Speciale Ustica: Una breccia nel muro |Parte 2| 2024 [HQ]

DivinumCrime

Dal Museo della Memoria di Bologna, Massimo Giletti conduce lo speciale sulla strage di Ustica, per far luce su quanto accaduto il 27 giugno 1980 a bordo dell'aereo DC 9 Itavia  #Ustica #Giletti #Crime #TrueCrime #Delitti #Misteri #Killer #SerialKiller #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Mistero #Delitto #Documentari #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DivinumCrime

Transcript

00:00:01So, this evening we heard an Air Force marshal from the Marsala base say

00:00:08we saw planes in flight, we heard the admiral who commanded the Saratoga say

00:00:13that evening there were so many planes in the sky, then he goes to court, he forgets, I don't have

00:00:21That said, I got confused with the day, I realize that we can all change

00:00:26idea, but this interview is sensational and it's also normal that it is like this, because not

00:00:32I will never believe that an American aircraft carrier does not have a working radar, I can't believe it.

00:00:38count no one, but now we are about to live a very delicate moment, because as I had

00:00:44as mentioned before, this evening Marshal Dioguardi has to talk to us about something he experienced

00:00:52in first person, we saw, that night he was in that room, by chance he arrives at that

00:00:57disposition, of course he always takes responsibility for what he says, but he has it

00:01:02I also told the magistrates very clearly, then you make a career, after that

00:01:10I think he was even sent to Rome that night, so after that night, after about a short time

00:01:17after two days they change my job, from the personnel management I go to work at

00:01:22regional general staff, after less than a year they transferred me to the private secretariat

00:01:28of the Minister of Defence, namely the Honourable Lello Ragorio, clearly with the authorisation of

00:01:35top-level secrecy, the CTSA.

00:01:39So what does it mean?

00:01:40That she couldn't say anything, she couldn't speak, she couldn't reveal what she was doing,

00:01:44whatever it touched. Compromising a classified document carries up to twenty years.

00:01:50from prison in peacetime and to execution in wartime.

00:01:56Let's talk about that document.

00:02:021986, Spadolini, Minister of Defense, I was still in his private secretariat,

00:02:10and one day the secretary calls me and tells me I have to take a document home

00:02:19of the minister who was not in office but was in Florence at Pian dei Giullari.

00:02:25I say okay, no problem, I'll go.

00:02:27What was so strange? The first thing I heard was the secretary's control officer calling me.

00:02:34special from the minister's office, and General Tricarico knows well what I am referring to,

00:02:40and he tells me, well, it's a very high-class document for which you will be armed and escorted

00:02:48from the Carabinieri. They handed me a weapon, they handed me this envelope, as a courier

00:02:54special enabled, I'm going to Termini, I thought I had to take the normal train, instead

00:03:02I take a first class express, while the petty officers were entitled to second class,

00:03:06and in that compartment there was the entire reserved compartment and I and the two policemen were travelling

00:03:14of the escort. We arrive in Florence and Santa Maria Lovella, the two Carabinieri of the escort

00:03:19They hand me over to two Carabinieri patrols, we first go to the barracks to stamp the paper

00:03:26of the trip, then immediately to the minister's house in Pian dei Giullari. He receives me.

00:03:32housekeeper, then she goes down to the library, I wait for her in the library and Spadolini is waiting for me

00:03:38in the library. I'll say it for a second, did you have to deliver this super-secret document?

00:03:46Absolutely. Obviously he didn't know the content because it was... I couldn't know it in quality.

00:03:51of courier. We'll stop for a few moments of advertising and then we'll find out why this

00:03:57This document is so important and I believe it reopens many questions in this affair, after the publicity.

00:04:14I had interrupted the man you see in the frame next to me, Marshal Dioguardi, who

00:04:23he has always been in contact with extremely delicate and confidential documents throughout his life,

00:04:32the so-called classified documents. Today he is here to tell something he has never

00:04:39said, if not to the magistrates. Exactly.

00:04:42He told the magistrates. He's talking about a highly confidential document. It had been entrusted to him and he had to...

00:04:50be handed over to Minister Spadolini. To get to Spadolini's house even

00:04:57he was telling us, before the commercial, that he was accompanied by the police and was

00:05:02armed, precisely because it was a top-secret document. You're coming from Spadolini, who opens it for you?

00:05:10The housekeeper. She'll show you in, I imagine.

00:05:13He makes her sit in the library, after a few minutes Spadolini comes down with his dressing gown

00:05:19red, which he was used to having at home. I told him that I had to deliver this to him

00:05:25document, which he should have signed, he should have closed it in an envelope and I

00:05:31I had to bring it back to Rome because the courier of the Presidency of the Council of Ministers

00:05:38At the time, he was waiting for this signature on this document. He reads the document, gets angry,

00:05:47he bangs his fist on the table, then makes a phone call, to be fair I leave the

00:05:57room, I stand at the door, I hear him making a rather complicated phone call and

00:06:10He closes it, finishes it and says no, I won't sign it for you. He closes it, calls me back and tells me another one

00:06:19Emblematic phrase. Joseph, look, read, read. I, no, Your Excellency, I cannot read,

00:06:26I'm a courier. No, no, no, I trust you, read. And it forces me, in quotation marks,

00:06:32to read this part of the report. What was in this report? This report

00:06:40was, then, he should have signed the letter of transmission as Minister of

00:06:44Defense, addressed to the President of the Council of Ministers, to the Undersecretary of State,

00:06:49to the President of the Council of Ministers, where a SISMI report was linked.

00:06:56It was the Military Intelligence. It was the Military Intelligence, where it was stated that two Mirages

00:07:07and an American Tomcat had intervened in this incident. In the 19 Italia incident?

00:07:19In the 19 Italy affair. And why did they intervene, if it's written in this document?

00:07:24They were interested in the Libyan MIG. I obviously didn't read it all, I read the fragments that he

00:07:35He pointed at me and then said this blessed phrase. Giuseppe, remember, there's nothing more

00:07:42Disgusting generals who want to be politicians. He closes the envelope, signs it, and hands it to me,

00:07:50I'm returning to Rome and the first thing I do is notify the control officer of the

00:07:57special secretariat that the document, having read it in part, had been compromised.

00:08:04That is, I did not have the authorization to be able to read that document, because he must know that

00:08:09A classified document can only be read by those who have a need to know. I didn't have

00:08:15need to know, I was just a courier. So I communicate the compromise of a

00:08:20classified document to the control officer of the special secretariat of the cabinet of the

00:08:26minister, who replies to me, well, God forbid, we know what the minister is like, not

00:08:31Don't worry, we trust you blindly. Close, protocol, record in the register.

00:08:39control and loading sheet, and General Tricarico knows well what I'm talking about, and delivers that

00:08:45document sent to the courier by the Presidency of the Council of Ministers.

00:08:50So this evening we are listening for the first time to this story which was given by

00:08:56Marshal God protect the magistrates in a very complex interrogation I imagine.

00:09:02An 11-hour interrogation with Dr. Maria Monteleone. Part of this interrogation

00:09:08it was classified and I never said the things that were classified either in the

00:09:14I'm not even telling you about interviews now. So there's more?

00:09:20The investigation has been completed, the case has not yet been closed, so if he were to reveal it

00:09:28things that have been classified, I personally risk.

00:09:33Yes, but you, excuse me, when you say two French mirages, with faces and an American Tonkatsu.

00:09:42Yes, I read that with my own eyes about those relationships.

00:09:44She also tells me a Libyan MIG.

00:09:48That's right, he was talking about chasing the Libyan MIG, exact words.

00:09:54So the theory according to which the Ustica tragedy was generated by a chase,

00:10:03an attempt to shoot down the MIG, it would be according to what you are telling us this

00:10:08It will be confirmed by this confidential document. Who knows about this document today?

00:10:14Well, that document has been around for many years so I don't know what happened to it, but I'll add this.

00:10:24Well, a document of this kind of gravity.

00:10:26It is an important document without a doubt, but the classified documents are of high classification

00:10:32They can be destroyed only and exclusively if the originating institution gives authorization.

00:10:42Therefore, since then in 2007 there was a change from Sismi to another body which

00:10:51It took over the functions of the SISMI, and there was also a digital modification from the point of view of...

00:10:57Yes, let's get back to the point. Can the Prime Minister open that drawer today or not?

00:11:04You could do a thorough research with paper material experts of classified documentation,

00:11:12i.e. classified protocol register, control register and load sheet.

00:11:18But excuse me, have the prior's men ever looked for this document?

00:11:22They tried...

00:11:23Does she know?

00:11:23I know this perfectly well because in the later part of my career I unfortunately had to deal with

00:11:29with the prior's men, because I was the special secretary of the third air region of Bari.

00:11:34So?

00:11:35I was handling classified documents.

00:11:37Have they ever come to you?

00:11:39Absolutely yes, but they did not have permission to enter,

00:11:42like if they come to search her house and she says she's not going into the bathroom.

00:11:46Why? Because authorization from the National Security Authority is required.

00:11:50which is the responsibility of the President of the Council of Ministers.

00:11:52So they came close to the finish line, the objective, but they couldn't quite get it?

00:11:57Already told to the magistrate Maria Monteleone, 5 centimetres, 5 real centimetres from the document,

00:12:04but they couldn't take it.

00:12:05Daria Bonfietti, what we are discovering this evening is heavy.

00:12:11It's serious, it's serious, it's heavy and it's very important, I believe.

00:12:17I hope that the magistrates who still have in their hands, as you know,

00:12:21and this investigation is open to find the material authors of the event,

00:12:26take it into account, have taken it into account, and move forward in this direction.

00:12:31But I also want to reiterate something else that is already equally clear.

00:12:36and it seems to me that we all underestimate it.

00:12:38There was a former Prime Minister that night and then President of the Republic

00:12:45for 7 years, 85, 92, who was called Francesco Cossiga, who in 2008 made possible

00:12:54the reopening of the investigations.

00:12:56I'm stopping her because she said what she said, but it seems like you don't want to say it.

00:13:02Cossiga has already claimed all these things.

00:13:04I make you feel like a president in office.

00:13:06Here, indeed.

00:13:07I make you feel like a president in office.

00:13:10Exact.

00:13:10Mattarella.

00:13:11In charge I don't know.

00:13:12Mattarella, who was then minister for relations with Parliament, said this.

00:13:21On June 27, in a Council of Ministers, he says, the 19th of the Aditavia sank

00:13:28with 81 people on board.

00:13:31It's still pitch black, says Mattarella.

00:13:3520 days later a Libyan MIG 23 was discovered over the Sila mountains.

00:13:40Everyone be quiet, says Mattarella.

00:13:42Is something like this even possible?

00:13:45The truth, says the President of our Republic today, is that in that area the game is played

00:13:53too much to war, as civilian pilots have repeatedly denounced.

00:13:58Mattarella said this.

00:14:01Today our President of the Republic.

00:14:05Would you like to add something, perhaps say something to General Tricarico?

00:14:08Absolutely yes.

00:14:10General, I respect you because you were one of the greatest generals that the Force

00:14:15Armata has had, and I tell him this with all my heart, for the tasks he has carried out, etc.

00:14:21But I remind you of two things.

00:14:23Our military oath is, I swear by the Republic, by the Constitution,

00:14:32and I swear by the laws to be observed.

00:14:36I did it until I was in the military, and when my nothingness expired

00:14:42obstacle of secrecy, I thought it best that as a citizen I continue to honor what is

00:14:49my grandfather, a career soldier, was the same as my father, a career soldier,

00:14:53what I was, and I truly invite anyone to do as I did.

00:14:59As many officers and petty officers who know about this story are willing to do.

00:15:05so much.

00:15:06And that is to honor that oath that we made many years ago, both she and I, in roles

00:15:11different.

00:15:15I'll add one thing, very quickly, sorry Massimo.

00:15:18I'm sorry you don't remember something specific.

00:15:25And for extreme reasons of convenience, I remind you of the sentences, then you will tell me that the document

00:15:31is, extreme reasons of convenience oblige us to communicate to all staff of any

00:15:39degree that the Ustica affair should no longer be discussed and especially where there is a need

00:15:48of having to write a document, a classified message with the word ustica, comes the

00:15:55same replaced by known event.

00:15:59I only remind you of this.

00:16:01Then you know well what I'm referring to.

00:16:04And I repeat, I respect her for what she has done for the Air Force.

00:16:07How I frankly respect Bartolucci, Ferri and Melillo.

00:16:13I respect these three.

00:16:16And she even knows why.

00:16:17We'd like to know too, but what does it mean?

00:16:20That someone gave the order to remove the name Ustica from classified Air Force documents.

00:16:24military, excuse me.

00:16:27Yes, it's a circular from the time, urging all commands to avoid talking about Ustica.

00:16:35Because it would have been more difficult to locate the documents in the past.

00:16:39And of course, absolutely yes.

00:16:39So, Oguardi's words find confirmation, in my opinion, in their authenticity, then I repeat

00:16:48he also takes responsibility for everything he is saying this evening, in

00:16:52words of Spadolini, to whom he had brought that document.

00:16:57In 1990, Spadolini left journalists with a puzzle.

00:17:04Do you know what this puzzle is?

00:17:06It's about the Libyan MIG.

00:17:09Put it in graphics.

00:17:10Discover the truth about the Libyan MIG and you will have found the key to the Ustica massacre.

00:17:15So, now I'll tell you something.

00:17:18It has always been said that it is a fantasy that Libyan MIGs will go and try to enter the

00:17:25our territory at the 19th of the scheduled flights.

00:17:28Marshal Sardu answered my question.

00:17:33It was there, at that radar base in Marsala.

00:17:36And sometimes something strange happened.

00:17:38Listen.

00:17:42In his life, has he ever happened to spot a military aircraft in the slipstream very close to

00:17:51a civilian aircraft?

00:17:52It happened that a Libyan plane did not have authorization.

00:17:57Did you get it there though, did you identify it?

00:17:59So, the planes took off from De Birgi.

00:18:02I went to look nearby and there were two planes, one airliner and one military, which was

00:18:06under the plane.

00:18:07Libyan?

00:18:08Libyan, yes.

00:18:09So the Libyans played these pranks every now and then?

00:18:12Potassi.

00:18:13Because you know that it is said that that night in the wake of the famous DC-9 of Italy there could be

00:18:21to be a covered plane that did not want to be seen.

00:18:26So it's not an impossible thing to think about.

00:18:31That is, it had already happened in the past.

00:18:33It had happened.

00:18:34Libyan planes came to Italy for maintenance.

00:18:38At least I know from a colleague and he used to go to Venice every now and then to do maintenance.

00:18:45of these Libyan planes.

00:18:46He said but if he is our enemy how can that Olympic plane come here to Italy and do something?

00:18:51maintenance?

00:18:52This country, Italy, is a bit strange.

00:18:54Oh yes, a little bit.

00:18:55The Mi that fell in Calabria escaped Italian radar.

00:18:59Because it definitely came down low and so I no longer had the strength to get back in.

00:19:04He ran out of gas and threw himself there.

00:19:06But this means that in theory an enemy could enter the territory even

00:19:14that evening at 11pm?

00:19:16Maybe so too.

00:19:19So, Marshal Sardu's words open an incredible window.

00:19:24That is, we have proof that the Milglibians were in line.

00:19:28This is a very important statement.

00:19:32There is another mystery though and I have to be honest.

00:19:35You all know that at a certain point in this story the Ustica tragedy intersects.

00:19:40what does it intersect with?

00:19:41With a miglibic that officially falls on July 18th in the Sila mountains.

00:19:49There is a ruling that says it has nothing to do with it, it has become final, it has nothing to do with it,

00:19:55absolutely nothing, the fall of the miglibico on the Sila mountain with the Ustica tragedy.

00:20:02We owe this to intellectual honesty, but we still have some suspicions.

00:20:08Because while the whole town of Monte Silano says it fell on the 18th, there is a student, a former military student

00:20:16What do you say, but how? They woke me up on the night of the 28th and made me and

00:20:22others

00:20:22comrades on the Sila looking for something.

00:20:25What? Feel the wood in Petra Calvina who found this man.

00:20:34This is actually a mural with a MiG. The MiG-23 changed the history of this country.

00:20:40There is no doubt about it.

00:20:45What are you being told?

00:20:47Nothing, going to a place we didn't know was Castel Silano, finding something we didn't know what.

00:20:54Well, were you unaware of everything? Unaware of everything, yes, yes.

00:20:57So it was June 28, 1980? Yes, yes.

00:21:01Yes, because in July I wasn't in the barracks.

00:21:06How many days did you stay? Two days.

00:21:09The change arrived at one in the morning.

00:21:13We arrived here around 9am to look for this mysterious object.

00:21:19Then when we got down we saw that it was the plane.

00:21:28I remember that the plane was blue, with a small canopy, and the person inside was leaning over the steering wheel.

00:21:37He was bent over like this.

00:21:40The next day the body was missing.

00:21:42But what do I know, I didn't take it.

00:21:44But if he wasn't there, you were on guard, did you see if anyone came here to take him?

00:21:48You're right, you're absolutely right.

00:21:51But you see what large spaces there are.

00:21:54Because since I was here, one was there, one was there, I brought that from one side they entered and yes

00:22:00they must be taken.

00:22:05The trial establishes that the pilot was found outside the plane.

00:22:09The pilot was inside.

00:22:11However, in the subsequent procedural investigation, the MIG 23 was placed on July 18th.

00:22:16Eh, this is not neck.

00:22:17Around 11am.

00:22:19This is not neck.

00:22:19He says this at the trial.

00:22:21This means that Filippo Di Benedetto's story is not being taken into consideration.

00:22:26Very likely, yes.

00:22:28But it was June, the 28th, because I wasn't in the barracks from July 5th to July 20th.

00:22:34No one ever pointed out that the general threatened me in the Cosenza court.

00:22:40Threatened in what sense?

00:22:41Because I had to keep quiet.

00:22:48But of all those 12, 14 of you who were here, but no one told that episode as Filippo did later.

00:22:55Of Benedict?

00:22:56Because they knew what the meeting was about.

00:22:58They were much smarter than me and did the right thing by not talking.

00:23:02Why?

00:23:03Because then you don't see what happens.

00:23:06Didn't you hear from me?

00:23:07All side for nothing.

00:23:09When you go and clash with people stronger than you, with the powers that be, they destroy you.

00:23:14I do it for the spirit of justice of the people who need to know the truth.

00:23:23But why do you think it isn't considered credible?

00:23:27Because another scenario opens up.

00:23:31And this scenario, in my opinion, is not good.

00:23:34It's no good for anyone with a guilty conscience.

00:23:37And there was a blanket on fire in the air there, that's for sure.

00:23:49This former student says he saw the pilot's body inside the cockpit of the MIG.

00:23:56Actually, I'll show you the photographs that are known.

00:24:02I found them in the archive.

00:24:03Here it is, the pilot is lying on the ground, they are the wreckage of the plane and therefore they contradict what he said.

00:24:16of Benedict.

00:24:17But he says the next day it was gone.

00:24:21So, I repeat, there is no definitive verdict.

00:24:25But there is something strange.

00:24:26And there is also Dr. Zurlo who is the man who performed the autopsy.

00:24:31Listen to what he said.

00:24:35The thing that struck us immediately was that the decomposition of the body seemed to backdate the pilot's death.

00:24:48more than the five days you're wondering about.

00:24:51Which makes one think that things had happened much earlier than what was said, than what was described.

00:24:59I remember in particular that an officer who had come to take the digital evidence of the pilot, evidently, the skin

00:25:11of the hand turned inside out like a glove.

00:25:15So evidently it is a colliquative state of the tissues that dates back much more than the five days that were mentioned.

00:25:25in the first appraisal.

00:25:26You had found nests of larvae in the body of the Libyan pilot.

00:25:33This also seems to me to be a technically incontrovertible fact.

00:25:37Which makes the death date back at least 20 days, at the very least.

00:25:45Here, this interview was taken from the news and therefore raises another question mark.

00:25:52But there is a witness who also never spoke on television, he was heard for several hours by the

00:25:58magistrates, who says

00:26:00That evening I saw something I've never seen before, I was in Calabria with my family

00:26:04and it was around 9 o'clock on that famous 27th evening.

00:26:08Look, Laura Capone.

00:26:18We were in Calabria, my wife, on the terrace of a hotel in Sellia Marina.

00:26:25At one point, before going to dinner, it was 9, 9, and 10.

00:26:30Looking at the Sila mountains I saw some lightning.

00:26:33There were two areas, one hitting that side with these flashes.

00:26:36What were these flashes like?

00:26:37All horizontal, but they lasted about a minute.

00:26:41It seemed like one was hitting another, one was hitting another, there was no discussion, they were shooting.

00:26:49Then we saw these two planes right on the water's surface, very fast, going from the trajectory, let's say from Catanzaro, towards

00:26:59Crotone.

00:26:59The trajectory was this.

00:27:03What were these planes made of?

00:27:05They were completely green, an olive green, olive green without rosettes, there was nothing.

00:27:12I've only seen him very quickly, let's say, in profile.

00:27:16What struck me was the tip and the very close and elongated fuselage.

00:27:22How many seats did this plane have?

00:27:24One, one.

00:27:25I saw the pilot well inside.

00:27:27I'll show you these planes.

00:27:31Do you recognize them?

00:27:32I recognize them.

00:27:34My vision is this.

00:27:36I can clearly see that they have an elongated cockpit, there is a pilot.

00:27:42These are F-104s.

00:27:44But you are not able to say what country they were from?

00:27:48I do not know.

00:27:49They don't even have rosettes.

00:27:51They look pretty much the same to me as these here.

00:27:54What did he think?

00:27:55I didn't think anything.

00:27:57I connected it instead after about twenty days when in the newspaper the being that they had found this MiG plane

00:28:04on the Asylum.

00:28:05It is a Soviet-made single-engine, single-seater MiG-23.

00:28:11So there was that battle there, that plane crashed that same evening.

00:28:16This is her first time speaking on TV.

00:28:18Why after 40 years?

00:28:20Every day ago I went to Rome to see a judge because honestly all these things were growing on me too

00:28:28a little anxiety.

00:28:29There were several dead, we don't escort him.

00:28:32Quite a few deaths, so I took a risk too.

00:28:34Among other things, this judge from Rome told me, look, don't tell anyone because you're at risk.

00:28:39In the end, what did you think of this story?

00:28:41I think there are a lot of dishonest people in the world.

00:28:47Who knows, the truth should speak, also out of respect for the dead who have been there.

00:28:55This evening we talked about a highly classified document that speaks of a war in the skies.

00:29:02I know that this word is much contested, but this document is very clear.

00:29:13We also found this helmet.

00:29:16We fought for this helmet thanks to a colleague called Paolo Ruffino,

00:29:20who is a very good investigator and investigative journalist,

00:29:24concerning an American pilot who died in the Mediterranean.

00:29:29It has something to do with the Ustica massacre.

00:29:31Let's go and see what Ilenia Petra Calvina discovered.

00:29:42When will your husband find this helmet?

00:29:44My husband found it in early July 1980, immediately after the Ustica accident.

00:29:53This is the helmet, it still had some bars that my husband then removed.

00:29:58This was attached inside the protective casing.

00:30:03The pilot's name was there.

00:30:07Is this Amantea beach?

00:30:10Yes.

00:30:11And does your husband find the helmet here?

00:30:14Yes, he was coming back from fishing.

00:30:17He saw the helmet up front.

00:30:20And we ask a local hotelier for confirmation.

00:30:23Are you sure that the fisherman found the helmet in July, immediately after Ustica?

00:30:29There is sure, since the cliff was there, but he went fishing and found this helmet

00:30:33here.

00:30:34And do you see it physically?

00:30:35Yes, it was a helmet of this pilot.

00:30:38He had two freshmen.

00:30:40But when he found the helmet, what condition was it in?

00:30:45Externally it looked new, but the visor was missing.

00:30:47We can say that he was here from...

00:30:49Maybe a few hours, because anyone who saw it would have taken it.

00:30:56Did he have the thought that it could be connected to Ustica?

00:30:59Yes, after we connected the fact of the plane crash in Sila.

00:31:05If it's something like that, let's say, from the State, that they want to hide, it's better to avoid it.

00:31:12So he never reported it, never told the authorities, never told anyone?

00:31:16Ninth.

00:31:19In your opinion, did your husband regret anything?

00:31:21He should have dominated it, yes.

00:31:24To give peace to the people who died, more than anything.

00:31:32From the research we did online, it turns out that this helmet actually belonged to a pilot who died in

00:31:421981.

00:31:43But will it really be like this?

00:31:46Because look, it was found in perfect condition.

00:31:51I think it's a helmet, after many months in salt water, but we'll work on this helmet.

00:31:59First of all, I'd like to introduce you to Professor Zanero, from the Polytechnic University of Milan, good evening.

00:32:06A very serious and important job has been done, because he teaches processing systems.

00:32:11What do you need to get a different view of the Italian skies that night?

00:32:15What did you do? Quick, please.

00:32:17We did what is normally done with computer-based trial evidence.

00:32:23We have been provided with the tracks from the various radars that were also mentioned earlier.

00:32:29And we just put them on maps and calculations,

00:32:34trying to highlight some particular situations that were also mentioned earlier by Professor Zanero.

00:32:42So, I ask the director to start from the Condor point.

00:32:47We have many maps, but since time forces us to go quickly.

00:32:52Professor Dallamese, what are we seeing?

00:32:54With the red trail it's the 19th.

00:32:58Very danceable, huh?

00:33:00You're welcome, professor.

00:33:02So, he's very danceable for two reasons.

00:33:04The first reason is that it is far from the radar, 200 km,

00:33:08and so the radar is not that precise.

00:33:14The second reason is that those fluctuations in the angular position of the aircraft

00:33:23They are so high that they are even higher than the estimated errors made by the radar.

00:33:32So there could be the famous MIG that that document was talking about,

00:33:36the whole idea of who has and thinks that it is MIG hidden in the slipstream?

00:33:42They are possible if we hypothesize a plane hidden under the 19th,

00:33:52because in this way the Azimuth errors are accentuated.

00:33:57Excuse me, that blue line on the side that we have,

00:34:00that lateral blue line that we see,

00:34:02those little dots that are there,

00:34:05What do they represent instead, developed by the Polytechnic?

00:34:09Those dots represent the plots after the accident,

00:34:14which are only first...

00:34:16We have two types of colors,

00:34:18a yellow one, look carefully at the map,

00:34:21on the left they are very small,

00:34:23I hope they can be seen on TV,

00:34:25they are yellow.

00:34:27They would be... what would they be, professor?

00:34:29Those are the plots that together with those two previous plots,

00:34:35in slang we call them minus 17 and minus 12,

00:34:39correlate with each other to form the track of a fast airplane

00:34:43which intersects the route of the 19th.

00:34:46In reality all the experts who have followed one another in these investigations

00:34:53they believe they are from two planes,

00:34:55why two planes doing an attack maneuver like this

00:34:58they are... they travel as a couple,

00:35:01they don't travel alone.

00:35:02So sorry, among the blue dots then,

00:35:04among the blue dots,

00:35:06sorry, I'm directing the telegrams from below

00:35:09because otherwise it really seems like

00:35:11go over the professor's face,

00:35:13I wouldn't want to do it.

00:35:14There are some yellow dots,

00:35:16blue dots at the bottom.

00:35:18Yes.

00:35:19Why?

00:35:21So, the yellow dots are the ones that correlate with each other

00:35:26to form a quick track,

00:35:28as I said before.

00:35:28So it would be the hypothetical military aircraft?

00:35:32The track of the plane,

00:35:34or rather, of the two military aircraft

00:35:36who make an attack maneuver towards the 19th.

00:35:39But there is another, more serious question to ask.

00:35:41Why are they doing this attack maneuver?

00:35:44You don't attack a civilian radar.

00:35:46Military aircraft don't normally do these things.

00:35:51Certainly not.

00:35:52Normally.

00:35:53So, the most reasonable hypothesis

00:35:55is that in the wake of the 19th

00:35:57there was another plane instead

00:35:59which was an enemy plane,

00:36:01read Libyan MIG 23,

00:36:04and the attack maneuver

00:36:05It was made against that plane.

00:36:07And I ask a favor.

00:36:08It has always been said though

00:36:10that whoever is against this thesis

00:36:11he says that part,

00:36:12can you kindly send me the graphics as an overlay,

00:36:16and the lower part,

00:36:17all those dots we see,

00:36:19I use the term pallino to be more understanding,

00:36:22they are actually pieces of the falling plane.

00:36:25Why isn't that the case in your opinion?

00:36:27Some of those plots are falling pieces,

00:36:31but not all,

00:36:32because some of them

00:36:34they correlate perfectly

00:36:36in position and at speed

00:36:38to form a trace.

00:36:40And they even correlate

00:36:42with points minus 17 and minus 12

00:36:44which would represent

00:36:45the initial part of this track

00:36:47when the flight of these military planes

00:36:50It is parallel to that of the 19th.

00:36:53At some point I realize it,

00:36:55they make the attack maneuver.

00:36:57The Libyan MIG notices it

00:36:59because it is illuminated by radar

00:37:01and then all the lights will come on

00:37:02which has on a dashboard

00:37:04and run away

00:37:05and they follow him to Calabria

00:37:07and here we reconnect.

00:37:10Marshal Sardu

00:37:11he told me before

00:37:12which very often

00:37:13when he does maneuvers of this type

00:37:14very fast

00:37:15then they go into a nosedive

00:37:16and they get lost

00:37:17because flying down

00:37:18in an instant

00:37:20they are more beaten by the grada

00:37:21because they go too fast

00:37:23at speed

00:37:25at low altitudes

00:37:26from which the grada escape.

00:37:28Not so low

00:37:29because we are very far away here

00:37:33from Rome

00:37:34so the earth

00:37:35it has a curved shape

00:37:38and so it is easily

00:37:39in this case

00:37:41the calculations had been done.

00:37:42We went to France

00:37:43you heard

00:37:44Amato said

00:37:46France must say

00:37:47there is something

00:37:48the secret document

00:37:49talks about Mirage

00:37:51etc.

00:37:51we learned it this evening

00:37:52why do we go to a base

00:37:54in France

00:37:55precisely in Cossica

00:37:56where the famous base is

00:37:58of Solenzara

00:37:59many years ago

00:38:00the right arm

00:38:02of the general

00:38:03Charles Albert

00:38:04from the Church

00:38:04Colonel Bozzo

00:38:06he went on vacation

00:38:08in Solenzara

00:38:09to rest

00:38:11Unfortunately

00:38:12he chose a hotel

00:38:13near this base

00:38:14which in reality

00:38:15it wasn't supposed to be

00:38:16active in the evening

00:38:17but

00:38:19according to what

00:38:20he said

00:38:21even the magistrates

00:38:22that evening

00:38:23everything happened

00:38:24we're back

00:38:25with our Ronchin

00:38:26with his son

00:38:27by Colonel Bozzo

00:38:28see what he tells us

00:38:33here are the two

00:38:36beautiful places

00:38:47my dad

00:38:48he needed

00:38:50to rest

00:38:50and that night

00:38:52it exploded in him

00:38:53hell

00:39:00they are heard

00:39:01airplanes

00:39:02that came

00:39:02they were going

00:39:03you couldn't sleep

00:39:05at what time

00:39:06you felt this

00:39:07come and go

00:39:08of airplanes

00:39:08let's say

00:39:09the bulk

00:39:10of traffic

00:39:11he will have come

00:39:13around the

00:39:137-8 pm

00:39:15and he went on

00:39:17all night long

00:39:17until 2

00:39:182.30

00:39:19that is you

00:39:19you were in bed

00:39:20Already?

00:39:20in the middle of the night

00:39:22my dad

00:39:23he says

00:39:24let's pack our bags

00:39:25let's go away

00:39:26I'm here

00:39:26I can't stay

00:39:27I can't sleep

00:39:28let's go look

00:39:29another hotel

00:39:35let's go back to the hotel

00:39:36let's go to sleep

00:39:37around 11

00:39:40which was a traffic

00:39:41that not

00:39:42I said

00:39:43Look

00:39:44that went on

00:39:45until 2:30

00:39:46at 3 am

00:39:46the mistress

00:39:47she apologized

00:39:48with us

00:39:49he said

00:39:49This

00:39:49it's an episode

00:39:52for us too

00:39:53completely

00:39:54out of the ordinary

00:39:56because usually

00:39:58the planes

00:39:59they end

00:40:00in the early afternoon

00:40:01to do exercises

00:40:03and their maneuvers

00:40:04and he told us

00:40:05probably

00:40:06it is due to the fact

00:40:07that fell

00:40:08one of your planes

00:40:09from that day there

00:40:10everything happened

00:40:11calmly

00:40:12the planes were flying

00:40:13their schedule

00:40:14established

00:40:21those that I

00:40:22I can recognize

00:40:23they are the mirages

00:40:25French

00:40:26because they have

00:40:26a particular shape

00:40:28the wings are

00:40:29delta

00:40:30so I am

00:40:31easily recognizable

00:40:41he remembers

00:40:42what do they have

00:40:43the French answered

00:40:45when the Italian government

00:40:46he asked for information

00:40:48on the activity

00:40:49here

00:40:50the Solenzara base

00:40:51it was declared

00:40:53no longer operational

00:40:54that is, they finished

00:40:56their operations

00:40:58within the time

00:41:00in the normal afternoon

00:41:01what I ask myself

00:41:03that's exactly it

00:41:05Meaning what

00:41:05you declare

00:41:07that the base

00:41:07it was closed

00:41:08but you were flying

00:41:09around

00:41:10where they were going

00:41:12these planes?

00:41:18Roberto Bozzo

00:41:19son of the colonel

00:41:20of the carabinieri

00:41:21Draft

00:41:21he says

00:41:23where were you flying to?

00:41:24where they were going

00:41:25these planes?

00:41:26the official letter

00:41:28because then

00:41:28it's clear

00:41:29that every time

00:41:29they tell us

00:41:30there is the official letter

00:41:31but listen

00:41:32what does he say

00:41:32the official letter

00:41:33the accident

00:41:34what is being talked about

00:41:36that is Ustica

00:41:37it took place

00:41:38out of hours

00:41:39normal

00:41:40of work

00:41:40of the airbase

00:41:41of Solenzara

00:41:42this is the official document

00:41:43of the French Embassy

00:41:44the radars

00:41:46they had interrupted

00:41:47their operational activity

00:41:49and they were no longer

00:41:50in operation

00:41:53and among other things

00:41:55without anyone

00:41:56have you ever asked him

00:41:58they write

00:41:59we also believe

00:42:00to say

00:42:00that no vehicle

00:42:02of the French army

00:42:03was present

00:42:05in the area

00:42:06when it happened

00:42:06the accident

00:42:09At that time

00:42:09or Colonel Bozzo

00:42:11you understand

00:42:14or someone else

00:42:15can help us

00:42:16to understand

00:42:17that's why

00:42:18that I went

00:42:18in person

00:42:19in France

00:42:20because I had

00:42:20a piece of news

00:42:22who gave it to me

00:42:22a French colleague of mine

00:42:23that soon

00:42:24we will listen live

00:42:26from Paris

00:42:26he told me

00:42:27Maximum

00:42:27go look for

00:42:29in that area

00:42:30of France

00:42:31there is a 007

00:42:33what can you give us?

00:42:34some things

00:42:35or say things

00:42:35I went

00:43:34who responds

00:43:36I went

00:43:37to see

00:43:38General De Carolis

00:43:39De Carolis

00:43:40General De Carolis

00:43:41what's up with the 2nd bureau

00:43:43and I told him

00:43:44that the French etat majori

00:43:45he passed it on to me

00:43:46the message

00:43:46the radar

00:43:47it is maintenance

00:43:48the radar

00:43:49he didn't work

00:43:50the radar

00:43:51he didn't work

00:43:51the radar

00:43:52he stopped

00:43:54there is what he told me

00:43:56to the Italian majors

00:43:57and there's what he said

00:43:58the French state

00:44:00the French authority

00:44:00he said

00:44:01of which the radar

00:44:02it was closed

00:44:03there is as you know

00:44:05but if you say

00:44:06that in Solenzara

00:44:08the radar

00:44:08It's under maintenance

00:44:10No?

00:44:11there is a little bit yes

00:44:12for me

00:44:12Why

00:44:16how do you do it?

00:44:17to think

00:44:18that a base

00:44:19with many planes

00:44:20is not protected

00:44:21from the radar?

00:44:22there is very important

00:44:24with the radar

00:44:25like the

00:44:26or not?

00:44:28and this is not

00:44:29it doesn't concern it

00:44:30I know the French eye

00:44:32the question

00:44:33who asked me

00:44:33to transmit

00:44:34and the answer

00:44:35that I put

00:44:36with the Italian majors

00:44:37yes but

00:44:38the Italian radars

00:44:40they said

00:44:40that they did not see

00:44:41because they were

00:44:43in simulation

00:44:44then I want them

00:44:45Italian

00:44:46It is not true

00:44:47It is not true

00:44:48It is not true

00:44:48It is true

00:44:49he stopped

00:44:51this is stopped

00:44:53the other is stopped

00:44:54everyone is stopped

00:44:56for 9 hours

00:44:57at 9:10

00:45:01as he says

00:45:02it's time for the beekeeping

00:45:33but not

00:45:34he said

00:45:34Macron must speak

00:45:35but not

00:45:36what do you want to talk about?

00:45:37to Macron

00:45:38At that time

00:45:38he makes Macron ask him

00:45:40but not

00:45:42Not

00:45:43you give an address

00:45:44and I appeared to you

00:45:45the law

00:45:48At that time

00:45:50this interview

00:45:52it makes us understand

00:45:53like the French

00:45:54actually

00:45:54they gave

00:45:55an answer

00:45:56just to give it

00:45:57Like this

00:45:57formally

00:45:58but there is something

00:45:59moreover

00:46:00that I would like

00:46:00that François

00:46:01Delabarre

00:46:02who is a journalist

00:46:02very well known

00:46:03by Paris Match

00:46:04French

00:46:05that gave me

00:46:06the news

00:46:07where to find

00:46:07this 007

00:46:08can you tell us?

00:46:10this evening

00:46:10François good evening

00:46:11we are late

00:46:12for which

00:46:13Excuse me

00:46:13I see

00:46:15in the background

00:46:16Paris

00:46:16the Eiffel Tower

00:46:17At that time

00:46:18this story

00:46:20you lived it

00:46:21Hi Massimo

00:46:21Good evening

00:46:22HI

00:46:22Here you are

00:46:23there are two things

00:46:24what would you like to say?

00:46:25important

00:46:25tell me right away

00:46:30it was a lot

00:46:31difficult

00:46:32to search

00:46:33information

00:46:34Why

00:46:34even 44 years old

00:46:36After

00:46:36the people

00:46:37he doesn't speak

00:46:38only

00:46:40I spoke

00:46:40with a friend

00:46:41of a friend

00:46:42who was general

00:46:43and he told me

00:46:44I know someone

00:46:45who knows everything

00:46:46on these things

00:46:47he called him

00:46:48and after a few days

00:46:50he called me back

00:46:51he told me

00:46:51Look

00:46:52you can't collect

00:46:54no information

00:46:55because he tells me

00:46:56which is a state affair

00:46:58a state affair

00:47:00it's the same answer

00:47:02that they gave

00:47:03the Belgian armed forces

00:47:05they said

00:47:06we can't talk

00:47:07we had planes in the air

00:47:08but it's a question

00:47:10of safety

00:47:11of the Belgian State

00:47:12we can't talk about it

00:47:13Now

00:47:13what does it have to do with it?

00:47:14of the Belgian State

00:47:15with Ustica

00:47:16God only knows

00:47:17there is a feeling

00:47:18that you had

00:47:19when you met

00:47:20You too

00:47:21007

00:47:22with whom I spoke

00:47:23I

00:47:24what a feeling

00:47:24he gave you

00:47:25when you saw it

00:47:30that this lie

00:47:32he did it

00:47:33because he couldn't do it

00:47:35otherwise

00:47:36they left it

00:47:37alone

00:47:39and he couldn't

00:47:40provide the information

00:47:41that they wanted

00:47:42the Italian authorities

00:47:44the Italian 007s

00:47:45and then

00:47:46was

00:47:48In my opinion

00:47:49it was a thing

00:47:49difficult for him

00:47:50therefore

00:47:51Now

00:47:51it's a relief

00:47:52to speak

00:47:53of this thing

00:47:54Why

00:47:55that lie

00:47:56that on the fact

00:47:58that the

00:47:59the base

00:47:59it was closed

00:48:00Surely

00:48:01he did it

00:48:02why not

00:48:02could do

00:48:03otherwise

00:48:04François

00:48:05I thank you

00:48:06and I apologize

00:48:07if it was

00:48:07quick

00:48:09but I have to do

00:48:09still talking

00:48:10many people

00:48:11a hug

00:48:12thanks for your

00:48:13collaboration

00:48:14I have to show

00:48:15now something

00:48:16which still concerns

00:48:16France

00:48:17it's another mystery

00:48:18these images too

00:48:20they are not there

00:48:21never seen before

00:48:22in the center

00:48:23why I say

00:48:23France

00:48:24Why

00:48:24it had been

00:48:25entrusted

00:48:26to France

00:48:27a company

00:48:27IFREMER

00:48:28the recovery

00:48:30of the remains

00:48:31of the 19th

00:48:32Italy

00:48:32precipitate

00:48:33at 3,000

00:48:34over 3,500

00:48:35meters

00:48:35at the bottom

00:48:35of the sea

00:48:36in 1987

00:48:38operations begin

00:48:39in 1988

00:48:41look at these pictures

00:48:43they are the images

00:48:44that go on air

00:48:45on TG1

00:48:45there is even

00:48:46for the importance

00:48:47the voice of Bruno Vespa

00:48:49to comment

00:48:50what it was

00:48:51a big scoop

00:48:52they are images

00:48:53perfect

00:48:54clear

00:48:54see also

00:48:55the bottom of the sea

00:48:56the sambia

00:48:58it is still

00:48:59there is no

00:49:00nothing special

00:49:02all the same

00:49:03Attention

00:49:04Now

00:49:05to the images

00:49:06what I'll show you

00:49:08they are always turned

00:49:09from IFREMER

00:49:10the company

00:49:11that swallows

00:49:12at 3,000

00:49:12as I was saying before

00:49:13the submarines

00:49:14at 3,700 meters

00:49:16about

00:49:16be careful

00:49:17look here

00:49:19it's the first time

00:49:21that IFREMER is going down

00:49:22note

00:49:23we found it

00:49:24with red arrows

00:49:25of the furrows

00:49:26in the sand

00:49:28they are furrows

00:49:30anomalous

00:49:31it almost seems like

00:49:32that it has passed

00:49:33a medium

00:49:34submarine

00:49:35when I talked about it

00:49:36with the professor

00:49:37Leonardo Lecce

00:49:38who coordinated

00:49:39the operations

00:49:39recovery

00:49:40he told me

00:49:41Me too

00:49:42I stayed

00:49:43astonished

00:49:45when I saw

00:49:46these images

00:49:47look

00:49:47it really is

00:49:49incredible

00:49:50I am

00:49:51as if on the seabed

00:49:52had been

00:49:55someone

00:49:56Before

00:49:57of the French

00:49:59and look

00:50:00what to go

00:50:00at 3,500 meters

00:50:02coast

00:50:03very, very much

00:50:04and at the time

00:50:05there were few of them

00:50:07to have

00:50:08of the means

00:50:09marine

00:50:09of that magnitude

00:50:10so be it

00:50:11what do I tell you?

00:50:13this too

00:50:13it's a confidence

00:50:14with whom I had

00:50:15that I had

00:50:16with the president

00:50:17Julian Amato

00:50:18he told me

00:50:19that the boss

00:50:20of the services

00:50:21Admiral Martini

00:50:22he said

00:50:22we don't use

00:50:23the French ifremer

00:50:25because it is tied

00:50:26to the secret services

00:50:27French

00:50:27there and then

00:50:28Amato did not understand

00:50:31Perhaps

00:50:32Martini

00:50:33he had understood

00:50:33something more

00:50:34and there is another one

00:50:36ride

00:50:36important

00:50:37that these images

00:50:38they have to make us understand

00:50:39always Giuliano Amato

00:50:40he confided in me

00:50:42one thing

00:50:42that when he met

00:50:44Judge Bucarelli

00:50:45which was

00:50:46the first judge

00:50:47to work

00:50:47on Ustica

00:50:49at a certain point

00:50:51in a room

00:50:52they started talking

00:50:53secluded

00:50:54and Amato said

00:50:56but is there any chance?

00:50:57something

00:50:58have you ever seen

00:50:58Nothing

00:50:59from the seabed

00:51:00he spoke

00:51:00yes yes yes

00:51:01we saw

00:51:02some photographs

00:51:02that were given to us

00:51:04from a foreign state

00:51:08Beloved went out

00:51:10he told the press

00:51:11this thing

00:51:11that was news

00:51:12sensational

00:51:13because he hadn't gone yet

00:51:14the submarine

00:51:15of the Fremers

00:51:15in the depths

00:51:16he was sued

00:51:17from Bucarelli

00:51:18who said

00:51:18ninth

00:51:19It is not true

00:51:19I never told him

00:51:20well I don't think so

00:51:21that President Amato

00:51:22can lie

00:51:23on something like that

00:51:24and maybe these images

00:51:26they make us understand

00:51:27that someone

00:51:27he went further

00:51:29it has arrived

00:51:30the important moment

00:51:31I want to get it to you

00:51:32the comparison

00:51:33between the general

00:51:34Tricarico

00:51:35that must reach us

00:51:36good evening general

00:51:38please have a seat

00:51:39general

00:51:40together with Ramon Cipressi

00:51:42who is an engineer

00:51:44aeronautical

00:51:44please have a seat

00:51:45Cypresses

00:51:45At that time

00:51:47Cipressi, I ask you something.

00:51:48before confronting each other

00:51:51I remind everyone

00:51:52which Tricarico supports

00:51:53the existence of a bomb

00:51:55on board

00:51:55so the theory

00:51:56of the bomb

00:51:57she

00:51:58he even has some

00:51:59another one

00:52:00because there is another theory

00:52:01but I ask you something

00:52:02those seabeds

00:52:03Like this

00:52:04had ever seen them

00:52:05so clean

00:52:07there was someone else

00:52:09under

00:52:09what did they find

00:52:10the one below

00:52:11among the finds

00:52:12At that time

00:52:12Surely

00:52:13the IFRMR

00:52:13when he did

00:52:15that mission

00:52:16he detected

00:52:17and he showed

00:52:18let's say

00:52:18the videos

00:52:19in which evidently

00:52:20on the still sand

00:52:23at 3600 meters

00:52:24in depth

00:52:25something

00:52:27was missing

00:52:28Therefore

00:52:28we can imagine

00:52:30That

00:52:30someone

00:52:31that he had

00:52:32the capabilities

00:52:33to be able to go

00:52:34in a depth

00:52:35so high

00:52:35which is not a thing

00:52:36common

00:52:37yes it has

00:52:38Meaning what

00:52:39those furrows

00:52:40they can tell

00:52:41what I thought

00:52:42what I said

00:52:43the still sand

00:52:44there are no currents

00:52:45at 3500 meters

00:52:46the still sand

00:52:47those are some furrows

00:52:48evident

00:52:49and there are also

00:52:50of poisonings

00:52:51that is, it seems

00:52:51that some material is missing

00:52:53what was found

00:52:54but in addition

00:52:55beyond the finds

00:52:56Excuse me

00:52:565 kilometers away

00:52:57to the east

00:52:58of the point of fall

00:52:59it was found

00:53:00an American tank

00:53:01a pavco

00:53:021D aero

00:53:03300 gallon

00:53:04belonging

00:53:06at the marina

00:53:06of the United States

00:53:07but it was

00:53:08it was a find

00:53:09lost

00:53:11detached

00:53:12or represented

00:53:13of the defects

00:53:14of the damages

00:53:14no it was in pieces

00:53:15second

00:53:16I don't know the story

00:53:17but in my opinion

00:53:18it was recovered

00:53:19in pieces

00:53:19and the technicians

00:53:21they noticed

00:53:22which was a tank

00:53:23American

00:53:23only when

00:53:24they reassembled

00:53:24the pieces

00:53:25in the hangar

00:53:25I believe in practice

00:53:27of an area

00:53:27and at a certain point

00:53:29they noticed

00:53:30that this tank

00:53:31he was American

00:53:33Why

00:53:34the use is

00:53:35very particular

00:53:38but she found

00:53:39a detail

00:53:40of this tank

00:53:41that for the first time

00:53:42we can show

00:53:42this evening

00:53:43we can see

00:53:43the tank

00:53:44then this

00:53:45it's an American plane

00:53:48similar

00:53:49I would like to see

00:53:50the tank piece

00:53:51because it is very delicate

00:53:53it's very important

00:53:54to some particularity

00:53:55if we can catch it

00:53:57what is the special feature

00:53:58while they show us

00:54:00this detail

00:54:01At that time

00:54:02I find it

00:54:02the advance in the meantime

00:54:04let's say

00:54:04At that time

00:54:05there is a trace

00:54:07of blue paint

00:54:07on the bow

00:54:09that I myself too

00:54:11what study

00:54:12this case

00:54:12for 15 years

00:54:13I had never understood

00:54:14of what

00:54:15it was about

00:54:16when I asked

00:54:18to the technicians

00:54:18I've always been told

00:54:20they can be

00:54:21they say that she

00:54:22they didn't come out

00:54:23there is a technical problem

00:54:24since I go further

00:54:26the technical problems

00:54:27with the

00:54:28look

00:54:28hold me tight

00:54:29a camera

00:54:30tell me which camera is which

00:54:32squeeze

00:54:32here it is

00:54:33this is the tank

00:54:34you see

00:54:35it has a light blue color

00:54:37yes there is this

00:54:37me at the beginning

00:54:38it was thought

00:54:39I am trying to say

00:54:40that it was

00:54:40let's say

00:54:41oxidation defects

00:54:43due to the permanence

00:54:45underwater

00:54:45Then

00:54:46a comparison

00:54:48Instead

00:54:48with the aircraft

00:54:49present in the area

00:54:50in 1980

00:54:52it made us change our minds

00:54:54that is, this is actually

00:54:55I am

00:54:55what remains

00:54:57of a color

00:54:58of identification

00:54:59of a tank

00:55:00belonging to a department

00:55:02very precise

00:55:02Meaning what

00:55:03that plane

00:55:04the kind she's showing us

00:55:06belongs to that

00:55:08At that time

00:55:08in particular

00:55:10on airplanes

00:55:11of the Saratoga

00:55:12there were two

00:55:13two groups

00:55:14two squadrons

00:55:16that they carried

00:55:16this type

00:55:17of tank

00:55:18one was the

00:55:21VA105

00:55:21and the other

00:55:22the VA37 Bulls

00:55:23so it's another mystery

00:55:25that this evening

00:55:25let's put it there

00:55:26for the first time

00:55:27it was seen

00:55:28I have to give the floor now

00:55:29in Tricari

00:55:30the VA37 Bulls

00:55:31it has all the blue colors

00:55:32so it is

00:55:33a department color

00:55:34so it can't be said

00:55:36that got lost like this

00:55:37At that time

00:55:37we can say

00:55:38which surely

00:55:39that tank

00:55:41he was from that department

00:55:42and then

00:55:42as the tank

00:55:44it was not released

00:55:45normally

00:55:45it is fragmented

00:55:47and signs of fire

00:55:49something strange

00:55:51to that tank

00:55:52it must have happened

00:55:52Furthermore

00:55:53it is in a particular position

00:55:54Certain

00:55:55because it is not

00:55:56at any point

00:55:57of the search area

00:55:58had been found

00:55:59even a helmet

00:56:00among the finds

00:56:02American

00:56:03of an American pilot

00:56:03north of Sicily

00:56:05a helmet

00:56:06of a pilot

00:56:06of the Saratoga

00:56:07a flight helmet

00:56:08but it disappeared

00:56:09he disappeared

00:56:10it seems to have disappeared

00:56:11from sea practice

00:56:13ninth

00:56:13he disappeared

00:56:14I'll tell him

00:56:15because it cannot be disputed

00:56:17from tricarico

00:56:17this is no longer found

00:56:19general

00:56:20but I ask him something

00:56:21she's here this evening

00:56:22in front of people

00:56:24with whom he fought

00:56:25in all these years

00:56:26and have her here

00:56:27in this place

00:56:29it wasn't easy

00:56:31for them

00:56:32I have to tell him

00:56:32because obviously

00:56:33they have inside

00:56:35an emotional effort

00:56:37that she can well understand

00:56:38No?

00:56:39give me the word

00:56:40a euphemism

00:56:42why does it continue

00:56:43to think

00:56:44that it's a bomb

00:56:44and what are the elements

00:56:46that carry

00:56:46to this thought of his?

00:56:48I'll let you know

00:56:49first one thing

00:56:50the association

00:56:51of which I am a part

00:56:52which is chaired

00:56:53from the daughter

00:56:53of a victim

00:56:54of that massacre

00:56:56he tried

00:56:57to get in touch

00:56:58with the parity

00:57:00association

00:57:00from Bologna

00:57:01trying to understand

00:57:03if there was

00:57:04a way

00:57:04to collaborate

00:57:05and row

00:57:06both

00:57:07in the same direction

00:57:08to seek the truth

00:57:10because obviously

00:57:11not everyone is looking for it

00:57:12in fact many do

00:57:13of everything

00:57:13to hide it

00:57:14then one day

00:57:16I hope that

00:57:18tonight we gave

00:57:19of the elements

00:57:20a little strange

00:57:20absolutely

00:57:22then for goodness sake

00:57:24they will answer

00:57:25with the magistrates

00:57:25even if they said

00:57:26that they're all gone

00:57:27by the magistrates

00:57:28Therefore

00:57:28I couldn't

00:57:30Obviously

00:57:30to fight back

00:57:31for time reasons

00:57:32to all that

00:57:32that has been said

00:57:33I would have gladly done it

00:57:34Anyway

00:57:35let's get to the points

00:57:36because it's the bomb

00:57:37in her opinion

00:57:38then look

00:57:38she is here today

00:57:39to say this

00:57:40I want to tell you

00:57:41one more thing

00:57:42from the exam

00:57:42what I did

00:57:43coming here

00:57:44of that helmet

00:57:45I can tell you

00:57:45which very likely

00:57:47it's not a helmet

00:57:48of pilot

00:57:49combat

00:57:50Why

00:57:51the radio

00:57:53of the helmets

00:57:54of pilot

00:57:55combat

00:57:55they are incorporated

00:57:56in the mask

00:57:58of oxygen

00:57:58that one instead

00:57:59he has it

00:57:59sliding

00:58:00so that

00:58:01it's either a pilot's

00:58:02of helicopter

00:58:03or of an operator

00:58:04on board

00:58:05certainly not

00:58:05of a pilot

00:58:06combat

00:58:06it seems to me

00:58:07but things are going well

00:58:08the name

00:58:09I can't give it

00:58:10I would give it to you later

00:58:11to the American march

00:58:14and he was a pilot

00:58:15of combat

00:58:15Anyway

00:58:17he is a pilot

00:58:18of combat

00:58:19I don't want to say

00:58:19who and how

00:58:20let's go though

00:58:21to the images

00:58:22that we have

00:58:23to help her

00:58:24Why

00:58:25support

00:58:26that the bomb

00:58:26were inside

00:58:27of this plane

00:58:28placed

00:58:29in the toilet

00:58:30if I'm not mistaken

00:58:31on the basis

00:58:32of what

00:58:33do you support this?

00:58:34look in the meantime

00:58:34there is no

00:58:35someone

00:58:36let me see

00:58:36the tracks

00:58:37of the missile

00:58:38why the missile

00:58:40always leave

00:58:42of the tracks

00:58:43It is not true

00:58:44It is true

00:58:45I would wave them

00:58:46but in history

00:58:48excuse me for a second

00:58:50excuse me for a second

00:58:51Excuse me

00:58:52excuse me for a second

00:58:53we have a few minutes

00:58:55I have to give then

00:58:55the news line

00:58:56let's move on

00:58:58historically

00:58:58in all

00:58:59let's say

00:59:01the accidents

00:59:01and the tragedies

00:59:02in which he intervened

00:59:03a missile

00:59:04all these cockpits

00:59:06they had holes

00:59:07shotgun type

00:59:08Right?

00:59:09exactly like that

00:59:09not inert missiles

00:59:10but

00:59:11there are also

00:59:11of missiles

00:59:12so-called

00:59:13blast

00:59:13inert

00:59:14that do not cause

00:59:16that kind of

00:59:17holes

00:59:18in the cockpits

00:59:20they don't make careers on an airplane

00:59:21but she says

00:59:22they don't make careers on an airplane

00:59:23then why

00:59:24it's a bomb

00:59:25if there are any

00:59:25he tells you

00:59:26a moment

00:59:27let him talk

00:59:28because it's a bomb

00:59:29in your opinion?

00:59:31it's a bomb

00:59:32why is this

00:59:33why is it placed

00:59:33in the toilet

00:59:34especially as

00:59:35yes agreed

00:59:36I already said it

00:59:37it has been established

00:59:38from a college for Italy

00:59:39unanimously

00:59:40a college formed

00:59:42it was denied

00:59:46from the judge

00:59:47what is it about?

00:59:48it was denied

00:59:50from the judge

00:59:51No

00:59:52but how does he speak?

00:59:54there are 31

00:59:55civil sentences

00:59:56that deny

00:59:58this expertise

00:59:59At that time

00:59:59the toilet seat

01:00:01a moment

01:00:03I don't know if it even has a microphone

01:00:05Does Andrea have it?

01:00:08I don't think it has a microphone

01:00:09so you wait

01:00:10he doesn't come home

01:00:11Please

01:00:12but then we let him talk

01:00:14the toilet seat

01:00:16And

01:00:16the axis is intact

01:00:18he wants the answer

01:00:20the compartment

01:00:21it has no signs

01:00:22of explosives

01:00:23where it was located

01:00:24the bomb

01:00:24general?

01:00:25Then

01:00:25no wait

01:00:26everyone

01:00:27where it was located

01:00:28the bomb?

01:00:28all the

01:00:29a moment

01:00:30then there is

01:00:30the lady we know

01:00:32that we know

01:00:34which is placed

01:00:35there in front

01:00:36it has no signs

01:00:37of explosion

01:00:38Mrs. Calderone

01:00:40the openings

01:00:42they are all

01:00:43in the opposite direction

01:00:45Well

01:00:45I believe that we are

01:00:47wasting time

01:00:49letting us tell

01:00:50a pack of lies

01:00:52this evening we said

01:00:53some new things though

01:00:54But I tell her

01:00:55very important

01:00:56give space

01:00:57to the lies

01:00:58because now the general

01:01:00he has to tell me

01:01:01Where

01:01:01in the sentence

01:01:03it's written

01:01:04there's a bomb

01:01:06if not we'll stay here

01:01:07to read it all

01:01:09I didn't say

01:01:11Here you are

01:01:11when I can talk

01:01:13it makes me feel bad

01:01:13ninth

01:01:14so that you always keep in mind

01:01:15that the criminal process

01:01:17It's for two reasons

01:01:19happened

01:01:19after June 27

01:01:21just a moment

01:01:22and then

01:01:23from that process

01:01:24to pull out

01:01:25the truth

01:01:26on the fall

01:01:26it really is

01:01:27falsify history

01:01:29it really is

01:01:30to falsify justice

01:01:31it really is

01:01:32falsify documents

01:01:33a moment

01:01:33I have to make people talk

01:01:34I have to talk to you

01:01:36the load

01:01:36then I want to do

01:01:37I welcome you

01:01:38also to the professor

01:01:39Firao

01:01:39stay there

01:01:40which is the biggest

01:01:41metal expert

01:01:41I also want to say the risk

01:01:43no but I'm asking for it

01:01:43a courtesy

01:01:44I also want to say the risk

01:01:46to do things

01:01:46correct

01:01:47and duty

01:01:48undergo

01:01:49to this false one

01:01:50equal opportunities

01:01:54we respect

01:01:55we respect

01:01:56we respect

01:01:56Please

01:01:58I can

01:01:59please

01:02:00let's not interrupt

01:02:01let's listen to his vision

01:02:03of the bomb

01:02:04please

01:02:05All right

01:02:06we said

01:02:07many things

01:02:08this evening

01:02:08let's leave

01:02:09in a serious way

01:02:10say the possibility

01:02:11we are in a state

01:02:12by law

01:02:12the judges say so

01:02:14the truths

01:02:14not the generals

01:02:16otherwise

01:02:17then that sentence

01:02:18second degree

01:02:21which was pronounced

01:02:23December 15th

01:02:24of 2005

01:02:25it has been confirmed

01:02:28in Cassation

01:02:28from a college

01:02:31judging

01:02:32in which there was

01:02:33Margherita Cassano

01:02:35current

01:02:35first president

01:02:36of the Court of Cassation

01:02:38and Giovanni Canzio

01:02:39former president

01:02:40of the Court of Cassation

01:02:41this

01:02:42it's the Court of Cassation

01:02:44which confirms

01:02:45what is written

01:02:46in the criminal sentence

01:02:47in the criminal sentence

01:02:49is nullified

01:02:51without a shadow of a doubt

01:02:53the hypothesis

01:02:54of the air battle

01:02:55not the bomb

01:02:56of the air battle

01:02:57but I

01:02:58I have to read them

01:02:59Excuse me

01:02:59I have to read it to him

01:03:00we have a graphic

01:03:01Excuse me

01:03:01why on this

01:03:02we need to clarify

01:03:03but I'll read her the sentence

01:03:04but I'll read her a passage

01:03:05I'll read you the sentence

01:03:06which is more important

01:03:07I'll read you a passage

01:03:07but on the graphics

01:03:08where it says

01:03:09which is not

01:03:10nor a question

01:03:11of bomb

01:03:12nor a question

01:03:12of missile

01:03:13I'm reading today

01:03:14where the newspapers

01:03:15who speak

01:03:15I'll read it to you

01:03:16you see it

01:03:17kindly

01:03:18in graphics

01:03:18Thank you

01:03:19the same hypotheses

01:03:20it is emphasized

01:03:21hypothesis

01:03:22and no certainties

01:03:23of the demolition

01:03:24of the plane

01:03:24or a missile

01:03:25or explosion

01:03:26on board

01:03:26they didn't find

01:03:27he confirms

01:03:28since the carcass

01:03:29of the plane

01:03:30it bears no marks

01:03:31of the impact

01:03:31of the missile

01:03:32in the case of the bomb

01:03:33inside the plane

01:03:34so let's stop it

01:03:35to say

01:03:35that the sentences

01:03:37they say it is

01:03:37a bomb

01:03:39because he says

01:03:40exactly this

01:03:41and it is written

01:03:42I didn't say it

01:03:43I didn't say it

01:03:44which was a bomb

01:03:45let's be serious

01:03:46why didn't he cross it

01:03:47At that time

01:03:47I answer

01:03:48of what I said

01:03:49I didn't say

01:03:50that the sentence

01:03:51he says it was a bomb

01:03:52I say that the sentence

01:03:54second degree

01:03:55he's been saying for years

01:03:56this thing

01:03:57of course

01:03:58of course

01:03:59but I'll show it

01:04:01where is it happening

01:04:03at least the dignity

01:04:04to support

01:04:05what is said

01:04:06this is a plovone

01:04:06of execution

01:04:06Giletti

01:04:07this is a plovone

01:04:08of execution

01:04:08go ahead and talk

01:04:09Here you are

01:04:10it's she who offends

01:04:12the reason

01:04:13on behalf of the speaker

01:04:14she does not represent

01:04:16the air force

01:04:17she represents

01:04:18the distortion

01:04:19and the killing

01:04:20of the Air Force

01:04:21the shame

01:04:22of the Air Force

01:04:24she is not

01:04:24the air force

01:04:26that doesn't deserve it

01:04:27certain characters

01:04:28please

01:04:29you have misled

01:04:32you have ruined

01:04:33the air force

01:04:35a moment

01:04:35please

01:04:36please

01:04:37and they keep saying

01:04:38the fake

01:04:39aware

01:04:40to tell lies

01:04:41please

01:04:41a courtesy

01:04:43general

01:04:43come to me

01:04:44At that time

01:04:44general

01:04:45come to me

01:04:46come talk to me

01:04:47that I make her read

01:04:48the sentences

01:04:49I'll come and talk to you

01:04:50with her

01:04:50for sure

01:04:51and you have the courage

01:04:52come to me

01:04:53At that time

01:04:53snato lawyer

01:04:54a moment

01:04:56No

01:04:56Doctor Giretti

01:04:57look

01:04:58there is a thing for everything

01:04:59limit

01:04:59but sorry

01:05:00this grin

01:05:01this grin

01:05:02if he has to take it off

01:05:04because they died here

01:05:0581 people

01:05:06and this grin

01:05:08General Tricarico

01:05:09if he has to take it off

01:05:10they did everything

01:05:11to prevent

01:05:12that the truth would come out

01:05:1381 people

01:05:15and 13 children

01:05:16and she continues to deny

01:05:18and to distort the truth

01:05:20stop it

01:05:21we have to move on

01:05:22have dignity

01:05:24a moment

01:05:26shame

01:05:27a moment

01:05:30professor

01:05:30he is ashamed

01:05:31At that time

01:05:32look me in the face

01:05:33he is ashamed

01:05:33a moment

01:05:34please

01:05:35please

01:05:37please

01:05:38please

01:05:39At that time

01:05:39beyond the sentences

01:05:41Excuse me

01:05:41let's get out of this

01:05:42I ask you

01:05:43in a few minutes

01:05:45why it must have been

01:05:46a bomb

01:05:46Meaning what

01:05:47it's credible

01:05:48the message

01:05:50coming from Beirut

01:05:51by Colonel Giovannone

01:05:53of the SISMI

01:05:53what does he say?

01:05:54Attention

01:05:55that is possible

01:05:56saw the break

01:05:57of relationships

01:05:58between Libya

01:05:58and Italy

01:05:59which is the front

01:06:00of liberation

01:06:00for Palestine

01:06:01place a bomb

01:06:03somewhere

01:06:04plane hijackings

01:06:05it's credible

01:06:06that message

01:06:07which makes you think about this

01:06:08or is there in the plane

01:06:10something

01:06:10which makes her think about this

01:06:11answer a moment

01:06:13please

01:06:14kindly

01:06:14a moment

01:06:15let it pass

01:06:16leave a moment

01:06:17speak to the general

01:06:18Giovannine

01:06:19of '81

01:06:20Giovannine

01:06:21so it's a lie

01:06:22that one too

01:06:22they are also the numbers

01:06:24Please

01:06:25Please

01:06:25it was '81

01:06:26Enough

01:06:27you bark dignity

01:06:28to come and talk

01:06:30from me

01:06:30I'll explain it to you

01:06:32what have you done

01:06:33please

01:06:34I want to listen

01:06:35in silence

01:06:36have the courage

01:06:37to do it

01:06:38because it's the bomb

01:06:39leave the sentences alone

01:06:40because it's the bomb

01:06:41then why is it bomb

01:06:43a moment

01:06:44lawyer

01:06:44I understand

01:06:45I understand everything

01:06:46but I ask you

01:06:47the possibility

01:06:47to make people talk

01:06:48I represent

01:06:49140 families

01:06:50they lost

01:06:5181 children

01:06:52lawyer

01:06:53I ask you for courtesy

01:06:55respect

01:06:55a moment

01:06:56have the courage

01:06:57to come and talk

01:06:57with me

01:06:58I do it with myself

01:06:59the control

01:06:59I ask you kindly

01:07:01Mr. Giovannardi

01:07:02and companions

01:07:03come to me

01:07:04have the courage

01:07:05to come to me

01:07:06and talk to me

01:07:07lawyer

01:07:07I ask you for courtesy

01:07:09if I have to take it off

01:07:10the myth

01:07:10Please

01:07:11because it's the bomb

01:07:12in her opinion

01:07:12despite it all

01:07:13what emerged

01:07:14then there are

01:07:15certain points

01:07:16I repeat

01:07:17the sentence

01:07:19confirmed by the Supreme Court

01:07:20but what points

01:07:21there is?

01:07:21a certain point

01:07:22that there was not

01:07:23air battle

01:07:25but it was a process

01:07:27for two things

01:07:28come on come on

01:07:30makes me read

01:07:31of the passages

01:07:32no I can't do it

01:07:33she

01:07:33it was a process

01:07:36because they have

01:07:37supported

01:07:39the collapse

01:07:39structural

01:07:41for what reason

01:07:43cite the expert opinion

01:07:45Misiti

01:07:45and does not quote

01:07:46the radar one

01:07:47that was made

01:07:47After

01:07:48in which it was

01:07:49clearly stated

01:07:50that there had been

01:07:52an air strike

01:07:53by

01:07:54by

01:07:55of unknown persons

01:07:56to a mig

01:07:58Libyan

01:07:58hidden underneath

01:07:59the belly

01:07:59of the plane

01:08:01of the 19th

01:08:02Why

01:08:02does not even mention

01:08:04that

01:08:04look

01:08:05I beg you not

01:08:06a courtesy

01:08:06but enough

01:08:08the general

01:08:09continue to

01:08:09hold up

01:08:10a thesis

01:08:11that others

01:08:12they claim

01:08:13which is

01:08:13a bomb

01:08:14supports it

01:08:15the general

01:08:16he claims

01:08:17some elements

01:08:18Boys

01:08:19this is the passage

01:08:20Professor Firrao

01:08:22Excuse me

01:08:22the greatest expert

01:08:23stay there

01:08:24stay there

01:08:25professor

01:08:26he is the greatest expert

01:08:28Professor Firrao

01:08:29of metals

01:08:30in Italy

01:08:31What

01:08:32can you tell us?

01:08:34on this

01:08:34I have examined

01:08:38some fragments

01:08:40of the sink

01:08:42of the toilet

01:08:44where she had been

01:08:45summoned

01:08:46hypothetically

01:08:47the bomb

01:08:47immediately after the discovery

01:08:50it had been said

01:08:51That

01:08:52the bomb

01:08:53it had been

01:08:54placed

01:08:55below

01:08:57already on November 30th

01:09:00of 1992

01:09:03I said

01:09:04that the action

01:09:05after examining

01:09:07with the college

01:09:08metallographic

01:09:09fractographic

01:09:10tell me

01:09:11that the action

01:09:13it was from above

01:09:14downwards

01:09:14the fragments

01:09:16they do not report

01:09:17no sign

01:09:19no sign

01:09:21of deflagration

01:09:23of explosion

01:09:25Therefore

01:09:26if there

01:09:28Not

01:09:29they come

01:09:30obtained

01:09:32these signs

01:09:33this means

01:09:34that the bomb

01:09:34under

01:09:35there wasn't

01:09:36and there wasn't

01:09:37not even above

01:09:38the missile

01:09:39the missile version

01:09:40as far as

01:09:41concerns

01:09:42the missile

01:09:43there is no

01:09:45no points

01:09:47of the plane

01:09:48in which

01:09:49yes it can

01:09:51to affirm

01:09:52that a missile

01:09:53it's passed

01:09:54that a fragment

01:09:55it's passed

01:09:56why a fragment

01:09:58brings

01:09:59of fractures

01:10:01lateral

01:10:02around the hole

01:10:04which are particular

01:10:06they are fractures

01:10:07cutting

01:10:07while instead

01:10:09in this plane

01:10:10they are not here

01:10:11fractures

01:10:12of that kind

01:10:13even the so-called

01:10:15missile

01:10:16to

01:10:17blast

01:10:19which should

01:10:21have

01:10:22hit

01:10:23the area

01:10:24in front of

01:10:24the root

01:10:25of the altar

01:10:26right

01:10:28it wasn't

01:10:29tried

01:10:30from no one

01:10:30analyses

01:10:31on the fragments

01:10:32environment

01:10:33professor

01:10:33Thank you

01:10:34Therefore

01:10:34in this case

01:10:35listen

01:10:36has a vision

01:10:37as bigger

01:10:38metal expert

01:10:39you took us

01:10:39in one minute

01:10:40one minute

01:10:41what was it

01:10:42in her opinion

01:10:43she is an expert

01:10:44engineer of

01:10:44aeronautics

01:10:45so expert

01:10:46of the question

01:10:47he studied everything

01:10:48I'll ask you for a minute

01:10:49what was it

01:10:49more than anything else

01:10:50we read it right

01:10:51the cards

01:10:51because I want to say

01:10:52what was it

01:10:53in one minute

01:10:54At that time

01:10:55starting precisely

01:10:56from relationships

01:10:57fractometallographic

01:10:58that they did not find

01:10:59events

01:11:00Of

01:11:00let's say

01:11:01of splinters

01:11:02from the bomb

01:11:03and for the truth

01:11:04as confirmation

01:11:05Professor Fierao

01:11:05not even from a missile

01:11:06only remains

01:11:08a hypothesis

01:11:09that the airplane

01:11:11it was

01:11:13destabilized

01:11:13from one

01:11:14let's say

01:11:15light collision

01:11:17that he has

01:11:18touched

01:11:18in certain places

01:11:20the airplane

01:11:20as you can see

01:11:21that intersection

01:11:21what we did

01:11:22with new technologies

01:11:23the fact that it was

01:11:25destabilized

01:11:26the Polytechnic of Milan

01:11:26you can see it very well

01:11:27that a trail passes underneath

01:11:29There are

01:11:29there are definitely

01:11:30of the plots

01:11:32that cross

01:11:33the trajectory

01:11:34of the airplane

01:11:34Exactly

01:11:35in the moment

01:11:36where the airplane

01:11:37it deconstructs itself

01:11:39from the sequence

01:11:40of deconstruction

01:11:41which then among other things

01:11:42it also comes

01:11:43by experts

01:11:44of the accused party

01:11:46Therefore

01:11:48Taylor or Bazzocchi

01:11:49that I am

01:11:49let's say

01:11:50experts

01:11:51of great

01:11:52collision

01:11:53she seems to me

01:11:53of collision

01:11:54Fierao

01:11:54she discovered

01:11:55a first diversion

01:11:56in London

01:11:57it was done

01:11:58it's important that you tell him

01:11:59Certain

01:12:00Why

01:12:00they were

01:12:02brought

01:12:03to ours

01:12:04Attention

01:12:05of the fragments

01:12:08incorporated

01:12:09in which

01:12:10it was said

01:12:11That

01:12:12there were

01:12:13of the signs

01:12:14of explosion

01:12:15I'm leaving again

01:12:16of explosion

01:12:17we have them

01:12:18examined

01:12:19And

01:12:21but

01:12:21we discovered

01:12:23that those pieces

01:12:24they were never

01:12:25parties

01:12:26from Italy

01:12:27because she had photographed

01:12:28all the finds

01:12:29before sending them up

01:12:30in London

01:12:31the Air Force

01:12:31he had them

01:12:32photographed

01:12:33before

01:12:34send them

01:12:36to the so-called

01:12:37Rarde

01:12:37in Sevenoax

01:12:39near London

01:12:40Therefore

01:12:40someone

01:12:41he wanted to pass

01:12:43he wanted to pass

01:12:45that there was

01:12:45a bomb on board

01:12:46so she foiled

01:12:49an attempt

01:12:50heavy

01:12:51of misdirection

01:12:52And

01:12:52This

01:12:53we are saying it

01:12:54in Sevenoax

01:12:55General Tricarico

01:12:56she laughs at him

01:12:56but on this

01:12:57let me say

01:12:58one thing

01:12:59This

01:13:00he is an expert

01:13:01above the parties

01:13:01you have to make me say

01:13:02one thing

01:13:03on the super partes

01:13:04by Firrao

01:13:04At that time

01:13:05I can't anymore

01:13:06why do I have to give

01:13:07the news line

01:13:08At that time

01:13:08always when

01:13:09Firrao

01:13:10he is a person

01:13:11who said

01:13:11which based on

01:13:12to an agreement

01:13:12Italy-Libya

01:13:14Gaddafi

01:13:14Italian government

01:13:15there were the F-104s

01:13:17who left

01:13:18they were going to get

01:13:18the micro-23

01:13:19they escorted them

01:13:20up to Nukoslavia

01:13:21Then

01:13:22they were returning

01:13:23and with the help

01:13:24of a radar

01:13:25steering wheel

01:13:26they could

01:13:26return

01:13:27in Libya

01:13:28At that time

01:13:28this he said

01:13:29at university

01:13:30to some students

01:13:31in 2018

01:13:32this evening

01:13:33I questioned him

01:13:34as an expert

01:13:36I would have had

01:13:37the pleasure

01:13:38to have it

01:13:39as a student

01:13:39and then

01:13:41consequentially

01:13:42this gives

01:13:42an idea

01:13:43on reliability

01:13:44of that

01:13:45what does he say?

01:13:45Firrao

01:13:46At that time

01:13:47this gives

01:13:48an idea

01:13:48on reliability

01:13:49of that

01:13:50what does he say?

01:13:50Firrao

01:13:51and Firrao

01:13:52he is the man

01:13:53of the Mattei case

01:13:54the man

01:13:54who discovered

01:13:55what had happened

01:13:56to the aerose

01:13:56Mattei

01:13:57there too

01:13:58he's taken

01:13:58a delusion

01:13:59so for goodness sake

01:13:59I will

01:14:00no look

01:14:01general

01:14:01I cannot

01:14:02I have to give the line

01:14:02on the news

01:14:03but I give it like this

01:14:04with a video

01:14:05why we come back

01:14:06to that

01:14:07which is

01:14:07the Ustica tragedy

01:14:0881 people died

01:14:11the families

01:14:12of many of them

01:14:14I don't even have

01:14:14a tomb

01:14:15where to go

01:14:16to pray

01:14:16for their children

01:14:18for their fathers

01:14:18for their brothers

01:14:20one of these

01:14:21he lost

01:14:23the wife

01:14:23and three children

01:14:24of one

01:14:24three and seven years

01:14:25his name is Pasquale

01:14:27look

01:14:29Exactly

01:14:42Exactly

01:14:43at ten o'clock

01:14:44something

01:14:44he comes

01:14:45that

01:14:47of the office

01:14:48they found us

01:14:51fallen

01:14:55she is really

01:14:57the person

01:14:57who lost

01:14:58more familiar

01:14:59All

01:14:59I lost

01:15:00my daughter

01:15:01my sister-in-law

01:15:02my wife

01:15:03and my daughter

01:15:04I lost

01:15:05All

01:15:05I have nothing left

01:15:08no one else

01:15:17the child

01:15:18era

01:15:18maglanzo

01:15:19What

01:15:19my person

01:15:21a teacher

01:15:21of a water

01:15:23then that's enough

01:15:24as you see it

01:15:29you can stay with me

01:15:30in the car

01:15:32with all the mother

01:15:34the machine

01:15:35I know it

01:15:35you can stay

01:15:37Instead my wife no, I am a memory that I don't tell anyone, I kept it to myself, because

01:15:43I was a bit of a teacher.

01:15:52That's right, life goes on, life goes on, but how does life go on?

01:16:03It's a thickened life.

01:16:09A country that after 44 years is unable to provide certainty about those responsible for a tragedy of this magnitude,

01:16:21in short, it's not a country I believe in.

01:16:24I hope that politicians are able to open the drawers and go looking for the truth.

01:16:28Teginotte Line, sorry, I apologize for the delay, but you understand that we have been dealing with a very sensitive topic.

01:16:36Sorry, thanks for the space, have a good evening.

01:16:38Thank you.

01:16:40Thank you.

01:16:41Thank you.

01:16:42Thank you.

01:16:43Thank you.

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