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00:00I'm James Jones, NBA champ, former Cav and League executive, and I think it's great to bring you on.
00:08How are you, James? Welcome to the show.
00:10Thanks for having me. I'm fantastic. I'm actually doing really, really well and excited about the playoff basketball that's happening
00:15right now.
00:16Well, I'm loving it. I mean, there was an NFL draft this weekend we were paying attention to,
00:20but I was pretty dialed in to just about every single NBA playoff game.
00:24And some common themes emerged, and I think it's great to have you on as head of the basketball operations,
00:29because you are really in tune to all of this stuff.
00:32So we did have some news last night that the two-minute came out.
00:38The report came out. Seven missed calls in the final two minutes of that Cavs-Raptors game four up in
00:45Toronto.
00:46And normally, hey, it happens. You miss calls.
00:49I do think the best officials in the world are doing NBA playoff games.
00:53The problem is the Cavs had two challenges that were successful earlier in the game.
01:00And that's it. They don't get to challenge anymore, and they certainly had their fair share that they could have
01:05in really the final five minutes of the game.
01:07And you had such a close game. So, James, does the NBA need to re-examine this?
01:12I know we don't want to be mired in nonstop stoppages.
01:15I hate that. I'm sure you hate that. The fans hate it.
01:18But it is the playoffs, and the Cavs, by no fault of their own other than they challenged some bad
01:23calls earlier in the game,
01:24they were not able to do so again.
01:27Right. I mean, I think that's the one thing that, since I've been on this side with the league office,
01:33that I've come to appreciate and understand is that the league's always constantly revisiting and looking at these things.
01:38And so, even when we talk about the challenge rules, those things were five or six years in the making
01:42before they actually got here, and there have been multiple iterations.
01:46So, as far as looking at it, I mean, it's all about striking the right balance of game flow and
01:51getting the calls right.
01:52But no doubt, we look at all those things, and history informs our future decisions.
01:58And if we see trends and things that, like, really are, I want to say, black holes for the game,
02:03we usually try to figure those out.
02:05But for sure, I think the playoffs are so difficult.
02:09The plays have such high impact.
02:11You always want to get it right.
02:12Sometimes the referees get it wrong, but you just hope they get it right more often than not.
02:17James Jones joining us on the show.
02:19Can I just mention something as a fan?
02:21When my team loses, I'd rather just not see the two-minute report, because then if I see the two
02:24-minute report, I get madder.
02:27Yeah, I mean, I get it.
02:29It's one of those things where, you know, if you win, you're happy.
02:34If you lose, you're looking at this game of possessions and wondering whether or not that was the difference in
02:40the game.
02:40And I would say most of the times it's not, but sometimes it is.
02:44So, one of the interesting trends that emerges every time this time of year is how different the NBA playoffs
02:52are compared to the regular season.
02:54And that's why we talk about so many players that are playoff risers, players that can deal with physicality.
02:59Certainly, it looks like they officiate the game differently.
03:01I see a lot more hand checks, impeding progress of drivers that's permitted in the postseason.
03:07I've always liked that.
03:08I've heard more and more some people may not like it because the game is so completely different.
03:13Look at the scores.
03:15Look at that first quarter of the Raptors and the Cavs.
03:18Cavs have been a great offensive team all year.
03:20And, you know, scoring under 20, you know, in many of the quarters.
03:24And same thing for Toronto.
03:25Do you think this is something that needs to be looked at?
03:28And how do you, as someone who's played in big games and in championship moments, why are the playoffs so
03:33different?
03:35Well, I'll start by saying they're fundamentally different because you win and you go home.
03:40Through the course of a regular eight-game season, you're looking at your entire 15-man roster and you're thinking
03:45about how do you get from game to game.
03:47Whereas in the playoffs, one game, if you go up 1-0, the odds say that you win that series
03:52more often than not.
03:54And so players, they leave it all out there.
03:56Nothing left in the tank for the next game.
03:58Rotations shrink.
03:59And then the players that are on the floor are the best of the best.
04:02You're not talking about a lot of rookies.
04:04You're not talking about the 12th or 13th man.
04:06You're talking about your top eight, top seven, top eight, top nine guys playing at a high level for a
04:13longer period of time.
04:14And so the physicality picks up because the players pick up the physicality, not because we changed the rules.
04:20James Jones joining us here on the show.
04:22So what are some of the things that you hear about the league that you go, no, that's not right.
04:27That's just guys making things up for show fodder that kind of bother you when it comes to overall criticism
04:33of the NBA?
04:35I think one of them is that the league has an agenda and the league has favorites and teams and
04:40players that they prefer to see.
04:41I mean, it's truly, you know, our focus is the game, trying to make it balanced, trying to make it
04:47competitive and trying to continue this fluidity of competition, as I call it, where every night, whichever team's out there
04:55playing the hardest, whichever teams are out there competing, they have a shot at winning and climbing up the rankings.
05:01And so if you look at what happened this year, the, you know, I think in the Eastern Conference, we've
05:06had six different number one seeds over the last six years, it shows some fluidity, flexibility and mobility across the
05:14standings.
05:14And going into the end of the season, you know, 19 or 20 seeds, we're still up, up in, up
05:21in the year, you know, five games left in the season.
05:23So five days left in the season.
05:25So the league in general, we just want to see teams out there competing and every fan base, every player,
05:32every team knowing that they legitimately have a shot at winning.
05:35So we don't play favorites.
05:36We just love to make sure that the game is balanced.
05:38Yeah, James Jones with us from the NBA league office, the biggest complaint I hear, and I try to defend
05:44the NBA around every turn, but it's hard to, is making the regular seasons matter again.
05:49In fact, those teams you were on, and especially the Miami Heat teams, everybody was dialed into those games.
05:55They led SportsCenter every day.
05:56I know that was a different era, but the regular season did seem to matter.
06:00Do we need to go back and think about how we do the playoffs to incentivize the regular season?
06:07Maybe make home court advantage mean more.
06:10These teams don't seem to care about seeds anymore, and because of that, you're going to get guys, teams, resting
06:15more players.
06:17Well, I think that's kind of inaccurate.
06:21The regular season, the reason people tend sometimes to say the regular season doesn't matter is because we've gotten to
06:27a place where the narratives outside of sport, outside of our game, is championship or bust, right?
06:33And so if you're not winning the championship, why does it matter?
06:36It doesn't matter if you're the 6th seed, 7th seed, 8th seed, 5th seed, 1th seed.
06:41It doesn't really matter.
06:42Let's just skip to the playoffs.
06:44Let's skip to the finals.
06:45The reality is that's where the growth lies, and that's where the excitement grows, where teams build.
06:52But I will say the competitive balance of our league makes it kind of dicey for teams.
06:57If you're competing right now, if you're the number 1 seed, the number 8 seed is not that far off,
07:02whereas in the past it was.
07:03And so you can create these dynasties.
07:05You can create these storylines of dominance.
07:07But dominance now in our league is fleeting.
07:10You know, you can't just expect because you have the best players or the top stars that you'll be able
07:15to walk through the league because teams are playing deeper and the games are a faster pace and more dynamic.
07:20So it's one of those things where the players, they go out there and they play.
07:24They play really, really hard, and they compete and they lose.
07:28And fan bases don't like losing.
07:30And a lot of times when you see this parity, it gets people thinking that, oh, well, it doesn't really
07:35matter for the players.
07:36Well, it does.
07:36It's just that they're getting beat sometimes, even when they're trying their best.
07:39And I know you're probably sick and tired of hearing, and we'll get to this series in a second because
07:43I do think it's been entertaining, even if it's been a hard watch at times.
07:47My heart was pumping in the final two minutes of that last game.
07:50The tanking situation.
07:52So you guys flattened the odds.
07:54You've tinkered with it over the years, but it seems like it's only incentivized more tanking from more teams.
08:00Is it the easiest solution just to go back to the old model and go back to the old odds?
08:06No.
08:06I mean, no.
08:06I mean, the one thing I'll say about our game, our fans, our front offices, and everyone involved, they all
08:13want to win.
08:14Selfishly, they think about their best interest, their individual's selfish best interest.
08:19And that leads to some crazy behavior.
08:22Look, tanking, as far as the integrity of the game, the sport in general, it's just terrible.
08:28And I think Adam said multiple times it's corrosive, and we know that.
08:31And so we'll solve it, and we'll fix it.
08:34The reality is that the teams that aren't winning are looking to try to get the best talent by any
08:39means necessary.
08:40And sometimes they'll do things that are counter to the best interest of the game, and we can't allow that
08:44to happen.
08:45Because at the end of the day, it's all about the fans.
08:46It's about the competition.
08:47People come out there hoping and expecting to see teams lay it on the line and try to win every
08:54game.
08:55And we'll get back to that, and we'll make sure that the behavior that we saw and the incentives that
08:59were there no longer exist.
09:01And I think we'll get back to the purity of the game, which is what everyone loves around this time
09:04of the year.
09:05James Jones joining us, former champion.
09:07Well, you're always a champion once you're a champion.
09:09A three-time NBA champion, former team executive, current executive VP of basketball operations for the NBA.
09:17What would be your plan to curb tanking or to stop tanking altogether?
09:22Well, we talked about it.
09:26I mean, we have something that we're working on, and we'll solve it in short order.
09:30But I would say it's just, more than anything, reminding people that our game is about competition.
09:36And it's about trying to compete and trying to win every night.
09:40Careers are short for players, coaches, and everyone involved.
09:43For fan bases, you know, seasons come and they go.
09:46You never get a game back.
09:48And as long as we can continue to put that at the forefront, I think we'll get to solutions that
09:51get us to thinking about and talking about the game of basketball
09:54and not about the tactics to not win and compete in basketball games.
09:58And so I'm very confident between, you know, the front office, the front offices, the NBA leadership, and our governors
10:05that we'll come up with a solution that solves this thing for good.
10:10Well, you don't have to worry about any tanking in the postseason.
10:12And we've seen the Raptors now win two in a row up north.
10:17They come back to Cleveland, and this series is deadlocked.
10:20They're still the Cavs' big favorites to win this series.
10:22What have you seen out of this Cavs team and maybe some of the offensive struggles that have emerged throughout
10:29the last two games?
10:31I'll just say the possession game.
10:33You know, turnovers in the playoffs, turnovers are, you can't recover from them.
10:37You know, possessions are so valuable.
10:41And momentum is a real thing.
10:43And I just think, you know, the home teams, both home teams have held serve at home.
10:47And that's because they've been doing a good job of getting the shots that they want and protecting the ball.
10:53You know, your best players have to play well.
10:55They have to score.
10:56They have to be efficient in the playoffs.
10:58And in the last two games, the Cavs have struggled with that.
11:00But, you know, like I said before, looking at these series, and I think across the NBA, with the exception
11:05of a couple upper-seas losing home games, it's been pretty balanced.
11:10The team that wins the turnover battle typically wins the games.
11:14Does this job, being in this role, does it make you more of a basketball fan or less of a
11:20basketball fan?
11:21Do I have to explain myself further or do you get what I'm saying?
11:24No, no, no, no, 100%.
11:25I mean, it's actually, it's refreshing to be in this role.
11:28It makes me more of a basketball fan because, you know, rather than looking at games on an individual basis
11:35and looking at teams as my opposition,
11:36I'm looking at teams collectively as basically my teams.
11:42And so I'm having a greater appreciation for the diversity of coaching staffs and coaching styles,
11:47a greater appreciation for the players from veterans to rookies who aren't even playing because that map of these teams
11:55is what drives our future game.
11:57So I love where I am, and I love the ability to see and help all these teams compete because,
12:05at the end of the day, that's what makes the NBA great.
12:08Obviously, the players are making so much more money every year, it seems like.
12:12But do you ever feel bad assessing a fine?
12:15Is there ever a time where you have to get a text from a player like, really?
12:19Really?
12:19All I did was critique the officials?
12:22Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, like I tell people, like, that's my job, but it's not,
12:26I mean, it's not something I relish.
12:28You never want to be someone that is punishing or, you know, admonishing or reprimanding or whatever you want to
12:36call it for behavior.
12:38You know, at the end of the day, it's about getting out of the way, eliminating friction and distractions.
12:42And so my hope is that I can continue to be in this job and just make sure that these
12:48things that I deal with aren't things that we deal with.
12:50Because no one wants to see a fine.
12:52No one wants to hear that stuff.
12:53We just want to see good basketball.
12:55You want to see your teams win and compete and have fun.
12:58And so I just, I get, I'm, you know, tasked with doing the unfavorable stuff.
13:04But at the end of the day, it's just hopefully to eliminate these distractions.
13:07James Jones with us, what were you thinking on Friday night when you saw LeBron James first throwing an alley
13:14-oop to his son in an actual NBA playoff game?
13:18And the fact that he put up those types of LeBron vintage numbers, scoring over 30 and doing it all?
13:25I mean, if you had asked me that years ago, I would have said it was a CGI event, you
13:29know, computer generated.
13:31But it's just a testament to his durability and commitment to the game.
13:36And, you know, it's special when you see that stuff.
13:39I've always said with him, I've always been, you know, amazed but never surprised.
13:44But that one surprised me because you never think that moment will actually come where he gets a chance to
13:48do that with Bronny.
13:49So pretty, pretty cool moment for him and pretty cool moment for the NBA as a whole.
13:54It just shows that, you know, this game connects us as fans, but also as family.
14:00James Jones on the show with us.
14:02Who's the greatest player of all time?
14:03Are you allowed to answer that question?
14:06No, I don't.
14:07I don't.
14:07I never get into that.
14:08I leave that for non-basketball people.
14:12As far as basketball players, you know, I would say, like for me, it's I've had a chance to play
14:18with one of the greatest ever
14:19and some of the greatest Hall of Famers of all time.
14:21Reggie Miller on down, Ray Allen.
14:24I have a ton of respect for those guys.
14:26I would never choose.
14:27See, he got to play with evil LeBron when he was kind of doing that.
14:31Yeah, mean LeBron.
14:31Yeah, mean LeBron for a couple of years and then things that things have kind of changed.
14:36I didn't like that LeBron.
14:36That was not a fun LeBron.
14:37Now, what'd you think of that LeBron?
14:39I mean, that LeBron down in Miami was pretty good with me.
14:42So, I mean, I love everything about it.
14:45James, thank you so much for the time.
14:47Enjoy the rest of the playoffs.
14:48Hopefully we talk to you again soon.
14:50All right, thanks, guys.
14:51Take care.
14:52Three-time NBA champ, former Cav, current NBA executive with the NBA.
14:57He is the executive VP of basketball operations for the NBA, James Jones, on the make it right, call it
15:02right.
15:03I mean, he is so confident that they have a solution to tanking.
15:07I hope so.
15:08And I'm sorry.
15:08Any of the stuff that's been leaked out, I don't know if it was a trial balloon or whatever, none
15:12of it made any sense to me.
15:13It was all convoluted.
15:14And I just think this is an easy fix, just go back to the old odds, where, yes, the worst
15:20teams would tank, the very bottom.
15:22But right now, you have teams tanking all over the map.
15:25I agree with you.
15:25And especially this was a once-in-a-lifetime draft, even though we know it's probably not going to be
15:29that case.
15:29But that's how it was being touted.
15:31Well, next year's draft is going to be not good.
15:33I know that this is going to be a once-in-a-lifetime draft, and next year's draft is not
15:36going to be that good.
15:37So maybe that will change it.
15:38But I agree with you.
15:39You need the way they have those three ways that they've boiled it down to.
15:42You need something less convoluted.
15:45I mean, you can't follow it.
15:46The regular fan cannot follow it.
15:47Two out of four years, you can't be in a top five, and the distribution of the percentages.
15:52You have to be a ball-knowing, NBA-first fan, basketball-fan-first to understand what their calculations are.
15:58If you're a general, if you're just a casual basketball fan, there's no way on earth you'll care or understand
16:04it.
16:04Not a chance.
16:06I had to read the article like four times to understand exactly what they were talking about before I got
16:10it.
16:12And then I forgot it.
16:13So now I have to read it again four times.
16:15By the way, so last night there was a home-run ball-knower?
16:18Yes.
16:19Apparently that our sleuths have done more research on?
16:21Yes, the internet sleuths have been sleuthing about the guy who stole the home-run ball from the little girl,
16:27and it turns out that this ain't his first rodeo.
16:30Or home-run ball.
16:32Or bat for that matter.
16:33What are you laughing about?
16:34Or the trampoline of wife and kids.
16:37That too.
16:38I thought you were making fun of my voice cracking.
16:40Get a shooting star press in a game three years ago.
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