Out of Control: When Churches Become Corporations | Pia Hugo | Podcast Episode 659 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Pia examine how modern church systems can transform from small spiritual communities into large religious machines driven by money, growth, hierarchy, and control. Pia introduces the concept of “financial gravity” and connects it to her own experience inside People of Destiny International, later Sovereign Grace Ministries, and the wider world that helped shape the New Apostolic Reformation.  The discussion traces connections between William Branham’s influence, the Shepherding Movement, Derek Prince, TAG, PDI, Larry Tomczak, C.J. Mahaney, Che Ahn, John Wimber, church growth strategy, and the N.A.R. system. Pia also shares painful memories of how authoritarian teaching on family, discipline, and obedience affected her children and marriage, showing why these doctrines are not merely abstract theology but can have devastating real-world consequences.   00:00 Introduction 01:56 Pia’s Background and the Historical Roots of the NAR 04:00 Financial Gravity: How Successful Organizations Lose Their Purpose 09:09 Target, Chick-fil-A, and Competing Corporate Models 16:37 The Modern Church as a Money-Making Machine 20:06 When Churches Place the Institution Above the People 24:41 Pia’s Introduction to People of Destiny International 29:04 End-Times Theology and Sacrificing a Career for the Movement 32:47 Working for PDI and the Expected Role of Women 35:54 Branhamism, Shepherding, and the Religious Pyramid 39:59 Derek Prince and PDI’s Financial Growth 42:52 Take and Give: The Origins of PDI 48:42 “God, the Rod, and Your Child’s Bod” 51:04 How Church Teaching Enabled Abuse 54:01 Why Pia Is Exposing NAR Leaders 55:51 Connecting TAG, Shepherding, Branhamism, and the NAR 59:00 Conclusion ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Pia Hugo, former member

00:00:46of the New Apostolic Reformation.

00:00:48Pia, it's good to be back and to talk about the system.

00:00:51We've given people just a broad overview of what this system is and how it created the

00:00:58New Apostolic Reformation, but it's a much bigger thing, I think, than people realize,

00:01:03and it goes back through a very, very long time, a lot further than people realize.

00:01:08So when people look at all of the news today and they see the politics and the money and

00:01:12the crowds and all of this mess, they think it's something that just happened, but it

00:01:18didn't just happen.

00:01:19It's sort of like a snowball that's going down a hill.

00:01:22It gets bigger and bigger, but it started with this little tiny thing, and if you're

00:01:27not watching it, then by the time it crashes through your house, it's gotten so big that

00:01:32it did it along the way.

00:01:34It grew along the way.

00:01:36Today we're going to talk about some of those major milestones of that, and it all goes back

00:01:42to this.

00:01:42The system has existed for a very long period of time, and it started to generate a lot

00:01:48of money over time, and the system has gotten so out of control that I don't think anyone

00:01:54can really steer this thing.

00:01:56Hi, John.

00:01:57Thanks for having me again, and you're absolutely right.

00:02:01I have started to really listen to a lot of your videos going back all the way to the

00:02:09Azusa Street Revival back in 1906.

00:02:13And all the characters that you mentioned in your videos are very familiar to me, but

00:02:19not in the way that you describe.

00:02:22They were seen as almost like demigods, you know, like William Seymour, you know, and Charles

00:02:30Parham and all of them guys, like William Bramman, you know, himself.

00:02:34Like, they were always like these men that we should all just emulate and how anointed

00:02:46they were, and we needed to, like, finish what they started.

00:02:52And I am here to say to your audience, can we not, can we not finish what they started?

00:03:00Can we just really put a halt to this whole machine?

00:03:06You know, we've called the NAR system, the well-oiled money-making machine.

00:03:13And I am, you know, very happy and honored to be in your podcast because I want to help

00:03:22you and I want to help anybody else out there who want to expose the dangers of this system.

00:03:32Because really, it's hurt so many people and it really needs to stop.

00:03:40So, today I wanted to talk about, before I talk about my own personal experiences with

00:03:50NAR and the organization I was a part of prior to NAR, which is PDI, People of Destiny International.

00:04:01But before I talk about that, I wanted to bring up this concept that I just discovered, John.

00:04:09So, as you know, I'm a former history and economics teacher, so I'm always reading up on the latest.

00:04:20And this author, he's a businessman, and he's authored a few other business books, but this

00:04:30one just came out this past May, 2026.

00:04:33And his name is Eric Ries, R-I-E-S.

00:04:38And he has a book entitled, Incorruptible.

00:04:42Why Good Companies Go Bad and How Great Companies Stay Great.

00:04:50So, the title really, like, caught my attention, and I just kind of took a look at it.

00:04:56And I was surprised that this concept that he came up with, financial gravity, like, how

00:05:04relevant it really is to what you and I have been talking about, you know, within the NAR system.

00:05:11So, let me just talk about what financial gravity is.

00:05:15So, Rice asserts that the more successful an organization becomes, the more outside forces

00:05:24come into play.

00:05:26So, as the company grows, you've got investors, lawyers, board directors, stakeholders, and, you

00:05:36know, clients, like, high-end, like, demanding clients.

00:05:46They begin to exert a gravitational pull.

00:05:52He calls it a gravitational pull that he has since dubbed financial gravity.

00:06:00So, the pressure forces the original founders and leaders of the company to begin prioritizing

00:06:10short-term financial gains at the expense of the long-term purpose of the company.

00:06:19And so, what they don't realize, what these leaders don't realize, is that it's actually

00:06:25a downward pull.

00:06:27That's why he calls it a gravity.

00:06:29It pulls them down in the long run.

00:06:33And many of these once successful companies, they never recover.

00:06:38So, Rice doesn't believe that it is outright corruption or bad managers that destroy most companies.

00:06:48He believes it's the nature of business growth.

00:06:53And so, John, this goes back to what you and I were saying, that you can have really nice,

00:07:00well-meaning, well-intentioned Christian leaders who just want to spread the gospel and they

00:07:10want to start good churches.

00:07:12But eventually, they seem to turn bad because of this gravitational pull by external forces.

00:07:24So, I'm going to try to explain further, financial gravity can show up in small moments, like when

00:07:31somebody decides not to speak up, like at a board meeting, because the president or the

00:07:38founder says, oh, well, you know, this is really what the investors want and this is how we're going

00:07:44to make more money.

00:07:45So, you, you might be, you know, a smart board member and you're thinking, huh, well, this might

00:07:55work in the short run, but in the long run, we might actually hurt people, but they stay silent

00:08:03because, again, it's this subtle but powerful pull, right, gravitational pull towards making more money.

00:08:15Or, financial gravity can show up when there's a team within the company and they opt for what's

00:08:24easier, what's more convenient, and usually what is heavily compromised.

00:08:33Because they think, again, it's going to look better for the quarterly financial reports.

00:08:40Maybe we can get raises from the boss because, again, it's no longer about the purpose.

00:08:47It's about making that quick buck.

00:08:52So, over time, these small choices then become the default.

00:08:59And what started out as seemingly small and harmless choices, they start becoming the norm.

00:09:08And then the norm becomes the culture within the company.

00:09:13So, I'll give you some examples in the financial corporate world.

00:09:18So, you know, Target, right?

00:09:23We all, you know, have been to Target stores at least once in our life, I think.

00:09:30So, Target, about a decade ago, began celebrating Pride Month.

00:09:39So, this is June.

00:09:41This happens to be Pride Month for people who don't know.

00:09:46And so, Target decided that they were going to be more, you know, friendlier to the LBGTQ community.

00:09:58And they wanted a broader corporate diversity and inclusion strategy.

00:10:07So, in their research, the initiative was supposed to, again, bring more money.

00:10:18Because it would expand their customer base.

00:10:26So, they tried it.

00:10:29And for a while, it kind of worked.

00:10:33Because it did bring in newer customers who normally did not shop at Target.

00:10:41Over time, however, Target experienced serious backlash.

00:10:49I'm sure you know this, John.

00:10:52Because the long-standing customer base of Target, surprise, surprise,

00:11:01included a lot of conservative, family-oriented, family-oriented customers, right?

00:11:11And they were not happy to see Pride t-shirts, Pride toys, Pride, you know, just kiddie merchandise on display.

00:11:25So, what happened in 2023, there was this viral social media boycott and even in-store confrontations regarding these specific

00:11:43merchandise.

00:11:43And all that negative media caused Target to, for the first time in history, have significant sales drops.

00:11:57And all of a sudden, the board of directors, all these people who thought it was a great idea, they

00:12:04all started backtracking.

00:12:06And now, they still do have some pride displace, but significantly reduced.

00:12:15So, what you're talking about is more important than people realize.

00:12:18And it's something that I'm glad that you went there because I want to continue to go there as we

00:12:23talk.

00:12:24What we're talking about in the business world, we call it growing pains.

00:12:27You grow, and if you're not cautious how you grow, you're going to have pains.

00:12:31And some of those pains can actually destroy your business.

00:12:34You can lose your business over the growing pains.

00:12:37Now, take that concept and apply that to a church.

00:12:41Every church, like it or not, big or small, is a business.

00:12:45It has to be a business to run, to operate.

00:12:47To keep the lights on, it has to run like a business.

00:12:50I have talked to so many people who say, we were in this really good church.

00:12:56Everybody loved everybody.

00:12:57It was this nice, small church.

00:12:59And suddenly, they grew so large, so quickly.

00:13:02And when they did, we didn't like it.

00:13:05No longer are we close to the people.

00:13:06It feels cold and formal.

00:13:08They'll use the Lateran words, which is kind of funny.

00:13:11But they'll talk about the things that they miss about how when it was smaller.

00:13:15And that's because the church itself has had growing pains.

00:13:19They grew very quickly.

00:13:21They grew as a business very quickly.

00:13:23They're generating a lot of revenue.

00:13:25But they didn't do it in a way that appealed to their primary customer, which is the congregants.

00:13:30And so this is a huge problem.

00:13:33Now, take that concept and think back to C. Peter Wagner and John Wimber.

00:13:39Teaching church growth strategy.

00:13:41How can you make your churches explode?

00:13:44How can you make them grow quickly?

00:13:46And I know that there are some Wimber crowd out there that are going to argue in the comments,

00:13:50no, Wimber was not like this.

00:13:52Go back and talk to some of the people who knew him in the early years.

00:13:55It was the church growth strategy that he was part of.

00:13:59And he was connected to PDI, which I've mentioned a few times cautiously because I'm still exploring that.

00:14:05But we're going to go deeper with the connection with church growth strategy to PDI, which is connected to,

00:14:12we'll get into this more, the shepherding, discipling programs.

00:14:16And that is the bridge back to Branhamism that everybody seems to be missing.

00:14:21Yeah, I'm excited.

00:14:24Yeah, so going back to like the financial gravity concept, he gives an example of companies that actually did stay

00:14:43true to their original purpose.

00:14:47And so, my example that I want to bring up today is Chick-fil-A.

00:14:52Okay.

00:14:53So, I don't know.

00:14:55Where do you live again, John?

00:14:57Are you allowed to say?

00:14:59I'm allowed to say.

00:15:00I'm in Indiana.

00:15:01You're in Indiana.

00:15:01I go to Chick-fil-A.

00:15:03I love it, but I can't go there on Sunday.

00:15:05That's right.

00:15:06Because they're close.

00:15:08Because, again, it's a Christian-run company that has stayed really true to their roots.

00:15:14And I'm going to read what they said about Pride Month because I just saw it like a day ago.

00:15:21And I'm very impressed by how they're approaching this whole Pride Month thing.

00:15:27They said that we are proud to protect our values and stay grounded in what we believe.

00:15:36Respect for others does not require us to celebrate or endorse every message or every movement.

00:15:46We will not change who we are to appeal to the crowd.

00:15:51We will not compromise our beliefs for approval.

00:15:56Our position is simple.

00:15:58We will remain respectful, but we will also remain true to our principles.

00:16:07Now, why can't we do that as a church?

00:16:12If Chick-fil-A, which is a true money-making enterprise, they're not hiding that, right?

00:16:18They're not pretending to be a church.

00:16:20They're not pretending to be a Christian ministry.

00:16:23They flat out came out and said, well, hey, we're going to try to make the best chicken you've ever

00:16:28had.

00:16:29But we also happen to be Christian.

00:16:34So, yeah, exactly what you were saying earlier.

00:16:37I wrote down here, today, many churches and ministries have embraced this all-American modern worship production.

00:16:48Okay, I wrote this down.

00:16:50It's the high-end sound systems.

00:16:53It's the atmospheric lighting.

00:16:56It's the fog machines.

00:16:59It's the digital billboards.

00:17:02The mega-sized entertainment screens.

00:17:06The coffee bars.

00:17:08And don't forget, we've got to have preachers who know how to wear trendy clothing.

00:17:15In fact, apparently, it's kind of a thing for them to tell their audience.

00:17:21This is where I got this T-shirt.

00:17:23This is where I got these sneakers.

00:17:27I mean, I remember watching one sermon.

00:17:30I'm like, why is he saying that?

00:17:32You know, I'm so naive.

00:17:33And it's like, oh, because they're being paid.

00:17:37They're being paid to advertise these brands.

00:17:40And, I mean, honestly, they're not even trying to hide just a little bit that they are money-making machines.

00:17:49So, and again, going back to why is it that there is no one on staff, there is no board

00:17:59member, there's no one in the congregation saying or shouting like, hey, can you just stick to the gospel?

00:18:09We don't care what you're wearing, you know, we just want to hear the word of God.

00:18:15But it's that financial gravity.

00:18:20No one wants to speak out.

00:18:22No one wants to challenge these pastors, these preachers, because it's all tied to their income.

00:18:30They all work for the company or the church, sorry, church slash company.

00:18:37You know, they all work for them or they're so invested already, right?

00:18:43They've been there for years.

00:18:45They've given their heart and soul to these church organizations.

00:18:53Like, and again, they've been lulled.

00:18:56They've been lulled into complacency.

00:18:59So, or I like, I watched your podcast with your interview with Judith and Vincent Desjardins.

00:19:11Everybody needs to watch that one.

00:19:13I really enjoyed that.

00:19:14And I think it was Judith who dubbed these churches the Church of Codependency or something like that.

00:19:21Yes.

00:19:21I thought that was perfect.

00:19:23I called it complacency.

00:19:25She calls it codependency.

00:19:26It's the same thing.

00:19:28You shut off your critical thinking skills and now you're just going with the flow.

00:19:33And, I mean, it's one thing if the flow was just false teachings.

00:19:45But it's more than that.

00:19:47It's more than that.

00:19:48It's become really, really dangerous and poisonous.

00:19:53And I really want to get to that later on, how my own family, my own children really suffered because

00:20:03we were in this system.

00:20:05I'm really glad that you brought up Chick-fil-A for multiple reasons.

00:20:09Number one, when you started mentioning the chicken, my mouth is watering and I'm actually struggling to speak because my

00:20:15mouth is watering.

00:20:16But number two, the bigger reason.

00:20:18Let's think about this for a minute.

00:20:21Church was made for the people, not people made for the church.

00:20:24But in today's modern, weird world, they have it flipped totally upside down where you are made for the church

00:20:32and you must be tied to that church.

00:20:35Had a conversation just yesterday with a guy.

00:20:37This is spread globally.

00:20:39And I was talking to a guy in Costa Rica and he says, that's even spread into Costa Rica.

00:20:43He said, I was just invited to go play guitar or something at another church.

00:20:48And whenever I said I was going to go there, they said something to the effect, well, what have they

00:20:53got that we don't have here at our church?

00:20:55Because they think the church, it's just upside down.

00:20:59The whole thing's wrong.

00:21:01Chick-fil-A does one thing right besides the chicken.

00:21:04That is, that's actually even more powerful if you think about this.

00:21:09They recognized how people changed over time and how they, the average customer, they're there at Chick-fil-A because

00:21:19they want in and out quickly.

00:21:21They want to be very, very quick.

00:21:22They're busy.

00:21:24They've got, you know, a few minutes on lunch break.

00:21:26We've got to go get chicken, come back.

00:21:28And Chick-fil-A is the darndest, fastest place you can go to.

00:21:33They have modified all of their drive-thru lines where when you go through the drive-thru, there's multiple lanes.

00:21:38There are people out front.

00:21:40Other businesses have now started to replicate what Chick-fil-A created with their model.

00:21:46And what they did was they found out we're not made.

00:21:51It goes back to what I said about the church.

00:21:54We're made for those people.

00:21:57Those people aren't made for us.

00:21:58We need to tailor what we do.

00:22:00Our business strategy needs to be around those people.

00:22:03When you have a church that is built upside down, they're doing what every other vendor is doing wrong that's

00:22:10competing with Chick-fil-A.

00:22:11They're trying to say, we're it.

00:22:13We're the big one.

00:22:14We're the one wearing the fancy clothes, and you should wear our clothes, and here's the brand.

00:22:19They care more about themselves than they do the people.

00:22:22And Chick-fil-A did that right.

00:22:24The problem that I see, as this grows and continues over time, it's part of what I said earlier.

00:22:29It is the growing pains.

00:22:30You grow so big that you're so invested in yourself that you forget about the customer, which is something that

00:22:37every business that grows, there comes a point when they do it by mistake, and if they catch themselves fast

00:22:42enough, they can correct, and their business can grow really, really big.

00:22:48But those who don't, they fall flat on their face.

00:22:52And in my opinion, the churches that are doing this, that think that the people are made for us, to

00:22:58serve us, those are the churches that are going to fall flat on their face.

00:23:01Exactly.

00:23:02I mean, and again, like I said earlier, if Chick-fil-A was able to retain their original purpose, right?

00:23:13They know why people go there, because it's yummy chicken, and it's fast service, simple.

00:23:19I don't understand why we as a church cannot just keep it just as simple.

00:23:26But the gospel, the gospel is not complicated.

00:23:31So church is unfortunately, like you said, no longer there for the people, right?

00:23:37It's supposed to be a safe space where broken people can go and have an encounter with Jesus,

00:23:44where they can hear the truth of the gospel, and they can get saved and healed and delivered.

00:23:51And that's it.

00:23:53By the power of the cross, that's it.

00:23:56Nothing to do with us.

00:23:57Nothing to see here.

00:23:59We're just ordinary people all pointing to the cross.

00:24:04However, because now we are also a business, now, like you said, we've grown, more and more people are coming

00:24:15to our churches.

00:24:16Now we are that well-oiled money-making machine, and we just need to keep the wheels and the cogs

00:24:28spinning.

00:24:31Because if we don't, everything is just going to collapse, and we will have nothing to show for it.

00:24:38So, I mean, that's what they think.

00:24:41So, I just want to get more personal now that I've, you know, you and I get it.

00:24:47It's called financial gravity, according to this guy, Eric Rice.

00:24:52All right, so you mentioned PDI, People of Destiny International.

00:24:57So, before Gnar exploded into the scene, really in 1994, when Toronto Blessing came into California, right?

00:25:08And see Peter Ragnar, Che On, Lou Angle really caught the fire.

00:25:14And now it's like taking over the land.

00:25:19So, before Gnar came PDI.

00:25:25And how I was introduced to PDI was through my former brother-in-law, Che On.

00:25:34Because Che On was best friends with Larry Tomczak and CJ Mahaney.

00:25:42These are his words.

00:25:42So, back in 1986, when I first met Che, and then married his brother, upon his recommendation, by the way,

00:25:56I honestly don't think I would have married my ex-husband if Che and Sue weren't so convinced that it

00:26:07was God's will for me to marry Sue's brother.

00:26:10So, anyway, that's a different story.

00:26:15So, now that my husband and I needed a church to go to, because Che and Sue, by this time,

00:26:24they were in California.

00:26:26They had started their own PDI church over there called Abundant Life Community Church.

00:26:33Okay, this was, they started it in 1984.

00:26:38So, now we're in 1986.

00:26:41We're married, me and Sue's brother.

00:26:44But we're still living in Maryland.

00:26:46Okay, we're not yet part of Abundant Life Community Church.

00:26:51I was still in college.

00:26:54I went to George Washington University.

00:26:57I was getting my degree in economics and finance.

00:27:02And so, Che said, oh, you should definitely go to my buddy's church, my buddy CJ.

00:27:11So, I would like you to put up this photograph of his buddy, Che's buddy, CJ Mahaney.

00:27:19And that is a photo of me and my husband being introduced to the church.

00:27:29We were newlyweds.

00:27:33We were baby Christians.

00:27:36I think that was when I was like maybe 20 years old.

00:27:44And I was just thrilled, so excited to be part of this cutting edge church that was so anointed.

00:27:59And according to Che On, CJ Mahaney and his other buddy, Larry Tomczak, like these were the two men that

00:28:08was going to change the world.

00:28:11And I was so blessed that I got to be, you know, part of what CJ Mahaney and Larry Tomczak

00:28:22were doing, you know, in Washington, D.C.

00:28:26So, all right.

00:28:29So, now that I look back, I mean, I'm laughing because, oh, my gosh, how gullible could I have been?

00:28:39And just drinking the Kool-Aid by the pitcher.

00:28:46And so, I quickly became part of CLC, Covenant Life Church.

00:28:51And when I graduated in 1988, two years later, I even decided to work for them, John.

00:29:04Now, mind you, I have a degree in economics and finance.

00:29:09And I actually had job offers at, you know, these banks and financial firms.

00:29:18You know, I had interned in one of these financial investments firm.

00:29:25And it was my original career goal to become a financial analyst, John.

00:29:33This was before I met my husband, before I met Shea, before I met Sue, before I was part of

00:29:39this whole system.

00:29:40I was a normal, quote-unquote normal, college kid that wanted to have, you know, a good career.

00:29:56Nothing wrong with that.

00:29:58But I remember what your guests were saying, you know, I think it was Judith who said that back in

00:30:07the day, in the 1980s,

00:30:10if you were a part of these churches, that meant that you were totally into the end times theology.

00:30:20You believed that any moment now, Jesus was going to show up and rapture all of us, and we would

00:30:30be spared the seven-year tribulation.

00:30:32So, heck, if that's my future, if that is my immediate future, what good is it for me to save

00:30:42my money for a nice house?

00:30:45What good is it that I pursue this career in finance when we all need to just be about preparing

00:30:57for the coming of Jesus Christ, which was very imminent?

00:31:02So, I turned down all those job offers, John.

00:31:07And I decided to become the assistant to the comptroller and the conference director of PDI.

00:31:18It's a nice title for a glorified secretary.

00:31:23That's basically what I was.

00:31:25In fact, during my interviews, I was told by the financial controller, nice guy, smart guy.

00:31:36He actually told me, like, you know, you can be making more money elsewhere.

00:31:43I'm just curious, like, why would you want to work for us?

00:31:48And I said, oh, this is where it's happening, though.

00:31:52Like, you know, this is worth it for me, you know.

00:31:57And he said, yeah, but you're overqualified for this position.

00:32:00And I said, oh, I don't care, you know.

00:32:02Like, I could be cleaning the toilets and, you know, whatever, taking care of babies.

00:32:08Or you just put me anywhere you want because I just want to be part of the most amazing anointed

00:32:18movement on planet Earth right now.

00:32:20Like, I totally believe that.

00:32:25And so I remember the comptroller kind of scratching his head because I don't think he was fully, I don't

00:32:31think he himself was fully convinced.

00:32:36But the other guy, you know, the conference director is like, oh, yeah, yes and amen, you're hired.

00:32:41So, anyway, this is 1988.

00:32:46So, now I had CJ.

00:32:49Oh, and there's a picture I sent you.

00:32:51And you can pull that up now.

00:32:53So, this is a picture of me with the other female employees at PDI.

00:33:02And it was my baby shower.

00:33:05And it was actually one of my last days as a full-time employee at PDI.

00:33:13I continued to work for them part-time.

00:33:16Like, I would work, like, a few hours during the week helping them out.

00:33:20But as soon as I got pregnant, I was told by my big boss, Larry Tomczak, who was the head

00:33:31of PDI, that I could no longer work for them.

00:33:35Not because I was incompetent.

00:33:37I was told that I was one of their most hardworking employees, blah, blah, blah.

00:33:43But because I was a woman, John, and a woman, again, I'm going to bring in what Judith said in

00:33:55your interview.

00:33:57A woman has to be a Proverbs 31 woman.

00:34:02And she had to serve all her days as a homemaker and as a mother.

00:34:12And if you can homeschool, even better.

00:34:16And that was your place in the world.

00:34:20So, even though I enjoyed my job and I was good at it, you know, they told me, oops, you

00:34:26got pregnant.

00:34:27So, your days are numbered.

00:34:31So, I just remember this day, like, you know, I was enjoying myself.

00:34:35They were honoring me.

00:34:37But I was also very sad because now I lost my full-time job.

00:34:43And I wondered to myself, like, how are we going to make it, my husband and I, you know, because,

00:34:50you know, we were struggling.

00:34:52We were struggling newlywed couple.

00:34:54Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

00:35:03reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

00:35:08You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

00:35:15On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

00:35:24John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

00:35:29You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

00:35:36If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

00:35:42top.

00:35:43And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

00:35:49watching.

00:35:49On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:35:54So, now we have talked about snowballs going down hills, churches that are businesses, Chick-fil-A, Target, PDI, which

00:36:03for people who don't know is People of Destiny International.

00:36:07I want to bring all of these things together and tie it to the research because I think people will

00:36:13understand that there is a means, there's a method to the madness that I'm doing here.

00:36:18So, William Branham laid all of the framework of doctrine that described what you believed in the 80s.

00:36:26People were talking about doomsday.

00:36:27It was a doomsday cult.

00:36:29Like it or not, that's what it was.

00:36:31He developed this into a system that was replicated.

00:36:35And many ministers replicated it, often taking what he taught as doctrine but not mentioning his name.

00:36:42And so, it was spreading far and wide.

00:36:46Branhamism was spreading but in different names with different people.

00:36:49And at the same time as the snowball is going down the hill, church was being flipped upside down.

00:36:54You people are made for this church.

00:36:57And if you're not made for this church, we're getting ready to go.

00:37:00We're going to be the ones to leave.

00:37:02And if you're not with us, you're going to be doomed.

00:37:05That was the – I remember clearly that's what it was like in the 80s.

00:37:09And that was – I was in Branhamism, but far and wide this developed and grew.

00:37:13Branham died in 1965.

00:37:16Right after he died – I mean, if you look at the timeline and piece it all together,

00:37:22understanding what each person is doing, it looks like it was within months after his death.

00:37:29His campaign manager, Ern Baxter, and four other guys started the shepherding movement.

00:37:34Now, remember, church has been flipped upside down.

00:37:36You people are made for us, the church.

00:37:39Well, now theology starts to build on this.

00:37:42The snowball gets bigger.

00:37:43It's not just that it's the church.

00:37:46You people are made to listen to us ministers.

00:37:49We're apostles.

00:37:50We're prophets.

00:37:51We're teachers.

00:37:52We're fivefold.

00:37:53You people were made to serve us.

00:37:55That's really how it got flipped upside down, although they wouldn't come out and say that.

00:37:59And then these five guys come up with a harebrained notion that it's a discipling thing that we're

00:38:05doing.

00:38:05We're going to create disciples, just like in the Bible, only they did not understand that

00:38:10the disciples – Jesus was teaching them to serve others.

00:38:14It wasn't that the people were serving the disciples.

00:38:17And you find no scripture that says this.

00:38:20It just does not exist.

00:38:22So what happened?

00:38:23Because the church model was flipped upside down, now discipling was flipped completely

00:38:28upside down.

00:38:29And they created it as a hierarchy.

00:38:31So you had the shepherds shepherding other shepherds, shepherding other shepherds to the people.

00:38:36And what is this?

00:38:37In business, we call it a pyramid scheme.

00:38:40There's the guys at the top, and then there's the little people at the bottom.

00:38:43So they created a business religious pyramid scheme.

00:38:48And if you follow all of the traces of discipling out to its marketing materials and its advertising

00:38:58materials, you're going to find, if you go through People of Destiny, the magazine, not

00:39:02the company, you're going to find shepherding all through it, because they were working like

00:39:06this.

00:39:06They were hand in hand.

00:39:08And it's the bridge to the NAR, because John Wimber is also being advertised heavily in

00:39:13this.

00:39:14He's buying into the shepherding.

00:39:15He's buying into the church model that's flipped upside down.

00:39:19But in Wimber's view, it's teetering.

00:39:23It's teetering back and forth between, I want people to have a real experience, but

00:39:28how do we give them experience?

00:39:30We've just had this Jesus movement where they don't know anything.

00:39:33We need to teach them.

00:39:34We need to shepherd them.

00:39:35And they're going to go every which way.

00:39:38So we've got to kind of control them and corral them.

00:39:41And so he used shepherding as a vehicle for a good purpose, but that good purpose started

00:39:48to go awry, because like we said, if you don't grow the church model correctly, if you

00:39:52don't grow the business correctly, the business will fail.

00:39:55Oh, my gosh.

00:39:57I love how the work that you've done and your research, you know, based on the distant past

00:40:06for me anyway.

00:40:07I was born in 1965.

00:40:09So the year that Bremen died, apparently, you know, it's almost like, here we go.

00:40:17Now Pia Hugo and her experience continues this thing that got started, right, by all these

00:40:26men.

00:40:28So I feel like this is where the past and the present are now colliding, right?

00:40:35The 70s, 80s, and 90s.

00:40:38So you said that there were five men who pretty much started the shepherding movement.

00:40:46And I believe one of them was Derek Prince, right?

00:40:48So Derek Prince was somebody that was also very highly respected at PDI.

00:40:57In fact, Derek Prince spoke at a lot of the PDI conferences.

00:41:01And remember, I'm the assistant to the conference director.

00:41:05So it was part of my job to book flights, you know, from all these speakers from all over

00:41:14the world into Washington, D.C. for our national conferences.

00:41:21I had to book the limousine rides for these speakers and, you know, so that they could go

00:41:31to their hotels.

00:41:33I mean, there was so much money.

00:41:37And again, I am the assistant to the comptroller, so I also get to see the financial records.

00:41:43And I am literally, like, standing there at the PDI office, like, kind of, like, shaking

00:41:50my head, like, how did I ever get involved in such a mega corporation?

00:41:55Like, I had no idea it was that big, you know, because, you know, the offices themselves were

00:42:03not huge.

00:42:05You know, we, our headquarters was in Gaithersburg, Maryland.

00:42:09Who's ever heard of Gaithersburg?

00:42:10You know, we had a decent sized building, but numbers don't lie, John.

00:42:18Numbers don't lie.

00:42:19I mean, we literally had millions of dollars, and this was in the 80s, going into, you know,

00:42:29our income streams.

00:42:32And again, as a young 20-something, that did not raise a red flag for me.

00:42:40It had the opposite effect.

00:42:43I thought, wow, I am part of such an important movement.

00:42:52So, but anyway, I'm going to, I'm going to go back with you, back to those, the shepherding

00:42:59movement days, which then intersected with the take and give days.

00:43:06Okay, I'm going to bring up take and give.

00:43:08They called it tag.

00:43:09Most of your audience probably have never heard of it, but again, it's part of the folklore,

00:43:16right?

00:43:16This is, this is like one of those amazing moves of God that brought CJ Mahaney, Larry Tomczak,

00:43:27and Cheon together.

00:43:29These three men, I'm guessing, were either in their teen years and early 20s when they

00:43:40started the tag days.

00:43:43So take and give was a small little Bible study group meeting in someone's living room

00:43:55in Washington, D.C.

00:43:57And these three men opened the Bible because again, they're brand new believers themselves.

00:44:04You know, they got saved during the Jesus movement of the 70s.

00:44:07And so they decided, you know what?

00:44:10We don't need any of these older guys teaching us.

00:44:17Yeah, again, going back to your interview with Judith, I think she said, we didn't trust anybody

00:44:24over 30 years old.

00:44:25So these young men decided we're smart enough.

00:44:31We don't have any Bible degrees or anything like that.

00:44:34But you know what?

00:44:35We have the Holy Spirit and we are the anointed ones.

00:44:40So we're going to just open up this Bible and we're going to just teach straight from it.

00:44:45I mean, this is literally how they talk about the good old days of tag, where they would

00:44:52just sit in the living room and eat their popcorns and drink their Cokes and read the Bible.

00:45:02And guess what?

00:45:05It worked, right?

00:45:07This simple strategy worked.

00:45:09And I'm even going to say this.

00:45:12Remember how we were saying how original founders and original leaders of some of these corporations

00:45:20were actually good people who just wanted to provide a good service?

00:45:27I'm even willing to say that these three men whom I've kind of gotten to know, you know,

00:45:32Che, Lou, I mean, sorry, Che and Larry and CJ, they most probably had good intentions.

00:45:44They were excited.

00:45:46They were on fire.

00:45:49They loved the word because that's all they did back in the day was just read straight from

00:45:55the Bible and, and they would have these lively discussions and I'll even give them this Holy

00:46:05Spirit probably did show up in those meetings, you know, but like you said, with growth, like

00:46:13with more power comes greater responsibility and tag grew to 2000 young believers all under the age of 30.

00:46:25So now Che and Larry and CJ are like, whoa, scratching their heads.

00:46:32He's like, I think this is bigger than what we anticipated.

00:46:37So enter Derek Prince, enter shepherding movement.

00:46:42We got to put some structure.

00:46:44We got to have some rules.

00:46:46We got to, you know, so now these hippies are embracing these structures that have been around for a while,

00:46:56like you said.

00:46:59So, so now this is the intersection, right, of Brahmism and shepherding movement.

00:47:05And now we've got tag and now we have PDI because Derek said, you need an actual organization.

00:47:15You know, none of this take and give.

00:47:17What is that?

00:47:18Yeah.

00:47:19He doesn't even like the name tag.

00:47:20So they came up with PDI, People of Destiny, which personally, I don't like that name either.

00:47:29Like, what is that?

00:47:32But whatever, it worked back in the day.

00:47:34Nowadays, they call it Sovereign Grace Ministries.

00:47:37Okay, that's a little more churchy sounding name, right?

00:47:42But so PDI grew to, from that first church called Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland.

00:47:53The second church was Cheyance Church in California called Abundant Life Community Church.

00:48:00So both of these churches I was a part of.

00:48:02And then, but it grew and grew and grew so that by 1988, when I was now an employee of

00:48:09PDI, we had 40 churches all over America.

00:48:15So with more churches comes more tithes and offerings.

00:48:21I mean, like I said, it became this multi-million dollar industry very quickly.

00:48:27They had annual conferences, like you said, they had the People of Destiny magazines.

00:48:33They had speaking engagements all over the world.

00:48:37They just became very popular very quickly.

00:48:41They also wrote books.

00:48:43So where I want to end our time together, John, is, I hope we have enough time,

00:48:50is this one book that totally ruined my family's life for many years.

00:49:00And it's a book written by Larry Tomczak.

00:49:03And maybe you can, you know, put up a picture of the book.

00:49:07It's called God, Rod, and Your Child's Bod.

00:49:12Have you heard of that book?

00:49:14No.

00:49:14I mean, what a title, right?

00:49:16Um, yeah.

00:49:20So to this day, it brings, it brings up a lot of, um, painful memories for me.

00:49:30Um, but God's, God's Rod, God the Rod and Your Child's Bod, um, was kind of required reading for, for

00:49:42PDI, um, members.

00:49:45Um, I mean, all church, um, uh, affiliated ministries and all these churches under PDI, like we, we made it

00:49:55like second to the Bible because those of us who are parents within the organization,

00:50:02many of us were young.

00:50:04When I was young, I was 23 when I had my first child, um, we had no clue how to

00:50:09raise our kids.

00:50:11And we weren't going to ask our moms and dads because our moms and dads were over 30 years old,

00:50:17right?

00:50:17So they, they weren't, you know, they weren't part of this cutting edge, um, movement.

00:50:28So one of the things that Larry taught was that you really needed to use the rod and you had

00:50:35to be aggressive with it.

00:50:37He taught us that we needed wooden spoons and if one, one of the spoons broke because you're hitting your

00:50:47child so hard that it broke, um, you needed to have spare rods.

00:50:57And so those of, those of you in your audience who know my story, um, I was married to an

00:51:08abuser, right?

00:51:10I was married to a narcissistic abuser who did not know how to control his anger.

00:51:16And so you basically give him a rod to punish your, you know, to punish his child.

00:51:25You're giving him a weapon.

00:51:28You're giving him a weapon to exert his abusive, uh, behavior.

00:51:35So, um, my poor, poor daughter, I mean, I remember her as a two year old,

00:51:43just screaming in pain.

00:51:47I'm sorry, John.

00:51:49It's still just very painful for me to remember.

00:51:53Um, and she would be pleading with her dad to stop.

00:51:59And she'd say, I'm sorry.

00:52:03I won't do it again.

00:52:06And I wasn't even allowed to interfere.

00:52:10You know, John, to this day, my daughter, who's 37 years old, and she's now a mother and, um, a

00:52:18professional pre preschool teacher.

00:52:21She said, mom, you have no idea.

00:52:24You know, the harm that you and dad did when you were spanking me with those stupid wooden spoons.

00:52:33I mean, I, I know that you're probably going to have people in your audience who are either, you know,

00:52:42they're either okay with spanking or they're not okay with spanking.

00:52:46This is not what this is about.

00:52:47I'm not just talking about spanking.

00:52:49I mean, I know the Bible, right?

00:52:51I know, you know, like, spare the rod and, you know, um, spoil the child.

00:52:57Um, but I'm talking about an abuser.

00:53:03An abuser with an anger issue.

00:53:06And when you have a church leader telling that man that it's okay to, to use an instrument to hurt

00:53:16your child's body.

00:53:18I mean, that is criminal.

00:53:20I mean, it really is in many states, right?

00:53:23It's illegal.

00:53:24Corporal punishment is illegal for a reason.

00:53:27But within PDI and NAR, it's part of the culture.

00:53:34And it's one of the reasons why I eventually had to leave my husband because now he was using a

00:53:40belt.

00:53:41He was going to use a belt to punish my daughter and I had to get in between him and

00:53:47my daughter.

00:53:48And she was only four years old at that time.

00:53:51And that was it.

00:53:52That was, that was the, the straw that broke the camel's back.

00:53:56And I didn't look back anymore.

00:53:59So, I just wanted to share that, John, because, um, I've had some people ask me, why, why are you,

00:54:07why are you exposing, you know, these NAR leaders?

00:54:12Um, why are you talking to John Collins?

00:54:17And, um, you know, I mean, I think, you know, these are charismatic friends.

00:54:25And I told you once a charismatic, always a charismatic, you know, I still believe in the spiritual gifts, you

00:54:32know, but I also believe in the whole Bible.

00:54:38Like I don't cherry pick, I don't pick and choose my favorite, um, doctrines or theologies.

00:54:45Like we're all still learning God's word, but I'm here in your show because I want to reach the widest

00:54:59audience as possible, you know, NAR theology and false doctrines.

00:55:07They're not just harmful to our brains, you know, they're not just like, they don't just make for interesting debates.

00:55:20In my case, I almost lost my life because the, my NAR leaders gave my husband permission to physically abuse

00:55:31me.

00:55:32And they gave my ex-husband permission to abuse my daughter.

00:55:40So I hope, um, this has helped some of your, you know, some of the people watching today, um, John,

00:55:49and I'm just gonna end there.

00:55:51Well, I'm glad you went there because it gives me some information that I can use to tell the people

00:55:57that where we're headed is going to be explosive.

00:56:00So, as I've mentioned, the snowball going down the hill, it merged with the discipling movement, the shepherding movement.

00:56:06One of the pieces of the puzzle that most people do not know, as you mentioned, was tag.

00:56:12If you, if you pull a tag out of this puzzle, people cannot connect the dots.

00:56:16That's the interesting part of this.

00:56:18And tag is just one entity of dot connecting.

00:56:21Whenever I do my research, people say, it's so complicated, John.

00:56:24How do you follow this?

00:56:25It's like, you can't make a diagram.

00:56:27It's a splatter gun mess of things, right?

00:56:30Well, that's the history leading up to the 80s.

00:56:33Now, when you get to the 80s, from the 80s to the Gnar, it's an even bigger, more complicated mess.

00:56:38It's really, really difficult for people to understand.

00:56:41And a lot of it has to do with the Jesus movement.

00:56:44You had the Jesus movement.

00:56:45Picture it like, picture it like a million wild horses.

00:56:50You've got a million wild horses who are perfect horses for riding, but you've got to train those horses.

00:56:57How do you do it?

00:56:58Well, let's forcibly train them.

00:56:59Let's put so much weight on them that they can't run.

00:57:02That's what they did.

00:57:03They brought this concept that we need to discipline them.

00:57:08We need to bring them in together.

00:57:10We need to corral them.

00:57:11We need to give them so many overbearing rules that we break the horses.

00:57:17That's really what they were doing.

00:57:18They're breaking the horses of the Jesus movement.

00:57:20And they did it through entities like this.

00:57:23Well, what's interesting about it?

00:57:25The two things interesting about it.

00:57:26Number one is they use many of the same concepts that Branham was promoting.

00:57:33I'm not even going to talk about it because if you go there too much, YouTube will block it.

00:57:37But go to my website and just type in physical abuse and you'll see it's advocating for beating people until

00:57:44there are welts.

00:57:45That's how bad it is.

00:57:46And not just children.

00:57:47I'm talking about the wives as well.

00:57:50It's pretty bad stuff.

00:57:51That was what Branham was making popular.

00:57:54Well, that – fast forward into the shepherding movement.

00:57:57Now you've got that kind of thing existing in the shepherding movement.

00:58:00And it broke off into weird sects where adults were actually doing this to adults.

00:58:06They were spankings, adult spankings, kind of weird stuff.

00:58:10Well, this all comes back from the fact that they didn't really understand the Bible.

00:58:16They didn't understand the history.

00:58:18And you proved my point that I was going to build up to, which is kind of funny.

00:58:21Spare the rod and spoil the child is actually not a Bible verse.

00:58:26It's a verse from a poem, from a 17th century poem.

00:58:30Oh, wow. Look at that. I didn't even know that.

00:58:32But they teach this because it is loosely based on a couple of proverbs.

00:58:37And there are some passages that talk about discipline.

00:58:41But whenever you think about discipline, think of the ancient world.

00:58:45They stoned people back then, man.

00:58:47You don't want to stone people in this age.

00:58:50But that's what they were doing.

00:58:51They were trying to break the horses.

00:58:54Wow.

00:58:54And because they did this, they created the Gnar.

00:58:57So I'll end it with that.

00:58:58Thank you so much for doing this.

00:59:00Thank you, John.

00:59:01Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

00:59:05You can find us at william-branham.org and piahugoministries.com.

00:59:09For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion,

00:59:14From Christian Identity to the NAR.

00:59:17Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

00:59:47Weaponized Religion, Kindle, and Audible.

01:00:17Weaponized Religion, Kindle, and Audible.

01:00:21Weaponized Religion, Kindle, and Audible.

01:00:23Weaponized Religion, Kindle, and Audible.

01:00:24Weaponized Religion, Kindle, and Audible.

01:00:26Weaponized Religion, Kindle, and Audible.

01:00:27Weaponized Religion, Kindle, and Audible.

Out of Control: When Churches Become Corporations | Pia Hugo | Podcast Episode 659

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