Dopo l'intervista ad Alberto Franceschini continua il viaggio di MIXER nel terrorismo degli anni di piombo con una puntata speciale del 1991: protagonisti i terroristi dei Nuclei Armati Rivoluzionari Francesca Mambro e Valerio Fioravanti, e il padre di quest'ultimo. Spazio anche alla cronaca del 30 aprile 1993, con il lancio delle monetine a Bettino Craxi fuori dall'hotel Raphaël, dove era presente proprio la telecamera di Mixer con la cronista Valeria Coiante; una giornata diventata simbolo dell'inchiesta Mani Pulite e della fine della Prima Repubblica. Giovanni Minoli propone i Faccia a faccia avuti in carcere con i due leader dei NAR, che si sono uniti in matrimonio nel 1985. Insieme a quella di Francesca Mambro, dal colpo di fulmine per Fioravanti a 16 anni all'arresto il 5 marzo nel 1982, viene ripercorsa la parabola di Valerio Fioravanti, da bambino prodigio dello sceneggiato televisivo "La famiglia Benvenuti" – con la testimonianza di Edwige Fenech, che fu accanto a lui nel film "Grazie nonna" – a leader dell'eversione nera, a capo di una formazione che, per numero di omicidi, è seconda solo alle Brigate Rosse. Una storia che parte dalla sua militanza politica nel Movimento Sociale Italiano, dove incontrerà Francesca, con la quale condividerà gli anni del terrore e poi della detenzione, fino ad arrivare all'omicidio nel 1978 del militante di Lotta Continua Roberto Scialabba, la sua prima vittima, e all'arresto nel gennaio 1981 dopo essere stato gravemente ferito a seguito dell'uccisione di due carabinieri. Tra confessioni, bilanci e prospettive, Fioravanti affronta anche il rapporto coi genitori e con il fratello Cristiano, anche lui partecipe di molti attentati, prima di diventare testimone chiave dell'accusa in molti processi. Il padre di Fioravanti, Mario, in studio commenta con Minoli le parole del figlio, raccontandone i contrasti e le divergenze e il dramma di una generazione di genito
#NAR #Fioravanti #Mambro #Crime #TrueCrime #Delitti #Misteri #Killer #SerialKiller #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Mistero #Delitto #Documentari #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DivinumCrime
#NAR #Fioravanti #Mambro #Crime #TrueCrime #Delitti #Misteri #Killer #SerialKiller #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Mistero #Delitto #Documentari #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DivinumCrime
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TVTrascrizione
00:27The journey into the Years of Lead
00:29Or after Alberto Franceschini, founder of the Red Brigades
00:32Today we tell the story of Valerio Fioravanti and Francesca Mambro
00:37The two leaders of the black terrorism of the NAR
00:39The revolutionary armed nuclei
00:41But to begin with, 30 years later
00:44Coins were thrown at Craxi in front of the Raffer Hotel.
00:47And this is the chronicle of those hours
00:52And it's April 29th 93
00:54In the midst of Tangentopoli
00:56Parliament denies authorization to proceed against Craxi
01:00For four of the six proceedings against him
01:04As part of the Clean Hands investigation
01:0624 hours later Craxi is alone in front of the Hotel Raffer
01:11Where he lives and talks to journalists
01:13Meanwhile, those who pass by call for him in Piazzale Loreto
01:17The House responded with a vote in full freedom of conscience
01:25As I imagine myself
01:26And he accepted at least part of the reasons I had put forward.
01:32And that these were absolutely valid reasons.
01:36They were founded in law
01:38They were founded in politics
01:42Since it is now almost a historical political process
01:46To a whole period of the country
01:49That Italy has gone through
01:52At least when I had the most responsibilities
01:55Moving from a phase of great difficulty
01:59Well, can you hear them?
02:03This would be the people
02:06These are the lynchings
02:08Alcantio said
02:12Luckily, Italy does not have the death penalty.
02:14A few hours and we are in the afternoon
02:16In Piazza Navona, Chillochetto, secretary of the PDS
02:19He harangues the crowd
02:20The Mixer crew is there with Valeria Cogliante
02:23Rome, Friday, April 30
02:25Betrayal said signs at 4
02:26And now, it's 5 o'clock
02:28While Fini speaks in Piazza Colonna
02:30Preparations are underway for the rally organized by the PDS
02:33Which will be held in an hour
02:34Here, it's a quarter past six.
02:35Rutelli has also arrived
02:37One of the missionary ministers of the Ciampi government
02:44They amazed us
02:45This is the signal to tell the Senate
02:48Do not give permission to proceed against Andrea
02:51The country is tired
02:54Sex is
02:54Here he is, here he is, Chetto
02:56At half past six he arrives
02:58Amid the applause of the crowd
02:59Dear comrades,
03:02Our country is experiencing
03:06One of the most serious hours in its history
03:09It's not to give up
03:11But it's for a change
03:13Because if not, we won't even be there for a minute.
03:16In the government
03:17Here's the lesson
03:19That we gave to the entire left
03:22And to the whole country
03:23In these 24 hours
03:25We come from Piazza Navona
03:26It's half past seven
03:28We are in front of the Rafa hotel
03:29And this is what's happening
03:31Waiting for Craxi to come out of that door
03:33Bravo, bravolo, bravolo, bravolo
03:37But it's only for you
03:41And you are not surrounded
03:43And not knowing what you saw
03:45And and
03:46Well done, well done, well done
03:49Come on, come on, come on, come on
04:15Here the feeling is that something is about to explode
04:19There is an atmosphere of tangible danger
04:23Danger to all
04:24For the people who crowd here in front
04:27It's 8 or 5
04:31Bettino Craxi is expected to leave at any moment.
04:44The atmosphere is heating up
04:46The police were forced to put on their helmets
04:49Because one of them was injured with an object that was thrown at him
04:54These are moments of enormous tension
04:58People continue to flock in great numbers
05:02Many are coming from the demonstration that just ended in Piazza Navona
05:06From that street there
05:27There it is! There it is! There it is!
05:32They're throwing everything
05:34They're throwing everything
05:40Attention! Attention!
05:43Attention!
05:45Here, they're coming at us too.
05:47Coins, everything, everything, they throw everything
06:02The demonstration
06:04It seems to be ending happily and peacefully.
06:08The ground is littered with coins
06:11And also, unfortunately, shards of glass
06:15They also threw glass bottles
06:178pm in the newsroom of the unit
06:19Oh my God! Then we're going to hurl ourselves!
06:23The hurrah of Italy
06:25Or the hurrah of the new Italy?
06:26The hurrah of the new Italy
06:27What is the kingdom with what happened today
06:29Awesome! This title was made with the Mixer crew.
06:32I have a doubt that it was a title that does not admit Kingdom
06:36Listen, what's the most important political news of the day for you?
06:39Let's say, it looms in the elections in October
06:42This is the first news
06:44The other big news is the country's reactions to the failed trial of Craxi
06:51The night before Berlusconi had gone to visit Craxi
06:54To compliment you on the lack of authorization to proceed
06:57And our microphones had said
06:59I am happy that there was this vote by the House.
07:05Because I have always been a friend and witness of the Honorable Craxi
07:09And so I'm happy for him
07:33So, Mr. Fioravanti, are you really not sorry for anything?
07:39I don't like the word repentant because it doesn't make much sense
07:42There are many things I don't like, many things I definitely did wrong.
07:45So, let's put it this way, if you could go back, would you do exactly everything you did?
07:50This is a question I don't like.
07:51There's no going back
07:53At the maximum limit
07:56I would say yes for a very simple reason.
07:58If I went back in the exact same conditions
08:00If the same things happened
08:01I would probably have the same reactions
08:02But this is obvious
08:03In short, if the time machine were extremely faithful
08:05I think few things would change
08:07Going back 30 years
08:08Seeing things with different eyes than when I was 15
08:12Things would definitely change
08:13The images you have seen contain the life story of Giuseppe Valerio Fioravanti
08:20Said Giusva
08:21From child prodigy of television drama
08:25The Benvenuti family you saw
08:26A leader of the black and NAR versions
08:29He was a key defendant in the Bologna massacre trial.
08:33And the disturbing journey traveled by a boy
08:37As we said, next door
08:39This evening we decided to retrace our steps
08:43That itinerary is like in a time machine
08:47We found Giusva on the film set
08:51I made a film called Thank You Grandma
08:54In Tiregna
08:57And there was this beautiful baby
09:03There was a teenager because I think he was 15 years old
09:12He was handsome, above all nice.
09:16With mischievous, very particular eyes
09:21He was a special child because he had been chosen for this role
09:25Also because he was a boy quite different from all the others
09:29He is very intelligent
09:32He is very polite
09:35A very affectionate boy
09:37I met Valerio Giusva
09:41He was there with his father
09:44And then at a certain point I remember meeting the other two brothers too
09:51That is, Cristiano and then the little girl
09:54Which will now be a woman of course
09:56A beautiful family
09:58Of boys who are very respectful towards their father
10:03Extremely polite
10:05They felt that they were well-bred boys.
10:11It never seemed to me that there was a family disagreement
10:18I mean, it seemed to me like it was a completely normal family unit.
10:21I was a difficult son but basically a good one.
10:25As a son
10:26In the sense that my relationships with my parents have always been extremely correct.
10:29Extremely sincere
10:30Maybe I created a lot of problems because I always talked to them about everything
10:33I'm not one of those who hid things from him.
10:35They knew almost everything
10:36But she believes that the education received at home
10:39Did it contribute to his political choices or not?
10:45I do not know
10:46I think this is inevitable.
10:48If you asked any psychoanalyst
10:50He would tell him it's obvious
10:51I think so and paradoxically in a good way
10:53I had a great relationship with my family
10:55Conflicts especially with my father
10:57In the sense that we didn't get along.
10:58But it's also true that I could talk about any topic with them.
11:01Mario Fioravante
11:02Father of Giusva
11:03So Mr. Fioravanti
11:04How much, if anything, do you feel responsible for your son's political choices?
11:10Ah, I don't feel responsible at all for political choices.
11:12Not at all
11:12Absolutely
11:13I just tried to teach my son honesty.
11:16The correctness
11:18And not the scam
11:21The tabbenaggine
11:22The playing around according to convenience
11:25Always loyalty
11:26Here Giusva said that you two talked about everything
11:29But you didn't get along
11:31So what exactly did you disagree with most?
11:35But we disagreed at the beginning
11:38When he started to do, let's say, politics
11:40And then I didn't agree with this at all.
11:43Ah, this was the basic point of your disagreement?
11:45Yes the step for the rest there was nothing
11:46No because her son said that she is unpleasant because she is self-centered and presumptuous.
11:52But why such a harsh judgment?
11:55But he almost always says this
11:56Oh yeah?
11:57Because I oppose it
11:58Oh
11:59I oppose him in those things that I believe are not excessively right and correct.
12:03So is that where this judgment comes from?
12:05Yes but I think that this judgment arises, this conflict exists between all sons and all fathers.
12:11Years go by, the political climate has changed
12:13With 77 the clashes between the right-wing youths and the youths are renewed and become increasingly harsh.
12:19left
12:41A comrade of Banqua was from FIGICI
12:43A girl from the workers' autonomy group gave me my Ladin homework.
12:47There wasn't this hate problem at all.
12:48The absurd thing was precisely this
12:49In short, after all, we were together in class.
12:51We loved each other, we passed homework to each other, we teased each other.
12:55Perhaps there was more hatred for good schoolmates.
12:59For the nerds, for...
13:01I remember there was a friend who was...
13:03He went to mass too often, in my opinion the hatred
13:06It was us extremists, right and left, against the normal
13:09Then, in the evening we would meet and have a fight.
13:13That's because, okay, guys...
13:14A fight that turned into...
13:16Which then became beaten, beaten, stabbed, shot
13:19Raffica is something that has grown over the years
13:21Here Mr. Fioravanti, in all this time
13:23As his son passed by, as we said
13:25As he himself said, from fistfights to machine gun fire
13:29Where was she?
13:31Where was I? At home
13:32Was he at home but didn't notice anything?
13:35I noticed everything
13:36Only, as I repeat, he never listened to me.
13:41Yet, his son says that you talked about everything
13:45What were you talking about? Did he tell you these things?
13:48No, he told them to me
13:50No, he didn't tell me.
13:51I saw them, I understood them, I sensed them
13:54And of course I opposed them.
13:56I am the father who always told him
13:58But what do you want to do?
13:59This is a road that takes you nowhere
14:01In Italy it can't be done
14:03And so you were talking about that too?
14:05Sure, sure
14:06But did he tell him about his actions?
14:08No, no, not of his actions.
14:10In the political mentality
14:12It's not even true that it started in a political way
14:15Because it started to go to press on my little brother
14:18In short, I was the big brother
14:19Who got into the car with his mother in the evening
14:21I went to look for him to see if anything had happened to him.
14:24This is how it was born
14:26Then came the clashes
14:28But the clash, I have always defined it
14:30A somewhat uneven ball route
14:32With a mechanism
14:33Almost by chance, finding oneself in such an absolute mechanism
14:38So radical?
14:39Well, sure.
14:40If one has a calling to be an angel
14:42It probably won't fall for it
14:44However, I think that a lot of it is due to chance.
14:46This yes
14:48Well, what he says is terrible.
14:50No, if one does not hide behind this
14:53And he doesn't consider it an excuse or a mitigating factor.
14:55No, I think that chance has a big weight on all of us.
14:58In all human beings
14:59My case led me in that direction
15:01And this does not exempt me from certain responsibilities.
15:03I don't consider it an excuse or a mitigating factor.
15:06It's a case
15:07If my brother hadn't made that choice
15:09Or if as my sister used to say
15:10Instead of being in Rome we were in Florence or Naples
15:12Absolutely nothing happens
15:14Mr. Fioravanti
15:15But is it possible that all this really happened just by chance?
15:19Do you believe in that of Jesus Philip?
15:21Yes, yes
15:22Yes, yes
15:22The case
15:23We need to see what is meant by chance
15:25At a certain point
15:26The episode of H. Larenzia
15:28That was the deciding factor.
15:30This business of killing kids
15:32It's a mechanism
15:33Oh, sure.
15:33Here, but she agrees that if you had lived in Naples or Florence
15:37Nothing would have happened
15:39Have you ever thought about it?
15:41I thought about it because I knew the climate in Rome at that time.
15:45So the motivations were ultimately very tenuous.
15:47The reasons for these...
15:49They weren't that unstable
15:50No, if just being in another city was enough to not...
15:53And it was enough to be in another city where what happened in Rome didn't happen.
15:57Well, but why do you think your son became an extremist, regardless of everything?
16:03Have you ever wondered?
16:05But I may have also asked myself that and probably never found a logical explanation
16:11Undoubtedly his temperament, his intelligence too
16:15When he saw certain facts that he felt were not right and were not good
16:21And it led him to oppose them, to oppose them in every way.
16:24With the fistfight, then with the pistol, then with the machine gun and then...
16:29With the dead
16:30Yes, even with the dead
16:31With a supposed revolution, with an attempt to make a revolution
16:34To change things, right?
16:36This is the room...
16:37We need to change these things
16:39However, it is precisely by doing political activity
16:43In the youth sections of the MSI
16:45That Fioravanti knows Francesca Mambro
16:47The woman of his life
16:49With whom he will share the years of terror
16:51And then the years of detention, of prison
16:56But my wife is louder than me
16:57It gets more noticeable, perhaps
16:59Screaming gets angry more easily
17:25But my wife is more
17:36When did she meet her husband?
17:40So, I met him when I was 16.
17:43In what context?
17:44In a context of boys
17:48In our age, in a section, I remember
17:52But was it hit immediately or was it a slow thing?
17:55No, I was immediately struck, we looked into each other's eyes
17:59Immediately?
18:00Yes, love at first sight
18:02Absolutely
18:02Yes, then we loved each other from a distance
18:04And did she realize she loved him right away?
18:07Or not?
18:08Well, it was a strong crush, I took it immediately
18:12I met her through arguing
18:15Making fun of her
18:17Going back to the previous question a little
18:18Because I supported them publicly
18:21That she should have committed suicide
18:24In keeping with his ideas
18:25Because according to the ideas he had
18:26He couldn't live among the fascists
18:28This contradiction is so serious
18:30That the only way you'll ever get around this
18:33It will be to commit suicide
18:34Why couldn't he live?
18:36Because she is not a fascist
18:37It has nothing to do with fascists
18:39He has too many ideas
18:41Too clean
18:45Too modern
18:46To stay in the environment he was in
18:47And paradoxically it's the same reason
18:49So she actually noticed me
18:51Because he had noticed that within the discussions
18:53I was also attacked for the same reason.
18:55Just that there and then
18:56We hadn't noticed
18:58Of this similarity of ours
18:59And we used to see each other a little bit.
19:01But she and her husband
19:02If you had to define it
19:03How would you define it?
19:04They give a definition
19:05With three adjectives
19:07I do not know
19:07That is, a synthetic definition
19:09I think he is one of the most sensitive people
19:11That I met
19:12And this is the thing that struck you most about her right away?
19:19I do not know
19:19I do not know
19:20Because I saw it the first time
19:22And it struck me immediately
19:23From the first time
19:24Without even knowing
19:25Without knowing who he was
19:26Without even having spoken to her
19:28It's probably a certain attitude
19:29It's a certain presence
19:31It's a certain ability to be with men
19:34In short, in an environment
19:35Where women usually
19:36They're in a corner
19:37In short, his
19:39Being there among the others
19:40Without feeling inferior
19:42Without feeling any way
19:45Vassal of no one
19:46It struck me right away
19:47Since he was 16 years old
19:48The first time I saw her
19:49Here's the Saturday night brawl
19:51In the meantime it has transformed into something more
19:54The level of conflict
19:55As they used to say then
19:56He's about to get up
19:57The first deaths
19:58They start falling in the streets
20:00And then it's no longer enough
20:02Nor the knife
20:03Nor the stick
20:05I do not know
20:06I don't know why to know
20:10I should go look
20:13To do a rather macro job
20:15That is, go and look
20:16Ballistic assessments
20:17I understand
20:17But then the first time
20:18What do you think?
20:19So as I was telling you
20:21I do not know
20:21And I don't tell him anyway.
20:23Why?
20:24Because in my opinion
20:26Between the responsibility
20:27Among those who pressed
20:28Medellamente the trigger
20:29And who was around him
20:32It's the exact same one
20:33There is no difference
20:37In fact, maybe I even feel more responsible.
20:40Who was there in those moments?
20:43And he physically killed
20:46And when did he kill?
20:47Because this is a thing
20:50That makes me think
20:52It's a deep reflection
20:53Which I did by the way
20:55In the sense that I
20:56Unlike the others
20:57I was older
20:58I was older
21:00Even though I was 20 years old
21:01Unlike the boys
21:03Because I'm 17-18 years old
21:03I was older
21:04And the responsibility
21:07In my experience
21:09For my way
21:11To juggle
21:12In difficult situations
21:13It leads me to consider myself
21:16Even more responsible
21:17Or anyway
21:18Of the same responsibility
21:19Of who physically killed
21:22So
21:23This is one thing
21:24Here but the first time
21:25What is remembered
21:26At that time
21:26That yes
21:27I don't tell him
21:30Because as I told you
21:31This here is a false problem
21:33It's something you want
21:35He's hypocritical
21:37It's a frightening hypocrisy
21:38It's a question
21:39Yes
21:40But as I was saying
21:41I consider it
21:42I could give a hypocritical answer
21:44So to avoid this
21:45I would like a real answer
21:48The real answer
21:49Which I don't know exactly.
21:50I might have done it
21:51It happened
21:53But the responsibilities are
21:56But let's say it this way
21:57She says that the responsibilities
21:58They are identical
21:59Yes yes they are identical
22:00This from the point of view
22:02General
22:03On the contrary
22:03Maybe they are bigger
22:04Who is it for?
22:05Agree
22:06But from the point of view
22:07Of psychological experience
22:09Individual
22:10I don't think this is true
22:11It's a choice
22:12Not the moment
22:13The moment
22:14I think it's different
22:15But the moment
22:19You know I don't think so
22:20Let it be so
22:22The moment is decisive
22:23Maybe it's even more
22:24More decisive
22:26The decision
22:28The decision
22:29What you have to do
22:30How you have to do it
22:32And when you're going to do it
22:33There it is
22:34Even more
22:35More painful
22:37Perhaps
22:38The first time
22:39What happened to me
22:40It happened to me
22:41In a situation
22:42Very simple
22:44Easy to motivate
22:46They had just died
22:48Three
22:49In quotation marks
22:50The comrades
22:51That's what they called themselves
22:52At that time
22:53Those of Acclarenzia
22:54Two had been killed
22:56From the so-called
22:57Red steering wheel
22:58And another one
22:59From a captain
23:00Of the Carabinieri
23:02And so
23:04A few days later
23:05It fell back
23:06Yet another anniversary
23:07Of death
23:07By Michi Smantapias
23:08Which was another
23:09Our dearest friend
23:10And then we organized
23:11A retaliation
23:12An expedition
23:13In retaliation
23:14Based on
23:15About the information
23:16From a friend of ours
23:17That from prison
23:18He was telling us
23:19Which he had identified
23:19Surely
23:21That they could be
23:22Those responsible
23:23Of the last two deaths
23:25That he is a murderer
23:2617 year old boys
23:28And we
23:28On good faith
23:30On belief
23:31That the information
23:31About this boy
23:32If they were certain
23:33We left
23:33To hit
23:34The environment
23:35Where he from
23:35It was said
23:36She had left
23:36This umpteenth
23:37Meaning what
23:37What environment?
23:38He told us
23:39That had left
23:39From a collective
23:41Of St. John
23:42Posto
23:42An occupied house
23:43Sent to retail
23:44There is the collective there
23:45Who organized
23:46And then he went away
23:46Any one
23:47It was fine
23:48We went ahead
23:48To the collective
23:49The anniversary day
23:50By Mantagas
23:51Meaning what
23:51We take
23:52Two of those
23:52That are here
23:53They crowded us together
23:53Two of ours
23:54We take
23:54Two of them
23:55For if the action
23:56It seemed easy
23:57For the great anger
23:58That we carried inside us
23:59It actually was
24:00The beginning
24:01Of one of mine
24:03Let's say
24:04Let's call him
24:05I don't want to call him
24:06Drama
24:06Because it's a word
24:07Abused
24:07In these terms
24:08Of a story
24:11My personal
24:11Of an impression
24:12That I received
24:13Already from that first time
24:13Of a rage
24:14That I tried
24:15That first time
24:15Because it's true
24:16What we found
24:18Two boys
24:19And it's true
24:19That we shot him
24:20It is true
24:21That I killed one
24:22But
24:23It clicked in me
24:24A double spring
24:26The feeling
24:27It's right away
24:27Of having made a mistake
24:29For a very simple reason
24:30This is one thing
24:31I talked about
24:32Only
24:32With very few people
24:35In the moment
24:36Where I aimed
24:36The gun
24:37Against one of these two boys
24:38I saw in his face
24:39It lasted a second
24:40Because then immediately after
24:41I have to pull the trigger
24:42There was a risk
24:42That he was also armed
24:43I was there to fulfill
24:44Something
24:45Against a group
24:46Who used weapons
24:47And in that second
24:50I saw the surprise
24:51I didn't see
24:52I was thinking about it
24:53If one had come
24:54In front of me
24:55To shoot me
24:56He wouldn't have seen
24:56The surprise
24:57Because what do we do?
24:58That we are in this business
24:59We have a different reaction
25:01If someone threatens you
25:02You have an answer
25:03You have a look
25:04Maybe out of hate
25:05You have a look
25:06At the edge of fear
25:07You have a look
25:08In an attempt to react
25:09One who instead
25:10He has that moment of surprise
25:11There at that moment
25:12I understand
25:12That this
25:12He was innocent
25:14He was one who definitely
25:16He was a comrade
25:16Which surely then
25:17You were left with the impression
25:19That it had nothing to do with it
25:21That day
25:22It was February 28th
25:24From 1978
25:25That boy
25:27It was called
25:28Roberto Scialabba
25:29And the first victim
25:30By Giusva
25:30Fioravanti
25:31Meanwhile his group
25:32It joins together
25:33The NARs are born
25:34The revolutionary armed nuclei
25:36One of the thousand acronyms
25:37Of terror
25:38Engaged in a war
25:39Without borders
25:40No truce
25:41The NAR group
25:42He takes responsibility
25:44Of robberies
25:45Assaults
25:46Insurrections
25:47Armed band
25:48But also
25:49Of murders
25:50So many murders
25:51In their 4 years of fire
25:53To the NAR
25:53They come altogether
25:55Attributed
25:56Nearly 30 victims
25:58She said
25:59In an interview
26:00There are many rational answers
26:02What is the reason for shooting?
26:04And we leave each other
26:05Shoot at someone
26:06Here you are
26:06What are these rational reasons?
26:11A great indecision
26:12Probably
26:14I
26:15From what I remember
26:16Of those moments
26:17But she talks about rational reasons
26:18There are rational reasons
26:19Of which they are all
26:21Everyone can
26:21They are all valid
26:23But nobody
26:23In itself
26:24It's exhaustive
26:24There are many reasons
26:27Which coincide
26:29It could be your anger
26:30Generational
26:31Can be
26:31The desire
26:33From
26:33Of not
26:34Generational anger
26:36To shoot
26:37In short
26:37Finding the rationale
26:39The main reason
26:41Ours probably
26:42It was not to abstain
26:44From a fight
26:44What we see in progress
26:46That others had started
26:47Which seemed to us
26:48That in the end
26:48Somehow
26:49He went to second
26:50We had two perspectives
26:51Or do nothing
26:52Or participate
26:53Do nothing
26:54It seemed to us
26:56And it's the only way
26:57To participate
26:57It was to kill
26:58At that time
26:59Probably
27:00In 77
27:00Yes
27:01But the ideology
27:02It wasn't important
27:03It wasn't essential
27:05What was important
27:05What was fundamental
27:07It was the energy
27:08My energy
27:09My husband's
27:10The energy of the group
27:12The energy that
27:14He made us
27:15Stronger
27:16Of the other groups
27:17It made us stronger
27:18For example
27:18Of the Red Brigades
27:19On the front line
27:20Compared to the
27:22Formation of the group
27:23To the reports
27:25Of friendship
27:26To the reports
27:26Affective
27:27But to do what?
27:29To be
27:31To be ourselves
27:33To be ourselves
27:34But to be yourself
27:35There was a need
27:35To go on the street
27:36Kill whoever you meet?
27:37But let's say there was
27:38An insurrection of individuals
27:40More than a revolution
27:41In fact, no one to us
27:43He believed
27:43To a revolution
27:45So we never asked ourselves
27:46This problem
27:47Of the revolution
27:48It was an insurrection
27:49Of singles
27:49Towards an alienated ideal
27:52A problem that was there
27:52I imagine
27:54Then yes
27:55At that time
27:56She remembers
27:58I for bad luck
27:58I mean all those journalists
28:00And all those people
28:01What did they say?
28:02That
28:04The enemy was the fascists
28:06That the enemy were
28:0716-year-old boys
28:08He's 7 years old
28:09That they died
28:10Just because they were
28:11During
28:11She doesn't think
28:12Which is a little silly
28:13Believe in all this
28:14So easy
28:15At that time
28:16At that time
28:16If she
28:17I think you will remember
28:18The slogan
28:20Killing a fascist
28:20It's not a crime
28:21He was married
28:22Even by many intellectuals
28:23This slogan
28:24I remember it well
28:26Listen
28:26He really thought
28:27At some point
28:28He thought he would win
28:29To win what?
28:31No
28:31I never thought I would win
28:34The problem
28:35It's your battle
28:36Strictly personal
28:37And this is another topic
28:38It's a battle
28:40Against your demons
28:41Against
28:42Against the two fears
28:43The two weaknesses
28:44And this is another topic
28:45But to win a revolution
28:47A political struggle
28:48Nobody ever thought of it
28:49And so
28:50In order not to win
28:52Nothing
28:53There was this availability
28:55But to kill
28:56And to get killed
28:57This is the strangest thing
28:59Yes but also to kill
29:00Yes
29:01About the choice
29:02Of the objectives
29:03In a memorial
29:03She wrote
29:04They were opposed
29:06The efficiency concept
29:08By Valerio
29:09And that one of mine
29:10Which we defined
29:12A bit'
29:12Joking
29:13Sentimental
29:14According to which
29:15Every act
29:16It had to be evaluated
29:17Even morally
29:18Yes it's true
29:20This means
29:21That then her husband
29:22It was a
29:24Cold Killer
29:25Determined
29:25In short
29:26Without moral evaluation
29:27To be determined
29:28If we can talk about this
29:30To be determined
29:31We were all very determined
29:33And this has given us
29:33Here but morally
29:34It created problems for us
29:35He explains to me
29:36What does it mean morally?
29:37Morally determined
29:38Exactly
29:38In this context
29:41For her
29:41If she thinks
29:41That we in two years
29:42We have committed
29:43The efficiency vision
29:44And that one instead
29:45Morally significant
29:47Efficiency
29:48The result
29:49Dead
29:49Explain it to me
29:50I want to understand
29:50The fact of being efficient
29:53Then it was
29:54A question
29:55Of difference
29:56From other groups
29:56In the sense that the other groups
29:57They were wearing jackets
29:58They weren't getting anything done
29:59So the fact that we instead
30:01Instead of freezing
30:02And morally significant
30:03We could do things
30:05What could have been
30:06This is the efficiency
30:07That it wasn't just
30:08But what she says
30:09The killing
30:11No even robberies
30:12Etc
30:12We did some things
30:13One of which, by the way
30:15I think it's very important
30:16The fact of not shooting at comrades anymore
30:20I think this is what we need
30:21To be recognized
30:22The fact that it ended
30:24It's over
30:26An era
30:27At the moment when
30:28We have decided
30:29That we didn't have to anymore
30:30Shoot at someone
30:31With the girls
30:32Of our generation
30:34The values
30:35Gordiesi
30:36What she believes in
30:36What are they?
30:37The more abstract ones
30:38The strangest ones
30:40In the market economy
30:41But let it be
30:42As moderate as possible
30:44In the economy
30:45In a cohabitation
30:45Emicibile
30:46In democracy
30:46That it must be
30:47As open as possible
30:48In the economy of death
30:49That must not exist
30:50In religion
30:50That it must not be
30:51Invalid
30:51He believed it before too
30:52I've always believed in it
30:54And it remained
30:55Strictly consequent
30:56And that's why he shot
30:56And that's what he was shooting for?
30:57But I shot
30:58Against those who to me
31:00They looked like the ones that
31:00They were shooting at my friends
31:01And here we are again
31:03But that's the reason
31:04And above all
31:05I shot
31:06And this is our mistake
31:07One thing that
31:08We should be ashamed
31:08We are not finished
31:09The speech from before
31:10We shot
31:11To demonstrate
31:13To answer
31:14Practically
31:14To a common place
31:16And that's the thing
31:17Extremely shameful
31:18We should be ashamed
31:19We fell into the trap
31:20Of a common place
31:21We shot
31:22We made a mess
31:24Of our lives
31:24And of other people's lives
31:25To demonstrate
31:26That the fascists
31:27They weren't that
31:27What was being talked about
31:28To demonstrate
31:29Who had the courage
31:31When they had
31:32Of the anger inside
31:33They went for rotten feet
31:34To shoot
31:35To expose ourselves
31:36She thinks today
31:37That there would be
31:39Other ways
31:40For her too
31:40To express his protest
31:42Or not?
31:43Probably yes
31:44Then I don't think so
31:45That there were others
31:46But are you the opposite of the problem?
31:47That is, violence is described
31:49Me anyway
31:49It's not that I want to play the victim.
31:51Of a situation
31:51Absolutely
31:52I ask questions
31:53I simply say
31:53What then
31:54There was violence
31:56We were growing up
31:57In a climate of violence
31:58But there were also a lot of people
31:59That didn't shoot
32:00The fact that he didn't shoot
32:02But she was still involved
32:05She was involved and complicit
32:07The fact that he didn't shoot
32:08This does not mean
32:09He has no responsibilities
32:10In her opinion
32:10The only way
32:11To be against
32:13That was it
32:14To be willing
32:16To kill
32:17Basically
32:18If I understood
32:18At the start
32:19It was to be willing
32:20To defend himself
32:21Even answering
32:22Then after
32:24We went further
32:27Listen, but you
32:28The feeling
32:29Awareness
32:30To be also
32:30A murderer
32:31Have you ever had it?
32:32Of course I have it
32:33I have it
32:34Why
32:36Here too
32:37For a path
32:38A little twisted
32:39Me every now and then
32:40I think again
32:41To my friends
32:42Who were killed
32:45And I look very carefully
32:47Some people
32:48What do you mean?
32:49They forgave
32:49I met them
32:51I also meet them in prison
32:53And I try to understand
32:54How they did it
32:55Because I think again
32:56To my friends
32:57And I can't
32:57Nor to forget them
32:59Nor to try
33:00Such a fatalistic sense
33:01Of abandonment
33:02It happened
33:03It didn't happen
33:03I still feel
33:04A very strong attachment
33:05For certain situations
33:06And a very strong sense
33:07Of injustice
33:08I'm still convinced
33:10Of having suffered
33:11Of injustices
33:12At the moment when
33:12They took this story away from me
33:13They took these affections away from me
33:15And I clearly understand too
33:18Which is the exact same feeling
33:20That the others
33:21They have towards me
33:22That is, how
33:22Since I don't
33:23I am
33:25Very interested
33:26From these people
33:26Who forgive
33:27But still
33:27I can't understand them
33:29I understand too
33:30That the so-called
33:30Relatives of the victims
33:31Of which sometimes
33:32We are talking nonsense
33:33We talk a little
33:34With lightness
33:34With rhetoric
33:35But the relatives of the victims
33:35They are not so-called
33:36They are relatives of the victims
33:37It's a vague term
33:39I say so-called
33:39Because it's a horse
33:41Which is used
33:42For political battles
33:43Of low rhetoric
33:44Many times
33:45I think
33:45They are people
33:46As
33:46That's what I was saying
33:48Me too
33:48I think their feelings
33:50They are very difficult
33:51As are mine
33:52To avoid being hypocritical
33:53I
33:55I have a pain
33:57For those
33:57That I have known
33:58For the loved ones
33:59That they tore away from me
34:00Reflecting on this
34:01I understand obviously
34:02That the feelings
34:04Identical
34:04They also have them
34:05So in short
34:06He would kill them again
34:07With comparisons
34:08I don't think I told her that.
34:10No
34:10I ask him
34:14No
34:14And not because
34:16For an abstract reason
34:19Or generic
34:22Why
34:24From the fact that all this
34:25It was particularly useless
34:27From the fact that all this
34:28He was born
34:30From one of ours
34:31Wanting to take charge
34:32Of responsibility
34:33That weren't ours
34:33From the fact that a good part
34:34Of this
34:35Maybe it was just
34:36A mismatch
34:37Our
34:38Generational
34:42Mr. Fioravanti
34:43What effect do they have on you?
34:43These words
34:44Of his son?
34:46But
34:46No particular effect
34:48Today as today
34:49Because I lived them
34:50Me too with him
34:51And I find that it is also
34:53Fairly honest
34:54What he says
34:54Here but
34:55In those years
34:56His son
34:57Did he ever confess to her?
34:58Of having killed?
34:59No no never
35:00Never?
35:00But no because
35:01Precisely
35:01Returning to the beginning
35:03I was against it
35:04Only
35:05In a manner
35:06Categorical
35:06And so he never confessed it to her.
35:07I never agreed
35:09Even if you spoke
35:10Of everything
35:10Of that
35:10Unfriendly
35:11He didn't tell me anything
35:12Here's about him
35:13I sensed it
35:14Clear
35:15I sensed it
35:15And then newspapers
35:16The radio
35:16It's not that
35:17Here's about him
35:18By Giusva
35:19Someone said
35:19That he was just a bloodthirsty madman
35:21That in the end
35:22He just liked to kill
35:23Well, a lot has been said.
35:25Here it is not
35:25It is not
35:26Those who killed
35:28Vale
35:29Or that they killed
35:30Ali Brandi
35:31Or that they killed
35:34Anselmi
35:34What are they?
35:35No but now
35:36We were talking about him
35:37Oh well
35:37He was a friend
35:39Of these guys
35:39It's a reaction
35:40If to her
35:41They killed a dear friend of hers
35:42Some reactions
35:43I think
35:44Yes, it's not necessarily true
35:45One shoots
35:46If he doesn't have courage
35:47He doesn't shoot
35:47Just a question of courage
35:49Well, also
35:50I think so
35:51Listen, but a father
35:52What does he read?
35:53In the eyes of a son
35:55Who knows who killed
35:58He only reads courage
35:59As she says now
36:00Or even read something
36:01Now don't weigh your words.
36:04And what do I read?
36:06I read that he
36:06Of what he does
36:07He is convinced
36:10He is convinced
36:11Because undoubtedly
36:12He pursues an ideal
36:13That it is right then
36:15Or wrong
36:15This ideal
36:16And he never thought
36:17Of having to do something more
36:18What to counter it
36:19But I did more
36:20What more could I do?
36:22No I don't know
36:22More than beating him
36:23More than arguing
36:24More than what to tell him
36:26These things
36:26They don't carry
36:27In no
36:28No place
36:29There are only two roads
36:30Or death
36:31Or prison
36:31But what, what have you got into your head?
36:33Because I more than this
36:35I couldn't do it
36:35Here it is anyway
36:37Even the career of fire
36:38By Fioravanti
36:39Of Just
36:40Fioravanti
36:40It has an epilogue
36:41And it's an epilogue
36:42A tragic epilogue
36:43Which is consumed
36:45On a February night
36:46In a canal
36:47On the outskirts of Padua
36:49I'm in third position
36:51The terrorists who last night
36:52Around 10pm
36:53In the Bassanello area
36:55On the outskirts of Padua
36:56You are seeing it
36:57They mowed down two policemen
36:59The corporal
37:00Enea Codotto
37:0126 years old
37:02From Latisana
37:02Friuli
37:03And the soldier
37:04Luigi Maronese
37:0524 years old
37:06From Vittorio Veneto
37:07The two carabinieri
37:08Shot to death
37:09They collapsed
37:10But first
37:10They managed to reach
37:11On the legs
37:12One of the attackers
37:13Shortly after
37:14The same murderers
37:15Through a bartender
37:16They made a warning
37:17The 113
37:18That in an apartment
37:19From the center
37:19He found
37:20In serious condition
37:21Joseph Valerio
37:22Fioravanti
37:2322 years old
37:24Neo-fascist from Rovereto
37:25Wanted for murder
37:27Of the judge
37:27Mario Amato
37:28And for the massacre
37:29At Bologna station
37:30Now the spiral
37:31Of violence
37:32Of the NAR
37:32And in a parable
37:34Downhill
37:34A year passes
37:35And on March 5th
37:37Of '82
37:37A day of fire
37:39The last one for Mambro
37:41Who gets hurt
37:42And arrested
37:43With this arrest
37:44So it closes
37:45The career of fire
37:46Of the two historical leaders
37:48Of the NAR
37:48And the years begin
37:49Of detention
37:51And the processes
37:52But this story
37:53All Italian
37:54So tragic
37:55And it's shocking
37:57He has in store
37:58Another twist
37:59Key witness
38:01Of the prosecution
38:02In many
38:03Of the numerous processes
38:04Against Valerio Fioravanti
38:05And his brother himself
38:07Christian
38:08Who participated
38:09Him too
38:10We heard it
38:11To many of the attacks
38:12Of those years
38:14His brother
38:14It remains to this day
38:15His greatest accuser
38:17Here you are
38:18She would have never imagined
38:20What could have been
38:20Is this happening?
38:22Coldly
38:23If someone sits down at a table
38:24He has to imagine everything
38:25I wouldn't have expected it
38:27Why
38:30For an emotional issue
38:31Not for a question
38:32Of a psychological analysis
38:34Knowing philology
38:35Quite weak
38:36Quite utilitarian
38:37About my brother
38:38It was predictable
38:40I didn't expect it
38:41Why
38:41In our group
38:42The feelings
38:43They have always prevailed
38:43On any other logic
38:46I thought the feeling
38:47If only it were from us
38:48Should
38:49To stave off
38:50Any other topic
38:51Here you are
38:51But in the period
38:52In which you killed together
38:53The relationship between you two
38:55What was it?
38:56Actually
38:56This period
38:56There has almost never been
38:58Why
38:59When the question
39:00Our
39:01It took a turn
39:02As
39:03So fierce
39:04So challenging
39:06We have always found a way
39:07Me and the others
39:08Friends keep it out a little
39:11Perhaps the last regurgitations
39:13Of a protective instinct
39:14What could he have?
39:15But there is something
39:16That she never liked
39:17By Cristiano
39:17Thinking back now?
39:22The fact that he didn't have
39:24A strong personality
39:27In the sense that it was
39:28It wasn't
39:29Zuccube
39:31Brother's Victim
39:32On certain occasions
39:33Where here
39:34For example
39:34The occasion in which
39:35We had to get Valerio out
39:37We had to free him.
39:38He doesn't
39:38He didn't think
39:39That this could be
39:40A solution
39:41He thought instead
39:42That the best solution
39:43It was to expatriate
39:46Listen, but you think
39:47A day to be able to forgive
39:48His brother
39:48Or not?
39:50Forgive?
39:51Here too
39:52I don't want to give the usual answer
39:54To the difference
39:54Between Christian forgiveness
39:55And then
39:56A penalty
39:58That somewhere else
39:59It must hit equally
40:00I
40:00I definitely have
40:01Forgiven
40:02Why
40:04From a certain point of view
40:06I forgive him
40:06Because it is an act
40:07Surely
40:07Of weakness
40:08And of cowardice
40:09If one
40:11As they say in Rome
40:12His heart can't take it
40:13More than that
40:14You don't want to take it out on him
40:15But who had more scruples?
40:16Of the two
40:16In the trigger prize?
40:18Her or her brother?
40:20I pressed it several times
40:21And he did it
40:22More willingly perhaps
40:24If this
40:25It can be a difference
40:27Here you are
40:28At that time
40:28Mr. Fioravanti
40:29A judgment
40:31This is terrible
40:32It is true?
40:33Is that how you think it is?
40:34For what
40:34It is given to her
40:37Evaluate
40:37Are they his children?
40:38Yes
40:39They are my children
40:40I can't evaluate
40:41Nor do I want to evaluate
40:42For me they are just children
40:44And for the children
40:46A father
40:46He does everything
40:47Exactly
40:48When they have any
40:49More need
40:50Here you are
40:50But according to her
40:51At that time
40:52From a psychological point of view
40:53What is the substantial difference?
40:55Between Valerio and Cristiano?
40:56The substantial difference
40:57That were two characters
40:58Diametrically different
41:00Meaning what?
41:00Places
41:01Valerio
41:02It's the bold one
41:04He is the brave one
41:04And I would also say
41:05The smartest
41:07Christian
41:08He is less prepared
41:11Less intelligent
41:13Less courageous
41:15More opportunistic
41:16Well, when did she find out?
41:18About Cristiano's decision
41:19To collaborate with justice?
41:21Oh I never knew that
41:23He did it all by himself
41:24But she shared it
41:25Cristiano's decision
41:26To collaborate with justice or not?
41:29Well, that's a bit of a difficult answer.
41:31Why share things like this?
41:35I do not know
41:37At certain moments one says
41:38But maybe he did well
41:39Maybe it hurt
41:40In front of this society
41:42Who understands and doesn't understand
41:43And maybe he never understands
41:45Nothing
41:45Because he sees
41:46He's a criminal
41:47He's a murderer
41:47Shoot
41:48He carries out attacks
41:50Maybe he did well
41:51Maybe it hurt
41:52Who knows?
41:52No, the one who did it wrong
41:53It's attacking your brother
41:55Yes
41:55I don't agree with this.
41:57And did you talk about it?
41:58Well we talked about it
42:00Yes
42:00And what did she tell her?
42:03Well I told her that
42:04It doesn't suit me
42:05Because between brothers
42:06Today it is claimed
42:07For better or for worse
42:10Especially in evil
42:11Here but she then
42:12However, he did not intervene
42:13No way
42:13In Cristiano's decision?
42:17No
42:17Listen, Mr. Fioravanti.
42:18I'll ask you one last question.
42:19Yes
42:20But if she could go back
42:22As a parent
42:24He would make the same choices
42:25What did he do?
42:26What choices did I make?
42:27No
42:27Throughout his life
42:29And the education of his children
42:31Would he make them all the same?
42:32I have no regrets
42:33I think I was
42:35A good father
42:37Of having done everything possible
42:39To advise them
42:40Always in the best way
42:43And what he does
42:44A father
42:45Which is worthy of the name
42:47With a capital P
42:48Who dreams for his children
42:50Who knows what
42:51Which then maybe he will never save
42:53But at the limit
42:54I would have preferred
42:54A job at the Land Registry
42:57Of course I believe it.
42:58They chose this
43:00Independently
43:01From that
43:01Whether it's me
43:02That my wife
43:03We were able to
43:04Or suggest
43:05Or teach
43:07And how does she live now?
43:10Oh how I live
43:11How a father lives
43:12Who has two boys in jail
43:13One against the other
43:15Alone
43:16How would she live?
43:18If there is my situation
43:20And how would any father live?
43:22In my situation
43:23It's easy to understand
43:25Anyway
43:26Valerio Fioravanti
43:27He must serve
43:28Three life sentences
43:30Like his wife
43:31Francesca Mambro
43:32And here
43:33The story ends
43:34Of these two boys
43:35Which we have defined
43:36Boys Next Door
43:38But here's what's left
43:40From the past
43:40Of the wounded
43:41Of the dead
44:12Of the attacks
44:12And of all the years
44:12I see that there are a lot of people
44:13Many of my friends
44:14That with what I call
44:16The excuse of dissociation
44:17They tend to forget
44:19To remove
44:19And I think that this
44:20It shouldn't be done
44:21I think we paid
44:23Everyone
44:23That period
44:24That was a period
44:24Very fertile
44:25Of good feelings
44:26But also of bad feelings
44:28We pulled out
44:29The best part
44:29About ourselves
44:30But also the worst part
44:31It's not something
44:32Which can simply
44:34To be put in the drawer
44:35He says
44:35We were wrong
44:36Let's pretend nothing happened
44:37Let's go back out to do nothing
44:38No
44:39It was an experience
44:41Useful
44:41For better or for worse
44:42We discovered
44:43The best part
44:44The worst part of us
44:45And I would like
44:46Let the discussion
44:49It was not left
44:50To the usual politicians
44:51That they only try
44:52To earn some votes
44:53Of blaming
44:54To a party
44:55To the other
44:55To the party of firmness
44:56To the party of hardness
44:57In short
44:57I would like this reflection
45:00It was of some use
45:01I have always suspected
45:03What a good part
45:03Of 77
45:06It arose from the fact
45:07That Italy
45:08The world
45:09He's always had a war
45:10Every twenty years
45:10Every thirty years
45:11And maybe we are part of it
45:12Even victims
45:12Of rhetoric
45:13Of our fathers
45:14We feel
45:14Of not having participated
45:15To no war
45:16We wanted
45:17To demonstrate
45:18That
45:18It couldn't be
45:19Just happy
45:20It's not easy
45:21In a country
45:22Very rhetorical
45:22Like ours
45:23In which they are located
45:24A demonstration
45:24A week
45:25In which it seems
45:25That only
45:26Who made the war?
45:27Be a hero
45:28All the others
45:29They are worth less than less
45:30Perhaps unconsciously
45:31On our part
45:32There is the desire
45:32To demonstrate
45:33That in case of war
45:34We would have done it too
45:35Our part
45:35We invented war
45:36There was no need for it
45:37We invented
45:38A civil war
45:39That was enough
45:42Fatua
45:42If we want to see
45:43Serious reasons
45:43There were none
45:44To protest
45:45With such vehemence
45:47Against a country
45:48As I say
45:48I still believe
45:49Much more civilized
45:50Of many others
45:51Where
45:51This phenomenon
45:53There was no
45:59Here you are
46:00Very interesting
46:01Here you are
46:02What would he tell?
46:03Compared to this period
46:05Those three years
46:05Let's say
46:09Violent
46:13I learned
46:14That people
46:17They are less easy
46:19Of what
46:21What was believed
46:23To be understood
46:23So
46:24But I understood it
46:25Through
46:27Through
46:28Of feelings
46:29And not through
46:30Some books
46:31Or through
46:33An intelligence
46:33Strata
46:34Or through
46:36The ideology
46:37But it would scare her
46:38Having to tell
46:38To a son
46:39That period
46:40Of his life
46:42Meaning what
46:43She would feel ready
46:49You know it
46:51I know
47:09Of his life
47:12Of his life
47:14Of his life
47:15Of his life
47:15Of his life
47:15Of his life
47:15Of his life
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