Esiste un terzo uomo nel gruppo Ludwig, il gruppo criminale che dal 1977 al 1984 si è reso colpevole della morte di 15 persone? Lavorando su questa ipotesi, "Telefono giallo" cerca di analizzare due aspetti inquietanti dell'attività del gruppo: la violenza legata all'ideologia politica e il razzismo. Al momento della trasmissione, due persone sono già state condannate in primo grado: Wolfgang Abel e Marco Furlan. Il processo di secondo grado è appena cominciato ma si aprono, nel corso della puntata, linee di ricerca sull'esistenza di un terzo uomo.
1988 - Telefono giallo 1988 - Il terzo uomo di Ludwig - Seconda Parte
#Crime #TrueCrime #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Nera #CronacaItaliana #Crimini #Criminali #CasiIrrisolti #Misteri #Mistero #Documentari #DocITA #CrimeDoc #Indagine #Giallo #Omicidio #Assassino #Killer #SerialKiller #Noir #Racconto #Cattura #CSI #CriminalMinds #SubENG #Delitto #Delitti #Crimine #Criminale #DivinumCrime #Blu #Notte #Carlo #Lucarelli #Misteri #Italiani #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DocuITA #Netflix #Streaming #SerieTV #Serie #TV #Stagione #Completa #StagioneCompleta #Tutte #Puntate #Puntata #Episodi #Episodio
1988 - Telefono giallo 1988 - Il terzo uomo di Ludwig - Seconda Parte
#Crime #TrueCrime #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Nera #CronacaItaliana #Crimini #Criminali #CasiIrrisolti #Misteri #Mistero #Documentari #DocITA #CrimeDoc #Indagine #Giallo #Omicidio #Assassino #Killer #SerialKiller #Noir #Racconto #Cattura #CSI #CriminalMinds #SubENG #Delitto #Delitti #Crimine #Criminale #DivinumCrime #Blu #Notte #Carlo #Lucarelli #Misteri #Italiani #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DocuITA #Netflix #Streaming #SerieTV #Serie #TV #Stagione #Completa #StagioneCompleta #Tutte #Puntate #Puntata #Episodi #Episodio
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TVTrascrizione
00:00:01My name is Gianni Togni, I am the manager and one of the owners of the Melamara nightclub in Castiglione e Stigliere.
00:00:10It was Sunday, March 3, 1984, our Sunday afternoon opening, everything was quiet,
00:00:21that is, no one could have predicted what would happen next, and in any case, I will explain it now.
00:00:42Thank you all.
00:01:12Thank you all.
00:01:40Thank you all.
00:02:11Thank you all.
00:02:13Thank you all.
00:02:41Thank you all.
00:02:49Thank you all.
00:03:02Thank you all.
00:03:15Thank you all.
00:03:44Thank you all.
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00:04:04Thank you all.
00:04:07Thank you all.
00:04:41Thank you all.
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00:04:47Thank you all.
00:04:52Thank you all.
00:04:58Thank you all.
00:05:06Thank you all.
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00:05:24Thank you all.
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00:05:51Thank you all.
00:06:21Thank you all.
00:06:33Thank you all.
00:06:36Thank you all.
00:06:51Thank you all.
00:07:00Thank you all.
00:07:01Thank you all.
00:07:10Thank you all.
00:07:17Thank you all.
00:07:27Thank you all.
00:07:34Thank you all.
00:07:38Thank you all.
00:07:43let's go and put out that tannic, that bag containing it, that liquid there
00:07:48and we managed to avoid the worst inside the venue.
00:07:53While I was busy putting out the fire and carrying the bag out like this, I know that at the entrance
00:07:59there was a fight with a boy who later turned out to be Abel, a fight
00:08:06quite violent, considering that a knife was later found and apparently
00:08:13It's not known whether it was his, but the knife was still on the ground.
00:08:20Barberi, even in this case in the failed massacre of Castiglion dell'Estiviere there are
00:08:26clues that suggest the existence of a third accomplice.
00:08:30Ready?
00:08:31Good evening, listen, I am directly concerned about the Melamara massacre.
00:08:35I'm that boy from Bergamo who practically went out in flames.
00:08:39Ah, good evening.
00:08:41I mean, I saw the sequel, now sometimes I filmed it, but honestly, everything I saw was nothing
00:08:46corresponds to the letter. The boys basically took them out in the middle of the fray.
00:08:50when I was practically burned and they were practically taken by girls
00:08:55with my friends from Bergamo.
00:08:56Ah, I mean, excuse me, you're saying it wasn't the Carabinieri who arrested the two arsonists, but?
00:09:03But they were taken by some guys who basically beat them up first, then
00:09:09Finally the police arrived and took them out of their hands and took them
00:09:12go away.
00:09:13Oh, there was almost, sorry to interrupt, but to be precise, there was almost an attempt
00:09:19of lynching, she says.
00:09:20Yes, in fact they were also lynched by several of my friends who were with me at the disco
00:09:24that Sunday and it is absolutely not true that they took them immediately, they came later,
00:09:28by the way, I was in the middle of the street, in the charred area, I saw the police arrive,
00:09:33load them up and take them away, but they weren't caught in the disco.
00:09:36That's right, that's what we've seen done with some adjustments that we say.
00:09:43always, these are constructions filmed with actors, so there may be some
00:09:47discrepancy with reality, I hope you will agree with us that in substance.
00:09:52How did she cope afterwards?
00:09:54I spent 54 days in Turin, on the main street of Turin, thanks to the father of one of them,
00:10:02the head physician Furlan, who followed me in the operation and I managed to at least get out of it, however
00:10:08I still have two legs now, I'm 23 years old, I have two legs literally ruined by these two,
00:10:13that is, what is most shocking is that I have never once been taken into consideration,
00:10:18but nothing, also because they took the mara from me, otherwise they still wouldn't know today
00:10:23who they were, that is, it was the last one attempted and there they took them, and there thank God of the
00:10:28My friends who were with me practically took them, otherwise they still didn't know
00:10:32who they were.
00:10:33Thank you, thank you very much for this testimony.
00:10:38Barberi, we were saying that even in the case of Melamara, about which we had this clarification,
00:10:43there are elements that make it seem possible, indeed almost certain, that an accomplice was present.
00:10:50The Melamara case is exactly the one I mentioned before, saying that the accusation
00:10:55He was aiming for a third party. Why? We saw it in the video, these two leaving the motorcycle.
00:11:04in one country and reach another one 7 to 8 kilometers away, with the bags in
00:11:09hand.
00:11:09It's truly something that cannot be explained.
00:11:13That is, they would have walked that long distance, with a weight in their hands?
00:11:17With a weight in hand and why? But then the problem is this, at the moment in which they had to
00:11:24escape, how would they have reached the country? These other 7 would have been done
00:11:30kilometers, 8 kilometers on foot, while everyone was looking for whoever set fire to the nightclub?
00:11:37With the reactions we just heard.
00:11:40Then there is no evidence that the entrance tickets were found in the pockets of the two
00:11:46to Melamara. What does this mean? Well, it makes one think that perhaps a third party has entered.
00:11:52with a ticket, buying a ticket and then opened...
00:11:55This third one, excuse me if I interrupt you, which could have the appearance of the identikit that was
00:12:01shown a second ago by the director. Yes? Did he say?
00:12:04And so a third party could have entered and facilitated their entry through
00:12:08a service entrance.
00:12:10Also because in those days...
00:12:10Then there is another thing, that these bags ensure all the staff at the cash register
00:12:17It's a shame that no one would have been able to get in with these bags in their hands...
00:12:21Voluminous.
00:12:22Voluminous.
00:12:23Excuse me a moment. Hello?
00:12:25Ready?
00:12:27Ready?
00:12:28Yes.
00:12:29Ready?
00:12:30Yes.
00:12:31Yes.
00:12:32It's online.
00:12:33Coast?
00:12:35Ready?
00:12:36It's online.
00:12:37I'm online, okay.
00:12:38Ball to coast.
00:12:40The short face.
00:12:41The short face.
00:12:42Ready?
00:12:43The short face.
00:12:45How does she face it?
00:12:46I do not understand.
00:12:47Sorry, you're online.
00:12:48Yes.
00:12:48Go ahead and say it.
00:12:50Ball to coast.
00:12:51The father of one of the dead.
00:12:52Yes.
00:12:53Huh?
00:12:54Yes, I understand sir, I understand.
00:12:56Ball the father of a...
00:12:57Ready?
00:13:00Ready?
00:13:01Ball with me.
00:13:02Yes, I understand.
00:13:04He is the father of a...
00:13:06Excuse me, sir.
00:13:08For...
00:13:08Sorry, the connection isn't perfect.
00:13:10You are the father of one of the victims, if I understand correctly.
00:13:13Yes.
00:13:15Thanks for stopping by.
00:13:17What did he mean?
00:13:18I just wanted to say one thing.
00:13:21That they found a pair of glasses under my son's back.
00:13:26At some point, with the investigation that they did and everything, with what they found a couple
00:13:35glasses in Germany, at this Abel's house, were the same.
00:13:41I can't figure out how...
00:13:44I can't figure out how...
00:13:45In the end...
00:13:46In the end...
00:13:47All the inquiries they have made have resulted in sufficient evidence.
00:13:54You must excuse me because I'm nervous.
00:13:56No, for goodness sake, I understand you perfectly, in fact I frankly wish that you, perhaps the only one, would not watch this program.
00:14:05Unfortunately I'm too nervous, maybe I can't make myself understood.
00:14:09Anyway, they found a pair of glasses and I could never figure anything out.
00:14:14I was in court almost every time in Verona, I left from Venice, I went to Verona to see.
00:14:22Well, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.
00:14:26I know who killed here, I don't know, nobody, nobody.
00:14:30I'm nervous, look, I can't...
00:14:32I understand her.
00:14:33The optician, you see, the optician, told me that the glasses were his, he had made them in Verona, right here.
00:14:41under the Verona court.
00:14:43He made them, he said I can't say 100% that they are mine, because it's not a painting
00:14:48which can be signed, but this is my work, I made it.
00:14:51At some point the glasses are not Abel's.
00:14:54The glasses, excuse me?
00:14:56The glasses are not Abel's.
00:14:58Yes.
00:14:58Since this individual, every time he took someone away, lost his glasses on the floor, he had lenses made.
00:15:06in contact with his brother of the one who made the glasses first.
00:15:13With all that, I still haven't been able to understand this fact about these glasses.
00:15:21The only one, Barberi is here who can give an explanation about it, do we want to hear it, do you want to hear it?
00:15:29Yes, Barberi.
00:15:30But I believe that in essence Mr. Costa wants to talk to us, he has talked to us about his bitterness, because the two defendants
00:15:38They were acquitted, albeit due to insufficient evidence, of the murder.
00:15:45Coast.
00:15:46Costa, that is, the murder of this gentleman's son.
00:15:49He adds the detail of the glasses.
00:15:52When Costa's body was found, a pair of glasses were found nearby.
00:15:58The judges, investigating, speak of a very high probability, some say 99%, that these glasses were
00:16:10lost on the spot by one of the two defendants, who in those very days, as Mr. Costa recalled,
00:16:18he had contact lenses made.
00:16:21It must be said that these two defendants, which in my opinion is a necessary addition at this point, protest their innocence,
00:16:27It must also be said, they refused to submit to any kind of investigation.
00:16:35Even having your eyesight measured to see if those glasses are good.
00:16:39If those glasses could have been theirs.
00:16:41Why did they refuse?
00:16:43Excuse me?
00:16:44Why did they refuse?
00:16:47The accused has the right to refuse this, but in fact you know that they have
00:16:53refused this, they also refused to have hair cut that could be compared with hair fragments found on the
00:17:05site of other crimes.
00:17:06We are very good, they are bringing things out, but now here, on the things they do now, they never show up
00:17:20these people here.
00:17:22I know, but she knows that...
00:17:23Why don't they show up?
00:17:24Maybe they're scared.
00:17:26The defendant has the right...
00:17:27Why don't they come to accuse themselves, why don't they come to say things like when.
00:17:31Sorry, sorry, Mr. Costa, I understand your disappointment, as well as your bitterness, towards a
00:17:42judicial system that did not give her justice.
00:17:50It's not for that, it's not for that, it's not for that. Because, look, Mr. Abel is very mathematical,
00:17:56he's smart, he's a smart boy.
00:17:58So, for him, to commit a murder, for him it is evidence against the police.
00:18:03He wants to prove that he's smart, he's super smart.
00:18:06Here, and she...
00:18:07A psychologist checks him well, he, the teacher, the professor, he also told me that when he gave an assignment
00:18:15to do, he did it in half an hour, instead of an hour, I did it in half an hour, but he
00:18:20he did two tasks to show how good he was.
00:18:24So too much intelligence made him this, a murderer.
00:18:29Thank you, Mr. Costa, thank you for this touching testimony.
00:18:33I must say, in this regard, Mr. Costa, in his last sentence, introduced the topic we were about to discuss.
00:18:40to hint.
00:18:41What kind of people are the two defendants, I remember, defendants Abel and Furlan?
00:18:47Abel, you heard him, he's a young man, a young man of considerable intelligence, gifted in mathematics, he's a mind
00:18:56analytical, a captivating personality is also described in psychological terms.
00:19:02It must also be said, on the other side of the coin, that a man who as a boy had very strong depressive syndromes, with
00:19:13suicide attempts and which also reveals in the spontaneous design, as they say, a highly developed aggressive tendency.
00:19:24Furlan, the relationship between the two is very complex, this is, so to speak, a schematization of it, instead it seems the
00:19:31complement of a personality of this type, that is, the personality that receives, if Abel's is the personality that
00:19:38from.
00:19:40Abel, who in turn presents himself in different forms depending on the circumstances in which he is called
00:19:47to intervene.
00:19:48What we offer you is a very interesting little document, a fragment of an interview which, when it was already in
00:19:57Abel prison, Enzo Biaggi made him.
00:20:01And this is what came out of it.
00:20:07That is, life itself, I think it is neither a positive nor a negative fact, I think it depends on
00:20:16how one experiences it, if one is happy, content and lives well, it is a positive fact.
00:20:23If someone is sick, they suffer, they are a burden, in short.
00:20:26Did you attempt suicide in prison because you were desperate?
00:20:30Yes, anyway it's a bit of a... I mean, I'd have to explain my whole story for her to understand this fact.
00:20:43He was arrested together with his friend Marco Furlan, while trying to set fire to a nightclub inside which there was
00:20:52It was 400 days. Is that right? Were you trying to make a joke?
00:20:56Yes, but I would like to explain this fact that the question is not quite precise because it was not quite the
00:21:09our intention to set fire to the nightclub and cause harm to people.
00:21:16Well, at least I don't think that was our intention.
00:21:24Then I ended up in jail.
00:21:27Then I heard on television that the German police were sure that I was the leader of this group, of
00:21:42this group called Wolves.
00:21:45Well, the motives weren't entirely clear. There was talk of a book, of a shoe launch, of...
00:21:56of... of... so we were talking about... of a bag... no.
00:22:06Yes, yes, there was something...
00:22:09No, no. So, there were these searches in my house and the police claimed to have found...
00:22:21of the elements in my charge.
00:22:24that is, they proved that I was the leader of this group and I underwent these searches... I underwent them
00:22:34very surprised and also...
00:22:37Are you the leader of this group in America?
00:22:39No, no, no.
00:22:42This is the identikit that was made at the time of one... I'm showing it to you because someone might find some in it
00:22:52elements of interest in this drawing relative to the images we have seen.
00:22:58So, sitting next to me now is a gentleman with a tumultuous past named Giulio Salierno.
00:23:06This gentleman was a thug when he was young, or rather a fascist thug, as the title of the book says...
00:23:15One of the books.
00:23:16The title of one of the books he later wrote about this tumultuous and violent youthful experience.
00:23:22Salierno, you have firsthand experience, as well as theoretical knowledge, of violence. Why is political violence practiced?
00:23:32In my opinion, the issue is very simple. Man... the entire history of man is filled with violence.
00:23:39The problem is not that man is violent or that he exercises violence on nature or against
00:23:46his lords.
00:23:46The problem is when violence becomes ideology. That is, what allows us to sit here together with this...
00:23:53table is that somehow we have common rules of coexistence, values in which we believe.
00:23:59We do not attack each other for this reason, that is, a page of civility, otherwise we would probably attack each other.
00:24:04When aggression, when violence, which is a factor that in small doses can be positive because it has considered
00:24:11man's desire to dominate nature, to defeat the violence of nature, becomes an ideology, that is, it becomes a material force that
00:24:18It dominates man from within and drags him along, then it becomes a regressive and pernicious element.
00:24:24It is precisely this century, it is the century in which we have had stronger ideologies of violence than in the past.
00:24:30historical, it is the century of Nazism, of Stalinism, that is, the century in which violence was theorized
00:24:38which had never occurred before in the past.
00:24:41We will then discuss this with Professor Rusconi, as well as with you, who teaches political science and the history of political doctrines.
00:24:51Raffaele Simone, Professor Raffaele Simone teaches linguistics at the University of Rome.
00:24:56His presence here is because we asked Professor Simone, who kindly accepted, for a linguistic analysis of the
00:25:05numerous, of the numerous bulletins, I don't know what to call them, statements of claim that those of the Ludwig group practically after each of their
00:25:13crime they sent.
00:25:15I would like to point out to Professor Simone that during the periods of the Tribunal, which they have already examined during the first instance proceedings,
00:25:23These press releases revealed that at least three different minds, so to speak, can be recognised in the drafting, at least three different levels of
00:25:33culture in compiling these.
00:25:35What is your comment?
00:25:36I have the impression that the levels of culture here are quite homogeneous, I don't see three hands.
00:25:43These are very thin, very short, extremely schematic documents with very few statements of principle.
00:25:52I would say that these are naive, candid texts, with some theorems brutally stated,
00:25:59for example the end is our life and the death of those who betray the true God, or the
00:26:06Our faith is Nazism, our justice is death, there is no further elaboration.
00:26:12What strikes me in these texts, apart from their candor of enunciation, their lack of elaboration,
00:26:21it's what I would call the graphomania of theorizing crime.
00:26:27When criminals theorize, whether political or non-political, they very often manifest a graphomaniac tendency.
00:26:34That is, she says, political criminals like to write.
00:26:39They write willingly, the most typical and most conspicuous example being that of the Red Brigades,
00:26:43which by now have filled volumes and files with their documents, I believe,
00:26:49with an academic aspiration in that case, which very often then materialized in the form of relationships
00:26:56between this group and academic research in the strict sense.
00:27:00These young people of Ludwig are equally graphomaniacs, but with a further characterization.
00:27:08Meanwhile, these flyers are all demands.
00:27:12The claim is in a certain sense the effort to prevent the product we have worked on from being
00:27:17be taken away from us.
00:27:19A friend pointed out to me in the afternoon that the so-called Monster of Florence
00:27:23he wrote for the first time when a certain crime that had been committed in Florence
00:27:28it was about to be attributed to someone else.
00:27:30Exactly, exactly.
00:27:31That is, he claimed this commisive product.
00:27:33We discussed this a few months ago in this same program.
00:27:36Therefore the graphomaniac element is a claiming and not an elaborating element.
00:27:41I must note that this tendency to claim
00:27:44It seems to be a characteristic of the theorizing crime he writes about.
00:27:48Excuse me, Professor Simone, I'd like to point out something to you.
00:27:50So much so that what she says is that when there was the peak of aggression by the Red Brigades
00:27:55a Canadian thinker, Marshall McLuhan, theorized, he is right,
00:28:01that if the bulletins of claim of responsibility and the terrorist acts themselves
00:28:06all advertising had been removed from newspapers and television
00:28:09that itself would have been enough to curb terrorist activity.
00:28:13Of course, there was also, I think it was Umberto Eco in a nice article
00:28:15who argued that certain writings were meant to automatically become objects of study
00:28:22and Salierno himself reminded me a little while ago that a significant part of the terrorists
00:28:27they sent a copy of their documents to the foundation archives
00:28:30who deal with political thought.
00:28:32Well, of course.
00:28:33That is, they have a vocation for self-archiving, let's say.
00:28:36There is no doubt about the story.
00:28:39Here, I wanted to mention as a curiosity, also to give an example of this historical thread
00:28:44which characterizes this graphomaniac tendency, which Jack London, who was a writer
00:28:50very sensitive to the problem of political crime that was beginning to emerge
00:28:55at the end of the last century, at the beginning of this one, he dedicated two stories to the problem
00:29:00of terrorism and of the terrorist in particular.
00:29:04And in both of these stories the terrorist is a graphomaniac.
00:29:08In one he is markedly a graphomaniac, this story is called The Heirs of Midas.
00:29:11And in this story there is a character who is led to death by a group of
00:29:16extortionist terrorists, who however theorize their actions through a series of hammering
00:29:23of long letters, exhausting letters.
00:29:25In another story, called The Enemy of the Human Race, in Italian, the protagonist
00:29:31he is a university professor who has lost his tenure.
00:29:34Quite an interesting situation which shows once again the connection between theorizing,
00:29:39graphomania and, in some respects, political crime.
00:29:44Then there are, in these texts, which I repeat, are in themselves quite frail,
00:29:48of Ludwig's texts, I mean, an insistence on the symbolism of the runes, which has already been discussed here.
00:29:55However, I would like to underline that this symbolism seems extremely primordial and elementary to me.
00:30:01That is, they are not runes, but imitations of runes similar to those that could be
00:30:06find in a cartoon or a children's magazine.
00:30:11That is, the cultural sources of this writing seem extremely naive to me.
00:30:15Thank you, Professor Simone.
00:30:16I would like to draw attention to the fact that, although two defendants exist and even
00:30:20we are facing the second degree trial, threatening messages attributable to Ludwig
00:30:29they keep coming.
00:30:31Nin Guarienti, the journalist Nin Guarienti, good evening.
00:30:37You've received some, please come in, Guarienti.
00:30:40And tell us what you received and what the threat contained in the messages you received consists of.
00:30:49I first received a postcard, a postcard that at first left me with nothing.
00:30:56When did this happen?
00:30:58About a month, a month and a half ago.
00:31:00A postcard with greetings from Legnano.
00:31:03Greetings from?
00:31:04Legnano.
00:31:04Legnano.
00:31:05Legnano.
00:31:05Behind it was the word Shalom, as a greeting from Legnano.
00:31:11Shalom.
00:31:12Which is the greeting that means peace in Hebrew.
00:31:15Well, at first I have many Jewish friends in Verona too, I was down in Israel once for
00:31:21a month,
00:31:22so I attributed it to a greeting from a friend of mine.
00:31:25And I went there, but you were, why did you send me a postcard with Legnano, greetings from
00:31:32Legnano and Shalom.
00:31:33And he told me no, I didn't send you anything at all.
00:31:36Then, looking carefully at the postcard, there was Mai 14, that is, May 14th.
00:31:46And three dates next to it.
00:31:48Israel 1948, Shema 1983 and Shalom 1988.
00:31:55Then with Solchicechi, with Solchicechi, there was the writing Eros Milano, that is, it remembered the famous massacre in Milan at the cinema
00:32:13Eros.
00:32:14I handed this postcard over to the Police Headquarters, after making a photocopy, just out of curiosity.
00:32:23The police deduced that he could be a mythomaniac, who could also be the third man.
00:32:31That is, he has continually supported a series of hypotheses.
00:32:35The hypotheses grew when another envelope arrived, exactly a week ago.
00:32:40This envelope contained a brochure, an advertising brochure for a tap factory,
00:32:50with RAF written on it, which could recall the rota, the rota and the fraction, in Solchicechi, always a date, February 26,
00:32:58which has been remembered here over and over again,
00:33:011946, N.U. Columlaut, i.e. Nuremberg, a trial.
00:33:06The date of the Nuremberg trial verdict.
00:33:09A very complicated symbolism.
00:33:12With this, a series of photocopies, of articles, which talk about crimes that have remained unpunished.
00:33:21Of crimes that have not yet been discovered.
00:33:23And next to it, something mysterious at first, a little chain with seven pendants, seven balls,
00:33:32which at first left me amazed, it had no point of reference.
00:33:36However, in the photocopies, in the photocopies, reference is made...
00:33:42It's a very normal hardware store chain.
00:33:46From a hardware store, exactly.
00:33:48Reading the photocopies of the articles reporting crimes that have not gone unpunished, not yet discovered,
00:33:56we read about the crime of 28 April 1986 of little Cristian, killed on Mount Maddalena, in the Brescia area.
00:34:03He was killed and with...
00:34:05Yes, it's a case we've...
00:34:07With a wire next to it.
00:34:09It's a case we've been dealing with...
00:34:10This could have been a reference.
00:34:11Look, why would they have it in for her?
00:34:13Be patient.
00:34:13But I don't think they have it in for me.
00:34:15I think simply by working as a journalist on Telenuovo television in Verona.
00:34:20We have been working on this case a lot.
00:34:22We followed the trial on our news programs.
00:34:26We talked about it in our weekly magazine.
00:34:28So they essentially want journalists to talk about this trial.
00:34:34Ah, that's the thing...
00:34:35Excuse me.
00:34:36Please.
00:34:36This must be the letter that was there...
00:34:49I don't know what value to give to the letter I received.
00:34:58I'll read it to you.
00:34:59It says...
00:35:01We will strike again all men who disrespect Ludwig's law.
00:35:05Our power has no limits.
00:35:07Honor to Wolfgang Abel and Marco Furlan.
00:35:11Gott me tuns.
00:35:14This is the letter.
00:35:17If I see the envelope here, it was sent from Rome on May 11th, that is, two days ago.
00:35:31Frankly, I'm a little baffled.
00:35:35I don't think we need to worry too much.
00:35:39We have to be...
00:35:41After all, we have a graphologist here.
00:35:45We have a writing psychologist.
00:35:49I'll have it examined for you.
00:35:52It's 10.25am now.
00:35:55I think we have to give in.
00:35:57In the meantime, however, I can say two things.
00:35:59I can say that if this letter is reliable...
00:36:04Meanwhile, what Nin Guarienti was saying earlier is confirmed,
00:36:08that there is someone who keeps sending messages.
00:36:12And then I see in this final call,
00:36:15Honor to Wolfgang Abel and Marco Furlan,
00:36:19who are currently only two defendants,
00:36:22a possible message from the author of this sinister letter,
00:36:30which has all the Ludwigian elements,
00:36:34the Eagle, the swastika, the signature Gott me tuns.
00:36:39That is, either one wants to honor these two defendants,
00:36:43claiming its belonging to the group,
00:36:45or rather, they want to encourage him with this letter
00:36:48not to deny, as they would have done instead,
00:36:52declaring themselves innocent,
00:36:54not to deny their very belonging to the group.
00:36:57I cannot say more than this about this letter,
00:37:01which also fills me with a little annoyance.
00:37:05And we'll talk about it again after the news break.
00:37:09I now hand over to my colleague Carlo Brienza for the news.
00:37:13we will be back on air soon after,
00:37:16also with a comment on this extraordinary and sinister letter that has just reached us.
00:37:21Thanks see you soon.
00:37:22Thank you all.
00:37:58Thank you all.
00:38:42Thank you all.
00:39:13The graphic signs of violence chaotically linked to an ideology.
00:39:22We'll be back on air at 11-16 with the second part of Telefono Giallo.
00:39:27I would like to immediately introduce you to the guests who are gathered here around the table,
00:39:32starting from the left the journalist Nin Guarienti,
00:39:37the director of the films we saw in the first part, Fiore del Rienzo,
00:39:42fellow journalist from the Verona Arena Gianni Cantù and then again the lawyer Guarienti who represented the
00:39:54civil party in the first instance of the Ludwig trial,
00:39:57Professor Simone Linguist of the University of Rome, Professor Gian Enrico Rusconi,
00:40:02Political Sciences in Turin, Andrea Barberi, director of Berescia today, Dr. Rossetti, psychologist of writing and then on the side
00:40:14opposite Giulio Salierno,
00:40:18sociologist Sabino Acquaviva, sociologist from Padua, and finally Professor Garavaglia, psychiatrist and criminologist.
00:40:32At the end of the first part we received a message which was entrusted to Dr. Rossetti,
00:40:39who studied it in this half hour and got what out of it?
00:40:43The hands are different and we can see very notable differences in the eagle, in the structure of the spaces,
00:40:59precisely in the setting of the spaces, surely this last letter that arrived was not written with the usual method
00:41:09of the superposition on a squared sheet of paper and also the scanning of the spaces is very different.
00:41:19For example, let's note the margins: the right margin of the letters that arrived first is definitely wider.
00:41:26of that one instead of those that have arrived now, which even almost rest on the margin like writing.
00:41:33The last indication, the famous God is with us, is moved to the right compared to those that arrived.
00:41:43Here, it is put in place of a signature, in the very place that a signature would have, let's say, where in the messages that
00:41:49we know
00:41:50originals that happen to the God, to the Got Me Toos and to the center, to the center slightly shifted.
00:41:57Another thing, the various letters, the letters are really different even in terms of scanning, structure and position.
00:42:06Everyone will have, excuse me doctor, Barberi immediately, everyone will have read what is written in this message
00:42:14We will still hit all the men who disrespect Ludwig's law, but here it is known, one thing is respected
00:42:20the boss, Ludwig's boss who never respects the syllabic division of Italian words.
00:42:26In the first letters it was respected, now it is not.
00:42:29In fact here there is for example in the first line we will hit all the i's again, it ends with the g and then
00:42:35resumes the i on the next line, this matches.
00:42:39And this Nazism, exactly, also this inability to get to the bottom of Nazism.
00:42:45Our power has no limits, honor to Wolfgang Gable, Marco Furlan and Barberi, did you want to say something?
00:42:50Yes, if I may for a moment, I noticed a strange thing, because the gentleman who wrote, sir or sir
00:42:56whatever this message is
00:42:59He wanted to let us know that he knows the process quite well, I don't know why he was involved in any way
00:43:07or maybe just pay attention to newspaper hours.
00:43:10I'll explain it right away, in the message there is the sentence
00:43:13Men disrespectful of Ludwig's law
00:43:18In Ludwig's message, number 4, there is the sentence, number 6
00:43:23Men disrespectful of Ludwig's law
00:43:27It is the Aerosenter's claim
00:43:30One line further on it says
00:43:32Our power has no limits, we have already seen it
00:43:37In the message, this one, number 4, which is the one claiming responsibility for the priest killed in Trento
00:43:43I find it written, Ludwig's power has no limits
00:43:47That is, it's a bit of a reconstruction of things that make you change your mind?
00:43:51No, I'm of the opinion that at least compared to this one, number 2, it's not the same hand.
00:43:59I obviously haven't analyzed all the others due to time constraints, but I can see the number from other sites too...
00:44:05I want to make an appeal, as the sender of this message is probably
00:44:11listening to our program, as its authenticity is being questioned
00:44:16Please call 8262, this time the message is specifically for him
00:44:22Gianni Cantù
00:44:23Yes please
00:44:27I would like to refer to what my colleague Andrea Barberi says about literal references.
00:44:33to the old messages, to the historical ones
00:44:37To remind you that these messages are all reproduced, as they are
00:44:41in Caneva's book they are available to everyone, in all bookstores
00:44:45And so anyone could have copied
00:44:47Anyone, sure, yes
00:44:48Excuse me a moment, hello?
00:44:50Ready?
00:44:51Yes
00:44:51They are Rebonati from Piacenza
00:44:53Yes
00:44:54I am
00:44:54I wanted to tell you that this show also follows the same trend as the others.
00:45:00It is the thread of that broadcast that they try to damage with absurd mystifications
00:45:06The world of the right
00:45:07And that in this moment in which Le Penism has blown up all your mental schemes
00:45:14In which the far right is on course for a victory across Europe
00:45:19As all the data is giving
00:45:21You are behind these broadcasts that always fall at the right time
00:45:26See the report on the San Sampa ovens
00:45:30In the Piaggi broadcast
00:45:32Before the interview with Le Pen and Fini, secretary of the Social Movement
00:45:37See the way that dirty Bedouin from Ferrara
00:45:42Together with Piumino di Martelli
00:45:44He treated all those four intellectuals like trash.
00:45:47She can say whatever she wants, except insults because otherwise I'll cut her off.
00:45:50No, I, look, you can even cut me
00:45:54No, she can say whatever she wants, except insults.
00:46:00No, I don't give insults.
00:46:02The insults were given
00:46:03Conclude, conclude, conclude what you mean
00:46:06Yes, I'll tell you what I want to say
00:46:07But if she opens her mind for a moment
00:46:10He removes it from the RAI news
00:46:12Where he works he takes it away
00:46:14And he saw, heard, the Ferrara broadcast
00:46:19You saw the one from the other night
00:46:20The insults were given from the other side
00:46:23They have wasted themselves from the reperlent to the disgusting
00:46:26Well, anyway, we're talking about Ludwig tonight.
00:46:30I'm talking about Ludwig, I'm talking
00:46:33Unfortunately, an Italy that believes me
00:46:37Much more majoritarian than what you
00:46:39Intellectuals and journalists want us to believe
00:46:42He has no other voice
00:46:44If not that of overcoming the various filters
00:46:47In this way
00:46:48In this television that is divided into three parties
00:46:52Communist Party, Christian Democracy
00:46:55And Socialist Party
00:46:56And it is truly a shame for the national country
00:46:59And it really is
00:47:00And now she can cut me
00:47:03She can think
00:47:04Yes, in a little while
00:47:05I confess to you that in a little while
00:47:07I'll cut it
00:47:17Okay, thanks
00:47:19Giulio Salierno answers you
00:47:21That far right
00:47:22He has some experience
00:47:24Well, in my youth
00:47:26Even though I'm on his right now
00:47:28Well, let's say one thing right away.
00:47:30Which is usually not common
00:47:31What do you see in this phone call, Salierno?
00:47:34Excuse me
00:47:34This voice made me feel a little sorry
00:47:36Because this is a man who is clearly suffering
00:47:39There is no doubt
00:47:39I agree with you on this.
00:47:41He's drowned in glue
00:47:42I agree with her
00:47:43But I would like to say
00:47:44That respects the message
00:47:46Which was received here before
00:47:47In general
00:47:48To this type of message
00:47:49Something that is not common on television
00:47:52First
00:47:52That are culturally ignoble
00:47:54Second
00:47:55That only scare
00:47:56And it scares him
00:47:56That is to say, brutally
00:47:58That Nazism is dead
00:47:59And that no longer scares anyone
00:48:00Other forms of fascism and nazism
00:48:02They are possible
00:48:02But not that one
00:48:03Which has been buried by history
00:48:04And that no one can lift from the mud
00:48:06Where it was thrown
00:48:07First
00:48:08Rusconi
00:48:09But suddenly we entered
00:48:11At the heart of the problem
00:48:13At first there was doubt
00:48:15If these people
00:48:17Or this group
00:48:19Could it be somehow
00:48:20Qualified with a term
00:48:21Let's call it historical politics
00:48:23In five minutes
00:48:24We said yes
00:48:25I still have my doubts
00:48:26Of course the reader
00:48:28Rather the listener
00:48:29Rather the intervener
00:48:30He made this leap
00:48:32And it is very significant.
00:48:33But personally
00:48:34I'm always left with my doubts
00:48:36Why historical racism
00:48:39Historical racism
00:48:40It's something else
00:48:41And if we want
00:48:42Interpret
00:48:43This signal
00:48:45Like that
00:48:46What we saw
00:48:47First in the movie
00:48:48These sudden
00:48:49Returns
00:48:50Of writings
00:48:51Oh scenes
00:48:53In a political sense
00:48:54And in a human sense
00:48:56So we need to have a conversation.
00:48:57We do not accept
00:48:59This provocation
00:49:00The first thing to do
00:49:01And let's look carefully
00:49:02What's happening
00:49:04So what?
00:49:05How to say
00:49:05It's perhaps the thing
00:49:07What irritates the most
00:49:08The people
00:49:09Which they would like immediately
00:49:10Politicize
00:49:11The thing
00:49:11We are witnessing
00:49:13Effectively
00:49:14On a return
00:49:15At least
00:49:16Drawings
00:49:17Racists
00:49:18Traditional
00:49:21We are witnessing
00:49:22On a return
00:49:23Of feelings
00:49:25Xenophobes
00:49:26Ours
00:49:27Which are something else
00:49:29We are witnessing
00:49:30In Europe
00:49:30Of the processes
00:49:32On the way back
00:49:33Sentimental
00:49:34To concepts
00:49:35Of homeland
00:49:36From a small town
00:49:38Or to say
00:49:39In technical terms
00:49:40Of ethnocentrism
00:49:41Which is another thing
00:49:42At that time
00:49:43We see
00:49:44They are the various
00:49:45The various faces
00:49:47On racism
00:49:48Ready
00:49:48Good evening
00:49:50Good evening madam
00:49:51I am a girl
00:49:52From Padua
00:49:53And I met
00:49:54In fact I still know
00:49:56The sister
00:49:57By Marco
00:49:58Porla
00:49:58Why I was
00:50:00His companion
00:50:01University
00:50:02And then
00:50:03I worked on it
00:50:04Together
00:50:04I had
00:50:05Occasion
00:50:06To know
00:50:07Marco too
00:50:07Porla
00:50:08And the impression
00:50:10What have I had?
00:50:10I
00:50:11That's it
00:50:12Of a boy
00:50:13Of a
00:50:14Ideology
00:50:15Left
00:50:15Let's say
00:50:16Lay
00:50:16Left
00:50:17So I ask myself
00:50:19In this whole story
00:50:21We saw
00:50:22That
00:50:23It has been said
00:50:25That
00:50:26I'm getting dark
00:50:27I'm a little
00:50:27Excited
00:50:28Say
00:50:29Say it calmly
00:50:30I was preparing
00:50:32Meanwhile
00:50:33Alerting
00:50:34Who can answer?
00:50:35Then
00:50:35On this his
00:50:36Observation
00:50:36So specific
00:50:37Go ahead and say it
00:50:38Yes
00:50:39I wanted to say
00:50:40Then I saw
00:50:43That
00:50:44Luzwig
00:50:45He has always had
00:50:46A characterization
00:50:47Of Nazism
00:50:48An ideology
00:50:49As
00:50:49You only talk
00:50:50A little stronger
00:50:51A characterization
00:50:53A characterization
00:51:21I have exactly
00:51:21As I was saying before
00:51:22A boy
00:51:23Of an ideology
00:51:24Rather
00:51:25Lay
00:51:25Left
00:51:26It feels strange to me
00:51:26Feel it
00:51:27Defendant
00:51:28For
00:51:29Questions
00:51:30Which instead
00:51:32I am completely
00:51:33From
00:51:35By Marco
00:51:37Various
00:51:38At that time
00:51:39I wanted
00:51:40To address
00:51:41I saw
00:51:41That over there
00:51:42There was
00:51:43Professor
00:51:44Here alive
00:51:45A question
00:51:46It is possible
00:51:47That a person
00:51:48That yes
00:51:49Show
00:51:50Somehow
00:51:51In life
00:51:52Everyday
00:51:53With
00:51:53A certain
00:51:54Ideology
00:51:55With
00:51:56A certain
00:51:56Way
00:51:56Of behavior
00:51:58Then
00:51:59May
00:51:59To be carried
00:52:01To a behavior
00:52:02What was it?
00:52:02Defined
00:52:03Paranoid
00:52:03With a look
00:52:05Completely
00:52:06Opposite
00:52:08Thank you
00:52:09I believe
00:52:10That the answer
00:52:10I have to give it to him
00:52:11Living water
00:52:12But also
00:52:12Garavaglia
00:52:13Living water
00:52:14But
00:52:15If it's a person
00:52:16Influenceable
00:52:17They can have
00:52:18The swings
00:52:19Politicians
00:52:19Strong
00:52:20Who thinks
00:52:21To one's own
00:52:22Adolescence
00:52:22He knows he had
00:52:23At least I do.
00:52:24You
00:52:25No
00:52:25We had it
00:52:26Everyone
00:52:27Some moments
00:52:28In which we had
00:52:28Of the sudden
00:52:29Skids
00:52:30Precisely because
00:52:30The personality
00:52:31It wasn't completely
00:52:32Formed
00:52:33But I would like
00:52:34One moment
00:52:34Back to topic
00:52:35What Salerno faced
00:52:37But in my opinion
00:52:37With too much escape
00:52:38Meaning what
00:52:39Yes it's true
00:52:40Let's change
00:52:41But anyway
00:52:41I agree
00:52:42With
00:52:42Yes yes
00:52:43It's not that I don't agree
00:52:45I'm just saying
00:52:45What a first
00:52:46The right
00:52:47It is deeply
00:52:48Evolved
00:52:49And a new right was born
00:52:50We know
00:52:51Which is a culture
00:52:52Completely different
00:52:53Second
00:52:54The problem of Nazism
00:52:55He is buried
00:52:56But he is buried
00:52:56Why the company
00:52:57He walked
00:52:59Quietly
00:53:00And so
00:53:00When we talk
00:53:01Of these problems
00:53:02In my opinion
00:53:02We don't try
00:53:03We don't ask ourselves
00:53:04A problem
00:53:05Directly political
00:53:06It's not a political problem
00:53:07There are some survivals
00:53:09In a way
00:53:10Ancient
00:53:11To do politics
00:53:13And the same
00:53:13That one said
00:53:14I call myself
00:53:14At the Lombard
00:53:15It's impressive
00:53:16It's impressive
00:53:16That these survivals
00:53:17There are
00:53:17In some boys
00:53:18What they had
00:53:19Twenty years
00:53:19Yes but there are
00:53:20These thin ones
00:53:21Cultural threads
00:53:23These readings
00:53:23That at twenty years old
00:53:24There are
00:53:25That I'm a little
00:53:25As
00:53:26Chaotic
00:53:27There are some authors
00:53:28Which are still read
00:53:30And that one can interpret
00:53:31In an ancient key
00:53:32Or in a modern key
00:53:34That is, I would say
00:53:35That yes
00:53:36Which is true
00:53:36For goodness sake
00:53:37But now
00:53:37Let's not dramatize
00:53:39Sorry though
00:53:40There is a clear leap
00:53:42Of culture
00:53:43In the 30s and 40s
00:53:44There is a culture
00:53:46That he tolerated
00:53:47These things
00:53:47Today we are at the level
00:53:48Of subculture
00:53:49You will admit
00:53:50Also because
00:53:52The community
00:53:54It is completely
00:53:54No but I was addressing
00:53:55To the one who intervened
00:53:56First on the right
00:53:57That is, this is not
00:53:58An attack
00:53:59To the right today
00:54:00What has
00:54:01Different characteristics
00:54:02We can calmly
00:54:04Refuse it
00:54:04On the political level
00:54:05But this has nothing to do with it
00:54:07In short
00:54:07Even in the 30s
00:54:09There were cultural survivals
00:54:11From the end of the nineteenth century
00:54:12There was for example
00:54:13Anarchism
00:54:14From the late nineteenth century
00:54:15That bomber
00:54:16No?
00:54:17They were the survivals
00:54:18In fact it has been seen
00:54:20That kind of anarchism then
00:54:21It's no longer there
00:54:21So
00:54:23And then there are people
00:54:24With personalities
00:54:26Disturbed
00:54:27That they collect
00:54:28A
00:54:28A cultural tradition
00:54:31Dead
00:54:31And this is frequent.
00:54:33Garavaggio
00:54:34Here you are
00:54:34I would say that it has me
00:54:36It has a lot for me
00:54:37He anticipated me
00:54:38He almost stole from me
00:54:39The concept
00:54:39When before
00:54:40In a very synthetic way
00:54:42Said
00:54:43Paranoid
00:54:44The behavior
00:54:45It's a word
00:54:45Which is a label
00:54:46So in itself
00:54:47It means very little
00:54:48For those who are not
00:54:49Insider
00:54:50And for those with me
00:54:50Reject all labels
00:54:52But
00:54:54Certainly
00:54:54If we want to do
00:54:56If we want to make comparisons
00:54:56Coarse
00:54:57There has always been
00:54:59In the old mental hospitals
00:55:00What he said
00:55:00Of being Napoleon
00:55:01For example
00:55:02This does not mean
00:55:02That it was inserted
00:55:03In Napoleonic ideology
00:55:04He was borrowing
00:55:06Certain figures
00:55:07I would say that
00:55:08These people
00:55:09Whoever they are
00:55:10I don't know if they are
00:55:11Furlan and Abel
00:55:12Which I read about
00:55:13The expertise
00:55:15Deposited
00:55:15In the first instance
00:55:17They exclude
00:55:18A process
00:55:19Psychotic
00:55:20Real and proper
00:55:21There are some notes
00:55:22Of personality
00:55:23But
00:55:24Undoubtedly
00:55:25These last two guys
00:55:26When they did
00:55:28These exploded
00:55:29So
00:55:31I think that
00:55:32To bother
00:55:33The culture
00:55:34Politics
00:55:35In this case
00:55:36It's like bothering
00:55:37Political culture
00:55:37For the elderly sick of doctors
00:55:39Who said they were Napoleons
00:55:40Meaning what
00:55:41They are disconnected
00:55:43Seriously
00:55:44From a fact
00:55:44So I answer too
00:55:46To the question
00:55:47What was he saying?
00:55:47When there is
00:55:48A political crime
00:55:49There is always
00:55:49On paranoidity
00:55:50And it can't be said
00:55:51In short
00:55:52In paranoia
00:55:53Or anyway
00:55:54Delirious situation
00:55:56It's always something
00:55:56Which is outside
00:55:57Of time
00:55:58And outside
00:55:58It is not inserted
00:55:59In a context
00:56:00These are
00:56:01As he said
00:56:03My neighbor
00:56:04They are residues
00:56:06That are taken
00:56:07On loan
00:56:08But they did not live
00:56:09I'm not in
00:56:10Seriously
00:56:11It seems earthly to me
00:56:11Which is a bit
00:56:12The same thing
00:56:12What was he saying before?
00:56:13Rusconi
00:56:14What are they?
00:56:15From the
00:56:16Appic
00:56:16I am
00:56:16Certainly
00:56:18But
00:56:19We have to
00:56:19Be careful
00:56:20Even to new things
00:56:21And to the new facts
00:56:22Why xenophobia?
00:56:24Today he expresses himself
00:56:24With different motivations
00:56:26That has nothing to do with the last
00:56:28But it's another thing
00:56:29We are talking
00:56:30Of these gentlemen
00:56:31Ready
00:56:32Ready
00:56:33Yes
00:56:34Good evening
00:56:35Listen, I wanted to
00:56:36Ask a question
00:56:39To the lady
00:56:40What's up?
00:56:40His left
00:56:42Dr. Rossetti
00:56:44Psychologist
00:56:45Of writing
00:56:45On his right
00:56:45I'm wrong
00:56:46So it's me
00:56:47Yes
00:56:48Here you are
00:56:50So he's a gentleman
00:56:51She is not a lady
00:56:51Yes yes yes
00:56:52Yes it is wrong
00:56:53Then the mudave
00:56:54I heard that he has
00:56:56A personality
00:56:57Quite ambiguous
00:56:59Meaning what
00:56:59I don't remember well
00:57:01But
00:57:02If it was a broadcast
00:57:04Or through a newspaper
00:57:05Yes
00:57:06Let the question go
00:57:07Eh
00:57:08AND
00:57:09It is not clear whether
00:57:13I don't know how to explain myself
00:57:15You try
00:57:17You try
00:57:17Be calm
00:57:18Meaning what
00:57:19If it's a little
00:57:20Affeminated
00:57:22And this
00:57:24How do you say
00:57:25A bit of a contrast
00:57:26With
00:57:26With what he wants to do
00:57:28That is, he
00:57:29It should have
00:57:31Setting Eros on Fire
00:57:33Where
00:57:34Where everyone is
00:57:36That is then
00:57:39It's not clear enough
00:57:40It's really not clear.
00:57:42The question
00:57:42Look
00:57:43He understood it
00:57:44The professor
00:57:45Acquaviva
00:57:46It was a bit
00:57:47Sown
00:57:47Tell him to speak loudly into the microphone
00:57:49I think I understood
00:57:50What he says
00:57:50That being a personality
00:57:52A little effeminate
00:57:53Why instead?
00:57:54He was going to fight
00:57:55Homosexuality
00:57:56Exact
00:57:56Exact
00:57:57This is what he means
00:57:58Yes
00:57:58It can be answered
00:58:00To this question
00:58:01But I don't know on which ones
00:58:03What bases
00:58:04Diagnostic data
00:58:05We have on females
00:58:06At the head of Abel
00:58:07If I may
00:58:08As
00:58:08Roughly speaking
00:58:09Intervene
00:58:09It seems to me
00:58:10What can one say?
00:58:11Excuse me
00:58:11I wanted to ask
00:58:12Meanwhile if it's true
00:58:15Which is a bit
00:58:16Exterminated
00:58:17Precisely
00:58:18Nobody
00:58:19Barberi
00:58:20Barberi
00:58:21Everyone wants to answer
00:58:22No no on the fact
00:58:24I wanted to answer
00:58:25Why do we talk?
00:58:26In the appraisals
00:58:27Of this relationship
00:58:28And we must be clear
00:58:30Excluding any
00:58:31Type of relationship
00:58:32Homosexual
00:58:33Between the two
00:58:33On the contrary
00:58:34In one of the reports
00:58:36I seem to remember
00:58:36It is said
00:58:37They had the girl
00:58:39They have a girlfriend
00:58:41At that time
00:58:41This has been made clear
00:58:43This satisfies her
00:58:45In response
00:58:46Or is there something else?
00:58:47No there isn't
00:58:48Thank you very much
00:58:49Fiore De Rienzo
00:58:50The director of our videos
00:58:52He wanted to say one thing
00:58:53I didn't mean to hang up on you
00:58:54To what now
00:58:55Barberi said
00:58:57Precisely
00:58:58To the psychiatric assessment
00:58:59Which excludes
00:59:00A component
00:59:02About homosexuality
00:59:03Be incapacitated
00:59:04That in Furlani
00:59:04But what?
00:59:06At the same time
00:59:09Speaks
00:59:09As a couple
00:59:10Closed
00:59:11What is it then?
00:59:12The reason
00:59:13So
00:59:13The investigators
00:59:16At least part of it
00:59:16About the investigators
00:59:17Those who then
00:59:18They judged
00:59:19They excluded
00:59:20The possibility
00:59:21Of the presence
00:59:22Of a third man
00:59:23Precisely based on
00:59:24Almost exclusively
00:59:25On this psychiatric assessment
00:59:27Now
00:59:28As they continue
00:59:30To arrive
00:59:31I'll come back for a moment
00:59:32To the theme
00:59:33Of the transmission
00:59:34Then Gianni
00:59:35I would like myself
00:59:37To address
00:59:37To this
00:59:39Extender
00:59:40From the
00:59:41Page
00:59:42Arrived
00:59:43TO
00:59:44Ninguarienti
00:59:45This
00:59:46Self-styled
00:59:48Member of Ludwig
00:59:50Given that
00:59:51Only
00:59:52One who
00:59:53He claims
00:59:54Well
00:59:54One who has
00:59:55Anyway
00:59:56The claim
00:59:58To know
00:59:59Very good
00:59:59The events
01:00:00By Ludwig
01:00:01I would like
01:00:02Ask him
01:00:02Why
01:00:04Associate
01:00:06To the crimes
01:00:07By Ludwig
01:00:08The case
01:00:09By Christian
01:00:10Lorandi
01:00:11Why
01:00:13This
01:00:15Form of
01:00:15Claim
01:00:16Or of attribution
01:00:17Of paternity
01:00:18It has arrived
01:00:20In Verona
01:00:21Own
01:00:22Own
01:00:22While we
01:00:22We were
01:00:23Turning
01:00:23We at
01:00:24Telephone
01:00:24Yellow
01:00:25These
01:00:26Reconstructions
01:00:28Filmed
01:00:29Why
01:00:30Associate
01:00:32The date
01:00:34Of the disappearance
01:00:35By Christian
01:00:35Lorandi
01:00:36The 28th
01:00:38April
01:00:39With
01:00:40The day
01:00:41From the
01:00:43Execution
01:00:44Pardon
01:00:45From
01:00:46Benito
01:00:46Mussolini
01:00:47If there are any
01:00:50Some reasons
01:00:50Let it be clearer
01:00:53And all that
01:00:54Gianni Cantù
01:00:55He wanted to intervene
01:00:56Yes
01:00:58You ask yourself
01:00:59Why
01:01:00He speaks
01:01:01He doesn't claim it
01:01:02Nothing
01:01:03Why are you talking?
01:01:04By Christian
01:01:04Lorandi
01:01:05Now
01:01:06I would like to tell you
01:01:07That I received
01:01:08Tens
01:01:10Of messages
01:01:11Of vindication
01:01:12From a boy
01:01:13Which we know very well
01:01:15I could give you
01:01:15The address
01:01:16The phone number
01:01:17Claim
01:01:18Of crimes
01:01:19That have nothing to do with it
01:01:20Absolutely
01:01:21With Ludwig
01:01:23I can speak
01:01:24Anything else?
01:01:25Please
01:01:27I can
01:01:28Reconnect
01:01:28To the speech
01:01:29Of the Third Man
01:01:30To which
01:01:32He mentioned
01:01:33At the start
01:01:34Just about the transmission
01:01:35Lawyer Guarienti
01:01:36I would like to make a clarification.
01:01:37Lawyer Guarienti
01:01:39He says
01:01:41The testimonies
01:01:42On the third man
01:01:43They are not reliable
01:01:44Why do they all come?
01:01:46After some time
01:01:47Now
01:01:47This is not apparent to me.
01:01:49Why
01:01:49For example
01:01:50With regard to
01:01:51The massacre
01:01:52Of the cinema
01:01:53Eros
01:01:53Six deaths
01:01:54Then injured
01:01:55Milan
01:01:56There are some testimonies
01:01:57Immediate
01:01:58Returned to the public prosecutor
01:01:59From Milan
01:02:01Out of three
01:02:02Always on three men
01:02:03One more thing
01:02:05About this
01:02:08It's not a message
01:02:10Of this
01:02:10Of this collage
01:02:13And of a speech
01:02:16What was she doing?
01:02:17Corrado Augas
01:02:19They keep coming
01:02:20Attributable messages
01:02:22To Ludwig
01:02:23Well, I wouldn't agree.
01:02:24On the attributable
01:02:25To Ludwig
01:02:26This one tonight
01:02:27They are definitely apocryphal
01:02:29No but
01:02:29We are in presence there
01:02:31Of one of the many jackals
01:02:32Even of these
01:02:34I have dozens of them
01:02:34Reached all the newspapers
01:02:36To the agency
01:02:36At Ansa
01:02:37And also to the police
01:02:39And me too
01:02:41That's a case
01:02:42This is another case
01:02:43What's coming?
01:02:46Conductible
01:02:46To a series
01:02:47This is the question
01:02:49Which I believe they ask themselves
01:02:50Tell me
01:02:50How do they explain themselves?
01:02:51These cases
01:02:53These
01:02:54These
01:02:55Messages
01:02:55Who's fishing?
01:02:57In the towers
01:02:58This is a boy
01:02:59Paranoid
01:03:00That we know
01:03:01And who will this be?
01:03:03One moment
01:03:04Ready
01:03:05Good evening
01:03:06Good evening
01:03:07I'm a TV viewer
01:03:09From Padua
01:03:10I wanted
01:03:11Tell her
01:03:12Which in my opinion
01:03:13Modest opinion
01:03:15In my opinion
01:03:17It is not to be overlooked
01:03:18The track
01:03:18Italo
01:03:20Austrian
01:03:20Or anyway
01:03:38Act
01:03:39It is mentioned
01:03:40In any case
01:03:42I
01:03:44In my opinion
01:03:45Modest opinion
01:03:46Why I look
01:03:46Always yours
01:03:47Transmission
01:03:48Because it's very interesting
01:03:49All right
01:03:49Please
01:03:50All right
01:03:51Go ahead
01:03:52Here you are
01:03:52I wouldn't leave it out
01:03:53That
01:03:54The track
01:03:54Why
01:03:55Of course
01:03:56There is a basis
01:03:57Here in Italy
01:03:58OR
01:04:00I can
01:04:00I can
01:04:01I mean
01:04:02Friends
01:04:02Of this
01:04:03Can I interrupt you?
01:04:05One moment
01:04:05Dear Madam
01:04:06From Padua
01:04:06Why is there the professor?
01:04:07Acquaviva
01:04:07Who disagrees
01:04:09From her
01:04:09Why
01:04:10I disagree
01:04:11Why culture
01:04:12Altotesina
01:04:12It's very far away
01:04:14Despite
01:04:15What is believed
01:04:16From Nazism
01:04:16Meaning what
01:04:17Even the shapes
01:04:18Even the shapes
01:04:19More nationalist
01:04:21What they want to create
01:04:22This State
01:04:23Free of South Tyrol
01:04:24I am absolutely
01:04:25Not Nazis
01:04:26It's an interpretation
01:04:27That many of us
01:04:28Harm
01:04:29But that is not correct
01:04:30Because if we
01:04:30Let's go and see
01:04:31The newspapers
01:04:32The lyrics
01:04:32That they publish
01:04:33We know very well
01:04:35Which are absolutely
01:04:36Legalists
01:04:37And it is precisely
01:04:38The only reason
01:04:39So in South Tyrol
01:04:40Despite some episodes
01:04:42Sporadic
01:04:42He was not born
01:04:43Terrorism
01:04:44Because if there had been
01:04:45A real Nazi matrix
01:04:47Within
01:04:48Of movements
01:04:49Independentists
01:04:50Tyroleans
01:04:50At this time
01:04:51We will have terrorism
01:04:52Rooted
01:04:53That there is not
01:04:54Healer
01:04:54No
01:04:56Excuse me
01:04:56Excuse me
01:04:57I always make up for it
01:04:59To all the attacks
01:05:00What have been done?
01:05:01The Tradictions
01:05:01Of high tension
01:05:02That sect
01:05:05What now
01:05:05It doesn't come to me
01:05:06The name
01:05:06Anyway
01:05:07That they are not
01:05:08Also
01:05:09Retaliations
01:05:09Towards the Italian people
01:05:11Yes but
01:05:12The Heimatbundo
01:05:13He's not a Nazi
01:05:14And the attacks
01:05:15What have been done
01:05:16It has been proven
01:05:17All people
01:05:18Which were taken
01:05:19That they were not
01:05:20In connection
01:05:21With the group
01:05:21The Heimatbundo
01:05:23It's the head
01:05:24Eva Klotz
01:05:25Eva Klotz
01:05:25Notoriously
01:05:26He said
01:05:27He wrote
01:05:28He reiterated
01:05:29What do they want?
01:05:30Follow the legal path
01:05:31What do they want?
01:05:32A plebiscite
01:06:02How was it
01:06:02May there always be
01:06:03Of the insertions
01:06:05Of personality
01:06:07Mythomaniacs
01:06:07Oh fragile ones
01:06:08Oh lovers
01:06:09About advertising
01:06:09Or something else
01:06:10What are they looking for?
01:06:12To make believe
01:06:13To be
01:06:14A someone
01:06:15In the events
01:06:16So it's a process
01:06:17For example
01:06:18To tell her
01:06:19Cantu
01:06:20He will have received it
01:06:21Him too
01:06:21Wednesday
01:06:22It was not known
01:06:24That I would have participated
01:06:24On the show
01:06:25Just because
01:06:26I was part of it
01:06:26In the process perhaps
01:06:27It reaches me
01:06:28One of the many messages
01:06:29That they are
01:06:30Giant sheets
01:06:31Computer-generated
01:06:33It starts like this
01:06:34Joke with the infantry
01:06:35But it doesn't leave
01:06:36But don't leave
01:06:37But don't let it go
01:06:39The Saints
01:06:40And it concludes
01:06:41To say
01:06:42The absurdity
01:06:43AND
01:06:43Not having to
01:06:45Keep any account
01:06:46Of these messages
01:06:47Pending
01:06:48Of any future notes
01:06:49Meditate
01:06:50People meditate
01:06:51Aufi describen
01:06:53We will rewrite
01:06:54Basically
01:06:55With an indication
01:06:57Excuse me
01:06:57Of a series of dates
01:06:59The current ones
01:07:01May 14th
01:07:02May 15th
01:07:03May 19th
01:07:03And more
01:07:04And references to Saints
01:07:05Saint Paschal
01:07:06Santorquattro
01:07:06Saint Peter of Morrone
01:07:07San Bernardino
01:07:08References to encyclicals too
01:07:10So a subject
01:07:11Which evidently
01:07:12He has interests
01:07:13And religious culture
01:07:13Very busy
01:07:14Perhaps Professor Garavaglia
01:07:16He would gladly take care of it
01:07:17The confirmation
01:07:19That confirms it
01:07:20Yes one moment
01:07:21Rusconi
01:07:22Which in this case
01:07:23The political dimension
01:07:25As abhorrent as it is
01:07:26It is basically
01:07:27Non-existent
01:07:28So the speech
01:07:29It moves
01:07:30This can be
01:07:32A pathology
01:07:33From
01:07:34Which indicates
01:07:35Another one
01:07:36Intolerance
01:07:37I insist
01:07:38To xenophobia
01:07:39Or
01:07:39Against homosexuals
01:07:40Meaning what
01:07:41All this
01:07:41Which is intolerance
01:07:42For the different
01:07:43For the annoying
01:07:44For what disturbs
01:07:46Sexually
01:07:47Which is still
01:07:47Anti-political
01:07:49Impolitic
01:07:50But it is virtually
01:07:51Available
01:07:52To an interpretation
01:07:54And to one
01:07:56Reculturation
01:07:57Politics
01:07:58And this
01:07:58On which I would like to insist
01:08:00In my opinion
01:08:01This phenomenon
01:08:02What we are studying
01:08:02It belongs
01:08:03To pathology
01:08:04But it could
01:08:05Virtually
01:08:06In another context
01:08:07Rusconi
01:08:08After this answer
01:08:09To this phone call
01:08:10I want to do them
01:08:11An objection
01:08:11Ready
01:08:12Ready
01:08:13My name is Mario
01:08:14I am a member
01:08:15Of the front
01:08:16Of the people
01:08:16From Cosenza
01:08:17So
01:08:18I would like to say
01:08:19Why did you notice?
01:08:20Only now
01:08:22By Ludwig
01:08:23In Italy
01:08:23When
01:08:24These facts
01:08:26They are welcomed
01:08:27A long time ago
01:08:28Ludwig
01:08:29I spoke
01:08:31With people
01:08:32Very sympathetic
01:08:34That
01:08:34He wanted to sign up
01:08:36To this lodge
01:08:37Mazzonica
01:08:38Let's say
01:08:39I spoke
01:08:40With these people
01:08:41These people
01:08:43He fights
01:08:43Against
01:08:46Against
01:08:47Let's say
01:08:48These people
01:08:49That
01:08:49Sign up
01:08:50Against drug addicts
01:08:52There are those
01:08:52What can they bring?
01:08:53AIDS
01:08:54That
01:08:54They don't have
01:08:56The
01:08:58Respect
01:08:59For others
01:09:00I this
01:09:01I wanted to say
01:09:02And I spoke
01:09:03With them
01:09:03And I said
01:09:04That's how it is
01:09:04He discredits himself
01:09:05Only fascism
01:09:06In Italy
01:09:08And throughout Europe
01:09:08When
01:09:10Instead we
01:09:11We are going
01:09:11Far ahead
01:09:13And we could
01:09:14Fight too
01:09:15With them
01:09:15For these things
01:09:16Above all there
01:09:17We will fight
01:09:17With them
01:09:19Thank you very much
01:09:20There is
01:09:20Salierno
01:09:21Who answers her?
01:09:23I'd love that
01:09:23Yes but
01:09:24I believe
01:09:25That
01:09:25Dear
01:09:26Comrade
01:09:26Salierno
01:09:27Former
01:09:28Comrade
01:09:28If you allow me
01:09:2935 years ago
01:09:31Now also
01:09:32The one sitting on the right
01:09:32But they are clearly
01:09:33Far left
01:09:35Reconnecting
01:09:36To what he was saying
01:09:37Rusconi
01:09:38Me on this
01:09:39I am really
01:09:39Deeply convinced
01:09:40That this
01:09:41It's a symptom
01:09:42Pathological
01:09:43Of a phenomenon
01:09:43But wider
01:09:44Physiological
01:09:45Which is born
01:09:46In new forms
01:09:46The phone calls
01:09:47That have arrived
01:09:48They are symptomatic
01:09:49All
01:09:49There is no doubt
01:09:50Here is Caraglia
01:09:51That can't
01:09:52That you give me reason
01:09:53We assist
01:09:54In a wave
01:09:55Different
01:09:56Of xenophobia
01:09:57In Europe
01:09:58Due
01:09:58A massive
01:10:00Immigration
01:10:00To other phenomena
01:10:01On which it takes
01:10:02Pretext
01:10:03Also from Ludwig
01:10:04Meaning what
01:10:04He who
01:10:05Receives the message
01:10:06By Ludwig
01:10:07You see
01:10:08In the symbol
01:10:09A phenomenon
01:10:11What connects it
01:10:11To current problems
01:10:13The AIS is current
01:10:14Nothing to do with it
01:10:15With the past
01:10:15But it is experienced
01:10:16In a different way
01:10:17This Caraglia
01:10:18I think from the point
01:10:19From a technical point of view
01:10:20Let there be no doubt
01:10:21And from the point
01:10:22From a political point of view
01:10:22The real problem
01:10:23This is it
01:10:23Meaning what
01:10:24The new forms
01:10:25Which assumes
01:10:25This
01:10:26That old buried one
01:10:27We know her
01:10:28She's dead
01:10:28That new one
01:10:29Instead it is a phenomenon
01:10:30Real
01:10:31Which is growing
01:10:33Allow me
01:10:35Maybe the last intervention
01:10:36I wanted to say
01:10:37Which I totally agree with.
01:10:38With the latest interventions
01:10:39Of the various professors
01:10:40Meaning what
01:10:40Actually
01:10:41Here in this story
01:10:42I can't hear it
01:10:43Nothing political
01:10:44From a serious perspective
01:10:47Meaning what
01:10:47I believe
01:10:48That one must remain
01:10:49Members
01:10:49To the conclusions
01:10:50Of the expertise
01:10:52Done in the first instance
01:10:53Some professors
01:10:53Balloni and Reggiani
01:10:54That the Court of Assis
01:10:55He did it right
01:10:56Allow me
01:10:57They are 5 or 6 lines
01:10:58They judge
01:11:00Above all Label
01:11:01Why Furlan
01:11:02He did not submit
01:11:03By expert opinion
01:11:03And he is judged
01:11:04Semi-sick
01:11:05For the report
01:11:06What he had
01:11:06The induction
01:11:07Which he had suffered
01:11:08From Label
01:11:08It is defined
01:11:10I think that here
01:11:10It must be circumscribed
01:11:12Possibly
01:11:12The exam
01:11:13Of personality
01:11:14If you agree
01:11:16Paranoid sketch
01:11:18Developed
01:11:19In abnormal personality
01:11:20With hysterical traits
01:11:21And abnormal behaviors
01:11:23And that highlights
01:11:23A flaw
01:11:24In forming
01:11:25Social relations
01:11:26More than politics
01:11:26Lack of feelings
01:11:28Towards others
01:11:29Indifference to criticism
01:11:30Need to be alone
01:11:32And have few
01:11:33Or no friend
01:11:34Emotional coldness
01:11:36All features
01:11:37Grafted into personalities
01:11:39Energetic
01:11:40Ambitious
01:11:40Stubborn
01:11:41Aware
01:11:42Of one's own
01:11:42Superiority
01:11:43With features
01:11:44Hysterical
01:11:45Highlighted
01:11:47From mythomania
01:11:47And he concluded
01:11:49Absence of feelings
01:11:51Enough for goodness sake
01:11:52I think that
01:11:53This is the specific fact
01:11:54Games
01:11:54And we agree
01:11:55Of this
01:11:55But
01:11:56On this fact
01:11:58What are we talking about?
01:11:59Which is specific
01:12:00Of this pathology
01:12:01Of these two people
01:12:02Although
01:12:03Legally
01:12:04Not entirely relevant
01:12:06It's so true
01:12:06That the experts
01:12:07They played
01:12:07A semi-infirmity
01:12:08And a total infirmity
01:12:11We have already said
01:12:11That the real psychotic
01:12:12He doesn't need it
01:12:12To commit crimes
01:12:13We said it
01:12:14At other times
01:12:15Anyway
01:12:16Instead
01:12:17But it's true
01:12:18That
01:12:19Leavening
01:12:19They are like catalysts
01:12:21These facts
01:12:22Which have a resonance
01:12:23With a big drum
01:12:25Cantu
01:12:25We were saying before
01:12:26Maybe too big
01:12:28From the press
01:12:29And it can become latent
01:12:31What
01:12:32Salerno highlighted
01:12:33That is, this creeping
01:12:35Of this new
01:12:35Informal way
01:12:37Which is not yet
01:12:38Assumed a cultural dignity
01:12:40But what is it?
01:12:40An emotionality
01:12:42It's something
01:12:43Which is pre-cultural
01:12:44And what is perhaps happening?
01:12:45Let's hope not.
01:12:46Organizing
01:12:49No
01:12:49No
01:12:49I would say I would definitely be
01:12:51No
01:12:51We never agree
01:12:53I don't agree
01:12:55With what he said
01:12:56Salerno
01:12:56Not even with this
01:12:57Why
01:12:57If it comes out
01:12:59A racism
01:13:00Today
01:13:00It's a thing
01:13:01Completely different
01:13:02As it is in France
01:13:03It has other cultural bases
01:13:05And it makes no reference whatsoever
01:13:07Symbols of the past
01:13:09And so
01:13:09No reference
01:13:10To these symbols
01:13:11These are not symbols
01:13:13Yes, certainly
01:13:14The presence of Africans
01:13:15It will probably cause problems
01:13:17But they won't be certain
01:13:18The various Ludvigos
01:13:19Or the Gottmitun
01:13:21But it is the motion of feelings
01:13:22They are symbols of it
01:13:23They are symbols of it
01:13:24No, they are not the symbols
01:13:24They're not even symbols
01:13:26They become feelings
01:13:27He graduates
01:13:28Gentleman
01:13:28A point is the pathological symptom
01:13:30You have embarked
01:13:31In a discussion
01:13:32That would have no end
01:13:34That would have no end
01:13:35If we let her continue
01:13:36So I think that
01:13:37It will be agreed
01:13:38Leave it to your wise men
01:13:41To your treaties
01:13:41And end it here
01:13:43With regard to
01:13:44The case of Ludwig
01:13:44Which we have searched for
01:13:46To talk tonight
01:13:48Putting things back in order
01:13:49In fact
01:13:49And circumscribing
01:13:50It seems to me that this
01:13:51Let it come unanimously
01:13:53From many of the participants
01:13:54Circumscribing
01:13:56These 15 murders
01:13:57To the aberration
01:14:00Of elements
01:14:01Of two
01:14:01And we believe
01:14:03More than two
01:14:04Three
01:14:04Probably
01:14:05Authors
01:14:06What do they have?
01:14:07Poor kinship
01:14:08Both with culture
01:14:09From which they say they are linked
01:14:11What with ideologies
01:14:13Even violent ones
01:14:14Even bloody ones
01:14:15That are circulating
01:14:16In our time
01:14:17Racism included
01:14:19Yellow Telephone
01:14:20Next week
01:14:21It won't be broadcast
01:14:23Why it will be replaced
01:14:24From the monthly appointment
01:14:26With solidarity
01:14:27That goes under
01:14:27The title
01:14:28In a public place
01:14:29In the green
01:14:30We will come back to you
01:14:31In two weeks
01:14:32At the end of the month
01:14:33The 27th
01:14:33With a case
01:14:35Which made history
01:14:37And that makes you think
01:14:38The murder
01:14:39From the professor
01:14:40Seminars
01:14:41See you in 15 days
01:14:43Thanks for following us
01:14:44Good night
01:15:12Thanks for following us
01:15:42Thanks for following us
01:16:08Thanks for following us
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