was a sexual thing.
19:04You were invading the, you were lusting after the woman.
19:08That's really what it turned into.
19:09And it's just disgusting when you think about it.
19:12I was a little uncomfortable whenever I started going to real churches.
19:16And people were hugging people.
19:18And I was like, wait a minute.
19:20This feels wrong.
19:21But that's how it was.
19:23And it creates a very unhealthy relationship because even the parents to their children, sometimes they, the things that they're
19:32teaching in the group, they actually apply to the family unit.
19:34So hugging in some, I know other families are the same way.
19:37Hugging was off limits.
19:39Even for your own daughter, if you were a man in the group, this is wrong.
19:44This really changes the way that the dynamics of how a family unit can function.
19:51But worse than that, as the child develops and grows up, it leads to all kinds of problems, especially with
19:57regards to marriage.
19:59How did that affect you?
20:00Did that impact your marriage at all?
20:02Well, my husband and I were first, the first five years we were married, we had some difficulties.
20:07I mean, obviously, he came from one end of the spectrum and I came from the other.
20:11And we had to learn to grow together.
20:14And I just had a lot of hurts and a lot of things.
20:17I mean, my father didn't even give me away at my wedding.
20:20My grandfather, his dad, ended up doing that, which was a blessing.
20:25But we went for some counseling and I can remember just knowing that I had to forgive them, that I
20:34had to accept them for who they were, that the Bible says to honor.
20:39And so I chose to honor and respect them for their place in my life.
20:43It didn't mean I had to agree and it didn't mean that I had to be okay with all the
20:49things that had happened.
20:50But that I didn't have to let those feelings control me anymore.
20:55And I turned a corner after that and God gave me such a love and love for them.
21:01Even my husband was amazed that I was, I just loved them and couldn't do enough for them in like
21:09helping with bills or come down and help them with things or whatever, little things along the way in life.
21:17And I'm just so grateful that we were raised the way we were because it's created me to be the
21:25person that I am today.
21:27And I'm very conscious of, even with my own children, I mean, I have two children, a son and a
21:34daughter.
21:35And the first few years were a little rough for me because I was under that authoritarian rule and that's
21:42all I knew.
21:43And my husband had to come alongside and teach me where the middle ground was, that we had to, we
21:49couldn't be all, you know, you got to do this, you got to do that, but bring some fun into
21:54it.
21:55And I'm just grateful that the Lord brought the right person into my life to help me with that because
22:00I was kind of a mess.
22:01I mean, I was ready to get married.
22:03I was, I was okay with that part of it, but being a mom and all the things that come
22:07with it, that, that, that was difficult, but, but we did it.
22:11And my kids are 44 and 42 now.
22:15Yeah.
22:15Like I said, it's just really so sad.
22:17The parents don't realize they're doing it.
22:19Sometimes the children, they don't realize what's happening.
22:21And it's unfortunate for everybody involved sometimes.
22:25And I'll say this with caution, but sometimes even the leadership don't realize what they're doing to the people because
22:30they're just caught up in that environment.
22:33It was in the healing revivals.
22:34Branham was the foremost leader.
22:36His doctrine was spreading.
22:38He was seen as a, he was seen as a teacher, which is odd because he often mentioned, I don't
22:43know what's in the Bible, but I know the author real well.
22:46And yet he continued to teach the Bible, which was really odd when you think about it.
22:51But many of the things he was teaching were like these doctrines where you have to keep your children in
22:56line.
22:57They must, they must do exactly as you say.
22:59Otherwise they're insubordinate.
23:00It was awful.
23:02And it spread all throughout the revivals.
23:04Did your family have any contact with the healing revivals?
23:08I was listening to one of your podcasts last night about divine healing.
23:11And I'm like, wow, that brings back a lot of memories.
23:14I mean, we weren't allowed to take Tylenol.
23:16We weren't allowed to take aspirin.
23:17And we weren't allowed to do, I mean, we, if we were sick, we just had to tough it out
23:22and pray.
23:23Yeah.
23:23We saw A.A. Allen in tent meetings when we were kids.
23:28You know, that was just, anytime there was a tent meeting come through, we were there.
23:32You know, that, that was.
23:33The tent revival, tent was right across the highway from where we, we had the church that we went to.
23:39You know, it was in the Polo Grounds Mall, the Polo Grounds down there in West Palm.
23:44And, uh, it was, it was a big event.
23:48Yeah.
23:48When he would come and then, um, David Wilkerson came there a couple of times too, you know.
23:54We had, uh, Catherine Kuhlman came down to West Palm Beach and to the Palm Beach, uh, what's what it's
24:02called?
24:02It's a auditorium.
24:04Yeah.
24:04It's a leaky team.
24:04And I was one of the members of the choir behind her, you know, singing.
24:08Yeah.
24:08Wherever the parents went, we went, we didn't, you know, there was no, you know, but I think
24:14one of the takeaways from learning to be submissive from my mother, cause she did teach me, um,
24:23you know, I watched her and, and I, you know, I learned it was subservience.
24:28It wasn't submission.
24:28It was subservience.
24:30I didn't get to go to my, I was at my sister's wedding, but I didn't know all.
24:34All that in, you know, stuff that she was going through back then.
24:38It makes me sad that I wasn't more involved because being her big brother.
24:43Well, he was dealing with a lot on his end too.
24:45So we won't go into that.
24:46It's another story.
24:47I know I got, I got it back.
24:49I learned to guard my heart very young.
24:52I didn't just accept everything.
24:56Even like today, I don't, I don't, I'm very careful about prophetic words and, and all the
25:03stuff that's going on.
25:04I just, I, I, it has to resonate with me.
25:08I don't jump on the bandwagon.
25:10I don't jump into the crowd.
25:11And case in point, I'm sure you've heard of W.V.
25:15Grant.
25:15Yes.
25:16Well, my grandparents were big supporters of his and gave him a lot of money over the
25:20years.
25:21They would be appalled now if they knew who he really was.
25:25But I can remember going to, um, it was the Souls Harbor church.
25:29Um, and he was a, he was here in West Palm and I was in a line to get prayed
25:36for.
25:37Everybody, you know, was going to get prayed for.
25:40And I was just like 14, 15 years old.
25:45And I was in that line.
25:47And the closer I got to him, the more uncomfortable I got.
25:50And I just decided that I was going to step out of line and I wasn't going to let him
25:54pray for me.
25:55Now, am I ever glad that I followed that intuition, that Holy Spirit nudge to step out of that
26:02line?
26:02Cause he really, he was a mess.
26:05Yes, he was.
26:06My dad was very involved with the full gospel businessman.
26:09You've talked about that.
26:11You know, he was.
26:12He was a secretary.
26:13Yeah.
26:13He was a secretary in the local branch.
26:16And of course, Dima Shakarian would come to Miami a lot.
26:18And my dad was very involved with that.
26:21And of course, then there's women's aglow.
26:24But the biggest thing was the big five.
26:26We were very, that the big five back in the day, Mumford, uh, the shepherding movement.
26:32It was the shepherding movement.
26:34The leader was the, he was the end all.
26:38It was his choice.
26:39I mean, you know, if you wanted to buy a car, it had to go through him.
26:43You know, the men sat on one side, the women sat on the other with the children.
26:48My mother had to wear a hat to enter the building.
26:51Um, you know.
26:53No, there was no low net in line.
26:55No, it was all up here.
26:56I never wore, my husband bought me my first pair of slacks that I ever wore because I
27:01was, I wore dresses my whole life, even working out in the yard and everything, much like
27:06the Amish, you know.
27:08And, um, so yeah, I mean, there's just so many things that, I mean, I think one of the
27:15joys that we had was we got, uh, we would go to the migrant camps and sing.
27:20And that was like a night out.
27:22We enjoyed that.
27:23We, we just, you know, those people were just so sweet.
27:26We would, they were just so loving and so appreciative of our coming, you know?
27:31Yeah.
27:32But, you know, when that, I don't know if you remember back in the day that it was prophesied
27:36that a tsunami was going to hit Florida and that, yeah, that it was back in the seventies,
27:42early seventies.
27:43Yeah.
27:43We had canned food underneath our beds and all over the place.
27:47I mean, mom and dad took everything to such extreme, you know, and they just listened to
27:51whoever, whatever, you know?
27:53Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
27:58modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter rain, charismatic and other fringe
28:03movements into the new apostolic reformation?
28:06You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
28:14On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles
28:19Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper, audio, and
28:26digital versions of each book.
28:28You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
28:34movements.
28:35If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute
28:40button at the top.
28:41And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening
28:46to or watching.
28:47On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
28:52As I mentioned before, I can relate to many of the things that you're talking about and
28:58the things that I can't directly relate to in my own experience, I can put faces to within
29:03the movement that I came out of.
29:05The way that the authoritarian leadership flowed downhill into the parents and to the family
29:12unit, it was devastating, especially as a child.
29:16You grew up and you just can't believe that this happened to you.
29:19If you escape and you're able to unwind and unravel all of that stuff in your head, you're
29:24thinking, why on earth did my parents do this to me?
29:29But I don't want to lose sight of the fact that the parents, many of them are good people
29:34and have no idea what they're doing.
29:36In fact, some of them, I would say, want to do the best for their children and some of the
29:41things that they do that wreak havoc in the minds of their children for the lifetime of their
29:47child, they think that they're doing that because of God.
29:51They think it's a godly thing that they're doing.
29:53I want to talk through that a little bit and I want to talk a bit about the character.
29:58So you mentioned your father.
29:59Let's talk to your father a bit.
30:01Would you say that your father was a person who was a compassionate person?
30:06You know, he was always so, it was always about other people.
30:11Compassionate.
30:11He was very compassionate.
30:13People would come in the bookstore and he would have long conversations with them.
30:17I mean, if you came in and Brother Lee was standing there and you got into conversation,
30:21you were going to be there for a little while because he was a talker.
30:25And, you know, I'm grateful that it was what, early, Tommy was born in 67, so it would have
30:32been 68, 69 that mom and dad left the cult.
30:38It was called Christian Revivals.
30:39It was in West Palm Beach, Florida.
30:42And it was two brothers, Gordon and Curtis Gentry, that started it and they were the heads.
30:48And, um, when mom and dad left, I think that what made them leave was dad went into, he was
30:56there working late at night and he had gone over to the pastor's house, which was on site
31:01and, um, they were having a steak dinner and here we, we had tube steaks, tube steaks.
31:09We had government commodities that people would bring to us.
31:13Um, we would have, um, leftover day old bread from a bread store that somebody that worked
31:20there would bring to us.
31:22I mean, I, I, you know, we had, we never went to bed hungry, but we never went to bed.
31:27Can't say that.
31:28Can't say that.
31:29Um, can't say that.
31:30You can't say that.
31:31Because my, my dad, whenever I, he would get to a point where if I did something that
31:36really made him mad, I would go without a meal.
31:40Um, but there were days when I had no meals, a whole three meals.
31:45I was restricted from eating.
31:47Yeah.
31:47And I can remember, you know, when I was, after they left home, my two older brothers, um,
31:53the weeding outside was left, left to me.
31:55And we had a pretty decent yard and a lot of fruit trees and things like that, that my
32:00middle brother had, had put in the ground.
32:03And so there was a lot of weeding to do.
32:05And I really did not like weeding.
32:07I did not like being out in the heat.
32:08I just did not like that, but that was my job.
32:12And so on a Saturday morning, if I didn't get out there and do it before my dad had had
32:17enough, he would send me out there in the morning, get me up at six o'clock in the morning.
32:22And he would say, you get water and nothing to eat until the weeding is done.
32:26And I, however long it took me to get that weeding done.
32:29Sometimes it was late in the afternoon.
32:30All I could have was water.
32:32And that was just the way it was.
32:35And you didn't argue.
32:36And if you did, if you, if you got, if you got mouthy, you got backhanded and I'd find
32:41myself looking up off the floor, you know, and there was no patience, no, um, no understanding,
32:49no care or concern about your feelings.
32:52Your feelings didn't matter.
32:54It was all about, there was no mercy, no mercy.
32:57Yeah.
32:58It's, it's really just awful.
32:59I mean, there are people listening who think, oh my gosh, I can't believe a father would do
33:03that to the child.
33:04But yet at the same time, this was a compassionate person.
33:07So think of that dynamic, how that works.
33:10The cognitive dissonance when you're in the group will make you do things that you wouldn't
33:14ordinarily do.
33:15And it just wreaks havoc with the children.
33:17I can't even imagine what it would be like for you having been in an environment like
33:23that, where you actually miss meals, having grown up in that environment.
33:26How did it, how did it affect you?
33:29Like, do you still hold resentment?
33:31You know, everybody's got to make the decisions on their own of how they're going to deal with
33:35it all.
33:36I know that my faith in God has been a hundred percent the strength that I've had to deal
33:42with a lot of this stuff.
33:44And so, you know, I'm blessed.
33:47Yes, I agree.
33:49I mean, I, you know, there's just so many, so many ways we could have gone the other way.
33:54We could have been very disrespectful.
33:56I mean, I, you know, when I told my mom and dad that I was getting married, they were like,
34:01you know, wait a couple years and, you know, because they wanted me to work in a store.
34:04And I'm like, no, this is God putting me in this direction.
34:07Well, then they called me rebellious and then they refused to come.
34:11And that's okay.
34:12I forgave them a long time ago for that.
34:14And I know it was one of their regrets, but it's okay.
34:20I, I just feel like sometimes you just got to take it.
34:25Like he said, you don't argue.
34:27You don't, you don't try to plead your case.
34:29You just kind of go with the flow.
34:31So, I mean, you don't become a doormat.
34:34You don't do anything like that.
34:36But at the same time, it's, it's like for the cause of Christ in my life and who I am
34:43and how I reflect him.
34:45Sometimes you just got to let some things go and you got to forgive and move on and make the
34:50best of the situation.
34:51And although it was rough and there was, there was a lot of spiritual abuse, I had a little bit
34:59of essay in the other degree from a, my employer at the Christian radio station.
35:06And that's another whole story.
35:08But at 15, I became a DJ at the Christian radio station because of my dad's influence, you know, with
35:14his programming and stuff.
35:15And, and I was an on-air personality and I thoroughly enjoyed doing that.
35:20And I did it until I got married.
35:21But the boss was not, didn't have really good intentions and he called himself a Christian.
35:27So, you know, I mean, there's just, you know, you just got to take the good with the bad and
35:32spit out the pits.
35:33That's what my grandfather used to say.
35:35And I, you know, as hard as it was growing up, as difficult as it was because there was no
35:42pleasing mom and dad.
35:44I mean, I was a straight A student in high school.
35:46And the day, the night I graduated, my dad and mom were always late.
35:51They were notoriously late to anywhere they went because they had to do this or they had, this had to
35:56be done.
35:56They had a grand entrance.
35:57Yeah.
35:58So anyway, so they came to my graduation and my dad had to park out by the street because there
36:04was no parking left.
36:06Well, somebody had thrown a, a beer bottle and broke the glass on the, the back car window.
36:13It was a station wagon.
36:14And I can remember him saying in front of my aunt, God rest her soul.
36:19She's in heaven.
36:20She kept me going.
36:22My aunt Lorraine, she kept me going through high school and said, you're going to be 18 soon.
36:26Just hang on.
36:27She kept me going.
36:30Anyway, when he came out and he saw that, he goes, well, if I hadn't been here, I guess that
36:34wouldn't have happened.
36:35I mean, what a thing to say to your daughter that's just graduated high school.
36:40I was salutatorian of my class and I, you know, I had never done anything by today's standards to bring
36:49any shame or dishonor to my parents.
36:53I had never done anything like that.
36:55And to know that that's how my dad really felt.
36:58I mean, that was, it crushed.
37:00It was very crushing.
37:01And it's like, you could never be good enough.
37:04You could never do enough to gain their love or acceptance of who you are.
37:12When dad was on his deathbed, unfortunately, I wasn't here.
37:20I was driving my, I was a professional truck driver for 18 years, 17 years.
37:25Well, I wasn't around very much.
37:27You know, I'd call him on the phone, do whatever.
37:30But Vicki told me a story that will let her tell it about on his deathbed.
37:36But after all he did to try to promote the cause of Christ, you know, when he became a Christian,
37:43this is what he said to my sister.
37:44Yeah, he was, he was a track passer out or he, he passed out gospel tracks, printed them.
37:50He would go into the stores when my mom was shopping and he would roll them up and put them
37:54down and ate six packs of soda.
37:56He'd put them in there.
37:57Or beer.
37:58Or, or beer, or he'd put them in the coat jackets or whatever.
38:01And he, and he was always a witness for Christ and he always had a jacket on because he had
38:06tracks in there.
38:07But on his deathbed, after knowing 45 years he was in the prison system, all the people that I know
38:14he had led to the Lord,
38:16he looked at me and he goes, I hope I'm good enough to go to heaven.
38:21I, I hope I make it.
38:23And I looked at him and I said, Dad, you have crowns in heaven.
38:28And the amount of people that you brought to Jesus, I said, when you see him face to face, he's
38:35going to say, well done.
38:37And I just reassured him that it wasn't about what he had done.
38:41It was about what Jesus had done through him.
38:45And, you know, it was just sad to see your dad in that state, you know, to say something like
38:51that.
38:51But, you know, because he had dementia too.
38:54And so, you know, that even in that, that he was reliving or thinking about things that had happened.
39:01Yeah, it is sad.
39:02I've talked to people whose parents were in hospice and, you know, they, they can't help what they were in.
39:09That's part of their life experiences.
39:11They can't help the fact that they got sucked into a authoritarian cult or that maybe they were born and
39:17raised in it.
39:18Like my parents were born and raised in the group that we came out of.
39:21My parents can't help it.
39:23And the things that have happened that shaped my life experiences largely are a result of the way that they
39:31did their parenting.
39:32But their parenting was largely a way of the movement.
39:36And that's really where you have to put the focus.
39:38I could, I could be very angry at some things, but instead I focus all of my attention on the
39:43movement because it was the movement that actually caused most of the neck, maybe not all, but most of the
39:49negative things that I have in my past.
39:51And everybody that I've talked to who has escaped, that's really the case with all of them.
39:55You have to put the blame where the blame is.
39:57And it's usually on the movement, sometimes not even the leader, because the leader gets caught up into the mind
40:03control as well.
40:04So you have to separate what is a problem because it was a cult, what was a problem because of
40:10parenting, and then kind of work through that.
40:12And it's, it's really, really difficult.
40:14I know it's difficult.
40:15I wrote a letter to him.
40:18My parents, I forget when it was.
40:21I was up in North Carolina.
40:22It was in the eighties.
40:22I wrote a letter, I mean, it was a long letter, and I poured my heart out explaining different things
40:30that happened from, with them through the years.
40:35And I sent it to them, and I never heard a word about it from them.
40:41They never responded to that letter.
40:44My grandparents and my aunts and everybody else knew about that letter because they were very appalled that I would
40:51rewrite such a letter.
40:53And one of the things that I said to dad was, dad, you should be grateful for God's grace because
40:59you've been visiting these prisons all these years with people being abusive to their kids and all that.
41:07You should be in jail because you were that way too.
41:11And you should be grateful to God that he had mercy.
41:16But that never was responded to.
41:18They never said.
41:19Yeah, and that's the thing, you know, after a few years when we finally started talking, because we weren't allowed
41:25to be around our relatives because they didn't want us to tell them what was going on.
41:30My grandmother, my mother's mother, said if she had known some of the things that were going on, my aunt,
41:36my cousins, even my cousins were like, if we had known, we knew it was hard, but we didn't know
41:41how bad it was.
41:42We would have done something, you know, and that was the thing, you know, and that was the control.
41:47You were to be seen and not heard.
41:49We were not allowed to express ourselves.
41:52If we did, we were rebellious.
41:53If we talked back, if we tried to stand up for ourselves, that was not okay.
41:59We were not allowed.
42:00I was not what you'd call a rebellious child in school either.
42:04You know, I was very much tried to follow the rules as the firstborn, especially.
42:09However, when I did get called on the carpet about something that I had done, whether in purpose or inadvertently,
42:17when I got home, my parents assumed that I was guilty and would punish me severely.
42:25Now, even now, going back to what my dad felt, I tried my best to live a circumspect life.
42:32I try to do what's right.
42:34I try to think about things before I do them.
42:37But yet some days, there are days when I just don't feel like I'm worthy, you know.
42:43Am I really going to go to heaven, you know?
42:46And that's really the result of being inside of a group where the emotions are being toyed with and manipulated.
42:53It was always this.
42:54It was never that what Jesus did was done on the cross once for all.
42:59It was literally it was done once every Sunday.
43:02You go and they play with your emotions.
43:05They say, are you going to make it?
43:07Are you sure you're going to make it?
43:08And they make you question your own salvation.
43:11And some of the adults who are more solid, maybe that's okay.
43:15Actually, I'll take that back.
43:16No, it's not okay.
43:17But to the children, it is devastating because to the children who are trying to find their footing and trying
43:22to understand life.
43:24Well, if you keep ripping the floor out from under them every single Sunday, they're going to not be solid
43:30in their faith.
43:31And then that continues to compound as you get older.
43:35You question everything.
43:36And there are many, many people who are just like you.
43:39You continue to question it.
43:41We were always, as children, we were always going to the altar or having to confess our sins.
43:47I mean, there was no assurance of salvation.
43:50It was, oh, you messed up today.
43:53You're going to hell.
43:53You better get on your knees before you go to bed and you better ask the Lord to forgive you.
43:57I mean, that was.
43:58I looked at God as my father, as this dude up there waiting for me to screw up so he
44:04could throw a shoe at me.
44:05Yeah.
44:06Yeah, it was not.
44:09It was so difficult.
44:10So difficult.
44:12Yeah, it is difficult.
44:13Well, even for your parents, again, the parents don't realize what they're doing.
44:17Was your father ever able to come out of this?
44:20Well, Dad was not very much able to break away from a lot of that training per se.
44:30I know one thing.
44:32When we were at any church we went to and attended for Sunday school, our biblical training was very strong.
44:41We learned Scripture.
44:43We learned how to, you know, discern things.
44:47Definitely.
44:48You know, and that's been the most wonderful benefit that I could ever think of.
44:53I mean, you know, what are you going to do?
44:57I mean, you're in this cloudy mud pit and you've got to try to find a way to get clarification
45:05for things.
45:05And so, thankfully, you know, like, we'll listen to things on podcasts and stuff that just does not ring true.
45:14And my feelers go up really quickly.
45:19You know, everybody pats their backs on these certain quote-unquote prophets.
45:27Yeah, I mean, discernment is a huge thing that I took away from our childhood.
45:34I learned to test the spirits.
45:36I learned to guard my heart, like I said earlier.
45:41And, you know, I'm grateful for the way I was raised.
45:45But I'm grateful for where God's brought me from.
45:491985, my husband and I went for some deep counseling.
45:52And it totally rearranged my life.
45:57And it brought joy and it brought peace and it brought the assurance.
46:01And we went on to be worship leaders and also youth pastors.
46:10We were youth pastors at the church where my husband got saved when he was 12.
46:14And there was joy in serving others.
46:17And if I learned nothing else from our childhood, we did learn to serve.
46:22We did learn to have a servant's heart, to be thoughtful of other people's feelings,
46:29to be thoughtful of where people are in their life.
46:34And I don't know that mom and dad taught us that on purpose because I'm not sure.
46:39I mean, my mom could be compassionate, but she could also be very harsh with people,
46:49especially if they came against her or my dad or were critical or something.
46:54I mean, she didn't take criticism very well at all.
46:57And so, if nothing else, I've learned to be very compassionate to other people's feelings,
47:06to try to, I mean, I don't jump headlong into friendships or, you know, social gatherings
47:15because I'm just, I have to read the room.
47:18I have to, I have to know what's going on, where people are coming from.
47:23And that could be a positive or a negative, I guess.
47:27But the friends that I have, I've had for a long time.
47:30I have some friends that have already gone on to be with the Lord.
47:33I always gravitated towards older people because, number one, they had wisdom,
47:38but because I was probably looking for a mom and dad figure, you know, in my life.
47:43And so, yeah, I'm grateful.
47:48I've never been sorry for how I was raised.
47:51At the time you are, at the time you're like, I can't wait to grow up and get out of
47:55here.
47:55But I'm talking about as an adult looking back,
47:59it shaped me to be the person that I am today.
48:02And it shaped me to, to be compassionate and caring and thoughtful of others
48:07and to show Jesus in a different way.
48:11We had one pressure relief situation that we always went to.
48:16When we get around the dining room table,
48:18we could drive my parents nuts because we were cracking jokes and all kinds of stuff, you know.
48:23And when there was four of us, it was hard, you know.
48:25They couldn't figure out which one was the instigator.
48:28It was funny, though.
48:30It was fun.
48:31Bless their heart.
48:31And then when we got to be adults and we'd go out to dinner and we'd start this stuff,
48:35there was nothing they could do.
48:36And we could just cut loose.
48:42So, you've had a very difficult story.
48:45This has been emotional for me.
48:47I, I don't talk about it much, but I can relate to many of the things that you describe here.
48:53And it does have an impact for the rest of your life.
48:57That's really the sad thing.
48:58In fact, there are some people who I have on the podcast,
49:01and you can kind of sense it if you've been through something like you're describing,
49:05and somebody begins talking,
49:07and you can watch them just kind of veer away from the elephant that's in their room.
49:12You know what's going on behind the scenes.
49:14You know that they, too, have experienced what you're describing.
49:17It is more widespread than anybody realizes it is dominant through this type of cultish environment.
49:25And it's really sad on both sides, from the parent's side, from the children's side.
49:30It is really, really sad.
49:32So, these people, they become adults.
49:34Some of them escape.
49:36Even after escaping, they're still plagued by it.
49:39That elephant is still in their room, and it haunts them.
49:43It's really, really difficult.
49:45If you could give some advice to those people who are still struggling with the way that the family dynamics
49:52was ripped out from under any sort of normal structure,
49:57the way that the cults have impacted these lives, it's horrific.
50:01What advice would you give to people who are still struggling with this?
50:04Well, I know, for one thing, that over the years, I have been very, very desirous of finding people that
50:13are older than me to help me, mentor me, and how to live my life and be a good example
50:21to those around me.
50:23I have always respected elderly people.
50:26Now I are one, so to speak.
50:29When we went to the nursing homes as kids, I had such compassion and love for those people, because I
50:37could see they were the closest to eternity.
50:39And they needed to be evangelized, and they needed to make sure they knew the plan of salvation.
50:44And I was glad to be there.
50:46You know, there's a lot of people out there that are hurting, and I live in a retirement community now
50:52where people are just clueless.
50:54They're either in dementia or Alzheimer's or physically unable to do stuff.
50:59And I feel so very compassionate and so worried, because I feel inadequate to help them.
51:05You know, most of them are totally set in their ways to the point where nothing's going to change them.
51:12You know, and I struggle a lot with that one, because I feel inadequate.
51:17But, you know, I still just keep plugging along, because I know that eternity is forever.
51:24You know, so I try my best to try to find an opportunity somewhere to be of help.
51:30I would say my biggest thing that I would say to someone that has been through this kind of situation
51:38and growing up like this, you first have to forgive.
51:44It's not necessarily for the person that hurt you.
51:47It's for yourself, because it frees you from being put in a box and being beaten up all the time.
51:54You have to let it go.
51:56You have to give it to Jesus.
51:58Jesus is the only answer for any of our trials and tribulations.
52:03And with that, when the true forgiveness comes, there's such a release of your spirit, your inner man, the stuff
52:12that has held you in an entanglement.
52:17It just frees you.
52:19And from there, you can blossom and be the person that God created you to be.
52:26And find friends.
52:28Find people that are like-minded.
52:31Find people that have been through the same situations.
52:34Talk it out.
52:35Share your experiences.
52:37Don't be afraid.
52:38I mean, I thought a lot about this while I was waiting for this day to come.
52:44You know, the Bible tells us to honor our parents.
52:46And I don't believe anything we've said or today has been dishonoring to our parents.
52:53It was our story.
52:55It was truth.
52:58It was the way it was.
53:00And the best way to honor them is to show the forgiveness of Christ.
53:07And how even though it was tough and we had rough days and rough moments and there were times when
53:16you just didn't know how to respond or whatever, God can bring you through that.
53:22There is hope.
53:24There is grace.
53:25There is unmerited favor that none of us deserve.
53:29And even though life is hard and we go through things, His grace is sufficient.
53:36And He, even as a widow, you know, of almost seven years, His grace is sufficient.
53:43Do I like my situation?
53:45No.
53:46But I've learned to blossom in it and try to be thoughtful of others that are going through something similar.
53:54I mean, I was young.
53:55I was only 57 when my husband passed away.
53:58But there are so many other people that have it worse than I ever did.
54:02And so I'm just grateful for the cross, for Jesus, His sacrifice, and for forgiveness.
54:10Because that's, to me, that's truly where it's at.
54:13My parents, my mom was in the hospital for, I don't know what it was she was sick with, but
54:20dad and I would have to go up there two, three times a day to visit mom.
54:25Because he was worried about mom.
54:29And I was getting ready to leave to go back to work.
54:34My truck, just go back.
54:36And so was that the last time I was going to be with my mom and dad?
54:40And it was while she was in the hospital.
54:45And I don't know what happened to make me say this, but do you remember the show, the movie, The
54:53Shack?
54:53Yeah.
54:54I have learned since then that that was not all scriptural.
54:57It was, but it was an allegory.
55:01Yes.
55:01And I was a truck driver and I was sitting in my truck with my CD player blaring the audio
55:09version of that book.
55:11And I'd be driving down the road and tears just pouring down my eyes because it brought back so many
55:17feelings.
55:19And I would cry out to God and just ask him to help me forgive my mother and dad for
55:24all the things that they, they had put us through.
55:28And, uh, I finally got a release from that.
55:32And I was standing at the foot of my mom and dad, my mom's bed.
55:37Dad was standing there and I said, you know, I'm getting ready to leave.
55:41I got to go back to work.
55:43So, but I want you guys to know something.
55:46I wrote you a letter that poured my heart out about how I was feeling about all the stuff that
55:51we've been through.
55:52So, family, I says, you never acknowledged it.
55:55You never, you know, even made any attempt to discuss any of those issues that I mentioned.
56:02But I said, I have chosen to forgive you.
56:05You know, you did what you knew you had to do.
56:09You did what you did because you didn't know any better.
56:12So, it's, you know, so I said, I forgive you.
56:16And, uh, I don't know how long it was before dad passed, but I hadn't really had a relationship with
56:23them at all.
56:24I talked to him on the phone once in a while, but I wasn't, you know, all that gung-ho
56:28on talking to him.
56:30But, uh, when my, when my dad died, I started calling my mom every morning to check with her and
56:39check on her.
56:40You know, and I miss that because, you know, we got a chance to talk and share things and just
56:47laugh, you know.
56:48So, I miss that part.
56:50So, as long as you have them, keep, keep control, keep with them.
56:54Don't reject it because it's not good.
56:57You're not going to get it back.
56:59All I have now is memories.
57:01Well, that's very good advice.
57:03Thank you so much for doing this.
57:04Thank you so very much, John, for your time, for listening.
57:09And, um, hopefully it helps someone move a little closer to Jesus if they're not already there.
57:17That's what it's about.
57:18Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story, you can check us
57:22out on the web.
57:23You can find us at william-brannum.org.
57:25For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to
57:31the NAR.
57:32Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
58:03We'll see you next time.
58:15We'll see you next time.
58:37We'll see you next time.
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