- 2 days ago
John Collins and John McKinnon discuss why the Godhead question is one of the most important crossroads between theology and history inside Branhamism and the many splinter groups that birthed the New Apostolic Reformation.
The conversation explores Branham’s shifting statements, the confusion among Message churches, the relationship between Oneness Pentecostalism and Branham’s teaching, and why the doctrine matters for anyone asking whether the Message represents biblical Christianity or something different.
McKinnon also introduces his new books on the Godhead and explains why he believes Branham’s teaching must be compared directly with Scripture and historic Christian belief.
00:00 Introduction
04:21 John McKinnon Introduces His New Books
07:17 Who Is Jesus Christ?
11:10 Why the Message Godhead Is Not Oneness or Trinitarian
16:34 How Message Ministers Handle the Godhead
23:14 Why the Godhead Books Were Written
29:15 The Rapture, Body Change, and Message Revelation
34:15 Confusion Across Message Churches
40:32 Borrowed Doctrines and Manifested Sons of God
46:24 Branham’s Early Direction and Progressive Revelation
50:20 Branham’s Quote About Being Called the Incarnated Lord Jesus Christ
52:26 Closing
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The conversation explores Branham’s shifting statements, the confusion among Message churches, the relationship between Oneness Pentecostalism and Branham’s teaching, and why the doctrine matters for anyone asking whether the Message represents biblical Christianity or something different.
McKinnon also introduces his new books on the Godhead and explains why he believes Branham’s teaching must be compared directly with Scripture and historic Christian belief.
00:00 Introduction
04:21 John McKinnon Introduces His New Books
07:17 Who Is Jesus Christ?
11:10 Why the Message Godhead Is Not Oneness or Trinitarian
16:34 How Message Ministers Handle the Godhead
23:14 Why the Godhead Books Were Written
29:15 The Rapture, Body Change, and Message Revelation
34:15 Confusion Across Message Churches
40:32 Borrowed Doctrines and Manifested Sons of God
46:24 Branham’s Early Direction and Progressive Revelation
50:20 Branham’s Quote About Being Called the Incarnated Lord Jesus Christ
52:26 Closing
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, researcher, and friend, John McKinnon,
00:45author of The Godhead and Their Own Words, Voices of Oneness Preachers of the End-Time Message.
00:51John, it's good to be back and to talk about Godhead and your new books.
00:55Um, this is a, it's a really important subject for me, but yet at the same time, as many
01:02people know, I avoid theology almost entirely on this podcast.
01:06I usually focus on the history because the history I feel is really important to be rewritten
01:12accurately and try to avoid some of the mistakes that historians have made and large errors
01:19that they've made and just history that isn't true.
01:21So I want to publish the history, and at the same time, there are many, many other people
01:27who are much better suited at theology than myself.
01:30However, you brought up your new books.
01:33You wanted to talk about those, which we'll get into those in a bit.
01:36One of them is this Godhead book, and I will say this.
01:40There are cases where the theology and the history really are important at a crossroads.
01:47There's an intersection that really can't be avoided.
01:50The Godhead is one of those cases.
01:53I've not dived too deeply in publishing research about it.
01:58I do have a Trinitarian page and a few other pages, but I'm very careful how I do this because
02:03this is, in my opinion, this is one of the most important subjects that you can cover in
02:08research of Branhamism and what developed from Branhamism.
02:11Because with Branhamism, Branham taught this view on the Godhead, and I actually should
02:18change that to views on the Godhead, which I'll explain in a second.
02:22He taught these views on the Godhead, and that developed into this framework that eventually
02:29started and birthed much of what you see today.
02:33Branham's teachings, because of the way in which they were taught, they developed into the
02:38Manifested Sons of God theology.
02:41Others picked it up and formulated what he said and wrote books on, like, Feast of the
02:46Tabernacles, for example.
02:47You can find books on Branham's Manifest Sons of God doctrine.
02:51Well, it eventually came into the New Apostolic Reformation as the Manifested Sons of God, and
02:57the question that everybody asks, well, 99% of the people who leave and contact me about
03:03this, ask this question, which God was it?
03:07Was Branham teaching the God of the Bible?
03:09Did my church, does my family who are still in it, do they believe the God of the Bible,
03:14or do they believe in a different God?
03:16That's an important question, because if it developed into what we see today, Manifested
03:21Sons of God, and if it was a different God, then you have this huge problem.
03:27You're teaching a different God, which the New Testament strongly condemns this.
03:31So, for me, this is a really, really important question, and I know we're going to talk about
03:36your books, and we're going to talk about the reasons why, but I want to preface it with
03:40this.
03:41That question drove me into digging into theology.
03:44I actually have studied it quite a bit, because I wanted to know for myself, what about my family
03:50who are in the message of William Branham?
03:53Are they lost, or are they saved?
03:55Are they serving the God of the Bible?
03:57Are they serving Jesus?
03:58Are they serving a different God?
03:59And it led me down paths of research that I don't know that I would have went down had
04:04I not had that burning question in my head.
04:06So, with that in the back of your mind, I'll turn it over to you, but this is important,
04:12in my opinion.
04:13Learning whether or not you are believing in the God of the Bible or believing in something
04:17else should be the most critical question that any person who's in any Christian religion
04:23should ask.
04:24Hello, John.
04:25It's great to be here again.
04:26It's always fun to do a podcast with you, and I want to take a little different track
04:31today.
04:31We're not discussing a particular topic as such, but I'm excited about the release of
04:37two new books that I have put in publication now in the last couple of weeks, and they actually
04:43have been a few years in the making.
04:45I wanted to inform all the listeners out there about how everyone might want to get them
04:50a copy that wants one, and I will make them available on Amazon.
04:55I'm not out to make a lot of money off books, and it's quite an investment to get them printed,
05:00and as anyone that's done this will know.
05:03I wanted to use this time just to thank you for allowing me on your platform just to introduce
05:07these resources to everyone.
05:09I will call them resources because I believe that's what they will become.
05:14These books are very informative, and they cover the doctrine that they do cover, and
05:21I'll try to make these so clear to the reader that once they have a chance to digest the
05:25material, it'll leave no doubt in their minds, and they can clearly choose the path they want
05:31to take and what they want to believe.
05:33You know, I purchased this $100 bill recently, and I'll hold it up so you can see.
05:38Just as an illustration, you know, this bill looks very much like a real $100 bill, you
05:44know, except for the picture, you know, on the front.
05:48It looks very much like this one.
05:51So, outwardly, you know, pseudo-Christian groups, they look and act like Christians, very much
05:56like Christians on the outside, and that makes them very deceptive to sincere people.
06:01And the only way to really know this counterfeit, and say if it had Franklin's picture on there,
06:06you could actually put Franklin's picture on this bill, it would be very deceptive.
06:13But the only way to test it is put alongside the real, and then the fake bill can be discerned
06:18pretty easily.
06:19But I'm hoping that what I present today will provide a way for us to eventually lay the
06:23Bible teaching alongside the counterfeits, so the counterfeits can be exposed for what they
06:28are.
06:28You know, this is what I have attempted to do here in these books, and it's certainly
06:32not perfect, but I do hope and provide some information that will be stepping stones for
06:39others, you know, as they move forward and keep studying this.
06:42And I'll have to say that this is probably the most important subject I've ever tried to
06:47tackle, and probably the hardest I've ever tried to put in a form where everybody can
06:52understand it, even myself.
06:54But given the importance of the subject, you know, I think it deserves all the time that
06:58we can give it.
07:00This is probably the most controversial subject ever debated, you know, within the Christian
07:05church, and the most contentious one, too.
07:07So I know I'm treading on holy ground here.
07:10I want to get this right, and I think it's really imperative that all of us who follow Christ,
07:16you know, get this right.
07:17And the question today that I put in these books is, who is Jesus Christ?
07:22And that's what I named the first book.
07:25And this topic has been debated, as you can see, the first book.
07:32So the topic's been debated in the church since the second century, you know, and even today
07:37the debate goes on, and the issue continues to be at the forefront.
07:42And it's not so much because we don't know the answer, you know, it's because the same
07:47old arguments keep being brought up that really diminish Jesus Christ, and they keep being brought
07:52up today.
07:54So this handbook, you know, regardless of your stance on this belief, you know, will be handy
07:59to you.
08:00I'll say it's not neutral in the presentation of the material, but it does give each side
08:06a fair treatment.
08:07I'll also say that since my background for many years was once the message of William
08:12Branham, the book is mainly written and to be helpful to those still in the message.
08:18Probably not all positions on the Godhead are put in this book or articulated that's ever
08:24been produced, but the key ones are there.
08:27Those that are pertinent to the message are there in detail.
08:31You know, every position is put in a systematic way, you know, so there's no question what
08:36each position believes and stands on from the ancient times even to the present day.
08:41And this is so the reader can critically compare each belief with one another.
08:46You know, what is important, you know, through this whole process is that we come away with
08:50a perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ and what his divinity means.
08:54I like how you said that because that's an important topic.
08:58Whenever I first began my research, and I had a different YouTube site that the Branham
09:03followers attacked and brought down whenever I began publishing some very critical information
09:08about Branhamism.
09:09On that site, I had tried to answer that question, the divinity of Jesus Christ.
09:14What does it mean?
09:15Because I had come across some statements made by William Branham where he was attacking this
09:20guy.
09:20He said, this guy is saying that Jesus is not divine, and I asked him this series of
09:25questions, and he goes off into some story, which is probably a fable at this point.
09:29I'm very certain that it was.
09:32But he goes down that path of conversation, leading the listeners to believe that he believes
09:37that Jesus Christ was divine.
09:38But then if you study some of the things that he says, he will say things like, well, Jesus
09:45never said he was coming as the son of God.
09:47He came as the son of man.
09:49And he would emphasize the man part because he was teaching the manifested sons of God
09:54doctrine.
09:55And under that framework, he had to really diminish the deed of Jesus, which I'm certain you're
10:01going to get into that in the future.
10:03But think of this, when you ask the question, which God is being served, usually whenever
10:09you're in a Christian church, they're going to elevate Jesus.
10:13They're going to make Jesus the greatest thing ever because it is a Christian church, the
10:17followers of Jesus Christ.
10:18But if you're in a church that isn't a Christian church, you're going to find somebody who wants
10:24to decrease Jesus' divinity so that he or she can increase their own divinity.
10:30That was really the problem that I hit because the more I studied the balance of statements
10:37made, he is saying both things.
10:39He's saying that Jesus is divine.
10:41He's saying that we believe God.
10:42We believe Jesus.
10:43We are Christians.
10:45He's saying the right things in some cases, but then he's saying the opposite in other cases.
10:50And it became, for me, it was a balance scale.
10:53Which one was he leaning towards?
10:55That's what I wanted to find out.
10:56And the sad truth is, the statements where he's proclaiming the divinity of Christ are
11:02very few compared to the ones where he's not.
11:05And that, for me, was a huge problem.
11:08So, John, I'm very excited about this because in doing this study, I believe I can clearly
11:13show, and I believe these books clearly show, that the message and the teaching of William
11:18Branham is on the wrong side of the track when it comes to who Jesus Christ is.
11:22There's so much confusion among the people of the message that at least when they have
11:27read these two books together, and I have a second book, they will at least know where
11:32they stand and also be able to articulate where they stand.
11:37I have found that, you know, even with my time in the message, that probably 99% of the
11:42ministers, you know, don't approach the subject too much.
11:45So, we have to ask the question, you know, why?
11:48Is it because they know what William Branham taught is wrong?
11:52Or is it because they do not study enough to articulate the message revelation of the
11:57Godhead?
11:58Or is it because they're afraid of losing members if they really taught, you know, what
12:02William Branham taught?
12:04Or is it just because they are confused as much as everyone else themselves?
12:09So, John, I think it's a combination of all these things, probably not one.
12:12But while doing this study, I found it hard to find ministers today who have really spent
12:18time teaching what William Branham's revelation of the Godhead is.
12:23But the revelation of the Godhead is really scattered throughout his tapes.
12:28And what I think my books do is bring all of it together into somewhat coherent package
12:32so it can be digested and fully understood alongside Orthodox Christianity.
12:39You know, wherever the believer lands after reading, you know, the material, my satisfaction
12:44will at least be that the believer will know where they stand and how to articulate their
12:49position.
12:50It may not be correct, but at least they will know what their leaders are telling them
12:55and be able to analyze that.
12:57So, it was comforting to know that whether you take a oneness position or a Trinitarian position
13:03with regard to the Godhead, you know, you still come away with the fact that God became
13:07flesh and dwelt among us from the crib to the cross.
13:12The deity of Jesus Christ is never diminished even in those two belief systems.
13:17You know, what I did find out, John, is that the message is diametrically opposed to either
13:22of these views.
13:23And the deity of Christ is actually diminished and done away with, which is dangerous to do.
13:31That's why I feel these two books will have a great impact on the message.
13:35And I hope it starts this great big wedge that divides true Christianity from false Christianity.
13:41You know, this study has fully convinced me at this juncture with the message that the
13:47message at its core is really a false form of Christianity.
13:50You know, in the past, writers who've condemned the message because of its anti-Trinitarian stance
13:57have never explained why the message is false because most of all these writers are Trinitarian
14:03and they assume William Branham was just oneness.
14:06But William Branham was definitely not a oneness type believer, John.
14:10I've mentioned this before on the podcast, but I remember when I was 16 years old, I was
14:15working in a restaurant as a dishwasher, and I was standing next to another guy who was
14:20helping me wash dishes.
14:22We were in front of this big machine, and he was really a devout Christian.
14:27And he was in, I can't remember the denomination he was in, but what he's saying in hindsight
14:32matched the Bible 100%.
14:34But we got in this debate over the Godhead, and he said he was Trinitarian.
14:39And I said, that's of the devil, that is, and I was just repeating the things that Branham
14:44said.
14:44And he said, really?
14:45And he started quoting passages of scripture, and he would say something, and I've read the
14:50Bible, even at age 16, I was reading it really a lot.
14:54And the things that he said, I knew were in the Bible.
14:56And I said, yes, but you don't understand.
14:58And then I would quote something that Branham said that was both supporting what he said and
15:05quite different from oneness, but at the same time, wasn't either oneness or Trinitarian.
15:10And a lot of people say that's modalism.
15:13In my opinion, it really wasn't.
15:14It's something similar to modalism, but something quite different because of manifested sons of
15:19God.
15:20But anyway, the short of it is this.
15:23I was debating a Trinitarian person trying to say that I was oneness, because that's what
15:29we believe Branham was, while giving him answers that were actually Trinitarian answers.
15:34And he was like, do you not know what you just said was Trinitarian?
15:38And we got into this weird cycle of, you know, it turned into an argument that could never
15:43be won, because I was insane.
15:44I'll just say it like that.
15:46Whenever you get wrapped up into a theology that is circular reasoning, where you can argue
15:54it, but your argument is wrong, and the person comes back and tries to explain it.
15:58And then you say it's wrong again.
15:59You get in this endless loop of insanity, and that's what I was in.
16:04I hate to say it, but what the message taught, what William Branham taught, as the framework
16:10of understanding God so that you can develop this manifested sons of God theology, what
16:17it was was insanity.
16:18Pure, plain, and simple.
16:20People have circular reasoning.
16:21You can give them Bible verses until you're blue in the face, and they don't really care
16:26what the Bible says.
16:26They're always going to go back to what Branham said.
16:29I did it.
16:30I did the exact same thing, and that's really what you're trained and indoctrinated to do.
16:34Yeah, John, that's so true.
16:36And we're really going to get into the details of this here as much as we can with the time
16:40we have.
16:41But I did find, while I did this study, that it's very hard to find ministers who put their
16:47sermons on the internet who have preached this in-depth study of the Godhead and Jesus Christ.
16:53But even among the ones I found, there's really disagreements on the teaching.
16:59You know, most ministers, including myself at one time, you know, I never really understood
17:04what William Branham taught exactly because his teaching sounds so much like oneness Pentecostalism.
17:10But then he makes statements like, God is not, you know, one like your finger, and then we
17:16become totally lost what he means by that.
17:19But I believe these books, John, explain all of that very clearly.
17:23So that's another reason I feel these are valuable resources to anyone, message believer and not,
17:28that wants to have clarity on these subjects and be able to help others.
17:33So I do have to admit that I named and gave credit to the ministers I could find who spoke
17:39of the Godhead in a sermon or spent considerable time on it in sermons.
17:43You know, both those who are now gone on and those who are very active still in ministry
17:48today, young and older.
17:51You know, let me apologize to these ministers up front, but thank you at the same time.
17:57You know, I do apologize if what I wrote in the book, in my second book, which is named
18:03Godhead in Their Own Words.
18:07You know, I do apologize ahead of time that if what I wrote may sound contrary to what
18:14you taught, but I thank you for being bold enough to put your sermon out there so it can
18:19be examined.
18:21So, John, the ministries I put in my second book are very few, but they should serve as
18:26good examples of what is out there to be heard and what people here who attend message churches.
18:32It's quite interesting what various ministers say on this subject and what their focus is,
18:36but I found it strange that in one church I mentioned in the book, and they have it on
18:41their website, it's an explanation of Godhead that they post on there, but it's nothing
18:46like the message.
18:47It's pure oneness Pentecostal modalism.
18:50You know, Brother Branham was not a oneness Pentecostal modalist, and he's adamant about
18:55this over and over.
18:57But I do understand why it's done, John.
18:59There are some strong arguments within one is Pentecostal modalism, which sounds plausible,
19:05like God is one, but then you bring message doctrine into the mix.
19:09It sounds like false Christianity, so I'm sure churches don't want to scare people off
19:14when they post things on their website, but lure them in.
19:18So then they try to hide the real revelation, probably, until further members have a chance,
19:24or future members have a chance to be in some services and meet the people.
19:28You know, and that's where the lure for people come in and they look for a place to belong,
19:36and the message will provide that fellowship for you.
19:39It'll provide the love bombing that you're after, and a sense of belonging for a time,
19:44and as long as you conform, you know, everything's good and gets better.
19:48But once you start to question, you know, it's a no-go at that point, and all the love bombing
19:53is exposed for what it really is, and all the groups, how they practice it, they turn you
20:01away pretty quickly.
20:02So, John, you know, I'm the type of person, I've always been the type that likes to tackle
20:07about any subject I hear head on if I'm interested, especially those I don't know much about because
20:13I end up learning so much in the process. It's really how I learn. I believe if I could ever
20:19find
20:19a silver bullet, you know, that would once and for all show that the message of William
20:23Brandom is false prophecy, it is found in what he taught about Jesus Christ and the Godhead.
20:30My study of this subject has really borne that out to me, you know, in my opinion.
20:34I tried to put all this information into these handbooks so it's easy to read and understand,
20:40and then backed up by original sources and even cited so the readers can look it up for
20:45themselves. And I feel like I have accomplished that, you know, in these books.
20:50You know, I was just thinking about this the other day. One of the passages of Scripture that I used
20:54to really enjoy, in fact, if I remember correctly, I used to have it as the footer in my, in
21:01every
21:01email that went out. Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not charity or love,
21:06depending on which translation you use, I become a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. In other
21:11words, I'm just making noise. Though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mystery and
21:15knowledge, and though I have faith that could move mountains and have not charity or love,
21:21depending on the translation, I am nothing. This really, really hit me whenever I left the message
21:26because we were so invested in the prophecy and the divine mysteries, as he called them,
21:32and yet none of them really were important for my salvation. I was thinking through the
21:37prophecies, for example, the seven or 13 or 18, however many prophecies he claimed to have in 1933
21:45that have been branded the seven. They're a little bit conflicting. One of them is that cars will be
21:50shaped like an egg. How does that help my salvation? You know, every single one that you go through,
21:55there are not really anything that helps me become better. But yet at the same time, it's just, you
22:04know, it's noise. But at the same time, it is this, it's this weird thing where we cared more about
22:10the
22:10prophecy than we did love for one another. If you're another Christian, and you're not in the same group
22:14we were in, you were, you were cannon fodders, one of the phrases that we use, which means you are
22:21expendable. We don't care about you. That's literally what it meant. I studied this passage
22:26after leaving and came to realize that even if all the prophecies were correct, still, if you go back
22:32to what he taught on the Godhead and what he taught about how to behave towards other Christians,
22:37it wasn't a Christian religion. And that was the problem that I began to face. I started to struggle
22:43thinking about my family who are still trapped in it because they're still that same mindset,
22:48and they still look to the things that he said as though it's biblical truth. And in fact, it's
22:54biblical error. And I was faced with that question that I said at the beginning of this, are they
22:59serving the God of the Bible? Are they serving a different God? That's the question, pure, plain,
23:03and simple. So whenever I think of prophecy, like you said, it's just, you know, even if it's correct,
23:09I don't care if he's not teaching the God of the Bible, it can't be a Christian religion.
23:13You know, as I put these two books together, or as I was starting on one, I actually ended up
23:19with
23:19two, and I felt like they should be separated so that the reader is not having to read a lot
23:24of
23:24quotes, which I included in my second book, and with commentary. And so that they get the meat of
23:31the material, you know, in the first book, who is Jesus Christ? And so the message is included in
23:38that, but it's not the sole subject. Only the second book is the sole subject for the purpose
23:43of pointing out the variations, the differences, and the issues, you know, with the Godhead and
23:49where it leads. So we're all familiar, John, in the message, you know, with this Hoffman's
23:55head of Christ, you know, we're all very familiar with that. So I did want to put that on the
23:59book to
24:00attract, you know, the believers of the message. And so that's what the first book about is all about is
24:06about Christ, and who he is from eternity past to eternity future. And it's logically arranged in
24:14there with each belief system. And the first books ordered that way for easy reference. It includes
24:22ancient and modern beliefs about Jesus, and how they found their way into the message. I included
24:28even Orthodox Christianity for comparison, as well as a chapter completely on the deity of Jesus Christ,
24:36which I have free sources available on the internet cited in this, in this second book here.
24:43And you can get all these resources for free. But as I put this connections together,
24:51everything I included does have a direct connection to the message, because that's what I'm most familiar
24:56with. And it helps us to know where William Branham's beliefs originated. You know, the first book,
25:02I'll be kind of quick with this, it was written as a narrative history, it prevents it presents the
25:07historical facts, and that are very brief, and I felt were pertinent to get the point across where
25:13it came from. And in the section on William Branham's belief, I really had to go only from quotes and
25:19sermons, and other ministers, because that's really all we have to go on, of what he believed and he
25:26taught. But out of this study, I found William Branham did not embrace probably as much as 90% of
25:32what's
25:32called Orthodox Christianity, Orthodox Christian teaching concerning the Godhead. So we have to
25:38use what he said in sermons rather than repeating, you know, his doctrinal statements from either
25:43Oneness Pentecostalism or Orthodox Christianity, which he did at times, because we know he used the
25:48term Trinity quite a bit. But he also talked about Oneness quite a bit. So I put this table,
25:54you know, together at the very end, John. And as you can see, on this far, you know, right side,
26:03this is all about the message. And you can see how much how different it is from all the other
26:10belief systems. Because I put the definitive statements in there of what it believed. And as
26:16you can see, on the far left side was Orthodox Christianity. And it's far away from it. So it's
26:23kind of interesting to look at that table. And I did have one minister that reviewed my book actually
26:28say that was very helpful. But I do feel former and present message believers who are familiar with
26:34listening to tapes will understand and appreciate, you know, how difficult it is, you know, to pin down
26:39William Branham's beliefs on this subject, or even most subjects that he is known for saying things
26:44multiple ways, sometimes sounding like Orthodox, sometimes sounding like Trinitarian, sometimes
26:49sounding like Oneness. And then at times, we catch him offering up his deep down convictions.
26:54And that's what I try to do in this book, which is what we really want to get to.
26:59So I understand the confusion in the message community. And I understand the confusion it brings
27:04to people who are trying to understand various and important doctrines to the Christian. And it's only
27:10the ministers who've really spent hours of study and juggling the various statements, digesting all
27:16the tapes, who really get the revelation, end quotes, or what the message really means for the
27:22believer and can articulate that. So it makes me wonder a lot about where that leaves the common
27:28everyday layperson when most ministers stay away from the subject, or even controversial subjects in
27:33the message, and have a habit of just repeating words of William Branham that suit them, or particular
27:40words that they take out of certain tapes and not others, you know, which is not the full picture.
27:46A lot of times, it generally represents the particular side the minister takes on the subject,
27:51such as I mentioned at church a little bit ago about they take the side of Oneness Pentecostalism.
27:56You know, these methods really cause more confusion, and they lead to many church splits and have,
28:02as we know, as y'all have told over the last few years here, and they lead to disfellowship among
28:09message believers over the years, and cause it to take all the many flavors that we've seen in the
28:16message. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern
28:22Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the
28:29new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
28:35william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of
28:42John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,
28:49audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various
28:55people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support
29:01the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe
29:07to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical
29:13Research, we want to thank you for your support. The most important question remains that if the
29:18message believer does not really have William Branham's revelation, in quotes, of the Godhead,
29:24you know, and who Jesus Christ is as taught in the message, not Orthodox Christianity or Oneness
29:30Pentecostalism, but we're talking about taught in the message. You know, can they ever be confident
29:34that they will ever go in the rapture, or receive the body change, or the manifestation of the sons of
29:40God, as is taught in the message that you've got to receive at the very end? You know, according to
29:46message teaching, you know, being ready for the rapture is more than the common salvation that
29:51we receive by believing in Jesus Christ. So, is just a mental assent to the message all that's
29:57necessary, or even repentance and faith in Jesus Christ all that is necessary? Well, the message
30:04would say no. You know, I would think, and I'm firmly convinced that no one in the message would agree
30:10with that, of course, if they really know the message, or would even, we would not even need the
30:15message had that be true. So, if no one can understand the message, and the ministers do
30:20not teach the message of William Branham correctly, then why was it ever needed in the first place?
30:26You know, even in our time, when we're needing it the most, all message believers should be answering
30:31the question that it takes the revelation of the word of the hour, such as what's in these books here,
30:39so if the message is not being taught correctly, how can anybody ever come to the correct revelation
30:44for the rapture? You know, I like to stay simple, John, and believe just that basic repentance and
30:51faith in Jesus Christ with the born-again experience that comes with it is all that's needed to be in
30:57the family of God and to receive whatever comes that God has planned for the believer, and I believe
31:04that's according to the Bible. So, John, not only did I want to fully clarify all the different
31:09versions of the Godhead, I wanted to create a book that will clearly bring out this revelation
31:14that William Branham had, you know, for the benefit of those message believers. So, after reading the
31:20book, they decide to remain in the message. At least they can go forth with William Branham's
31:24revelation and make it their own and internalize it. They no longer have to remain in darkness,
31:30in quotes, regarding the message. The young generation can also take this book and use it as a study
31:37guide, you know, to further their understanding of this topic. Rock solid course with the quotes to
31:43back it up. You know, there are certain conclusions you have to reach as this topic is studied, you know,
31:50which I try to present as many as I can to the reader of the conclusions I reached. Now, I
31:56want this
31:56to go much further than just repeating quotes because I offer a lot of commentary on the quotes when you
32:02get
32:02to the ministry, especially in the second book that I have on the conclusions that have to be reached if
32:08you hold on to these beliefs. And really, that's where the strong meat is, John. That's where the
32:13strong meat of this material lies, is in those conclusions. So, this book will likely be a two-edged
32:19sword. And we've referred to different reactions, you know, in our past episodes recently that people
32:25have when they're confronted with information. They either become bound more tightly to the belief or
32:30they experience that triggering event that allows them to critically think about the information.
32:37So, all I'm hoping for is that for individuals, we'll take this information and compare it with
32:42scripture. Whenever my family left the Branham movement, I began to read the Bible over and over,
32:47just cover to cover, reading the books chapter by chapter, verse by verse, the entire thing to
32:53understand what it said in context. And I began to find that there were huge flaws with what I believed
32:59while I was in Branhamism. One of the big things that hit me was this. God is not the author
33:04of
33:04confusion. You can read the passage. It's very pure, plain, and simple. God does not bring confusion
33:11to his church. But the pagan religions do, if you study them, which is a little bit interesting.
33:16I got to thinking about things like the Godhead. There's such confusion. And it's because, like I said,
33:22every church that has a different view on the Godhead, they can trace it right back to something that
33:27Branham taught. And they'll go down one path, and another path, and a third path, and a fourth,
33:32all of these different pathways. And what it ends up to, it's like a tower of Babel of doctrine.
33:37It's just such confusion. Nobody can even communicate with each other. So, for me, it's really difficult.
33:43If you're in the message, or if you're in any of the splinter groups that developed from the message,
33:49it's really difficult to understand the Bible, because you're trying to understand it through the lens
33:53of somebody who was preaching confusion. And when you find that he taught path A, and then you're
33:59trying to understand what the Bible says about path A, and you find the opposite path, Z, you're
34:05looking down that path, and you're thinking, well, how can the Bible make sense? What it ends up with
34:09is many people just simply don't read the Bible. It's too confusing. And that makes it very difficult.
34:14Darrell Bock Yeah, John, you know, the believer has
34:16a tough time in these days, especially when you've got different churches preaching variations
34:22of William Branham's doctrine. They're not all on the same page. And really, the only place I was
34:26able to find consistency is in the ministers that are already dead, and the ones that have left their
34:32legacy on the internet for all to read and see. And these were Lee Vale and Lonnie Jenkins. They both
34:39treated the Godhead extensively in their sermons, and that was very helpful to come up with the
34:46revelation of William Branham's message. The newer believers have a slant based on what their focus
34:52is, whether it be, you know, what the believer is to become, or as I mentioned, the church on the
34:58oneness of Pentecostalism, they may focus on that, and others also the same way. They may focus only on
35:04modalism in their sermons. But I only found one minister that was really preaching the Godhead,
35:11but in all his material, it was really a lot of contradictions and a lot of very concerning
35:18things that I found out in that study there. So I really appreciate him putting his information
35:24out there on the internet, you know, for study. I understand this process is not fast. You know,
35:29it's taken me years, you know, to get to this point that I am now. But this deeper study,
35:35you know, has the effect of accelerating. I believe these books will accelerate the journey,
35:40you know, to where I am now. You know, nobody should be discouraged. And the reason why these
35:45books will be helpful is because nobody's got to go out and gather all the material up themselves.
35:50It's all there right in front of them. And nobody should be discouraged at where they are right now,
35:55you know, because we're all in this journey. And hopefully, we'll all be in this journey for
35:59truth, not from a man's word, you know, but from God's word. You know, some of us have minds
36:06and situations which allow us to make a quicker journey to two things and jump, you know, more to
36:13the truth than others. You know, that's perfectly fine, because that's the reality of us as human
36:18beings. But John, Jesus Christ, through all this study, I knew this before, but I know it more than
36:26ever now that Jesus Christ is the center of Christianity. He's the center of human history.
36:32You know, so I believe firmly that any information presented that shows, you know, how groups attack
36:38Jesus Christ are serving as the catalyst for the Christian believer to really want to know.
36:45And that's what I'm showing here is that the groups that I've presented do attack the nature
36:51and the deity and who Jesus Christ really is. It really needs to be pointed out. But all Christians
36:57must withstand any attempt to diminish who Jesus Christ is as deity. And I feel I'm hitting at the
37:05core, driving home the information, offering a challenge to ministers to accurately teach the
37:11message. Even if they don't believe my conclusions, according to Godhead, they still have to teach the
37:20message accurately to say they're a message believer or a message teacher. And they need to teach this
37:26information to their congregations, you know, the revelation of what the Godhead is, so that
37:31congregations won't think they're believing in oneness Pentecostalism, you know, or even Trinity or
37:36something else. They shouldn't be calling themselves a message church unless they're true, you know, to
37:42William Branham's message. So another reason I put this information in the book form is because most message
37:48believers will never be able to, and most people don't have the time, you know, I realize we're busy in
37:55these days, really to devote themselves to compile the information, the quotes and the teachings into this
38:01coherent body of material. So I do hope this book serves that purpose. And I hope it becomes an
38:08essential body of knowledge for message believers about the Godhead, and the information they need
38:14to know. Because when they're talking to other people, as message believers, if they're true, they
38:19ought to be witnessing to the world. There towards the end, whenever I was coming to the conclusion of my
38:25time in the Branham religion, that was one thing that really hit me. Why were we not witnessing to the
38:30world? There are people who said, yes, we are, we have missionaries, etc. But usually those
38:35missionaries are going to regions where there is already a message presence, and the message
38:40followers come, and it's usually a gathering of message followers. And they might, yes, invite a
38:45couple of people, but it's not really like the other churches, where true missionaries are going out
38:49to people who've never heard of Jesus Christ, and going out and teaching them about Jesus Christ,
38:55trying to save the lost. And even outreach in local communities. There are people who are,
39:02I mean, I live in Jeffersonville, the Mecca of the place. There are people in the city who are
39:07atheists, and there are people who are, you know, homeless people. There are just different categories
39:13of people that other churches will go help. But I can assure you, because I know my grandfather
39:18didn't, never was any of these people that were potential converts to Christ really targeted.
39:25It was usually an internal thing. We grow from childbirth. That's usually how the outreach works.
39:31We're going to train our kids to be Branhamites, and then their kids will be Branhamites,
39:35and we will multiply as we bear children. But the sad part of it is, that's not how Christianity
39:41was intended to work. We were supposed to go to the sinner. We were supposed to go to the lost.
39:46Jesus sat with the prostitutes and tried to help them, right? You wouldn't find a single
39:51message person going and trying to sit with a prostitute and try to help her become a Christian
39:57and abandon the life that she's living. The problem is, it's taught in such a way that
40:02the gospel is not spread. Instead, Branhamism grows internally. And if you look at any destructive
40:10cult, that's one of the similarities. If they have become so destructive that they are self-contained
40:15and their only real growth is through childbirth, they're not a Christian church. It's
40:20a pure, plain, and simple. They're not spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'll say it like that.
40:25They have a different intent and a different motive, and it's wrong. It really is wrong.
40:31Most people, John, also don't realize that, unless they listen to your podcast,
40:37know that the message has roots from a lot of borrowed doctrines,
40:41from Jehovah Witness and Latter-day Saints. And they are also well-documented in my book.
40:47So the reader will be able to quickly compare the teachings. And that chart at the end of the book
40:52outlines those similarities and differences that I showed. Another key point, and I believe this is
40:57key to understanding the message and having the same revelation William Branham had,
41:02was his teaching of the Godhead really has everything to do with the message. And how he taught the
41:08Godhead is strictly for promoting his message and what he believed. So what I mean by that is he
41:15wanted people to believe his message in the first place and the final outcome, you know, for the
41:21believer. And we've talked about manifestations of sons of God, you know, many times, and you have
41:27as well. But William Branham's message and all that he preached eventually finds its sole focus on
41:32Christians really becoming a direct representation of God in the flesh or a manifestation of God.
41:39You know, in addition, William Branham's secondary purpose was really to ensure you believed he was
41:45the last day biblical prophet to come prior to this manifestation that you're supposed to have
41:50and would actually herald, his coming would actually herald or be the catalyst to bring in
41:56this manifestation. He was the first fruits or the first manifestation of the mature son of God
42:03and others will follow in the footsteps. You know, this is what you believe if you're a true message
42:08believer. Jesus Christ, he's given lip service a lot of times, but he's really put in the background
42:14in the message. Your thoughts while you come to the forefront as a manifestation of God in this day,
42:22you know, you being the thoughts of God and coming forth as a manifestation is actually put in the
42:29forefront. And that's one of the things that was really hard for me to understand. And once I did,
42:34I was really saddened by it. And I know that there are people who would disagree with me on this,
42:38but
42:38there is a strong difference between a Christian church and a church that uses the name Jesus but
42:45isn't a Christian church. The two can be polar opposite. They can teach polar different, you know,
42:50totally different things. But in the end, if you have a Christian church, you're uplifting Jesus,
42:56Jesus Christ, because it's a Christian church. And if you're in a non-Christian church, you're
43:01demoting Jesus so that you can put something else in his place. For me, it all goes back to this
43:06manifested sons of God theology. And in Branham's own words, he never claimed to be the son of God.
43:11He was a son of man. He came as a prophet. He could do nothing unless the father showed him
43:16first.
43:17That's an almost exact quote. You can go find him saying this almost everywhere. What he was doing
43:22is he was saying that Jesus was not divine. He was nothing more than a prophet. And condemning
43:27everybody else who said that Jesus was only a prophet. And I'm laughing at the absurdity. It's
43:32heretical. It's awful what he's doing. For me, that was the real problem. If you're in a church that
43:39is demoting Jesus, that you're not uplifting Jesus, but you're using the name Jesus Christ,
43:44you really can't claim to be Christian. What you can claim to be is the thing that you're
43:50promoting along with Christ. And that's why they're called Branham churches. They're not
43:55called Christian churches. That's really the key difference. So for me, it's a big deal. It's a
44:00problem. I'm very glad that you have dissected it. And like I said, I usually don't get into theology.
44:05This is one of the edge cases, but you've dissected this and very strategically put all of the
44:11different quotes into one book. And you've laid it out in such a way that people can
44:15hopefully understand it if you've been involved in this kind of ministry. And if you're a researcher
44:21who is researching Branhamism and trying to understand the differences between Christianity
44:26and what it means to be a Branhamite, this is a really good resource for you to go to and
44:31find
44:31some quotes. So thank you for laying this up in such an easy-to-follow way.
44:35Yeah, John, even these covers that I chose were strategic. As I said, I chose this cover because
44:41that will attract the message believer. But also this one. And this photo just happens to be
44:47the rich young ruler in the same painting by Hoffman. We just a lot of times cut out the picture
44:55of
44:55Christ. But if you look at the actual photograph or the painting that Hoffman did, the rich young
45:02ruler is standing right there by Christ, I guess, asking him, how can I receive eternal life?
45:07But he's there. So I included him in the second book because that's what this book's about.
45:16He's right there with Christ. He's trying to get him to get his eyes off the world. You know,
45:20Christ was trying to get him to put his eyes off the world and what he had and offers to
45:26get his eyes
45:27back on God when he said, give away what you have. So the second book is focusing on what ministers
45:33are
45:34saying about Godhead today. So I believe the rich young ruler is symbolic of this crossroads in the
45:39ministry that they will face, you know, some will face when they read it. They'll have to make a
45:45decision like the rich young ruler did. The rich young ruler had to make a decision. And then what
45:51you take away and believe about Godhead after you encounter this material will cause you to make
45:56decisions. No one's trying to dictate what your decision is going to be. That's between you and
46:01God. But I do hope that all the decisions that will be made, that the ministry will as a whole
46:07decide
46:09if they're going to stay in the message to be very forthcoming to congregations in the future
46:13about what they preach and the respect to the teachings of William Branham concerning Godhead.
46:20Because this material is going to be available to anyone. So to sum all this, based on where my
46:26study of the message and the study of Godhead, I believe William Branham really knew where he was
46:30going from the beginning of his ministry in 1946. You know, ministers like to point to something they
46:36call the concept of progressive revelation due to the way William Branham said things all through his
46:40ministry. But William Branham preached these things even like alluding to controversial doctrines like
46:47serpent seed and strict oneness of God and so forth from the very start. But in 1950, three years after
46:54he got started or four years, he opened up a lot of what message the message embraces concerning the
47:00Godhead today as well, or the people should be embracing. So I don't think he was experiencing
47:06progressive revelation so much as he was probably hiding his revelation until at the time he felt that
47:13he would have the most impact and be able to sway, you know, the most amount of people. Because we
47:18know
47:18he preached to the denominational world and Pentecostalism, both oneness and Trinitarian sides.
47:24And had he brought out his revelation to start with very openly, he would have ostracized everybody,
47:31which eventually he did. But I guess he was hoping that with his gift of healing or discernment or
47:37whatever he did, demonstrating things, he was going to win enough people over to his side. And perhaps
47:43he was hoping to win the whole Christian Pentecostal world to his side as well. But he gained their
47:49confidence through his healing ministry, his demonstration, before springing his real beliefs
47:55on them that he preached to. So I'm sure at one point he thought he had them in the palm
47:59of his hands,
48:00but that never materialized. So he began a ministry of condemnation after that,
48:05to those who saw through what he was teaching, and compared it with scripture. But everything he
48:10was trying to do actually had the opposite effect, except on the few that stayed with him. And that's
48:16evolved into what we see today.
48:18Darrell Bock Exactly. And keep in mind, all of the different directions that the message has
48:23developed, and everything that came after it has developed. It developed because the seed was planted.
48:29He would plant a doctrine, and it would grow to fruition. And group A would go
48:34headfirst in that doctrine. Then he would preach the polar opposite thing, and he would go down
48:38that path, and people would follow him down that path. To the extent, I was not aware of this until
48:44after leaving the message. But while I was in the message, I did not know that he actually preached
48:50the persons of the Trinity. I was a little surprised whenever somebody showed me that. I believe,
48:56like everybody else, like the historians say, that he was hardcore oneness. He was always oneness.
49:00He even himself says that he denied the Trinity, rejected the Trinity, way back in 1930s, whenever
49:08he's with Roy Davis. But then I find he's actually preaching the persons and praying to the persons
49:13of the Trinity, saying that he is glad that the person, the Father, has sent the person,
49:18the Holy Spirit, into our hearts. And he even mentions the word person, all while he's telling
49:24people that if you use the word persons, you're preaching Catholic doctrine, and it's the doctrine
49:28of demons, essentially. So, everything that he taught, everything that came to fruition
49:34in the message, everything that was built on top of this, it developed because of something
49:39he said. To the extent, there were people when he died, I've mentioned this before, like
49:44T.L. Osborne, who believed that he was God in the flesh. My grandfather, whenever my grandfather
49:50resigned from the Branham Tabernacle, after preaching there 50 years or more, he said very clearly
49:56and explicitly, William Branham was God tabernacled in human flesh. All of that traces back to
50:02something that Branham said, yet at the same time, he'll say the opposite. So, which path
50:06do you take? One group follows one path, and they'll say, well, Branham said this. This is
50:11what we believe. And another one will say, no, he rejected it. Here's where he rejected
50:15it. And they'll go down that path. In the end, like I said before, it's just a path of confusion.
50:20Okay, this is what William Branham said. I want to read this quote real quick. It was in the
50:24ever-present water from the rock, 1961. He said, I do not desire to have any more discernment. See
50:30now, here's what's happened. I've tried, and I know I've done things wrong, but I've tried to live
50:35close enough to God all the time, to God. That's how these visions would happen and how they would
50:40take place. Even people would lose things and call me up, ask me to go pray to the Lord to
50:45ask where
50:45it was at. He says, and that's what caused the brethren to get the doctrine started that I was the
50:51incarnated Lord Jesus Christ. And we know that would just tear the ministry all to pieces and
50:57bring reproach upon Christ and everything. So that's the reason I had to give them a great shake
51:02and stop it right at once, to let them know that that was not of God, it was of the
51:06devil.
51:07And it made many of them to say to me, Brother Branham, we've got more confidence in you
51:11than we ever had. Because see, with that gift God has given me, here's what he thought about it.
51:16What could I have done with that? Throw the nation at my feet, or the people.
51:23So really, John, he thought he was going to have the whole nation at his feet because of
51:28his ministry. But we find out, and thankfully so, the scripture took precedent over the supernatural.
51:37So one last thought, John, I want to throw this out there. If you would ever, I think a good
51:42study
51:42we could do was detail where William Branham got the thoughts and teachings, you know,
51:48where they originated from. And I know you've shown a lot of that with some of your guests
51:52on your show. But maybe we put it all in one podcast, because it's kind of interesting where
51:58the philosophy of name it and claim it, and word of faith came from, because he doesn't
52:03give any credit to that. But John, I will say that I'll end it there. And I'll say these
52:10books, I will make them available on Amazon, and I'll give you the link so that you can post
52:15it on your website for anyone that has a desire to have them. And of course, anyone wants to
52:23email me, I can send them the link. But those should be available on Amazon as of right now,
52:28as of this podcast.
52:30Well, thank you so much for putting all of this together. And if you're interested in
52:34John's books, we have the book section on the website, william-branham.org. You can click on
52:39the books link, and it'll take you to John McKinnon's books, my books, all of the other
52:44guests and co-hosts that we have the books in the library. You can find them there. Click through to
52:50the Amazon link, and you can purchase it. So thank you so much for doing this, John. And next time,
52:54we'll dive deeper into this weird mess that we call The Message. We'll see you next time.
53:00Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
53:03You can find us at william-branham.org. For more information about the message teaching of the
53:08Godhead, you can read Godhead and Their Own Words, Voices of Oneness Preachers in the End Time Message.
53:14And for more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion
53:18from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
53:24I want to see you next time.
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