Esiste un terzo uomo nel gruppo Ludwig, il gruppo criminale che dal 1977 al 1984 si è reso colpevole della morte di 15 persone? Lavorando su questa ipotesi, "Telefono giallo" cerca di analizzare due aspetti inquietanti dell'attività del gruppo: la violenza legata all'ideologia politica e il razzismo. Al momento della trasmissione, due persone sono già state condannate in primo grado: Wolfgang Abel e Marco Furlan. Il processo di secondo grado è appena cominciato ma si aprono, nel corso della puntata, linee di ricerca sull'esistenza di un terzo uomo.
1988.05.13 - Telefono giallo 1988 - Il terzo uomo di Ludwig - Prima Parte
#Crime #TrueCrime #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Nera #CronacaItaliana #Crimini #Criminali #CasiIrrisolti #Misteri #Mistero #Documentari #DocITA #CrimeDoc #Indagine #Giallo #Omicidio #Assassino #Killer #SerialKiller #Noir #Racconto #Cattura #CSI #CriminalMinds #SubENG #Delitto #Delitti #Crimine #Criminale #DivinumCrime #Blu #Notte #Carlo #Lucarelli #Misteri #Italiani #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DocuITA #Netflix #Streaming #SerieTV #Serie #TV #Stagione #Completa #StagioneCompleta #Tutte #Puntate #Puntata #Episodi #Episodio
1988.05.13 - Telefono giallo 1988 - Il terzo uomo di Ludwig - Prima Parte
#Crime #TrueCrime #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Nera #CronacaItaliana #Crimini #Criminali #CasiIrrisolti #Misteri #Mistero #Documentari #DocITA #CrimeDoc #Indagine #Giallo #Omicidio #Assassino #Killer #SerialKiller #Noir #Racconto #Cattura #CSI #CriminalMinds #SubENG #Delitto #Delitti #Crimine #Criminale #DivinumCrime #Blu #Notte #Carlo #Lucarelli #Misteri #Italiani #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DocuITA #Netflix #Streaming #SerieTV #Serie #TV #Stagione #Completa #StagioneCompleta #Tutte #Puntate #Puntata #Episodi #Episodio
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00:00:00Music
00:00:58Music
00:01:28Music
00:01:47There is a third man in the Ludwig group, I am talking about the criminal group that for 8 years from 1977 to 84
00:01:56he was guilty of the death of 15 people.
00:01:59This is the hypothesis we will be working on tonight during the episode of Telefono Giallo.
00:02:05And working on this hypothesis, on this possibility, we will also compare and try to analyse two disturbing themes that concern us
00:02:15they are proposed by the current events of our days, of our era
00:02:19and that in the group's activity we will see condensed and I would say symbolized with the freezing clarity of a laboratory.
00:02:28I mean the theme of violence when it is linked to a political ideology and the theme is complex.
00:02:35A complex theme that it would be useless, naive, to try to chase away with a simple anathema, which is the theme of
00:02:44racism.
00:02:47I remember that we broadcast live from the Rai 3 studios in Rome and that this is a programme in
00:02:54which can be intervened upon.
00:02:56Anyone wishing to do so can call the Rome number, prefix 06, 8262.
00:03:03Before talking about Ludwig, I must remind viewers that last Friday's episode, the one dedicated to the tragedy of
00:03:10Ustica,
00:03:10a 19-year-old in June 1980, ended with a serious phone call, which revealed a
00:03:18unpublished detail,
00:03:19which opens a rift. An anonymous interlocutor, who claimed to be a police officer, on duty on the night of June
00:03:321980 at the Marsala air defense radar,
00:03:35He said he had received orders from his immediate superior, a marshal, to ignore what the radar had recorded.
00:03:43in the minutes that accompany the air disaster,
00:03:45to ignore and remove it. If that phone call turns out to be real, because this is not yet certain and I want
00:03:54underline it,
00:03:56If that phone call turns out to be true, it would open up an unprecedented gap in investigations that have dragged on without much desire and with
00:04:03no speed over the course of eight years.
00:04:06The newspapers and the media have given great prominence, I would like to mention just a few of them here, to that broadcast of Telefono Giallo.
00:04:14and to that phone call. This I'm showing you is the headline from the Corriere della Sera, this is the headline
00:04:23of the daily newspaper Il Messaggero
00:04:27and this is the page that the newspaper La Repubblica dedicated to the program I'm talking about.
00:04:37A striking headline, as you can see, strong, insistent, which confirms the fact that newspapers are interpreters of public opinion.
00:04:46they underlined the anxiety that on that tragedy finally a reliable word appears from those who have to give it
00:04:55truth.
00:04:56We also received a letter, another anonymous letter, but one which resonates with sincerity.
00:05:05A lady who doesn't sign her name, but then you'll see why it's worth reading, in fact we'll see it immediately,
00:05:11he says that one night in August, he took a ride down to Sicily, returning from a trip to Favignana,
00:05:17the lady who sent the letter has already recognized her missive, to a young conscript,
00:05:23recalls a conversation that has to do with the Ustica tragedy and closes by saying
00:05:28I am not signing this letter because I still don't know, after all these years, whether this revelation can have any importance,
00:05:34if so, please let me know in advance that I will get in touch with you.
00:05:38Madam, what you say is certainly important, you can contact us,
00:05:43the RAI switchboard and in all the telephone directories, there's no need to remind them,
00:05:48I don't advise you to call this evening, call me in the editorial office, sometime next week,
00:05:54What I can guarantee you is also my professional duty, it is absolute confidentiality,
00:05:58but even more, I must tell the truth, I would advise you to contact the magistrate of Marsala
00:06:03who ordered the seizure of the program of the yellow telephone broadcast last Friday,
00:06:07seizure for purely investigative purposes and which seems to have been intended with this provision,
00:06:14so to speak, to open another investigation center, in addition to that of the Education Office in Rome
00:06:19which has been dealing with this matter for a long time, another research center on the tragedy.
00:06:25She can choose what she wants to do, but I advise her to do it.
00:06:29This is finally the last thing I would like to show you, it is the page of the Verona Arena
00:06:37which he dedicated on Wednesday, the signature of his colleague Gianni Cantù instead dedicated
00:06:43on this evening's Telefono Giallo program, the mystery of Ludwig.
00:06:52I would like to point out that two people have already been arrested and even convicted in connection with this mystery.
00:07:00in the first instance. They are called Wolfgang Abel, a German, or rather a Bavarian,
00:07:07and the other Italian Marco Furlan. They received a first-instance conviction in the Supreme Court.
00:07:12at 30 years old. The second-instance trial, at the Supreme Court of Appeal, has just begun.
00:07:17We will not interfere with this process, this is our line that the spectators
00:07:24They understood and I hope they share it. We want to say, hypothesizing the existence of a third man,
00:07:31that these first two are the authors of the fact, under two charges according to the Constitution
00:07:38They remain defendants until a final verdict. However, I would like to begin by showing you the theater.
00:07:45of Ludwig's actions, those 15 murders that I mentioned at the beginning and which take place in
00:07:528-year course. Let's look at where they happened because the localization is very, in this
00:07:58A very important case. The first two murders occurred in Verona, then one in Padua,
00:08:09one in Venice, three in Vicenza, one in Trento, six massacres in Milan and one outside Italy,
00:08:30in Munich. There is also one last criminal act that fortunately is not
00:08:38completed and whose theatre was to be the small town of Castiglione delle Stiviere,
00:08:45Here, south of Lake Garda. Our colleague Andrea Barberi is in the studio with us this evening,
00:08:54Good evening Barberi, director of Brescia Oggi and Bergamo Oggi, which many viewers
00:08:59They already know him because he was here with us on other occasions. Barberi helped us
00:09:04to put things in order, to do the preliminary investigation of this program, so to speak, to put the facts in order
00:09:10which are very complex and in their darkness must be followed for what they say and for what
00:09:18which can symbolize. I would like to start from the beginning, I would like to begin
00:09:24remembering the first murder, that of a 33 year old nomad, Guerrino Spinelli, who is
00:09:30killed in the way you will now see in one night, a night that was about to end, shortly before
00:09:35of dawn, the night of August 25, 1977. Our director Fiore De Rienzo has reconstructed
00:09:43that episode based on direct testimony. Here.
00:10:26Thank you all.
00:10:56Thank you all.
00:11:26Thank you all.
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00:16:03Thank you all.
00:16:05Thank you all.
00:16:07speech made by the husband, three masked people and the husband had reported the same speech
00:16:13to the daughter. So from the first crime the hypothesis that there were three murderers began
00:16:19to flash, it begins to have a certain concreteness. Well, on concreteness I have always had
00:16:29of large reserves, it's a hypothesis. Dictated by what the reserves? By the fact that the three are
00:16:35outside, especially from testimonies, from some testimonies that the Court of Assis has disregarded,
00:16:43almost always occurred a long time after the events. That is, the texts that report,
00:16:50This is an extremely complex process, which two boys report having seen,
00:16:57three boys, often described with very different characteristics from those who later turned out to be
00:17:01to be accused in the trial. I trust you. Barberi, you have been on the hypothesis of the three since the first
00:17:07crime? In some crimes, I think there are three, in others, no, there are two. There are definitely
00:17:14Some of the crimes in which two people are involved. Other cases like this, well, I don't understand.
00:17:20how can you not believe these two women.
00:17:27I would like that, before we return at length to this thing which is one of the main thorns
00:17:34about our program this evening, I would like you, Barberi, to tell us, Ludwig in the meantime,
00:17:39Where does this German, Germanizing acronym come from? What does it mean?
00:17:45This is one of the mysteries of this case. Undoubtedly, all the magistrates who have dealt with the case
00:17:50They tried to understand what Ludwig meant. They examined literary works,
00:17:56They have entered history, among the Saints, in music, in cinema. For example, in cinema
00:18:03there is the Visconti film, Ludwig also thought that the idea could have been born
00:18:07from this film. Ludwig refers to King Ludwig II of Bavaria, the mad protector king
00:18:12by Wagner. A German writer of this century, Otto Ludwig, wrote an opera,
00:18:18The Maccabees. They are Jewish priests who order the killing of prostitutes and homosexuals.
00:18:28and of unfaithful priests, let's say. Well, it was also thought that it could be born
00:18:34from this. Furthermore, Maccabees means hammer. Since the hammer is used a lot
00:18:42in these crimes a certain caution. Another one, the work of Ignazio Silone
00:18:48and the adventure of a poor Christian. There is a Brother Ludwig, Bruder Ludwig, in German.
00:18:56Among other things, this book was found in the German edition in the house of one of the two defendants,
00:19:03evidently of the German defendant. I would like you to remember now, Barberi,
00:19:08Please, what other crimes and against which victims are committed after the first?
00:19:15that we just saw reconstructed? It gets to 15, however those immediately
00:19:19next ones. The first one is that of Luciano Stefanato, who is a homosexual waiter of
00:19:2644 years old. This man was found in his car with a knife stuck in his neck.
00:19:32and one in the lower back, in addition to other stab wounds. Was it a homosexual? Was it
00:19:37of a homosexual, a waiter from Padua. Then there is the murder of Claudio Sala, this
00:19:42Claudio Costa is a 22-year-old drug addict. The murder took place on Corso Canal.
00:19:47in Venice? Costa. Claudio Costa. Claudio Costa. Not Sala. Yes, yes, a little slip.
00:19:53And wounds to the chest, back, and head, all stabbed. Maria Alice Barretta
00:20:02she is a prostitute over 55 years old who is killed in Vicenza with blows from an axe, massacred
00:20:10even. Thanks Barberi. We are therefore talking about the victims of these first crimes, a
00:20:15a nomad, a homosexual, a drug addict, a drug addict, a prostitute. Almost a sampling of that
00:20:22of that marginalization, of those marginalized people who are one of the painful characteristics
00:20:29of our society. And for every crime, a claim. Sooner or later, the claim comes.
00:20:36punctual, detailed, with precise elements as also recalled by the lawyer Guarienti
00:20:41that can have the paternity of the crime recognized and above all a written claim
00:20:49in a way that I would like you to be shown. Here, a claim that begins with this
00:20:55left, the Nazi eagle clutching the swastika in its talons, the swastika
00:21:02and the heading Ludwig and below at the end of the claim that motto that the SS had
00:21:11engraved on the belt buckle which in this case sounds blasphemous, Gott mit uns,
00:21:18God is with us. Which God is this? Only the deranged mind of a madman could possibly tell us.
00:21:26explain. After the crimes that Barberi recalled, another one occurs. On July 20th, a date
00:21:33which we will talk about later due to its reference and symbolic importance, on July 20th
00:21:37In 1982, two friars from the Monte Berico community were brutally murdered.
00:21:46as we now see in this reconstruction based on the testimony of one of their brothers.
00:21:51Let's look at it together.
00:22:33Thank you all.
00:22:43Here, we have the habit when dinner ends and also lunch, even dinner, that
00:22:49Everyone takes plates and forks and brings them to the cart. Then one takes the cart.
00:22:58and takes it to the kitchen and then everyone is free. The elderly usually walk around the square.
00:23:08of the church. The younger ones go to play bowls. And whoever wants to goes for a walk. Especially
00:23:19these are the brothers who during the day are always at home or sitting where they collect
00:23:31Masses or in the sacristy if they wish to move. And these are the three usual brothers
00:23:39that in the evening they moved because, I want a little bit, they needed movement
00:23:46air. And that evening, however, two of them went out only because the third was tired, also because
00:23:54He's a bit heartbroken. So he immediately feels the fatigue, a little more than usual.
00:24:01He stayed at home. And then they usually went for a walk. They had three directions, either up to the
00:24:11museum, or on Viale Cialdini, or down the porticoes. In short, there's no fixed destination,
00:24:20but they only moved freely. And that evening they went up.
00:24:38It is our office the role of the madman.
00:25:13Thank you all.
00:25:41Thank you all.
00:26:08Thank you all.
00:26:38Thank you all.
00:26:46Thank you all.
00:27:11After the first impression, we were also speechless for a moment, he said I'm going to warn the cleaning, this
00:27:22the other in Father Pendin.
00:27:29I'm waiting, I'm saying it.
00:27:32For that moment without any fear, after a while, after five minutes, six, seven minutes, I was scared too.
00:27:40Besides finding myself right there next to these two, one dead and the other with his face on the ground just like that
00:27:47he was rounding up his, with all this blood, all this thing, there was the blood of one who joined the
00:27:53other's blood.
00:27:54It was really scary, the face of Brother Joseph who was on his back, so I looked carefully.
00:28:04I had, it seemed like he was still crying, his mouth was like that, in fact, when you die they say you come back to everyone
00:28:16how many, instead he was left with his face still really sore.
00:28:22And he had, in his eyes, he still had tears, in his eyes, because I bent down, I looked a little,
00:28:29to see a little, by touching it, if it was a little, if it gave any sign of life.
00:28:38There were supposed to be three friars who that evening, like every evening, had to leave the convent for their evening walk,
00:28:47instead there were two by a simple accident and three were the weapons ready, two hammers and an axe, the latter
00:28:54it was not used.
00:28:55Another small piece adds to the hypothesis that there were three victims.
00:29:00In relation to this double homicide, however, there is a witness who says she saw three figures, an hour before
00:29:08approximately, that the incident occurred with plastic bags similar to those that were later actually found.
00:29:14The witness says she recognized one of these three as a young man who had previously committed a vulgar act.
00:29:24and offensive, which is not worth dwelling on, in his place.
00:29:29We have also collected his testimony. We offer it to you, we have altered and hidden his features for reasons of
00:29:39safety. Let's listen to it together.
00:29:43Madam, you asked not to be filmed in the face because you want to avoid further inconvenience. It seems that you, for having
00:29:50she thought she was doing her duty as a citizen, then she had problems that still weigh on her.
00:30:00Would you like to tell us about the episode?
00:30:05So, it was a Tuesday, a Tuesday in July, it was late afternoon, around seven in the evening, with my husband
00:30:17and my little girl.
00:30:18We went up to the church of Monteverico and stopped in the church for about ten minutes.
00:30:27I was left alone here because the little girl was throwing a tantrum and my husband took her out.
00:30:35and when I went out to look for them, I went out from the side right where there were these three boys that I
00:30:42noticed,
00:30:44who were leaning on the parapet along the road, they had brown plastic bags, with some
00:30:54written,
00:30:56and they were leaning against this parapet, they were joking among themselves, one was sitting and looking at the church, let's say,
00:31:06and nothing, I stopped because I was a bit struck by their way of dressing, their way of
00:31:13Do
00:31:13and I thought I recognized among one of them a young man who had done it in my place a few days before.
00:31:23a somewhat particular act.
00:31:28Then I stayed to observe them for five minutes, no more, I went around the church again from the outside this time
00:31:38and where I found my husband already waiting for me in the car, I got in and we went back down the road
00:31:46opposite direction.
00:31:49Here we say that we took the road slowly just to see, to notice something more about these guys
00:31:58because honestly they had shown me some faces that were a bit ambiguous, a bit strange that make you think even just
00:32:09to see them from afar
00:32:10and I didn't see them again because evidently they had already taken the little road and when we passed by
00:32:17we didn't notice the car.
00:32:22How old were they approximately?
00:32:24Well, they ranged from 18 to 22 at most, 25 exactly, but they weren't 25, very young.
00:32:34How did she then associate it?
00:32:38Well, I associated the fact because the next morning in the Vicenza newspaper I read the article about this
00:32:50event that happened
00:32:51that they had found these abandoned bags, these bags that I later recognized when I went to the police station
00:32:59and then I called of my own free will because I thought it was right to be able to say the little that I had seen
00:33:10which in fact was little.
00:33:14Trust two friars of a religious community.
00:33:18An explanation that will be given and that in the distorted logic of this murderous group may be credible.
00:33:25is that those two friars symbolized in the eyes of the assassins that lax church too inclined
00:33:31and too willing to forgive the evils and sins of the world.
00:33:36A church that has almost become, through over-understanding, a participant in the same vices.
00:33:42which instead should condemn.
00:33:45This is always according to the logic of a group like the one we are knowing and describing.
00:33:51I remind viewers that we are broadcasting live from Rome, from the Rai 3 studios.
00:33:56and that anyone who wants to participate in this program can do so by calling the number 8262 using the prefix 06
00:34:04which now appears as an overlay.
00:34:07What you see next to me is a possible sketch of the third man, let's call him that.
00:34:15A third man, a portrait that has been reconstructed on the basis of testimonies
00:34:21from which a certain amount of time has passed and which in any case can have a certain indicative value
00:34:27and that's why we're showing it to you.
00:34:31While the video was being aired, Professor Sabino Acquaviva joined us in the studio.
00:34:35Good evening, Professor in Padua, thank you for coming.
00:34:40You have spoken out several times, Professor Acquaviva, and you are very well known on the subject of violence.
00:34:48and what's more, he lives and teaches in a city that has been the scene of political violence in recent years.
00:34:56Padua, how do you explain the fact that this small, kind city in the Veneto, very kind,
00:35:02did this happen?
00:35:04There are several reasons.
00:35:05There is a violence, let's say, underlying which is due more generally to the fact that the Veneto
00:35:12It is a region that was deeply agricultural and which in a few years has transformed itself
00:35:17until it became one of the most industrialized regions in Italy.
00:35:20This has thrown values, traditions and habits into crisis.
00:35:24This is part of the speech.
00:35:26Then if we want to get down to this type of violence, these young people who basically
00:35:34they would seem to be rooted in the Veneto, so there are several factors at play here.
00:35:39One of the factors is probably of a predominantly historical nature.
00:35:42That is, let's not forget that the Veneto saw the end of the Republic of Salò and saw
00:35:51the end of a certain ancient fascist culture in which terrorism, in which racism and
00:36:01political violence had a significant space, also because they had lived during the war.
00:36:06Their end left a black thread, so to speak, that dragged on
00:36:11over the years, from which some political phenomena that we know have emerged.
00:36:15But, sorry to interrupt, you don't remember what you were about to say.
00:36:19I was interested, and I believe the spectators too, in the fact that in Padua, curiously,
00:36:26This is where extremist places are born.
00:36:29Both right-wing violent extremism and left-wing violent extremism are born.
00:36:32Yes, but I don't think the matrix is the same.
00:36:35That is, while left-wing violent extremism is linked precisely to this social transformation
00:36:41deep.
00:36:42It's quick.
00:36:44It's quick.
00:36:45So it is a fairly widespread phenomenon, I wouldn't say mass, but consistent, which is linked
00:36:52to the change in social strata, to the development of a new working class that came from the
00:36:57peasant environments, the partial loss by the Church of control over culture
00:37:04of the region and therefore the availability of masses of young people, because let's not forget
00:37:08that in the Veneto the crisis of the Church was not accompanied by a growth of forces
00:37:15of the institutional left, which have always been weak.
00:37:18So young people who were no longer controllable by religious structures became available
00:37:23for any experience.
00:37:24This is a unique phenomenon, because for example in Emilia and Lombardy there was a left
00:37:29strong man who recovered...
00:37:31Precisely on the subject of Emilia, I would like to show this episode of an investigation that appeared on
00:37:37recent in the Corriere della Sera, in which Dragosei among other things intervenes and makes others intervene
00:37:43she too in this investigation, describing a phenomenon that seems the same and that instead she
00:37:49he says it's not the same.
00:37:50No, it is absolutely not the same, because the terrorism of 10-15 years ago had a basis
00:37:56consistent social, that is, it was the expression of a culture that had been born much earlier,
00:38:01and which was still alive in Italian society.
00:38:04Instead, this terrorism, whether from the right or the left, is a phenomenon that concerns a few.
00:38:10groups and which is external to this culture.
00:38:13One last thing in this first phase, then we'll come back to this topic.
00:38:19in her opinion, the fact that a small group of madmen who call themselves Ludwig do all this
00:38:27these murders, we have seen on what poor victims, can be linked to the phenomenon of
00:38:33violence in Padua in what way?
00:38:35In my opinion, it is very far away, that is, political violence, when it becomes a phenomenon
00:38:41of a few people, generally has historical origins, that is, of events that happened before and
00:38:47behind this, as I said, are the problems of the Social Republic, the residues of the
00:38:51armed struggle after the period of resistance.
00:38:54Then there is a strand of violent ideological culture that survives for historical reasons and then
00:39:00there are pathological phenomena, that is, they are generally people who are psychologically
00:39:06defined as borderline, so with borderline characteristics let's say.
00:39:11It is the combination of these factors that in some cases becomes explosive.
00:39:15An explosive mix.
00:39:17Thank you, Professor Accoviva, we'll talk about this again.
00:39:20I'd like us to see another video now, though.
00:39:22It's a special film, I'll tell you that right away.
00:39:25It is the confession-story of an elderly priest called Father Pels, who
00:39:32reconstructs in his own way, in a very particular and touching manner, the circumstances
00:39:41of another bloody event, this one no longer taking place in the Veneto we have spoken about,
00:39:46but just a little further up, in Trento.
00:39:48it happened on the day, exactly the day February 26, 1983.
00:39:54In the second part of his story, Father Pels tells another fact, reconstructs another
00:39:59fact, a very curious episode that happens to him personally a year after the events with
00:40:06which begins.
00:40:07Let's listen to these two stories.
00:40:09Father Pels, Guido, rector of the Sopraggio church, in this way that recalls the
00:40:23my predecessor, Father Bison Armando, who was appointed on February 26, 1983.
00:41:05Thank you all.
00:41:21We didn't even realize right away that we had been, in fact, he tells me, but I fell,
00:41:31I hurt myself because I had received six shots to the back of the head and then he had an implant
00:41:48a chisel with its mounted by a cross in the skull.
00:41:53They were completely perplexed when they were disturbed by a car coming
00:42:04towards them and did not want to be caught in that other one and they abandoned it on the
00:42:12street and ran away.
00:42:20Thank you all.
00:42:28Thank you all.
00:42:45Exactly February 25, 1984, exactly one year later
00:42:57the surrender took place, I had celebrated the Holy Mass in the overthrow remembering that tragic
00:43:09done amidst the emotion of the faithful.
00:43:16Once the celebration of the Mass was over, around 5.15, it was all over, after the afternoon,
00:43:28it was all over and I withdrew and took off my vestments while the Sacristan,
00:43:38etc., the others were clearing the church and the people all came out, there had been a large number
00:43:48the intervention of the people on that occasion.
00:43:53The church was deserted and I had already arranged everything so that I could leave and close
00:44:03in the church because it no longer had any purpose in forming me, since I had to go to my convent
00:44:14immediately after.
00:44:16and here I am coming out of the Sacristy and I see myself in front of it when I am about to turn off the lights
00:44:35two young people sitting on the first bench, but in a somewhat strange way, not sitting so simply
00:44:49close to each other as if one was about to move or jump in,
00:44:58a somewhat suspicious attitude.
00:45:18and I faced them like this, I didn't say anything, I just expected something from them.
00:45:29I immediately saw that one of them sits with his head rather lowered on the desk, his hands on his face
00:45:44so as not to be recognized.
00:45:47This made me a little suspicious, especially since it was logical to remember the anniversary.
00:45:58The other one looks at me, stands up, stares into my face, sits down again, whispers a word to me,
00:46:12I don't know what he said to the other, he gets up and asks me.
00:46:17with a foreign accent that I immediately recognized because I spent many years abroad, in Austria,
00:46:27so he asks me, is he asking the church right away?
00:46:35I without even waiting a moment, immediately, immediately, I don't have time, go away, immediately,
00:46:49he remains a little perplexed, looks at me again, sits down,
00:46:54then he gets up again, looks at me, then he turned to his companion and said
00:47:08this expression in German dialect which means let's go,
00:47:16He made a big impression on me right away and confirmed that he was German.
00:47:25went home with much hesitation after an hour and a half of wandering around in fear,
00:47:34perhaps fearing that I was being followed, the Carabinieri marshal immediately informed me
00:47:44who had always urged me to keep him informed if there was any news on this,
00:47:52on the events of Father Bisogno.
00:47:58He came a few days later and I gave a statement,
00:48:07as I described before.
00:48:14at the end of the deposition he offered me some photographs,
00:48:19look here to see if there's anyone you might recognize.
00:48:26He first presented me with three photographs,
00:48:30after a moment I looked at this one for sure
00:48:35and I could ask if it is perhaps German or this?
00:48:43I asked and he said yes, it was Aben.
00:48:52This story by Father Pers contains an element that further supports the hypothesis
00:48:59that there is a third person, at least one third person in the Ludwig group.
00:49:04In fact, the two young men who presented themselves to him in church a year after the death of Father Bisogno
00:49:09and who talk to each other,
00:49:10the two speak to each other in German.
00:49:12Now since we know that one of the two current defendants is Italian and the other is German,
00:49:18It is obvious that if the two speak German to each other
00:49:22this other one had to be German too
00:49:25and it's not the person we know.
00:49:29Professor Garavaglia is now in the studio,
00:49:34Good evening, professor, criminologist and psychiatrist.
00:49:36who listeners know for having been with us several times
00:49:41and enlightened us with his opinion.
00:49:45Professor, we would like you to enlighten us on this case too.
00:49:48a series of murders of this kind
00:49:52What psychological profile does your specific experience in criminology dictate?
00:49:58At first glance, assuming that the authors or the author are the same
00:50:04for this series of murders
00:50:08and this same or these same authors
00:50:12have advertised or attempted to advertise
00:50:16and ideologize their behaviors
00:50:19seen from the outside without knowing the protagonists
00:50:23so the diagnosis that is made is
00:50:26they are driven by a paranoid way of being
00:50:30these people or these people
00:50:32that is, it appears from the outside, seen from the outside
00:50:35a crime that leads to no benefit
00:50:39on a concrete level for those who do it
00:50:42if not to satisfy one's own requests
00:50:46ideological
00:50:47even if paradoxically ideological
00:50:50it is a behavior that is usually defined as paranoid
00:50:55where exactly
00:50:56the rights of ideology are often like this
00:51:00they certainly don't bring any benefit
00:51:02exactly, exactly, exactly
00:51:03there is always a basis of idea
00:51:07a bottom of something
00:51:09which is a thought
00:51:12which is an emotional motivation
00:51:14which is a psychological need anyway
00:51:19so that is next to what is our normal way
00:51:23paranus the Greeks would say
00:51:25no, paranoid
00:51:26that is, next to our way
00:51:28and therefore satisfies a way of being in the world
00:51:31of these people, paranoid
00:51:33Professor Caravaglia
00:51:35I'm broadening the question
00:51:36she would define paranoid
00:51:37every terrorist crime?
00:51:41Certainly
00:51:42I repeat
00:51:43seen from the outside
00:51:44any criminal act
00:51:48seen from the outside
00:51:48that is, seen on an objective level
00:51:50then when you know the subject
00:51:52things can change a lot
00:51:53seen from the outside
00:51:55and statistically speaking
00:51:57and given the connotations
00:51:59of a behavior
00:52:00which for us is non-finalistic
00:52:03that is, without purpose
00:52:04without purpose
00:52:05for us
00:52:06for our logic
00:52:06we've already talked about this once before
00:52:08but for the logic of these people
00:52:11then let's say
00:52:12it's a paranoid type of motivation
00:52:15that is, next to our way of thinking
00:52:17this does not take away the fact that when we get to know people
00:52:20maybe instead we see that the motivations are different
00:52:23Thank you Professor Caravaglia
00:52:25we will return to this topic too
00:52:27colleague Gianni Cantù
00:52:28good evening Cantù
00:52:29of the Verona Arena
00:52:30I would like Cantù to tell us
00:52:32having reported it as a chronicler
00:52:35tell us another episode
00:52:37the one which took place in that small town
00:52:41in that abandoned Austrian fort
00:52:43and who also saw a victim there
00:52:45How did things go?
00:52:47It was the eve of May 24, 1981
00:52:52May 24th
00:52:55it was a Sunday
00:52:57it was scheduled
00:52:59the national donation of the Alpine troops
00:53:02at night
00:53:03there was a fire
00:53:05in the crazy house
00:53:07it was an Austrian artillery position
00:53:10in defense of the Adige
00:53:12in defense of the city
00:53:13a fire in which
00:53:16three boys were burned
00:53:18one of whom died
00:53:20and he was a student from Turin
00:53:22Luca Martinotti
00:53:2318 years old
00:53:26another was saved
00:53:28he later died in a car accident
00:53:29six months later
00:53:33about this crime
00:53:35I
00:53:36by chance
00:53:37had the opportunity to argue with Ludwig
00:53:39In what sense?
00:53:41there are some claims
00:53:44I see here
00:53:45about that arrogo of San Giorgio
00:53:47as I called it
00:53:48in my newspaper
00:53:50and the name was borrowed from Ludwig
00:53:54St. George's arrogation
00:53:57this is the claim
00:54:00this is the claim
00:54:01but it is the claim
00:54:04of the friars of Monteberico
00:54:06in which reference is made
00:54:10in hindsight
00:54:12to the crime of San Giorgio
00:54:14Now
00:54:16I was convinced
00:54:19who
00:54:20had sent
00:54:21that message
00:54:22he had to be from Verona
00:54:24because he had read certain things
00:54:26in dispute with me
00:54:27he had made this message
00:54:29and then again in controversy
00:54:32with my newspaper
00:54:33he made that second message
00:54:35in which it was said
00:54:37that had been left
00:54:38some things
00:54:42How did the controversy end?
00:54:43this circumstance
00:54:43found no response
00:54:44found no response
00:54:45it ended with nothing done
00:54:46because there were
00:54:47two different processes
00:54:48which do not concern
00:54:50Ludwig
00:54:51ended up with nothing done
00:54:53because there were
00:54:54on one side
00:54:54of the acquittals
00:54:56or with full formula
00:54:58wide
00:54:59or with a doubtful formula
00:55:01another process
00:55:04it also ended with nothing done
00:55:05because the person in charge
00:55:08it was declared
00:55:09not punishable
00:55:10due to total infirmity
00:55:11of mind
00:55:11thanks Cantor
00:55:12I would like us now
00:55:14we welcomed you into the studio
00:55:16and we felt
00:55:16the professor's opinion
00:55:18good evening professor
00:55:20Gian Enrico Rusconi
00:55:21please come in
00:55:21on that site
00:55:23after this phone call
00:55:25ready?
00:55:26ready
00:55:26Good evening
00:55:27Good evening
00:55:28here we are
00:55:29listen
00:55:30I am the magistrate
00:55:33which preceded
00:55:35the court of assisted persons of Verona
00:55:36ah good evening doctor
00:55:38Good evening
00:55:38I am Dr. Raidone
00:55:40Mr.
00:55:41the journalist Gattughe
00:55:42near her
00:55:43he remembers me
00:55:45so
00:55:46I wanted to clarify
00:55:48something
00:55:49in relation
00:55:50to the deposition
00:55:51by Father Pels
00:55:52sorry I didn't understand
00:55:54in relation?
00:55:55to the deposition
00:55:56by Father Pels
00:55:58Pels
00:55:59yes exactly
00:55:59When
00:56:00the priest
00:56:03he spoke
00:56:03of the accent
00:56:04clearly
00:56:05German
00:56:06of the one who turned
00:56:09I think that
00:56:10he said
00:56:11one thing
00:56:12inaccurate
00:56:13and that does not confirm
00:56:15that it could be treated
00:56:16of the Abel
00:56:17which he then states
00:56:18to have recognized
00:56:18why the Abel
00:56:19as he thinks
00:56:20the journalist
00:56:22Cantu
00:56:23and how
00:56:24it's the result
00:56:26from the process
00:56:27he had studied
00:56:28in Italy
00:56:29and he spoke
00:56:30Italian
00:56:30perfectly
00:56:31without accent
00:56:32on the other hand
00:56:34if the neighbor
00:56:36if the one near
00:56:37had been
00:56:37the defendant
00:56:38Italian
00:56:38he went frequently
00:56:41in Germany
00:56:42and then
00:56:43he spoke German
00:56:44so there are
00:56:45there is something
00:56:46that not
00:56:47convincing
00:56:48doctor
00:56:49it's exactly
00:56:50the reverse
00:56:51of reasoning
00:56:52what we did
00:56:53and therefore
00:56:54so to speak
00:56:55the counterpart
00:56:57Yes
00:56:58some
00:57:00listen
00:57:01some answers
00:57:02even if evidently
00:57:04not conclusive
00:57:05not definitive
00:57:06to someone
00:57:06some questions
00:57:07that she is asking
00:57:08in this
00:57:09premise
00:57:10which is really
00:57:10interesting
00:57:11she can do it
00:57:12some answers
00:57:13you can find it
00:57:13in the motivation
00:57:14of the sentence
00:57:15of the race
00:57:16from Sisi of first degree
00:57:17it's not that it constitutes
00:57:18a truth
00:57:19but there is
00:57:20is there any answer
00:57:22Thank you
00:57:24of the indication
00:57:25Thank you for calling
00:57:27we will look for this one
00:57:29in the course
00:57:30of the interval
00:57:31why now
00:57:32we received
00:57:33thank you very much
00:57:34the professor
00:57:35Rusconi
00:57:36that teaches
00:57:37in Turin
00:57:37political science
00:57:38to which I would like
00:57:40to address
00:57:41a question
00:57:42this group
00:57:43grazes
00:57:44continuously
00:57:45and it is produced
00:57:46in a series
00:57:47of murders
00:57:49that I am
00:57:50traceable
00:57:51keep away
00:57:52to the matrix
00:57:53racist
00:57:54she
00:57:55what kind
00:57:57of culture
00:57:58it traces back
00:57:59this ideology
00:58:00based on
00:58:02to that
00:58:03which is read
00:58:04here
00:58:04evidently
00:58:05themselves
00:58:06they refer to
00:58:07to Nazism
00:58:09a statement
00:58:10Enough
00:58:11brutal
00:58:13mind-blowing
00:58:14but looking at it carefully
00:58:15this text
00:58:17also demonstrates
00:58:19which are pieces
00:58:20of the fragments
00:58:21disorganized
00:58:22that is, I wouldn't see
00:58:24a connection
00:58:24direct
00:58:25between that
00:58:27which was
00:58:28the doctrine
00:58:28racist
00:58:29let's call her
00:58:30traditional
00:58:31in all its aspects
00:58:33and these fragments
00:58:35of these people
00:58:36Meaning what
00:58:36it is necessary to distinguish
00:58:38racism
00:58:39in its matrix
00:58:41also cultural
00:58:42be it pure
00:58:43tragic
00:58:44who had
00:58:45his great
00:58:46expression
00:58:47over the years
00:58:4730 and 40
00:58:48with a consent
00:58:50cultural
00:58:51huge
00:58:51and these fragments
00:58:53that could
00:58:54be everyone
00:58:55arbitrary
00:58:56ready?
00:58:57ready?
00:58:57Yes
00:58:57I am a lady
00:58:59who called
00:59:00for the case
00:59:02of Spinelli
00:59:03who is dead
00:59:04in Verona
00:59:04yes ma'am
00:59:05do you know?
00:59:07Certain
00:59:07what is sent
00:59:08in video
00:59:08in prime time
00:59:09that's it
00:59:10with which
00:59:11we opened
00:59:12this broadcast
00:59:13because it's the first
00:59:14crime
00:59:14of the group
00:59:15Monday
00:59:15Exactly
00:59:16and it happened to me
00:59:18it happened
00:59:20that to his wife
00:59:21of Spinelli
00:59:23about 15-20 days ago
00:59:25it was burned
00:59:27the caravan
00:59:28in the exact same way
00:59:29system
00:59:30how it was
00:59:31her husband was murdered
00:59:32practically
00:59:33with a bottle
00:59:34Molopov
00:59:35where madam
00:59:36Where did it happen?
00:59:37it happened
00:59:38nearby
00:59:39from Bologna
00:59:39ah
00:59:40she
00:59:41Did Cantù know?
00:59:43Please
00:59:43No
00:59:44I was asking my colleague
00:59:45Cantu
00:59:45that of the Verona Arena
00:59:47if he knew this fact
00:59:49but he came out
00:59:50in the newspapers
00:59:51so to speak?
00:59:51I do not believe
00:59:52because I knew it
00:59:53just by chance
00:59:54and I heard
00:59:56the lady
00:59:57That
00:59:58poor thing
00:59:59in his despair
01:00:00he said
01:00:00they want to crowd me
01:00:01why don't you talk
01:00:02on the killing
01:00:03of my husband
01:00:04who is dead
01:00:05that they piled it up
01:00:06many years ago
01:00:07in Verona
01:00:07etc. etc.
01:00:09Please
01:00:10this speech is interesting
01:00:12yes it's very interesting
01:00:13actually more than interesting
01:00:14then I'll explain why
01:00:15no, explain it right away
01:00:16shall we explain it right away?
01:00:18briefly
01:00:18All right
01:00:20Guerrino Spinelli's widow
01:00:24he said
01:00:24in the immediate aftermath of the event
01:00:26to the head of the Verona mobile squad
01:00:29than to kill her husband
01:00:30they had been nomads
01:00:31of a rival clan
01:00:33and he was afraid
01:00:35of those nomads
01:00:35certainly not
01:00:36by Ludwig
01:00:37which was not talked about
01:00:38in 77
01:00:38I understand
01:00:40so it could be explained
01:00:41now this new fact
01:00:42oh yeah
01:00:42thank you ma'am
01:00:44of this intervention of his
01:00:46and thank you
01:00:46of the testimony
01:00:48what do we put
01:00:50in memory
01:00:50of this broadcast
01:00:52and then
01:00:53in the second part
01:00:53we will discuss
01:00:54more widely
01:00:55Professor Rusconi
01:00:56we were saying
01:00:58of these two aspects
01:00:59I think that
01:01:00if we want to do
01:01:00a serious conversation
01:01:02it is necessary to distinguish
01:01:03racism
01:01:04as a historical fact
01:01:06and possibly
01:01:07like his
01:01:08underground stay
01:01:10Today
01:01:11as a collective fact
01:01:12Here you are
01:01:13and this specific episode
01:01:15what we are talking about
01:01:16this specific episode
01:01:17that is, Ludwig's
01:01:18by Ludwig
01:01:19Where
01:01:19as far as
01:01:20understand so far
01:01:21the reference
01:01:23racist
01:01:23it's quite extrinsic
01:01:25culturally
01:01:26speaking
01:01:27and how
01:01:28as he says
01:01:29they were
01:01:29of people
01:01:30evidently
01:01:31in a pathological state
01:01:33that they use
01:01:33this language
01:01:34which doesn't seem like it to me
01:01:36convincing
01:01:37to establish
01:01:38on the basis
01:01:38of these pieces
01:01:39paper
01:01:40a direct connection
01:01:41between
01:01:42what I call
01:01:43historical racism
01:01:44and this phenomenon
01:01:46Thank you
01:01:46this does not take away
01:01:46evidently
01:01:47what racism
01:01:48then there is
01:01:48and we'll talk about it
01:01:49we'll talk about it
01:01:50certainly
01:01:51in the second part
01:01:52of this program
01:01:53I just wanted
01:01:54that the theme
01:01:55was introduced
01:01:56in this program
01:01:57because it's a topic
01:01:58that is upon us
01:01:59so to speak
01:02:00now we have to move on
01:02:02because after the facts
01:02:03that we remembered
01:02:05up to this point
01:02:06the Ludwig group
01:02:08widen
01:02:09so to speak
01:02:09tragically widens
01:02:11his business
01:02:12and who knows
01:02:13a turning point
01:02:15before seeing
01:02:16how
01:02:17this turning point
01:02:18took place
01:02:18and what tragic ones
01:02:19consequences
01:02:20they got it
01:02:21I would like to remember
01:02:22once again
01:02:22our phone number
01:02:24which is 8262
01:02:25with the prefix 06
01:02:26always for the area
01:02:28for those who call
01:02:29from outside Rome
01:02:29and I would also like
01:02:31that we remember
01:02:32what happened
01:02:34up to this point
01:02:35in the criminal
01:02:36activity
01:02:37by Ludwig
01:02:38Guerrino Spinelli
01:02:39also recalled
01:02:40from the phone call
01:02:41a little while ago
01:02:42he is killed
01:02:43in 77
01:02:43the waiter
01:02:45Luciano Stefanato
01:02:46in 78
01:02:47Claudio Costa
01:02:49in 79
01:02:50the drug addict
01:02:5222 years old
01:02:53little more
01:02:53a very young man
01:02:55Maria Alice Barretta
01:02:57the prostitute
01:02:58over 50
01:02:59in 80
01:03:00Luca Martinotti
01:03:01in '81
01:03:01the two friars
01:03:03of Monteberico
01:03:04in '82
01:03:04Armando Bison
01:03:05the other priest
01:03:06in '83
01:03:078 victims
01:03:08you noticed
01:03:09like us
01:03:10on the dates
01:03:1177
01:03:1178
01:03:1279
01:03:1380
01:03:1381
01:03:1482
01:03:1483
01:03:16tragically
01:03:17scanned
01:03:18year after year
01:03:19the names
01:03:20of the victims
01:03:21and the facts
01:03:22of blood
01:03:23that follow one another
01:03:24Now
01:03:25it happens
01:03:26the new fact
01:03:27we are
01:03:27with the latest victim
01:03:28in February
01:03:29of '83
01:03:30in May
01:03:32of '83
01:03:32Exactly
01:03:335 years ago
01:03:34happens
01:03:35in Milan
01:03:36a fire
01:03:37a big fire
01:03:38in which
01:03:39they die
01:03:396 people
01:03:40it's on fire
01:03:41a cinema
01:03:42red light district
01:03:43red light district
01:03:44the erox
01:03:45sexy center
01:03:47in which
01:03:47that day
01:03:48unhappy
01:03:49was projected
01:03:50the film
01:03:51Laila
01:03:51perfume
01:03:52of female
01:03:53we see in the story
01:03:54of the manager's son
01:03:55what's happening
01:03:56I'm Claudio Cecero
01:03:58the owner's son
01:04:00of the cinema
01:04:00Eros
01:04:01burned
01:04:01in May
01:04:03of 1983
01:04:04and remedied
01:04:06from the group
01:04:07Ludwig
01:04:07I
01:04:08that day
01:04:09I wasn't present
01:04:10in Milan
01:04:11but I was
01:04:12at the festival
01:04:13of Cannes
01:04:14I was reached
01:04:16from a phone call
01:04:17by employees
01:04:19saying of
01:04:19return immediately
01:04:21in Milan
01:04:22why cinema
01:04:23Eros
01:04:23era
01:04:25was set on fire
01:04:26at first
01:04:27No
01:04:28ideas of great importance
01:04:29Why
01:04:29as the cinema
01:04:31was owned
01:04:32and we just had it
01:04:33renovated
01:04:33with all methods
01:04:34and the systems
01:04:35flame retardant
01:04:36I believe
01:04:37had been burned
01:04:38an armchair
01:04:41a velvet
01:04:42and then
01:04:42I rushed
01:04:44yes but
01:04:45pretty sure
01:04:46of the
01:04:48that it wasn't
01:04:49nothing happened
01:04:50of tragic
01:04:51I arrived
01:04:52in Milan
01:04:53towards evening
01:04:54And
01:04:57it wasn't there anymore
01:04:58nothing more
01:04:58of the cinema
01:04:59there were only
01:05:00the coals
01:05:00the flames
01:05:01they had already been
01:05:02turned off
01:05:02there was only
01:05:03the police
01:05:04and the firefighters
01:05:06that are operating
01:05:08the latest operations
01:05:10of shutdown
01:05:13as far as I remember
01:05:15and what they told me
01:05:15my employees
01:05:20that day
01:05:21three people
01:05:23they introduced themselves
01:05:24at the cinema
01:05:24one of these
01:05:25had a
01:05:26bag
01:05:27sporty
01:05:28those usually
01:05:30to go to the gym
01:05:31And
01:05:32Yes
01:05:33they entered
01:05:34in the cinema
01:05:34After
01:05:35a bit
01:05:36of time
01:05:37these three
01:05:38Boys
01:05:39they went out
01:05:41in step
01:05:42quite fast
01:05:46done this
01:05:47That
01:05:47he is curious
01:05:48the cashier
01:05:48of the operator
01:05:49that was close
01:05:50to the cashier
01:05:51Why
01:05:52it was assumed
01:05:53that maybe
01:05:53the painting had come down
01:05:54or there were
01:05:55of the disorders
01:05:55in the hall
01:05:56and to a question
01:05:57of the operator
01:06:00recovering
01:06:01these three characters
01:06:02what was going on
01:06:02happening in the room
01:06:03these gentlemen
01:06:05they said
01:06:06no nothing
01:06:07there is nothing
01:06:08of worrying
01:06:09Enough
01:06:10and they went out
01:06:11fast enough
01:06:12after a few seconds
01:06:14the fact happened
01:06:15because there have been
01:06:16of the flames
01:06:17very high
01:06:18of the fumes
01:06:18and then
01:06:19I think that
01:06:20within half an hour
01:06:21the weather
01:06:22to intervene
01:06:23the firefighters
01:06:24it was enough
01:06:27tragic
01:06:27Why
01:06:27It was raining in Milan
01:06:28on Saturday afternoon
01:06:30around 4 or 5
01:06:31let's say that
01:06:31practically
01:06:32they arrived
01:06:32to put out the flames
01:06:33and the cinema
01:06:35it doesn't exist
01:06:35Today
01:06:36When
01:06:38after a year
01:06:39about
01:06:40it happened
01:06:41the fact
01:06:42of the disco
01:06:43Melamara
01:06:44of Vierona
01:06:46Furlan and Abel
01:06:47they were arrested
01:06:48because they were caught in the act
01:06:49and then
01:06:50were published
01:06:51their photographs
01:06:52in the newspapers
01:06:53my mother
01:06:54I remember
01:06:54that my mother
01:06:55and my father
01:06:58they recognized
01:06:59these two
01:07:02gentlemen
01:07:02as
01:07:04frequenters
01:07:05of the cinema
01:07:06Eros
01:07:06Before
01:07:07of the fire
01:07:08Meaning what
01:07:08a month before
01:07:0915 days before
01:07:10these two gentlemen
01:07:12they had seen each other
01:07:12two or three times
01:07:13in the cinema
01:07:14And
01:07:14at this point
01:07:16we considered
01:07:18that not
01:07:18they came to the cinema
01:07:19to see
01:07:20of the films
01:07:21but
01:07:21to do
01:07:22of the inspections
01:07:23and see
01:07:25precisely
01:07:26how to do it
01:07:27to implement
01:07:29their
01:07:32attack
01:07:35after a while
01:07:36I asked myself
01:07:37Why
01:07:38precisely
01:07:39own
01:07:39this cinema
01:07:40in Milan
01:07:41given that
01:07:41at the time
01:07:42there were almost
01:07:4325
01:07:43and the only one
01:07:45reason
01:07:45for which
01:07:46was
01:07:47made right
01:07:48the cinema
01:07:48Eros
01:07:49Perhaps
01:07:49it's because
01:07:50issued
01:07:51in one position
01:07:52so strategic
01:07:53to be
01:07:54to escape
01:07:55away
01:07:58Enough
01:07:59quickly
01:07:59Why
01:07:59it's the site
01:08:00on the way
01:08:00The Monzas
01:08:01Exactly
01:08:02under
01:08:02the cinema
01:08:03Eros
01:08:03there is the stop
01:08:04of the subway
01:08:05Therefore
01:08:05for them
01:08:06was
01:08:06very easy
01:08:08DESCEND
01:08:08below
01:08:09from four
01:08:09stairs
01:08:10And
01:08:10to move away
01:08:11Enough
01:08:11quickly
01:08:13Barberi
01:08:14even in this one
01:08:16testimony
01:08:16that we have
01:08:17just heard
01:08:18come back
01:08:18the theme
01:08:19of the three men
01:08:19of the three people
01:08:20and it is not
01:08:21the only one
01:08:22testimony
01:08:23relative
01:08:23at the cinema
01:08:25Eros
01:08:25Center
01:08:26in which
01:08:26let's talk
01:08:27of three people
01:08:29just one moment
01:08:30let's talk about it
01:08:31in a moment
01:08:31ready?
01:08:32ready?
01:08:33Yes
01:08:34Good evening
01:08:35Good evening
01:08:35I was following
01:08:36the registration
01:08:37the yellow telephone
01:08:40we feel it
01:08:42I was following
01:08:44the registration
01:08:44the yellow telephone
01:08:45for the case
01:08:46Ludovic
01:08:46unfortunately for me
01:08:48I wanted to tell you
01:08:49what I did
01:08:50an imprisonment
01:08:51with
01:08:51Me too
01:08:53and I had
01:08:53way of knowing
01:08:54Abberi
01:08:54in full
01:08:55but for me
01:08:56they look like two boys
01:08:58innocent
01:08:58they seem
01:08:59they were too quiet
01:09:00they didn't look like two boys
01:09:02how can you say
01:09:03students
01:09:05they were too quiet
01:09:07for the facts
01:09:07who accuse them
01:09:09she thinks
01:09:11that tranquility
01:09:11alone
01:09:12if it were enough
01:09:13Enough
01:09:13calm
01:09:14but for all cases
01:09:15who accuse them
01:09:16with the atrocity
01:09:17that have been committed
01:09:18everything
01:09:20they seemed to me
01:09:21he understood
01:09:24how can you say
01:09:26innocent in short
01:09:27it seemed to me
01:09:28I understand
01:09:28listen
01:09:29Thank you
01:09:30Kind
01:09:31listener
01:09:32us
01:09:32we will talk about this
01:09:34and we will make her answer
01:09:35in a little while
01:09:36in the second part
01:09:37of this program
01:09:38that goes
01:09:38on air
01:09:39after the news
01:09:40of 10
01:09:41from the
01:09:42from the psychiatrist
01:09:44Garavaglia
01:09:44that in this regard
01:09:45he has something
01:09:46to tell her
01:09:47thank you very much
01:09:49Barberi
01:09:49we were talking
01:09:50of the three
01:09:51of the three people
01:09:53in one
01:09:54of the crimes
01:09:55subsequent
01:09:56for one
01:09:56of the crimes
01:09:56subsequent
01:09:57really
01:09:57the public
01:09:58ministry
01:09:59he arrives
01:10:00to write it
01:10:01that beyond
01:10:02to the two defendants
01:10:03there is a third person
01:10:05against which he proceeds
01:10:06naturally against the unknown
01:10:07because he doesn't have
01:10:08the possibility
01:10:09to identify her
01:10:11the doctor
01:10:13lipsticks
01:10:13which is here
01:10:14Good evening
01:10:14here next to me
01:10:16she is a psychologist
01:10:16of writing
01:10:17for the idol of the court
01:10:18and therefore
01:10:19also very experienced
01:10:20of things
01:10:21of graphics
01:10:22graphology
01:10:23I would like
01:10:25that she
01:10:25he told
01:10:26to me
01:10:27and to the
01:10:28spectators
01:10:29as
01:10:30these
01:10:31strange
01:10:32messages
01:10:33accidents
01:10:34since their
01:10:35form
01:10:36from their
01:10:37presentation
01:10:38were drawn up
01:10:39that in the meantime
01:10:40what kind of writing
01:10:41is this
01:10:42and how is it done?
01:10:43to do it
01:10:43Here you are
01:10:44this is one
01:10:45writing
01:10:46which resumes
01:10:48the runic alphabet
01:10:50What is the runic alphabet?
01:10:51the runic alphabet
01:10:54in ancient times
01:10:55the runes
01:10:56they were sticks
01:10:57beech
01:10:58engraved
01:10:59with signs
01:11:00deep
01:11:01and straight lines
01:11:02and they were used
01:11:03from the Germanic peoples
01:11:04for divinations
01:11:06Tacitus tells us this
01:11:07and you know
01:11:08that were used
01:11:09every time
01:11:10before a battle
01:11:12that is, to know
01:11:13if the battle
01:11:13would it have gone well or not
01:11:14the runic alphabet
01:11:16becomes alphabet
01:11:17in the sense of structure
01:11:19only after the second century
01:11:20A.D.
01:11:21Therefore
01:11:21and when already
01:11:22there was no need
01:11:23of another alphabet
01:11:24because there were already some
01:11:25of beautiful and well-built
01:11:27the thing
01:11:29important instead
01:11:30the thing
01:11:31strange
01:11:32it's how they were written
01:11:34these
01:11:34from the Ludwig group
01:11:35own
01:11:36from people
01:11:37that they have
01:11:37drafted
01:11:38from the Ludwig group
01:11:39there is no doubt
01:11:40they are signed
01:11:41whoever they are
01:11:43whoever
01:11:43Exactly
01:11:44and they were
01:11:46have been prepared
01:11:48of the grids
01:11:48square
01:11:49so how did they do it?
01:11:50they took some grills
01:11:52checked
01:11:53squared
01:11:54Here you are
01:11:55of this type
01:11:55a sheet of squared paper
01:11:57a sheet of squared paper
01:11:58they came
01:11:59inserted under the sheet
01:12:01to write
01:12:02naturally
01:12:03this was coming
01:12:04superimposed
01:12:04a blank sheet of paper
01:12:05in pencil
01:12:06they were taken back
01:12:07the points
01:12:08and marked
01:12:09the first letters
01:12:10then go over it again
01:12:11with a ruler
01:12:12with the pen
01:12:13This
01:12:14it has a lot of importance
01:12:16from the point of view
01:12:17of psychology
01:12:18of writing
01:12:18Why
01:12:20Why
01:12:20indicates
01:12:21meanwhile
01:12:22an insecurity
01:12:24basic
01:12:24very strong
01:12:26in the sense that
01:12:26it was even possible
01:12:28pass the letter
01:12:29right away with the pen
01:12:30there was no need
01:12:31of this
01:12:32prepare
01:12:33with the pencil
01:12:35Before
01:12:35but
01:12:36becomes important
01:12:37also because
01:12:38to this insecurity
01:12:38he joins
01:12:39the meaning
01:12:40of the runic alphabet
01:12:42the meaning
01:12:43in psychology
01:12:44of writing
01:12:44choose
01:12:45this type
01:12:46of the alphabet
01:12:47that is, this writing
01:12:48of a solemn nature
01:12:49here I took it again
01:12:50right from the manual
01:12:51exactly the same
01:12:52I do not want
01:12:53interpret
01:12:54but I'll start again
01:12:55right from the manual
01:12:56this alphabet
01:12:57it means
01:12:58contempt for one's neighbor
01:12:59sense of honor
01:13:00exaggerated
01:13:01need for satisfaction
01:13:03exaggerated
01:13:04in case of dissent
01:13:05and insults
01:13:05tendency to make leagues
01:13:07with high-ranking people
01:13:08and to reject
01:13:09haughtily
01:13:10the others
01:13:10vanity
01:13:11very strong desire
01:13:13to appear
01:13:14so already the choice
01:13:15of this
01:13:16of this type
01:13:18of writing
01:13:20of this alphabet
01:13:21rather than others
01:13:21which could have been
01:13:22much easier
01:13:23also to be performed
01:13:24because this requires
01:13:25actually
01:13:26a job
01:13:27rather complex
01:13:28the choice of this
01:13:29indicates all these things
01:13:30and again
01:13:31envy and hatred
01:13:32for those
01:13:33whose qualities
01:13:33they receive just
01:13:34awards
01:13:35and then there would be more
01:13:36Thank you
01:13:37Barberi
01:13:38I saw that she
01:13:40he made great signs
01:13:42of assent
01:13:42to the analysis
01:13:43of the doctor
01:13:44Lipsticks
01:13:44but I want
01:13:46ask her something
01:13:47I don't know if it's the same thing
01:13:48what did she mean?
01:13:48this method
01:13:49of writing
01:13:53Excuse me
01:13:54ready
01:14:00Thank you
01:14:01they warn me
01:14:03that has arrived
01:14:04a letter
01:14:06in the editorial office
01:14:06and that they are
01:14:08bringing here
01:14:09and it seems like a thing
01:14:11of a certain
01:14:11seriousness
01:14:13as soon as it arrives
01:14:14we will talk about it with you
01:14:16we will give you news about it
01:14:19Barberi
01:14:20I was saying
01:14:21I saw that she
01:14:22he had been assent for decades
01:14:22I don't know if it's the same thing
01:14:23what could I ask her?
01:14:24this kind of writing
01:14:26this impression
01:14:27some sheets
01:14:27had a development
01:14:29had a consequence
01:14:30of the investigations
01:14:33Why
01:14:33in Germany
01:14:35At home
01:14:37At home
01:14:37of one of the defendants
01:14:39after the arrest
01:14:40there was a search
01:14:41and during
01:14:42this search
01:14:43they were
01:14:44was found
01:14:44a block
01:14:45of sheets
01:14:45checkered
01:14:48Exactly
01:14:48like that
01:14:49that the doctor
01:14:49showed
01:14:50only
01:14:50with a spiral
01:14:51these sheets
01:14:52checkered
01:14:53they were examined
01:14:54and to an exam
01:14:55so summary
01:14:56they gave the impression
01:14:57to be
01:14:58normal sheets
01:14:59subjected
01:15:00to a special one
01:15:01procedure
01:15:01to an expert opinion
01:15:02what is called
01:15:02ESDA
01:15:03we could explain it
01:15:03very complex
01:15:04from these sheets
01:15:06he came out
01:15:06What
01:15:07the one that comes
01:15:08defined
01:15:09latent trace
01:15:10Meaning what
01:15:10writing
01:15:12on the first sheet
01:15:14they were left
01:15:15of the engravings
01:15:16of the tracks
01:15:17which have been
01:15:18reported
01:15:19also many sheets
01:15:21under
01:15:21and those traces
01:15:22they were saying
01:15:23and those traces
01:15:24they were
01:15:25the claim
01:15:27of one
01:15:28of the crimes
01:15:30by Ludwig
01:15:31but later
01:15:32in Italy
01:15:33Also
01:15:34in one
01:15:35search
01:15:36At home
01:15:36of the other
01:15:37defendant
01:15:37they were found
01:15:39other sheets
01:15:39checkered
01:15:40with the track
01:15:41of the claim
01:15:43of another
01:15:44of the crimes
01:15:44Thank you
01:15:45the German police
01:15:47he was right
01:15:48to take care of
01:15:49of the activity
01:15:49by Ludwig
01:15:50because
01:15:51of that crime
01:15:52the umpteenth
01:15:53accomplished
01:15:53as I remembered
01:15:54at the start
01:15:54of this program
01:15:55in Monaco
01:15:56of Bavaria
01:15:57Where
01:15:58he was hanged
01:16:00fire
01:16:01to a disco
01:16:02the disco
01:16:03Liverpool
01:16:03fact in which
01:16:04he met his death
01:16:06a girl
01:16:07a little more
01:16:08what a twenty years
01:16:08to that episode
01:16:10it followed
01:16:11another
01:16:11this time
01:16:12luckily
01:16:13missed
01:16:14the episode
01:16:15of Castiglion
01:16:16of the Estiviere
01:16:17where another disco
01:16:18the Mara Apple
01:16:19was attacked
01:16:21with the modalities
01:16:21that we have rebuilt
01:16:23in the video
01:16:23what we see together now
01:16:24of Castiglion
01:16:26of Castiglion
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