YWAM, Submission, and the Cost of Laying Down Your Rights | Jenny McGrath & Shelby Hoffer | 657 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

Former YWAM members Jenny McGrath and Shelby Hoffer join John Collins to examine the culture, theology, and structure of Youth With A Mission (YWAM).  Drawing from decades of combined experience inside the organization, they discuss the doctrine of "laying down your rights," the pressure to separate from family and former support systems, the concept of being "ruined for the ordinary," and the belief that YWAM itself is a unique calling.  The discussion explores how these ideas compare to earlier movements such as the Latter Rain, Shepherding Movement, and other high-control religious environments. Topics include spiritual elitism, identity transformation, submission to authority, YWAM's emphasis on hearing the voice of God, fundraising culture, outreach programs, leadership structures, and the challenges former members face after leaving.  Shelby and Jenny also share firsthand experiences from YWAM bases around the world, discuss reports of abuse and accountability failures, and explain why many former members believe deeper structural reform is needed.  Topics include:  • Lauren Cunningham's "Making Jesus Lord" and "laying down your rights" • Family separation and "time set apart for God" • The concept of "YWAM DNA" • Spiritual elitism and missionary exceptionalism • Identity change and group conformity • Abuse reporting and accountability concerns • Why some former members compare YWAM culture to high-control groups • Whether meaningful reform inside YWAM is possible ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org.

00:00:42And with me, I have my co-hosts and friends, Jenny McGrath and Shelby Hoffer, former members

00:00:47of YWAM.

00:00:48Shelby, Jenny, it's good to be back and to talk about Youth with a Mission and talk about

00:00:54some of the internal makeup and structure of the organization.

00:00:57I have, as you both know, have been digging into it as it relates to the broader charismatic

00:01:03movement, trying to understand how you can move forward in such a way that you're attracting

00:01:10children to go on these missions, if you call them that, into these Youth with a Mission

00:01:15camps.

00:01:16And just to let you in on a little secret, I'm kind of driven because of a statement that

00:01:21my grandfather made in his resignation speech at the Branham Tabernacle.

00:01:27He said that, I know what they're doing.

00:01:29I know what they're doing.

00:01:30They're trying to get at the children, because if they can get to the children, they can get

00:01:33to the parents.

00:01:34And if they can get to the parents, they can get to their pocketbooks.

00:01:39And that's pure, plain and simple why I'm trying to dig into this.

00:01:42I want to understand what this is and why this is.

00:01:46So, I'm glad that you both came back and want to talk about more of the structure of

00:01:51YWAM.

00:01:51It's really interesting that you mentioned that comment, because I was reading through

00:01:57some of the book by Lauren Cunningham called Making Jesus Lord, The Dynamic Power of Laying

00:02:04Down Your Rights.

00:02:05And he was talking about a conversation he had with Keith Green, who was a musician, and

00:02:13he tragically died in a plane crash, but they were having a conversation.

00:02:16They were praying, and he said, Keith was laying face down on the carpet, crying out

00:02:21for lost souls.

00:02:22We asked God for 100,000 young people to go out as missionaries from America, especially

00:02:26those who were 18 and 19 years of age.

00:02:29And it just, it goes on and on.

00:02:30But I was like, specific.

00:02:32That's very interesting.

00:02:33So, yes, it's definitely a part of the youth with a mission.

00:02:39Yeah, it's, as you say that, a story comes to mind, and we'll get more into the YWAM

00:02:45foundational values, one of which is hearing the voice of God and how complicated that can

00:02:50be.

00:02:51And I was thinking about when I was in YWAM, I was doing a school, I was in Montana, and

00:02:57I was certain that I had heard from God.

00:03:01I needed to trust God for my money for outreach, and I did not have it.

00:03:06I was woefully short.

00:03:08And my parents were like, well, just let us help you.

00:03:11And I was like, no, I am supposed to rely on God.

00:03:16And so, then I didn't think I was going to go on outreach, because I was like $1,000 short.

00:03:21And then my leader came and told me, someone made an anonymous donation to our school for

00:03:26$1,000.

00:03:28And for years, I told this story of like, God made this giant breakthrough.

00:03:33And one day, a friend just asked me, so your dad just didn't call and make an anonymous

00:03:37donation because he wanted you to go on outreach?

00:03:40And I was like, oh my gosh, I never even thought that that was a possibility.

00:03:44And I asked my dad, and he's like, I honestly don't remember, maybe, maybe not.

00:03:49And I'm like, that is probably the most likely scenario that my parents had already invested

00:03:54thousands of dollars into my training and into my program.

00:03:58They wanted me to see it through.

00:04:00And so, that trajectory of going to the children, to the parents, to the pocketbook brought up

00:04:06that very, very practical example of how that plays out.

00:04:10Well, you know me, my brain works in mysterious ways.

00:04:15But whenever I see that there is a large sum of money flowing through something, and there

00:04:20are people submitting themselves or forfeiting their rights, I usually go pretty hard towards

00:04:27it to try to figure out what it is and why they're doing it.

00:04:30And part of that ambition, as I said, is my grandfather.

00:04:32But the other part is, I grew up forfeiting my rights.

00:04:36We had, and you don't either one know this, we had a doctrine in Branhamism that actually

00:04:41made its way into the broader movement, the Lateran movement, that a Christian forfeits

00:04:47his rights.

00:04:49And when I heard the title of that book, Making Jesus Lord, Laying Down Your Rights, that came

00:04:54directly from this movement.

00:04:55It's the idea that if you join our movement, you're going to be our kind of Christian, and

00:05:00you're going to submit to us.

00:05:02That's essentially what it's saying, and it's anti-biblical.

00:05:05If you read the book of Acts, you find Paul, he's claiming his Roman citizenship in certain

00:05:11cases where he's claiming that, I have this right, I have this right.

00:05:15And he's doing the opposite of what they're saying, but they want you to believe that

00:05:19if you become a Christian, you will forfeit your rights and submit to them.

00:05:23And I honestly, I did not know that YWAM had a book like this, but I have seen this in

00:05:29other

00:05:30very destructive movements where the followers, they just submit their full being to the leaders

00:05:37and the leaders just wreak havoc in their lives.

00:05:40Yeah, that's certainly a key component of the structure of YWAM.

00:05:49And again, as I was sort of just perusing through some of my notes from the book, you know,

00:05:56they're talking about laying down your rights, and Jesus was showing us how to live our lives.

00:05:59He was showing us how to win over the devil.

00:06:02He was giving us the strategy for accomplishing the greatest job ever given to man, taking over

00:06:06the earth from Satan and winning it back for God.

00:06:09Jesus was showing us that the only way to conquer is to submit.

00:06:13And there's so much in this book that, you know, goes so much along with that.

00:06:21It's really interesting, John, to have that connection made, because that's almost word

00:06:26for word what you just said is written in this book.

00:06:30So it's certainly part of the foundation of the organization.

00:06:36And it's something that we wanted to begin to talk about, looking at some of the foundational

00:06:41values.

00:06:43There was some things that, you know, the previous episodes I had done with you guys, some things

00:06:50that people had, you know, sort of, why are you guys talking about this?

00:06:55And, you know, who are you and you don't even know, because, you know, I had a good experience

00:07:01over here and that sort of thing.

00:07:03And so I just had wanted to reiterate some of the spaces that I've walked in over my 18

00:07:11years in YWAM.

00:07:13I was personally at bases in Colorado Springs, in Kona, Hawaii, Perth, Australia, Phnom Penh,

00:07:20Cambodia, Manila, and back of the Philippines, Brittany, Chattel, and Wieler, Switzerland,

00:07:27Port-au-Prince, Haiti, after a big earthquake.

00:07:30I've worked with clients who have experienced abuse from North America, South America, Europe,

00:07:36Australia, New Zealand, Asia, the Middle East, Northern Africa, and South Africa itself.

00:07:42Um, I've also personally been told these stories or researched probably close to a thousand,

00:07:49if not more, um, personal people's personal stories.

00:07:53I have also worked at leadership at my local level, uh, in member care for YWAM Europe.

00:07:59I was in the leadership team of that as well.

00:08:02And I was part of the global leadership gathering in 2023, which is sort of like a invitation only.

00:08:08The world's top 700 leaders are invited to come to this, you know, massive gathering where we received

00:08:16a deathbed message by Lauren Cunningham saying that YWAM is a calling.

00:08:20And if you leave YWAM, you lose your calling.

00:08:24Um, so there's, I just, I sort of wanted to lay that out in the space of saying,

00:08:30I really deeply understand the pushback that we get when we talk about YWAM people had,

00:08:37you know, maybe really deeply felt like they encountered God in their experiences, um,

00:08:42or they're still in it.

00:08:44I have people that I love very deeply who are still part of the organization.

00:08:47And so we're not here to try to burn it all down or anything like that, but, uh, we do

00:08:56want to talk about the ways that the system attracts and often traps people.

00:09:03And like John, you said, really young people a lot of the time.

00:09:07Um, I know, I think you've had a guest named Daniel.

00:09:10He's talked about this.

00:09:11He's, he's in Norway and he sees sort of, he's YWAM adjacent, sees people sort of sucked

00:09:16into it.

00:09:17Um, Jed Hartley, I think has talked about this sort of in connection, YWAM, I help Casey,

00:09:23Bethel, all sorts of that.

00:09:25So that's just something that I wanted to identify and lay out there as we begin to sort of examine

00:09:33these foundational values and the core beliefs and things like that to try to help to bring

00:09:38understanding for people who are outside of it.

00:09:42Um, and hopefully some shine some light for maybe people who have been inside of it or

00:09:46who are still inside of it to be able to help them maybe turn on that critical thinking a

00:09:53little bit more to begin to engage some of that.

00:09:56Um, and we are very open for good faith questions and, you know, people who are genuinely curious.

00:10:03And I think me and Jenny had a conversation prior where we were saying, you know what, if,

00:10:08we would love to hear, we would love to hear about places where there's been abuse or something

00:10:15horrific has happened and it has been dealt with really well and the victims were cared

00:10:20for and it was reported to the proper authorities and YWAM took responsibility and removed those

00:10:28leaders or whatever.

00:10:29So I think we wanted to sort of put that out as well, that if anybody has stories like that,

00:10:34please, please let us know in the comments, uh, contact John, let us know if that's something

00:10:39that you have, um, cause we would love to know about that.

00:10:43Thanks so much, Shelby.

00:10:44I appreciate just the context and I think I've shared this in, in bits, but I love you laying

00:10:49out your experience.

00:10:50And so, um, just feels important to share.

00:10:53I was sort of grafted into YWAM when I was still in high school.

00:10:58I went to a missions event that my church was having and I was very sure I wasn't going to

00:11:04go on this mission trip to China with YWAM, but the Colorado Springs space was very, very

00:11:10persuasive and got me to go, uh, the summer after I graduated high school.

00:11:15And as I was preparing to go, they convinced me to partake in community nights and then

00:11:22they convinced me that a DTS would be a great idea.

00:11:25And so I sort of got really, really funneled in, um, and I was part of Colorado Springs.

00:11:32I was essentially starting a base in Northern Uganda.

00:11:37I was sending Ugandans down to Southern Uganda to do discipleship training schools so that we

00:11:43could eventually build a base in Northern Uganda.

00:11:46I worked in Sudan, South Africa, Montana, Thailand, Malaysia.

00:11:51I also spent many years in many different places.

00:11:55And just last night, I found an old hard drive of mine that I was going through and it was

00:12:02most of my pictures from YWAM.

00:12:04And I've honestly been feeling so emotional because there were such incredible experiences.

00:12:11There are and were such beautiful people.

00:12:14And one of the things that I'm hoping we can disrupt is this binary.

00:12:20And I think that that's part of what sucks people into cultish or high control religions

00:12:26is that everything is either or.

00:12:28And so we're not actually here to dismiss the beauty and the fun and the relationships and

00:12:35the community that come and we're, we're talking about how those things also get infused with

00:12:42a culture that asks so much of us.

00:12:45And that, uh, as John and Shelby have already said it, it demands you to lay down your rights

00:12:51and your agency as a human being.

00:12:54And so that's the complexity that I'm, I think we're going to be wading into.

00:12:59And I'm, I'm excited to do that.

00:13:01I think this is an important conversation.

00:13:02And I want to bring another aspect of binary.

00:13:05So if you're in a healthy Christian church and you have a youth program, usually it's

00:13:14done like this.

00:13:15The youth work with the ministers or the leaders of the program, but there's another aspect

00:13:20to it where the leaders are also working with the parents because they're training both

00:13:26sides so that both can come together and both can be more, have a more fulfilling Christian

00:13:32life together.

00:13:33In other words, it's bringing families together, not separating them.

00:13:37But when I hear things like the, the massive amount of money that it takes to get into a

00:13:42YWAM base, and then the title of the book, I like, I'm, I'm in shock that you said this

00:13:47because I'm going back through every memory that I have of submission and the doctrines

00:13:51that come with it.

00:13:52When I hear those two things, it's, it's problematic for me.

00:13:55It really is.

00:13:56I have, in fact, just last weekend, weekend before last, I was working with a group from

00:14:02another church and they had a program where the, I believe it was the parents that was

00:14:07working directly with the, the teens and early twenties to show them about the Bible, connect

00:14:14with them, help them grow as a family unit.

00:14:17How can you grow as a family unit if you're taking the children away from the parents?

00:14:21So the next question that I'm going to ask, and I just don't know, was there a component

00:14:26in youth with a mission where they actually work with the parents to join back to the

00:14:30children and bring families together instead of splitting them apart?

00:14:34That's a hard no.

00:14:37Let me actually even quote from this book again.

00:14:41This is probably going to be helpful during this conversation.

00:14:43Uh, so he's beginning to talk about what it means to lay down your rights and to submit

00:14:50your whole will and all of that stuff.

00:14:51And he says for family relationships, as with everything else in life, God's principle always

00:14:57works.

00:14:58We only win when we give up.

00:15:01As we grasp something, we lose it.

00:15:04When we surrender it to God, we gain it.

00:15:07If we hold our loved ones in a tight grip, we end up losing them.

00:15:11Only God deserves to be first.

00:15:13It doesn't work any other way.

00:15:15If we surrender our family to God, we gain them.

00:15:20Um, so there's certainly, and I know that not everybody has experienced this.

00:15:26That's very explicit.

00:15:30Lee said, you know, Hey, we encourage you for the time that you're here, especially if you're

00:15:35in a DTS, uh, maybe don't connect with people back home so much.

00:15:39Some people have had time limits put on them.

00:15:42You can connect only like one hour a week with friends and family back home.

00:15:46We, you know, you're here, you're setting this time apart for God.

00:15:51You know, it's only six months.

00:15:53Like they don't understand, you know, we don't want people to pull you away from this time

00:15:59set apart.

00:15:59There's a, really this language that is this time set apart, this time set apart for God.

00:16:04Uh, you've chosen, you've invested, um, and then it begins to be like, well, people won't

00:16:09understand.

00:16:10And when you come back from your outreach phase, so when you travel then to do hopefully some

00:16:16sort of missions work after your three months lecture phase, then you have a two to three

00:16:20months outreach phase.

00:16:21That's the language.

00:16:22Uh, oftentimes in the debrief, sort of the last week of the course, they will give tips

00:16:29and pointers on how to like share your testimony with people back home.

00:16:33Um, and there is very often this sort of, um, phrasing that is told to these people that

00:16:41people won't understand what you've been through.

00:16:44They won't understand YWAM.

00:16:46Uh, so here's how you can sort of change the YWAM language into language that might be understood.

00:16:51Um, and you're sort of prepared to go back and feel separate because you've had this amazing

00:17:02experience.

00:17:03You've had this encounter with God and you'll not find it in your home church.

00:17:09You'll not find it back in your humdrum, you know, sort of, they, they have a thing they,

00:17:15they say called ruined for the ordinary.

00:17:17You're, you've been ruined for the ordinary.

00:17:19So you can no longer go back to the ordinary and you're probably going to feel that that's

00:17:24what's been told.

00:17:25Like if you're feeling like, oh no, something's missing, then it's because God has ruined you

00:17:31for the ordinary and you have to just come back to YWAM because we're the only ones that

00:17:35understand.

00:17:36Um, so this is something I've heard just all the time.

00:17:40Myriad, this is very, a very common experience.

00:17:43For me, I had an experience of, in many different ways, scripture was taken out of context and

00:17:51used.

00:17:52And so even as we say this, um, and we're talking about this, what comes to mind is that

00:17:57Matthew 19, 29 was always quoted, which was, and anyone who has left his house or brothers

00:18:03or sisters or fathers or mothers or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive

00:18:08a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

00:18:11And it was sort of meant to be like, this is speaking directly to you and you should leave

00:18:18your fathers, your brothers, your sisters, because God is going to give you so much more

00:18:23in eternity and everything in this life was considered an ends to, a means to an end.

00:18:29And, you know, I would often say when I was in YWAM, my body's a machine and I really treated

00:18:35my body and my relationships that way, that everything was just meant to be a functional

00:18:41thing for the end of days or for eternity.

00:18:47All the while, the way that YWAM also functions is building a lot, as we've talked about, of

00:18:54capital wealth in countries and sustaining livelihood for leaders that is very cush, but

00:19:03that's not how I lived and how I think most of the people, especially the younger people

00:19:08in the organization live.

00:19:10And yet another connection that I was unaware of.

00:19:13That was, that was the language that was used in the latter rain movement in the phase whenever

00:19:18it was starting to suck people out of churches.

00:19:21Whenever you talk the leaving rhetoric, you're trying to get people to leave something they're

00:19:25comfortable with and join you, join your mission, if you call it that.

00:19:29In the latter rain, it was called the latter rain message.

00:19:31You were leaving the churches to join the message and you're becoming better than the others.

00:19:37So I guess the next question that that would build up to, you've got the submission, you've

00:19:42got the control, you've got the leaving.

00:19:45Once you left, did they start to train you that you were the elite Christian or you were

00:19:51some level above the other Christians?

00:19:54Yes.

00:19:55Again, it's in the book.

00:19:57I just read it before we got on.

00:19:59It's a really common phrase that we hear in YWAM and it is, God doesn't call the qualified,

00:20:07he qualifies the called.

00:20:09And so there's a lot of grandiosity about if you're called into YWAM, like Lauren Cunningham

00:20:16said, YWAM is a calling.

00:20:18And if you leave YWAM, you lose your calling.

00:20:21So if you are called into YWAM, it doesn't matter how qualified you are, it doesn't matter

00:20:27your expertise, what matters is who you know.

00:20:32And it's very much a system built on personality and relationships.

00:20:39And so that makes you feel very special, you know, like, okay, I have been called.

00:20:45Um, you'll see a really common pattern where you'll, someone will do a DTS and I would say

00:20:51the vast majority of people who do a DTS are then sort of pulled aside by a leader or a

00:20:58staff person in their DTS and said like, Hey, we've been praying and we feel like God is

00:21:02calling you to come back and staff with us.

00:21:05And that feels very special, you know, especially if you have been trauma bonded with these people,

00:21:11um, you have given up so much.

00:21:13You have really done a lot of mental gymnastics to try to come to the point where this is

00:21:19your community.

00:21:21This is your family language is used a lot.

00:21:24Um, and so there is this sense of now I've got a little bit of the secret.

00:21:31Now I I'm sort of in, and now I'm being asked to come back and join staff.

00:21:37Uh, and then maybe once you join staff, I'm being asked to staff to school or I'm being asked

00:21:42to go start a base in another country.

00:21:45Um, so certainly there that, that continues to perpetuate the idea of, we have a secret

00:21:54knowledge.

00:21:54We, we are better than other missions organizations because we are not caring so much about our

00:22:02bodies.

00:22:03Um, because we are going where no one else will go.

00:22:06We'll break all of the rules.

00:22:08We'll break all of the laws of the country, um, to get in, you know, uh, we'll follow the

00:22:14heroes of the faith.

00:22:14So certainly there is an idea of feeling special and being told that you are special because

00:22:23you're called and that people outside don't understand.

00:22:27I'm thinking even just the, the name youth with a mission.

00:22:33It's so much, it it's, it's a military operation for God.

00:22:40And it is this sense of you are the elite, you're the Navy SEALs of the missions organizations.

00:22:47So you have these like special ops that you're supposed to go to.

00:22:52And a lot of the language is military language.

00:22:55Like we're going to go to target nations and these are our target nations.

00:22:59And it's so much of a sense of, uh, grandiosity, I think is a great word.

00:23:05And as a mental health counselor, obviously I'm not going to diagnose people that are not

00:23:10my clients.

00:23:11And what I will say is that part of the structure of YWAM is a narcissistic structure and it tends

00:23:21to suck in, including myself, those of us who want to feel really good, those of us who

00:23:27want to feel really grandiose, those of us who maybe need a little more robust puffing

00:23:33up of ourselves.

00:23:34And if we haven't done a lot of work to try to navigate that, I think that it then favors

00:23:40those types of people who end up in more positions of power.

00:23:45And so I think it's really important to look at kind of the specialized Christian messaging

00:23:51with an ideology of grandiosity.

00:23:55Yeah, because it's so connected relationally that it is becomes about who, you know, if

00:24:02you want to move up in the organization, right?

00:24:04It's really about who, you know, what sort of backroom conversations you're in.

00:24:09Um, I was told when I was part of the member care team for member care Europe that, you

00:24:15know, we were going to these conferences, these YWAM conferences, and, um, you're in a conference

00:24:20all day.

00:24:21I'm tired.

00:24:22I'm an introvert.

00:24:22I want to go to bed.

00:24:24And my teammates were telling me, oh no, we got to go out and drink with the leaders because

00:24:29it's the sort of like after party.

00:24:31And this is where you get known, Shelby.

00:24:34So if you want to be influential in member care, this is where you get known.

00:24:39Because all of these leaders hang out and they drink together and they like hang out

00:24:43until 2am or something.

00:24:44And so it had nothing to do with my qualifications or my experience or the things I'd worked in

00:24:49for years.

00:24:50It was only about, was I willing to, you know, beat my body down to stay up super late night

00:24:56after night, go out, you know, and drink with these people in order to be known.

00:25:01And this was actually when my member care team sort of threw me under the bus at the end

00:25:07of my connection with YWAM there.

00:25:11They sort of sacrificed me because they were told to either get rid of me, like blacklist

00:25:16me, or they would lose all their influence.

00:25:20So it had nothing to do with their, their qualifications, their ability to reach people, to do good member

00:25:27care work.

00:25:27It was, you know, we're going to strip away your influence.

00:25:30We're going to not send people to you if you don't blacklist, you know, this person.

00:25:36So it's very much that interconnected, like you said, that sort of grandiose and narcissistic

00:25:42sort of tendency to want to feel like we have the power over others.

00:25:48So I guess the last question that I would raise before we get really deep into it, with the

00:25:53language that was being spread through the latter rain movement, where you're telling people

00:25:58we need to come out, we need to be separate, we need to leave family, loved ones behind.

00:26:04With that language came another aspect of this, which was a language that was saying something

00:26:09to the effect, you have to put off the old man and bring on the new.

00:26:12We had different ways of phrasing it.

00:26:15But essentially, it was this.

00:26:16It wasn't just a rebirth.

00:26:18It was an alteration of your personality.

00:26:20You won't be the same person once you come into this.

00:26:23And when you combine those two things together, what you have really is an indoctrination into

00:26:28a more deeper control.

00:26:32It edges into mind control, if you understand how mind control works.

00:26:36For me, that was all of the elements that were necessary to create a destructive cult.

00:26:41And it did.

00:26:42It created hundreds of little cults that spun off of this thing.

00:26:45Did they have that type of language?

00:26:47Yes, there was absolutely the language of dying to the old self, dying to your flesh,

00:26:55dying to your desires, in order to be made new.

00:27:00This principle of you've got to give everything up, including who you are.

00:27:06So, your agency, your identity, your instincts, your mind.

00:27:13You know, little by little, it gets chipped away.

00:27:15And that was all with the idea of becoming more mature, becoming more Christ-like, becoming

00:27:23a better YWAMer.

00:27:25One thing that was used a lot was the YWAM DNA.

00:27:29So, people were told if, you know, you're like, hey, I want to be a part of the leadership

00:27:34team or I want to lead something.

00:27:36And it was sort of believed that you weren't like good enough for that yet.

00:27:40They would say maybe like, well, you just don't have the YWAM DNA yet.

00:27:45You've only been here for three years.

00:27:46Like, you don't really have it deeply.

00:27:49And so, then you were constantly trying to remake yourself into the vision of what you

00:27:57were being told you should be looking like, the language you should be using, who could

00:28:03die to themselves the most, who could suffer the most, you know, sort of thing, or who was

00:28:09getting the more invitations to go speak at other places or whatever.

00:28:14So, yes, there was certainly this attitude of, there's the spiritual side of it, of die

00:28:19to yourself, become, you know, more Christ-like.

00:28:21And then there was the really specific missional side of it, of become a better YWAMer.

00:28:29Yeah, I was also thinking about the YWAM DNA and how prevalent that is.

00:28:34And I think it also, and this maybe will dovetail into us getting into the foundations, is that

00:28:41it was also spun into a theology where it was like, if you look in the mirror, you should

00:28:49see nothing but Jesus.

00:28:50And the YWAM DNA was the same thing as God or as Jesus or as this very, very specific image

00:29:00of what God was. And so, it was sort of this, this theology and this spirituality of, I need

00:29:07to keep emptying myself and become more like Jesus, who just so happened to look a lot like

00:29:14Lauren Cunningham and the other leaders in YWAM.

00:29:18Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of

00:29:23modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe

00:29:29movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?

00:29:32You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

00:29:37william-branham.org.

00:29:39On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles

00:29:44Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and

00:29:51digital versions of each book.

00:29:53You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

00:29:59movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking

00:30:04the Contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or

00:30:10video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical

00:30:14Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:30:18So that combination, when you mix all of those different things together, it is the recipe

00:30:23that's necessary for mind control. Especially, I mean, the put off the old person, put on

00:30:28the new, that language itself, you can read books of what this does to your psyche. You're

00:30:34basically telling yourself that you must deny yourself. I was in one of the, it was a mainstream

00:30:39church I was in, and they were trying to tell me that it was a sin to be angry, which

00:30:43I think

00:30:43I've talked, it might have been with you, Jenny, that we talked about this. And that's something

00:30:47that just literally puts a leash around your neck, because every person is going to have

00:30:52an emotion that's built into your human makeup, your DNA. You're going to have it. And a healthy

00:30:56person, instead of being trained to deny that they have this, they're trained instead to be

00:31:02able to control this. And your anger, do not sin, is what Paul said. So anytime that you tell

00:31:07people that you're going to change your personality, you're going to alter your personality, you're

00:31:12going to alter your psychological makeup, leave your friends and family behind, join

00:31:17us, become the spiritual elite, and submit, these elements are what hijack the brain.

00:31:23And that's, for somebody who is under the age of 30, I'm looking at the ranges of people

00:31:30inside of Youth With A Mission, this is the group of people who are most susceptible to this

00:31:35kind of indoctrination. So for me, this is a little bit scary, what you're telling me.

00:31:41Yeah, it is certainly something that becomes very formulaic. So they talk a lot about following

00:31:52principles, you know, principles that are found, quote unquote, found in the Bible. And you see this

00:31:58even in Making Jesus Lord, you see it in, of course, the other books that Lauren Cunningham has

00:32:03written and the books that you're often required to read if you're doing any sort of training with

00:32:09and why win. And so it becomes a formula, you know, so that's, you see like prosperity gospel

00:32:14teaching, you know, that if you give up your money, if you give up your stuff, then you will receive

00:32:20something back. And it's simply to, it's most common to quote it as this is a principle,

00:32:25this is a life principle, it's a biblical principle, you do A plus B, you get C. And so

00:32:32that feels very powerful. If you think, well, I can get the secret formula, I'm being taught and

00:32:38told the secret formula. And then like Jenny said, you know, if you're like, I'm praying for this money

00:32:43or something like that. And, you know, some anonymous donation comes in and you're like,

00:32:48it was the Lord, the formula worked. When really it was, you know, Aunt Susie or, you know, grandpa

00:32:55behind just super concerned about you and your wellbeing and wanting to make sure that you are getting what

00:33:00you need. Um, so the, the fact that they present various formulas as the way to get what you need

00:33:12or want to become closer to God, uh, closer to God, quote unquote, um, to, you know, achieve some sort

00:33:23of

00:33:25higher transcendence, uh, spiritually or practically that feels really, um, enticing because of course

00:33:34we want to feel in control. And here's someone telling you, well, if you do this, if you lay

00:33:40down all of your rights, then God's going to, you know, if you lay down your rights to marriage,

00:33:44God's going to give you a spouse. If you lay down your right to, you know, safe housing, like,

00:33:50well, I don't know anybody that actually has safe housing in a lot of parts of the world.

00:33:54Um, so it's, it becomes formulaic, which is, is very, uh, yeah. Enticing for people. I think,

00:34:02especially like you said, young people whose frontal cortex is not fully formed. They're

00:34:06out there in the world. They're unsure of what they should be doing, where they should be going.

00:34:11And then here is a sort of ready-made group of people saying, Hey, we are very happy to tell

00:34:19you what to do and where to go. Yeah. And so I think maybe even just getting into that a

00:34:24little

00:34:24bit more and even what those principles look like could be illuminating for folks. And so one of the

00:34:31principles or a cluster of the principles is known as YWAM's foundational values. And if it's okay,

00:34:40I'll just read number one. You can find these online, they're public knowledge. Um, but the one

00:34:45says to know God, which is like, great, awesome. Who wouldn't want to know God? Uh, but we'll get

00:34:51into a little bit more of how this actually plays out. And it says, YWAM is committed to know God,

00:34:58his nature, his character, and his ways as revealed in the Bible and inspired an authoritative word of

00:35:04God. We seek to reflect who he is in every aspect of our lives and ministry. Automatic overflow of

00:35:11knowing and enjoying fellowship with God is desired to share him with others. And so, I read this as a

00:35:21woman and I see in a very short paragraph, there are five he's and him's that describe God. And so,

00:35:30I go, okay, what does that look like for me to know God in my own self and in my

00:35:36own identity and body?

00:35:37And one of the things that I have seen consistently across various nations and countries is the pretty

00:35:46misogynistic sexist structure of YWAM, that it is more kind of what you would call complementarian,

00:35:54which is like men are created to lead and women are called to their husbands. And it becomes this

00:36:01power imbalance. And so, the discrepancy between who gets to keep their rights and who has to give

00:36:08them up is even in the very first value. And we can talk more about that. But that is one

00:36:14of the

00:36:14things that sticks out to me the most is the strong gendered language of a God that, again, looks very

00:36:23similar to Lauren Cunningham. And your proximity to looking like Lauren Cunningham is probably going to

00:36:29influence the power and privilege you have in that institution.

00:36:33We've talked before about Dr. Stephen Hassan's book, Combating Cult Mind Control.

00:36:38He goes deep into what it means to be programmed. And so, that people who are submitting themselves to

00:36:45this kind of thing can recognize that something has happened to their brain that's outside of their

00:36:49control. I'm curious what it looks like on the other side. So, we've talked about the recipe

00:36:55for what could potentially control minds within Youth with a Mission. But now, let's talk about the

00:37:01other side. It goes more than textbook because you even see this in the movies. You'll find these groups

00:37:07of people in movies who are joining cults in movies. And they're saying things about how bad they were

00:37:13before, what life was like before joining, how awful it was. We were doing the wrong thing, saying we

00:37:20believe the wrong things. There's just a – it takes putting off the old man to a new level because

00:37:27what's happening essentially is their identity is changing and morphing to become the group's

00:37:33identity. And anything that does not match the group's identity, they see as wrong, whether it's

00:37:38wrong or not. What did it look like once you joined from the youth side? Did they have this type

00:37:45of

00:37:46aspect happening to them? Yes. You're always told, once a YWAMer, always a YWAMer.

00:37:54I find that hard now that I've left. There's an incredible sense of belonging when you join. It's

00:38:05often, you know, very warm, very – there's a lot of excitement. You know, people are there to

00:38:13get closer to God. And I think especially for a young adult who's sort of getting out into the

00:38:21world for the first time maybe, that can feel really scary to feel like I'm not sure what I'm

00:38:27going to do with my life or maybe I'm taking a gap year and I'm going to do this, you

00:38:31know, DTS

00:38:31sort of thing. And so, too, I think, be offered such a complete space where they will take care

00:38:42of your spirituality, they will take care of your relationships, they will take care of your

00:38:48finances, they'll tell you what to do with your money, essentially. You know, all of these

00:38:55things, you know, if you're having mental health challenges, they'll help you pray it away,

00:38:59quote-unquote. It just – it's a package deal in so many ways for so many people. And certainly,

00:39:09people come do a DTS and they're like, that's fine. That's great. That's enough. Thank you. Bye.

00:39:15But unfortunately, we see, you know, tens of thousands of people who get into that very full

00:39:22identity and that becomes their identity where you don't have time or maybe energy to engage

00:39:29outside of the organization to go to local church or to make local friends or to learn a language of

00:39:35the country that you're living in. So, does that answer your question about that, John?

00:39:40Yeah.

00:39:40I'm just thinking about what it would be like if this were reframed to know yourself and how,

00:39:50if it was an institution that honored and privileged true diversity and people living and looking and

00:39:59loving differently, that to me is healthy. It's when it becomes this monoculture and it feels good

00:40:07so long as you begin to assimilate and, you know, I think in almost every school I was in,

00:40:15there was probably at least one person that was also sent there to, like, straighten them out.

00:40:20And maybe by the end, they were straightened out because they're like, wow, this is actually really

00:40:25great. And then what happens when that person goes home? You know, it's like, things can be good

00:40:33until you start to ruffle feathers, until you start to ask questions and still, until you start to say,

00:40:39hey, how come the only gender we have for God is he? Then things really quickly shift and you get

00:40:47labeled a Jezebel or you get labeled a divisive or like these very strong retributions that come

00:40:56if you just step out a little bit of what the culture says you're supposed to be.

00:41:02I want to go back to something that you were discussing earlier about whenever the youth goes

00:41:09on the mission, suddenly the contact with the parents is severed. There was a group here that

00:41:16was labeled a destructive cult by some of its members. I won't give the name, but they were

00:41:21doing the same thing. The children would go to this youth retreat or this youth camp. And whenever they

00:41:27did, they had to forfeit their cell phones, no email, no text, no outside communications. And the

00:41:32parents were not allowed to contact him through the entire I don't know what it was week two weeks,

00:41:37whatever. And suddenly, there was an issue. And one of the parents raised a ruckus because they

00:41:44can't get access to the child, which is problematic. If you're a parent, you realize how bad this is.

00:41:49Now, granted, this was much younger people than you're dealing with, of course. But the issue remains

00:41:55the same. If it's something that is transparent, you wouldn't care if the parents are contacting,

00:42:01hey, we're training your youth to become better. They're becoming better. See, watch along. Watch

00:42:08as the progress happens, right? In fact, I was talking to, I can't remember which denomination

00:42:15it was, but they had sent their children on some sort of a youth retreat camp. And nightly,

00:42:19pictures were posted so they could see what's happening. They had full access to the child at

00:42:24any time they could call, get to the camp authorities. It was just so transparent. I'm curious what it's

00:42:30like from the parent's side as well. Well, to my experience and the experience of the people and

00:42:36the clients that I've worked with, the parents weren't given a choice. The parents weren't

00:42:42contacted by YWAM to inform them of anything. There is, I think, on YWAM.org, potentially,

00:42:50there's a sort of like notes for parents, or maybe that was on a specific base I was looking at.

00:42:54So, some bases will have that sort of like if you have frequently asked questions,

00:42:59but it's still I've not seen where there's been like an active participation towards getting the

00:43:06parents to remain in contact with their young people. It's most often, hey, parents, this is a

00:43:12time set apart for God. So, trust us. We've got your kids. That's okay. Certainly, I remember by the

00:43:22time I was in Perth, Australia, I was 27. And they didn't forbid us to speak to our family at

00:43:31that

00:43:32point because I was in a second level school. But they made it extremely difficult to contact

00:43:38anybody outside of the country. And like you couldn't go out. You could only use a payphone.

00:43:46They wouldn't provide any sort of like care or space for you to call. This was before like

00:43:51Wi-Fi or smartphones and things like that. And you, as a woman, you couldn't go find a payphone on

00:43:59your own. You had to have someone else come with you because it, quote unquote, wasn't safe enough

00:44:04in the neighborhood that the base was in. So, you had to sort of beg someone, hey, I've got to

00:44:11go find

00:44:11where I can buy like a phone card and like an international phone card. And then I have to

00:44:17beg someone to come with me to go find a payphone somewhere. And I have to time it so where

00:44:22I can

00:44:22actually speak with my family. And then they have to just sit there. And they couldn't sit more than

00:44:28like two meters away from you or something like that. Like there was also a rule about how far

00:44:33the person, as a woman at least, I think for men it was different, you know, that the person couldn't

00:44:37be,

00:44:38it was more than six feet. They couldn't be more than six feet away from you. And this was part

00:44:42of

00:44:42the accountability, keeping accountability so that like you didn't say things to your family that would

00:44:50shine poorly on the base there. And I remember like sort of speaking into the phone to my older sister

00:44:59and I was like, I think I might be part of a cult. She was like, I think you might

00:45:05like, do we need to

00:45:05kind of get you, you know, in Australia? And I was like, no, it's okay. Like I've put so much

00:45:11money

00:45:12and time into this. Like I can tough it out. I can make it, you know, I'm so close to

00:45:16getting this

00:45:16quote unquote degree done. Um, that, you know, it was, it was wild actually to experience that where I

00:45:26wasn't even allowed to have a private conversation. Someone had to, and I was, you know, 27 at that

00:45:33point. So not, you know, not a young'un, like so many people that were there. Um, so from my

00:45:39experience and the people that I've worked with over the years, the parents are not actively involved.

00:45:46Yeah. My experience was similar. It was also pre iPhone, smartphone, and it sort of wasn't like

00:45:55talked about, don't talk to your family, but there's no privacy. You know, I, I always had at least

00:46:02one roommate, usually three, um, shared bathrooms, shared common spaces, probably a remote base that's

00:46:13really hard to get anywhere else and similar rules don't go out without other people. Uh, and so when

00:46:20I was on outreach, my very first DTS, well only DTS, but my first like entry level school, my outreach,

00:46:27a month of it was in the red light district in Thailand and we were 18, 19, 20 year olds

00:46:34going

00:46:34into bars, which was incredibly unsafe and traumatizing for all of us for different reasons.

00:46:42And we maybe would have one day a week, we could go to an internet cafe on our own time

00:46:49and send an

00:46:49email, but none of us had phones or really ways to message. Uh, and so it was sort of, um,

00:46:56I don't know

00:46:57how much it was, but by design or purpose, but there definitely was a lack of communication,

00:47:03but also similar to that rhetoric of people aren't going to understand you. You're ruined for the

00:47:10ordinary. There was a not so subtle messaging, like your family probably has a spirit of fear. So

00:47:16they're going to worry about you and not understand, you know? And like, I did, I have my brother email

00:47:21and be like, those bars are run by like cartels. What are you doing? And I'm like, I'm fine. Jesus

00:47:28is with us. And again, this grandiosity that everything's going to be okay. Uh, and I have

00:47:37many, many, many, many stories from people across the world where things were not okay. And very

00:47:42horrific things have happened to people that don't get talked about or shared.

00:47:47Darrell Bock I think I read where there are a few last words of the snake handlers who were saying

00:47:51everything's going to be okay, but it's, it's so problematic when you think of how all of this has

00:47:57developed. Interestingly, some of the groups that we have talked about on the podcast have started to

00:48:03reform, whether it's based off of things that we've said or not. There are, there are people who

00:48:10are trying to make positive change. I guess the next question that I would ask you, well, two part

00:48:15question. Number one, do you think YWAM could change? But number two, if they were to change

00:48:20for the better, how would you say, how would you recommend that they change to become better?

00:48:25I've been out of it for about 18 months. And so I'm not too far gone from it. I still

00:48:34have people

00:48:34that I love and care about deeply who are in it. I'm still connected in some ways around the world.

00:48:39Also part of a group on Facebook, spiritual abuse and YWAM Facebook group that has close to 1300

00:48:46members now. And I would say that unfortunately, you see more scandals breaking. And that's somehow

00:48:59thanks to the internet, social media and people, I think even a younger generation who is more aware

00:49:06of their own agency and willing to speak up and share experiences and things like that.

00:49:14There's a big split going on right now at the YWAM Kona base with Fire and Fragrance. Don't ask me,

00:49:22just look it up. And then this, I think it's a DTS maybe called Brave Love. I don't know this.

00:49:28So they're splitting Andy Bird who runs Fire and Fragrance, like essentially YWAM was like,

00:49:34y'all are too cuckoo. We can't have you as part of us anymore. So that's happening in various places.

00:49:41I know YWAM Tyler, Texas, that happened recently. There was two or three instances in YWAM England

00:49:51where sort of YWAM eventually had to come and say, hey, you guys can't use the name of YWAM

00:49:56anymore because it's just gone too far. Unfortunately, in all of those instances,

00:50:02it's been like a years long process and it has been only at the point where the scandal has affected

00:50:15the local community. So I'm not talking about like the YWAM community. So victims have been speaking up

00:50:21for years about these cases, about these instances, trying to see justice done, trying to receive

00:50:28help, trying to get leaders out of those positions. And I'm talking like sexual abuse, like physical

00:50:37abuse, like crazy stuff, as well as very intense spiritual abuse. And unfortunately, up until this

00:50:46point, it does seem like it's only once the scandal touches the local populace in some way, whether

00:50:54it's a local church or something like that, that then YWAM sort of steps in and says, okay, like

00:51:00we've tried and we've tried and we've tried and we've tried and we've tried and we've tried and

00:51:03we've tried to talk to these leaders and to get them to repent and to try to reconcile and to

00:51:08try to

00:51:09hear from all sides, quote unquote, and all of this sort of stuff. And then it's, it's, so it's

00:51:16sort of like the worst of the worst, like the legitimate, like cult leader people that are

00:51:21finally, you know, being like, okay, these guys really won't listen to us as YWAM. And so we have

00:51:27to tell them they can no longer use the YWAM name, even though many of them still are like YWAM

00:51:32Tyler, Texas is still calling themselves YWAM. Like there is a thing on their website that says like,

00:51:39we sort of split amicably and all this stuff. And I'm like, well, that is not the situation.

00:51:47But what can YWAM do? And I think that that's, that's something that me and Jenny have talked

00:51:52about is the, like she was saying earlier about sort of the monoculture that is created

00:52:01where there is supposed to be this decentralization and this like, you know, lots of different flavors

00:52:08and things like that. But ultimately there's one right way to follow. And there is no code

00:52:14of conduct. Like YWAM doesn't have any code of conduct ever. So they have the foundational

00:52:19values, which we'll continue to get in probably on later episodes. You know, they have their

00:52:24covenant words, their four legacy words, I think. And these are all from like Lauren Cunningham.

00:52:31Um, but there is no code of conduct that you sign. And so therefore it's really hard to get rid

00:52:36of

00:52:37people. Uh, it takes a lot for YWAM leadership to finally come and say like, okay, you are too much.

00:52:43Like we actually have to remove you. Um, and I think to answer the second part of your question,

00:52:49John about, you know, what would it take to sort of see YWAM reform? Um, and I have pondered this

00:52:56question for years and I'd love to hear Jenny's take as well, but, um, having been in it as long

00:53:03as I was and having fought as hard as I did for abuse victims, um, including myself in my own

00:53:12situation

00:53:12here in Switzerland, but also sort of globally in the areas that I was working in and trying to

00:53:19advocate for abuse victims within the system of YWAM, we've just seen this systemic and often

00:53:29systematic refusal to take accountability, right? So accountability is certainly a piece. Um,

00:53:39I have found, you know, at some point I thought if we could just get systems, if we could just

00:53:43get

00:53:43policies and procedures in place, if there could just be proper accountability structures, then

00:53:48that would be okay. And I really quickly realized that even if you have accountability structures in

00:53:53place, the culture of the organization, like Jenny was saying, the sort of monoculture, um,

00:54:01exists. And until the culture is changed, I'm not sure we're going to see any real

00:54:08lasting, like repentance and, um, reparations made towards victims, but the culture is so deeply

00:54:17influenced by the theology. And that's why we want to, we, we're looking at the NAR connections

00:54:25to how deeply is this influencing this organization? Like you said, the latter rain over to faith

00:54:31movements, you know, all of these things that have sort of seeped in and flavored, flavored. And when I

00:54:38think about trying to explain to people, the system of YWAM, I sort of try to think of it as

00:54:43like,

00:54:44there's this group of people at the top who are making a cake mix. So that's the founder's circle,

00:54:51you know, Darlene Cunningham, David Hamilton, I think, you know, all of these people that are sort

00:54:58of at that, there are people at the top. And so they're sort of the ones that with the legacy

00:55:03words and the covenant words and all of these things, they're creating this cake mix, right?

00:55:08That they're like, okay, then we have these big conferences, the global leadership conferences,

00:55:12um, where it's all of the, you know, top leaders of the world come together and they're all given

00:55:16this cake mix, but maybe the flour is like rancid. And so they take this cake mix and they're all

00:55:26eating

00:55:26this cake mix. And then they take it back to their little like kingdoms, you know, their little bases

00:55:30and places like this. And maybe they, someone adds in chocolate chips or maybe someone adds in

00:55:36some more butter. Like there's everybody adds their little flavor, but ultimately it's the same

00:55:40cake mix, right? And, and the cake mix is maybe off it's expired or it's, it's got something in it

00:55:49that is going to make you like maybe a little bit sick and people start to eat this cake and

00:55:55you're

00:55:55like, Oh, my tummy doesn't feel really great, but you just keep eating. Right. And then maybe

00:56:00eventually you sort of like get used to it. Like you sort of become immune to it and you're like,

00:56:05Oh, this cake is pretty good. Like it's sustaining me. Like everyone else is eating the cake. Like

00:56:10it's fine. And maybe someone new comes in and they get violently ill from eating the cake.

00:56:16And you're like, well, what's wrong with you? And they're like, this cake mix is bad. Like

00:56:20it's gone off, you know, like the, the ingredients of sour, like we need to change the cake mix.

00:56:27You know, we need to stop importing this cake mix. And that person is often run out, you know,

00:56:32because it's like, well, we're all fine. Like we've eaten the cake and yeah, maybe I have a

00:56:37rumbly tumble sometimes, but, but I'm okay. And then those people are sort of, you know,

00:56:43you just don't get it. You don't like our flavor of cake mix, you know, maybe go to somewhere else.

00:56:47And, and, and maybe someone has sort of sifted the weevils out of their cake mix or they've,

00:56:53they've replaced the flour or something. And so you might find a place where you feel like,

00:56:58oh, their cake is pretty good. Like it's, it's, I don't feel sick when I eat it.

00:57:04And that person's maybe there for some months or some years, and then they leave because the top

00:57:09people don't like the fact that they've changed the cake mix and like taken out the weevils and

00:57:14things like that. So they maybe leave and then someone else comes in who will continue to

00:57:18feed the cake mix from the top. So I think until the cake mix is changed until the recipe

00:57:29is changed, I'm genuinely not sure that we'll see reform because, you know, we've talked a lot

00:57:40about this before, about how it's about souls, not bodies.

00:57:43Yeah, I don't think I have too much to add on that right now, other than the cake mix seems

00:57:51to be

00:57:51working for those who are making it. And so I, I am skeptical, you know, of course, I do think

00:57:58miracles can happen. And maybe there could be a really giant reform. But because the institution

00:58:05is really built on Seven Mountains mandate, and these things that are so missional, I don't have

00:58:17much of an imagination for how it could reform in a way that would care for the bodies within it,

00:58:24other than a massive, massive overhaul. And I haven't seen leaders be enticed by an overhaul.

00:58:35Yet. If you're out there, let us know.

00:58:40One just last thing that I think is really interesting to Jenny's points is the belief

00:58:45by people who are in the organization that, well, we're fine in our, in our location.

00:58:52You know, we're good people. So we're not like them. So I can hear your horror stories,

00:58:56I can care very deeply about the fact that you've been harmed. But like, I'm still going to stay in

00:59:01YWAM because, because my stuff is okay. So it's this interesting paradox between why I'm saying

00:59:08like, we're not a church, you know, we're a parachurch organization, we're a movement. In fact,

00:59:12they call themselves a movement, they're not an organization, they say that. And so we don't have

00:59:17to follow those rules. But then at the same time, it's like, well, that's not my job. You know,

00:59:24I'm not the one like, we're so decentralized, that anybody can do anything. And so it's like,

00:59:31they're trying to carry these two things, that we are a movement, we're all the same. But also,

00:59:37like, I can't deal with whatever's going on over there, because we're decentralized.

00:59:41Well, all of this is concerning. And you actually have answered my last question. Usually, if when

00:59:48a group turns destructive, usually they start to create splinter groups. And you've answered that

00:59:54question. So I won't go there. Thank you so much for doing this. I was really curious to dive deeper.

00:59:59And I hope in the upcoming episodes, we can go even further. Thank you so much.

01:00:03Thank you so much for having us. I'm really grateful we can have these conversations and look

01:00:08forward to getting into them deeper. Awesome. Well, if you've enjoyed our show,

01:00:13and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham

01:00:17.org.

01:00:17For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion,

01:00:22from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:00:45For more information, you can find us at william-branham.org.

01:00:49For more information, you can find us at william-branham.org.

01:00:55For more information, you can find us at william-branham.org.

01:00:57For more information, you can find us at william-branham.org.

01:00:58For more information, you can find us at william-branham.org.

01:01:00For more information, you can find us at william-branham.org.

01:01:01For more information, you can find us at william-branham.org.

01:01:03For more information, you can find us at william-branham.org.

YWAM, Submission, and the Cost of Laying Down Your Rights | Jenny McGrath & Shelby Hoffer | 657

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