Il Mostro di Ponticelli |Parte2| Telefono Giallo 1989 [CrimeCult]

DivinumCrime

Il 3 luglio 1983 vengono rinvenuti i corpi straziati di due bambine, Barbara Sellini di 7 anni e Nunzia Munizzi di 10 anni, scomparse la sera precedente nei pressi del quartiere Ponticelli di Napoli. Per il duplice orrendo omicidio vengono condannati all'ergastolo i ventenni incensurati Ciro Imperante, Luigi Schiavo e Giuseppe La Rocca. I tre si sono sempre dichiarati innocenti e nell'istanza di revisione presentata nel 2013 nuovi elementi hanno indotto i giudici a riaprire il caso. A distanza di oltre un trentennio, dunque, si cerca ancora la verità...  1989 - Telefono giallo 1989 - Ponticelli 02 - Tragico appuntamento per due bambine - 02  #Mostro #Ponticelli #TelefonoGiallo #Crime #TrueCrime #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Nera #CronacaItaliana #Crimini #Criminali #CasiIrrisolti #Misteri #Mistero #Documentari #DocITA #CrimeDoc #Indagine #Giallo #Omicidio #Assassino #Killer #SerialKiller #Noir #Racconto #Cattura #CSI #CriminalMinds #SubENG #Delitto #Delitti #Crimine #Criminale #DivinumCrime #Blu #Notte #Carlo #Lucarelli #Misteri #Italiani #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DocuITA #Netflix #Streaming #SerieTV #Serie #TV #Stagione #Completa #StagioneCompleta #Tutte #Puntate #Puntata #Episodi #Episodio

Transcript

00:00:00It can't be, that's a normal girl, all three of them are also very normal because we know them, it's impossible,

00:00:08we are, I don't know, I've known them for too long,

00:00:13On Sundays the two of us went dancing together, they were guys like us, then my boyfriend wanted to do something, he went out

00:00:21for example, he did it to me, no, no, a 10 year old girl, the others too, they are normal kids,

00:00:26there were girls so they had us following, because they had to throw away the two children, I was already developed at

00:00:34'era, then I don't miss girls,

00:00:37why do I want to say it, why would she have to be around a boy who would do something like that?

00:00:45Here, this was it, in her naturalness, in her slightly cheeky naivety, this girl tells us an example, she gives us

00:00:54an element of reflection

00:00:56that had a certain effect on me and on us, she was there, because there was a need to resort to

00:01:05to other things.

00:01:07Next to me now is Professor Goffredo Schaudone, who was a party defendant during the trial,

00:01:14of the second degree, during the trial in the Court of Assizes of Appeal.

00:01:19Professor Schaudone, what can we say about the time of the crime?

00:01:23As for the backdating, the detail that the corpses were burned,

00:01:32as Professor Zarone, the official expert, has argued, they do not allow for a univocal answer.

00:01:49All the classical thanatological criteria that are used, in this case by the forensic doctor,

00:01:58they could not be used given this circumstance.

00:02:04The devastation of bodies?

00:02:06There were some particulars that were discussed in the trial,

00:02:12on the one hand, for example, the fact that the mortuary police had noticed when removing the body of little Sellini,

00:02:20that was still bleeding, but the type of lesion, it was the carotid that had been rendered,

00:02:26the type of position, the little girl was towering over the other little girl.

00:02:31It was hot, the heat too, the temperature.

00:02:33The conditions in which they essentially add nothing, I would say, are quite indifferent.

00:02:43Thus the discussion is indifferent, that is, various hypotheses can be given,

00:02:48snack yes, snack no.

00:02:50If I may, I didn't see this snack in the video.

00:02:53I don't know this snack thing.

00:02:55It appears that one of the two girls had a snack with her.

00:02:59There was a long discussion about whether or not the little girl had eaten the snack.

00:03:05because in the autopsy report Professor Zarone found that the stomach was empty.

00:03:11But even this particular, I would say, is quite different.

00:03:14Instead there was a situation of considerable interest

00:03:18which is represented by the particular highlighted by Professor Zarone's office project

00:03:23of the presence of cadaveric fauna on the body of little Sirlini.

00:03:29What is cadaveric fauna?

00:03:30The cadaveric fauna are the demolishing insects

00:03:36which intervene when the body remains exposed.

00:03:40The putrefaction.

00:03:42Exactly.

00:03:43And how can I say, on this point there was also an opinion from Professor Tremblay,

00:03:50the director of the Department of Agricultural Entomology of the University of Portici

00:03:56and basically the interesting problem is this

00:04:02that since this type of finding was made only on Sirlini's body

00:04:09and since these insects are attracted not by the smell of burning flesh

00:04:16but from the smell of rotten flesh one could hypothesize a different time of death

00:04:24for the two little girls.

00:04:26You might tell me, but the bodies were burned and so...

00:04:30But Professor Zarone describes, so to speak, parts of unburned corpses

00:04:35in which essentially the normal burning system took place.

00:04:41Of the ready putrefactive course?

00:04:43Good evening, Dr. Auger, I wanted some clarification from you.

00:04:47In telling the facts, she said that it was used, it seems to me, in an unequivocal manner.

00:04:53alcohol to burn the two bodies.

00:04:55Yes, look, you're taking the words right out of my mouth, so to speak.

00:04:58Since we're a little late, if I may, I already understand what you mean.

00:05:03I think I understand.

00:05:04The video reconstruction instead shows the sample being taken.

00:05:07Yes, but that one, I said, maybe she was distracted for a moment at that moment.

00:05:12That was the video reconstruction according to the sentence and according to the prosecution.

00:05:17Ah, here it is.

00:05:17It was a filmed reconstruction, let's say...

00:05:19Which is different from what you described...

00:05:21Here, and that was the question I was about to ask Professor Sciaudone.

00:05:25That is, with what liquid, in your opinion, with what fuel were they burned,

00:05:29was the fire that burned the corpses started?

00:05:32That's what I was about to ask.

00:05:33I'd say there's a part here...

00:05:34We had the same idea.

00:05:36Thanks for calling.

00:05:37There is a glaring contradiction in the study of the documents.

00:05:41Because in the volume, first of the acts, page 77,

00:05:44there is a statement from the State Police that alcohol was used.

00:05:48While in the trial the hypothesis that the burn was caused by petrol is always put forward.

00:05:56But how can you distinguish one figure from another?

00:05:59Since there were residues of tissues, and these tissues were evidently soaked in the fuel,

00:06:05they could be examined.

00:06:06It is one of 19 requests for further investigations that were made at the time and not granted.

00:06:15And even today, if the remains of the girls' clothes have been preserved,

00:06:23and I believe they are in the judicial record,

00:06:25theoretically some type of investigation would be possible.

00:06:30I have to get up for a moment and ask her to stay here and sit comfortably,

00:06:34because I have to approach Mrs. Assunta Imperante.

00:06:37Good evening, Mrs. Assunta.

00:06:39Thanks for being here, I know it wasn't easy.

00:06:42Mrs Assunta, there is a fourth and final doubt surrounding the reconstruction of the facts,

00:06:48and that is that some of the confessions were had, were obtained,

00:06:53so to speak, under strong pressure from the investigators.

00:06:58Can you say something?

00:06:59Yes.

00:07:00In this regard I want to say what I know,

00:07:03which results from the documents, results from the statements made by these boys to the magistrates,

00:07:08already to the investigating judge, then they reiterated it during the first degree trial,

00:07:14they reiterated it again during the second degree trial.

00:07:19These guys made reports about it, detailed reports, not vague at all.

00:07:25And that is, what did he say?

00:07:27He hoped that he had suffered mistreatment of all kinds at the barracks,

00:07:33and that following this mistreatment Salvatore Larocca at a certain point felt he had to make a choice.

00:07:40Salvatore Larocca naively, thinking then that he could explain to the judges in what conditions he had signed,

00:07:46he chose to sign the confession statement.

00:07:50However, I want to say this, that the complaints were not vague at all,

00:07:54so much so that the public prosecutor in the first instance deemed it appropriate to open an investigation

00:07:58to ascertain any responsibilities on the point.

00:08:03Then, the complaints of these boys are also supported by medical reports,

00:08:09they find further support in a report from the investigating judge.

00:08:12Luigi Schiavo, when he was questioned by the examining magistrate, wanted to take off his shirt.

00:08:18Why?

00:08:18To show the examining magistrate the marks he had on his shoulders.

00:08:22Signs of what?

00:08:23Signs, no, it is stated in the report, it is noted that the defendant has signs on his shoulders,

00:08:31does not specify the investigating judge.

00:08:33However, these signs were there.

00:08:35Well, well, it can be interpreted in various ways.

00:08:38What kind of signs could they have been?

00:08:41There could have been signs of beatings, injuries, torture.

00:08:44They could have been signs, otherwise Luigi Schiavo would not have taken off his shirt to show them.

00:08:50Yes, on the other hand the report could have been clearer, because after all a sign of beating is a sign

00:08:56of beating.

00:08:56Of course, the minutes could have been clearer.

00:08:58It could have been clearer.

00:09:00This is perhaps a point we will talk about in the second part.

00:09:03Sure, definitely.

00:09:04If she thinks.

00:09:06However, I would like to add that I was very impressed by the video I saw a little while ago.

00:09:12The video of the arrest.

00:09:14Besides seeing it, it hurt me deeply, because at the time I didn't have the strength to see it.

00:09:19The news footage from September 5th, of the boys' arrest.

00:09:24And I was struck by one detail.

00:09:26I had already noticed it in the newspapers.

00:09:28However, from the video it was clearly possible to see a stain on the chest, on Luigi Schiavo's white shirt,

00:09:37diligently covered by the hand of the policeman who accompanies him.

00:09:41Who knows if Adriana Borgonovo, director, could show us this video again.

00:09:49If not now, maybe in the second part.

00:09:51It will definitely be there during the break.

00:09:53Thank you Mr. Imperante.

00:09:55I would now like to close the first part of this program here, but I would like to announce that at the beginning of the recovery,

00:10:03In about ten minutes, we're going to show you a pretty strong document.

00:10:07It's an interview that our Tg3 colleague, Alessandro Gaeta, did in the Spoleto prison a few days ago

00:10:14to the three condemned, to the three murderers recognized by sentence.

00:10:18And it's an interview I invite you to listen to; we'll feature it right after this news break.

00:10:26Thanks, see you soon.

00:10:35At 10:21 you are a little late but the events in the world are many and serious.

00:10:41At 10.21 you will be connected again to the second part of this yellow telephone.

00:10:46I would like to start by immediately broadcasting that interview that my colleague from Tg3, Alessandro Gaeta,

00:10:52he did a few days ago in the Spoleto prison with the three convicted of this crime.

00:10:58Let's look at it together.

00:11:04This is the Spoleto prison.

00:11:06Ciro Imperante, Giuseppe Larocca and Luigi Schiavo are here, beyond these gates,

00:11:12isolated from all other inmates.

00:11:14Sentenced to life imprisonment, they have been in prison for almost five years and maintain their innocence.

00:11:22She is accused of raping and killing Barbara Sellini and Nunzia Munizzi, two little girls.

00:11:31Did you know these two girls?

00:11:33Yes, I knew these two girls because these two girls were playing nearby

00:11:40where we had a group, right?

00:11:42That is, these children played under the eyes of their families.

00:11:45and we had a group not far away where these children played.

00:11:50Could she ever have made an appointment with these girls?

00:11:53But it's absurd, he makes an appointment with two children.

00:11:56We're kidding.

00:11:59Here, on the evening of the crime, according to the prosecution's reconstruction

00:12:03he arrives by car in a white 500, his white 500.

00:12:08Yes.

00:12:08In front of this nightclub he meets Carmine Mastrillo.

00:12:12I would like to point out that in that disco there were all my friends,

00:12:14so I was recognized immediately, as soon as I set foot in that nightclub.

00:12:19When he went down to a disco where everyone knows me,

00:12:22he could have gone.

00:12:23Here's the absurdity.

00:12:24It was believed to be a truly false text.

00:12:28Go and tell.

00:12:29And then the truth is, if I had been guilty,

00:12:31no, I was going to tell.

00:12:32No, I went to him and told him,

00:12:34listen, we did it, because if I am guilty of two murders,

00:12:37It means I'm a beast.

00:12:39And so I definitely would have taken it,

00:12:42I would have taken him, I would have called him, we would have brought him by car

00:12:45and we would have killed him.

00:12:46This is the truth.

00:12:47It can't be hidden.

00:12:48The marshal asks me this question,

00:12:50Do you know these children?

00:12:51And he said, no, I don't know her.

00:12:53This same question was asked to the little girl.

00:12:55The little girl said, she doesn't know him at this point.

00:12:57He tells the little girl, no, it's not him,

00:12:58then I don't know him,

00:12:59that one wore a moustache,

00:13:00blond hair and indigines.

00:13:02In fact, he didn't have any natives,

00:13:04so they cleared him of...

00:13:06Because the marshal said,

00:13:08if this little girl recognizes you

00:13:09on the way to enter this room,

00:13:12if this little girl recognizes you,

00:13:13you have lost the sunlight,

00:13:15he was basically saying, you're ruined.

00:13:17This little girl didn't know me, so...

00:13:20And then I want to clarify one thing about this fact.

00:13:23When I made this comparison,

00:13:25this fact was not recorded.

00:13:27I ask myself why me?

00:13:29So she told herself an episode

00:13:31which in reality is not in the process,

00:13:32it is not in his characteristics.

00:13:33Yes, there isn't, but this story that I told you,

00:13:36I did it in the first degree trial too,

00:13:38and Marshal Mastroianne says,

00:13:40yes, what slave is saying is true.

00:13:42And the president asks him this question

00:13:45to Marshal Mastroianne,

00:13:46he says, marshal, how come he didn't record this fact?

00:13:51The marshal replies,

00:13:53we didn't think it was appropriate.

00:13:54How did we think it was appropriate?

00:13:55You call a person to do a reconnaissance,

00:13:57we didn't think it was appropriate for you to do that

00:13:59a reconnaissance with a person.

00:14:02This is an absurd thing.

00:14:04At some point in the process appears

00:14:06a figure of a person who seems

00:14:11then it is identified for her, if I'm not mistaken,

00:14:13who would have a moustache, blond hair and a litter box.

00:14:18Yes, in fact a third person was being sought,

00:14:21and this person had to have physical features,

00:14:26that is, he had to have blond hair, curly blond hair,

00:14:31freckles on face, many freckles on face,

00:14:34mustache, and well I just don't recognize myself

00:14:38right in this description,

00:14:40which is also in the sentence these descriptions.

00:14:43And with this description of the person

00:14:47which was later recognized to be her,

00:14:49did it remain like this in the sentence?

00:14:50That is, it remained like that in the sentence.

00:14:52And I went to the president in the first instance,

00:14:55look me in the face,

00:14:57see if I have freckles, if I have blond hair,

00:15:00and he looked at me and had me write it down,

00:15:03he said the current ruler does not have freckles.

00:15:07I mean, as if I had freckles,

00:15:09then I took them off,

00:15:10I had an operation,

00:15:11I took them off,

00:15:12Now there's something really absurd.

00:15:19Well, these are the statements then

00:15:21of the three condemned,

00:15:23and now I'll move on right away,

00:15:25because it's almost half past ten,

00:15:28to introduce, you have known many of them,

00:15:30some don't,

00:15:31our guests in the studio,

00:15:32starting with my colleague Anna Maria Chiariello,

00:15:35followed by Dr. Michele Coiro.

00:15:39Dr. Coiro is deputy prosecutor in Rome,

00:15:43did not have a direct part in this process,

00:15:46but we asked him to come,

00:15:47because he is a magistrate

00:15:48whose proven experience and wisdom,

00:15:51we resort to it from time to time,

00:15:53maybe even disturbing him a little,

00:15:55when we have doubts,

00:15:57and to ask him a few little questions,

00:16:00so I thank him twice for coming.

00:16:02Senator Ferdinando Imposimato,

00:16:05he is a magistrate and currently a senator,

00:16:08who is here for the reasons

00:16:10which he has so well explained in the first part,

00:16:12the lawyer Massimo Krog,

00:16:14who was Ciro Imperante's lawyer in the Supreme Court,

00:16:18assumed Imperante,

00:16:19from which we will begin immediately,

00:16:21just finished this round of introductions,

00:16:23why Adriana Borgonovo directs

00:16:25found the image she recalled from the video,

00:16:29and now we will see it and comment on it together.

00:16:32Lawyer Aldo Serra,

00:16:34who is Giuseppe Larocca's lawyer,

00:16:36and the lawyer Angelo Rosciano,

00:16:39who is the defender of Luigi Schiavo,

00:16:41if I'm not mistaken,

00:16:42Professor Alfonso Zarone,

00:16:44highly nominated in the first part

00:16:46with an impetuous character

00:16:48and court-appointed expert in the trial,

00:16:51Professor Goffredo Sciaudone,

00:16:53who was instead an expert witness,

00:16:55the lawyer Giovanni Battista Vignola,

00:16:57former magistrate and now lawyer,

00:17:00public prosecutor of the hearing

00:17:02in the first instance trial,

00:17:04and finally the lawyer Alfonso Furgioele,

00:17:06good evening lawyer,

00:17:07I owe you a greeting,

00:17:09because she is the particular lawyer,

00:17:10because she is the civil party's lawyer,

00:17:12that is, it represents the family of the victims,

00:17:15both families,

00:17:15both families of the victims,

00:17:17and therefore his is a position

00:17:20of particular delicacy,

00:17:21Thank you for joining us.

00:17:23Sera Borgonovo sends us that image,

00:17:26a moment we were talking about before,

00:17:29here, what does she say?

00:17:32Can we do it, is this what he was saying?

00:17:34Yes, anyway it was framed first,

00:17:35I think, more closely.

00:17:38Now let's see how the sequence develops,

00:17:41if...

00:17:42Which of the three defendants is this?

00:17:44Slave.

00:17:45Slave.

00:17:47Do you think you see anything special in this?

00:17:50The hand...

00:17:50And the bloodstain is underneath.

00:17:53They're hiding something, aren't they?

00:17:55It is clearly visible.

00:17:56The hand of the carabiner.

00:17:58But...

00:17:58It's very strange to carry under one arm like this, isn't it?

00:18:02There's a stain under that hand.

00:18:04there is another photograph,

00:18:05another frame,

00:18:07where the bloodstain is clearly visible.

00:18:11Because I don't actually see any blood stains here,

00:18:14I see maybe...

00:18:14The hand that covers, that is.

00:18:16There is a hand that covers.

00:18:18There's the side dish...

00:18:19Here is the hand of the carabiner.

00:18:21Okay, well.

00:18:22This was the image,

00:18:23we saw it again,

00:18:24now then...

00:18:26Doctor Coiro,

00:18:27she wanted to ask a question, I think,

00:18:29he had told me,

00:18:30who didn't understand well?

00:18:33Ninth.

00:18:33It seemed to me that from the story

00:18:36had not emerged clearly

00:18:40because on what evidence basis

00:18:42the three boys had been convicted.

00:18:47I read the sentences,

00:18:49so perhaps a small clarification might be appropriate.

00:18:55But look, I don't have...

00:18:56Obviously mine is a summary

00:18:58which has no value,

00:19:00if not the journalistic one.

00:19:02What we understood,

00:19:03reconstructing the facts,

00:19:04is that they were convicted

00:19:05based on two testimonies.

00:19:07it is that of Carmine Mastrillo,

00:19:10that with faith,

00:19:11and that of Giuseppe Larocca.

00:19:14No, Salvatore's.

00:19:15By Salvatore Larocca.

00:19:17Here, perhaps, here,

00:19:19Lawyer Fugiole rightly reprimands me.

00:19:23She has to say it,

00:19:24on what basis they were convicted.

00:19:25I have to predict one thing,

00:19:26that I am not a professional prosecutor,

00:19:29least of all an accuser of these defendants.

00:19:32I acted as a civil party in the trial

00:19:36and I'm here on behalf of the families.

00:19:39Which means that I,

00:19:41as well as the people I represent,

00:19:43we have always sought and wanted the truth.

00:19:46Not an attachment to an accusatory thesis

00:19:50that cannot support us,

00:19:51why imagine a mother of a little girl

00:19:53if he can desire a further victim.

00:19:55He desires the truth.

00:19:56Can you answer Dr. Coiro's question?

00:19:59Especially to Doctor Coiro.

00:20:02First of all, there are not two testimonies,

00:20:05why the first testimony

00:20:07it is that of Esposito, originally,

00:20:10and it's about the appointment.

00:20:11It is a very ancient testimony,

00:20:14always in the chronology of investigations,

00:20:16because it dates back to an early stage

00:20:18when Esposito was not believed

00:20:20and was even arrested

00:20:23as a slanderer of the three boys

00:20:26who were later convicted.

00:20:28Next comes Mastrillo's testimony.

00:20:32It is a directly accusatory testimony

00:20:35against the three defendants for the exit.

00:20:38And you get there gradually,

00:20:39because Esposito talks about the appointment.

00:20:43Yes, but Esposito talks about the date.

00:20:45Then we'll see if they are maybe.

00:20:47I would like to see what they consist of

00:20:49Esposito's statements,

00:20:51the accusatory statements.

00:20:53Talk before the appointment.

00:20:54I would like to know,

00:20:55it's not enough to say there are Esposito's statements,

00:20:59It is necessary to say what these declarations consist of.

00:21:03That is, what is the part of the declarations

00:21:05which constitute the element of accusation against...

00:21:07You should read them,

00:21:07but this is not the place to do so.

00:21:09So, in short,

00:21:11let's say that the esposito

00:21:13is a witness in the part

00:21:16in which he reports

00:21:18of the appointment

00:21:19that would have been taken

00:21:20among the current convicts

00:21:23and the girls.

00:21:24This is the testimony.

00:21:25The object of the testimony

00:21:27it's about this.

00:21:28Then the evaluation of the testimony

00:21:29it's another story.

00:21:31Listen, Senator,

00:21:32I would like the lawyer to finish,

00:21:33also because he never spoke in the first part,

00:21:35so it's right that he...

00:21:36No, but it could make even more.

00:21:37No, but he ends up with...

00:21:38Sure, sure, for goodness sake.

00:21:40I'm slow to have...

00:21:41This clarification is necessary for us too.

00:21:43As for me,

00:21:44I'm slow to have styles too...

00:21:46But it's not a thing...

00:21:47And the esposito is pointed out by two children, that is...

00:21:50Esposito is indicated by Sasso, first of all.

00:21:53From Sasso and the Anzovino Ernesto.

00:21:54From the elderly Ernesto.

00:21:55So there are various indications of the expositor

00:21:57and then what the esposito says receives in turn

00:22:00a series of indirect confirmations from other children

00:22:03and even non-child people.

00:22:05So first testimony.

00:22:06The second testimony is that of Mastrillo,

00:22:09which has already been talked about

00:22:10and about which some clarifications can then be made

00:22:13if you allow me three minutes

00:22:15then make a series of clarifications

00:22:16from what has been said so far.

00:22:19Then there is the testimony of Nocella,

00:22:21Salvatore Larocca's girlfriend,

00:22:23which was not even mentioned.

00:22:24And it's interesting...

00:22:25He hinted at the clarity of it.

00:22:27It is only mentioned

00:22:29and a fact has been overlooked

00:22:31that Nocella testified

00:22:34or confessed, so to speak,

00:22:37because he had nothing to confess,

00:22:38in reality he said he confessed,

00:22:40but he actually testified

00:22:42redoing some data

00:22:44enriched compared to what Mastrillo was said

00:22:46before he even spoke

00:22:48and confess this time

00:22:49yes, Salvatore Larocca.

00:22:51So it has already been talked about

00:22:53first the Nocella

00:22:54which is read in the minutes

00:22:56his face turns pale

00:22:58he asks for a glass of water

00:22:59he gives himself high

00:23:00it is given high, it is said in the minutes

00:23:02I say what was written in the minutes

00:23:04and then reports a series of facts

00:23:07with an enrichment

00:23:09compared to what Mastrillo had said

00:23:11so it's not a script

00:23:13recycled

00:23:13and then there is the testimony

00:23:17Salvatore Larocca's confession

00:23:19so as you can see

00:23:20they are no longer two

00:23:21the accusatory statements

00:23:24if we want to take it as proof

00:23:25only accusatory statements

00:23:29or confessionals

00:23:30or of testimony

00:23:32Lawyer Forgiuele

00:23:37it makes a big mess

00:23:39Esposito

00:23:41that is, about the testimony of Esposito

00:23:45regarding Esposito's testimony

00:23:48it should be framed in this way

00:23:50the carabinieri

00:23:51the carabinieri arrest Esposito

00:23:56because they want to point out

00:24:00having learned from Ansovino Ernesto

00:24:02at 4.30 pm

00:24:05who was in square number 45

00:24:10and by 4pm

00:24:12What is square number 4?

00:24:13the square where the meetings took place

00:24:16where the meetings took place

00:24:17at 4.30pm

00:24:19says Ansovino

00:24:21I saw the exhibit

00:24:24and I recognized him through the mirror

00:24:27the esposito

00:24:28first of all he denies and says

00:24:31not to be in the square

00:24:34but to have gone

00:24:36to make salad in Avezzano

00:24:40and call for comfort

00:24:44to see if Esposito was telling the truth

00:24:47lawyer, but excuse me

00:24:48I have a methodological objection to make.

00:24:50we can't

00:24:51go

00:24:52I had allowed myself on purpose

00:24:55I wanted to ask Dr. Coiro

00:24:57Dr. Coiro

00:24:58she asked a question

00:24:59Lawyer Fagiola answered her

00:25:02so now it's clear

00:25:04I'm not saying it's true

00:25:06I say it's clear how it was done

00:25:08how the verdict was reached

00:25:10yes with some concatenation if I may say so

00:25:13that is exactly

00:25:16you get to the esposito because

00:25:18Anzovino knows

00:25:20It is known that the two girls have made an appointment

00:25:23with some guys for the next day

00:25:25Excuse me, Dr. Coiro

00:25:26it's a

00:25:27it's a

00:25:28sorry but it was the esposito accused of having made the appointment

00:25:31Certain

00:25:31ready

00:25:32Doctor Eugia

00:25:33then call

00:25:33Yes

00:25:34I feel I'm a savior

00:25:36ouch

00:25:37I'm so sorry

00:25:37I am a savior

00:25:38Joseph's brother

00:25:40Yes

00:25:40Good evening

00:25:41Good evening

00:25:42listen I called for

00:25:43to ask a question

00:25:45to the lawyer Fuggioela

00:25:48it's Dr. Vignola

00:25:50these two people always say that

00:25:52they have

00:25:53my confession is genuine

00:25:55but they know what condition I'm in

00:25:57they put these policemen on me

00:26:00to say these things

00:26:01and yet I said it

00:26:03and yet they didn't believe me

00:26:05and then what did they find

00:26:06of what I said

00:26:08that is, they put it into practice

00:26:09if truth really exists

00:26:12and then I would like to ask a specific question

00:26:14to the

00:26:15to the

00:26:15to Dr. Vignola

00:26:18I was interrogated at the time

00:26:20In the

00:26:21in the first instance by Judge Lanni

00:26:23and I was explaining in my mind

00:26:26regarding the

00:26:27torture that I was undergoing

00:26:28I was explaining

00:26:29I was writing all these things

00:26:32Dr. Vignola told me

00:26:34just don't talk anymore

00:26:35you'll say it in another place

00:26:37and yet so many years have passed

00:26:39since that day

00:26:39and I haven't had any more

00:26:41more news

00:26:42How come?

00:26:44these are the questions

00:26:45Thank you

00:26:46Dr. Vignola

00:26:47lawyer Vignola

00:26:48as far as it concerns

00:26:50the

00:26:51torture or

00:26:52violence

00:26:53object

00:26:54of which they were objects

00:26:55the defendants

00:26:56or it is assumed

00:26:58which were objects

00:26:58the defendants

00:26:59there is something to do

00:27:00a double relief

00:27:02the first is that

00:27:03in the presence of a

00:27:04complaint of the kind

00:27:05in hearing

00:27:06I thought it was my duty

00:27:07ask for transmission

00:27:09of the documents to the PM

00:27:09that is, to my office

00:27:11and therefore of these

00:27:12investigations relating to these

00:27:14alleged violence

00:27:14an investigation was carried out

00:27:16apart from which

00:27:17I don't know the result

00:27:18I didn't take care of it

00:27:19there is someone

00:27:19who knows it

00:27:20it has been archived

00:27:21it has been archived

00:27:23Dr. Aldo

00:27:24Excuse me

00:27:25let's not interrupt

00:27:26but the lawyer

00:27:26because we are already

00:27:27interrupting the doctor

00:27:28Coiro

00:27:28otherwise it gets tangled up

00:27:29everything becomes

00:27:30but I wanted to read

00:27:30the reports

00:27:32let's get to this point

00:27:34the problem

00:27:35Excuse me

00:27:36the reports

00:27:38No

00:27:39No

00:27:40Excuse me

00:27:40I would come later

00:27:41I wish it would end

00:27:42the answer

00:27:43otherwise it becomes a mess

00:27:44you can't understand anything anymore

00:27:45the problem

00:27:46I think it goes

00:27:46clearly placed

00:27:47in these terms

00:27:48on the one hand if there have been

00:27:49violence or not

00:27:50and that's one thing

00:27:51to be ascertained

00:27:52confirmed or not

00:27:53the other point

00:27:54but what does it seem to me

00:27:54much more significant

00:27:56in this process

00:27:57is to verify

00:27:57the incidence

00:27:59of any violence

00:28:00on the sentence

00:28:01of condemnation

00:28:02this is the problem

00:28:03and then

00:28:04if this is the problem

00:28:05let's put it for a moment

00:28:06by

00:28:07the violence

00:28:07that Salvatore Larocca

00:28:09he claims to have suffered

00:28:10and let's ask ourselves

00:28:12and one of the reasons

00:28:13of the hinges

00:28:13also to answer

00:28:14to Dr. Coiro

00:28:16the cornerstones of the accusation

00:28:17it's not so much

00:28:18the confession

00:28:19by Salvatore Larocca

00:28:19which is a fact

00:28:20almost marginal

00:28:21of the process

00:28:22the thing that I

00:28:23personally

00:28:24I found

00:28:25much more significant

00:28:26it's the statement

00:28:27of Nocella

00:28:28the girlfriend

00:28:29by Salvatore Larocca

00:28:30which presents itself

00:28:31in the barracks

00:28:31she is questioned

00:28:33and after that

00:28:33Salvatore Larocca

00:28:34he had let slip

00:28:36of having had

00:28:37the brother's visit

00:28:38while he

00:28:39Salvatore Larocca

00:28:40he was together

00:28:40with Nocella

00:28:41to the dispute

00:28:42of the judge

00:28:43what does he say?

00:28:43but someone came

00:28:44that evening

00:28:45he understands

00:28:46that something

00:28:47Salvatore Larocca

00:28:48he said

00:28:48and then

00:28:49confess everything

00:28:50but what

00:28:50confess?

00:28:51confess

00:28:52and attributes

00:28:52to her boyfriend

00:28:53the position

00:28:55marginal

00:28:55that he

00:28:56actually had

00:28:56ultimately

00:28:57the Nocella

00:28:57speaks to defend

00:28:58and to save

00:28:59your boyfriend

00:29:00this is that

00:29:01which animated

00:29:01and I ask myself

00:29:02Still

00:29:02who ever has

00:29:04raped

00:29:04the Nocella

00:29:06what meaning

00:29:07has this statement

00:29:09or it was a fake

00:29:11of the public prosecutor

00:29:13a judge

00:29:14who writes

00:29:14a false report

00:29:15and then

00:29:15we can hypothesize

00:29:16for just a moment

00:29:17innocence

00:29:18of the three defendants

00:29:18but if this

00:29:19it is not conceivable

00:29:20as it is not

00:29:22because it finds confirmation

00:29:23in many other statements

00:29:24made with the presence

00:29:26of the defender

00:29:26I ask

00:29:27to the defenders

00:29:28this evening

00:29:29give me this explanation

00:29:30beyond the alternative routes

00:29:32that leave time

00:29:33that they find

00:29:33there is this boulder

00:29:34in a positive way

00:29:35against the defendants

00:29:36the girlfriend

00:29:37by Salvatore Larocca

00:29:38that goes there

00:29:39and to defend

00:29:39your own man

00:29:40confesses the fact

00:29:42to attribute to him

00:29:42a marginal role

00:29:43to save him

00:29:44from the probable accusation

00:29:45of murder

00:29:46that scares her

00:29:47at that moment

00:29:47this is the point

00:29:48I can answer

00:29:49allow me

00:29:50I would like to say something

00:29:51I don't know if he's asking

00:29:52Lawyer Vignola

00:29:53or the lawyer Forgioena

00:29:55but in reading

00:29:56the testimony itself

00:29:57of the Nocella

00:29:58I wonder

00:29:58how reliable can it be

00:29:59since the Nocella

00:30:00he knew Ciro Imperante

00:30:02how come he describes

00:30:03and continues to describe

00:30:04a man

00:30:05from freckles

00:30:06with red mustaches

00:30:07blond-haired

00:30:09this is what I ask myself

00:30:10how is it possible

00:30:10that the third man

00:30:11continue to be

00:30:12this one with the mustache

00:30:13and the freckles

00:30:14and subscribes

00:30:15this report

00:30:16how is it possible

00:30:18and here we are

00:30:20Excuse me

00:30:20the answer

00:30:21Dr. Vignola's response

00:30:25it's not interesting

00:30:26no okay

00:30:27he already gave it

00:30:28no he didn't give it

00:30:29Truly

00:30:30let's do it to him

00:30:30the Nocella

00:30:32he knew Ciro Imperante

00:30:34for many years

00:30:36as he knew

00:30:37Cyrus Imperante

00:30:38Salvatore Larocca

00:30:39Certain

00:30:39so why do they talk

00:30:41they give it

00:30:42a different description

00:30:43and they don't make any

00:30:44the name and surname

00:30:45they could have done it

00:30:46from the first moment

00:30:47I believe that no public prosecutor

00:30:50support an accusation

00:30:51because from supporting

00:30:53at any cost

00:30:53an accusation

00:30:54he doesn't get any from it

00:30:54absolutely nothing

00:30:55so I believe

00:30:57very frankly

00:30:58I exposed

00:30:59my doubts

00:31:01on this point

00:31:01in full debate

00:31:03and this then

00:31:03has determined

00:31:04also a series of interviews

00:31:05between me and Mrs. Imperante

00:31:08very frank

00:31:08on this point

00:31:09and then even

00:31:10I have to thank her

00:31:12because he paid tribute to me

00:31:13of adjectives

00:31:14of coherence

00:31:14and frankness

00:31:15that I wouldn't have expected

00:31:16from the sister of a convict

00:31:17but having made this premise

00:31:19I wanted to say this

00:31:20I exposed it

00:31:21to the court

00:31:22this perplexity of mine

00:31:23and I also explained

00:31:24the reasons why

00:31:25I thought I had to get over it

00:31:26why this discrepancy

00:31:28objective

00:31:29which exists in the documents

00:31:30it is specified

00:31:31first from me

00:31:32I think that

00:31:33could have been overcome

00:31:34or with the explanation

00:31:36who gave it

00:31:36the examining magistrate

00:31:39explanation that referred to

00:31:41to fear

00:31:42that he would have had

00:31:43both Mastrillo

00:31:45that the nut

00:31:46of the reactions

00:31:47of the ruling Cyrus

00:31:48which was the biggest

00:31:49of the three

00:31:49both above all

00:31:50from the circumstance

00:31:51which subsequently

00:31:52the Mastrillo

00:31:52he no longer had any reason

00:31:54that is, it is outdated

00:31:55from recognition

00:31:56from the comparison

00:31:57from all subsequent ones

00:31:59statements

00:31:59of Mastrillo and of

00:32:00by Salvatore Larocca

00:32:01so I don't think so

00:32:03Doctor Vignola

00:32:04I apologize

00:32:05I have to intervene

00:32:07the three testimonies

00:32:08converge

00:32:09on this description

00:32:12just one moment

00:32:13the three testimonies

00:32:15converge

00:32:16on this description

00:32:17Dr. Augas

00:32:18so if I'm not

00:32:19fruit of impositions

00:32:21the concordance

00:32:22on the mustache

00:32:23and on freckles

00:32:24it means

00:32:24that the third person

00:32:25he must have a mustache

00:32:27must have freckles

00:32:28if they have been made

00:32:29in a different location

00:32:31and independently

00:32:32one from the other

00:32:33the third person

00:32:34the mustache and the freckles

00:32:35he must have them

00:32:37otherwise it means

00:32:38that one spoke

00:32:39and the others

00:32:39they were forced

00:32:40to say the same things

00:32:42first there is

00:32:43first let's hear a moment

00:32:45the ready listener

00:32:46Good evening

00:32:47I'm calling from Vicenza

00:32:48good evening madam

00:32:49I ask myself one thing

00:32:51if the boys

00:32:52they are innocent

00:32:53and what interest

00:32:55would have had

00:32:55the Mastrillo

00:32:56to accuse them?

00:32:59Lawyer Serra responds

00:33:01who already wanted to talk

00:33:02then he answers

00:33:03to this question too

00:33:04Thank you

00:33:04Dr. Agios

00:33:05this process

00:33:06Unfortunately

00:33:07this process

00:33:08Unfortunately

00:33:09had

00:33:11an investigation

00:33:12wrong

00:33:13this is an investigation

00:33:15wrong

00:33:15I don't blame

00:33:16Nobody

00:33:17is that the carabinieri

00:33:19yes they are

00:33:20throw yourself away

00:33:21on the track

00:33:22of the three people

00:33:23Why

00:33:24according to them

00:33:25they were

00:33:26three girls

00:33:27that had to go

00:33:28at the appointment

00:33:29let's not forget it

00:33:31why we have to leave

00:33:32from the beginning

00:33:33of the process

00:33:34to carry on

00:33:35a serious investigation

00:33:36the girls

00:33:38the girls were

00:33:39Nunzia Munizzi

00:33:41Barbara

00:33:41the little girl

00:33:43Barbarella

00:33:44and Silvana Sasso

00:33:46Why

00:33:47but Silvana Sasso

00:33:49she had been invited

00:33:50at this conference

00:33:51from Barbara

00:33:53the Munizzi

00:33:53he didn't know anything

00:33:54and Munizzi

00:33:56she alone had

00:33:57the appointment

00:33:58with someone

00:33:59with that guy Gino

00:34:01things are going well

00:34:02That

00:34:03Corrado Enrico

00:34:05when he showed up

00:34:07and he says it himself

00:34:08moreover

00:34:09it's so stupid

00:34:10who says it

00:34:10when he showed up

00:34:12in the neighborhood

00:34:12Incis

00:34:13he says

00:34:14I was changing

00:34:15or not

00:34:16I was doing it

00:34:16call Gino

00:34:17that is, that

00:34:19what they say

00:34:19the little girls

00:34:20what happens now

00:34:22there is the description

00:34:24but there is another

00:34:25important fact

00:34:26for which

00:34:27the appointment

00:34:28it was of only one

00:34:29person

00:34:30with

00:34:32a single person

00:34:34with

00:34:35a little girl

00:34:37the little one

00:34:38the Barbarella

00:34:39poor creature

00:34:40accompanied only

00:34:42the little company

00:34:43bigger

00:34:43but he didn't have

00:34:45no interest

00:34:46he felt important

00:34:48because the little friend

00:34:49he took her with him

00:34:50but in essence

00:34:52in essence

00:34:55Dr. Augias

00:34:56please

00:34:56there is proof

00:34:57of all this

00:34:58and the proof

00:34:59who gives it

00:35:00Antonella Mastrillo

00:35:02that is, the sister

00:35:03by Mastrillo

00:35:04Antonella Mastrillo

00:35:05see these two girls

00:35:07coming out of the park

00:35:09the evening of the pact

00:35:11call

00:35:12Barbara

00:35:13Barbara

00:35:13invites her to respond

00:35:16Barbara

00:35:18he turns around

00:35:19to answer

00:35:20why Barbara

00:35:21he doesn't know anything

00:35:22Barbara

00:35:22get to the point

00:35:23he turns to answer

00:35:25what does he do

00:35:26we are not united

00:35:27takes the head

00:35:28by Barbara

00:35:29and the turn

00:35:30on the other side

00:35:31Meaning what

00:35:31does not allow

00:35:33that Barbara

00:35:34answer

00:35:34to Antonella Mastrillo

00:35:36Why

00:35:37we are not united

00:35:39he doesn't want to

00:35:40other witnesses

00:35:41of that

00:35:42what is he going to do

00:35:42of this appointment

00:35:44appointment

00:35:45childish

00:35:46appointment

00:35:46of a little girl

00:35:47which is in its infancy

00:35:49of growth

00:35:50but it's not

00:35:51that the appointment

00:35:53pits with three people

00:35:54he was with only one person

00:35:56Senator Imposimato

00:35:58look

00:35:58the question

00:35:59it's in these

00:36:00I would like to leave

00:36:00the possibility

00:36:01to the lawyer

00:36:02even after

00:36:03Lawyer Croc

00:36:03he will have all the time

00:36:04the beginning of the process

00:36:05this is it

00:36:06there is a witness

00:36:08very truthful

00:36:09and reliable

00:36:09who is Silvana Sasso

00:36:11which says

00:36:12from the very beginning

00:36:14That

00:36:14he saw

00:36:15repeatedly

00:36:16before July 2nd

00:36:17also on the 25th

00:36:18also on the 25th

00:36:21June

00:36:21previous Saturday

00:36:23he saw

00:36:24this Gino

00:36:25unmistakable

00:36:26blond

00:36:28with freckles

00:36:29with the 500

00:36:31ble

00:36:31with the lighthouse

00:36:33broken

00:36:34they saw it

00:36:35several times

00:36:36this is a point

00:36:37starting point

00:36:38from which you cannot

00:36:39regardless

00:36:39because otherwise

00:36:41we go freewheeling

00:36:42Meaning what

00:36:42machines are born

00:36:44Like this

00:36:44500 white

00:36:46126

00:36:47red

00:36:48let's give the numbers

00:36:48we have to start here

00:36:49from certain data

00:36:50the first data

00:36:51this is it

00:36:52this data

00:36:53find confirmation

00:36:54in the statements

00:36:55by Paolo Carabba

00:36:56That

00:36:57July 2nd

00:36:59he saw a 500

00:37:00ble

00:37:00who went away

00:37:01from the place

00:37:02to which

00:37:03they had gotten closer

00:37:04the two little girls

00:37:04own

00:37:05at 7.30 pm

00:37:06it is confirmed

00:37:07the circumstance

00:37:08from Mastrillo

00:37:09Antonella

00:37:10it is confirmed

00:37:11the circumstance

00:37:12from Grotta

00:37:12Virella

00:37:13the mother

00:37:14to which

00:37:15the little girl

00:37:16Antonella Mastrillo

00:37:17he said

00:37:17I saw

00:37:18the two little girls

00:37:20go out

00:37:21on a 500

00:37:22ble

00:37:22with a driver

00:37:24with a person

00:37:24on board

00:37:25so we

00:37:26practically

00:37:26these statements

00:37:27they are linked together

00:37:29they coordinate

00:37:30among themselves

00:37:31for which

00:37:31these 500

00:37:32white

00:37:33these 126

00:37:34they don't appear

00:37:35own

00:37:35in the

00:37:36let's say

00:37:36in the testimonies

00:37:38of people

00:37:38that I am

00:37:39the most reliable

00:37:39with regard to

00:37:40Mastrillo

00:37:41and I answer

00:37:41to the question

00:37:43what he did

00:37:44the question

00:37:45it's very simple

00:37:46the poor

00:37:47Mastrillo

00:37:48for good

00:37:49seven times

00:37:49I read

00:37:5027 times

00:37:52his statements

00:37:52in July

00:37:54he is being questioned

00:37:55he says he knows nothing

00:37:56and they ask him

00:37:57who is this Gino?

00:37:58because rightly so

00:37:59the carabinieri

00:38:00they orient themselves

00:38:01towards research

00:38:02by Gino

00:38:03blond

00:38:04etc.

00:38:04he is looking for

00:38:05to give an answer

00:38:06and unfortunately

00:38:08he says all the names

00:38:09by Gino

00:38:09that he knows

00:38:10then you arrive

00:38:11in August

00:38:12and it's the same thing

00:38:13have patience

00:38:14a moment

00:38:15practically

00:38:16the Mastrillo

00:38:17Antonella

00:38:18as you can see

00:38:19on file

00:38:20of the process

00:38:20there is a whole part

00:38:21of his statements

00:38:22which is compliant

00:38:23to the truth

00:38:24in the end

00:38:25invents

00:38:26this story

00:38:27of the appointment

00:38:28which is I conclude

00:38:30this is the point

00:38:31if she uses

00:38:32the verb

00:38:33invents

00:38:34and invents

00:38:34Why

00:38:35In short

00:38:36subjected

00:38:37to interrogations

00:38:38pressing

00:38:39let's say

00:38:39a bit

00:38:40rude

00:38:41invents several times

00:38:42the threats

00:38:43of arrest

00:38:43he had been arrested

00:38:46etc.

00:38:47at a certain point

00:38:48him

00:38:48let's say

00:38:49he confirms

00:38:50this story

00:38:51of the appointment

00:38:51but

00:38:52he says things

00:38:53clearly different

00:38:55from those said

00:38:55from Esposito

00:38:57Vincenzo

00:38:58and puts some names

00:38:59including that one

00:39:00of Nocella

00:39:00that has nothing to do with it

00:39:01however it is denied

00:39:03from witnesses

00:39:04which would be

00:39:05we keep talking

00:39:06we keep talking

00:39:07excuse me just a moment

00:39:08Lawyer Serra

00:39:09ready?

00:39:10are you ready?

00:39:11Excuse me

00:39:11Sam

00:39:11but here the

00:39:12please please

00:39:13I'm calling from Ostia

00:39:14Yes

00:39:15listen, I want to ask a question

00:39:17how is it possible

00:39:18That

00:39:18if I understand correctly

00:39:20from half past seven

00:39:21that they saw

00:39:22the last time

00:39:23the little girls

00:39:24Yes

00:39:24at half past eight

00:39:25that the boys

00:39:26they are surrounded

00:39:27after having done

00:39:28all those laps

00:39:29that is, an hour of time

00:39:30to make it go

00:39:32everything they did

00:39:33go back to the disco

00:39:34and tell it all

00:39:36in an hour

00:39:37eh this

00:39:38Lawyer Forgiore

00:39:40a little more than an answer

00:39:41to this one too

00:39:42Yes

00:39:43Lawyer Forgiore

00:39:43he has to give a couple of answers

00:39:45let's give it to him

00:39:47now he answers her

00:39:48with regard to

00:39:50the chronology

00:39:52and therefore the compatibility

00:39:54between trips

00:39:55and time available

00:39:57I would like to make a clarification

00:39:59Why

00:40:00in the reconstruction

00:40:01that you, Dr. Augias, did

00:40:03he spoke constantly

00:40:04of one hour maximum

00:40:07available

00:40:08and draws this

00:40:10chronological conclusion

00:40:12taking as time

00:40:14starting point

00:40:157:30 p.m.

00:40:16yes exactly

00:40:17and arrival time

00:40:19at 8.30pm

00:40:198.15pm

00:40:208.30pm

00:40:21well I have a mirror

00:40:23of the timetables

00:40:24always for love

00:40:24tell the truth

00:40:25yes but just tell me the conclusions

00:40:27ninth

00:40:27the timetables

00:40:28just the conclusions

00:40:287:30 p.m.

00:40:29it's a timetable

00:40:30let's say rather

00:40:31approximate and arbitrary

00:40:33Why

00:40:33Mercury Alexander

00:40:35he sees the girls

00:40:36the last time

00:40:36at 6.30 pm

00:40:37Mastrillo Antonella

00:40:39he sees them at 7.10pm

00:40:41Carrabba Paolo

00:40:42at 7.30 pm

00:40:44Luigi Anzivino

00:40:45at 6.30 pm

00:40:47for which

00:40:48as you see

00:40:49we have to take

00:40:51Mrs. Sellini

00:40:52what time does he see them

00:40:53lawyer

00:40:53who is the mother

00:40:54Mrs. Sellini

00:40:55it is more reliable

00:40:57of all

00:40:57Mirella Cave

00:41:14Mirella Cave

00:41:15the time

00:41:16from these testimonies

00:41:17the testimonies

00:41:18these are

00:41:19so we're off

00:41:20from 6.30pm

00:41:21at 7.30 pm

00:41:22I mean, it's not that I want to say

00:41:23that there is an exact time

00:41:24that it's 6.30pm

00:41:25but a timetable

00:41:26approximate

00:41:27between this and this

00:41:28since no one

00:41:29at that moment

00:41:29he was on a schedule

00:41:30naturally

00:41:31we can't

00:41:31to affirm

00:41:32with certainty

00:41:33whether it is

00:41:34of an hour

00:41:35an hour and a half

00:41:36or two hours

00:41:36so first point

00:41:37At that time

00:41:38if we have to

00:41:40destroy

00:41:41a reconstruction

00:41:42operated

00:41:43from a witness

00:41:44and then a specific test

00:41:46with a given

00:41:47objective

00:41:48we must have

00:41:48a certain fact

00:41:49and that is, we must say

00:41:50Certainly

00:41:51they didn't have

00:41:52available

00:41:53more than an hour

00:41:53vice versa

00:41:54this statement

00:41:55it can't be done

00:41:56for which

00:41:57the chronological aspect

00:41:59it is not like that

00:41:59to be denied

00:42:01this point

00:42:02I wanted to do

00:42:02some other

00:42:03very fast

00:42:03presentation

00:42:05very fast

00:42:05and I leave the floor

00:42:06then we have to say

00:42:07that even Mastrillo

00:42:09what does he say?

00:42:098.15pm

00:42:11then we believe

00:42:128.15pm

00:42:13the time becomes

00:42:15three quarters of an hour

00:42:16this is the point

00:42:17even 8.15pm

00:42:18we meet

00:42:19with all the times

00:42:20more or less

00:42:20but I wanted to say one thing

00:42:21sure go ahead and say it

00:42:22actually no

00:42:22we hear

00:42:23Excuse me

00:42:24you are ready

00:42:25ready

00:42:25here we are

00:42:26Good evening

00:42:27Greetings

00:42:27I am Don Antonio

00:42:29parish priest in Poirino

00:42:30of Ocice of Turin

00:42:31you want to say briefly

00:42:33how I came

00:42:34aware

00:42:35in contact

00:42:36with the three young people

00:42:37for letters

00:42:38and by telephone

00:42:40face to face

00:42:41I've never seen them

00:42:42I searched

00:42:43to be close to them

00:42:44to relieve

00:42:45a bit

00:42:45their sufferings

00:42:46and then

00:42:48I met

00:42:49the slave

00:42:50since '86

00:42:51always by letters

00:42:53prevailing

00:42:54and the Giuseppe Fortress

00:42:55only in December

00:42:56of '86

00:42:59I had read

00:43:01when they were released from prison

00:43:02for the effect

00:43:04of the times

00:43:05I had read

00:43:05that no one

00:43:06he had opened his arms to them

00:43:07much less the priests

00:43:09of those places

00:43:09of course we remembered

00:43:10Don Antonio

00:43:11we remembered it

00:43:13precisely

00:43:13go ahead

00:43:14and then

00:43:15then I then wrote

00:43:16this letter

00:43:17so that

00:43:18the slave

00:43:19he immediately accepted

00:43:20I'd love that

00:43:21a

00:43:24correspondence

00:43:24with me

00:43:25and then

00:43:26in the meantime

00:43:28then they came

00:43:29the first and the second

00:43:30process

00:43:30and from '86

00:43:32at 87

00:43:33parents too

00:43:34of all

00:43:34the three boys

00:43:35they came

00:43:36from me

00:43:36repeatedly

00:43:37they came

00:43:38the other relatives

00:43:39and me too

00:43:40I left

00:43:41not at all

00:43:42innocentist

00:43:42I was there

00:43:43I was saying

00:43:43but even if you are guilty

00:43:44Luigi

00:43:45now Christ

00:43:46it didn't stand out to you

00:43:47the lost sheep

00:43:48then a nearby socket

00:43:49Maybe it will be useful to you

00:43:51and then

00:43:52from all the interrogations

00:43:53when relatives came

00:43:54I listened to them

00:43:55but I questioned them

00:43:56I did them

00:43:57all the objections

00:43:58imaginable possible

00:43:59it can be said

00:44:00what I did to them

00:44:01a third degree

00:44:02and from all this

00:44:04Don Antonio

00:44:04to what conclusions

00:44:06did they arrive?

00:44:06I have arrived

00:44:08to have certainty

00:44:09moral

00:44:10of their complete

00:44:11innocence

00:44:12for many reasons

00:44:14also for letters

00:44:15that for three years

00:44:16they write to me

00:44:17so at a certain point

00:44:18letters

00:44:19like those

00:44:20that I receive

00:44:20and that I published

00:44:21on my periodical

00:44:24of which I am also

00:44:25director

00:44:26and then

00:44:27I said

00:44:27it's impossible

00:44:28it's impossible

00:44:29that of the boys

00:44:30Here you are

00:44:31or sadists

00:44:32or monsters

00:44:32they behave like this

00:44:33without having given

00:44:35the slightest sign

00:44:35of repentance

00:44:36she

00:44:37Excuse me

00:44:38Don Antonio

00:44:38she is a priest

00:44:39Catholic

00:44:40True?

00:44:40a Catholic priest

00:44:41parish priest

00:44:42in the diocese of Turin

00:44:43and confessed them

00:44:44these guys?

00:44:45No

00:44:46naturally

00:44:46I have never had

00:44:47the possibility

00:44:48to be able to see

00:44:49Why

00:44:49the superiors

00:44:51of the prison

00:44:52from Spoleto

00:44:53they made me understand

00:44:54that I wasn't

00:44:54welcome person

00:44:55and I don't know why

00:44:57I never could

00:44:58not even see them

00:44:59so the confession

00:45:00for letters

00:45:01and by phone

00:45:01it can't be done

00:45:02but from all

00:45:03their letters

00:45:04from everything

00:45:05I was able to

00:45:07see

00:45:08etc.

00:45:08I have the conviction

00:45:09or mathematical certainty

00:45:11and indeed

00:45:12I also had

00:45:12written in Tortora

00:45:14in '87

00:45:16and Turtle Dove

00:45:16he then spoke

00:45:17of this case

00:45:18because he too

00:45:19he saw that there was

00:45:20a little yellow

00:45:20it wasn't all peaceful

00:45:22before dying

00:45:23All right

00:45:24Antonio, thank you

00:45:25of this testimony

00:45:26which of course

00:45:27coming from a person

00:45:28like her

00:45:29has a particular

00:45:30moral value

00:45:32thank you very much

00:45:32to have intervened

00:45:34if you allow me

00:45:36the word

00:45:37Excuse me

00:45:38I would like to point out

00:45:39one thing

00:45:40if we move forward

00:45:42the discussion

00:45:42as she would like

00:45:44it didn't come out

00:45:46No

00:45:46I have to respect

00:45:47an order

00:45:48as a stranger

00:45:49you know too much

00:45:50it's better if I do it

00:45:54I want to end

00:45:55Lawyer Forgiuele

00:45:56then he has to speak

00:45:57Lawyer Croc

00:45:57I wanted to point out

00:46:00some inaccuracies

00:46:01in the reconstruction

00:46:03indirectly

00:46:04I also answer

00:46:04to Senator Imposimato

00:46:05on some observations

00:46:06both synthetic ones

00:46:07very synthetic

00:46:08first of all

00:46:09it was said

00:46:09that there have been

00:46:10of the witnesses

00:46:11that they saw

00:46:11the two little girls

00:46:12get on board

00:46:14who have declared

00:46:15of having seen

00:46:16the two little girls

00:46:16get on board

00:46:17of a blue 500

00:46:18well

00:46:19this statement

00:46:20it finds no confirmation

00:46:21in the process

00:46:21because there isn't

00:46:22no minutes

00:46:23of interrogation

00:46:24of witness examination

00:46:26by virtue of which

00:46:27some witnesses

00:46:28he declared

00:46:29of having seen this

00:46:30but I read it

00:46:31this statement

00:46:32finds it exclusively

00:46:34in the deposition

00:46:35of Grotta Mirella

00:46:37that he has not seen

00:46:39that he has not seen

00:46:39the girls go up

00:46:41which reports

00:46:42that in the evening

00:46:42we go into too much detail

00:46:44for this it had been

00:46:45more precise and concise

00:46:46but it's the mother

00:46:46of the little girls

00:46:47the mother

00:46:47but he didn't see anything

00:46:48he told her

00:46:50Antonella

00:46:50to Mastrillo

00:46:51the Mastrillo

00:46:52he heard

00:46:52in the evening

00:46:53At home

00:46:54during condolences

00:46:56some sentences

00:46:57said by Mastrillo

00:46:58and reported them

00:46:58Therefore

00:46:59the testimony

00:47:00of Mastrillo

00:47:01it is on record

00:47:02and Mastrillo

00:47:03he doesn't say anything at all

00:47:04of having seen the girls

00:47:05get on the 500 ble

00:47:07and so

00:47:07I can finish

00:47:09Please

00:47:10I would be grateful to you

00:47:11not to interrupt

00:47:12and so

00:47:13there is no other witness

00:47:15who said

00:47:15of having seen

00:47:16the girls go up

00:47:17on the 500 ble

00:47:18the only witnesses

00:47:19who speak

00:47:19of the 500 ble

00:47:20I'm Carabba Paolo

00:47:21who says he noticed

00:47:23shortly after

00:47:23pass a 500 ble

00:47:25and Anzillino Luigi

00:47:26what does he say?

00:47:27that the little girls

00:47:28they were moving away

00:47:29and at a distance

00:47:3020 meters

00:47:31he says

00:47:31of having seen

00:47:32a 500 ble

00:47:33so first inaccuracy

00:47:34which seemed to me

00:47:35obligatory

00:47:36correct

00:47:37another inaccuracy

00:47:38Silvana Stone

00:47:38he talked about it

00:47:39of the 500

00:47:40I'll speak in a moment

00:47:40by Sasso Silvana

00:47:41another inaccuracy

00:47:42which also seems interesting to me

00:47:43because it is deviant

00:47:44what is the result

00:47:46it is said that

00:47:46Corrado Enrico

00:47:47would have been found

00:47:50from the police

00:47:50after a long time

00:47:52since the beginning of the investigations

00:47:53and what did he do

00:47:54disappear the car

00:47:55subtracting it

00:47:56to a possible search

00:47:57well

00:47:57this is not true

00:47:58but who said that?

00:47:59I told myself

00:48:00it was in the reconstruction

00:48:01yes I said it

00:48:03Excuse me, lawyer

00:48:05I didn't say

00:48:06explicitly

00:48:07what she is saying

00:48:08but I presented

00:48:09actually

00:48:10things in a way

00:48:11that one could think

00:48:12while they were

00:48:13opposing the three

00:48:14at the same time

00:48:15the police

00:48:16and he did

00:48:16report

00:48:17the difference

00:48:18of the police

00:48:18Carabinieri

00:48:19I understood this

00:48:20I confirm it

00:48:21and then

00:48:23I have to call back

00:48:23attention

00:48:24on the fact

00:48:24that Corrado Enrico

00:48:25it was heard

00:48:27from the police

00:48:28the day

00:48:29July 8th

00:48:31and that is

00:48:314 days

00:48:33away

00:48:33from the discovery

00:48:34of the corpses

00:48:35July 8th

00:48:35Dr. Audo

00:48:36yes exactly

00:48:36July 8th

00:48:37and if you read

00:48:38carefully

00:48:38that report

00:48:39of interrogation

00:48:39it is detected

00:48:40that when it was heard

00:48:42had already been

00:48:42his car was searched

00:48:44because they had found

00:48:45in his car

00:48:46an earring

00:48:46and a little piece

00:48:48Of

00:48:48it's a twig

00:48:50and they asked him

00:48:51explanations

00:48:52of the earring

00:48:53and of the twig

00:48:53and in the earring

00:48:54it belonged to the girls

00:48:55in the twig

00:48:56had no connection

00:48:57so also the car

00:48:59made to disappear

00:49:00after two months

00:49:01had already been

00:49:02searched

00:49:03searched

00:49:06searched

00:49:06immediately

00:49:08after the right

00:49:09I just wanted

00:49:09report

00:49:10these are some ideas

00:49:12excuse me

00:49:12it's certain

00:49:13but unfortunately

00:49:14he knows what the difficulty is

00:49:15of this discussion

00:49:16lawyer

00:49:16Lawyer Forgione

00:49:17but do you know what it is?

00:49:19which unfortunately

00:49:20if we are generic

00:49:22we don't dig

00:49:23a spider from the hole

00:49:24if we go into details

00:49:25we have to redo the process

00:49:26what should we do

00:49:28the last answer

00:49:29that I am immodest

00:49:30I have to give it

00:49:31about Sasso Silvana

00:49:33says the senator

00:49:34who saw

00:49:35Silvana Stone

00:49:35he says he saw

00:49:36of having described

00:49:38the gino

00:49:39with which he was taken

00:49:39the appointment

00:49:40like him

00:49:41who had the 500 ble

00:49:43I looked

00:49:44just yesterday

00:49:45Excuse me

00:49:45just yesterday

00:49:46the interrogation

00:49:47and says

00:49:47that the gino

00:49:48green and dark

00:49:50I say

00:49:51that the gino

00:49:52he was Mastrillo's friend

00:49:54she describes it

00:49:55the gino

00:49:56that she is talking about

00:49:57he was a friend of Mastrillo

00:49:58while Corrado

00:49:59it certainly wasn't

00:49:59friend of Mastrillo

00:50:00and he also speaks

00:50:01of attendance

00:50:02the day before

00:50:03but this is one thing

00:50:04that she says

00:50:04but anyway

00:50:05which can be replied to

00:50:06easily

00:50:06if you give me two seconds

00:50:08so she thinks

00:50:09that the gino

00:50:09it was Luigi Schiavo

00:50:10lawyer

00:50:11the question

00:50:12it's a question

00:50:14because rightly so

00:50:15Luigi Schiavo

00:50:16he remembered

00:50:17the negative reconnaissance

00:50:18so it couldn't be

00:50:19Luigi Schiavo

00:50:20there was

00:50:20but then

00:50:21a positive reconnaissance

00:50:23by Gino

00:50:24and only

00:50:25after four interrogations

00:50:26he invented it

00:50:29with Mastrillo

00:50:30which is only

00:50:30a way

00:50:32to search

00:50:33to give the opportunity

00:50:34to the investigators

00:50:35to make a transition

00:50:36further

00:50:36because it was about

00:50:37to understand

00:50:38who was this gino?

00:50:39this is how it comes out

00:50:40this Mastrillo

00:50:41they asked him

00:50:42but who knows

00:50:42this gino

00:50:43who said

00:50:44who knows

00:50:44he is not a friend

00:50:46he is a person

00:50:47he inserts it

00:50:48in the small group

00:50:50Esposito

00:50:52Mastrillo

00:50:53and he also speaks

00:50:54of the 127

00:50:55Bech

00:50:55the Sasto Silvano

00:50:57there is the lawyer Kroh

00:50:59that he wanted

00:50:59for a long time

00:51:01say something

00:51:01I would like to say this

00:51:03resuming

00:51:04some observations

00:51:05what he had done

00:51:06Vignola

00:51:09Vignola said

00:51:10a little while ago

00:51:11I'm sorry

00:51:12I have to say something

00:51:13I would like to say

00:51:14one thing

00:51:14to the direction

00:51:15of the phone

00:51:17if it is not a question

00:51:18of phone calls

00:51:19of particular importance

00:51:20as time goes by

00:51:22it's little

00:51:22I would ask you

00:51:23to thin them out

00:51:24ready?

00:51:27the line fell

00:51:28they have it

00:51:28my wish was granted

00:51:30beyond

00:51:30of every desire

00:51:32lawyer

00:51:32Vignola recognized

00:51:34that there had been

00:51:34of the imposing

00:51:35contradictions

00:51:36in the statements

00:51:37of the Nocella

00:51:38and of Mastrillo

00:51:39which they had described

00:51:40this third young man

00:51:41in a completely

00:51:42different from the prevailing one

00:51:44but he says

00:51:45that the awards

00:51:47carried out subsequently

00:51:48they would have overcome

00:51:49these contradictions

00:51:50I say that this

00:51:51it's a reversal

00:51:52logical

00:51:53which is not allowed

00:51:54when it is given

00:51:54a life sentence

00:51:55it's the opposite

00:51:56why the reversal

00:51:57it's exactly

00:51:58the opposite

00:51:58the different description

00:52:00makes ambiguous

00:52:01and unreliable

00:52:02the awards

00:52:03it is completely

00:52:04the opposite

00:52:05of that

00:52:05what Vignola said

00:52:06I would like

00:52:08to draw attention

00:52:09on some points

00:52:09what it seems to me

00:52:10they were not

00:52:11sufficiently

00:52:12focused

00:52:13this incredible

00:52:15return

00:52:15at the disco

00:52:17to talk

00:52:18with Mastrillo

00:52:19according to the reconstruction

00:52:20of accusation

00:52:21would be motivated

00:52:22from the fact

00:52:23that was wanted

00:52:24to silence

00:52:25the Mastrillo

00:52:26about

00:52:27the appointment

00:52:28taken the day before

00:52:29with the girls

00:52:30and to which he

00:52:31he had no longer participated

00:52:32he tells us

00:52:33who were present

00:52:34to that socket

00:52:34by appointment

00:52:3512 people

00:52:36so they should have

00:52:38go and talk

00:52:39not only with Mastrillo

00:52:40but with 12 other people

00:52:4111

00:52:42Furthermore

00:52:43prevailing

00:52:44there was no day

00:52:45Before

00:52:45the appointment

00:52:46then Mastrillo

00:52:48neither him

00:52:48nor the other 11 people

00:52:50they could know

00:52:51who was involved

00:52:52in fact

00:52:53but it would have been

00:52:54brought

00:52:54to silence him

00:52:56coincidentally

00:52:56it would be him

00:52:58what he would have done

00:52:59these threats

00:53:00after confessing

00:53:02one thing

00:53:02that no one ever

00:53:03he could have known

00:53:04because he

00:53:05the day before

00:53:05there wasn't

00:53:06I would like to do

00:53:06one last observation

00:53:07on one point

00:53:08which was

00:53:09highly valued

00:53:10from the prosecution

00:53:11to send to life imprisonment

00:53:12these guys

00:53:13that little spot

00:53:14of blood

00:53:15on a handkerchief

00:53:15found in the pocket

00:53:17of the machine

00:53:18who quoted it

00:53:18it seems to me

00:53:19Lawyer Vignolo

00:53:20no but it is above all

00:53:20cited in the judgment

00:53:22as one of the elements

00:53:23the lawyer spoke

00:53:23if I remember correctly

00:53:24of streaks

00:53:25of creeping

00:53:26we should therefore

00:53:27we presume

00:53:28that in that car

00:53:29which he had transported

00:53:31two bodies

00:53:32on which they have been

00:53:33ascertained

00:53:3433 wounds

00:53:35from the tip

00:53:36and cut

00:53:37they would have

00:53:38those bodies

00:53:39left alone

00:53:40a little stain

00:53:41that with that handkerchief

00:53:42would have been removed

00:53:43this seems to me

00:53:44grotesque

00:53:44it seems to me

00:53:45the lawyer

00:53:46it has never been done

00:53:48in all this

00:53:50in the second degree

00:53:51Yes

00:53:53it would have taken

00:53:55a sheet

00:53:56not a handkerchief

00:53:57this seems to me

00:53:58grotesque

00:53:59I heard in court

00:54:00in the first degree

00:54:01the certificate

00:54:03which established

00:54:04that Joseph

00:54:05Larocca

00:54:06he had blood

00:54:07group A

00:54:08that is the same

00:54:10blood from the handkerchief

00:54:11Why

00:54:11that was the handkerchief

00:54:13with which

00:54:13Joseph Larocca

00:54:14he had bandaged himself

00:54:15the foot

00:54:15the certificate too

00:54:16doctor

00:54:17to the bathroom

00:54:18it seems to me

00:54:18of having said

00:54:19that it wasn't

00:54:19an element

00:54:20decisive

00:54:21hand

00:54:22it's just an element

00:54:23decisive

00:54:24it was for the judges

00:54:25who have condemned

00:54:26these guys

00:54:26then I would like

00:54:27do something else

00:54:29Dr. Augias

00:54:30all this

00:54:32what was happening

00:54:33it happened

00:54:34Exactly

00:54:35with timetable

00:54:37solar

00:54:38at 6.30

00:54:39of the month of July

00:54:41that is, with full sun

00:54:43in full sun

00:54:44when everyone

00:54:45they could

00:54:46and yet another

00:54:47particular

00:54:48I would like to tell you

00:54:49when she did

00:54:50the recovery

00:54:51of the

00:54:51itinerary

00:54:52where the church is

00:54:55there is the turning point

00:54:56and there is the church

00:54:57it was interrupted for him

00:54:58the road

00:54:59there was a little wall

00:55:00that divided

00:55:01the road in the middle

00:55:02and we passed by

00:55:03at alternating phases

00:55:05there was the guard

00:55:07what he was doing

00:55:09move to phase

00:55:10to the explanation

00:55:11a matter of order

00:55:13It's 11:06

00:55:14I inform you

00:55:15that I enter

00:55:16a quarter past eleven

00:55:17we have to

00:55:18ah sir

00:55:19by 11:15

00:55:20we have to close

00:55:21I have to answer now

00:55:22to this phone call

00:55:23ready?

00:55:25ah hello?

00:55:26Yes

00:55:26I am Professor Merli

00:55:27she knows me very well

00:55:29why I participated

00:55:30to your other broadcasts

00:55:31it's like an unforgettable presence

00:55:33good evening professor

00:55:34Good evening

00:55:34with regard to

00:55:37very quickly

00:55:38the thing that struck me

00:55:40from a technical point of view

00:55:41I am

00:55:42a

00:55:43the related question

00:55:44to the traces of blood

00:55:46that handkerchief?

00:55:48not only

00:55:49but when

00:55:49in a car

00:55:51whichever it was

00:55:54they are transported

00:55:55two little girls

00:55:57two human beings

00:55:58with 13 stab wounds

00:56:00a

00:56:0019 the other

00:56:01the tracks are such

00:56:03that were supposed to be

00:56:04identified

00:56:05even at considerable distances

00:56:06of time

00:56:07so obviously

00:56:09a lack of investigation

00:56:10not only

00:56:11but what they had been

00:56:13those responsible

00:56:14of a crime

00:56:14of this kind

00:56:15always committed

00:56:17with those modalities

00:56:18the quantities of blood

00:56:20that they had to

00:56:20to smear

00:56:21hands

00:56:22clothes

00:56:22etc.

00:56:23I believe

00:56:24they couldn't have

00:56:25to be

00:56:26go unnoticed

00:56:28even to friends

00:56:29to which they were given

00:56:30give testimonies

00:56:32and to other people

00:56:33that they should have

00:56:34see all this

00:56:35there is the problem

00:56:38of alcohol

00:56:38and gasoline

00:56:39that I didn't quite understand

00:56:41but above all there is

00:56:42another circumstance

00:56:43that of head trauma

00:56:44head trauma

00:56:45they were not necessary

00:56:47if the attackers

00:56:50let's define them like this

00:56:52had been

00:56:53three people

00:56:55relatively adult

00:56:57In my opinion

00:56:58head trauma

00:56:59had the meaning

00:57:01and the meaning

00:57:01to distort

00:57:02the poor little girls

00:57:04only

00:57:07commissions or not

00:57:09of the goodbyes

00:57:09about them

00:57:10for anyway

00:57:12to be able to dispose of

00:57:13of one

00:57:13and the other

00:57:14if people

00:57:15had been

00:57:16more than one

00:57:17head trauma

00:57:18they don't make sense

00:57:19in the sequel

00:57:20of events

00:57:21which have occurred

00:57:22Thank you

00:57:23it's my testimony

00:57:24thank you professor

00:57:26this thing

00:57:27lawyer Vignola

00:57:28it should make her think

00:57:29she too

00:57:29because it really struck me

00:57:31this thing

00:57:32it struck me

00:57:33I have to tell the truth

00:57:34what she had said

00:57:35it strikes me

00:57:35what he said now

00:57:36Professor Melli

00:57:37Senator Imposimato

00:57:39she had asked to speak

00:57:40But I would like to say

00:57:41if Dr. Coiro

00:57:42he agrees

00:57:43I wish it was him

00:57:44to conclude

00:57:45this

00:57:47to conclude

00:57:48with me

00:57:48if he wants

00:57:49please senator

00:57:50I would like to say this

00:57:51they referred to

00:57:53to the so-called

00:57:53confessions

00:57:54of Nocella

00:57:57Enza

00:57:57and of Mastrillo

00:57:58Now

00:57:58you can't help but come back

00:58:00on these confessions

00:58:01why the statements

00:58:02they cannot be

00:58:03defined in a certain way

00:58:05without being evaluated

00:58:06in the contents

00:58:07in the contents

00:58:09the statements

00:58:09of the Nocella

00:58:10they are full of contradictions

00:58:13and they are in conflict

00:58:15with the statements

00:58:16also of

00:58:18Salvatore Larocco

00:58:19Why?

00:58:20because he says first

00:58:21that these have arrived there

00:58:23at half past eight

00:58:23then the first statement

00:58:25of Nocella

00:58:26that the three

00:58:27they would have arrived at the house

00:58:28at half past eight

00:58:29then they were

00:58:29under his house

00:58:30or they were

00:58:31at the disco

00:58:32the first

00:58:33second

00:58:34he says that

00:58:35the boyfriend

00:58:36he moved away

00:58:37with the car

00:58:38with the 500

00:58:38while the boyfriend

00:58:40he says that instead

00:58:40he would have gone

00:58:41with the 127

00:58:42there is a huge contrast

00:58:43then this contrast

00:58:45I'm just saying two

00:58:46but there are others

00:58:47it explains itself

00:58:48with falsehood

00:58:49of both statements

00:58:50because they are statements

00:58:52that they don't have us

00:58:53in the capone

00:58:53they are inconsistent

00:58:54they are illogical

00:58:55I am

00:58:56Meaning what

00:58:56there are some contrasts

00:58:59at a certain point

00:59:01if he answers

00:59:01the lawyer

00:59:02I am trying to say

00:59:02the Nocella

00:59:03not only

00:59:04he makes those statements

00:59:05but half an hour later

00:59:06at 5.30 pm

00:59:08he claims

00:59:08a comparison

00:59:09with the other girlfriend

00:59:10of another defendant

00:59:12I mean, I mean this

00:59:14we can talk

00:59:15of mystification

00:59:16or suggestion

00:59:17in the verbalization

00:59:19as long as we limit ourselves

00:59:20to hear a person

00:59:20but when even

00:59:22it arises

00:59:22it is used

00:59:23this person

00:59:24to refute

00:59:25the reticence

00:59:26of another test

00:59:27at that moment

00:59:27that original person

00:59:29on a position

00:59:30autonomous

00:59:30of note

00:59:31of strength

00:59:31it's the Nocella

00:59:32that contests

00:59:33to the financed

00:59:34in Pimonta

00:59:34the financed one

00:59:35by Giuseppe La Rocca

00:59:37and says

00:59:37but how

00:59:38I told you

00:59:38in Castel Volturno

00:59:39that your financed

00:59:40he killed

00:59:40the two women

00:59:41why don't you say it?

00:59:42this is the attitude

00:59:43of La Rocca

00:59:43of the Nocella

00:59:44so how do you do it?

00:59:45to give an explanation

00:59:47I would like to know

00:59:50in complete serenity

00:59:52I would like to know

00:59:52from the defenders

00:59:54and from those

00:59:54which rightly

00:59:55and correctly

00:59:55they took it to heart

00:59:56this story

00:59:57the search for truth

00:59:57she's always beautiful

00:59:58there is no doubt

01:00:00but I would like to have

01:00:01a logical explanation

01:00:02of this fact

01:00:03I would like to know

01:00:03why Salvatore La Rocca

01:00:05after he would have contested

01:00:06under torture

01:00:07for four months

01:00:08he is silent

01:00:08portrayed

01:00:09he has never been questioned

01:00:12there is a model 13

01:00:13to prison

01:00:14which allows

01:00:15to any defendant

01:00:17to speak immediately

01:00:18with the employee

01:00:19courtesy

01:00:19Dr. Augias

01:00:20if I may intervene

01:00:22a moment

01:00:22to answer Dr. Vignola

01:00:25Dr. Vignola

01:00:26strangely

01:00:27Luigi Schiavo

01:00:28Cyrus Imperante

01:00:31Joseph La Rocca

01:00:32they were questioned

01:00:34all three

01:00:34in the Poggio Reale prison

01:00:36immediately after

01:00:36strangely

01:00:37only Salvatore

01:00:38No

01:00:39it is not possible to understand

01:00:41Why

01:00:41Salvatore La Rocca

01:00:42he was questioned

01:00:43the first time

01:00:44by the investigating judge

01:00:45at the first interrogation

01:00:47in March

01:00:48and at the first interrogation

01:00:49he reported

01:00:50what he had suffered

01:00:51at the first interrogation

01:00:52why the others

01:00:53three yeses and Salvatore no

01:00:54what was feared

01:00:56why he was not questioned

01:00:57but I want

01:00:57to point this out

01:00:58in the judge's action

01:00:59and it's all explained to me

01:01:00for goodness sake

01:01:01Dr. Augias

01:01:02allow me

01:01:03these 30 seconds

01:01:05there is Chiaiello

01:01:06there is Mrs. Chiaiello

01:01:07then immediately after

01:01:07and then we close

01:01:0830 seconds

01:01:09a clarification

01:01:10on the problem of machines

01:01:12we talked

01:01:13up to now still

01:01:13of this white 500

01:01:15but if Mastrillo himself

01:01:16in one of the many interrogations

01:01:19at the moment in which

01:01:20describes

01:01:21July 5th

01:01:22of that 6

01:01:22he writes

01:01:23his friends

01:01:24with their machines

01:01:25he states

01:01:26that Giuseppe Larocca

01:01:27he rode his black Vespa

01:01:28because his white 500

01:01:30it was under repair

01:01:31in that period

01:01:32for which he could not dispose

01:01:34of that car

01:01:34he was without documents

01:01:37the white 500

01:01:38because it had been stolen

01:01:39but I would like to point out

01:01:43just one thing

01:01:44when Mastrillo

01:01:45he is being questioned

01:01:46in court

01:01:47it takes a long time

01:01:47deposition

01:01:48of retraction

01:01:49then comes

01:01:52warned

01:01:53from the public prosecutor

01:01:54by Giambattista Vignolo

01:01:56of arrest

01:01:58etc.

01:01:58he is arrested

01:02:00when asked

01:02:01but why you

01:02:02then you did

01:02:03that deposition

01:02:04what does he answer?

01:02:06who responds

01:02:06he answers

01:02:07because I was scared

01:02:08of threats

01:02:09of rulers

01:02:10but how

01:02:10you are not afraid

01:02:12you're afraid of jail

01:02:13and you are not afraid

01:02:14to die

01:02:15you see what justification

01:02:18idiot

01:02:19it is given to this

01:02:20I am trying to say

01:02:22to this confession

01:02:24Lawyer

01:02:24Doctor Coio

01:02:25I got it

01:02:26an impression

01:02:27from this debate

01:02:29that this is a case

01:02:30that is played

01:02:31All

01:02:31on a series

01:02:33of statements

01:02:34and testimonies

01:02:34that you can't do

01:02:35in no way

01:02:36to make it coincide

01:02:38Together

01:02:38for which

01:02:39if you look at it

01:02:40on one side

01:02:40it means one thing

01:02:41if you look

01:02:42on the other side

01:02:43it means another one

01:02:44to what conclusion

01:02:45shall we arrive?

01:02:46but I would say

01:02:48the first reflection

01:02:50is that it is extremely

01:02:52difficult

01:02:52the power

01:02:54judge

01:02:55of a process

01:02:56in a few words

01:02:58how it happens

01:02:59it's difficult

01:03:00we can

01:03:01only

01:03:01to flash

01:03:03some flashes

01:03:04but we can't

01:03:05to do it

01:03:05an idea

01:03:06precise

01:03:07of that

01:03:08that happened

01:03:09in our case

01:03:11it doesn't seem like it to me

01:03:13so exact

01:03:13what she says

01:03:14that the testimonies

01:03:15no yes

01:03:17they fit together

01:03:18because rather

01:03:19I would say that

01:03:19the whole construction

01:03:20of the sentence

01:03:21it's just

01:03:22on this possibility

01:03:23of interlocking

01:03:24of the testimonies

01:03:24but the fit

01:03:25succeeds

01:03:26if they are taken

01:03:27certain testimonies

01:03:28and they are excluded

01:03:28of the others

01:03:29so much so that it is true

01:03:30that the lawyer

01:03:31it doesn't seem like it to me

01:03:34it doesn't seem like it to me

01:03:35not even exact

01:03:35This

01:03:36Why

01:03:38In short

01:03:39I don't like

01:03:40assume

01:03:41a position

01:03:42accusatory

01:03:43but here it is

01:03:43I take a position

01:03:45of explanation

01:03:46of the sentence

01:03:47Why

01:03:47let's not forget it

01:03:48there are three sentences

01:03:50who have condemned

01:03:51how many judges

01:03:52it's not just one

01:03:53it's not just one

01:03:54if we put

01:03:55public prosecutor

01:03:57and examining magistrate

01:03:588 in session

01:04:00first degree

01:04:018 in session

01:04:02second degree

01:04:03and Cassation

01:04:06united section

01:04:07of the Court of Cassation

01:04:08so I am

01:04:087

01:04:0918 and 7

01:04:1125 judges

01:04:12miscarriages of justice

01:04:13I'm always

01:04:14the result

01:04:15of the exam

01:04:15of 25 judges

01:04:16Excuse me

01:04:17I question him

01:04:18hate

01:04:18sometimes

01:04:19they stop

01:04:19sometimes

01:04:20they stop

01:04:20Before

01:04:21sometimes

01:04:22we have more

01:04:23why it was changed

01:04:24the process

01:04:25from the Court of Cassation

01:04:26first section

01:04:27where he had been

01:04:28I am trying to say

01:04:29After

01:04:30in this process

01:04:31maybe a small one

01:04:32overview

01:04:33there is an initial

01:04:35investigation

01:04:36broad spectrum

01:04:37that goes

01:04:38to take

01:04:39all the deviants

01:04:39sexual in the area

01:04:40the exhibitionists

01:04:42drug addicts

01:04:46the guards

01:04:48etc.

01:04:49and then

01:04:49they are taken

01:04:50among these

01:04:50it also comes

01:04:51examined

01:04:52that

01:04:53Corrado Enrico

01:04:54if not that then

01:04:55we're coming back

01:04:56at the start

01:04:56and it is enhanced

01:04:58the testimony

01:04:58of that little girl

01:04:59Silvana Stone

01:05:00what he had said

01:05:02that the two little girls

01:05:03they had an appointment

01:05:04the next day

01:05:05and I would say that

01:05:06this is a fact

01:05:06Pacific

01:05:07because he admits it

01:05:08the same

01:05:08the Salvatore Fortress

01:05:09even when retracted

01:05:11Exactly

01:05:12admits

01:05:12of having had

01:05:13the appointment

01:05:14Saturday

01:05:15of having taken

01:05:16the appointment

01:05:16of having seen

01:05:17the retraction

01:05:18it's partial

01:05:19Exactly

01:05:19it's partial

01:05:19of having seen

01:05:20the little girls

01:05:20Saturday

01:05:21so this appointment

01:05:22Saturday

01:05:22I would say that

01:05:24it's peaceful

01:05:26it's not like that

01:05:28it's absolutely not like that

01:05:31him

01:05:32is seen

01:05:33together with the girls

01:05:35the two little girls

01:05:38which testify

01:05:39they say

01:05:39that the little victims

01:05:41they had taken

01:05:42appointment

01:05:42for the next day

01:05:43the Salvatore Fortress

01:05:45admits the meeting

01:05:46of Saturday

01:05:46admit one thing

01:05:47which he then retracts

01:05:48but

01:05:49No

01:05:49after the first retraction

01:05:53admits

01:05:54This

01:05:55then retracted

01:05:56then retracted

01:05:57then retracted

01:05:59this too

01:05:59Anyway

01:06:00there is a series

01:06:01of discrepancies

01:06:04and off we go

01:06:05from this

01:06:05then the three boys

01:06:07the three boys

01:06:07they are also indicated

01:06:08like those

01:06:11that they used to

01:06:12frequent the area

01:06:13because they were hooking up

01:06:14the little girls

01:06:15they are indicated

01:06:16even in this way

01:06:17there is a whole series

01:06:19of indications

01:06:21that brings them

01:06:22which brings

01:06:22these three boys

01:06:23When

01:06:24and there is

01:06:25a posito

01:06:27Vincenzo

01:06:28which is the first

01:06:28who speaks

01:06:29but speaks partially

01:06:30he only says

01:06:31of the appointment

01:06:32and at the appointment

01:06:33it is known that it is present

01:06:34also Mastrillo

01:06:35and Mastrillo

01:06:36after 14 interrogations

01:06:38who didn't say anything

01:06:39that is, it's not that

01:06:39he speaks like this

01:06:40Mastrillo tells

01:06:42he is arrested

01:06:42and after the story

01:06:43by Mastrillo

01:06:44it is confirmed

01:06:45from Rocca Salvatore

01:06:46it is confirmed

01:06:47from Nocella

01:06:48it is then confirmed

01:06:50from the other girlfriend

01:06:50In short

01:06:51there is a series

01:06:52of testimonies

01:06:53let's finish

01:06:54your neck

01:06:54and then the series

01:06:55then he speaks

01:06:56I am trying to say

01:06:57one minute

01:06:58what can be complained about

01:07:00in this process

01:07:01it's the lack

01:07:02of technical investigations

01:07:04this is a big truth

01:07:09it has not been done

01:07:10a technical assessment

01:07:11complete

01:07:12on the 127

01:07:13to see

01:07:14if by chance

01:07:15it was possible

01:07:16find blood stains

01:07:17even after

01:07:18a possible wash

01:07:19because if it had been used

01:07:20for that

01:07:21it had definitely been washed

01:07:22but

01:07:22it had to be done

01:07:24this finding

01:07:25it's not done

01:07:26the assessment

01:07:26on the ground

01:07:27where the girls

01:07:29they would have been killed

01:07:30to see

01:07:31if they are found

01:07:31traces of blood

01:07:32even though it is

01:07:33was taken

01:07:34the sand

01:07:34even though it is

01:07:37was taken

01:07:38the sand

01:07:38it's not done

01:07:39the assessment

01:07:40on himself

01:07:40they were burned

01:07:42with alcohol

01:07:42or gasoline

01:07:43and this was what was needed

01:07:44to check

01:07:46goodness

01:07:49of confession

01:07:56the shit hypothesis

01:07:58was advanced

01:07:59in court

01:08:00we discussed it

01:08:00but then abandoned

01:08:01Like this

01:08:02undoubtedly

01:08:03these findings

01:08:04or they would have

01:08:04corroborated

01:08:05the accusation

01:08:06or they would have

01:08:07carried

01:08:07the accusation

01:08:08I would like

01:08:08that it closed

01:08:09she

01:08:10very objectively

01:08:12Dr. Coiro

01:08:14he highlighted

01:08:15the elements

01:08:16of accusation

01:08:16and the voids

01:08:17of the process

01:08:18I would like

01:08:19add

01:08:19just this

01:08:20that when

01:08:21the elements

01:08:21of accusation

01:08:22reside

01:08:23in the statements

01:08:24of people

01:08:25what they said

01:08:25and cancelled

01:08:26in the process

01:08:27their value

01:08:28procedural

01:08:29it is non-existent

01:08:30if it is not verified

01:08:31through

01:08:32those investigations

01:08:33that really

01:08:34Dr. Coiro

01:08:35had suggested

01:08:35so those statements

01:08:37said and unsaid

01:08:38that they didn't carry

01:08:39an intrinsic validity

01:08:41why they showed up

01:08:42confused

01:08:43contradictory

01:08:44contrasting

01:08:45with objective elements

01:08:46they couldn't

01:08:47alone

01:08:48stop

01:08:49the assessment

01:08:50of the truth

01:08:50once again

01:08:51we find ourselves in front of

01:08:52to a case

01:08:53so

01:08:53it happened

01:08:55several times

01:08:56in the past

01:08:56of this broadcast

01:08:58in which

01:08:58the yellow

01:08:59to call him

01:09:00with just one word

01:09:01a little vulgar

01:09:02the element

01:09:04of unpaid

01:09:05Depends

01:09:06from the fact

01:09:06which technically

01:09:07investigations

01:09:08and legal procedures

01:09:10they were made

01:09:11in a manner

01:09:11not complete

01:09:12not exhaustive

01:09:13guilty

01:09:14or innocent

01:09:15the law

01:09:15a sentence

01:09:16past

01:09:16in res judicata

01:09:17wants

01:09:18these three

01:09:18Boys

01:09:19guilty

01:09:19the lawyer

01:09:20Krog

01:09:21he advanced

01:09:23an instance

01:09:23of revision

01:09:24based

01:09:24on facts

01:09:25new

01:09:25there is one

01:09:27hope

01:09:27a possibility

01:09:28Lady

01:09:29prevailing

01:09:30which I thank

01:09:31again

01:09:31of having come

01:09:32here

01:09:32there is a possibility

01:09:33that this process

01:09:35come again

01:09:35redone

01:09:35I tell her

01:09:36my idea

01:09:37on the basis

01:09:38of these elements

01:09:39that we have

01:09:40examined

01:09:40this evening

01:09:41I don't know

01:09:41if it would arrive

01:09:43to a truth

01:09:44different

01:09:45from that

01:09:45that 25 magistrates

01:09:47they already have

01:09:47but this

01:09:48independently

01:09:49from the fact

01:09:50that they are

01:09:51Truly

01:09:51guilty

01:09:52or not

01:09:52because now

01:09:53things

01:09:53they are put

01:09:55in a way

01:09:55what it seems to me

01:09:56difficult to overturn

01:09:57what does he say?

01:09:58but the elements

01:09:59new

01:10:00must be

01:10:01such

01:10:01let's not talk about it

01:10:02ninth

01:10:02I don't talk about it

01:10:03I don't want to talk about it

01:10:04absolutely

01:10:05anyway I know

01:10:06alright

01:10:07I of articles

01:10:08of criminal procedure

01:10:09It's not that I understand anything about it

01:10:10Very

01:10:10anyway I know

01:10:11what new elements

01:10:12that alone

01:10:13or added

01:10:14to other elements

01:10:16In short

01:10:18they demonstrate

01:10:18that the boys

01:10:19that the defendant

01:10:20in short it's strange

01:10:21that is, practically

01:10:22you can also

01:10:23review a little

01:10:24what has not been done

01:10:26look

01:10:27I'm sure of one thing

01:10:28what he said before

01:10:29Vignola and Foggiuele

01:10:30which surely

01:10:31it was not a conspiracy

01:10:32of the judges

01:10:32on this

01:10:33it may have been a mistake

01:10:34but surely

01:10:35it's not a conspiracy

01:10:36so

01:10:36if these new elements

01:10:37There are

01:10:38and I hope

01:10:39for you

01:10:39for justice

01:10:40let's say there are

01:10:41the new process

01:10:43added to other elements

01:10:44already existing

01:10:45in the process

01:10:46we close here

01:10:47this program

01:10:48thank you sir

01:10:49we close here

01:10:49this program

01:10:50we suspend

01:10:51for a few weeks

01:10:52this broadcast

01:10:53which will resume

01:10:53as I said at the beginning

01:10:54Tuesday

01:10:55no more Fridays

01:10:56Tuesday, January 16

01:10:58for a small series

01:10:59of 5 or 6 episodes

01:11:01Thank you

01:11:02and Merry Christmas

01:11:03thank you all

01:11:33thank you all

01:12:05thank you all

01:12:08thank you all

01:12:38thank you all

01:12:59thank you all

01:13:19thank you all

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