Uno sguardo drammatico sulla notte della Repubblica, Mixer ripropone il faccia a faccia di Giovanni Minoli, Valerio Fioravanti e Francesca Mambro, leader dei Nuclei Armati Rivoluzionari, la formazione di estrema destra che tra la fine degli anni Settanta e l'inizio degli anni Ottanta fu seconda, per numero di omicidi, solo alle Brigate Rosse. In studio con Minoli, Mario Fioravanti, il padre di Valerio: il dramma di un padre, lo sgomento di una generazione che ha visto i propri figli abbracciare la lotta armata seminando il selciato di morti. Una testimonianza per riflettere e per non dimenticare.
#NAR #Crime #TrueCrime #Delitti #Misteri #Killer #SerialKiller #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Mistero #Delitto #Documentari #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DivinumCrime
#NAR #Crime #TrueCrime #Delitti #Misteri #Killer #SerialKiller #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Mistero #Delitto #Documentari #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DivinumCrime
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TVTrascrizione
00:27This evening on Mixer,
00:29behind the scenes of a masterpiece,
00:31Steven Spielberg and the 7DT.
00:36Today we tell the story of Valerio Fioramanti and Francesca Mambro,
00:41the two leaders of the black terrorism of the NAR,
00:43the revolutionary armed nuclei.
01:00So, Mr. Fioramanti, are you really not sorry for anything?
01:06I don't like the word repentant because it doesn't make much sense,
01:10There are many things I don't like,
01:11many things that I certainly did wrong.
01:13So, let's put it this way,
01:14If you could go back, would you do exactly what you did?
01:18This is a question I don't like,
01:19there is no going back,
01:21Generally speaking I would say yes for a very simple reason,
01:25if I went back in the exact same conditions,
01:28if the same things happened,
01:29I would probably have the same reactions,
01:30but this is obvious,
01:31in short, if the time machine were extremely faithful,
01:33I think few things would change.
01:34Go back 30 years,
01:36to see things with different eyes than when I was 15,
01:39things would definitely change.
01:41The images you have seen tell the story
01:45of the life of Giuseppe Valerio Fioravanti,
01:48called Giusva,
01:48from child prodigy of television drama
01:52The Benvenuti Family, which you have seen,
01:54leader of the black and NAR versions,
01:56he was a key defendant in the Bologna massacre trial
02:00and the disturbing journey traveled by a boy,
02:04as we said, next door.
02:07I was a difficult son, but basically a good one,
02:11as a son, in the sense that my relationships with my parents
02:13they have always been extremely correct,
02:14extremely sincere.
02:16Maybe I created a lot of problems because I always talked to them
02:18of anything, I'm not one of those who have
02:20hidden things, they knew almost everything that was coming.
02:23But she believes that the education received at home
02:24contributed to his political choices or not?
02:31I don't know, I think this is inevitable,
02:34If you asked any psychoanalyst, they would tell you it's obvious.
02:37I think so, and paradoxically in a good way.
02:39I had a great relationship with my family,
02:41conflicted, especially with my father,
02:43in the sense that we didn't get along,
02:44but it's also true that I could talk to them about any topic.
02:47Mario Fioravanti, Giusva's father,
02:49so Mr. Fioravanti, how much, if and how much,
02:52Do you feel responsible for your son's political choices?
02:55Ah, I don't feel responsible at all for political choices.
02:58Not at all, absolutely not.
02:59My son and I tried to teach honesty and fairness.
03:03and not the deception, the trickery, the fiddling according to convenience.
03:11Always loyalty.
03:12Look, Giusva said that you two talked about everything but didn't get along.
03:16So, what exactly did you disagree with the most?
03:21But we disagreed at the beginning when he started to do, let's say, politics
03:26and then I didn't agree with this at all.
03:28Ah, that was the basic point of your disagreement?
03:30Yes, the basic point, otherwise there was nothing.
03:32No, because her son said that she is unpleasant because she is self-centered and presumptuous.
03:38Well, but why such a harsh judgment?
03:41But he almost always says this.
03:42Oh yeah?
03:43Because I oppose it.
03:44Ah.
03:44I oppose him on those things that I believe are not excessively fair and correct.
03:49So is that where this judgment comes from?
03:51Yes, but I think this judgment arises, this conflict exists between all sons and all fathers.
03:56The years pass, the political climate has changed, with '77 they renew themselves and become increasingly tougher
04:02the clashes between right-wing and left-wing youth.
04:26Banqua's companion was from FIGICI, Ladino's homework was passed to me by a girl from workers' autonomy,
04:32there wasn't this hate problem at all.
04:34The absurd thing was precisely this, in short, that in the end we were together in class,
04:38We loved each other, we passed on homework, we teased each other.
04:40The hatred was perhaps more for the good schoolmates, for the nerds, I remember.
04:47that there was a friend who went to mass too often, in my opinion the hatred was from us extremists,
04:53right and left, against the norm.
04:55That then in the evening we would meet and have a fight, that's fine,
05:00Boys...
05:00A fight that quickly turned into...
05:01Which then became beaten, beaten, stabbed, shot,
05:04the burst is something that has grown over the years.
05:07Here, Mr. Fioravanti, in all this time, while your son was passing by, as we said,
05:11as he himself said, from the fistfights to the machine gun fire, where was she?
05:16Where was he? At home.
05:18Was he at home but didn't notice anything?
05:20I noticed everything, only, as I repeat, he never listened to me.
05:26Yet your son says you talked about everything.
05:30What were you talking about? Did he tell you these things?
05:33No, he told them to me, no, he didn't tell them to me, I saw them, I understood them, I sensed them.
05:39and of course I opposed them, right? I'm the father who always told him
05:43But what do you want to do? This is a road that leads nowhere.
05:47In Italy no revolution can be made.
05:49And so you were talking about that too?
05:51Sure, sure.
05:52No, but did he talk to him about his actions?
05:54No, no, not of his actions.
05:56In the political mentality it is not even true that it started in a political key
06:01because it started to go to press on my little brother.
06:03In short, I was the older brother who got into the car with my mom in the evening.
06:07and went to look for him to see if something had happened to him.
06:09That's how it was born.
06:12Then came the clashes, but I always defined the clash as a somewhat intragic way of the ball.
06:18But can one almost by chance find oneself in such an absolute, such a radical mechanism?
06:25Of course, if someone really has a calling to be an angel, they probably won't fall for it.
06:29However, I think that a large part of it is due to chance.
06:32This yes.
06:34Well, what he says is terrible.
06:36No, if one does not hide behind this and does not consider it an excuse or a mitigating factor,
06:41no, I think that chance has a great weight in all of us, in all human beings.
06:45My case led me in that direction and this does not exempt me from certain responsibility.
06:49I don't consider it an excuse or a mitigating factor.
06:52It's a coincidence.
06:53If my brother didn't make that choice or if, as my sister said, instead of being in Rome we were
06:57in Florence or Naples, absolutely nothing happened.
07:00Mr. Fioravanti, is it possible that all this really happened just by chance?
07:05Do you believe what your son says?
07:06Yes, yes.
07:08The case.
07:09Let's see what is meant by chance.
07:11At a certain moment, the episode of H. Larenzia.
07:14That was crucial.
07:16This whole thing where kids like this are killed.
07:17No mechanism has been triggered.
07:18Oh, sure.
07:19Look, but do you agree that if you had lived in Naples or Florence nothing would have happened?
07:24Yes.
07:25Have you ever thought about it?
07:26I thought about it because I knew the climate in Rome at that time.
07:31So the motivations were ultimately very tenuous?
07:33The reasons for these...
07:34They weren't that unstable.
07:36No, if just being in another city was enough to not...
07:39It would have been enough to be in another city where what happened in Rome didn't happen.
07:43Well, but why do you think your son became an extremist, regardless of everything?
07:49Have you ever wondered?
07:51Well, I may have wondered that, and I probably never found a logical explanation.
07:56Undoubtedly his temperament, even his intelligence, in seeing certain facts
08:03which in his opinion were not right and were not good, led him to oppose them, to oppose them
08:09in all ways, with a fistfight, then with a pistol, then with a machine gun and then...
08:14With the dead.
08:15Yes, even with the dead, with a supposed revolution, with an attempt to make a revolution
08:20to change things, right?
08:22This is the point, we need to change these things.
08:25However, it is precisely through political activity, in the youth sections of the MSI, that Fioravanti
08:31he meets Francesca Mambro, the woman of his life, with whom he will share the years of his life
08:36terror and then the years of detention, of prison.
08:41But my wife is noisier than me, she gets more noticed perhaps, she screams, she gets angry
08:45more easily.
09:22When did you meet her husband, Fioravanti's woman?
09:25So, I met him when I was 16.
09:28In what context?
09:30In a context of kids, our age, in a section, I remember.
09:38But was it hit immediately or was it a slow thing?
09:41No, I was immediately struck, I looked myself in the eyes.
09:44Immediately?
09:45Yes, love at first sight.
09:47Absolutely.
09:48Then we loved each other from a distance.
09:50And did she realize she loved him right away?
09:53Or not?
09:53Well, it was a huge crush, I got it right away.
09:57I met her by arguing with her, making fun of her, going back a bit to the previous question,
10:04because I publicly argued that she should commit suicide to be consistent with her ideas,
10:10because according to his ideas he could not live among the fascists,
10:14This contradiction is so serious that the only way you can resolve it is to commit suicide.
10:20Why couldn't he live?
10:21Because she is not a fascist, she has nothing to do with fascists,
10:24his ideas are too clean, too modern to fit into the environment he was in.
10:33And it's paradoxically the same reason why she actually noticed me,
10:37because he had noticed that within the discussions I too was being attacked for the same reason,
10:41only that at the time we hadn't noticed our similarity and we were getting along a little.
10:46But if you and your husband had to define it, how would we define it?
10:50They give a definition with three adjectives, I don't know, that is, a synthetic definition.
10:55I think he is one of the most sensitive people I have met.
10:58And this is the thing that struck you most about her right away?
11:04I don't know, I don't know, because I saw it the first time and it struck me immediately from the
11:09first time
11:09without even knowing, without knowing who he was, without even having spoken.
11:13It's probably a certain attitude, a certain presence, a certain ability to be with men.
11:20in an environment where women usually stay in a corner.
11:23In short, his being there among the others without feeling inferior, without feeling in some way
11:30Vassal of No One struck me immediately, since she was 16, the first time I saw her.
11:35Well, the Saturday night brawl has now turned into something more.
11:39The level of conflict, as they said then, is about to rise.
11:43The first dead begin to fall in the streets and then neither the knife nor the stick is enough.
11:51I do not know.
11:54I don't know because to find out I would have to go and look, to do a rather meager job,
12:01that is, go and look at the ballistic reports.
12:02I understand, but then the first time you think you killed.
12:06So as I was telling you, I don't know and in any case I won't tell you.
12:09Why?
12:10Because in my opinion the responsibility lies with those who medially pulled the trigger
12:15and those around him are exactly the same, there is no difference.
12:22In fact, perhaps I feel even more responsible than those who were there at that moment and physically killed.
12:32And when did he kill him?
12:33Because this is something that makes me think, it's a deep reflection that I made between
12:40'other.
12:40In the sense that unlike the others, I was bigger, I was older, even though I was 20 years old.
12:47Unlike the 7 and 18 year olds, I was older.
12:50And the responsibility for my experience, for my way of dealing with difficult situations.
12:59It leads me to consider myself even more responsible, or at least equally responsible, as those who physically killed.
13:08So this is one thing...
13:10Here, but the first time you remember then yes.
13:13No, I'll tell him.
13:15Because as I was telling you, this one is a false problem.
13:19it's something you want... it's hypocritical, it's frighteningly hypocritical.
13:24It's a question.
13:25Yes, but as I was telling you, I consider it... I could give a hypocritical answer, so to avoid that...
13:31I would like a real answer.
13:33The real answer is that I just don't know.
13:36I might have done it, it happened, but the responsibilities are...
13:42But let's put it this way, she says the responsibilities are identical.
13:45Yes, yes, they are identical.
13:46This from a general point of view.
13:48In fact, perhaps they are greater for those who are...
13:50Agreed, but from the standpoint of individual psychological experience, I don't think this is true.
13:57It's a choice.
13:58No, the moment, the moment, I think it's different.
14:01But the moment...
14:04I don't think the moment is so decisive, perhaps the decision is even more decisive, deciding, what you have to do
14:16to do, how you have to do it and when you are going to do it.
14:19It's even more painful there, perhaps.
14:23The first time it happened to me, it happened in a very simple and easily motivating situation.
14:32Three of them had just died, so to speak, the comrades, as they were called in those days, those from Accalarenzia.
14:40Two had been killed by the so-called red patrol car and another by a Carabinieri captain.
14:47And so a few days later came the umpteenth anniversary of the death of Michi Smantagas, who was another dear one of ours.
14:55Friend.
14:56And then we organized a reprisal, a retaliatory expedition, based on the information of a friend of ours who was in prison
15:04he sent word that he had definitely identified
15:07who could be responsible for the last two deaths, which is a killer who has been around for 17 years.
15:13And we, in good faith, in the belief that this boy's information was certain, set out to strike.
15:20'the environment from where he told us this latest day had started.
15:23That is, in what environment?
15:24She told us that it had started from a collective in San Giovanni Posco, a squatted house, sent to retail, there c
15:30'is the collective that organized this story.
15:32And then you know, was any one okay?
15:33You know how to go in front of the collective, on the anniversary of Michi Smantagas, we take two of those who are
15:38here, they killed two of ours and we take two of them.
15:40The action itself seemed easy because of the great anger we carried inside us.
15:45It was actually the beginning of my, I don't want to call it drama because it's an overused word in these days
15:53terms, of a personal story of mine, of an impression that I received from that first time,
15:59of an anger that I felt for the first time because it is true that we found two boys and it is
16:04It's true that we shot him, it's true that I killed one, but a double feeling went off in me
16:10spring.
16:12The feeling is immediately that you have made a mistake, for a very simple reason, this is a thing of
16:16which I have only spoken to very few people.
16:20The moment I pointed the gun at one of these two guys, I saw in his face, it's
16:25It lasted a second because immediately after I had to pull the trigger,
16:27there was a risk that he was also armed, I was there to do something against a group that used
16:32the weapons.
16:33And they accept it in his eyes and did you see?
16:35And in that second I saw the surprise, I didn't see, I was thinking about it, if someone had come in front of me
16:40if he shot me he wouldn't have seen the surprise,
16:42because we who are in this business have a different reaction, if someone threatens you you have a response, you have a
16:50perhaps a look of hatred,
16:51you have a look on the edge of fear, you have a look of attempted reaction, one who instead has that moment
16:56by surprise,
16:57there at that moment I understood that this was innocent, he was someone who was certainly a comrade,
17:02which surely left you with the impression that it had nothing to do with it.
17:07That day, it was February 28, 1978, that boy was called Roberto Scialabba, he is Giusva's first victim
17:16Fioravanti,
17:17Meanwhile his group joins together, the NAR, the revolutionary armed nuclei, one of the thousand acronyms of terror engaged in
17:24in a war
17:25without borders or truce. The NAR group is responsible for robberies, assaults, insurrections, armed gangs, but also for
17:35murders,
17:36many murders, in their 4 years of fire the NAR are attributed to a total of almost 30 victims.
17:44She said in an interview, there are many rational answers why you shoot and why you let yourself be shot.
17:51on me,
17:51What are these rational reasons?
17:56A great deal of indecision, probably, from what I remember of those moments…
18:02But are you talking about rational reasons?
18:04There are rational reasons, all of which are valid, but none of them in and of themselves is exhaustive.
18:11There are many reasons that coincide, it could be your generational anger, it could be the desire to…
18:20From generational anger to shooting, in short, finding the rationale...
18:25But the main reason is probably ours not to abstain from a fight that we see underway,
18:31which others had started and which it seemed to us was ultimately somehow being supported,
18:36We had two perspectives, either doing nothing or participating, doing nothing seemed to us…
18:42And the only way to participate was to kill?
18:44Back then, probably in '77, yes…
18:47But ideology wasn't important, it wasn't fundamental…
18:50I mean, what was important?
18:51What was fundamental was the energy, my energy, my husband's energy, the energy of the group,
18:57the energy that made us stronger than other groups, made us stronger than the Brigade for example
19:05Red,
19:05at the forefront of group formation, friendships, and emotional relationships...
19:12Great, but to do what?
19:15To be ourselves, to be ourselves…
19:19But to be yourselves, did you have to go out into the streets and kill whoever you met?
19:23But let's say that there was an insurrection of individuals, rather than a revolution,
19:27in fact, none of us believed in the revolution, so we never asked ourselves this question of the revolution,
19:34It was an insurrection of individuals towards an alienated ideal…
19:37But there was also some of it, I imagine…
19:40So yes, then…
19:41If one fights journalists…
19:42She remembers, by bad guys I mean all those journalists and all those people
19:47who said that the enemy were the fascists, that the enemy were 16-year-old kids,
19:5417 years old, who died only because they were…
19:57But don't you think it's a bit stupid to believe all this?
20:01So if I think you will remember, the slogan killing a fascist is not a crime,
20:07This slogan was also adopted by many intellectuals, I remember it well.
20:11Look, did you really think at any point you thought you were going to win, win what?
20:16No, I never thought I would win, the problem is your strictly personal battle,
20:23and this is another topic, it's a battle against your demons, against the two fears,
20:29the two weaknesses, this is another topic, but winning a revolution, a political struggle
20:33no one ever thought of it.
20:35And so in order not to win anything there was this willingness to kill…
20:42And getting killed, that's the strangest thing.
20:44Yes, but also to kill.
20:45Yes.
20:46Regarding the choice of objectives, in a memoir you wrote:
20:51they were in contrast with Valerio's and my own concept of efficiency,
20:55which we jokingly called sentimental,
21:00according to which every action had to be evaluated morally as well.
21:05Yes, that's true.
21:06This means that her husband was then a cold, determined killer,
21:11in short, without moral evaluation.
21:13No, but to be determined…
21:14If we can talk about this.
21:15To be determined we were all very determined.
21:18and this has…
21:19Here, but morally, what does morally mean?
21:23Morally determined?
21:24Exactly in this context.
21:26If she thinks that in two years we have committed…
21:28That is, the efficiency vision is the morally significant one.
21:33Efficiency?
21:34The result is deaths.
21:35Explain it to me, I want to understand it well.
21:37Being efficient then was a matter of difference from other groups,
21:42in the sense that the other groups were chatting and getting nothing done.
21:45So the fact that we, instead of chatting…
21:47And morally significantly…
21:49We were able to do things that could be…
21:52This is efficiency.
21:53But it wasn't just what she says, killing...
21:56No, even robberies, etc.
21:58We did some things, one of which I think is very important,
22:02the fact of not shooting at comrades anymore.
22:05I think we should be recognized for this, the fact that it's over, that it's concluded.
22:11a time when we decided we shouldn't shoot at each other anymore
22:16with the kids of our generation.
22:20What are the Bordeaux values ​​you believe in?
22:23The most abstract, the strangest ones, in a market economy that is however as moderate as possible,
22:29in a civil coexistence, in a democracy that must be as open as possible,
22:34in a death penalty that must not exist, in religion that must not be invasive.
22:37It was believed before too.
22:38I have always believed in it and have remained extremely consistent.
22:41And that's what he was shooting for?
22:42But I shot at those who looked to me like the ones who were shooting at my friends.
22:48And here we are again, but that was the reason.
22:50And above all I shot…
22:51And this is our mistake, something we should be ashamed of, we didn't finish the previous discussion.
22:56We shot to demonstrate, to practically respond to a cliché.
23:02And this is the extremely shameful thing, we should be ashamed.
23:05We have fallen into the trap of a cliché.
23:07We shot, we made a mess of our lives and the lives of others
23:11to demonstrate that the fascists were not those we were talking about.
23:14To show that they had the courage.
23:17When they had anger inside, they went out on the sidewalks and shot with their faces open.
23:21Looking back today, do you think there would be other ways for you to express your protest, or not?
23:29Probably yes. I don't think there were anyone else then.
23:31But are you the opposite of the problem?
23:33That is, there was a sense of violence…
23:34However, I don't want to play the victim of an absolute situation.
23:37No, I ask questions.
23:38I'm simply saying that there was violence back then…
23:42We grew up in a climate of violence…
23:43But there were also many people who didn't shoot.
23:46The fact that he didn't shoot was still involved, though.
23:51She was involved and complicit.
23:53Just because he didn't shoot this doesn't mean he doesn't bear responsibility.
23:55So in her opinion the only way to be against was to be willing to essentially kill.
24:04She had to be willing to defend herself, even by responding.
24:09Then after…
24:09Yes, that's okay.
24:11We went further.
24:13Listen, have you ever had the feeling, the awareness, of being a murderer too?
24:18Of course I have.
24:19I have it because here too for a somewhat convoluted path.
24:25Sometimes I think back to my friends who were killed.
24:30And I look very carefully at some people who, so to speak, have forgiven.
24:36I met them, I even met them in prison.
24:38And I try to understand how they did it.
24:40Because I think back to my friends and I can neither forget them nor feel such a fatalistic sense of
24:47abandonment.
24:48It either happened or it didn't happen.
24:49I still feel a very strong attachment to certain situations and a very strong sense of injustice.
24:53I still believe I suffered injustice when they took this story away from me.
24:59They took these affections away from me.
25:01And I clearly also understand that it is the exact same feeling that others have towards me.
25:07I mean, since I'm very interested in these people who forgive but I still can't understand them.
25:14I also understand that the so-called relatives of the victims, who are sometimes talked about inappropriately, are talked about a little
25:19lightly, rhetorically.
25:21They are not so-called, they are relatives of the victims.
25:23It's a vague term.
25:24I say so-called because it is a horse that is used for low-rhetorical political battles.
25:30They are people.
25:32So that's what I was saying too.
25:34I think their feelings are very difficult as are mine.
25:38Not to be hypocritical, I have a pain for those I have known, for the affections they have for me.
25:45torn.
25:45Reflecting on this, I obviously understand that they also have the same feelings...
25:51So, would you kill them again?
25:54I don't think I told her that.
25:56No, I'll ask him.
25:59No, and not for any abstract or generic reason.
26:09Because from the fact that all this was particularly useless,
26:13from the fact that all this was born from our desire to take on responsibilities that were not ours,
26:19from the fact that a good part of this was perhaps just a generational maladjustment of ours.
26:27Mr. Fioravanti, what effect do these words from your son have on you?
26:32But no particular effect, today as today, because I experienced them with him too.
26:37I also find what he says quite honest.
26:40Well, but in those years did your son ever confess to killing you?
26:44No, no, never.
26:45Never?
26:46But no, because you know, precisely, going back to the beginning, I only categorically opposed him on these things.
26:52And so he never confessed it to her?
26:53I never agreed.
26:54Even though you talked about everything and that side.
26:56How unpleasant I was, he didn't say anything to me.
26:58Here, about him...
26:59I sensed it, of course.
27:00He sensed it.
27:01And then the newspapers, the radio, it's not that...
27:03Well, about him, about Giusva, someone said that he was just a bloodthirsty madman,
27:07who basically just liked killing.
27:09Well, a lot has been said.
27:10Look, he's not with her...
27:11So what were those who killed Vale, or who killed Alibrandi, or who killed Anselmi?
27:21No, but we were talking about him now.
27:22Well, he was friends with these guys.
27:25It's a reaction, if a dear friend of yours were killed, I think you would have some reaction too.
27:29Yes, does it not necessarily mean that one shoots?
27:31Ah well, if he doesn't have courage, he doesn't shoot.
27:33Just a question of courage?
27:35Well, yes, too. I think so.
27:36Listen, what does a father read in the eyes of a son he knows he killed?
27:43Do you only read courage, as you say now, or do you read something else as well?
27:46Now don't weigh your words.
27:50And what do I read?
27:51I read that he is convinced of what he does.
27:56He is convinced because he undoubtedly pursues an ideal, whether this ideal is right or wrong.
28:02And did you ever think you had to do more than fight it?
28:05But I did more, what more could I do?
28:07No, I don't know.
28:08More than hitting him, more than arguing, more than telling him, these things lead nowhere.
28:15There are only two ways out: death or prison.
28:17What have you got in your head?
28:19Because I couldn't do more than this.
28:21Here, however, precisely, even the fiery career of Fioravanti, of Giuseppe Fioravanti, has an epilogue.
28:27And it is a tragic epilogue, which takes place on a February night in a canal on the outskirts of Padua.
28:34The terrorists who yesterday evening around 10pm, in the Bassanello area, on the outskirts of Padua, are in third place.
28:42you're seeing, they mowed down two policemen.
28:45It was aimed by Enea Codotto, 26 years old, from Latisana, Friuli, and the soldier Luigi Maronese, 24 years old, from Vittorio Veneto.
28:53The two fatally wounded Carabinieri collapsed, but first managed to reach one of the attackers by the legs.
28:59Shortly after, the same murderers, through a bartender, alerted 113, which in an apartment in the centre has
29:05Giuseppe Valerio Fioravanti, 22 years old, neo-fascist from Rovereto, was found in serious conditions,
29:11wanted for the assassination of Judge Mario Amato and the Bologna station massacre.
29:15The spiral of violence by the NAR is now in a downward spiral.
29:20A year passes and on March 5th 1982, a day of fire, the last for Mambro, who comes
29:27wounded and arrested.
29:28With this arrest, therefore, the fiery career of the two historical leaders of the NAR ends and the years begin
29:35of detention and trials.
29:37But this story, all Italian, so tragic and shocking, has another twist in store, a key witness for the prosecution in
29:48many of the numerous trials against Valerio Fioravanti
29:51and his brother Cristiano, who also took part, as we heard, in many of the attacks of those years.
29:59Her brother remains her biggest accuser to this day. Now, she would never have imagined this could happen.
30:07This?
30:08Coldly, if you sit down to think, you have to imagine everything. I wouldn't have expected it because...
30:15for an emotional question, not for a question of psychological analysis.
30:20Knowing my brother's rather weak, rather utilitarian psychology, it was predictable.
30:25I didn't expect it because in our group, feelings have always prevailed over any logic.
30:32I thought that the feeling was between us, it had to override any other argument.
30:36So, during the time you were killing together, what was the relationship between the two of you?
30:41In reality this period almost never happened because when our question took such a turn
30:48fierce, so demanding,
30:51We've always found a way, me and my other friends, to keep him out of it a bit.
30:57Perhaps the last regurgitations of a protective instinct he may have had.
31:01But is there anything you never liked about Cristiano? Thinking back now.
31:08The fact that he didn't have a strong personality, in the sense that he was, he wasn't...
31:15Zuccube?
31:17Brother's victim?
31:18On certain occasions where, for example, the occasion in which we had to get Valerio out, we had to free him,
31:23he didn't think that this could be a solution, he thought instead that the best solution was to
31:29to expatriate.
31:31Listen, do you think you'll ever be able to forgive your brother or not?
31:37Forgive? Here too I don't want to give the usual answer to the difference between Christian forgiveness and then a rigor that
31:44somewhere else it must strike equally.
31:46I have certainly forgiven him because, from a certain point of view, I forgive him because it is certainly an act of
31:53weakness and cowardice and if someone, as they say in Rome, can't stand his heart and more than
31:59you don't want to take it out on him anyway.
32:01But who was more scrupulous about pulling the trigger? She or her brother?
32:06I pressed it several times and he did it more willingly perhaps, if that can be a difference.
32:13Well, Mr. Fioravanti, this is a terrible judgment. Is it true? Is that so in your opinion? From what is given.
32:21Is it up to you to decide? Are they your children?
32:24Yes, they are my children, I cannot judge nor do I want to judge. For me they are only children and for children a
32:31Father does everything, of course when they need it most.
32:35Well, in your opinion, from a psychological point of view, what is the substantial difference between Valerio and Cristiano?
32:42The substantial difference is that they were two diametrically different characters. Valerio is the bold, the courageous one, and I would even say...
32:51the smartest.
32:53Cristiano is less prepared, less intelligent, less courageous, more opportunistic and all of this.
33:02So, when did you learn of Cristiano's decision to collaborate with justice?
33:07Ah, I never knew, he did it all by himself.
33:10But did you agree with Cristiano's decision to collaborate with justice or not?
33:15Well, that's a bit of a difficult answer because sharing things like that, I don't know, at certain times one says
33:24but maybe he did well, maybe he did badly, in front of this society that understands and doesn't understand and
33:29Maybe he never understands anything because he sees, he's a criminal, he's a murderer, he shoots, he carries out attacks.
33:35Maybe he did the right thing, maybe he did the wrong thing, who knows. No, what he did wrong was attacking.
33:39to the brother, yes, I don't agree with that.
33:42And did you talk about it?
33:44Eh, we talked about it, yes.
33:46And what did she tell her?
33:48I told her that I don't like it because between brothers today we support each other in good times and bad,
33:55especially in evil.
33:56So, you didn't intervene in any way in Cristiano's decision?
34:00No, they did it all themselves.
34:02Listen, Mr. Fioravanti, I have one last question for you.
34:05Yes.
34:05But if she could go back as a parent, would she make the same choices she did?
34:11What choices did I make?
34:12No, throughout his life and the education of his children, would he do everything the same again?
34:17I have no regrets, I think I was a good father, I did everything possible for
34:24always advise them in the best way.
34:29This is what a father does who is worthy of this name, with a capital P, who dreams for his children.
34:35children who knows what, which he may never save, but at worst I would have preferred a job in the land registry.
34:42Sure, I think so.
34:43They chose this, regardless of what either my wife or I could have suggested or taught them.
34:53And how does she live now?
34:55Well, how does he live? How does a father live with two boys in prison, one against the other, alone?
35:03And how would she live if she were in my situation?
35:06And how would any father live in my situation?
35:09It's easy to understand, isn't it?
35:11However, Valerio Fioravanti must serve three life sentences like his wife Francesca Mambro.
35:18And here ends the story of these two boys we have defined as the boys next door.
35:24Here, but what remains of the past, of the wounded, of the dead, of the attacks and of all the years of fear and
35:31of terror?
35:32For Italy, perhaps this is already history, a history to be understood and certainly not forgotten.
35:39And for them, for our two protagonists, what conclusions can they draw from their lives and what prospects do they have for themselves?
35:48What remains? Beyond the neuroses, beyond the reflections, beyond the lessons that everyone
35:53did we get it?
35:55I don't know, that's the big challenge.
35:58I see that there are many people, many of my friends who with what I call the excuse of
36:02dissociation tend to forget, to remove.
36:05And I think that this should not be done, I think we all paid for that period which was a very difficult period.
36:10fertile,
36:11of good feelings but also of bad feelings.
36:14We brought out the best part of ourselves but also the worst part.
36:16It's not something that can simply be put in the drawer, let's say we were wrong, let's pretend nothing happened,
36:23let's go back out and do nothing.
36:24No, it was a useful experience for better or worse.
36:28We have discovered the best part, the worst part of us and I would like the discussion not to be left to the usual ones
36:36politicians
36:37who are only trying to gain us a few votes, to blame one party, another, the party of firmness,
36:42to the party of harshness.
36:43I wish this reflection would be of some use.
36:47I have always suspected that a good part of '77 was born from the fact that Italy and the world has always
36:55had a war every twenty years, every thirty years.
36:56Perhaps we are also partly victims of the rhetoric of our fathers.
36:59We feel like we have not participated in any war.
37:02We had to prove that…
37:03We couldn't just be happy.
37:06It's not easy, in a very rhetorical country like ours, where there is a demonstration every week,
37:10where it seems that only those who fought in the war are heroes, all the others are worth less than less,
37:16perhaps unconsciously on our part there is the desire to demonstrate that in the event of war we too would have done
37:20our part.
37:21We invented the war, there was no need for it, we invented a civil war
37:25which was quite fatuous, if we want to see.
37:28There were no serious reasons to protest so vehemently against a country which, as I say,
37:34I still consider it much more civilized than many others where this phenomenon has not occurred.
37:39Now, if you were to tell your potential child what very interesting things you learned,
37:47What would you say about this period, those three violent years, let's say?
37:58I learned that people are less easy to understand than we thought,
38:09so I understood it through feelings and not through books
38:16either through abstract intelligence or through ideology.
38:22But would it scare you to have to tell your child about that period of your life?
38:27That is, would she feel ready?
38:35I do not know.
39:01In 1983 the king of Hollywood is him, Steven Spielberg.
39:05And that year in Italy, as throughout the world, he triumphs with E.T., the extraterrestrial.
39:10And mixer went behind the scenes of a masterpiece.
39:23It's almost a...
39:27Do you know what medium means?
39:29There's almost a psychic attraction between you and him.
39:33You are not sleeping, you are not dreaming, you are perfectly aware.
39:38But there is something that gives you courage,
39:40something that brings you closer and closer to this strange creature.
39:45You have to hold the torch,
39:46you have to hold the flashlight like a rifle.
39:50If you have to express fear,
39:51rather than walking with the flashlight calmly pointed at the ground,
39:56it's better that you wear it like this,
39:57as if it were a weapon.
40:00As you walk towards him, I would do this.
40:03I would get you out of the house, from here,
40:06I'd make you walk to that corner,
40:08as you look around.
40:10And when you point the flashlight beam across the garden,
40:15suddenly you're scared.
40:17E.T. is an intimate film for me.
40:20E.T. is the smallest film I've made, after Duel.
40:23It's the most focused.
40:25That's right.
40:26It's a film that can be kept as it is.
40:28This is E.T.
40:30This is close encounters.
40:32I can't lift it, I can't do it.
40:35But E.T. is something I can lift.
40:37And I love it because it's a film that comes from the heart.
40:40It's a film about human relationships.
40:43The creature is perhaps more human than humans.
40:57At 34, Steven Spielberg is now the undisputed king of Hollywood.
41:02Featuring E.T., Jaws, Close Encounters of the Third Kind and Raiders of the Lost Ark,
41:09he established himself as a master of adventure and the unknown that lies within and outside of us.
41:18I spend many hours getting familiar with the story, with the material I have.
41:23And I'm a careful planner.
41:25I spend months and months preparing my film.
41:28So when the day comes that I'm on set and I have to shoot,
41:32I've already seen the movie ten times inside myself.
41:35And sometimes I replay the movie so often in my head
41:38that when I find myself really turning,
41:40I change a lot of things, so that I'm interested in them again.
41:44Because you can acquire a certain immobility
41:46when you live a story for two, three, four years.
41:50It took six years for close encounters.
41:53Two years just trying to understand what UFOs meant.
41:56and the rest of the time I spent writing, rewriting, and actually shooting the film.
42:02It's not true that I'm attracted by mysterious forces.
42:05I just find it a challenge to deal with forces that cannot be seen,
42:09but which can be experienced and felt by other people.
42:12And all my films have a common strength, an idea
42:16which is either prosecute or be prosecuted.
42:24Well, I wouldn't have made any movies, nor Poltergeist,
42:27nor close encounters if I had not believed in this type of experiences
42:30that people seem to have continuously, year after year,
42:34such as seeing UFOs or having experiences with poltergeist ghosts.
42:40In Poltergeist we show spirits, ghosts
42:43and I had no idea what a ghost looked like.
42:48We had to create ghosts from scratch, just with our imagination.
42:52So I sat in a room with the special effects experts
42:56and I asked, what does a ghost look like?
42:59When someone dies their spirit must resemble the person,
43:02but it must be the same as the person or is it better to create a symbolic image
43:07of the way of being or thinking that the person had throughout life?
43:10Throughout my childhood I always had a great interest
43:13in making films that had an emotional effect on people,
43:16whether it was tears or laughter or making her scream in fear.
43:20I've always tried to make films that were a bit like the electric chair.
43:28When you make a film or tell a story,
43:31the only thing you see is love.
43:34All the hard work, the toil, the pain, the sweat, the blood or tears,
43:39nothing can replace the intentions of the person making the film.
43:42You can see if there is love, it's warmth.
43:45My problem is that I put too much love into my films.
43:48and not enough in my private life.
43:50And so it's very difficult to find a balance
43:52among those who I am outside of my films,
43:54within a relationship,
43:56and who I am when I make a film.
44:17The night is small for us,
44:22too small
44:25there is little time to dance
44:29and to sing
44:32if the day is long to pass
44:35the night flies
44:37the night is small for us
44:41too small
44:43but for those who sing
44:46but for those who sing like us
44:47together with us
44:50it will last for a thousand hours
44:53just one hour
44:56the night is tender
44:59the night is tender
45:00tender
45:00young, young
45:03splendid, splendid
45:06beautiful to die for
45:08the night is small for us
45:12too small
45:14but what are we waiting for?
45:18come dance
45:22the time comes sooner or later
45:24that makes us fall in love
45:27the night is small for us
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