- 2 days ago
John and Franny discuss what it is like to grow up inside intense charismatic and New Apostolic Reformation-style church environments, where worship, prophecy, healing services, deliverance, and “moves of God” often blur together with emotional pressure, crowd psychology, and spiritual fear.
They examine revival culture, long worship sessions, altar calls, healing claims, spiritual highs and crashes, the pressure to “feel God,” and the painful process of untangling faith from manipulation. The conversation also explores trauma, identity loss, therapy, boring stability, and why many former members must relearn how to trust their own emotions after leaving high-intensity religious systems.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
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– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
They examine revival culture, long worship sessions, altar calls, healing claims, spiritual highs and crashes, the pressure to “feel God,” and the painful process of untangling faith from manipulation. The conversation also explores trauma, identity loss, therapy, boring stability, and why many former members must relearn how to trust their own emotions after leaving high-intensity religious systems.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Franny Nance, former member of Charismania.
00:47Franny, I've been talking to you for I don't know how many weeks it's been now.
00:52And each time I talk to you, I think back to the way it was whenever I was growing up.
00:57Because growing up, we had these experiences that we felt something.
01:01Something was there.
01:03You felt like it was a move of God.
01:05Or, you know, when you're in your teenagers, you think, oh, my gosh, this is magic.
01:10What's happening here?
01:11And then after you get a little bit older, even while you're still in it, it changes.
01:16Your experience and your perception of those experiences change.
01:20But then after you leave and you start to detangle all the mess that was there, you start to wonder,
01:26okay, how much of it was God?
01:27How much of it was manipulation?
01:29How much of it was just theatrics?
01:31And the more I dive into some of the new modern, new apostolic Reformation churches and the modern charismatic movement,
01:40I start to wonder, was there any God?
01:43Or how much of it was theatrics?
01:45And I wanted to talk this over with you and try to, I don't know, try to untangle the mess
01:51of what it's like to experience, quote, unquote, God in these modern services.
01:56It's funny, because like you were saying, you're raising it, so was I, so that's all I knew.
02:04And, you know, my parents were, you know, revival junkies or whatever.
02:10So, it was like, we're going to Toronto for spring break, you know, for the Toronto Blessing.
02:16We're going to Morningstar.
02:17We used to live like not too far away from there so we could drive.
02:21And it was always just like long worship sessions that would sort of like get you, you know, entering the
02:30throne room.
02:30All that language, you know, we're going to enter the throne room, going into the third heaven.
02:35So, it's like all these buzzwords.
02:39So, yeah, I don't know.
02:41So, like looking back, you know, in my own healing process and growth and learning, I've had to sort of
02:49like, well, what was that?
02:53Like, was that deliverance that I experienced?
02:57Like, you know, and I've gone back and looked.
02:59I'm thinking like, have I seen a healing?
03:02Have I seen, you know, like I've seen people like manifest, you know, but have I seen like an actual
03:11like limb grow or have, you know, this person that went through deliverance, well, they still have the same problem
03:18or I don't know, like we haven't followed up with them.
03:20So, in my own personal life, it's like, well, I went to this Todd Bentley conference and, you know, he's
03:27screaming fire.
03:29It's like, and we're all, and I'm shaking and screaming, you know, and so I'm like, what was that?
03:35And I think a lot of times, too, it's hard, like as a human, you don't really want to admit
03:40that maybe it wasn't God, like that I was manipulated.
03:47And I, you know, I was vulnerable and opened myself up to that and then allowed, you know, that to
03:54happen.
03:55And I think, too, I think a lot of, you know, people get offended by that.
03:59And I'm not saying that your experience wasn't of God or whatever, inauthentic, like it was probably real.
04:08I guess my challenge is to those folks, like, you know, was it God?
04:15I don't know.
04:15It's just like looking at the mechanism of it.
04:17Like, yeah, it's, you're in these services and so they tell you like, oh, that's the power of God.
04:25Well, no, I mean, and so you just buy it.
04:27You're like, oh, okay, well, he said it's the power of God.
04:30It's this, you know, person or whatever.
04:31But if you actually, and then if you question it, like you're, you might have a demon.
04:36Like, I think that's how a lot of these things get you trapped.
04:38It's like, I can't ask questions like, well, what happened to me?
04:42It's like, I don't, I don't even know what that was.
04:44And it's like, maybe that wasn't God.
04:47Oh, well, then it was demonic.
04:48Well, I don't really want to be labeled as demonic.
04:51And also, if you are manifesting and, you know, wildly worshiping, these systems, like these churches, ministries, they really reward
05:02people.
05:02The more theatrical, the more dramatic, the more, you know, wild you are, like you are rewarded, you know, of
05:11like, wow, that person is really close to God or, you know, look at that.
05:15Like, this is the, you know, I don't know if I'm explaining it correctly, but I just think for me
05:22growing up in it, I was conditioned to believe that, like, we stay, we worship, we get in these long,
05:30like, worship sessions and you're, you know, crying out and you're desperate and you're just, you're opening yourself up.
05:36And so, yeah, these do, you do get whipped up into, like, an emotional frenzy.
05:41And then you have a preacher preaching and telling you that this is God and, like, and so there were
05:48people that were like, I don't feel anything, like, I don't, so I guess maybe God doesn't love me because
05:53I'm not, I'm not feeling anything, you know, like, maybe they're not easily manipulated.
05:58So, they're like, I'm not feeling anything.
06:00Yeah, it's such a strange and unusual question.
06:03I have reexamined all of it from a, from all different types of perspectives, from a historical perspective, psychological, and
06:12ironically, a rock and roll concert kind of changed my mind.
06:17And you're going to laugh at me.
06:19I'm not going to give the name of the group, but I grew up listening to nothing but the old
06:231950s and 1960s gospel, which was outdated and no fun.
06:27And I did enjoy playing it, but after I started to experience real music, I was like, I want to
06:33go hear something different.
06:34And so, I didn't know the names of any of these groups, ironically.
06:39There were some groups that were locally and coming to Louisville in this big convention center.
06:44So, I got some tickets to a group that I've never heard just to go hear them.
06:48So, I went there.
06:50I think I took the, I think I took a couple of my boys with me.
06:54I don't think my wife was there.
06:56But it was a band, and you'd laugh at me if you heard the name.
06:59But...
07:00Well, now you have to say the name.
07:02I'm not going to say it.
07:03Okay.
07:03The emotion, the hype, the euphoria, just the experience of being there.
07:09I was on cloud nine.
07:11This was one of the greatest moments of my life while I'm there.
07:15And then towards, I don't know, towards the end of it, as I'm getting tired, I'm kind of like, ah,
07:20it's okay.
07:21This is nothing like I've ever heard before.
07:24Then after I left, I started listening to that same band on Spotify, you know, and I'm like, oh, my
07:30gosh.
07:31I'm not sure I really like these songs, although they did have a couple of good ones.
07:36But the moral of the story is this.
07:38While I was there, in this massive crowd of people, everybody's clapping.
07:43They're all in this, you know, euphoria.
07:45They're bringing to you an emotion that you can't really contain.
07:50And that's how crowd pleasers do.
07:55That's part of the charismatic personality is somebody who can engage with the crowd and get them all excited.
08:01Well, when you're in that type of environment, it can be a rock and roll concert.
08:04It can be a Christian meeting, you know, and a Christian event.
08:09You're going to experience the same thing no matter what.
08:12And so after that, I started critically analyzing every service that I went to at every church that I went
08:20to.
08:20And I go into a service, and instead of just getting into the crowd-pleasing hype, even whether it was
08:28a small crowd or a big crowd, I started to instead think about, okay, what is their technique?
08:34How are they toying with my head?
08:36And when you do this, it changes the service entirely.
08:40The point I'm trying to make is, if it were the rock and roll God, I would be in there
08:46believing God has just come down in our midst, right?
08:49And the same way with the Christian services, I would be there like, oh, my gosh, I feel it.
08:54I feel the power going through me.
08:56But it's not really that so much as it is the connection to other humans that you're feeling.
09:01And yes, maybe that could be God.
09:04But in my experience, this was more of a, I don't know, it was more of a psychology based on
09:10the charismatic presence and the stage presence that they were doing.
09:13No, I would 100% agree with that.
09:15I think just based on Benny Hinn services and yeah, just the various, and it's just the church, the format
09:25itself is, and I've had to like question that too.
09:30Like the dark, you know, the dark room, the atmosphere, they're preparing it.
09:39And I think a lot of times too, it's so built into the system though.
09:42It's like everything is, quote unquote, godly.
09:45It's like, oh no, well, we're preparing the atmosphere for, you know, God to come down or something like that.
09:52And it's like, well, you're just preparing a concert, you know, for people to come.
09:57And it's like, you know, a lot of times too, if we'd be at a church and the worship wasn't
10:02that great, you know, my parents like, this church is dead, we need to leave or whatever.
10:08And I do remember like growing up, it was always like really amazing, like if the pastor would get up
10:14and say, you know, we're just going to continue to worship today.
10:18I feel like the Holy Spirit's telling us just to worship.
10:20And so, like the whole service would just be worship.
10:23And, you know, I remember my parents loved that so much, but then I'm thinking like, well, they almost do
10:28this every service.
10:29It's like, so if I was a pastor, it's like, I don't have to prepare anything.
10:32I can just say like, oh, the Holy Spirit's telling me that we need to continue to worship.
10:35And you just like have a worship service the whole time.
10:39So, yeah, but I guess I have in this, like I, my brain looks for patterns.
10:47That's just how, you know, I think that's interesting.
10:51I like looking at patterns.
10:52That's why I like history.
10:53That's why I studied it.
10:54And so, like even in my own experience and through like church or religion, I'm just curious, like looking at
11:00patterns.
11:01And so, someone who is in another church or excuse me, not church, but just a different religion or I've
11:09honestly seen the same patterns in my research in Charismania as the New Age movement, which has been really interesting
11:18to me.
11:19people who are, you know, in the New Age, like self-help, you know, guru type, you know, movement or
11:28whatever, talk about the same experiences, like the same manifestations, the same type of like clearing your mind, like entering
11:38in, clearing your mind.
11:39And so, I remember like I would bring that up.
11:41I'm like, well, this person, and they're like, well, that's counterfeit.
11:44That's not of God.
11:45You know, this is of God.
11:46I'm like, well, who is deciding that?
11:47Like, you know, it's like, so then for me, like as a young person, trying to even, there's no like
11:56source of truth.
11:59Like there's no, what am I trying to think?
12:01Like this is the source of truth.
12:03So, like, you know, this experience is the same as in the church is the same as like this experience
12:10this person has as like, you know, in yoga or something like that.
12:14But like, I'm told that that's evil, but this is not, even though it's the same thing.
12:20And it's like, well, that's a demon manifesting, but this is the power of God manifesting on you.
12:25And so, there's no, it's just, it's always changing.
12:28It's always based on, you know, the people in power, the person in charge.
12:33And if you ask too many questions, well, then you must have a demon too, or you don't have faith
12:37or whatever.
12:39And so, yeah, you keep yourself trapped that way.
12:44But also, I think too, in these services as well, like, I mean, that's how, yeah, they get you, you
12:54lower your inhibitions.
12:55You go in already, like a lot of these people are looking for healing.
13:00You know, they've got like hard things in their life going on.
13:03And so, people want answers.
13:06They want healing.
13:08They want a miracle.
13:10And a lot of these, they promise you miracles.
13:13They all promise you miracles, you know, just enter in, you know, just worship, give your all or whatever.
13:20And so, if you think about that, like outside of like a religious church, if you are, I don't know,
13:27like a government leader is telling you to like, just, you know, open your mind, like open your heart to
13:35what I have to say or whatever.
13:36Like, you know, a lot of people would start questioning that.
13:38But I think in church, you're just like, oh, well, you know, I trust this person, this leader and this
13:43minister and they're anointed.
13:45And, you know, you know, my pastors brought this itinerant minister in to speak.
13:48And I'm conditioned now, you know, like to when I come to church and they start lowering the music, you
13:56know, the lights and start like playing the music and the drum starts going.
13:59And, you know, like that we go up to the altar, we all, you know, open our hearts and like,
14:04that's what I've been taught, that that is how you worship God and surrender yourself to him.
14:10And then your inhibitions are lowered and so, you're kind of ready to absorb whatever you're told or, yeah.
14:23And so, people do get whipped up.
14:24There are like many studies like, you know, I mean, anyone can research it or look it up where it's
14:31like this group mob mentality of just like where everyone's getting whipped up and they're all like, you know, crying
14:39or shaking.
14:40You know, and people are like, oh, they're shaking under the power of God.
14:42And it's like, well, no, I just, no, they're manipulated.
14:47It's like, and they lowered their inhibitions and are, you know, sort of whipped up in this group thing.
14:56Well, an interesting part about that, a lot of people who attend these types of services are filled with anxiety
15:03either from having been under spiritual abuse or simply by life, you know.
15:09And there is, there are many studies that talk about how meditation can help calm your anxiety.
15:15And it works.
15:16I've done it myself.
15:18When you get into one of these services and they start doing the prayer and meditation, you actually start to
15:23feel better.
15:24So, you can be in the group and you can start to feel better.
15:27Does that mean that it's God?
15:28Well, maybe.
15:29Your meditation is on God.
15:30But at the same time, you could go to one of the local, I don't know, meditation classes.
15:37Our YMCA has some various classes.
15:40We could go do something like this and we could feel some of the same feeling.
15:44Does that mean it's from God at the YMCA?
15:46I don't know.
15:47But for me, the bigger question is, whenever they're doing this and they're taking things that you can critically examine
15:57by comparing to the outside world, the non-Christian world, and you can have some of the same emotions, same
16:02experiences, same hype, but they tell you things in these meetings like, you're only going to find that stuff here.
16:09You're only going to feel like this here.
16:11God is moving here.
16:12God's not moving in the church down the street.
16:14Well, the problem is, I started hearing these things and I went to the church down the street.
16:20I start to feel it and I'm like, well, wait a minute.
16:23And especially the Catholic Church, they're cold and formal in the Catholic Church and they all bow down to the
16:28Pope.
16:29That's what we hear, at least from the services that I grew up in.
16:33I've never been to a Catholic service, but I'm certain from talking to other Catholics, they go through the same
16:39motions.
16:40So they're going to feel the same thing and to a Catholic, they'll say, well, I feel God in our
16:45services.
16:45And it's no different than a Protestant feeling God.
16:48The question really comes down to, are you actually making a move of God happen when you do this?
16:56Or are you just using a tool that God gave humanity to help calm themselves and to help, you know,
17:02become a better person?
17:03Because in the end, that's really what it should be about.
17:08However, whenever you're in some of the modern charismatic movements, they stress an urgency in most of the revivals.
17:17So they'll start out with this meditation feeling, this calm, welcoming feeling.
17:23Then they get into the meat and the heart of the subject matter, which raises your anxiety more.
17:28And then at the end of it, there's this call to Jesus that brings you back into the meditation state.
17:34This is something that I analyzed crazy analysis through different services that I'm looking at, different movements.
17:42And they all match that same pattern because if you can bring the heart up to this, I don't know,
17:48this anxious state and your heart's pounding from the things they're saying, then suddenly the altar call or however, however
17:55the church does it or the event where you start to feel that peace.
18:00And suddenly, oh, my gosh, the spirit has moved down upon us.
18:03We're blessed.
18:04And you listen to the speaker doing this kind of thing.
18:07In the end, for me, it's really just a crowd manipulation tool.
18:12But what I have found to be odd, some of the speakers, the ministers and evangelists, they're just so accustomed
18:19to doing it, I don't think that they realize that it is having that effect on their crowds.
18:25I told my husband once, again, because he didn't grow up in this, and so it's just very foreign to
18:30him.
18:31And we did try to attend a non-denominational church when we moved out here.
18:35I was like, well, let's just try.
18:36I have like a great kids program.
18:38But it was when you go in, the lights dim, and then they have like, they have incredible musicians at
18:47the church, like, and they are, they look pretty, you know, they sound amazing, and the music is incredible.
18:56But I'm sitting there, and it's loud, and like, you can hear the drum banging, and like, everyone's there, and
19:03it's like the worship leaders, like, enter in, enter in, like, give your heart to God, you know, God wants
19:08to heal you, God loves you, da-da-da.
19:10Yeah, and I think that the worship leader is genuine, like, but that's how he's been trained, you know, like,
19:15he's a worship leader, like, that's how, in the charismatic movement, like, I, this is how I'm going to drum
19:21you up, like, to get you, whether he genuinely means it or whatever.
19:26But I was telling my husband, it's like, I can't be in this, because it's almost like an addict, like,
19:34it's like, I can't be around this emotional hype or whatever, because it's not healthy for me, because I don't
19:42trust, like, what feelings, like, the kind of feelings that elicits in me.
19:48And I was telling my husband, I was like, you know, I, I could be, like, in these environments, like,
19:57if I didn't have ethics or conscience, like, I could be the next, like, I could say I'm a prophet,
20:05like, you, you can, like, I grew up in it, I've been around it enough to know, I, like, interned
20:10for an itinerant minister, seen it, like, I, I am, I'm also,
20:17like, hyper vigilant, like, my own background or whatever, like, I can use the lingo, I, and could say, like,
20:25you know, let me pray for you, like, and say it in the cadence that, that they have said that,
20:31you know, I have this prophetic word, or I'm feeling that the Lord is telling me this or that.
20:38And I, I could abuse, like, that's how these people abuse power, it's like you attract in, like, broken people,
20:47or whatever, people that want to feel special, that, you know, you get a lot of attention from being anointed
20:53by God, or whatever, or, like, you get a high off of, like, wow, I prophesied over this person, or
20:58I laid hands on them and spent all this time, like, praying for these people, and, you know, for their
21:03healing, or whatever.
21:05And then, I mean, it's, it's just like any guru, like, that's why I say, it reminds me of influencers
21:13or gurus that you see on social media, you know, like, that they have their platforms or whatever, it's, it's
21:21the same thing.
21:22And so, that's when I kind of, when I'm saying, like, you look at patterns, it's like, well, who, who
21:27put this person in charge and said that they were anointed by God?
21:31Like, this person is doing, you know, the same things, and we're giving a lot of, like, authority to this
21:39person, like, you're opening yourself up to them.
21:42And in these environments with people who truly, you know, there are people who are really broken, that they are
21:49desperate for healing, they, you know, they do have, like, mental illness, you know, there's, or whatnot.
21:56And so, they come into these environments being promised, like, you just need a touch from God, like, God will
22:01heal you, you need a touch from God, or whatever.
22:04And so, they do come in, they lower their inhibitions.
22:07And so, there is that, like, atmosphere, too, that does kind of, like, pick up of, like, you sort of,
22:14like, go off the energy of other people until the whole crowd is whipped up.
22:19I mean, it's a whole thing, like, group think, when people talk about, like, the mob mentality, you know, or
22:24it's, like, all of a sudden, everyone, like, freaks out.
22:27And, you know, what happened with this, like, piece in history?
22:30Like, you know, I think about, like, sometimes with, like, mobs in the South or actually all across the country
22:36that, you know, they all got whipped up and would unalive a person, you know, just because the, you know,
22:46one person accused them of something and then everyone, yeah, you just get to get sucked into that.
22:51And so, it's the same thing, I think, with Charismania in a lot of these services.
22:59And honestly, I'm trying not to be, like, you know, judgmental.
23:07But in the same time, like, I really think that these, this whole system itself and the whole, like, charismatic
23:13movement, these churches, these ministries, I think they're disingenuous.
23:17Like, I think that it's unhelpful to, I mean, I know, like, a lot of people are like, well, like,
23:24I, you know, found freedom.
23:25I'm like, I just, no, like, you know, I don't, I don't think they're helpful.
23:30I don't think that, I actually think it's, it's pretty destructive.
23:34And we're sort of, like, keeping a group of people in power with, you know, their, their money, their power
23:41or whatever.
23:42And then they choose, like, the next anointed leader and then throw that person out or whatever.
23:47And it just keeps the whole, like, grift and cycle going with people trapped and, you know, going to healing
23:53service after healing service.
23:55I remember there was a family friend of ours.
23:58Their son had spina bifida, born with that.
24:01But, and they're believers, and I just remember the amount of healing services they went to and, like, Benny Hens
24:09or whatever when their son was young.
24:11And it was like, you know, God's going to heal him.
24:13I see him walking.
24:14I see him, you know, whatever.
24:15This was, like, back in the 90s.
24:17And I, you know, at one point, which I think was wise, the parents were like, we're done.
24:24You know, like, and they, you know, attended a nice little Presbyterian church, and they actually started a foundation for,
24:31you know, their son and other people that suffer with the same illness or whatnot.
24:36And, and I remember, like, people in our community judged them really harshly.
24:42Like, well, they just didn't want it.
24:43Like, they didn't hold on long enough to have the faith that, you know, God said he was going to
24:47be healed.
24:47It's like, at some point, like, you can't keep, like, whipping yourself.
24:52It's exhausting.
24:53That's what I'm trying to, my point.
24:54You're going to service after service.
24:56Like, okay, I'm praying hard.
24:57Like, maybe my healing's now.
24:59Like, I need to hold on to my healing or my deliverance or, you know, the anointing or whatever God
25:04has for me.
25:05And I, you know, these parents, it's exhausting.
25:08It's like, I have a kid with, like, special needs.
25:10So, we got to live in the real world and focus on now.
25:16And that young man is, still has spina bifida, but he went to college.
25:21He has a job.
25:22You know, it's like, there is that versus a lot of times these movements, like the Charismania, the NAR, these
25:31prophets, ministers, whatever.
25:33Like, they keep you trapped in this, like, cycle.
25:37You know, Benny Hinn wouldn't have a job if people were actually healed.
25:40It's like, if people were actually healed, he would not be in business.
25:45But that man is still in business because he knows how to, he's charismatic.
25:50He knows how to sell a brand, like, and people feel good when they go to his services and, you
25:57know, whatever.
25:58And when you come off of the emotional high and you start to feel depressed, well, they have a word
26:03for that, too.
26:04You're being oppressed by the devil.
26:06So, I need to go back to the service, another service, another minister to get another touch from God and
26:12get filled up again or whatever instead of, like, well, let's look at the root.
26:17So, what got me to start thinking outside the box is that, you know, I have to live in the
26:26real world.
26:26I have a job.
26:29I'm married.
26:30Like, I would like to have children.
26:32You know, I have kids now.
26:33But at the time, and I have friendships with normal people, I want to keep those friendships, like, help.
26:41Like, what do I do?
26:42Because I can't keep going to all these, like, worship services, you know, looking for emotional healing or whatever it
26:50was.
26:50And it honestly was just, like, the boring answer, which was, like, what is stable?
26:59Like, what is peaceful?
27:02What is just normal?
27:04You know, it's like, I'm not depressed.
27:06Like, I just got myself whipped up into an emotional frenzy.
27:10Like, let's move through this emotion.
27:13All right, we're good.
27:14Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
27:22reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
27:27You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
27:34On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
27:43John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
27:49You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
27:55If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
28:01top.
28:02And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
28:08watching.
28:08On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
28:14What's interesting about it is I have had to study how bipolar disorder works to try to help my family
28:21member.
28:23When you learn the ups and downs, the ebbs and flows, the highs and the lows, and start to apply
28:30that to the context of having been under indoctrination by a central figure of a cult, the two are actually
28:37very similar.
28:37Because you get up into this manic phase where everything is God, everything is a demon trying to attack you,
28:46everything is making you anxious.
28:48And then there comes this lull after you make peace with all of this, you go to church.
28:54Well, suddenly there comes a time whenever it's just boring.
28:59And I hate to say it, but boring is a natural human thing.
29:02You're supposed to have this, right?
29:03But when you're in this type of movement, you can't really have boring church.
29:08You have to have something.
29:10There has to be an enemy to fight.
29:12And when you're in a bipolar state, once you go through that boring phase, you're off of your manic phase.
29:19Well, now you start to drop into the depressive phase.
29:22So you get really deeply saddened.
29:24You get all of these heightened emotions.
29:26You start to feel just awful.
29:28You feel like something's wrong with you.
29:29And then you bounce back if you're in the bipolar realm.
29:33Well, in the religious realm, once you hit boring church, you're like, well, God's not moving.
29:38What's wrong?
29:38And then you start to become depressed.
29:40God's not moving.
29:41I don't feel it in my life.
29:42I don't feel God.
29:44I must have done something wrong.
29:45And then you go down into the depressive phase.
29:47So, in effect, what they're doing is they're introducing a bipolar-like mentality inside of your brain.
29:55And you can't just have a boring church, which is really odd now that I am out of this and
30:01I'm starting to think about it.
30:03Boring is a state that even in our world today, we've got so much entertainment and YouTube.
30:08And I can flip through channels on my TV.
30:12There's like 2,000 channels, man.
30:14There's never a moment I don't have something to entertain me, right?
30:17So, whenever you're at that level of being entertained, you don't know how to process boring.
30:25I remember when I was growing up, there were times that we would just sit in a chair and we
30:30might have a conversation, but we might also just sit there.
30:32Because boring was something that every human should have.
30:37It brings your brain down to a point where it can start to process things.
30:41And in today's world, the children are struggling because they don't have downtime to process.
30:48When the religious world, it's been that way for decades.
30:51People just are in that hype and in that movement.
30:54When you're doing this and your brain is not allowed to process, you also can't critically think.
30:59Because your brain gets so tired.
31:01And then you go back to church and it tires it out more.
31:05In the end, there are people, I think, who really suffer from actual mental health issues because they stay in
31:12this so long that their brain, which is a muscle, it starts to get tired.
31:15And it can't really function in the same way that it did in a normal, boring church.
31:22Yeah, no, that's true.
31:23It's funny.
31:24We've started going to just a local Episcopal church that's like right up.
31:29We can walk to it or whatever.
31:31And it's my kids actually really like it because it's just the, I mean, the people are so sweet.
31:36It's a bunch of older folks, but they like it because it's just a short service.
31:42It's the routine, you know, they have the, you know, the bulletin that's like the whole service basically on there
31:48so you can, you see.
31:49But for me, there's something that I enjoy about that because it's like, you know, it's, it's a liturgy.
31:59It's, you know, reading the Bible.
32:01It's a short message.
32:04And then it's, we do communion every, every week.
32:09And it just goes through the whole, like on the night he was betrayed, you know, that whole thing.
32:14And so I think, you know, a lot of people that I talk to, they're like, why, how are you
32:19still a Christian?
32:20And I'm like, it's been a long road.
32:24But I think that there is, you know, you can find, I mean, again, no judgment towards people who are
32:33no longer believers.
32:34But I think that's what I was kind of looking for, too, that's honestly led me to Dr. Steve Hassan
32:40or whatever when I was sort of going through this deconstruction and sort of like, what was this?
32:46Was I, I was in a cult my whole life?
32:47I'm like, you know, basically, like it's, you know, wasn't, I think it's hard for us because we're, you know,
32:53I'm like, well, I wasn't like a member of the People's Temple, like Jim Jones or whatever.
32:58And that's how I think a lot of these charismatic churches do that as well.
33:01Like, we're not a cult, you know, like you can leave any time.
33:04And it's like, it's like you use the same tactics.
33:08But back to Dr. Hassan, I appreciated him because when he came out of the Moonies cult, which if you
33:15listen to his, which I know you guys are colleagues or whatever, but like if you listen to his story,
33:22he has the same experience as like Charismania.
33:25You know, he talks about glossolalia or the music.
33:29That's what he said.
33:30He says he misses the music the most from the Moonies.
33:33And this was, he got out in the 70s.
33:35So, I thought that was interesting.
33:37Like, he's talked about the music and the community and that piece.
33:40But what encouraged me and, you know, to continue on is that when he got out of the cult, he
33:47returned to his Jewish faith.
33:49And so, I'm like, okay, you can be out of the cult, like Charismania, whatever, and you can still have
33:55a faith.
33:56Like, that doesn't mean, you know, because that's sort of like, well, is there, there are no, because there are
34:01unexplainable things in the world.
34:03You know, God is big.
34:04If you believe in God, like, there's wonder, you know, there's mystery, whatever.
34:08And some of that we're not meant to know.
34:10You know, I don't, I don't know.
34:12You can just enjoy it for what it is.
34:14And so, that there has been a lot of me deconstructing, quote unquote, reconstructing, and kind of sort of exploring
34:22and finding that.
34:24But it honestly has been getting well mentally.
34:31Like, that truly is, it's, I relate so much to people who grew up inside of cults, and then have
34:41stepped away, and then it's kind of like, what do I do now?
34:46And kind of figuring out what's truth, what's not, what was real, you know, what wasn't.
34:52And so, where, you know, I have some good friends that they love good worship music, and they feel that
34:59they connect to God that way, but they don't, they didn't experience what I did.
35:03They don't, they didn't have that extreme charismania.
35:06So, I'm like, well, that's good for you.
35:08I can't do that.
35:10I cannot.
35:11Like, because I don't trust what it does.
35:14There is a level of mind control in that.
35:18And so, there is this gray area I feel like I'm navigating with faith, but also not getting sucked into
35:29that.
35:30And I really think if you, you step back, I keep saying patterns, I just, I see it so much
35:36in everything.
35:37You mentioned, like, just with not, not being bored, and, you know, there's always something going on to, like, stimulate
35:45you, whether it's on your phone, or I recently took social media off my, just completely, a couple months ago,
35:52just because I'm like, I can't, it's too much.
35:56Like, I'm not bored, or, you know, or thinking, or I'm being influenced by that.
36:00And it just made me think about, like, that's, yeah, you don't ever give your brain a break.
36:06And I think growing up in this, in the Charismatic Church, you don't give your brain a break.
36:14You don't, like, just, honestly, people don't have fun.
36:17Like, they don't, you know, everything has to have a spiritual purpose, or there's a spiritual intensity.
36:23It's this intensity.
36:25I mean, IHOP was like that.
36:26It was, like, this, you know, intensity, like, in the, you know, laboring in the place of prayer, like, fasting,
36:34now we gotta fast, you know?
36:35And there's always, like, you were saying, you also mentioned this urgency.
36:37And I think a lot of times these movements, like the, not move, I keep saying movements, it's the NAR,
36:44it's all these.
36:44And what irritates me, too, is when you say the NAR, they'd be like, we're not NAR.
36:48Like, no one wants to be accountable.
36:50Oh, we're not, you know, that wasn't us, you know?
36:52And that's how, like, this system has been structured, because it's like, we're not NAR, we don't claim that, or,
36:58you know, Sean Bowles, like, he's not a part of us.
37:02Like, it's like, give me a break.
37:04Like, you guys have hosted him and, like, made money off of him, so please.
37:07You know, now he doesn't serve your purpose, so now you're distancing yourself.
37:12But you see it now, like, just in the broader culture.
37:15Like, I'm blown away by the influence that the NAR and the people within there have in our political system
37:25now, today.
37:27Like, compared to, you know, in the 90s, when I was in high school, again, at a Lou Engel conference
37:34getting whipped up, you know, like, Jesus is coming back.
37:38Like, you know, we need to, you know, bring justice and do a silent prayer siege against this abortion clinic.
37:45And, you know, we have a curse on the land because of this and that and this and that.
37:49And they have a whole crowd of fervor, you know, whipped up.
37:53And these people, they just need bodies, and they use, like, especially they pray upon young people.
38:00They use the youth.
38:01They glorify youth.
38:02They use them in order to serve their purposes, whatever that might be, whether they believe in their ministry or
38:09not.
38:12And they sort of pray on that.
38:14And then when people like me get older, and I'm like, I'm exhausted, you know, like, I, you know, what
38:21happened?
38:22Like, I don't even know, like, what way to think.
38:24And then you feel like a big loser because you're like, well, I'm not, I didn't usher in the second
38:29coming of Christ.
38:29And I'm not, like, having healings.
38:33It's like, I actually have to have a job and live in the world.
38:37Yeah, they don't, there's no, there's no tools for that.
38:40They have no use for you anymore.
38:43And I see that happening again, where it's like, I think after what happened to Charlie Kirk, it was disturbing
38:50to me because I would start to see the same figures getting to the youth talking about persecution, you know,
38:59the second coming of Christ, we need revival.
39:01And I'm just like, oh, here we go again.
39:05And so I think that's where in this, I just, I challenge people, like, just allow yourself for a minute
39:13to think who benefits.
39:15And, you know, look at the patterns of history and, you know, look at yourself and be okay with, like,
39:25asking questions like, well, what if I don't participate in this?
39:29I don't know.
39:30There's always, like you're saying, this is urgency.
39:31It's this life and death.
39:32And I think that's how they keep you, you stay stuck and you stay trapped and then the cycle keeps
39:39going.
39:39They keep making money, you know, they keep their power until the next round or the next cycle comes up.
39:48But I do find it interesting, especially the people you've had on your podcast.
39:52It's the same, same characters, Cheon, Lou Engel, you know, the Bethel people, you know, Vineyard, whatever it is.
40:01It's just like, gosh, there's those names again.
40:02So I'm going to embarrass myself just a little bit.
40:06I did something stupid a few years back and I was trying to get healthy and I did actually lose
40:13quite a bit of weight.
40:15And I was fighting pre-diabetes.
40:17I set up a treadmill desk and so I would walk on my desk and I had my keyboard set
40:24up, my monitor.
40:25And I was walking and reading about other people who were doing the same thing.
40:29It was like this get energized, get active kind of thing.
40:33And there's this website that talked about people who were walking enough steps on their treadmill that they had actually
40:39walked around the length of the globe multiple times.
40:43And I'm like, wow, I want to be this person.
40:45So I set it for, you know, you set it for low mileage per hour.
40:50It's like one or two miles an hour.
40:52And then you just walk.
40:53So I was walking six, seven hours a day, which wasn't the right way to do this.
40:58If you're going to do this, don't do what I did.
41:01So I'm walking six or seven hours a day.
41:03And, you know, first week I feel fine.
41:06I'm pretty tired, actually, after I'm done.
41:08But after about two or three weeks, I was walking one day and I felt odd.
41:14I didn't feel like there was any injury.
41:16But I felt odd early on, like one hour into it.
41:20And I went the full six hours, I think it was.
41:23And after six hours, I'm walking the whole time.
41:25I did, you know, most of my work.
41:27And then I turned the treadmill off and stepped down.
41:30Whenever I did, I fell flat on my face.
41:33My legs actually couldn't hold my body up.
41:36And I live in a – I work downstairs, so I was walking upstairs.
41:41I couldn't make it up the stairs.
41:42I actually had to take a knee, and it was difficult.
41:46And I learned real quickly that your body can take a lot of pain and a lot of abuse.
41:53And you may not even know that it's happening if it's happening very, very gradually.
41:58So that's what happened to me.
41:59I think I tore one of my calf muscles.
42:02And so it took a long time to heal.
42:05But I learned in that moment not to do this.
42:08Don't let your body go slowly and slowly endure pain until you can't make it through.
42:15Ironically, as I was processing all of this, I had the same type of thing happen to me from a
42:22mental perspective.
42:23The first time I met Dr. Stephen Hassan, I was going through the decompression phase whenever I first started working
42:32with him.
42:33And I was working with him for somebody else, not for me.
42:36So I'm learning through him how to help other people and kind of piecing all of this together as I'm
42:41going.
42:42I was going through a decompression phase because my body, my mind was doing what my body did on the
42:47treadmill.
42:48I had gradually through 37 years of my life been indoctrinated, been taught this urgency, taught this fear, condemnation, all
42:58of the things that they teach you in these movements.
43:00I did it for so long, I didn't realize the effect it was having on me mentally.
43:06I was a mental wreck, man.
43:09And whenever you leave this, what he describes leaving the Moonies was severe and extreme.
43:16But I started to realize I had the same thing, just in different ways and in different levels.
43:20I was suffering the confusion, the grief, the betrayal.
43:24You felt shame for leaving.
43:26You felt – the biggest one for me, you felt like you had a loss of identity because your identity
43:32was tied to that group.
43:34And it was in the moment that I discovered that tie, that connection between, okay, my identity wasn't mine.
43:42It was given to this group.
43:44And I started to just entangle my identity within the group so that I'm not – when I leave, I'm
43:50not the same person anymore.
43:52And the group is not the same group because it's all kind of woven together.
43:58And I thought about this multiple times.
44:01We tried a few different churches after leaving.
44:04And I would go to a church, and I would stay in it long enough to really become part of
44:09what I was in.
44:10But then when I would leave, I felt the sadness because I had made close friends, connections.
44:16But I left with my identity.
44:19And that, for me, was the biggest thing.
44:21I still was the same person after I left as whenever I was in it.
44:26And some of the friends who I left behind are still my friends.
44:29I'll still go out to dinner with them and whatnot.
44:31So your identity is so molded and shaped into this.
44:36Now combine it with everything else that we've said in this podcast, the emotions, the hype, the euphoria.
44:42Well, when you're in that level of euphoria and your identity is tied to the group,
44:47well, then if you suddenly leave it, all of that that you thought was God is wrapped up in your
44:53identity,
44:53and your identity is left behind.
44:56So people leave, and they think, oh, my gosh, I've left God.
44:59I left God behind.
45:00And it's really sad what they've done to the people.
45:03And in the end, it's all part of the psychological turmoil that they have created unnecessarily
45:10because of trying to keep you in this hype.
45:13Yeah, that's interesting, too.
45:14You're talking about the walking.
45:16You didn't even realize until you had injured your body.
45:20And I think that's the same thing.
45:21I think people like me, when I've had discussions with my two sisters, and we've talked ad nauseum about this,
45:31and they're still believers.
45:33They all go to Presbyterian churches.
45:36But just kind of like, what was that?
45:39And I think a lot of it was like coming out of it, like you're saying, there's a gradual, I
45:42don't even think we realize it,
45:43because it wasn't this dramatic, like, I'm leaving this cult.
45:47It was sort of this slow unraveling and just a lot of years of like, what was that?
45:56Or, gosh, I feel sad.
45:58I feel, you know, did I miss God?
46:01Like, did I not fulfill?
46:03You know, and then there's like, no, I didn't.
46:05Like, do I believe in God still?
46:07Like, you know, a lot of that, and then having to, it's definitely been like a process.
46:13Like you were saying, figuring out, who am I?
46:17Like, what do I like?
46:20How do I act?
46:22Like, what, yeah, who am I?
46:25And I think that, you know, I don't even know how to feel.
46:29Like, is this a real emotion?
46:30Like, was that God or is that not God?
46:34Like, did I just have a bad day?
46:36Like, you know, there's a lot, it's almost like a child, like relearning, like one therapy
46:41modality that was really helpful to me was DBT, dialectic behavior therapy, which sounds
46:47really fancy, but honestly, it was just like group therapy, basic, like, here's the emotion
46:54wheel.
46:56What are you feeling?
46:57You know, it's like when you have a distressing emotion, you know, it's just sort of this,
47:02it's like, and a lot of people in the group were diagnosed with like borderline personality
47:07disorder that I was in the group with.
47:09And it was fascinating because they're describing stuff and I'm like, do I have borderline personality?
47:15You know, I mean, just because it's like the same.
47:17Um, but it was interesting.
47:20There's a woman in the group who was in her sixties and, you know, she had been, she's
47:25like, this is my eighth time doing DBT or whatever.
47:28And there's another young lady in the group who's in her twenties, who this is her first
47:32time.
47:32And she was diagnosed with borderline and this older woman's diagnosed with borderline.
47:36And it was really interesting to hear them share their experience and, you know, what sets
47:41them off and, um, and the older woman was like, you know, well, when my boyfriend broke
47:46up with me in my thirties, I keep, I slashed his tires and bashed in his windows or whatever.
47:52And she was like, but then over time, you know, with like DBT and working on like my, you know,
47:57I don't do that anymore or whatever.
47:59But it was like, the point was like, I'm feeling this way.
48:04Like, why, you know, like maybe I'm feeling it or like just a logical reason, like I'm
48:11tired, I'm hungry, you know, or whatever.
48:14And just sort of like working through that, like, I don't need to follow the rabbit trail
48:18of this intense emotion.
48:20Like this will pass.
48:22And I think a lot of times in these service, like churches or whatever, in this movement,
48:27a lot of broken people, you're attracted in there because you are looking for answers.
48:31Like you want healing, you want deliverance, like this young lady in this DBT group, she's
48:35like, I've wrecked my life.
48:37She's like, I lost a job because like, she was horribly abused as a child.
48:41And so there's a lot of trauma and a lot of grief in that.
48:44And she's like, well, I lost my job because I punched my boss.
48:47It was like that extreme.
48:49And so, but the way for freedom, which, you know, I believe is not like having hands laid
48:57on, you go through deliverance and you hop from service to service.
49:00It's like, I have to deal with these distressing emotions.
49:03I have to face the trauma that I went through and then do the boring, hard work of step by
49:11step.
49:12You know, it's like, I'm not going to swing up and down.
49:15It's just sort of like, not that you don't feel like, but it's like, not every feeling
49:20has a meaning.
49:21You know, it's not a demon.
49:22It's not like God, you know, prophesying that we need to move across the country.
49:26It is just like, it's a feeling, like it's data, you know, like it's not, doesn't define
49:34me.
49:35I don't know if I'm making sense, but I think that for whatever reason, it's such a basic
49:40thing.
49:40I have found healing and freedom in very boring, stable, basic answers.
49:48It's like, it's not extreme.
49:49It's not like the angel of the Lord appeared to me and spoke to me, blah, blah, blah.
49:54That didn't, that never worked for me.
49:56Like, you know, and I think those people that have continued in that way of life, I think
50:03their nervous systems are exhausted.
50:06I don't know how they're continuing in that.
50:11And yeah.
50:12I'm so glad you brought up borderline personality disorder.
50:16I've been wanting to talk about that.
50:18I can't tell you for how long and it's, it's never really come up in a way that I can
50:23do
50:23it justice.
50:24And in the last, what do we have, 10 minutes or so here now, I don't know that I can,
50:28but
50:29I was watching, interestingly, one of these shows, one of these old black and white shows
50:33might've been the Three Stooges.
50:35And the person was reaching out to grab maybe a cookie.
50:39I'm, I'm vaguely remembering what this is.
50:41And I'm picturing this old woman on the other side with this big wooden spatula smacking the
50:47hand every time that he reached out and he kept trying to get it.
50:51She kept smacking his hand.
50:52And over time he realized that if I'm going to reach my hand out, she's going to smack
50:56my hand and he stopped doing it.
50:58That's a trained mechanism, right?
51:01You're trained not to reach your hand out because you're smacked.
51:03Picture your hand being smacked for 37 years.
51:07And then suddenly you walk out of the building.
51:10You're never going to reach for the thing again for the next, who knows, 20 years.
51:14If you ever do, you're never going to reach out because you remember your hand getting smacked.
51:19We, in the group that I left, felt like if somebody was, had this diagnosis, this was a curse.
51:26You were cursed by a demon.
51:28Demons have infected you.
51:29It might be for the rest of your life.
51:31And it's not really like that.
51:33It's a trained disorder.
51:35It's you, your emotions, your actions, your history, your personality, and your circumstances
51:43all contribute to your personality.
51:47And it may contribute in a bad way and you may end up with a disorder.
51:50And you have to work through processes to correct that over time.
51:54So, people who are in a movement who is continually manipulating their heads with things like the world is about
52:02to end, we must be prepared,
52:05you're going to eventually start to mold and shape their personality.
52:09That's why, when I said the identity was wrapped in, that's exactly what it is.
52:13Well, the problem is, some of the leaders are very obnoxious whenever they speak, and they themselves have a tremendous
52:22personality disorder,
52:23and they're introducing that disorder to the crowd.
52:25So, the crowd, over time, they start to adopt it, and then they start to show similarities in their own
52:30personalities.
52:31You've taken the cult's identity, and the identity had a disorder, as weird as that sounds.
52:39Well, somebody who, like for me, who was in this for 37 years, all of my personality flaws that I
52:46can trace back to the group are very, very difficult to correct.
52:51I still say things, I do things, I take actions that, after I do it, I'm like, you know, that's
52:56not right.
52:57That's not how people should behave, but that's the way we behaved.
53:00And the point I'm trying to make, in this very quick rant that I have, is that you can be
53:07in one of these groups,
53:08and they can give you a personality disorder that takes years to actually correct and overcome.
53:15Yeah, so interesting.
53:16I wish we had talked about this earlier, too, because I think that's where, you know, I started to, you
53:24know,
53:25because I would do years of therapy, and I would still have the same, like, response, or, like, you know,
53:33my husband and I would get in the same argument, or I'm like, why can't I, like, I've been in
53:38therapy, I'm, like, learning else.
53:39It wasn't until a few years ago, I read a, I started listening to this podcast called Navigating Narcissism, or
53:46whatever,
53:47and she interviewed a young lady named Stephanie Fu, who wrote a book called What My Bones Know,
53:53and she talked about something I'd never heard, which was complex PTSD, and I was like, that is what I
54:00have, you know,
54:01or I have, you know, people, you know, roll your eyes, but no, it's like, and that, it's really interesting
54:07now
54:07with, like, a lot of the studies, and I have a good friend that's a psychologist, too.
54:11She was saying that they're kind of moving more towards not diagnosing people with borderline
54:16personality disorder, but more, like, complex PTSD, like, it's something you can work through and heal,
54:21so it's like what you were saying, it's, you know, you're not like, well, you're stuck with this,
54:25but these groups, you know, whatever, they would probably call it a demon, but, like, you, you don't heal.
54:32It keeps you stuck in reliving these, like, little traumas, or you keep, you stay in the same
54:40cycle of the borderline, you know, the highs and the lows, that I'm sobbing one day, and then I'm
54:46euphoric the next day, like, that, and that's why when I was sitting in these groups, and I'm hearing
54:52them describe their, you know, they're like, I'm diagnosed with borderline personality disorder,
54:57and here is the way in which it manifests, and I'm like, okay, that could be me, and I also
55:04see
55:05every person that I've ever been around in this charismatic movement that have these wild swings
55:13that say, oh, that is the Holy Spirit, that is Jesus, or that's a demon attacking me, or this is
55:19spiritual warfare, we have this urgency, or whatever, and it's like, no, like, that, that's a mental
55:26illness. And so, I think that's what reading about it, reading people's experiences, even
55:35outside of the church, and sort of, again, seeing those patterns in my own life, and, but also the
55:42hope of seeing, like, you know, we're always growing and changing, and it is biblical, it's
55:48like, God talks about working your faith, you know, working out your faith, like, Jesus talks
55:53about that, it's not, like, you know, whatever, like, it takes time, like, you know, we're human.
55:59And so, I think there's a level of, like, freedom for me, hearing, you know, that older woman who was
56:04diagnosed with it, talk about, over time, healing, working, accepting reality, and, like, moving through
56:15it, where she doesn't have those wild swings or reactions anymore. And, yeah, I think in these
56:24movements, especially, and we could, I'm sure you'll have people that could talk about this,
56:27too, and you can research it on the internet, but it's like, Bethel has something called, like,
56:32Sozo, like, their inner healing, which is pulled from Randy Clark's deliverance ministry, or whatever.
56:39And those, like, if you read about it, like, those things are so destructive, it's so, like,
56:43it should be outlawed, like, in a sense, because it just, it keeps, they're not trained, like,
56:49and they keep a person with, like, a borderline or trauma that has, like, experienced, like,
56:54a lot of traumas in their past, they have mental illness, stuck in that, and attribute, and it makes
57:00it worse, because they attribute it to, like, spiritual things, like, my salvation, me not
57:07burning in hell is connected to, you know, whatever they're, you know, they teach in these
57:13episodes. Anyway, that's a rabbit trail I'm going on, but.
57:15Yeah, it's such a mess. I mean, really, we probably should do a full episode talking through that,
57:20because it is very similar, and I don't know if people realize how connected it is, but I have,
57:27I have personally been to see a therapist multiple times, and I recommend if you have been impacted
57:33by this group or anything similar, it's probably good to go through and just, you know, it's like
57:38going to a doctor, find out what's wrong, see, see what help we can get, and move on through your
57:44life,
57:44you can suddenly start to feel better, and, and life becomes much better, so thank you so much for
57:49doing this. Yeah, thank you. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can
57:54check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branum.org. For more about the dark side
57:59of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to
58:03the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
58:24Here we go.
58:26Here we go.
58:29Here we go.