L'intervista di Francesca Fagnani a Mirco Ricci, ex pugile professionista condannato per aver sequestrato un bambino a scopo di estorsione
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00:00Our next guest has moved from the sports news pages to the Nera pages.
00:06According to a ruling passed by the Supreme Court, he is guilty of kidnapping a 9-year-old child for extortion purposes,
00:13in addition to all the crimes he had already committed.
00:16He is still serving the sentence he was given, but he continues to maintain his innocence.
00:22It's Mirko Ricci. He introduces us to his story, Elisa True Crime, and we'll see you again here with the interview.
00:31Mirko Ricci. Known to all as The Predator.
00:34In the ring he seems destined to become the strongest.
00:38He won the Italian light heavyweight title and the WBA intercontinental title.
00:43He's one of those who, in the box, seem to have a path already written ahead of them.
00:48But outside the ring his life is on a different track.
00:52Arrests, robberies, assaults.
00:55Then comes April 20, 2016.
00:58According to the prosecution, Ricci enters into a terrible situation.
01:02The kidnapping of a 9-year-old boy taken away to force his mother to pay a debt related to the
01:09drug.
01:10The child was later found in a Roman residence and Ricci was arrested.
01:15For the judges it is kidnapping for the purpose of extortion.
01:20The sentence is 11 years and 10 months.
01:24Thank you Elisa and thanks to Mirco Ricci for being here.
01:28So, Mirco, you're currently in semi-liberty, right?
01:34So that means you work outside during the day and then go back to prison in the evening, right?
01:41Yes.
01:42What time does he have to come back?
01:45I come back at 10pm and I'm out at 8am.
01:49And what job does he do at the moment?
01:51Now I work in a butcher's shop.
01:53Where is the property located in Abruzzo?
01:55Yes.
01:56Eh, here it is.
01:57They wrote about her, this one was one of the greatest champions of Italian boxing.
02:04His style, low guard like Cassius Clay, was inimitable.
02:08His speed was something incredible.
02:11A unique boxing class.
02:13Who knows what we would have seen in these years if things had gone differently.
02:19And how did things go instead?
02:22I mean, things went the way they went.
02:26Bad, very bad.
02:27Very bad because currently a sentence of 16 years and 10 months is being heard.
02:32A 16-year sentence?
02:34And 10 months.
02:34How much do you miss?
02:36Now current 5 years and 2 months.
02:39So, now we'll understand better why he finds himself serving such a long prison sentence.
02:46However, let's say right away that due to your circumstances, you are no longer part of the Italian boxing federation.
02:53because he was disqualified.
02:55And what is your sport now?
02:59Now he has recently entered a sport in Italy.
03:02Big Cup FC is still a stage boxing sport, but it is without gloves.
03:10With bare hands?
03:11With bare hands.
03:13And he gets permission from prison to fight?
03:16No, not yet.
03:16I still have to do the first one.
03:18I'm looking, I've started training now.
03:21Does he train in prison?
03:22I train outside in prison.
03:23She said, I hope I can be a deterrent to young athletes from doing the same thing I did.
03:30mistake.
03:31His whole life is a bit of a roller coaster ride, isn't it?
03:36What stage are we at today?
03:37I had the chance to think in there, I made many mistakes, I paid for them personally, but I feel
03:46a different person now.
03:47They wrote about her, a champion in the ring who in everyday life got lost and ended up in
03:53a black hole, from which it is difficult to escape.
03:56He is alone now.
03:57Is he alone?
03:59Well, let's say I had many friends, even famous people.
04:05Then when I entered prison I counted the people, only my family.
04:13I don't know, in the end only the family told me.
04:15Even the entire boxing federation?
04:18They were the first.
04:20To download it?
04:21Yes, I took it, in 2014 I was given a medal for athletic merit, for athletic merit, a bronze.
04:31Then I go into prison and am disconnected, even before hearing the sentences.
04:39Because the federation considered his conduct to be incompatible with the rules of sport and
04:47boxing.
04:47However, we can say that his whole story follows two directions, right?
04:52On one hand, sport and she was the Italian champion and then she also won the intercontinental title
05:00light heavyweights,
05:02among the most important in Europe.
05:04And then let's say the other direction which was, we can say, the crime, right?
05:08made up mostly of assaults, a robbery and then even the main sentence for which she is in prison is the
05:16kidnapping of a child.
05:19Now, before I get into your story, can you tell me how you got into this life of crime?
05:27How did it happen?
05:29Well, it's not that I got into it, I was born into it like that.
05:35I come from a tough neighborhood in Rome and...
05:39Bravetta.
05:40Bravetta Residence.
05:41Now it's no longer there, it's been dismantled...
05:43And tell us what it means to come from there, what is it?
05:48Residence Bravetta which, let's say, was a residence that welcomed people waiting to be assigned a council house,
05:54but it was actually a dormitory, right?
05:58Yes, let's say it was a big hotel.
06:00But I wanted to understand what it means to grow up in a suburb with situations of strong marginalization.
06:08Well, I don't know if there are any good things, maybe as a little kid you see things that...
06:14I mean, at first they scare you, then as the years go by they don't even have an effect on you anymore.
06:19Type?
06:19Maybe you watch a 6-7 year old playing football and see someone throw from the fourth or fifth floor, near you.
06:28Other situations?
06:29I don't know, shootings, stabbings, various.
06:35She grew up in a large family, two sisters, one of whom is a twin, a brother, her father and her mother,
06:42but then, when she was 10 years old, she left home.
06:47Why did she leave?
06:49Ah well, it happens, there's a separation at home, in the family, with my father.
06:55My mother left and I stayed with my father and brother.
07:00What kind of childhood was yours without a mother?
07:03Well, childhood is difficult because you grow up without a mother.
07:06It was difficult.
07:09Let's say I grew up early, already at 14, as if I were 30.
07:18Because he says, try to explain to me, try to make me understand.
07:20Well, maybe you stay at home, look at your brother, my brother maybe has a retarded pathology,
07:30that you stay behind, that you stay close, because your father wasn't there, he goes to work and you stay behind.
07:35She followed her brother who had problems on the autism spectrum.
07:41Yes, yes.
07:42What are your memories of your mother's absence?
07:48Maybe, who knows, you might miss it, who knows, that prepares you, puts you to bed, prepares you
07:54dinner,
07:54one thing that all children can miss is their mother.
07:57Well, that's not a small thing.
07:59Eh, I don't know.
08:00Listen, in a video filmed when she was even in fifth grade,
08:07she said, they made this little film of her, and she said,
08:11I imagine middle school with kids older than me beating me up.
08:16So I grab whatever I find on the ground—stones, sticks, glass bottles—and throw them at his head.
08:21Especially glass bottles.
08:24She had this vision, even as a child.
08:27We can already do it as a kid.
08:28Huh?
08:28Eh, no, well, that was it, yes, because the social context always led me to grow up like that
08:37head that...
08:38That is, she says, she led me to think that everything could be solved a bit with bottled water, a bit.
08:44Yes, good, exactly, with bottled water, plus violence, let's say, come on.
08:47Her father, since she was little, 8-10 years old, took her to play sports in a gym
08:53patent, right?
08:54No, no, no, I'm starting, yes, I'm starting to patent...
08:57Well, when he was little he went to karate, kickboxing, right?
09:00Then he makes the leap, goes to Fiumicino and starts boxing with Luciano Sordini, who, well, in the environment...
09:16No, okay, my father, because he was also a boxer in the past, he was a directing boxer, but he
09:22he did more than anything to get me off the streets.
09:25Did she go to school there?
09:27Yes, I made it up to the second hotel.
09:30Did you do two years of hotel management?
09:31Yes.
09:32Then he left?
09:33Then yes, I left it green.
09:34Are you sorry you didn't study?
09:36Yes, of course, of course.
09:37Would things have gone differently or not?
09:39Yes, there's a B-side ready, right?
09:41Let's hope...
09:41A plan B?
09:42Eh, a plan B, I would have graduated having done something else.
09:48When I started boxing as a minor, she says, I did a lot of stupid things, I was a boy who did a lot of things
09:55trouble on the street.
09:57What nonsense are you telling me?
09:59I used to go dancing and then we always ended up arguing, when you're with friends and you're dancing.
10:05Fights?
10:05Eh, all fights, yes.
10:07Only these?
10:08Yes, fights.
10:09What was your first crime?
10:11Narissa always.
10:13Injury, assault, this was his first crime.
10:17Listen, you had, if I may, an addiction to alcohol.
10:23Yes.
10:24At what age did it start?
10:25A bad addiction to alcohol.
10:27Huh?
10:28Yes, at 15 years old.
10:29So soon?
10:30Yes.
10:32What does ugly mean?
10:33It's bad because I used to be capable of drinking, I went dancing on weekends and I drink all week.
10:39I was capable of drinking five or six bottles of wine and not realizing it.
10:43In one evening at 15?
10:45Yes.
10:46And then what happened?
10:48Well, then what happened...
10:51Maybe I went dancing with a badly spoken word and I found myself...
10:55I found myself making cassotti on the street.
10:58How many years did he carry it with him?
11:00Eh, until I was 23, 23 years old.
11:03Much?
11:04Yes.
11:04And how often did he drink?
11:05When I went dancing, I went dancing, that is, I was unable to stop.
11:10I would drink a little alcohol and then I would always want more.
11:13I couldn't stop myself.
11:14Tell me, was there anyone there who tried to help her, to cure her, because that was an addiction?
11:21Yes, I attended a park management course at Gemelli.
11:25Huh?
11:26At Gemelli Hospital?
11:28Yes.
11:29At what age?
11:30I was 18 years old.
11:31And then all this, let's say this heavy dependence, is parallel to his successes, right?
11:41To his successes in the ring.
11:43How was this possible?
11:45Oh well, it's alcohol.
11:46Alcohol makes you sweat 3-4 times or smartici, it's not that I did...
11:52Okay, but it didn't give her the centering needed for concentration, did it?
11:56No, okay, then...
11:57Were you able to do everything?
11:58No, I was able to win a title, I managed to win the Italian title with 20 days of
12:02preparation.
12:03It didn't take much for me, I was young.
12:06Listen, just alcohol or drugs too?
12:09Look, the drugs I used were exactly cocaine, that too, but I used it...
12:18Maybe a night out to recover from the alcohol.
12:22Ah, as therapy...
12:24Well, but then it was never like that, because you recovered and drank again.
12:27However, as I was saying, despite her disorderly life, she shows great promise as an amateur boxer,
12:36so much so that in 2011, a month before turning 21, she already reached the professionals.
12:42So under the guidance of Luciano Sordini, who he said was an institution, in 2012 he won 5 matches in
12:488 months,
12:49so he wins continuously, but then when he tries to conquer the Italian middle-heavyweight title for the first time,
12:56he is knocked down by the reigning champion, Emanuele Barletta.
13:01And that's already a hard blow for her, isn't it? That defeat.
13:06Why wasn't she prepared to lose?
13:09No, it wasn't a defeat, it was always the alcohol that made me bring out my anger.
13:14So you're saying that after the meeting you drank and that's why it happened?
13:17No, after the meeting, yes, it happened that maybe I drank, I raised my elbow and...
13:22But let's say that not everyone who has a problem with alcohol necessarily becomes violent.
13:29No.
13:29I mean, it was something she had, it wasn't something alcohol did.
13:32Maybe alcohol triggered something she already had or what?
13:36Yeah, okay, I had an argument one night but I was... there was an argument.
13:41No, because there have been complaints, these people have suffered serious injuries, I call it a squabble.
13:46Yes, I argued with him and threw my hands at him.
13:49Well, listen, tell you about all those episodes of aggression, there were many, from that period,
13:58she tells me that, I don't want to ask her what she regrets because she knows that, but what she regrets
14:03more shame?
14:06Well, what I'm most ashamed of is the heaviest rigato I got, the seizure rigato.
14:15a child.
14:15Before I get to that I understand that it is what he is most ashamed of, but there is a
14:20another very bad episode
14:22which involved her on May 19, 2013.
14:25She intervenes in a fight that broke out in a nightclub, a physical fight that broke out in a nightclub
14:31between his ex-girlfriend and another girl and she intervenes instead of calming things down,
14:41knowing what she can do with one hand, right?
14:45He broke this 23-year-old woman's jaw after kicking and punching her.
14:52In the complaint she said she punched me in the face and then she gave me a shoe.
14:56hair
14:56dragging me to the ground. Once I fell, he kicked me in the face and continued hitting me.
15:02like a fury for several minutes.
15:05Do you remember it?
15:05That's what she says though.
15:07Well, let's say, there's also a medical report.
15:09No, then a list with more people blew up.
15:12Sorry, no, but to say it, now, then, since you say what you say, I want to read the medical certificate.
15:16Facial trauma, facial edema, right side fracture, mandibular body extended to the dental arch,
15:23multi-fragmented fracture of the left mandibular angle, avulsion of the lower left molar,
15:30a prognosis of more than 40 days.
15:32So what she says, in short, she doesn't know that what she says was true.
15:36No, what happened was that I argued with her boyfriend, I beat him, a list broke out,
15:48I turn around, there must have been about seven, eight people outside this lithic disco,
15:54and then I find out that I'm being reported.
15:58Okay, let's say, did you attack this girl?
16:02I did an ordinary rite there, I did an ordinary rite, then...
16:07And in fact she was convicted for this...
16:09Yes, but the girl's boyfriend testified on my behalf, he didn't say that I hit the girl.
16:14But you were convicted for this...
16:16Yes, yes, I was convicted, I was not believed.
16:19But it is not a cowardly thing to use a force that you have against someone,
16:26let's say, obviously she can't oppose it in any way, especially a 23-year-old girl.
16:32Yes, but I repeat, I'm telling you my opinion...
16:36She says it wasn't her.
16:37No, a list exploded among ten people, we were there, we were there.
16:42I mean, in the end I got put in the middle because my name was there.
16:45My name, when I was walking around at night, my name...
16:48But she actually said it was her, because she had to say it wasn't...
16:52Huh?
16:52She said she also knows why the girl was arguing with her girlfriend at the time.
16:57Eh, but she was arguing because she didn't want the attention from me, I didn't give her the attention that I
17:01I was with another girl.
17:04I didn't give him any attention, it's a bit of a long story.
17:08But I can tell him that I didn't hit her.
17:13The girl then told investigators that she had to...
17:17Who had to leave the neighborhood because, Ricci says, he is very well known in the area.
17:22I moved somewhere else because I feared for my safety.
17:26Not...
17:27I'm hearing this from her now.
17:31Listen, though, despite the fact that we say because you were being reported in the meantime that these fights, these things were happening.
17:39Why did the federation keep letting her play?
17:43Because obviously it was non-compliant conduct, right?
17:46According to the rules of the Italian Boxing Federation.
17:49Yet he kept fighting.
17:51I don't know that, ask, that's a question you should ask them, I don't know that.
17:56Eh.
17:56Why?
17:58And yet he couldn't change his life, right?
18:00They had fallen and risen, fallen and risen.
18:03But it's not that, it's that I have alcohol addiction problems.
18:06It was alcohol that led me to make mistakes, which I later regretted.
18:13And now with detention I've changed because in there I've cleaned myself up.
18:18Obviously he doesn't touch anything anymore.
18:21No, no, maybe I can drink a guccio of prosiecco but that's it.
18:26Listen, three months after winning the Italian title, in the San Paolo area, in the southern outskirts of Rome, you take to
18:34punching a person on the street for the purpose of robbery.
18:39At that point she ends up under house arrest for about five months for attempted robbery and serious injury.
18:47Was this your first time committing robberies?
18:51Yes, but it wasn't in San Paolo, that was the police station in San Paolo, that happened at the Serpentone, at the
18:55Corviale.
18:56At Corviale?
18:57Yes, under the Corviale buildings.
18:59Under the Corviale buildings, which is another complex suburb.
19:03Here you are.
19:05And how did it go? May I ask?
19:06No, I discussed it with this guy.
19:11But we had a fight, but I didn't rob him, because there's an attempted robbery there.
19:17I mean, he writes attempted when he failed, it's not that...
19:20Eh, but...
19:21Because, let's say, he didn't succeed, right? Because he didn't do it, he tried.
19:27Yes, but...
19:27I mean, he got into a fight, he says I tried to rob him, but...
19:31That one's a bit in another place, because it's still in the process of...
19:35That is, previously it is a course, it has not reached the third degree of judgment on this.
19:40So, let's move on to this, so I guess you can answer me for this.
19:44Okay.
19:45Anyway, during that time she gets...
19:48He goes under house arrest for this episode.
19:52But he gets permission from the judge to leave house arrest to fight, right?
19:56And attend the meeting.
19:58On July 19, 2014, she defends the Italian champion title against Lorenzo Di Giacomo.
20:05He wins again and remains champion of Italy.
20:08But a few hours after the match, while she was driving, two strangers approached her on a scooter and shot her in the leg.
20:18They shot her twice in the leg.
20:22How did the events unfold?
20:28Two hooded men approached and shot me through the marina door.
20:33Where did they get it?
20:35On the right side.
20:36On the right side of the leg?
20:37Yes.
20:38Look, you've always said you didn't know why he was shot, right?
20:42They shot her in the leg.
20:44Obviously it's a little unbelievable that she doesn't know this.
20:47No, I don't know, but...
20:48Can't you say it?
20:51No, I don't know, because when you argue with a lot of people...
20:56Can a hundred people have it in for her?
20:59Yes, they could, but now...
21:02But the strange thing is that they shot her in the leg a few hours after the match in which she won.
21:08May I ask you if this is plausible or not?
21:12Think it was a gambling story?
21:15No, no, no, no.
21:16He's sending American films here, isn't he?
21:19So you know, tell me which is the real film.
21:22But no, I can't tell you anymore that it's a bet because no offer was made to me.
21:26Well, then tell me why they shot her in the leg.
21:28Eh, what do I know, I don't know.
21:30I think someone who didn't bother arguing with me did it...
21:36Okay, but didn't someone like you get informed?
21:39Huh?
21:39Someone like you who comes from a criminal background knows who to get information from and how to find out things and not
21:45did he do it?
21:47No, he never tells you how interested he is.
21:51So she shoots him and he doesn't care?
21:53What's the matter with you? It happened.
21:55So nihilistic.
21:57Huh?
21:58Nihilistic!
21:58That is, he says, okay, listen...
22:00It happened, I'm informing myself, so much so that I inform myself because then what do I do?
22:05Well, from someone like you who lives in a context that comes from an environment, the fact that you don't
22:09He was interested in finding out who shot him and it could have ended badly.
22:13By the way, it wasn't even the first time he was shot because it happened again in 2011.
22:18in the mountain area of ​​EUR.
22:22Eh, they finished it off in the left leg.
22:25Yes, on the left leg.
22:26On the other hand.
22:27How many shots?
22:29Two shots.
22:32Did he report it?
22:33Huh?
22:34Did he report it?
22:35Eh, without who he is, how can he report it?
22:37Well, you still report people you don't know.
22:39Huh?
22:40However, reports are filed against unknown persons.
22:41I don't remember if I did it, the word that I did it against strangers, but I don't remember well.
22:45He didn't know why this time either?
22:47Oh no.
22:50Really, it seems absurd to me, but I really didn't know that.
22:53And this time he didn't care either?
22:58No, but...
22:58No, I was interested, yes, of course.
23:00It was done badly.
23:01There was no...
23:02I've been there too, standing still...
23:05I mean, she's an athlete, a champion, they shot her in the legs, it could have ended her career, it could have ended worse.
23:11I mean, it wasn't a squabble as you call it, was it?
23:15Or not?
23:16No, but it certainly always stemmed from some fight in the street involving fists.
23:21Listen, what kind of circles were you in Rome?
23:24What people...
23:25What groups did he hang out with?
23:28No, okay, I had childhood friends...
23:30Childhood friends from the area and...
23:34But...
23:35Nothing of...
23:35I mean, from a criminal standpoint, obviously, right?
23:42The question didn't come up, I tell you...
23:43She used to hang out with people connected to criminal circles, I imagine, right?
23:50Yes.
23:51Here you are.
23:52Which environment in particular was she referring to?
23:58No, I wasn't referring to any environment.
24:00My crimes have always been brawls and that's it.
24:03Brawls, robberies, kidnappings...
24:05Robbery, but robbery, a robbery that they say I beat this guy and he says I wanted his
24:11money, but it's not, I don't know...
24:14That I wanted to take away from her?
24:16That I wanted to beat him up, he said that I beat him up and wanted to take money from him.
24:20And instead?
24:22I hit him but I took the money, we argued.
24:25He did it.
24:26Was it money he wanted to take from him or something else?
24:28No, no, that's what I'm telling you now.
24:31Look, we'll see later that you also had something to do with drug dealing.
24:37She has never been found guilty of any crime in this regard, or indeed.
24:43But, let's say, you and your mother were somehow also gravitating towards drug dealing, in Balcanuta, when you then...
24:52transferred.
24:55No, this...
24:56She was not recognized, now we will understand why.
24:59I have never sold drugs.
25:02So much so that not...
25:03No, because we have never been recognized as having drugs.
25:06Well, it wasn't recognized, but now we'll understand better why.
25:10However, in 2014 she went to Germany, where she had lost the year before,
25:14and this time he wins a very important title.
25:18And, in the locker room, she says, or two weeks ago I was drunk, imagine if I didn't drink.
25:25Eh.
25:27I want to clarify that I didn't lose, the match was stolen from me.
25:30I won a youth world title.
25:31The year before.
25:33Then I got called back, I did an intercontinental title fight with an undefeated boxer and I won it.
25:37Eh.
25:38I said this because it was the truth.
25:40I drank it and still managed to win the match.
25:44Eh.
25:44But was he proud?
25:46No, no, no, but I said if I hadn't drunk maybe the match would have ended sooner, he was the one who has the
25:51meaning.
25:52Oh, let it end.
25:53Because he ran out of points.
25:54But if you hadn't had this life, this addiction, you ask yourself in your head where you would have ended up?
26:00Well, I can't tell you that.
26:03I can't tell you I would have done that, I would have done...
26:05Then not many things happen in life.
26:07Because she really was considered a phenomenon at the time, right?
26:12They say so, I've never felt like a phenomenon.
26:15Listen, when you win this very important title in Germany, afterwards you have an emotional breakdown, you have a real attack of...
26:23panic, right?
26:24Which he recognizes as such, or rather perhaps doctors recognize them as such.
26:28What had happened?
26:30Because she was used to the tension in competitions.
26:33What had happened to make him collapse emotionally?
26:37I mean, I used to suffer from panic attacks, anxiety, and I get a panic attack after the meeting.
26:47Maybe I was even at...
26:48I was even tired of going on like this, I was almost there...
26:54Could he take it anymore?
26:55Yes.
26:56Of his life?
26:57About what he did?
26:58Yes, because I did...
26:59I know I've made a lot of mistakes, huh?
27:00I know that I've hurt many people too.
27:06And during the years of tension I worked a lot on myself.
27:10Yes, I've worked a lot on myself.
27:13And what did the panic attacks consist of?
27:16Those are ugly, I can't describe them.
27:19When they catch me they're ugly, I can't breathe.
27:23I feel terrible.
27:24I feel bad.
27:25Even now?
27:26Yes, I still have it now.
27:28The last time I was locked up, in fact, I rang the bell and they opened the door for me, they made me cry
27:34during the night, because I had a terrible panic attack.
27:37I was short of breath.
27:38Yes.
27:39Listen, in 2016 you are aiming for the EBU title of the European Union.
27:45To win it, she has to beat a boxer she knows very well, Demschenko.
27:51Yes.
27:51And she declares to Rai Sport that Demschenko is a very powerful boxer, I can't afford to
27:55to go out on dates, otherwise I'd be crazy.
27:59He declares it, but instead, as usual...
28:00Eh, I screwed up, yes.
28:02Here you are.
28:05But, in fact, he loses, obviously.
28:07I lost, yes, I lost by technical head in the tenth round, when I had won all
28:12the shooting.
28:12Eh.
28:14A brawl breaks out in the ring there too.
28:16Eh, but I have nothing to do with it either, it happened underneath.
28:18Look, it's the first time I've heard myself telling you that it has nothing to do with it, because it is
28:22a fight that...
28:23No, I'm not very credible, but...
28:25No, no, because there are some things that, let's say, have been proven to have something to do with her and others,
28:29so no, this had nothing to do with her.
28:32But, here...
28:32Like a wolf calling a wolf, but when he comes, no one believes him.
28:34That was also her last chance in the ring, she didn't know it, but that, let's say...
28:41The last meeting, yes.
28:42It was the last meeting.
28:44If you think about it today...
28:45In fact, we didn't want to end our career like this.
28:47Eh.
28:49Because before I was inclined I had to leave for Miami.
28:53Eh.
28:55There's a schedule, a big match with my manager.
28:59But when she thinks back to that last time she was in the ring, she, I repeat, did not know
29:04who was his boxing god.
29:06What do you think?
29:07Oh, so much melancholy.
29:09And let's say that it's his last chance, from all points of view, because a
29:14month later, we are in 2016, she is arrested on charges of kidnapping a child
29:20for the purpose of extortion.
29:21It's an ugly story, but a very complex story, which I try to reconstruct according to
29:28the sentences, according to the final sentence.
29:32Meanwhile, let's say, it happens between 20 and 22 April 2016 in the residence of Val Cannuta,
29:38which is also a former residential center in North-West Rome, right?
29:44And at the center of this story is this 9 year old boy, his mother Tiziana Cataldi,
29:50there's her, there's her mother Palma Condemi, her sister Francesca Ricci and there's her aunt
29:57of the child, Sonia Cataldi.
29:59You all live in the same residence, I think, right?
30:03Here you are.
30:03Tiziana Cataldi, as she tells it, keeps for herself and her mother some quantities
30:12of pre-packaged drugs, which he then delivers when you decide to sell them.
30:19His mother realizes at a certain point that there is a shortage of 50 quantifiable doses, which
30:25he himself quantified it at 5,000 euros and these doses had either disappeared or, as he says
30:32she, had been replaced with crushed medicines, as is often done.
30:39At that point her mother calls Mirko, who arrives, goes to Tiziana and demands the return
30:46of the sum, hitting her with punches in the face, head and chest.
30:54I continue with the reconstruction.
30:58In the following hours the woman would like to go away with her son, she says she is trying to recover
31:05the sum, she wants to take her 9-year-old son away with her, but in her house you enter
31:10you and your sister Francesca, you take the child away as a guarantee of the return
31:16of the debt.
31:18From that moment on, the child, who is also called Mirko, will stay away from his mother for
31:24about 48 hours and will sleep in different houses.
31:28When Tiziana, the mother, after 24 hours realizes that she manages to put together 2,000 euros
31:34and not 5,000, she goes to the police station and while she is at the police station she calls Tiziana, Tiziana puts
31:43on speakerphone and you can hear her saying you're pissing me off, hurry up.
31:49At that point, after further wiretaps, the police identified the apartment where he was located.
31:54the child is at his aunt's house and at dawn a raid is carried out.
31:59The child is released, who obviously cries, looks for the mother, as soon as he is found and she comes
32:06arrested.
32:08This is the story as reconstructed in the sentence, both on appeal and final.
32:19This is the reconstruction, does it match yours?
32:22Reconstruction, yes.
32:25So, let's start from the assumption, let's say, that he then triggered the crime.
32:31Did this Tiziana keep some doses of cocaine for herself and her mother?
32:37No, they have never been found, she says, but these doses...
32:40So, the crime of... she was convicted of kidnapping, extortion and injury
32:46with respect to this matter, but not for possession and trafficking of drugs, because it is not
32:52the drugs were found.
32:54Yes.
32:54Well, but then, let's say, the magistrates are quite clear on this in their ruling,
33:01I mean... also because there are Tiziana's statements, right?
33:06Yes, but the drugs... she says that to me... she sold the drugs for me, I gave them to her
33:12some money to my mother, 5,000 euros that she had asked me for, and then I found myself in the middle
33:17this mess is absurd, because I haven't already paid the magistrates in the first instance
33:21for tonight what had happened.
33:23It lasted... the first degree lasted me a year.
33:25She was under first degree for the kidnapping...
33:27Yes, he was kidnapped.
33:29But it was immediately overturned, because the child had initially given conflicting versions,
33:34but anyway, then the magistrates acknowledged that the kidnapping had actually taken place,
33:38also because she and her family, since it involved her mother and her sister,
33:43then you and your mother were sentenced, you took this child who was not
33:50kept in conditions, it wasn't tied up, it wasn't... but you still stole it
33:55to the mother for 48 hours, yes, because the mother did not see him again for 48 hours and she had to
34:00the police intervene for the freed man.
34:03But it is the mother who has moved away from the place where she lived.
34:06No, she...
34:07She went away saying... she went away saying that since I gave the money to my mother,
34:11my mother...
34:12She says this thing, the defense line is that she gave the money to her mother to make her come
34:16minus the extortion, but really, let's say...
34:19To eliminate extortion.
34:20No, I'm telling you how things happened, I'm telling you how things happened.
34:23She wants, let's say, the defensive line...
34:25Then I realized that I was part of this story, because I had put in the 5 thousand
34:29I wasn't in the middle of this mess.
34:31The defense line is to make this drug debt look like a loan to
34:37his mother.
34:37There have been some very ugly and violent incidents so far, haven't there?
34:40Of fights, etc.
34:42Here he raises the stakes, in the sense that taking away a drug debt and keeping a child for
34:4848 hours, then kept, passed from hand to hand by the mother, the sister, the aunt, for
34:5548 hours, is it something of unprecedented violence?
35:00It didn't go that way.
35:01How did it go?
35:02It is not so.
35:02I repeat, my mother asked me for 5 thousand euros, I gave the 5 thousand euros to my mother.
35:07I then gave him...
35:09Obviously I didn't take my money anymore, I called to get my money back.
35:14I mean, I never had a child...
35:16But if she gave them to her mother, what does asking Tiziana have to do with it?
35:19Because my mother had given them to her.
35:21I had to take the money from him in some way.
35:22Why would he give it to her?
35:23I had to take him.
35:24I don't know that.
35:25I don't know why they closed us down, I was closed down, I was closed down and I paid
35:29I used my own skin, I made a mistake.
35:32Then I read them.
35:34This is Tiziana Cataldi, the child's mother.
35:37I keep the doses for them, which on average are delivered to me every 2-3 weeks.
35:43This is in the complaint.
35:44The drug is delivered to me by Palma, who is his mother, already cut into doses
35:50and after putting it in a sock I take everything to the second floor of an apartment
35:56where I hide it under the mattress.
35:58Every time they, and by them I mean Palma and her son Mirko, need
36:03of doses to be delivered to the buyers, they call me and tell me the number of doses of which
36:09they need.
36:11What a joke.
36:12I repeat, it's always his version.
36:14I have already been questioned about these facts, I have already been questioned.
36:18I was arrested, deprived, convicted on appeal and confirmed by the Supreme Court.
36:23Now out of three judges, two have convicted me.
36:27They say that's how it went and I have to...
36:32They also say the Court of Appeal that the hypothesis of a loan is unlikely because
36:37this girl didn't work, she was in a very difficult economic situation, nobody would have helped her
36:42I lent 5,000 euros without the possibility...
36:45But in fact I didn't lend Tiziana the 5,000 euros to the victim, I gave them to my
36:50mother, I gave him the 5,000 euros in my blood.
36:53Then if she had come to ask me for the 5,000 euros, she certainly wouldn't have given it to her.
36:58This time you're going to prison with a very serious charge, right?
37:02And with the prospect of so many years ahead, was he aware this time that everything had changed?
37:09No, I wasn't aware of it because I always said I was innocent and then it went the way it went.
37:22Have you ever thought about apologizing to the mother of this child, to the child?
37:28Yes, I'm sorry for what happened, I'm sorry, but I still feel sorry for the fact that
37:35I went up and took the child, I am completely unaware of these things.
37:39There is also a wiretap in which you can hear someone saying if you don't bring us the money we will do it
37:44like a meatloaf?
37:46No, that was my mother's thing.
37:52Okay, but you understand, in the sense that it is useless, even to deny the facts, because unfortunately
37:58They found the child, the child didn't even have a change of clothes.
38:02I paid, he didn't have change.
38:04He didn't even have change, it was all for the money.
38:06The child had the phone, he didn't have change, there was that phone at home,
38:09there was a phone, there was a phone with a SIM card.
38:14I'll read you part of the Court of Appeal's ruling, even without chains, without a
38:19closed door, without armed supervision, a child can be deprived of liberty
38:24if he is kept away from his family environment and placed in a dynamic of blackmail.
38:30For the second degree judges, the subtraction of the minor from the mother, combined with the request
38:35of money to threats, makes kidnapping for extortion purposes effective.
38:39This, in short, to conclude.
38:42Look, the fact that you are involved in such a serious crime, right together with your
38:47mother, what does it mean?
38:50What did it mean to you?
38:52Well, it was a...
38:55I've destroyed my whole life, because ten years, I spent more than ten years
39:00locked inside prison, that is, you have to say a wasted life.
39:04I was always used to being a free spirit, I trained, I traveled.
39:09But prison is undoubtedly a drama, that is...
39:12It was a drama, yes, it certainly was a drama.
39:14I ruined my life, my father's life, my brother's life, the whole family that...
39:20of everyone, then also the life of the victim, maybe of the victims who then died
39:25subtracted in the middle of this context.
39:28It happened, though.
39:29Now I am a person of...
39:30I am a person of...
39:31Yes I changed.
39:32I did prison and I changed.
39:34Yes, yes, it is paying, it is undoubtedly paying.
39:36If I became a father.
39:37Of course, and now we're getting there, but in fact undoubtedly, let's say, this is part of an ugly past.
39:44For this reason, let's say, admitting certain things also really helps to make people understand that
39:49one actually did a passerby.
39:52Listen, can I ask you what your relationship with your mother is today?
39:56A relationship with my mother made us...
40:01I mean, I got to know her more in prison, let's say, I had interviews with her.
40:05A relationship like, let's say, we have as a mother.
40:10More than a mother, a friendship.
40:13She's my mother too, but...
40:15What am I supposed to do, huh?
40:18What was your life like in prison?
40:20What impact did prison have on you?
40:22Look, I hate you from me prison.
40:25It seems bad to say it, strange to say it.
40:28For me, prison also served me well.
40:32Tell me how.
40:33It was useful to me because...
40:35I mean, he won't let me talk about my son because...
40:37I'm getting there now, I'm getting there.
40:39And he introduced me to my son.
40:41Why her, why her...
40:43The one who was his girlfriend and later became his wife in prison, Monica...
40:47Yes.
40:48Has she always been close to him?
40:49Always.
40:50I have never skipped an interview.
40:52And Monica, she...
40:53Did you get married to Monica in prison?
40:55I got married in Belletri on February 4, 2019.
41:00And what ritual was it?
41:01How did it go?
41:03I mean, it wasn't...
41:05It wasn't...
41:06I mean, it was nice because we made an oath to each other.
41:08That was true for us.
41:09It wasn't the...
41:10Because we know there couldn't have been a party or anything.
41:14May I ask you what your oath was?
41:17Oh well, love...
41:18Love forever.
41:20When the usual...
41:21It's the same oath he takes in church.
41:23It's just this, love forever.
41:26I mean, the speech was...
41:28Love forever.
41:28No, I made the promise to my wife.
41:32The usual promise that is made...
41:36No, if he wanted to tell me, it would have been nice too...
41:38If he wanted to tell me, if he doesn't want to tell me...
41:40No, how did you want to tell me?
41:41Oh, that's a nice thing.
41:43It was also to make him say something nice.
41:45Understood?
41:45After all the ideals.
41:46The real marriage, I'm looking for, I should do...
41:50Coming soon, to church.
41:51Oh yeah?
41:52Yes.
41:53Do you want to reconfirm your promises?
41:56No, I want...
41:56Since I am Catholic, I also want to get married in church.
41:59Ah.
42:00How are you Catholic?
42:02I mean, I like getting married in church.
42:05I believe in the church.
42:06Eh, but I say, is it Catholic in what way?
42:09In what sense?
42:10What are the values ​​of Catholicism that you embrace, that you like?
42:14What do you share?
42:15Well, I believe in God, I trust in Jesus, I know so, I prayed, in prison I started praying.
42:23Ah, did he discover faith in prison?
42:25Yes, in prison.
42:26Ah.
42:27Listen, your son was born on March 16, 2021.
42:31Yes.
42:32To get it, you resorted to artificial insemination and it was not a trivial process.
42:39because she was in prison, so what kind of father is she?
42:44Well, I've been living with my son for five months now.
42:53Because she is in semi-liberty.
42:55I'm on semi-liberty, I take licenses, it's difficult to be a father, it's difficult
43:01but it's nice, in my opinion being a parent is demanding but it's a beautiful thing.
43:08And what kind of father is he?
43:10Well, let's say remorseful, affectionate, very affectionate.
43:14How old is he?
43:15Now five years.
43:17Listen, when your son grows up, how will he explain his previous life?
43:23Eh, I always wonder this.
43:25I will find, instead, I will wait for it to grow up quite a bit and I hope to sit down and tell it to him
43:33all the mistakes I've made, and I've made so many.
43:36What if your son said to you, Dad, why did you make these mistakes?
43:42How would you answer him?
43:44Where do these mistakes come from?
43:46Eh, this...
43:47I think that Arcol and drugs led me to make many mistakes.
43:55But today I am a clean person and I tell him that the path I took, which was
44:00It was hard too, it was very hard, I don't say it like that, but...
44:04It was hard to get rid of the Arcol, of all the mistakes I made.
44:10What was the hardest moment?
44:12Well, the hardest time is when you're locked up...
44:15stay closed and...
44:18and you begin to speak with your conscience.
44:21And what...
44:21And when he spoke to his conscience, what did he say?
44:26What did you say to each other?
44:27Eh, I said that...
44:29What did I say, that all the bullshit I've done, where did it lead me?
44:34In the end they brought me to nothing.
44:37They led me to lose, as a youth, within four walls.
44:42Because when you enter at 25 and then leave at 36,
44:46are you saying what happened?
44:48How did you experience the birth of your son?
44:51I saw my son being born behind the iPhone.
44:55On video call?
44:56On video call.
44:57Eh.
44:58I saw him being born on a video call, again...
45:01I didn't really understand that I was a dad, then when he brought him to me...
45:05How did it feel the first time you held him in your arms?
45:07Eh, I was scared.
45:10Listen, did you also get a pizza-making diploma in prison?
45:13To make pizzas?
45:15Yes.
45:16And now when he comes out, what will he do?
45:19No, now I'm at home too, I went home every now and then I make pizza for my wife.
45:23Eh, good.
45:24I learned to cook in prison.
45:26That is, I, in my misfortune, ended up in the Chiedi prison, a smaller prison.
45:33And there I truly saw the social rehabilitation of prisoners.
45:40Are you afraid of going out and falling back?
45:44But I'm scared, no.
45:46But let's say that when you are detained, you are not seen well in the eyes of society.
45:57But we're here, I'm here, I'm trying to get back into the game and...
46:01Do you miss boxing?
46:03Very, very much.
46:04Yes?
46:04Yes.
46:05Did he understand what is good and what is evil?
46:07Sure, sure.
46:08I have experienced evil first hand.
46:09Hell, by the way, really.
46:11Listen, last question.
46:14What is the day in your life that you would change?
46:17If you could change just one day of your life, which day would you change?
46:22Eh, how can I tell you?
46:27Oh me, I'm stuck.
46:29Well, I would have done...
46:31That is, I had been offered to go and fight abroad, in Germany.
46:38Eh.
46:39Maybe, going back...
46:41He would have gone.
46:42Yes, but on the other hand, no, because now I have a child and I'm happy to have met him,
46:48of having seen my son.
46:50I mean, she says, I would have lived another life, I wouldn't have gotten into trouble,
46:54but instead, staying here, with everything that happened, my son was born.
46:59Yes.
47:00Thanks Mirko, and good luck.
47:02Oh, thank you.
47:03How I don't want to tell you, you believe.
47:04Yes, stop...
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