- 2 days ago
John and Brantley discuss “Stadium Christianity,” the rally-driven religious culture behind mass revival events, prophetic hype, healing claims, crowd psychology, IHOPKC lore, Lou Engle, Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, and the shift from ordinary Christianity into spectacle.
They examine how crowd size, emotional pressure, prophetic language, altar calls, healing stories, money appeals, and “nameless faceless” revival expectations shaped generations of believers — and why this form of Christianity often looks very different from the quiet, local, costly faith described in the New Testament.
00:00 Introduction
02:08 Brantley Connects Stadium Christianity to Battlecry and Appalachian Pentecostalism
05:00 Rally Cries, Hype, and Crowd Psychology
06:36 Brantley’s Youth Group Revival Culture and “The Sound”
14:11 Glossolalia, Euphoria, and Manufactured Miracle Perception
18:29 Brantley on Mind Control, Youth Quake, and Worship Leader Identity
21:00 Conformity, Silence, and Crowd Pressure
24:07 Hearing Sermons Differently After Stepping Back
26:24 Brantley’s Childhood Vocal Condition and Healing Testimony
32:05 John’s Family Faith-Healing Story and Reassessment
35:20 High-Demand Religion and Maintaining the Hype
36:15 Brantley Introduces “No News but Good News”
38:11 Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, and Brantley’s First Exposure to Stadium Christianity
42:36 Restoration Christianity, Apostolic Movements, and Stadium Events
44:55 Brantley on Money, Event Expenses, and Manipulation
46:42 Rapture Theology, Kingdom Theology, and Stadium Revival
48:14 Joel’s Army, Billion Soul Harvest, and IHOP Prophetic History
51:01 Branham, Paul Cain, Joel, and the End-Time Army
52:31 Final Reflections on Stadium Christianity
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
They examine how crowd size, emotional pressure, prophetic language, altar calls, healing stories, money appeals, and “nameless faceless” revival expectations shaped generations of believers — and why this form of Christianity often looks very different from the quiet, local, costly faith described in the New Testament.
00:00 Introduction
02:08 Brantley Connects Stadium Christianity to Battlecry and Appalachian Pentecostalism
05:00 Rally Cries, Hype, and Crowd Psychology
06:36 Brantley’s Youth Group Revival Culture and “The Sound”
14:11 Glossolalia, Euphoria, and Manufactured Miracle Perception
18:29 Brantley on Mind Control, Youth Quake, and Worship Leader Identity
21:00 Conformity, Silence, and Crowd Pressure
24:07 Hearing Sermons Differently After Stepping Back
26:24 Brantley’s Childhood Vocal Condition and Healing Testimony
32:05 John’s Family Faith-Healing Story and Reassessment
35:20 High-Demand Religion and Maintaining the Hype
36:15 Brantley Introduces “No News but Good News”
38:11 Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, and Brantley’s First Exposure to Stadium Christianity
42:36 Restoration Christianity, Apostolic Movements, and Stadium Events
44:55 Brantley on Money, Event Expenses, and Manipulation
46:42 Rapture Theology, Kingdom Theology, and Stadium Revival
48:14 Joel’s Army, Billion Soul Harvest, and IHOP Prophetic History
51:01 Branham, Paul Cain, Joel, and the End-Time Army
52:31 Final Reflections on Stadium Christianity
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Brantley Smith, former
00:45member of IHOPKC.
00:47Brantley, it's good to be back and to talk about rally cries.
00:53Another name for it, the name that is used as branding, is Stadium Christianity.
00:57I was reading through Lou Engel's bio, he's got it up on his website, and there's so
01:03many flags that are tripped in my mind whenever I read that, but the biggest one is he is
01:10supporting what is called Stadium Christianity, and I don't think we've talked about this
01:15before, so I was wanting you to talk through it with me, but essentially if you look through
01:20the history of how all of this began, you had the healing revivals, the revivalists suddenly
01:26started having tents, they were going to the rural areas, and then it became a battle for
01:30the tents.
01:31Who's got the biggest tent?
01:32I think A.A. Allen, if I remember correctly, won that battle, but there were those who said
01:37we're going to get a bigger one than him, and then suddenly, the invention or the widespread
01:43use of air conditioning, people just really didn't want to go to tents anymore.
01:46And I find it really, really odd that it's kind of traversed into a weird realm where now
01:53it has gone back to the outdoor venues, and we want Stadium Christianity, and I was thinking
01:58of just how different that is from normal Christianity.
02:01So, welcome back.
02:03I wanted to talk through this with you.
02:05We're back for another time.
02:07I'm trying to jot down ideas here because you just connected so many dots for me.
02:12Like we talked about Stadium Christianity before we hit record today, you mentioned
02:16the rally cry.
02:17Another little influence that I had in my life that recently there was the shiny happy
02:22people documentary about was the battle cry for my generation and the big stadium stuff
02:27that they were doing with Ron Luce.
02:29I had a little cameo of that in my life of the youth group kind of before I got youth
02:35group
02:35age was always going to the Acquire the Fire events.
02:38I didn't get to go to any of those, but I did get the battle cry for my generation book,
02:44which is a nice little crossover.
02:47And talking about the tents too, I think that we've mentioned this before, but I grew up in
02:54Southwest Virginia.
02:54People don't know in the Appalachian Mountains.
02:57And so, there's a lot of independent Pentecostalism of many different kinds that run through the
03:02mountains and I used to hear my granddad tell stories all the time about the tent preachers
03:09who would come through town.
03:10And that's how a lot of them became quote unquote spirit filled was because he talked
03:14about the one he liked to tell was the legend of Billy Sunday coming through town and setting
03:19up his tent and stuff.
03:20I don't remember any details from the story, but they talked about it.
03:24And that was such a peculiar thing because we're out in the middle of nowhere where I grew
03:29up, we're about an hour from any kind of metropolitan area.
03:34The closest metropolitan area would be Tri-Cities, Tennessee, which is Johnson City, Kingsport,
03:40Bristol kind of area.
03:41If you're familiar with that, which is not a massive place, Bristol's the birthplace of
03:45country music though.
03:47And yeah, so there's lots of crossovers here.
03:51Their stadium Christianity is part of what sucked me into the IHOP orbit just by happenstance.
03:58Man, there's so many crossover points for me and this idea.
04:03Where do you want to start?
04:05I don't know, man.
04:06There's so many places to start.
04:07So you mentioned the Johnson City area.
04:09If you've read my latest book, it is a focal point because it was a hotbed for everything
04:15Christian identity, Branhamism.
04:17The most racist pastor in America who just also happens to be a Branhamite.
04:22He was labeled that, I should say, by social media.
04:25He's from Johnson City, Tennessee.
04:28And D.C.
04:30Stevenson, the most notorious Klan figure from the state of Indiana, he's buried there in
04:35Johnson City.
04:36And my research kept coming back to that area for some reason.
04:40So it gets a little bit odd.
04:41But when you think about all of the connection to the revival, the tent revivals, the breeding
04:47grounds for religion, which mixed politics, which mixed ideologies, which mixed white supremacy
04:54or Christian identity, it all makes sense when you really take a step back.
04:58But I think the biggest place for me to start is just the idea of the rally cry within this
05:08what's called stadium Christianity, because not many people realize if you go to a ball
05:12game, you get so invested in that ball game.
05:16Anybody who's been to a stadium and watched a ball game will tell you that I've seen it
05:21on TV.
05:22Yes, it was kind of exciting, but there's nothing like being there.
05:26And what has happened is the religious industry has capitalized on that feeling.
05:32It's a feeling.
05:33It's not really that the Christianity is any different.
05:36They could do the same thing as televangelists.
05:39It's not that anything's really new.
05:41But once you're into that hype, you start to get into the rally mode, and you shut off
05:49critical thought even more than when you go to church, which is odd.
05:52But I was just, right before this podcast, just for giggles, I was looking through all
05:59of the failed prophecies that Lou Engel has had, some of which aren't really prophecies,
06:06but he says it in a prophetic way.
06:09What he's doing is he's taking advantage of the rally.
06:12You get people in the rally, they get excited, and whatever it is.
06:16Whether it's talking about the third great awakening that he said would happen and didn't,
06:23it's part of the rally cry.
06:25We need to build people up to that hype, they get excited, and then when they leave, they'll
06:29continue to send us our money.
06:31As you talk about that and describe that, it reminds me of my local church experience a
06:37lot, of how that was almost a microcosm of that environment.
06:44It's not lost on anybody that Pentecostalism is a lot of hype at times and a lot of emotion
06:49and getting people stirred up.
06:52As you're talking about that rally cry, the memory that comes to mind when I was in youth
06:56group, that's whenever I started leading worship.
06:58I was 14 whenever I started leading worship, 13, 14.
07:02And we would go on these retreats to Gatlinburg, Tennessee.
07:06It was where we would go.
07:07We would get a cabin and go up in the woods and the whole youth group would pile into these
07:11cabins.
07:12And I remember there being, it's hard to talk about now, and I think you'll relate to this
07:17in the sense that some of these moments seemed so genuine to me and almost, dare I say, precious
07:25still to this day.
07:28Because some of these times were very formative, very impactful on me as a young person.
07:35When we were on this one cabin trip, I remember we were having a, we would do like acoustic
07:40worship in the living room of the cabin and have little prayer services and such.
07:44And I remember there being, I don't know what you guys called it in the Branham circles,
07:50but we had a spirit of travail fall where people start groaning.
07:55And I mean, it's the rally cry in a sense.
07:58People are like yelling.
08:00And if somebody walked in, they would think we were all crazy and had demons, I think.
08:04Even if they didn't believe in demons, they would probably think that we had demons with
08:07the sounds that were coming out.
08:09And I remember my youth pastor pulling me to the side and prophesying kind of over me
08:16and talking about the sound is the phrase that he used.
08:20And he kept talking about how God's going to release the sound and that we're going to
08:23be a part of this sound and how he had tasted the sound and that we were going to see
08:28it
08:28again kind of thing.
08:29And really what I think he was describing was that adrenaline-fueled kind of moment of ecstasy,
08:39I think, that we experienced in those moments where everybody would lift their voices and yell
08:45and shout and cry and scream.
08:50So it's so interesting for me to see how these tactics are used in the settings of where there's
08:58tens of thousands of people, but also in rooms of tens of people.
09:03And that was a lot of my upbringing was navigating that.
09:09Our youth group used to do – it's very – so I grew up in the middle of nowhere, Appalachia.
09:17And our church was probably – it was an Assembly of God church that didn't like to fly the Assembly
09:23of God flag.
09:23We tried to pitch ourselves more non-denominational to be friendly to outsiders.
09:29And our youth group, around the time I was transitioning into youth groups, I'd probably been
09:34about 12 years old, was experiencing what they called a revival.
09:39And what happened was that we had a huge influx of people, but the reason that that was happening
09:44was because of these rallies that we would do across the county.
09:49We had – it's very Bible Belt in Appalachia.
09:53Everybody's Christian.
09:54Everybody's born Christian in Appalachian.
09:56If you're not, you're a heathen, and nobody trusts you.
10:00Everybody's got their Ichthus fishes on their business signs and very heavily Christian area.
10:07And we had connections to be able to get inside the school systems, of all things, to where
10:13we would go and do – I think we did during the day school events a couple of times, but
10:21those were very rare, but we would do these after-school events that were usually sponsored
10:26by either one of our youth kids that were in the SCA, or the Fellowship of Christian Athletes
10:32would sponsor it, or we would have somebody from our church, was a teacher, was able to
10:36sponsor – we had all these little loopholes that we would use, and we would do these big
10:40events at these schools, and they would send permission slips home to the kids to have
10:46their parents signed so that they – it was consensual.
10:51And it was big things for us.
10:53I mean, it felt like, I think, for us as teenagers and youth group, I think it felt a little
10:59stadium
10:59Christianity to us, and that we're like doing this big evangelistic kind of thing.
11:05But what ends up happening is our little church of – I say little church.
11:09We were a big church for the area.
11:11We had about 400 people that would show up on a Sunday morning, but our youth group got
11:16to the point that we were running about 200 to 250 kids on a Thursday night, and part of
11:23that's because there's nothing else to do in the mountains, and so it's real easy to
11:27draw.
11:28But these inside tracks that we had to schools was very unusual, and I had experiences there
11:35that are still hard to explain to this day, but we had this one rally that we did at a
11:41middle school that was sponsored by FCA, and we had done a Daniel fast leading up to it.
11:46We had a 21-day Daniel fast, and so we were all jazzed and buzzing by the time we walk
11:51in
11:51there, thinking like, God's going to move.
11:53God's going to do something.
11:55And I remember it was super odd.
11:57A lot of this, I just don't – I don't know how to explain, if I'm being honest.
12:01Our youth pastor, we'd get up and do our worship set.
12:04I was worship leading at that time.
12:05Get up to our little worship set, little concert-ish kind of thing is what we would do for those
12:09kind of settings a little bit more, but a youth pastor got up, and he was evangelist
12:14through and through, and he could give a good Pentecostal altar call at the count of three.
12:18Come up here.
12:19If you were going to die in a car accident tonight, where are you going to go?
12:21I mean, he had all the lines, and he knew how to do an altar call and stuff, but he
12:27preached
12:27the most – what I even called back then, the most unanointed sermon I'd ever heard
12:33in my life, and from the time we started playing music, he got sick, and so we thought he was
12:38being spiritually attacked is what we thought was happening.
12:41He was in the back room throwing up.
12:43He was – it was awful, and then he gets up and speaks, and it's awful, but then once
12:50he switches to the altar call, I don't know how to explain what happened after.
12:55The whole environment changed.
12:57It felt like we could sense something different in the room.
13:00We're playing our little music behind him.
13:02He's starting to give the altar call.
13:03He gives his count of three for people to respond, and the whole cafeteria almost responds,
13:08this little multipurpose cafeteria we were in, and kids hit the front of the altar, and
13:14it was almost like that travail kind of thing.
13:16We hear these kids, these little middle schoolers going, ah, kind of thing, and I remember one
13:22of them vividly weeping and crying because they saw a vision – I don't know, but we'll
13:28let them decide what they experienced – but they saw a vision of their family member burning
13:34in hell, and they were distraught.
13:37But the other piece that was happening at the same time is about half of them started
13:42speaking in tongues.
13:43And still to this day, I don't know how to explain that because whenever we would go in
13:47those environments, that was very much in the heyday of the seeker-sensitive era, so
13:53we were careful about speaking in tongues in those kind of places.
13:57But I'll never be able to shake that memory of those kids running to the front, hitting
14:02the altar, and speaking in tongues.
14:04They hadn't heard it from any of us.
14:06They hadn't, you know – I still to this day don't know how to explain that.
14:11I would offend a lot of people if I did try to explain it in Pentecostalism.
14:16So instead, I'm going to try to explain it in Hinduism.
14:20Pentecostalism is not the only religion that has this type of thing.
14:25Glossolalia happens in multiple different environments.
14:29And there is a psychological connection to getting into that state of euphoria and getting
14:36so anxious at the same time that your brain separates from your normal executive function.
14:44And in other religions than Pentecostalism, you'll see that this is usually whenever this
14:50glossolalia begins to happen.
14:52So in other religions, you can see that there is a cause and effect.
14:57Let's take it a step further with the feeling of euphoria because I really think this is
15:03important and not many people grasp it.
15:06They usually hear the stories after the fact, after the event has happened.
15:11We had 10,000 souls saved in this revival, that kind of thing, you know.
15:16And when it was healing revival, we had tens of thousands of people healed,
15:21people rising right out of their wheelchairs and walking.
15:24I interviewed this lady.
15:26I actually know her personally.
15:27She's a really nice lady.
15:30She was in the Branham movement during the healing revivals, and she was a young child
15:35with a curious mind.
15:37And she was sitting just at the spot where the ushers were bringing people in through
15:43the prayer line to be healed.
15:45And she was watching as these people were walking up to the line and then standing in
15:51this long line that went out into the heat.
15:53And some of the elderly people were struggling to stand for so long.
15:57And the ushers would walk up and say, hey, why don't you sit in this wheelchair for a
16:02bit because your legs might get tired.
16:04And so she's watching one by one by one.
16:07And the people are wheeled up to the stage by the ushers.
16:10And when they get to the stage and the prayer is made, you know, the laying on the hands,
16:15suddenly they raise up and praise God.
16:18It's a miracle.
16:19It's a miracle.
16:20Now, the preacher, in this case, it was Branham.
16:23I'm certain he never said that they had any affliction that caused them to be in a wheelchair.
16:27But what does the audience think?
16:29That's really the key.
16:30What they think is that somebody just raised up and got healed.
16:35And the other aspect, so you mentioned the nostalgia.
16:38There's so many different psychological effects to stadium Christianity.
16:42But one of the biggest is this.
16:44In your mind, without even thinking about it, you suddenly start to associate crowd size with
16:52evidence of truth, especially if you're a child.
16:55If you're growing up in this thing, you could be critically thinking.
16:58You could be starting to critically process.
17:01But wait, there's 10,000 people in here.
17:04Oh, my gosh.
17:05This must be true.
17:06And that kind of feeling, just especially if you're younger, that feeling hits you.
17:11So what happens is the crowd size affects the way that you perceive the person on stage.
17:17And then the person on stage becomes all the more powerful.
17:22Suddenly, this is, oh, my gosh.
17:24This is the stage presence that's commanding these 10,000 people.
17:28And to people who are in this movement who think this is normal, they always are curious
17:35why other Christians see it as abnormal.
17:38And I was one of those people.
17:40You know, I never saw the stadium sizes like you had.
17:44But I did go to large basketball auditoriums for some of the revival meetings.
17:48I felt the same things.
17:50This massive crowd, oh, my gosh.
17:52This is of God, right?
17:53And then I learned that the whole thing is, you know, filled with fiction.
17:57None of it's really real.
17:59So I was in that euphoria.
18:00I had that same feeling, that same effect.
18:03But whenever I left and I'm starting to read the Bible for myself, I'm reading things like hearing them make
18:11the statements,
18:12well, Jesus had the big crowds.
18:14Look at the loaves and the fishes and the massive.
18:16But if you actually read it, he thins the crowds pretty heavily.
18:20He does not want people to make him out to be a celebrity.
18:24And they're doing the exact opposite.
18:26They want a bigger crowd because the more crowd, the more money.
18:29You talked about what they think is their reality.
18:33And that's how the – which was a phrase whenever we first started having conversations, Sean,
18:37I was very uncomfortable with, which was mind control.
18:41And it's something I've warmed up to because I realized the reality of it, how real it is.
18:47Because I look back now and I see its impact in my own life with most of those ideas that
18:54you talked about.
18:55I have a very vivid memory from – it was when I was in youth group, youth group age.
19:02We would do these yearly events at local schools that wasn't affiliated with the school day.
19:07We would just rent out the auditorium because it was like our biggest venues in the area at the time.
19:12And we called it youth quake is what it was.
19:14It was like this youth revival kind of thing.
19:16We'd get as many people into a gymnasium or auditorium as we could.
19:20And I remember I ended up leading worship at the end of one of the nights.
19:25And there was 2,000 people there, 1,200, 2,000, something like that.
19:29I'm evangelisticizing probably, but it was the most amount of people I'd ever played in front of.
19:34And I remember that that did something to me because shortly after that, I ended up in an innocent situation
19:41of playing in a school talent show with our worship band, which was interesting that they let us do that.
19:47But we did.
19:48And I remember people coming up to me and how they treated me afterwards, that I was no longer nerdy
19:56Brantley.
19:57I was now almost rock star Brantley is kind of how the shift happened.
20:02I was kind of a chameleon in high school.
20:06My favorite people to hang out with were the drama nerds.
20:08That was my favorite people, the theater people.
20:10But I was also an athlete and I hung out with the jocks and got along with the band.
20:15I was in band for a little bit, got along with the band geeks, the choir kids and all the
20:19stuff.
20:19But there was definitely a shift of perception after that, that it had turned me, and it's been one of
20:25the hard things to talk about to help people understand the impacts on me and my own journey as a
20:3114-year-old becoming a worship leader and being idolized in a culture.
20:36What that does to your brain, I think it's probably very similar to what like child stars experience, like child
20:41movie stars and stuff.
20:42It's not the same magnitude, but the way that I was treated and the way that my family was treated
20:49and interacted with.
20:51My sister got preferential treatment at times because she was my sister.
20:56Once I moved away and went to Kansas City, nobody cared about my sister anymore.
21:00You mentioned the mind control, and that actually one aspect of this really, really ties to it.
21:05There is a series of experiments that happened in the 1950s after Hitler was able to mass mind control an
21:17entire nation to become so hateful.
21:20The United States and other countries wanted to figure out, well, this is a power he harnessed.
21:25How did he do it?
21:26And they started performing all of these experiments, and the government was funding some.
21:30Others were just self-funded, but there's this one experiment that was the Ash Conformity Experiment, I think it was
21:39called, in the 50s.
21:40And what they would do, they would have this classroom, and they'd have a projector, and on the projector there
21:45would be two cards.
21:46One had a line of a certain length, and the other card had A, B, C, I think, and D,
21:52lines of different lengths and one matching.
21:55So, there's truly one correct answer, and two to three incorrect.
22:00Well, they'd go around the room, and they would ask each person which was the correct answer for the matching
22:06length.
22:07And all of the people were in on it except for one test subject.
22:12And they would go through different test subjects, and all of the people in the room would give the wrong,
22:16the same wrong answer over and over.
22:19And they would get to the test subject, and I remember the look on his face like, what in the
22:24heck are these people talking about?
22:26There is no way that that is the correct answer.
22:29And they would fight it, but there were 25% of the people that they tested who would at least
22:36one time, and sometimes every time, would conform to the audience because that hype.
22:43You're getting into this area where your mind begins to second-guess itself.
22:48So, if you're in a large crowd like this, and they say something that's just off the wall, you're like,
22:54well, is that true?
22:55Everybody else believes it.
22:56I think I will, too.
22:5825% of the people are going to do this, right?
23:01I remember the shock that hit me.
23:03There were so many boisterous claims in the revivals, and some of them were just outlandishly false.
23:09And I remember going back and studying some of those, and in previous podcasts, I think I've mentioned exactly which
23:16ones.
23:16But it was Branham, and he would say things that were just pulled straight out of his butt false.
23:22And he would say, don't you remember that brother so-and-so?
23:25And brother so-and-so would say yes.
23:28Even if he didn't.
23:29It was absolutely false.
23:32But I got to thinking about it.
23:34So, you're in this crowd, 5,000 to 10,000 people.
23:37Are you going to stand up in front of 5,000 to 10,000 people and say, no, that's not
23:42true.
23:42You lied.
23:43You're a liar.
23:44Nobody's going to do this, right?
23:46And more to the point, whether they do or not, usually if that happens, I did find one person that
23:52called him out.
23:53But usually when that happens, they just keep quiet.
23:56I don't think that happened, but who knows?
23:58Maybe it did.
23:59Maybe I'm wrong.
24:00And they sit there in silence.
24:01Well, now you've got, if it's a crowd of 10,000, you've got 9,999 who think it's true because
24:08the person didn't object.
24:10If people listening, if you have stepped out of religious environments completely and haven't been set in a Sunday morning
24:17sermon in a long time, it's an interesting exercise.
24:21To step back in and hear the things that are said in a pulpit on a Sunday morning and hear
24:27the amens in the audience.
24:32It's so funny because we live in such a culture that's digital technology first, that political rallies, Sunday morning sermons,
24:40theater, art stuff.
24:42It's very rare that we get people together in a room and have these big speaking things anymore.
24:48And so it's very peculiar.
24:50I'll hear things from time to time as I'm still in church circles.
24:53And I'm like, I hear somebody say amen from the back corner.
24:56And I'm like, do you realize what's being said right now?
25:00You're talking about if you de-church for a while and then suddenly come back, the shell shock that you
25:05get.
25:06I actually recommend people, if you're in one of these types of movements, to do what I did.
25:10I wasn't yet ready to de-church.
25:12And so I was sitting there listening to things that just, it was causing my skin to raise.
25:19I knew that something was off.
25:21I didn't really know what.
25:21So what I did mentally, I would go to church and I would pay close attention to everything that was
25:29said.
25:30And then for the next two Sundays, I would actually tune it out in my head and I would be
25:34thinking about either work or dinner or whatever else
25:36and totally ignore what was being said on purpose so that I could compare the two differences and was there
25:43a variance.
25:44And when I did this, I was like, oh, my gosh, I see where they're heading with this.
25:48And sure enough, they were trying to step back into the healing revival mode in a non-healing revival type
25:55church.
25:56This was a mainstream denomination and ended up creating this center for like faith healing that was just so incredibly
26:03wrong.
26:04Faith healing for people with mental health issues that really need help way beyond what the preacher could give them.
26:10Right.
26:11So I did that and I was able to at least tell that something's off here.
26:15And then I started asking questions and I learned that there are some churches you just don't ask questions in.
26:21I don't think I've ever shared this here.
26:24I don't think I don't know if I've shared it on a podcast before.
26:27Whenever I was a kid in kindergarten, I got diagnosed with a vocal condition.
26:32Doctors at Vanderbilt at the time told me that I would never be able to talk above a whisper and
26:36I would never be able to sing specifically.
26:38I ended up having four surgeries over the course between kindergarten and fourth grade to have it was these warts
26:47that grew my vocal cords and they would have to laser them off.
26:50My church, this was in the heydays of Brownsville, Toronto, all of that going on.
26:55And so my church would pray for me and they would fast and I would say probably for the past
27:01five, six years, something like that, I've kind of shifted my opinion of what happened, I guess.
27:08And I think like reassessing all the things we've believed in things is just part of this process.
27:14And so I've kind of just said it on the shelf.
27:15I even had a point where I had a pastor ask me if I would share my healing testimony and
27:21I told him no.
27:22And I was like, you know, I don't know how I feel about that anymore.
27:26I'm not sure how I process it or what that reality is.
27:30And so I have my fourth surgery and doctors at that time, what they told us from Vanderbilt was that
27:36if it ever went away, it would be as I'm coming out of puberty in my early mid twenties.
27:44It's the only chance that I had of it just going away.
27:47If not, it was going to be yearly surgeries where I was going to have to have these warts removed,
27:53which was very medically traumatic as a kid having to be put to sleep and waking up and all that
27:59kind of stuff.
28:00And I went down a rabbit hole maybe like a week or two ago.
28:03It was very recent.
28:05And with AI, because I was just curious, it's like one of the things where you can put in a
28:09quick thing, give me sources, you know, whatever, and then go start reading around on the internet.
28:12And found out that they have, what I had was a strain, I guess, of like HPV is what it
28:21was, that was on my vocal cords as a birth side effect is what it was.
28:27And research now is showing that it will eliminate itself as you're entering puberty as well as whenever you're exiting
28:37puberty.
28:38And so, this timeframe of whenever I had my last surgery was in fourth grade is what it was, which
28:46would have been right around the time that I was entering puberty as a kid.
28:50And so, to see that now is, I don't want to say it's unsettling because I felt for a while
28:56that it wasn't something divine, if you will.
29:01But I remember how my church responded.
29:04And that's what made me believe it, that God had given me a miracle was they literally, John, they literally,
29:11it was like a Sunday night service or a Wednesday night service, something I remember as nighttime.
29:15And it was a couple of the deacons, elders, I can't remember what we called them in our church, but
29:19who threw me up on their shoulders and they marched me around the church, almost like in a procession, celebrating
29:29the healing that God had done for me.
29:32And I'm not even sure at what point we decided that it was gone.
29:37I'm not sure what that timeline was because I was a little kid.
29:39I don't know if it was right after the surgery or six months after the surgery.
29:43I can't formally recall when I was declared healed.
29:46I probably shouldn't ask my mom about that.
29:49But yeah, it's so funny.
29:54I'm not going to look at them as a fourth grader.
29:57I don't know how old you are in fourth grade, maybe 10, 11, 12, somewhere in that ballpark.
30:01Six, six, probably about 10.
30:03I'm not going to look at a room full of adults and go, no, God did not heal me.
30:08But that became a core part of my identity because then I started leading worship and singing.
30:13And so what everybody wanted to say was, doctor said he would never be able to talk above a whisper
30:17and he would never be able to sing.
30:21And now it just seems disingenuous, if that makes any sense at all.
30:25But that's a big part of my journey of having to figure those things out.
30:32And that fed into me going headlong into being a worship leader.
30:37The things that I was told was the devil tried to steal your voice.
30:42The enemy tried to steal your voice.
30:45And now, you know, you have to use your voice for God's glory kind of thing was was was kind
30:50of the messaging.
30:51And yeah, no, that's that's something I hadn't shared before that that just kind of came to mind in recent
30:57developments.
30:57I guess I'm still in process.
30:59As you said, I'm new to all of this, which I didn't believe you, but I'm believing you more week
31:03by week.
31:04Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
31:12reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
31:17You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
31:25On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
31:33John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
31:39You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
31:45If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the
31:52top.
31:52And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
31:58watching.
31:58On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
32:04I don't think I've mentioned this on the podcast.
32:06I usually try to avoid anything about my family or myself, because if I'm talking about my family, people will
32:12think that I have some sort of agenda against them, which I don't.
32:15Or if I talk about myself, I'm trying to point to myself, which I'm absolutely not.
32:20But I have mentioned that my father was healed in one of these faith healing revivals.
32:26My father was in one of these revivals with William Branham on the platform, where he went up to the
32:32platform, he was prayed for, he had rheumatic fever, and it was this great miracle that they still talk about
32:40to this day.
32:40And he was given by the doctors just a few weeks to live.
32:46They said, you need to take him out of school, be home with him, the boy's going to die.
32:51And rheumatic fever, if you don't know what this is, this is a bacterial infection that's caused by, I think,
33:01strep throat.
33:03People develop this thing where it really, really brings them down with their hearts having trouble.
33:11They get really tired.
33:13It's a big deal.
33:14It really was a big deal.
33:15So my grandparents, instead of taking him out of school, they took him to William Branham to be prayed for.
33:23And through positive confession, he confessed that they confessed that he was healed, put him back in school, which now
33:30in hindsight, I'm looking at all of this, asking some really good, really hard questions.
33:35But long story short, the very next year, he won the Physical Fitness Award in high school.
33:40So if you're in the movement, this is a miracle.
33:43This is pure, plain, and simple.
33:46The boy was going to die.
33:47He goes to the healer.
33:48Now he's winning the Physical Fitness Award.
33:51For years, I would tell this story to people.
33:55And I was pointing at William Branham because in the crowd mentality, in the stadium culture, you're looking at the
34:01guy on the stage.
34:02You're actually not looking at Jesus.
34:04And so we were believing that Branham was the healer, and Branham had healed him.
34:09Well, years later, I find out that, number one, it's not a death sentence.
34:14People who have this, many people have survived.
34:17There's a large number of people that have survived.
34:19Number two, it's treatable.
34:20This is something that if you just go to the doctor and the doctor gives you meds, if he tells
34:25you to stay out of school, let him rest, we're going to give him this treatment, it was a healable
34:29thing.
34:30It still is.
34:31And those who have it, those who have it and heal, they have ongoing issues, some with their heart, some
34:40other issues.
34:41And I started going through this list of issues that happen when somebody heals naturally, and it matches the very
34:49same symptoms that I'm watching in my father.
34:51And I'm reading this thinking, oh, my gosh, did they lie to me this whole time?
34:56But that was the first thought that came in my head.
34:58My grandparents lied through their teeth.
35:00But I've come to realize that it's not really that.
35:03The people really do believe it because it's the hype.
35:07You get into that hype, and that hype makes you continue to believe.
35:12Here's the interesting part about this.
35:14This is a hype-fueled religion, the stadium religion mentality.
35:19It's one of the reasons why they call it a high-demand group, because you must maintain that hype.
35:27You must keep the people in the hype.
35:29The moment you don't, you have what's called the great falling away.
35:33You can't have boring Christianity.
35:35It's got to be hype Christianity.
35:38And so, picture the stadium mentality.
35:41Picture Lou Engel.
35:42He says, we've got stadium Christianity, and you keep going stadium after stadium, next event, next event.
35:47And people go to those from event to event to event.
35:51What would happen if he would say, okay, the next time we're all going to go sit in a room,
35:56and we're going to bow our heads, and we're going to be quiet, and we're going to pray to God
36:00for an hour?
36:03Who's going to come back to this?
36:05Right.
36:05You can't have boring Christianity.
36:08And yet, at the same time, the boring Christianity is what the Bible is describing.
36:12The hype is what the Bible is saying Jesus avoided.
36:15And I think that's probably why one of Mike's primary messages was enjoyable prayer.
36:20It was one of the things he talked about, because nobody wants to sit in a room and pray all
36:23day.
36:26We're not made to sit in comfy chairs for eight hours a day and stare at the ceiling.
36:30It's just not supposed to happen.
36:32But it makes me think of that's why – I don't think anybody ever called it an enemy or anything
36:38directly like that.
36:39But burnout and disillusionment were combated heavenly against, and those were things that were talked about, becoming disillusioned and letting
36:48your heart be offended.
36:49And if you're burned out, you must be striving in the flesh, and stuff's not making sense.
36:55But I want to throw a phrase at you that I think kind of segues our conversation.
37:00Does the phrase, no news but good news, mean anything to you, John?
37:04More than you know.
37:05We actually had songs with that as the chorus.
37:08No way!
37:08I was not expecting that response at all.
37:10In fact, that song's going off in my head at this moment.
37:14Everybody knows.
37:17So, I ended up – granted, I just started driving.
37:21I had my – I think I had a 95 Toyota Camry that had like 200 and some thousand miles
37:28on it that was given to me by one of my dad's coworkers.
37:30And that's a different story.
37:32But it had a tape player in it.
37:34And so, the only thing I could listen to when I was driving either, I had to do the little
37:37CD connector, if y'all remember those.
37:39It was that the cord came out of the cassette hole, and you plugged it into the CD headphone jack,
37:43or I had to listen to cassettes.
37:44That was my only form.
37:45The radio didn't work too well, the radio antenna.
37:48And they had done some cleaning out of one of the closets at the church.
37:53And I'd come into the church lobby one day, either on my way in or way out, and I saw
37:58these tapes sitting there.
37:59So, I started thumbing through them, and it had signups and free take whoever wants, you know.
38:04And I saw one – I can't even remember what it was labeled, if I'm being honest.
38:08I can't remember what made me pick it up.
38:10But I remember whenever I popped it in, I remember what I now know as Mike Bickle's voice, and Paul
38:18Cain is who it was.
38:19I wish I could find this tape.
38:21It probably got trashed somewhere.
38:22But that was the first time I'd heard him begin to talk about stadium Christianity.
38:28And if you put yourself in my shoes, as at this point, I'd been leading worship probably two years.
38:34I was about 16 years old.
38:36And I'm hearing this story painted to me.
38:42And this is probably – I don't know if you've talked about this a whole lot, but it's probably an
38:46underrated skill that we've probably not talked about a whole lot.
38:49But I imagine it comes from, like, the voice of healing stuff and all that kind of thing.
38:52The way that they're narratively able to describe something and put you in the moment.
38:57As I heard Paul tell the story of this vision, quote-unquote, that he had of the stadium.
39:04And it was in Kansas City at this time, whenever he tells the story.
39:07It was Arrowhead Stadium.
39:09And he talks about this almost like flying in shot of this news anchor standing at the top of the
39:17stadium.
39:17And he's hearing them say there's no news but good news.
39:21That pretty much the whole world is shut down because of this revival that's happening.
39:26People aren't filling stadiums because of their favorite football teams or anything like that.
39:32If anything, the teams are giving their stadiums to these revivals so they can use them because nowhere else can
39:38hold all the people that are coming.
39:42And there was the idea of – that was the first time I'd heard the idea of nameless faceless, that
39:48there was a nameless faceless people on the platform.
39:50They were rotating.
39:51I can't remember what the time frame feels like every three days or something like that.
39:55They were going for, like, crazy amounts of time.
39:57And they were doing these shifts and rotations.
39:59And the thing that I remember was the healing aspect, that it was – I can't remember if this phrase
40:09was used, but this was an IHOP lore, prophetic history phrase, was that no disease known to man would stand
40:15among this people.
40:17But I remember them talking about taking people in on stretchers into this tent, and that some of them were
40:25dead.
40:26Some of them weren't even sick.
40:27They were dead.
40:28And they were coming out healed and alive.
40:31And I remember being 16 years old and thinking, man, if I could be a part of something like this,
40:37if God could use me for something like this.
40:41And at this point, I may have known Mike Bickle's name, but I did not know the house of prayer,
40:48and I did not know that they did 24-7 worship and prayer.
40:53So that set me up for something, definitely, as time went on, and I discovered the house of prayer.
40:59But it was this vision of grandiosity that it gave me, that Stadium Christianity did.
41:06I remember having moments, I guess, pictures in your mind, we call it vision, in your mind's eye, of me
41:17leading worship at big events like this.
41:19And that's where – I think that was my idea of success.
41:22And it wasn't the numbers.
41:23It wasn't the people.
41:24It was the – at least that's what I told myself.
41:28It was the impact.
41:30It was that you were being used by God.
41:35Yeah, we had such a corrupted sense of self, a very inflated sense of self to the point this is
41:43unrelated.
41:43But I remember at one point during that same period opening the book of Isaiah and reading something about the
41:48servant of the Lord and thinking it was talking about me.
41:51So that's how inflated the ego gets and the self gets.
41:55Whenever you're in these environments, you think that you are God's answer for humanity, that if you don't do it,
42:02who will?
42:03Who will go if you don't go?
42:04Those are the things we were told in the altar calls.
42:07But that was my introduction to Stadium Christianity, John, was that conversation between Mike and Paul.
42:15And later I began to see it.
42:18So, I mean, you can imagine 2007, which had been around that same time, shortly after, when Lou did his
42:25big 7707 event in Nashville where they filled Titan Stadium.
42:29And I remember it vividly.
42:33It was formative for me.
42:34It was.
42:35It was very formative.
42:36What I find most interesting about the Stadium Christianity is that it came from – it was developed from the
42:45birthing of the Restoration Christianity.
42:47We're starting to restore the church.
42:50We're restoring the apostles.
42:52Not many people have made this connection, but Charles Fox Parham's movement was called the Apostolic Faith.
42:58And so, now you've got the Apostolic Faith Missions of John G. Lake.
43:02You've got the Apostolic Networks.
43:03He was restoring apostles to the church.
43:05That's what he was doing.
43:07He's the father of this movement, though some people try to reject or deny him.
43:11But they were trying to restore early Christianity.
43:15And it developed into this weird thing that does not in any way resemble Christianity.
43:21How many of these people who are in this Stadium Christianity, Lou Engel,
43:25how many would say, now, when we leave here, instead of meeting at a big event the next time,
43:31instead of this big stadium, I want you to bring somebody from your work to your home,
43:36and I want you to meet in your homes in groups of two or three,
43:39and I want you to share the gospel with them and not send any money to me.
43:44It's just not going to happen.
43:45That's not what – or, even better, we're going to –
43:49After you convert them, bring them back to the stadium.
43:51After you convert and bring them back, even better, we've made quite a bit of money during this event.
43:57What we're going to do is give each of you money, and I want you to go out into your
44:00local park,
44:01and I want you to set up a table with food.
44:03I want you to invite the poor and needy, and I want you to feed them,
44:07and I want you to tell them the gospel.
44:09I want you to share the gospel with them.
44:10We'll supply everything.
44:12We'll give you the money.
44:13It's just not going to happen.
44:14Or, you know, if you really think about how Christianity truly spread,
44:19we want you to go across to other nations and be persecuted.
44:23Come join me in being persecuted, because we're going to spread Christianity across the world.
44:29They had, from the initial inception of this movement,
44:33they had the initiative that it was to share the gospel to the world,
44:37so we need a movement, and they created a movement.
44:39But then the movement stopped that agenda.
44:42They really don't want to spread it.
44:43What they want to do instead is attract you to send them money.
44:47And if you haven't caught on to the theme that I'm trying to hint at here,
44:51there is a thread that binds all of this together.
44:55Money?
44:57It's money.
44:58I don't think I've been to a single one of those events either, John,
45:00where whether it be a one-thing conference where they had, like,
45:04the big Bartle Hall rented out convention center,
45:07or any of the call events, or any of that stuff,
45:12that I didn't see a plea at some point of,
45:15we're not meeting our expenses.
45:17We need you to give what you need to give.
45:19And, you know, this event costed this much money,
45:22and we only have this much, please.
45:24And I'm like, I think half the time it was probably BS.
45:27Yes, like, after I see things, like, especially nowadays,
45:31I'm so thankful for the people who've, like, put in the work to show,
45:36you know, allegedly what Sean Foyt has done with his money that he has made
45:41from his COVID super spreader, Jesus Christ super spreader,
45:47little lettuce worship movement that he had.
45:50And that, you know, like, a thing like that has real costs,
45:54but him being able to buy five properties after the fact is a little sus.
46:01And yet, when you got grandmas, like, that's the thing.
46:04And that's, like, why televangelists are so sleazy.
46:06You got grandmas there who, you know,
46:08they're not making their unfixed income,
46:10and whatever nest egg they got is what's supposed to last them,
46:13and they start manipulating, and God's telling you,
46:16you got a number in your head, and God's telling you to give 10 times that.
46:20Like, that's the kind of stuff that they would do,
46:21and they would feel like they had to.
46:23And that poor grandma, she would think she would give that,
46:26and then, you know, the next day,
46:28she'd get a check in the mail for $10,
46:30and she'd be like, God heard my prayer.
46:32It's like, Grandma, that's the percentage of what you gave.
46:35But it's, yeah, money's at the root of all of it.
46:38It's crazy how it's used.
46:41It's money and attendance.
46:43You know, I was thinking about this.
46:45Not many people have made this connection, either.
46:47In the early days of the revival,
46:49rapture theology was that Jesus would come like a thief in the night,
46:53just as the Bible said.
46:55It's going to be a small group,
46:56and we're going to be carried away before the tribulation.
46:59That was the chain of events that was to happen.
47:02And then what happened next,
47:04after the sudden surge of the battles for the largest tent,
47:08getting the biggest crowd into the movement,
47:11getting the hype, the energy,
47:13well, who's going to be energetic about coming back to this thing
47:16if you're going to be taken away silently in your home,
47:19and it's going to happen any moment.
47:21Oh, no, John, blowing up a world right now.
47:23Well, what has happened is
47:27the doctrine actually shifted to the kingdom theology
47:30from that version of rapture theology.
47:32And so if you really take a step back and think about this,
47:35when all these people come into this event, this stadium,
47:40Stadium Christianity is trying to show you
47:42the kingdom developing here on earth.
47:45And that's really what happened.
47:46You cannot make the argument
47:48that we're going to be silently taken away,
47:49and where two are gathered, one will be taken, one will be left.
47:53That type of biblical argument can't stand
47:55in the stadium revival movement.
47:57So you have to abandon everything that Jesus said
48:00about how the end of days will play out.
48:02Instead, we're going to see it fulfilled before our very eyes
48:05in this very event.
48:06Come see the rally.
48:07We're going to see the third great awakening.
48:09It's going to happen, folks.
48:11That's what they do.
48:12It's more like a circus.
48:13Step right up.
48:14Step right up and see the kingdom right here at hand.
48:16I don't know how the book of Joel became central to all of that.
48:20I mean, we've talked about Joel's army
48:22and all that kind of stuff,
48:22but the way that Mike would talk about it,
48:25because they weren't shy about it,
48:27like the stadium thing,
48:28it was talked about all the time.
48:30Like there was going to be the great harvest
48:32and it's the billion soul harvest,
48:34I think is what Mike would call it.
48:35And he would steal that phrase from the book of Joel
48:38and he would say,
48:39it's going to be the great and terrible day.
48:42He said, it's going to be the greatest revival,
48:45the greatest light of all time
48:47during the time of greatest darkness.
48:50And so those eyes were pitted against each other
48:52and they use that framework of Joel
48:54for the solemn assemblies
48:55is kind of the way that they couched it all.
48:58Well, it's curious looking back at it now,
49:04just seeing how much we bought into it is the idea.
49:08Even in the prophetic history,
49:10part of what we looked at,
49:11and it wasn't prophesied over me,
49:13but I have friends who would probably go on the record
49:16and say it was prophesied over them by senior leaders,
49:19that they were going to have a procession
49:23from Grandview from where the FCF building was,
49:27which I think they don't own now.
49:28I think they sold it, which is peculiar.
49:32It was at the FCF building
49:33and the road that the intersection it sits at,
49:37it goes all the way,
49:38I think it's called Blue Ridge,
49:39the Blue Ridge Procession.
49:41And it goes all the way to Arrowhead Stadium.
49:44And they would talk about,
49:45and they had a number for it
49:46and you may know the number.
49:46I can't remember how many apostles it was and stuff,
49:49but they had all these apostles
49:51that were going to lead this procession.
49:53I'm not sure if Mike's Golden Chariot
49:54came into play there or not,
49:55but they were going to process up Blue Ridge
49:58all the way to the stadium.
49:59And that's how the revival was going to happen.
50:02And what's really ironic,
50:04if we want to go here,
50:05a little full circle moment
50:07is before Mike Bickle's exposure and stuff,
50:10they kind of tried to self-fulfill this prophecy
50:12and they marched up Blue Ridge
50:14with a bunch of them and got a tent
50:16and went and ended up at the stadium
50:17and tried to get clever angles
50:19to show that the stadium was full.
50:21And really, you look at it
50:22and there was only people on the field
50:23and hardly anybody in the Arrowhead seats.
50:25It was just maybe a couple thousand people.
50:29But that was the world we were living in.
50:32And people would tell us,
50:33you were going to be them.
50:35They would say,
50:35you're going to be the nameless faceless.
50:37That's who you are.
50:39But for us,
50:40we didn't know that nameless faceless
50:42meant broke and abused.
50:45Like that's what it ended up being.
50:48Instead of nameless faceless,
50:49we were all broken up the creek without a paddle.
50:52And that's why we're all flopping around
50:54in our 30s and 40s
50:55trying to figure out life still.
50:56And what's interesting is
50:58it came from this weird anti-biblical vision
51:01that Branham claimed he had.
51:02He was seeing the same army marching through.
51:05And the details he gave was that
51:08he saw this one group go through
51:11and they said that this is Paul's people.
51:13We learned the message of Paul.
51:15And then the next group
51:16would have the different messenger.
51:17And when it came to his people,
51:19his being Branham,
51:21he said,
51:22I preached the same message that Paul preached.
51:24And they all said,
51:24yes, we're resting on that.
51:26And what he was trying to display
51:27is that each platoon in the army
51:32has the general.
51:33And he being the general of the end-time army
51:36for his group,
51:37well, what has happened is
51:39Paul Cain apparently carried that forward.
51:42I was going to say,
51:42that sounds very familiar.
51:44I can't play,
51:44I don't know if I've heard you tell this before
51:46or if I was setting it in certain,
51:48but I feel like I heard Mike
51:49tell something very similar
51:50of the groups of people walking by
51:52and God telling him who they were,
51:53an angel or somebody.
51:55This is bringing back something.
51:56You're unlocking something.
51:57Yeah, there's so much there.
51:59And it all goes back
52:00to a misinterpretation of Joel
52:02that began with Pentecostalism.
52:05They took everything out of context
52:06for British Israelism.
52:08And the specific passage
52:10for the early Pentecostals
52:11was,
52:12I will pour my spirit out on all flesh.
52:14That was from Joel 2.28,
52:17if I remember correctly.
52:18But Joel also has the latter reign,
52:20the former reign.
52:21So that was the next iteration.
52:23Well, the last iteration
52:25has to go back to Joel
52:26because if you believe
52:27the other two iterations
52:28are true movements of God
52:29and we're the same movement,
52:31you have to bind it all together.
52:33So anyway,
52:34I was curious
52:36what you thought
52:36about Stadium Christianity.
52:37And again,
52:38I've talked about it briefly,
52:40but I don't know
52:40that I've took a deep dive.
52:42Yeah, I'm not sure
52:43that we deep dove today.
52:45We kind of talked about it.
52:46But I'm even having,
52:48as we're talking,
52:48I know we're wrapping up,
52:49but I'm having the thoughts
52:50of what the stuff,
52:51video clips I've seen
52:52of what happened in Germany
52:53and the things
52:54and how they rallied people
52:55and the big groups
52:55and the songs
52:56that they would sing
52:57and the different things
52:58that would happen.
52:58I'm like,
52:58this is the same kind of thing.
53:00Like it,
53:01yeah, there's a lot here.
53:02Yeah, definitely a lot here.
53:04Well, thank you so much
53:05for doing this.
53:06This is making me
53:08want to dive even deeper.
53:09I think this is important.
53:11Well, the Lord's
53:11calling you deeper, John.
53:15Absolutely.
53:17Well, if you've enjoyed our show
53:18and you want more information,
53:19you can check us out on the web.
53:20You can find us
53:21at william-branum.org.
53:22For more about the dark side
53:24of the New Apostolic Reformation,
53:25you can read
53:26Weaponized Religion
53:27from Christian Identity
53:28to the NAR.
53:29Available on Amazon,
53:30Kindle, and Audible.
53:58Weaponized Religion
53:58talking in 64-Disme
53:58and haben-branum.
53:59Weaponized
53:59variably
53:59desdeigkeiten
54:00ink
54:00in changes
54:00NAR. Weaponized布
54:11qui E on
54:13on
54:14and
54:16ra
54:21qui市�
54:23ambition
54:24by
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