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00:17Previously on The Hack
00:18I'm friends with Claire Rewcastle-Brown, the journalist and sister-in-law of Gordon Brown.
00:24He's leaning in.
00:26Murdoch's ambition is limitless, but he's overstepped here.
00:28Part of a new operation, Operation Wheating.
00:31We're investigating allegations of phone hacking.
00:34Contact of mine in the force has been put on it.
00:37He's feeding me.
00:38This fell into your lap, okay?
00:40This could get you in serious trouble.
00:42Hello.
00:43Dave, it's Mike of Assam.
00:45Give Panorama, Mike Sullivan, Nick Davis, anything about our cases, and you'll be strung up for all to see.
00:52I was in the database.
00:53News of the World, April 14th, 2002.
00:56Millie Dowler.
00:56Jingle says there is a page on Dowler in Marquez's notebooks.
01:00The news of the world will not be forgiven for this.
01:02I was being drawn to stories again and again with the same theme.
01:06A deep-seated urge to hit back at anybody at all who takes power and abuses it.
01:14Our guest now joining us from the newsroom of The Guardian is Nick Davies, award-winning journalist who has brought
01:20phone hacking into the light.
01:22Hi.
01:22Now, Nick Davies, could you have predicted the furore that the Millie Dowler case seems to have caused?
01:31Uh, predicted, no, but I do think it speaks well for the British public, for the world public, that a
01:38furore has been provoked.
01:40You have Rupert Murdoch firmly on the ropes.
01:43I have to say I'm horrified that they closed the news of the world.
01:46Good journalists have lost their jobs.
01:48I believe this was a cynical move on Murdoch's part to help aid his capture of B-Sky-B.
01:55And what do you think it is about the Millie Dowler case that has had such an impact?
01:59Well, what we discovered was that during the period of her disappearance, news of the world were using a private
02:05investigator to listen to her voicemails.
02:08So that in itself is horrid, deeply personal stuff.
02:11Friends and family still thought she may have run away and were imploring her to come home.
02:15The voicemail filled up, which is why they deleted the messages.
02:20Now, friends and family who had previously heard the message voicemail full were surprised by this, and the presumption became
02:27that Millie was still alive.
02:29I guess we all want to know whether Rupert Murdoch will feature in front of your Leveson inquiry, and what?
02:34Ah, well, before Leveson, actually, Rupert Murdoch is due to speak at the House of Commons Media Select Committee.
02:41We want to get answers from him as to what he knew about phone hacking, widespread practice at his newspaper,
02:47when he knew about it, and why he didn't act.
02:50Nick Davies, thank you for joining us.
02:53Thank you for having me.
03:01Whether Rupert bails on us, I don't know.
03:03Do anything.
03:04Are we singing Happy Birthday?
03:06So, who's getting to ask the first question?
03:08Well, I do, though Nick is intent on writing it for me.
03:12Uh, I think we should sing.
03:14No, Happy Birthday's a terrible song.
03:16Nick thinks Happy Birthday's fascistic.
03:18It is culturally fascistic.
03:20Everyone has to sing the same song on their bloody birthday.
03:22Where's the individuality?
03:23Well, we could sing, um...
03:25What's the one where we count the candles on the birthday cake?
03:28Have we the energy?
03:29Oh, speech.
03:30At least we deserve a speech.
03:32Yes, yes, on your feet.
03:34Uh, no.
03:34But, okay, I would like to thank you all for coming, and I would like to remind you, we have
03:41work to do.
03:41The Select Committee.
03:42The Select Committee is our chance, with Murdoch on the stand.
03:45And I won't let you down.
03:47No, no, no, Tom, I'm not saying that.
03:48Maybe I should have let you retire.
03:50You were going to retire?
03:51Move to Belgium.
03:52Ah, chocolate.
03:54And then, with Levinson, making sure that we're fully prepared.
03:57Nick, Nick.
03:57Today, we celebrate.
03:59A prep session would have been much more preferable to any kind of birthday.
04:02Not only are the songs fascistic, but Nick thinks birthdays are narcissistic.
04:06He likes to work.
04:07True.
04:07How nice, then, that none of his friends came, just the people he works with.
04:11Now you're treading a very fine line between insulting me.
04:14Happy birthday to you.
04:17Happy birthday to you.
04:21Happy birthday, dear Nick.
04:25Happy birthday to you.
04:33Happy birthday, dear Nick.
04:58You are going to have to give evidence at Levinson.
05:00It needs your heft.
05:01It needs...
05:01Look, Alan's house may have been compromised.
05:03What?
05:04He hired someone to sweep his house for bugs.
05:07That person subcontracted it.
05:09The person they subcontracted it to.
05:11Worked for Rhys.
05:12As an associate of Rhys.
05:15How do you know?
05:16I can't tell you.
05:17But I know Rhys has been bragging about how he knows the bug sweeper.
05:20You sure?
05:22Ask Alan about the socks he keeps under the piano.
05:25The socks?
05:26Oh, Christ.
05:27It's true.
05:29I like him.
05:31I'd get a better feel for the piano if I'm playing barefoot.
05:34Alan, you do not have good hiring practices.
05:37Seems possible to claim.
05:39You hired someone to debug your house, and instead they may have compromised...
05:43Are my children in danger?
05:46Dave doesn't think so.
05:47Don't know about you and me.
05:49We've got Murdoch on the stand.
05:53They know they're being hunted.
05:55called an animal the most vicious animal of all.
05:58Fuck.
06:05I thought the worst of it was over.
06:09The day after Cameron announced the Leveson inquiry into phone hacking, the CMS Select Committee issued an order summoning Rupert
06:17Murdoch and his son James to attend Parliament on the 19th of July to basically explain himself.
06:25The significance of this moment was not lost on any of us.
06:28If we asked the right questions, we could ensnare them, both of them, father and son.
07:00We are now in session.
07:02Mr. Watson will ask the first question.
07:05Mr. Murdoch Senior, Mr. Murdoch Junior, good afternoon, thanks for coming in today.
07:10My first question is for Mr. Murdoch Senior.
07:14You have repeatedly stated that News Corp has zero tolerance to wrongdoing by employees.
07:21Is that right?
07:22Is that me?
07:24Yes.
07:26In October 2010, did you still believe it to be true when you made your Thatcher speech and you said,
07:33let me be clear, we will vigorously pursue the truth and we will not tolerate wrongdoing?
07:40Yes.
07:42So if you were not lying then, somebody lied to you, who was it?
07:47I don't know.
07:49That is what the police are investigating and we are helping them with.
07:52But you acknowledge that you were misled?
07:55Clearly.
07:57If I can take you to 2006, when Clive Goodman was arrested and subsequently convicted of intercepting voicemails, were you
08:09made aware of that?
08:11I think so.
08:12I was certainly made aware of when they were convicted.
08:15And what did News International do subsequent to the arrest of Clive Goodman and Glenn Mulcair to get to the
08:22facts?
08:23We worked with the police on further investigation and eventually we appointed, but very quickly appointed,
08:30a very leading firm of lawyers in the city to investigate it further.
08:36What did you personally do to investigate that after Mr. Goodman went to prison?
08:41You were obviously concerned about it.
08:44I spoke to Mr. Hinton, who told me about it.
08:52OK.
08:54Um, in 2008, another two years, why did you not dismiss News of the World Chief Reporter Neville Thirlbeck following
09:03the Mosley case?
09:05I'd never heard of him.
09:08So none of your UK staff drew your attention to this serious wrongdoing, even though the case received widespread media
09:16attention?
09:17I think my son can perhaps answer that in more detail. He was a lot closer to it.
09:21I will come to your son in a minute.
09:24Um, can I ask you, when did you first meet Mr. Alex Marinchak?
09:34Mr.
09:36Alex Marinchak.
09:38He worked for the company for 25 years.
09:40I don't remember meeting him. I might have shaken hands walking through the office, but I don't have any memory.
09:46Mr. Murdoch Senior, you seem to indicate that you had a rather hands-off approach to your company.
09:55Could you just give us an illustration of how often you would speak to the editors of your newspapers?
10:01Um, for example, how often you would speak to the editor of the song, or to the editor of the
10:06News of the World?
10:09Um, very seldom.
10:12Sometimes I'd ring the editor of the News of the World on a Saturday night and say,
10:15have you got any news tonight? But it was just to keep in touch.
10:18Well, I'm intrigued, um, as to how these conversations might go.
10:24I imagine that to the editor of the News of the World, it might go along the lines of, um,
10:30anything to report.
10:31And the editor of the News of the World says,
10:33no, no, it's been a standard week. We paid Gordon Taylor £600,000.
10:39He never said that last sentence.
10:41Well, I mean, surely in your weekly conversation with the editor of the News of the World,
10:45with something as big as that, paying someone a million pounds, paying someone £700,000,
10:51I mean, surely you'd have expected the editor to just drop it into the conversation at some point during your
10:57weekly chat.
10:58No, I'd say, what's doing?
11:01Sorry?
11:02I'd say, what's doing?
11:05And what sort of response would you expect?
11:08Well, he might say, we've got a great story exposing X or Y,
11:12or he would say, more likely, nothing special.
11:15He might refer to the fact that however many extra pages were dedicated to the football that week.
11:20But he wouldn't tell you about a million pound payoff.
11:24I just want to say that I was brought up by a father
11:28who was not rich, but who was a great journalist.
11:32And he, just before he died, bought a small paper specifically in his will
11:37saying he was giving me the chance to do good.
11:40Now, I remember what he did and what he was most proud of
11:43and for which he was hated in this country by many people for many, many years,
11:48which was to expose the scandal at Gallipoli,
11:51which I remain very, very proud of.
11:53I think that all students of history will be...
11:56Scammy!
11:58How?
12:01Um, the sitting is suspended.
12:07Fuck it.
12:09The defence told the court the father of one from Windsor
12:12had wanted to show his revulsion over the scandal at News International.
12:16He'd admitted assaulting...
12:18If I could get my hands on that fool!
12:19He's in custody.
12:21He thinks, what, that his amateur dramatics are more useful
12:24than what we were doing in that room?
12:25Good questions were asked.
12:26Yeah, they were, and they weren't answered.
12:28And that obfuscation is important.
12:31Well, it was.
12:33Oh, God, that awful senile act Murdoch was putting on.
12:38That needed writing about,
12:40but now every papal will carry one thing and one thing only.
12:43Wendy Murdoch fighting for her man.
12:45You're worrying too much, Nick.
12:47You don't understand news cycles.
12:49Yeah, but it's still Leveson.
12:51Yeah, nothing else but Leveson.
12:52There is no air but Leveson F.
12:54Leveson doesn't produce...
12:55Then what?
12:56You're going to hide under a teetail for the rest of your life?
12:59Well, Nick,
13:00a serious inquiry led by quite a clever bloke
13:03is happening because of your journalism.
13:06It could mean regulation,
13:08ethics,
13:09maybe even an appropriate relationship
13:11between press, politicians and police.
13:14When did you become the positive one?
13:16Oh, fuck off.
13:17Lord Leveson's report's given us a new press
13:19and a new Dave Cook.
13:21Fuck off.
13:22Twice.
13:30What's the latest with the select committee?
13:32We're going to get James Murdoch back in.
13:34On what grounds?
13:35Clarity on whether or not he was told about the Neville email.
13:41Why are there police officers in our newsroom?
13:45What?
13:50They want to talk to Amelia.
13:53Amelia?
13:53What about?
13:55They're citing the official secret site.
14:22They're saying they won't leave until they've spoken to you.
14:25No.
14:25No way.
14:26Not without a lawyer.
14:27Agreed.
14:28They don't like my biscuits
14:30and they don't like my small talk about Chopin.
14:33They're saying they need your notebooks.
14:35If you can't find your notebooks,
14:37they'll get a warrant and enter your flat.
14:39They're also saying
14:40that notebooks aren't in your flat,
14:42they could visit your mother.
14:43Tell them I'm not going to give up my source.
14:45All my notes.
14:46I'd rather go to prison.
14:48Right.
14:52Good.
14:53I'll contact some friends,
14:55give you some recommendations,
14:56or you can find a lawyer for yourself,
14:58a human rights specialist.
14:59This will get leaked.
15:00Right?
15:01I would expect so.
15:03But you might need to stay somewhere else tonight,
15:05with your friends or...
15:06This is what happens.
15:07We were exposing them,
15:08not the other way around.
15:09It isn't what happens.
15:11But it does seem to be what's happening.
15:15I'm so sorry.
15:25Hi.
15:27Hi.
15:30How are you?
15:32I'm okay.
15:35I'm calling about Leveson.
15:38I'm going to apply to be a core participant.
15:41The group packed off.
15:42I don't know if you've...
15:43Yeah, yeah.
15:43Well, they saw the Channel 4 interview
15:45and they've been pretty insistent
15:46that I say something.
15:47Not that they're making me...
15:53They seem very good people.
15:55They don't really have anyone to talk to
15:56about the Met from the inside
15:57and I think that's why they want me.
16:00Well, and they have you and they have me.
16:04You're doing it too?
16:06I registered yesterday.
16:07I was going to email.
16:09Their implications.
16:11Sure.
16:12For the kids.
16:14We'll have to speak to their school,
16:15their friends.
16:16We could be targets.
16:19Why is it worse me doing it than you?
16:23Because of Daniel Morgan.
16:25Because the case collapsed.
16:28They said you were feeding lines to a witness.
16:30You don't think they're going to use that against you
16:32if you give evidence...
16:33Now, listen, listen.
16:35Jackie, I just want this out there.
16:37Same as you do, okay?
16:48Hi, Nick.
16:49Sue Akers.
16:50I hope I'm not disturbing you.
16:51Deputy Assistant Commissioner.
16:53This is quite...
16:53Call me Sue, please.
16:54Quite the surprise, Sue.
16:57I was hoping you might have a moment
16:59to make me a cup of tea.
17:02Of course I do, yeah.
17:03Of course, come in.
17:04Sorry.
17:05Through here.
17:05Thanks.
17:11You've gone to my house.
17:13Not a short distance.
17:14On a Saturday.
17:16So...
17:16Whatever this is can't be good.
17:19I mean, I have to assume...
17:21Can't be good at all.
17:24Maybe take a seat.
17:26Oh, God.
17:28Nick, I'm afraid that part of the story
17:31you published about Millie Dowler
17:32is inaccurate.
17:36Inaccurate how?
17:37It looks likely that the news of the world
17:40did not delete voice messages
17:42from Millie Dowler's phone.
17:43It's probable it was the phone company.
17:46That's not...
17:47I have two separate sources.
17:48The network she used
17:50automatically deleted messages
17:51after 72 hours.
17:53That's how we presume
17:55they were wiped.
17:56You're using words like
17:57presume, probable, likely.
17:59And we believe those deletions
18:01happened prior
18:02to Glenn Mulcair
18:03being instructed
18:04to get inside her phone.
18:06Before Mulcair?
18:09Nick,
18:11I came here in person
18:12to acknowledge all you've done.
18:14Without you,
18:16waiting is impossible.
18:18Without you...
18:19You can't know
18:19for certain
18:21who deleted what.
18:22I'm sorry.
18:23We'll be releasing a statement
18:24to correct the record.
18:27The article said
18:28messages were deleted
18:29by journalists
18:30in the first few days
18:31after Millie's disappearance.
18:33That's the only inaccuracy.
18:35It's a large one.
18:36I have a good source
18:37which tells me
18:39Surrey police
18:39turned off
18:40the automatic deletion system
18:42on the fourth day
18:43and some voicemail
18:44appear to have been deleted after.
18:46Are they so?
18:48No.
18:49Sure?
18:51They were inside the phone.
18:53Yes.
18:53They may have
18:54subsequently deleted messages.
18:56My source tells me they did.
18:57I believe my source.
18:59Then there is too much
19:00for them to lose in court.
19:03Right.
19:04Well, then we issue
19:05a retraction
19:06and an apology.
19:07We made a mistake.
19:08We may not have.
19:09We made a mistake, Snake.
19:10There we are.
19:12Ten lashes for you,
19:13ten lashes for me.
19:14Two Acres agrees
19:15with most of our story.
19:16They did hack the phone.
19:18Surrey police did know about it.
19:19surely.
19:20I have two priorities.
19:22That they don't use this
19:24to try and obfuscate
19:25the crime they have committed.
19:27A dead girl's phone
19:28was hacked.
19:30And my other priority
19:32is you.
19:33What was that
19:33Carl Bernstein quote?
19:36All great reporting
19:38is the same thing.
19:39Best obtainable version
19:40of the truth.
19:42I'm going to be
19:43absolutely monster.
19:45It serves them very well
19:47to try and destroy
19:48your reputation.
19:49I don't want to apologise.
19:50Then don't.
19:52The paper has to.
19:54You don't.
19:55Stand up.
19:56Put on some
19:57iron underwear
19:58and fight.
20:05The monstering was
20:06high energy.
20:07Fuck you.
20:08Doubts turned into
20:09a certainty
20:10that we had got it wrong.
20:11Fuck you.
20:12Richard Caseby,
20:13managing editor of the Sun,
20:14told the House of Lords Committee
20:16that Alan Rusperger
20:16had sexed up
20:17his investigation
20:18into phone hacking.
20:19Fuck you.
20:20Rod Liddle
20:21in the Sunday Times
20:21said baldly
20:22the Guardian
20:23had made it up.
20:24Shame on you.
20:26But beneath all
20:29beneath all that
20:31exaggeration
20:31and hostility
20:32was the fact
20:33that I had stated
20:35as a fact
20:36something which now
20:37appeared to be untrue.
20:41I had damaged myself
20:43and I'd exposed
20:44the Guardian.
20:47So how are you
20:48enjoying it?
20:49Yeah, it's quite a thing.
20:50Outside your house?
20:52Whatever fuel
20:53they have
20:53they're readying
20:54to throw on the fire.
20:55So why are you so calm?
20:57Oh, I'm an optimist
20:58slash pessimist.
20:59I presume I'm capable
21:01of great things
21:01and yet assume
21:03the worst's about to happen.
21:04You always thought
21:05you'd be found out?
21:06Well, my mother
21:07said it would be.
21:07Maybe I should be
21:08an optimist
21:09slash pessimist.
21:10I wouldn't recommend it.
21:11Those are horrible
21:12things to your guts.
21:15Are you really
21:16going to New York?
21:18The police haven't
21:18charged me.
21:20Free to go.
21:21Well, you could just
21:22stay here.
21:23It'd be yesterday
21:23stale toast
21:24in no time.
21:26The Evening Standard
21:27tried to do a story
21:28about me sleeping
21:29with my source.
21:30A few weeks later
21:31they rang and said
21:32I was sleeping
21:32with an MP.
21:33Wrong Amelia
21:34and she's married to him.
21:36Yeah.
21:36I just...
21:38I can't.
21:40I don't want
21:41to be the story.
21:44No.
21:46No, I'm not sure
21:46I do either.
21:48Luckily, they had a
21:50booking free for me
21:51on Newsnight tonight
21:52and Jeremy Paxman
21:53is a notoriously
21:54kind interviewer.
21:55You're going on Newsnight?
21:56Yeah, against
21:57whoever.
21:59News International
22:00think it'll do me
22:00most damage.
22:02But, yeah,
22:03steel underpants
22:04filled with stale toast
22:05will be fine.
22:11If I don't come back
22:14I mean
22:15I want to say something.
22:19When this is all done
22:20and they tell the story
22:21of it
22:23you know,
22:23when you look back
22:24or write about it
22:27don't paint me
22:28as your protégé.
22:29I mean
22:31I've been at this
22:32a long time.
22:33I work jingle
22:34across multiple cases
22:35for years.
22:37I mean
22:37it was your story
22:39and Millie would have
22:40never happened
22:41without you.
22:42But it wouldn't have
22:42happened without me either.
22:44You don't need to say
22:45any of this.
22:45Don't let them whitewash
22:46all the other people out.
22:47You don't need to say
22:48any of this.
22:49I actually do.
22:52You have my word.
22:58Okay.
23:03Email me when you get there.
23:04If Paxman hasn't killed you first.
23:06Better email my calls.
23:09Good luck, Nick.
23:26Tonight.
23:27Who knew what
23:28and when
23:29in the phone hacking scandal?
23:31Could James Murdoch
23:32really have been unaware?
23:33Why did the Guardian
23:34claim the News of the World
23:35deleted voice messages
23:37when they had no evidence?
23:38It was the Guardian
23:39newspaper's claim
23:40stated as fact
23:41that they'd been erased
23:42by the News of the World
23:43which triggered the shutdown
23:44of what was once
23:45the biggest selling paper
23:46in the English-speaking world.
23:48Nick Davis,
23:49let's cut to the chase.
23:50What you claimed to be a fact
23:51wasn't a fact, was it?
23:54The story we published
23:56in July
23:57was squarely based
23:58on the evidence available
23:59correct in saying
24:01that her voicemail
24:02was deleted.
24:03And it remains the case
24:04that News International
24:05are not denying
24:06that News of the World
24:07journalists may have been
24:08responsible for those deletions.
24:10Well, let's look
24:10at the front page here.
24:12Yep.
24:13News of the World
24:13hacked Millie Dowler's phone
24:15during police hunt
24:16and the paper deleted
24:18missing schoolgirls'
24:19voicemails giving family
24:20false hope.
24:21You say in the copy
24:22the messages were deleted
24:23by journalists
24:24in the first few days
24:25after Millie's disappearance.
24:28Everybody who was involved
24:29in that story
24:30accepted it was true.
24:31It's a very interesting thing
24:32that when that story
24:34was done...
24:34No, no, no.
24:35Well, you're not allowing
24:36me to answer.
24:37Well, no, I'm not
24:37because you're not answering.
24:38Well, you're not asking
24:39the right questions.
24:40Oh, I'm sorry.
24:45Everybody involved
24:45in that story
24:46accepted that
24:47that story was true
24:48and continued to accept
24:50until four months...
24:51Right.
24:52...four months later...
24:53Perhaps, but...
24:53New evidence
24:54which was not available
24:55to everybody's surprise...
24:56No, you did not report
24:57it like that.
24:57...showed that one element
24:59of that story
24:59is now in doubt.
25:01It has not been proved
25:01to be untrue.
25:02So you accept
25:03it wasn't true.
25:04Jules Stenson was a features editor
25:05of the News of the World.
25:06What do you say?
25:06Well, the key point
25:07to this as well
25:08is that this wasn't
25:09any old story.
25:10This was a story
25:11that was the most important story
25:13in the Guardian's history.
25:14It was vital
25:15that every single element
25:16of it should be right
25:17and Nick Davis
25:18repeated that allegation
25:1934 times.
25:21Let's get things
25:22in proportion here.
25:23Your newspaper
25:24had hacked
25:24a murdered girl's telephone.
25:26What we did
25:26was indefensible
25:27not just to Millie
25:28but to all the victims
25:29of hacking.
25:30I'm not here
25:31to justify that
25:32in any way.
25:32What I am here to do,
25:33though,
25:34is to attack
25:34the shoddy journalism
25:35of the Guardian
25:36and the shoddy journalism
25:37of Nick.
25:37This is a classic example
25:39of the way
25:40tabloid newspapers work.
25:41You're in a heap of trouble
25:42because for years
25:43you personally
25:44have taken Murdoch's money
25:45and ruined people's lives
25:46and invaded people's privacy
25:48and engaged in criminal activity.
25:49You've hired private investigators
25:50in the past, haven't you?
25:52Private investigators
25:52who have broken the law.
25:53Haven't you, Jules?
25:54I'm not here
25:54to justify...
25:56You accuse me
25:56of shoddy journalism
25:58when your name
25:58is all over the records
25:59of Steve Whittemore,
26:00private investigator
26:01who was convicted
26:02of using illegal means.
26:03Your name's there.
26:04Information about
26:05Jeremy Thiexton
26:06about Anne Robinson
26:08about Anna Froull.
26:09There are public interest factors.
26:10You know what, Jules?
26:11You should just stop.
26:12Take a leaf out of
26:12Rupert Murdoch's book
26:13and get a bit humble
26:14or else just go quiet.
26:16People don't believe you anymore.
26:17Right.
26:17We're not going to be bullied
26:18by people like you anymore.
26:19We've had enough of you.
26:21Two years after this,
26:23Jules Stinson
26:23pled guilty
26:24to conspiracy
26:25to hack phones,
26:26but...
26:28Well, I wish I knew that
26:29at this moment.
26:41Do I want you?
26:45Oh my...
26:48Do I...
26:50Mommy...
26:52Did I do?
26:55Do I...
27:08Detective Chief Superintendent
27:10Dave Cook.
27:13Detective Chief Superintendent
27:14Dave Cook.
27:42Hello?
27:43Hi, Jackie.
27:44Is this Dave?
27:45David, what's this number?
27:48Listen, Jackie, I need you to pick up my kit.
27:54Where are you calling from?
27:58It's actually a police station number, Jackie. I've been arrested.
28:02What? On what charge?
28:08It's misconduct. Data protection.
28:16Do you read the dives?
28:17What, did they find anything?
28:19Some old files.
28:21What files? Why did you have files at home?
28:26I don't know.
28:28What the fuck are they doing?
28:32I don't know, Jackie.
28:35I don't know.
28:37What do we do? How can we help them?
28:39I'm not sure we're going to help until we know what they have.
28:42We have to do something.
28:43Nick, we both know he was passing information to both of us.
28:47And they've arrested Amelia's socks.
28:50Sit tight. We'll find an answer.
28:52Okay, bye.
28:58I don't know what you think you are, Phil.
29:00Would you like a cup of tea, sir?
29:01No, I would like to leave.
29:04I'm supposed to be given evidence tomorrow.
29:06I'm a participant in Leveson.
29:10I bet I'm not supposed you already know that.
29:14This conversation is being recorded, so...
29:17Yes.
29:19I understand that you've refused legal representation.
29:21Yes.
29:22And I do need to check that you do fully understand your rights.
29:26I'm 40 years in the police force, son.
29:28Yes, I understand my rights.
29:31Good.
29:32All right, let's start from the beginning, then, shall we?
29:35Tell me about your relationship with the journalist Mike Sullivan.
29:40No comment.
29:41So you deny passing information to journalists?
29:43And, as you know, police officers working for Operation Elvedon...
29:47Operation Elvedon is about bribery.
29:49I have never accepted money from a journalist in my life.
29:51It is an operation looking into the corrupt relations between police and the press.
29:58News International sent us emails.
30:00News International sent you emails.
30:02Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?
30:03Do you deny you were in regular contact with the journalist Mike Sullivan?
30:12Mike Sullivan and I worked together.
30:16It was John Yates who introduced us.
30:18He had access to my investigation in return for writing helpful articles in the newspaper.
30:24I have done nothing that a million police officers before me haven't done.
30:28It is standard police practice.
30:31She did nothing wrong.
30:33Nothing.
30:3740 years in the police service and you didn't know you broke the law.
30:43Shame on you.
30:56For me...
31:06For me...
31:22The Cook-Bæž— does not want you in case I don't need to tell you.
31:25They're trying to get us all.
31:27We're not waiting for any mistake.
31:29Then let's try not to make any mistakes.
31:32Come inside.
31:44Lindsay found a spare duvet from somewhere.
31:47I don't need to stay.
31:49You should.
31:50I'd like you to.
31:53I'm having a sleepover with the editor of The Guardian.
31:56Not editor.
31:57Friend.
32:00This, um...
32:02This may not be entirely comfortable.
32:04I should be helping.
32:06Yes, you should.
32:09I have a journalist running away to America.
32:12Two police officers under arrest.
32:14You're so paranoid.
32:15You're having this house periodically debugged, and it's...
32:18It's all your fault.
32:19Yeah.
32:23Do you remember when we first met?
32:26I felt like a child who forgot his pencil.
32:29You were so thrusting, and, well, I wasn't.
32:34No, you were ambitious.
32:36Hugely.
32:38Compensating for who knows what.
32:41And I thought, well, if everyone at The Guardian's like him, I'm done for.
32:46Thankfully, they weren't.
32:48And thankfully, as it turns out, I had something to offer you, as you had something to offer me.
32:58Nick, Nick, don't mistake the fact you were first through the door with the fact that everyone else went through
33:07the same door willingly.
33:09The sacrifices weren't for you.
33:11They were for your cause.
33:13You're part of a team, Nick.
33:15Nick, the funny thing is, you always have been.
33:20I think he's going to get away with it.
33:24No, no, no, I think he's going to get away with it.
33:27Perhaps.
33:29Perhaps that's what abusers do.
33:32Get away with things.
33:36Well, perhaps not.
33:38Not really.
33:39Maybe, maybe, deep down inside them, there's just damage.
33:52Yes, but sometimes, yes, but sometimes the damage they cause, sometimes.
33:59I mean, you're not trying to excuse her, him.
34:04No, Nick.
34:07I'm not trying to excuse your mother or him.
34:13I'm saying, all we can do is fight the best we can and hope we prove to be a valiant
34:24opponent.
34:25And, personally speaking, I'm so proud to have been a part of this great, valiant act.
34:36Whatever happens,
34:42know that.
35:04Oh, God.
35:04Oh, God.
35:05I don't know.
35:47I don't know.
36:04I don't know.
36:05You're before me.
36:06I'm just insanely horrifically early.
36:11It's Jackie, isn't it?
36:12Yes.
36:14I read a statement. Strong stuff. Harrowing. Punchy. Nick, by the way.
36:20I know. And thank you. Coming from you, that's all. Thank you.
36:32May I... I mean, I hope it's okay to ask. How's David?
36:37Oh, it's been a week since we spoke, but he's back in his house at least.
36:44He won't take my calls. He will when he's ready.
36:47It won't be you. It'll be him. It's generally him.
36:54He helped, by the way. I'm not sure whether you're aware.
36:58But he helped all of us. He was key.
37:01We wouldn't be here without his help.
37:09Sorry. You used to it.
37:11Let you prep. Run your lines.
37:19Oh, God.
37:19I'm usually good with details, but for some reason today my mind keeps going blank.
37:28I didn't sleep much.
37:34I didn't sleep much last night.
37:36Not a wink.
37:37But then I don't sleep. I'm not someone who sleeps.
37:39You've always been like that.
37:40Since I was a boy, yeah.
37:43David did tell you I wasn't a simple guy to understand, right?
37:50I've had days recently where I can't remember my own name.
37:54I've been in rooms full of people and forgotten why I'm even there.
37:57I suffer.
37:58I haven't done for years with panic attacks.
38:02Every time I sat down to write this statement, I'd, um...
38:08But this morning I woke up and I felt clear, clearer than I have done in years.
38:12That's good.
38:13Yes.
38:14Just remember, in the storm of all of this, in all their mere couple of news of the world,
38:26they decided that in the middle of this inquiry to launch the sun on Sunday...
38:53That thing you were doing with the ball, I don't mind.
38:56It helps to calm you.
38:58Oh God, why are you insane?
38:59Oh, I've been tested by bigger things.
39:01Please, do what you need to do.
39:19I'll be honest, I'm scared of this inquiry.
39:23I'm scared because I think you'll take the wrong recommendations.
39:28And because you'll destroy something which is precious without rebuilding something better.
39:36I don't want destroyed the notion of the unofficial source.
39:42Sue Akers has arrested 37, 38 people in the four inquiries she's been running.
39:48There have been a couple of arrests of police officers in cases where I know quite a lot about the
39:56circumstances.
39:57What's happened there is those officers have been told they will be charged with the common law offense of misconduct
40:04in a public office.
40:06Despite, to the best of my knowledge, there being no allegation of any kind of bribe or inducement,
40:13what those officers are being told is you will be charged and you can expect to get a prison term
40:20of up to 18 months because you've spoken to a reporter without permission.
40:28Now, these two cases are live.
40:30We don't know how they'll turn out.
40:31It may well be that the Crown Prosecution Service will say, hang on a moment, this doesn't apply.
40:38But I think it's worrying.
40:40And this is in the wake of the phone hacking.
40:42I worry that it might be a completely unjustifiable and unnecessary backlash to the allegation of collusion between News International
40:53and the Met.
40:53And the ultimate effect here may be to prevent unauthorized contact between journalists and police.
41:02When, as a matter of fact, without this unauthorized contact, the Metropolitan Police would have been allowed to carry on
41:07misleading press public in Parliament about this whole scandal.
41:11I'm also scared that this inquiry might misstep in a different direction, might soften itself as its attack from outside
41:22sources.
41:23I've been under attack in one form or another ever since I first attempted to reveal the practice of hacking.
41:28And I represent here today a team of people, all of whom have been under similar attacks.
41:36I've had to face extraordinary things to be part of this fight.
41:42And they've done so because what you're doing here today is precious.
41:49News.
41:51I think the best definition of it, news is what someone somewhere doesn't want you to know.
41:58The most difficult, skillful, interesting, important stuff that reporters do is about finding human sources and motivating them to help
42:10reveal that news.
42:11And I can tell you, someone at the front line of that, news is also often what someone is reluctant
42:19to tell.
42:21So it's hard to motivate a human source to reveal their truth.
42:28So I'd say, look, if I talk to you and they realize I've done this, then I'll lose my job
42:31or my career.
42:34Or I'll be beaten up, I'll be arrested, or embarrassed, or ashamed, I will hurt people who love me.
42:40It's a very sensitive moment.
42:42And you have to make those people safe.
42:47You have to make those people realize their truth is worth the risk.
42:55What these hackers did was about cutting out that human connection.
43:04These so-called journalists didn't find the truth, didn't persuade people to come with them.
43:08They just stole.
43:10They took.
43:14And humanity was lost in that moment.
43:18Not only in the privacy that was invaded, but also in the stories told from it.
43:23Our papers became dishrags of distorted content.
43:30A set of rogue journalists working for a rogue corporation undermined the very tenets of journalism.
43:41The very tenets of truth-telling.
43:48If this inquiry succeeds, we may be able to rebuild our newspapers.
43:53We may be able to make them what they should be.
44:00Fail.
44:02And News International will have trapped us all in their shadow.
44:09And I'm scared that we will never get out.
44:13Fail.
44:14Fail.
44:15Fail.
44:21Fail.
44:24Fail.
44:29Fail.
44:30Fail.
44:30Fail.
44:33Fail.
44:34Fail.
44:45Fail.
44:49Fail.
44:49Fail.
44:50Fail.
44:52Fail.
44:53Fail.
44:53Fail.
44:54Fail.
44:54Fail.
44:55Fail.
44:55Fail.
44:56Fail.
44:57Fail.
44:59Fail.
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