- 2 months ago
John and Jed discuss the recent speech defending Mike Bickle and how it attempted to frame the public perception of her brother, Mike. They reflect on how her tone and phrasing followed recognizable manipulation strategies, and how those techniques were familiar to anyone who had grown up under strong religious authority. Jed explains why Lisa’s words were especially difficult for him to hear, given his own history, and outlines how attempts to minimize or excuse misconduct affect survivors. John adds his perspective on what it felt like to hear the language as if he were in the congregation and how the approach mirrored experiences from his past.
Together they examine the wider implications for the International House of Prayer community and beyond. They compare how prophetic authority and promises of revival can be used to cover wrongdoing, and how this dynamic has played out repeatedly. They also highlight how leaders in the broader movement have responded, often with silence, and the consequences this has for accountability. Throughout the discussion, both hosts emphasize how the rhetoric of forgiveness has been misapplied in ways that silence those raising concerns, and they call out the difference between genuine redemption and using faith to maintain power.______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
00:00 Introduction
01:04 Why This Episode Matters
02:27 The DARVO Pattern Revisited
05:03 Lisa Bickle’s Sermons and Strategic Framing
08:01 Using Victims’ Past to Justify Mike
10:17 John’s Multi-Layered Reaction
12:04 Manipulation in Cult Structures
14:02 Social Media as “Mocking God”
16:04 Early Allegations and Prophetic Grooming
18:04 Online Backlash and the Bickle Inner Circle
20:14 Lisa’s Anger and Targeting of Accusers
22:04 Turning Point: Tammy’s Testimony
25:50 Revival Narrative vs. Victim Testimony
28:24 Reckoning with Family Loyalty and Truth
30:06 Impact on the Hope City Community
33:15 Legacy of Prophetic Abuse
35:34 Outside Perspectives on Indoctrination
37:05 Spiritual Spectacle as Distraction
41:03 Mold in the House: A Prophetic Metaphor
44:54 Justifying Abuse in the Name of Destiny
47:05 The Prosperity Defense
48:14 The False Redemption Arc
51:19 Comparing Real Penance to Manipulated Forgiveness
54:04 No Repentance, No Restoration
56:05 Justice Rhetoric Without Justice
58:59 Closing Thoughts on Power and Silence
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Together they examine the wider implications for the International House of Prayer community and beyond. They compare how prophetic authority and promises of revival can be used to cover wrongdoing, and how this dynamic has played out repeatedly. They also highlight how leaders in the broader movement have responded, often with silence, and the consequences this has for accountability. Throughout the discussion, both hosts emphasize how the rhetoric of forgiveness has been misapplied in ways that silence those raising concerns, and they call out the difference between genuine redemption and using faith to maintain power.______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
00:00 Introduction
01:04 Why This Episode Matters
02:27 The DARVO Pattern Revisited
05:03 Lisa Bickle’s Sermons and Strategic Framing
08:01 Using Victims’ Past to Justify Mike
10:17 John’s Multi-Layered Reaction
12:04 Manipulation in Cult Structures
14:02 Social Media as “Mocking God”
16:04 Early Allegations and Prophetic Grooming
18:04 Online Backlash and the Bickle Inner Circle
20:14 Lisa’s Anger and Targeting of Accusers
22:04 Turning Point: Tammy’s Testimony
25:50 Revival Narrative vs. Victim Testimony
28:24 Reckoning with Family Loyalty and Truth
30:06 Impact on the Hope City Community
33:15 Legacy of Prophetic Abuse
35:34 Outside Perspectives on Indoctrination
37:05 Spiritual Spectacle as Distraction
41:03 Mold in the House: A Prophetic Metaphor
44:54 Justifying Abuse in the Name of Destiny
47:05 The Prosperity Defense
48:14 The False Redemption Arc
51:19 Comparing Real Penance to Manipulated Forgiveness
54:04 No Repentance, No Restoration
56:05 Justice Rhetoric Without Justice
58:59 Closing Thoughts on Power and Silence
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:01:00The subject matter, which is already, I think it comes out after the one Bob camp comes out maybe, but talking about this video where Mike Bickle's sister gets up and talk.
00:01:11I know that everybody on the Internet and their brothers and sisters have all talked about this.
00:01:15However, when I talked about it with Bob, we were talking from, I guess you would say, a parallel level.
00:01:22Bob being close friends with Mike Bickle, and he knew Lisa, all of this.
00:01:26But I also wanted to get the perspective of somebody who wasn't in that parallel universe but was somewhat a tiered down but not yet rank and file member, which, interestingly, that puts you in that category.
00:01:41So I thought maybe we'd talk about that, and I want to get a variety of perspectives.
00:01:48I have a lot of thoughts, and as I was talking to Bob, I was a little bit constrained because I was trying to place myself at his level and discuss as if it were, I don't know, one of William Branham's sons and their siblings or wives or whatever.
00:02:03But I want to talk now a level down because that conversation gets really interesting really quick.
00:02:11Yeah, 100%.
00:02:12I'm interested in listening to what you and Bob talked about about this, but I really wanted to talk with you about it, too, because I think that it is the fulfillment of a lot of things that we've been talking about.
00:02:30Mike Bickle has just been playing from the same playbook that we've been talking about since I first came on here.
00:02:40There's quite clearly a very specific playbook that he has played by, that my dad has played by.
00:02:46We've talked about the Darvo playbook of deny, attack, reverse victim, and offender playbook.
00:02:54And this is just the continuation of that.
00:02:59And so, I feel like this is just a good example of a lot of the premises that we have been talking about in the past of things, issues with loose doctrine, with thus saith the Lord prophecies, with the way that people can situate themselves as the cornerstone of ministries.
00:03:20So, that if you pull them apart, the whole thing falls apart.
00:03:23So, you know, I don't want to beat a dead horse either by talking about something that has already been talked about.
00:03:31But I think that this is just such a good salient example of what the playbook is and how it is run and how it's used to manipulate, to silence critics of all kinds, but specifically victims.
00:03:51And it was a big deal.
00:03:53Like, I appreciate that you're wanting to see it from my perspective too, because like, as someone who grew up in the church, listening to Mike preach, listening to more of Bickle's preach.
00:04:11So, I had heard Lisa preach before, I had heard some of the other Bickle family preach before, obviously it was primarily Mike, but, you know, that family was so important and was such a authority in the way that I grew up.
00:04:31And even into my 20s, there was this sense of reverence towards the perspectives that that family held.
00:04:44I mean, again, specifically with Mike, but there was this sort of Bickle legacy and it held this sort of reverence and importance.
00:04:55And so, I think to hear a Bickle-esque message come from Lisa was really kind of triggering.
00:05:05And I'll just start with there.
00:05:07Like, I know that you listened to it some, but just listening to her speak, which just to summarize, if people don't know what we're talking about at all,
00:05:17Mike's younger sister, which he has quite a few ways, a few siblings, but specifically, Lisa, I believe that she's the youngest of the group.
00:05:31She spoke at a sort of church.
00:05:35Hope City is, I don't know if you've talked with Bob about Hope City, but from my understanding, it's a addiction ministry to help poor and people who have been addicted to various forms of drugs.
00:05:52And that's the sort of like ministry and it's based in sort of downtown Kansas City.
00:05:58It's called Hope City because it's about people who have messed up lives that are finding their way back onto the straight and narrow and specifically through drug and alcohol addictions.
00:06:11So, that's the sort of ministry that her, Lisa, and her husband have run for many years.
00:06:18And she was speaking at their sort of Sunday gathering and she began talking about Mike.
00:06:27And the first, she's talked about it twice, but the first time she talked, it sounded like she very much was trying to pave the way for a Mike Bickle return for, hey, he's forgiven.
00:06:40These things are over.
00:06:41This is done.
00:06:44Thus saith the Lord, I am speaking and saying that Mike Bickle has been forgiven and all of these things are forgotten.
00:06:53And so, you guys, you're actually the bad guys now.
00:06:56Everyone who is still accusing him because the Lord has already forgave him.
00:07:02And then the second, we can, I'll get into it in more details, but just so people understand what we're talking about.
00:07:09She then gave another sort of Sunday message that talked all about forgiveness and about what was the, what was the word?
00:07:30It wasn't penalty.
00:07:31I'm forgetting what the word was, but she basically gave this whole message about how she was like, I'm not saying that he's going to, I wasn't saying that he's going to start ministry again.
00:07:44That's sort of between him and God.
00:07:46But she didn't give that sort of, she kind of walked that back a little bit, but she was like, he's essentially been forgiven.
00:07:54And then she showed a video of the previous, the person who, Deborah, who first came forward.
00:08:05She was sort of the first person who came forward as a victim of abuse, where she was recognizing how Mike Bickle had abused her in the past.
00:08:14She came and spoke forward and she was just the first of, she was this sort of, she's what kind of broke the dam that rushed forward.
00:08:23She wasn't the only individual, but she, she was very important in sort of speaking up.
00:08:30And then Tammy and my mother came forward and then many others have come forward since then.
00:08:36Um, but she was, she was kind of the first individual who spoke up against Mike, um, and, and his sexual abuse.
00:08:47And she was the first, um, victim who, who sort of came forward publicly.
00:08:53And so Lisa showed a video because Deborah had been involved in IHOP for several decades.
00:09:01And she found a video with her and Alan, Alan Hood, who was a, a very big figure in, in the international house of prayer, who has since come out and spoken out and led the charge against, um, um, Mike Bickle.
00:09:16Um, and was a very important individual who was sort of bringing accountability to Mike Bickle.
00:09:22Lisa shows this video of them talking about some, it didn't really matter, but it was just them talking about some message.
00:09:31And she basically used their own voices to sort of warp it into this, um, apologetic that supported sort of the forgiveness of Mike.
00:09:42And so use the voice of the accusers in the past, twisted it to like, be like, Oh, see, they even said it themselves that this is the nature of God.
00:09:55And therefore Mike is innocent and needs to be forgiven.
00:09:58And it was super manipulative, but, um, you know, I have thoughts of, of what it felt like to listen to that.
00:10:07But John, when you listen through it, what were your sort of thoughts?
00:10:13I don't know if I can explain the spaghetti that went through my head.
00:10:16As I told Bob, I, with Bob, I was looking at it from the perspective of somebody who's in the inner circle of the upper tier.
00:10:24When you're looking at it, that, at that perspective, number one, you feel really sorry for the person because you know, what's going, what they're going through.
00:10:32Number two, you understand the manipulation techniques that they're doing.
00:10:37I know exactly when I, when I could hear the key phrases, I knew exactly what manipulation techniques she was using and why.
00:10:45And, and interestingly, when you're in that upper tier and a cult, you think that's a good thing.
00:10:51You actually don't realize that manipulating the minds of people is a terrible, terrible thing to do.
00:10:57That's how you're trained.
00:10:58And interestingly, the training isn't such that we're going to do this awful thing and you have to ignore your inner feelings of how awful it is.
00:11:07It's more of learning the technique by watching others do it and watching others do it for the sake of godliness.
00:11:17So wrapped in this big ball of mess is somebody who thinks they're doing good, who is destroying the minds of the people.
00:11:25So with Bob, I talked at that level.
00:11:27When I listened to it, I, the spaghetti is going through my head, man.
00:11:31I was triggered from all angles because I was triggered from the top level, just like that.
00:11:37I have been in situations where people I knew were doing something similar for various reasons and I would be on their side, even though inwardly I realized that, yeah, it's probably not right what they're doing, but I get why they're doing it and it's for a good cause.
00:11:55We're all going to further the kingdom of god, whatever it was.
00:12:00But I've also been on the outer circle, the middle tier, I guess you would say in a cult.
00:12:07In a cult, you have the central figure, you have this pyramid where the very top or the inner circle, the, you know, the, not just rank and file, but the, the elite of the cult.
00:12:17There's usually this middle tier of people who are like enforcers and then your rank and file members.
00:12:22I also was triggered from the perspective of a rank and file member because I knew the, I knew the manipulation techniques, but they were, they were the same ones that were used in sermons that I've heard.
00:12:34I've sat through, so I'm listening to this and all the spaghetti mess that's going through my head.
00:12:40One of the things that I was thinking was, this sounds exactly like, and I could name off two or three pastors that I had heard growing up.
00:12:48But at the same time, the thought of a woman speaking in church and branimism was completely taboo.
00:12:55And so I'm thinking, I don't know about this.
00:12:58I don't know what to do about this.
00:12:59And I no longer, you know, I no longer believe that way.
00:13:02However, all that was going through my head.
00:13:04It was a triggering experience.
00:13:05But I knew from the get-go, I knew immediately from the tone that was being used, I put myself in the congregation when I listened to it.
00:13:18From the tone that was being used, I knew I was about to get reprimanded.
00:13:22That's the tone that came across.
00:13:24And I'm certain that everybody who's in the building knew that a reprimand was coming.
00:13:29That's exactly how it felt.
00:13:30And then there was a biblical analogy, I think she used David or some biblical figure, I think it was David, and goes into talking about some Bible experience.
00:13:42But in the tone, like, my reprimand is going to now be excised against me using some theme from the Bible.
00:13:51So I need to pay close attention to how should I be ashamed?
00:13:54That's the first thought that goes through your head.
00:13:56How should I be ashamed?
00:13:57And then, very, almost instantly, I did write this phrase down.
00:14:03She said, after she gets into the speech talking about the Bible figure, she says something to the effect that social media was mocking God.
00:14:15I think that's the phrase she used, mocking God.
00:14:18And I knew when I heard that she was going to be applying God to the central figure.
00:14:24So she's going to give a biblical example of somebody doing something good for God in the Bible, and then those around mocking God, and then going to use that in the reprimand against me, my church.
00:14:36And as I listened to it and continued, the sad part is, it suddenly hit me how many times that I had been through this and never really recognized it when I was in it.
00:14:47I had no control.
00:14:49Putting myself in IHOPKC's congregation, as an IHOPer, I have no control what the outside world is saying about Mike Bickle.
00:14:57It's completely beyond my control, but yet I'm going to take a verbal beating for it.
00:15:03And that's, to quickly summarize what all was in my head, that was the first thing that came through my head.
00:15:09So many of the things that you were saying are also things that were going through my head, too.
00:15:14Now, I didn't feel like, I didn't have to empathize with the group to feel like I was being reprimanded, because I literally was being reprimanded by her because she was talking about social media accusers.
00:15:33And like, in some respects, that was a lot of, especially early.
00:15:37So just to give a little, I think I've probably talked to you about this before, but to give a sort of detailed breakdown of how the first wave of momentum was built against Mike Bickle.
00:15:55So Deborah comes forward behind the scenes, she gets connected with some of the IHOP leaders, they're sort of the advocacy group that has formed, that comes to support her.
00:16:11They pull in my mom, because the testimony of Deborah, so specifically, Mike had been giving, I repeat this all the time on this.
00:16:23But it's not talked about enough publicly, I think, but Mike Bickle gave Deborah a prophetic word about how his wife, so Mike Bickle is married to Diane Bickle, and the prophecy was that one day Diane is going to die in an earthquake.
00:16:51So they prophesied the death of his own wife to Deborah in order to say, hey, give her a timeline of like, we can beat it, because he's grooming Deborah at the time, and he wants to give her an idea of hope of like, we will one day be able to be together, because one day my wife is going to be swallowed by the earth in an earthquake.
00:17:14And I know I talk about that, like, this is probably the 15th time that I have talked about that prophecy.
00:17:22But that was his line, he said that to that, and he said it to my mom, to my mom also, he attempted to groom my mom by doing that, he also said it to Tammy, and he has said it to others.
00:17:36And so this is sort of a thread that kind of proved all of these individuals testimonies, because they all sort of were giving the same account of things without talking with one another.
00:17:50And so this sort of validated, oh, he's really saying this, like, it'd be very wild for them all to make up this same exact, bizarre story.
00:17:59Okay. So that happens early. And at the very beginning, it's only that I was aware of, there was only two testimonies that it was the testimony of Deborah and the testimony of my mom.
00:18:11And there was this sort of backlash against, especially on social media, against anybody who was speaking up against Mike, there was this demonic sort of, there was all of these crazy things that were going on about demonizing the people who are speaking up demonizing Deborah, she was just named Jane Doe.
00:18:37But there wasn't a whole lot of names out there, because she was anonymous, my mom was anonymous, there weren't a whole lot of people who were speaking up with their names, the people who were, were Alan Hood, Samuel Hood, who's Alan's son, and some of the AG groups, or some of the ex-Ihoppers.
00:18:59But I was in that initial group of people who was speaking up, because I knew behind the scenes, like who Jane Doe was, and I knew my mom's testimony. So like, I was going to social media, repeating several times, it's so funny to even see my tweets, because now people know to take what I'm saying seriously, because they understand the context of that.
00:19:23But I would like tweet out Mike Bickle was grooming young women, and he was using prophecies about the death of his own wife to groom women. We know this for a fact. And the amount of like, hate that I was getting from the Bickle cohorts, like it was from sort of the Bickle mafia, there was a lot of people who were close to
00:19:53Bickle, like Luke Bickle moved in with my dad during so so Mike Bickle's son moved in with my dad during this time too. And it really felt very like, mafia mob esque of like, if you keep speaking up, we're going to come get you. And so okay, so bringing it back to when what Lisa was talking about.
00:20:13So Lisa has this tone of anger, and this sort of righteous indignation when she's talking, she's talking about the social media people. Well, that was me, like she was talking about me among among others. It's not like I was the only individual.
00:20:30But this is sort of like, how dare you just the scum of the earth, sort of like, you don't know, Mike, you don't know this world. Why are you talking about it? You're talking on social media, what a what a silly, ridiculous thing to do to think and it's like, well, I would have talked about it within the context of the church.
00:20:50However, everybody who tried to bring it up within the church was like excommunicated because Mike Bickle, you know, the Stuart Greaves and the Isaac Bennett's and the individuals who were underneath Mike during this time were all protecting Mike at all costs, like there was zero way to have accountability within the context of the church.
00:21:18And so what's the next step? It's like, okay, well, public accountability, plus, like, even if there's accountability within the church, because Mike was using prophecy, and it opened up the whole can of worms of, well, what about all of the prophetic narratives of IHOP? What about all of this? What, you know, there's the sexual abuse, but what about the prophetic abuse? What about the spiritual abuse? What about the false prophecy, the false doctrines that have affected so many individuals?
00:21:48And as someone who like literally grew up in that community was a son of that community, Mike Bickle was the only person who was at my birth, other than direct family, like it was my mom, my dad, my aunt, and Mike Bickle, that was who was there when I was born.
00:22:06And like, I was born into this world, given a prophetic name, as my identity, like this was, this was so part of my identity.
00:22:15And the only real method for me to be able to speak up about these things was via social media, and was the Roy's report, and was these sort of news outlets, because there just was total control of the community, so that no one could speak out.
00:22:37And it's so baffling to me because like, Lisa gave me listening to her, it reminded me of the of what was happening in those early times when like the early times as in just a few years ago, but when, when that sort of first wave came out where I was genuinely like, man, Mike Bickle is a sexual predator.
00:23:02No one's gonna know about this, no one's gonna know about this, because I thought they were gonna win.
00:23:07I thought that that the Bickle cohort was gonna successfully silence Deborah and my mom, I knew my mom didn't really want to speak about it that much.
00:23:18So my mom wasn't gonna fight for herself that much.
00:23:22I didn't know if Deborah, Deborah was still not using her name, which I totally understand why she wasn't and she was going by Jane Doe.
00:23:30And there was all these sort of tactics that were being used to silence them.
00:23:36And I thought, this is gonna be, you know, at best, it's gonna be the Bob Jones situation in 1991, where it's like, oh, something bad happened.
00:23:47Maybe for a couple years, people kind of talk about it in hushed tones, and then he's restored to ministry two years later, and everyone forgets about it, you know, and, and he is, his name is a part of the larger legacy of, of this movement.
00:24:05And there's zero account, actual accountability that happens, because of any of this.
00:24:13And it's, it's so fascinating, because like, from a public perspective, something switched when Tammy Woods came forward and shared her story.
00:24:24And she was like, I was 14, Mike Bickle was in his mid-twenties, he pursued me, he gave me those same prophecies, I was his babysitter.
00:24:38Throughout decades, I have like defended Mike Bickle, but now I'm even seeing how horrible it was.
00:24:44And Tammy's testimony, something tipped, and then everyone was like, even like the people who, like, Rick Joyner is a good example, Rick Joyner is the pastor at Morningstar, for people who don't know.
00:24:59He was that sort of same voice of like, when I was speaking up, and when the others were speaking up, he said it was a nothing burger, it happened 20 years ago, it didn't, he was super dismissive.
00:25:11And I took it very personally, because it felt very dismissive of my mother and her testimony.
00:25:19And having people like Rick Joyner and other ministry leaders who know my mom personally, and who like, knew my dad and had him come and perform at his church, like, to be like, what Terry is saying is just such a nothing burger is felt very like, personal.
00:25:37But then Tammy Woods comes, and it goes from a nothing burger to, okay, Mike messed up, you know, and that was this sort of, that's been for the last year and a half, or however long it's been since Tammy spoke up.
00:25:53The individuals, even like the Chris Vallottons, the Bill Johnson, I don't think Bill Johnson has spoken about it publicly, but all of these different individuals are like, yeah, okay, okay, so Mike messed up, Mike messed up, and it, it's, we know he did something.
00:26:08And to hear Lisa talking, it was like, it reminded me of that sort of first battle, where it was like, Mike may have messed up a little bit, but really, you know who the bad guys are?
00:26:24The bad guys are the victims.
00:26:26The bad guys are all of these individuals who are speaking up.
00:26:29It's Deborah, it's Terry, it's Jed, it's, it's these social media warriors who think that they're going to take down the prophetic movement and are inspired by the demonic, you know, and it just is, it's so personal.
00:26:44Like, she goes and she speaks up, one of the things that she said in the first, in her first sermon, she was like, these accusations, she was like, I haven't even heard the accusations, I haven't even looked in or read through them.
00:27:01I can't remember what she said, whether it was heard or, but she doesn't even know what the accusations are.
00:27:07And that was just so infuriating to be like, how do you not know?
00:27:13And like, I know she's knows my mom, like, and she knows Deborah, like, it's not, it's not, there's not this sort of separation of like, like, she literally grew up with my mom, because she's younger, and my mom was a little bit older than her.
00:27:29And like, she grew up in that community and, and my mom was close friends with one of the other Bickle sisters in high school.
00:27:41And to not even to be able to speak angrily, and with conviction about accusations that she hasn't even done the due diligence of like listening to not even given it the time of day to listen through it is so revolting.
00:28:04And it gives this, so I understand that you probably, and Bob maybe came from this empathetic perspective of where you're like, man, I know what it was like to be on the inside.
00:28:14And she's probably being manipulated by Mike, and she's being told to say these things.
00:28:19And she's just coming in the defense of her brother.
00:28:22And she's trying to like, reaffirm the sort of boundaries of the community that she is a part of.
00:28:29I understand all of that.
00:28:31Um, and I understand coming from an empathetic perspective, that is not my perspective.
00:28:36Um, because like, I have zero empathy for Lisa, because like, I had to speak up against my dad, like, you know, I, you don't get to claim ignorance, or claim sort of like fam, familial, um, allegiance, um, in situations of sexuality.
00:28:59You just don't, like, I don't get to do that with my dad, um, and she doesn't get to do that with her brother.
00:29:05Um, you are accountable for, um, coming to terms with reality, especially if you're going to speak up.
00:29:14Like, it would be different if she was like, you know, in her own home and not speaking from pulpit.
00:29:22But, but, but one thing that she's doing is that by speaking at a pulpit, not only is she like making, she's grafting in her hope community, um, the, the, like the, uh, hope church community.
00:29:39She's grafting them into the IHOP legacy.
00:29:42So she's making their identity now a part of the IHOP identity where they could have stayed separate.
00:29:51They could have been something where it was like, okay, well, the integrity and identity of this community can live on regardless of whatever happens with Mike Bickle.
00:30:00But now that's not the case.
00:30:02Like now she's making that church, like everyone within that community has to pick a side.
00:30:08And it's sort of like, you're either for us or against us.
00:30:12And so members of that community who are like, I was just here because I wanted to help individuals get clean.
00:30:18And, and, um, because I struggled with drug addiction myself in the past, I now have to assume the sort of like religious, um, perspective and, um, historical identity of, of Mike Bickle and the international house of prayer into sort of my own community and culture.
00:30:39And if clearly, by the way that, uh, Lisa was speaking, if I disagree, I'm going to be ousted from the community.
00:30:47Like if you're someone in there, who's like, man, like, say you're, um, uh, a woman who's experienced sexual abuse and you have also, you have also experienced drug addiction.
00:30:58Um, and you're in there and you're like, man, this, this, this ministry really helped me get clean.
00:31:06But we, the person on the pulpit is normalizing and contextualizing sexual abuse.
00:31:15And this is something that I have experienced in the past.
00:31:19You now have to decide, uh, I either have to leave the community that I found, um, support in, or I have to let go of a genuine.
00:31:36And real conviction against the like evils of sexual abuse that I personally have experienced.
00:31:42I, like, I say that as a hypothetical, there's just knowing, especially because people who deal with drug addiction are more vulnerable to sexual abuse.
00:31:54Like I know for a fact, there are members of that very community who have experienced that.
00:32:00And there's people who are dealing with that right now.
00:32:02So, um, yeah, I like, I'm not saying that you, you and Bob were like super empathetic or, you know, of her.
00:32:13And, and I'm not disagreeing with any of that from you, but I'm just saying like, it's so, I just, from my perspective, I just feel like it's so rotten what's going on.
00:32:24And it, and it, and it undoes a lot of the victory that happened after Tammy came forward.
00:32:31And this sort of like rhetorical, um, victory of people being like, no, you know what, we can kind of all agree what Mike Bickle did.
00:32:40He did do, and it is horrible and that there is still this very, um, fervent attempt to deny attack, reverse victim and offender and pretend like Mike, isn't the bad guy.
00:32:57And that Tammy and my mom and Deborah and me and, uh, and Alan and others are the actual villains of this situation, um, is, um, is just really corrupt.
00:33:13Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
00:33:26You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
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00:34:12So, I mentioned I listened to this from different levels and perspectives, and a lot of mess was going through my head.
00:34:20Well, I also listened to it from the perspective of an outsider, somebody who had no clue what's going on outside looking in.
00:34:28I did have some clue because I obviously know about Mike Bickle.
00:34:31But according to the situation, you know, I could easily put myself in that angle.
00:34:37And it kind of reminded me, I hate to use the example, I've used it already once before in another podcast that's coming out, but I'll go there later.
00:34:48But it kind of reminds me if, say, some car sales company, some used car sales company had a used car salesman that kept promising that this great big event was going to happen,
00:35:00and all of these cars would suddenly be sold, and we're marketing for it, and it never comes.
00:35:06It just never comes.
00:35:08And for some reason, the guy gets caught harassing some young lady and then, you know, gets kicked out of the car lot.
00:35:16But, well, the future salesmen aren't going to look back and say, well, we need to welcome this guy back with open arms because he's going to suddenly sell a bunch of cars.
00:35:25Right, right.
00:35:26And that's kind of what, I mean, I hate to say it, but that's what it felt like.
00:35:30Yeah.
00:35:30And, again, I hate to use the analogy, but if you put the name Jeffrey Epstein on that used car salesman, everybody would just be abhorred.
00:35:39Well, heck, no, he's not coming back.
00:35:41That's awful what this guy did.
00:35:43And he said, well, compare apples to apples.
00:35:46Yeah.
00:35:47It's pretty close to the same, maybe not to the same level, but it is close to the same.
00:35:53And so me outside looking in, I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, how can this person even say this?
00:35:58I don't care if it is the brother.
00:36:00I don't care if it's the sister of Jeffrey Epstein.
00:36:03Right, right, right.
00:36:04You just don't say something like that.
00:36:06And then take it a step further, you don't say it to people who have been hurt and who were potentially targets.
00:36:14Yeah.
00:36:14If all the other salesmen was a potential target for whoever was kicked out, you don't do this, man.
00:36:20So all of that's going through my head.
00:36:24At the same time, I'm thinking through the indoctrination.
00:36:28Well, she is so indoctrinated to believe that this coming revival event, her brother has tricked her into believing that this is happening.
00:36:36And Charles mentioned it recently, he said the irony of the Chiefs winning the Super Bowl after all of this happens.
00:36:44It's just, it's really unbelievable if you think about it because of the details of that prophecy.
00:36:49And me being a Chiefs fan, then Squirrel, I started thinking about the Chiefs and how they're going to win again this year.
00:36:56Yeah, yeah.
00:36:58I'm with you.
00:36:58I will second that prophecy.
00:37:01Yeah, so I've got all this going through my head.
00:37:03But just taking a step back and from the outside looking in, oh my gosh, I can't believe somebody did this.
00:37:10Yeah, I love everything that you're saying because it's still trying to use Mike Bickle's prophetic legacy to undo the legacy of abuse, right?
00:37:28And it doesn't work because those are intertwined.
00:37:34His legacy of, his prophetic legacy, which he all, like, first of all, he always constructed it to be this way from the very beginning because he has had, he's been abusing people since he was 20 years old.
00:37:50You know, he was, and he was using his sort of spiritual authority.
00:37:55Even when he was with my mom, this was before he got married to Diane.
00:38:03He was 20.
00:38:03My mom was 15.
00:38:05I've told this story before, but that was the first time that he started dating my mom or pursuing my mom.
00:38:13And he was a, he was a spiritual, he was the youth pastor that, for the church that she was part of.
00:38:22And so, like, even at the very beginning, there was this sort of, like, immediate spiritual authority when he was a young man.
00:38:31I'm a very young man.
00:38:32In his 20s, he, like, recognized and used this sort of authority for sexual purposes.
00:38:42Now, it's a little bit grayer area because, you know, 2015, there's a very huge, you know, there's a big gap there.
00:38:51Is it as extreme as when, you know, Tammy was 14, he was in his late 20s and had two kids and was married?
00:39:00Like, no, it's not, it's not as extreme as that, but you can see the sort of, like, pattern that was being built.
00:39:06And then, of course, later he, after he had gotten married, he tried to pursue my mom again and tried to do the same thing.
00:39:15So, there's an interesting tactic, a very, it shouldn't work.
00:39:25Like, I hate that it works on some people, but Lisa did this where she was like, this is something that happened decades ago.
00:39:35That shouldn't be something that lessens the issue with Mike.
00:39:41And if anything, that should make it more serious.
00:39:46I think that she's kind of saying, like, this happened decades ago, he messed up, you know, when he was 21, but now he's not that man.
00:39:56And maybe that would be a legitimate thing to say if he had, like, repented when he was 23 and then changed his behaviors.
00:40:05But he started that behavior when he was 20 and he has not stopped that behavior.
00:40:11Like, there are other victims each decade and, like, the most vocal and public victims are victims that happened in the 80s.
00:40:18But there has been victims in the 90s, 2000s, 2010s, maybe even 2020s, like, maybe even as recently within the last few years.
00:40:32But I know, I know for a fact, every decade since the 80s, there's been something that he's been doing.
00:40:39But the idea that he has been doing it forever shapes the way that you should think about his prophecy.
00:40:48Because what was one of the first prophetic words that he was giving?
00:40:53It wasn't about IHOP.
00:40:56Before he was giving prophecies about songbirds and IHOP and the 24-hour house of prayer, he was giving prophecies about earthquakes and about his wife being swallowed by the earth so that he could marry other women.
00:41:08Like, so, prophecy to him is and always has been about his own agenda and his own sexual desires.
00:41:24And that has continued throughout his entire life.
00:41:28So, the idea that he would be excavated by saying, like, your analogy of this, like, the Toyota-thon that's coming, you know, whatever big event that's happening, that he's always been talking about and that has never happened.
00:41:46The idea that the promise of that would make people dismiss and ignore the abuse that he had done was always the plan.
00:41:59I gave an analogy a while ago on, I believe on here, but I'll give it again quickly.
00:42:06Imagine that you have a house and in your small house and in the kitchen, you find that there's black mold in the cabinets and you're like, oh, my goodness, this mold has absolutely taken over the cabinets.
00:42:22And then you're trying to, like, invite people over to your house.
00:42:26You host people over at your house all the time.
00:42:29But, like, if they come in and they open up the cabinets, they're going to see the black mold.
00:42:34Well, so, what do you do?
00:42:36Well, if you don't, you know, you paint over the black mold, you try to pretend it's not there.
00:42:41And maybe you build an extension to the house.
00:42:44You build another kitchen so that people can come into that one.
00:42:48And it's sort of like, oh, okay, well, I'm just not going to address what's going on over there because I just build it bigger over here.
00:42:54Well, then after years, the mold spreads and it goes from this place into the other room.
00:43:00Well, now you have it in two different rooms.
00:43:02Okay, well, I'm going to just build another extension and then another extension.
00:43:06And I'll just build the house bigger and bigger and bigger.
00:43:09And by the time that I've, you know, reached my 70s, like Mike has, my house is an absolute mansion.
00:43:17And I am bringing people in and I'm showing them and everybody looks and they're like, oh, my goodness, this person.
00:43:22Look at the size of that house.
00:43:24Well, the reason I built the house bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger was to hide the ever spreading mold that was corrupting and taking all of the house with it.
00:43:35So instead of bulldozing and re, you know, tearing out all the cabinets and addressing the issue, you just build bigger and bigger so that to distract people from what's going on.
00:43:50And I absolutely think, like even just talking psychology wise, I think the reason Mike Bickle was so enticed by prophetic spectacle, the reason why he gravitated to end times rhetoric,
00:44:12why he didn't become a Methodist pastor who just like was like, oh, I'm going to preach and, you know, wasn't just that he liked speaking up front and having people adore him and all that sort of stuff.
00:44:26I mean, I think that there is the sort of narcissistic, like I enjoy people listening and hanging on everywhere.
00:44:32I also think he knew from the very beginning he had mold in his cabinets.
00:44:38He had pedophilic, you know, desires where he, I mean, he wasn't pedophile, he wanted to, he liked that he was attracted to having the dominating sort of leverage of being with a young, vulnerable, fragile woman.
00:44:59And he was not satiated with marriage, you know, he was not, he was not, he needed, he had this like deeper longing for intimacy, intimacy with teenage girls.
00:45:14Um, that was a compelling aspect of his character.
00:45:20And I think even for his own psychology, he needed the larger prophecy to excuse his own, like I knew it was wrong.
00:45:33He absolutely knew it was wrong and horrible.
00:45:36So, he needed this like, hmm, it's okay, because God has called me to these big, grander things.
00:45:45And even though I have this terrible, horrible thing where I'm taking a 14-year-old out on dates while my wife is taking care of my two kids, it's okay because you know what?
00:45:57God wants this of me.
00:45:59God wants me to be great.
00:46:01And this is, I'm just like, Paul, this is my thorn, the thorn in my side.
00:46:06Like, this is, this is just the small little thing that I have that is inconvenient.
00:46:12But it's okay because my house is so big.
00:46:16My, my, my prophecies are so grand.
00:46:19And, and the world is going to end and the God is going to split the sky.
00:46:24And there is going to be rivers of blood that raise to the level of a horse's bridle.
00:46:30And so, like, who cares whether or not I have, I'm a pedophile.
00:46:35Like, who, who cares about these things?
00:46:38And to see Lisa repeating that same, like, it's just the same playbook.
00:46:46It's like, how big and how grand is his house?
00:46:48One of the things that she said, um, in her first sermon, she was like, do you know how many people Mike has spoken to throughout the years and how many he's ministered?
00:47:01And, and the, the intention, the, the, it wasn't just like people, it was like important people.
00:47:08Um, so she was like, do you know how important he's been this sort of like, you couldn't be this influential.
00:47:16And I think your, your comparison to Jeffrey Epstein rings true in this sort of thing too, of like, can you imagine Epstein's sister being like, do you know how many important people he's been around?
00:47:31And it's like, that's, that isn't doing the work you think it's doing, but it's this idea of like, look how grand my house is, look how big and prominent I couldn't be this successful.
00:47:43It goes into sort of the prosperity gospel stuff too, of like, I have been so successful, so wealthy, so prominent, I must be blessed by God.
00:47:54And if God blesses me, I can't really be doing any wrong.
00:47:58And the wrong that I am doing can't really be that important because, you know, it all pales in comparison to what God is doing with me.
00:48:10Um, and that's the, that, that was the whole tone of her second message.
00:48:15It was this idea of like, God forgives and God has a bigger and better plan, which is so corrupt because like, that is something that is like a really core part of Christianity.
00:48:32Um, and like, like the people that she's speaking to, she had someone come up on in the second one.
00:48:41Um, and he was wearing a shirt that said, um, oh shoot, I can't remember what it was like, but like, God, you wouldn't believe what God has forgiven me of, or I can't remember what his shirt said.
00:48:55I could look it up and, um, say it for sure, but it was this idea of like, if I was held to the sins of my past, I would be so in trouble.
00:49:04And it's a ministry again, Hope City is a ministry built around helping individuals who have been addicted to drugs and alcohol.
00:49:15So a lot of individuals who have destroyed their life.
00:49:19And as someone who is on, um, you know, addicted to, to drugs, you like often probably character behavior.
00:49:29It's not just like you destroyed your life.
00:49:31You also can, like, if you have ever known anyone who's struggled with addiction, like they can do really terrible things, but that later you're like, oh my goodness, this was just so not of this person's character.
00:49:43And that group of individuals needs to be able to resonate with this message of like, God forgives and redeems and like, they need to believe that God is, um, a good, forgiving, redemptive God.
00:50:02Um, and I think in a way that's very like genuine and real.
00:50:06I used to, um, go, I was a part of a prison ministry and I would speak to people who were in prison and, um, witness to them.
00:50:17And like, genuinely, I have, like, I've had a complicated history with Christianity where I've, I've wondered what is good and what is bad about Christianity and done like all sorts of deconstruction.
00:50:30But one thing that I've never, ever questioned is that Christianity, the belief in God and the belief in Jesus and the belief in like this Christian narrative has genuinely redeemed many lives.
00:50:42And like, I, I, I've never questioned whether or not Christianity was good for many of these people who were in prison because they had to deal with the idea of like, when I was 20, I like was robbing and doing all of these behaviors that were, you know, maybe even murder.
00:51:00Like, uh, you know, uh, I took the life of someone and I think that in prison, there's this sort of, I'm paying my time, like what I did was wrong.
00:51:12There isn't this sort of, there, they, they, at least the ones that I interacted with, they weren't using that rhetoric of God has forgiven my past to excuse and diminish the sins or atrocities.
00:51:30That they had committed when they were younger, they held that, you know, it was this sort of paradox of being like, oh my goodness, I really did hold, hold this fact that like, I really harmed people and I will live that for the rest of my life.
00:51:43Yet, I can look forward and think about the things that I'm going to do positively, like, I can bring about change, I can help people and it's the sort of redemptive arc of like, even though I was a villain, I have repented, I've done, I am in prison and I'm, I'm serving my time and I'm spent 10, 15, 20 years in prison to pay for the, you know, evil deeds that I've done.
00:52:11There's this sort of positive and redemptive progression of penance.
00:52:21And Mike is just trying to piggyback on this and I think it's so corrupt how it's being used and how Lisa was using it and attaching it to the sort of narrative structure that is used in this redemptive healing ministry of like, being healed of drugs and addiction and stuff like that.
00:52:48By, by, by, you know, earmarking Mike into this sort of narrative, I think it's so corrupt because it's like, he hasn't done anything to repent for it.
00:52:59He genuinely is so unrepentant of, of the things that he has done.
00:53:04Never once has Mike Bickle ever genuinely repented to my mother for the things that he did.
00:53:11Never once has he repented to Deborah or to Tammy.
00:53:16Never once has he owned up to it.
00:53:19Like the descent, like the only things that he's kind of like waffled of like, well, I did do some things that were not good.
00:53:27Um, but like, it really is no big deal.
00:53:33You know, it's this sense of just like zero sense of accountability and yet we're trying to then talk about redemption when there is no, there's no repentance.
00:53:42And even from a biblical perspective, um, there's no, there's no precedent for that.
00:53:50Like there's no forgiveness without like repent or, or sort of, um, uh, restoration without repentance is ridiculous.
00:54:02And like that you got to make, right.
00:54:04You gotta, you gotta be accountable for the things that you've done.
00:54:08And it's not just the sexual abuse, it's all the prophetic abuse.
00:54:12And it's all of these different things.
00:54:13Has he actually ever spoken saliently with his wife about the fact that he spoke about her death?
00:54:22Now, I, obviously that's private between them too.
00:54:25Like I, I might never know about that.
00:54:28Um, but I would venture a guess that he has not ever like taken accountability of that to his very own wife.
00:54:36And he certainly hasn't talked with his family about that because Lisa doesn't even know what happens.
00:54:42Like she doesn't even know what the accusations are.
00:54:46And if he had done any sense of repentance, she would know everything because he would have said, Hey, this is what I said about my own wife.
00:54:54This is how I manipulated Terry.
00:54:56This is how I manipulated Deborah.
00:54:58This is how I sexually exploited these women.
00:55:00And this is what I did.
00:55:02And this is how I baked it into the, all the prophetic history and identity of, um, Christianity and, or of IHOP in order that I would never really be able to like be forced to be accountable for these things.
00:55:19Um, but clearly he has never done these things.
00:55:21Um, and the fact that you have all of these leaders and these, not just Lisa, but like, um, rejoiner, um, uh, Lou Ingle, all of these justice people.
00:55:37So these, this is the last thing I'll say, I've been going on so many tangents, but this is the last thought that I really wanted to get out today.
00:55:44Um, like Lisa is such a good example where she is so angry.
00:55:49She, she, she, she preaches angry.
00:55:52All the Biggles preaching angry, regardless of whatever they're talking about.
00:55:57It's this very like intense, uh, message that they always bring.
00:56:03And Lou Ingle is, is very similar to this.
00:56:08Um, and these are this prototype of the people who I would, when, when I was younger and in this world, we would have called these individuals, individuals with a justice chip.
00:56:20That's what like, oh, they just care so much about justice.
00:56:23And that sort of validated their righteous indignation.
00:56:27And the reason, because otherwise, if they didn't have the justice chip, you're like, man, these guys are kind of asses.
00:56:32Like they're so intense and so demanding.
00:56:36And so like, you know, scary, but like, it's righteous because God is calling them to do it.
00:56:43And I think Lou is such a good example of this.
00:56:47Like he, he literally is so, and he talks about all of the evil in America that usually has to do with abortion, homosexuality, and, and, um, sexual abuse.
00:56:57Or, or, or sexual, not sexual abuse, but like sexual, um, sex trafficking.
00:57:02And this is this sort of like, oh my God, God is, God is going to cleanse the world of everything that is going wrong in America.
00:57:11We are going to take back America and revival is going to happen.
00:57:15And we're going to repent of all the sins that, uh, America is doing.
00:57:20And, and I always like saw him as this person who just like held such an intense chip of justice.
00:57:28Where the hell has he been?
00:57:31He, he literally, he, one of his main partners throughout all of history, it was excused or it was, uh, sorry, was exposed as a sexual abuser.
00:57:43This man who's has this justice trip, who's intense, who brings such a righteous indignation into everything he does.
00:57:53Literally one of the closest family friends and individual, like the closest ministry partner that he has ever had was exposed for using prophecy to sexually abuse teenage girls.
00:58:08And he has not said a word about it.
00:58:12How can these individuals be justice chip if they don't care about the justice that's going on in their own world?
00:58:19This is the same.
00:58:20Sean Foy is like a great example of this too.
00:58:23I, it's so disingenuous when people are angry about all the problems of the world, except for the problems that are happening right in their own community.
00:58:33Because guess what?
00:58:34Those are the ones that they actually can change.
00:58:36Lou Engel is not going to shape the, the future of American politics.
00:58:42He just isn't like, he's not as important as he pretends to be what he could have done.
00:58:48And what he always could have done is that he could have changed whether or not IHOP was an abusive community.
00:58:57Like he could have changed the actual impact of whether or not Mike Bickle was sexually abusing different individuals.
00:59:03And when people are like, oh, he couldn't have known, he absolutely could have known.
00:59:08Like he absolutely could have figured this out and seen because there were so many red flags that were going on.
00:59:14But even if it was like, like Alan Hood and others, like, even if he was only, it took him until like late to see it.
00:59:24Now he could make it like when I was talking about earlier about when my mom and people were talking, when it sort of first blew up, Lou Engel could have gotten in there and been like, hey, I did the investigation.
00:59:40And this is wrong and he could have used his justice chip to speak against the actual abuse that's going on that he actually could have affected.
00:59:51And he didn't.
00:59:53And it makes you ask this question like, okay, the Lisa's of the world, the Lou Engel's of the world, the Sean Foyt's of the world, do they care about justice or do they care about power?
01:00:03And it quite clearly is the latter because they're not fighting for justice in their community.
01:00:10They just want to use that righteous indignation to maintain a position of power.
01:00:18To quote a minister who should have instead been a comedian, you have to have a repentance burger and an apology burger before it becomes a nothing burger.
01:00:28Yeah, yeah.
01:00:29Well, thank you so much for doing this.
01:00:31I was interested to get your perspective and I'm sure the audience will be too.
01:00:34Yeah, well, I appreciate you letting me just get on my soapbox and get angry for an hour here.
01:00:45No problem.
01:00:45It was fun.
01:00:47Yeah.
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