When Miracles Replace Jesus: Rethinking Charismania | Christian Thomaßen

2 days ago

John and Christian discuss the rise of miracle-centered Christianity and how modern charismatic culture often replaces the gospel with spectacle. Drawing from historical patterns, revival culture, and first-hand experiences, they explore why movements focused on signs and wonders drift away from Scripture and toward emotionalism, hype, and manipulative faith-building tactics. They compare the biblical purpose of miracles with how theatrics, staged healings, and personality-driven leadership have created confusion, dependency, and spiritual harm.

The conversation also examines William Branham’s revival era, fraudulent “manifestations,” the psychological pressure behind positive confession, and how charismatic environments can open the door to hero worship and authoritarian leadership. John and Christian reflect on the dangers of creating a false dichotomy between cessationism and continuationism, reminding listeners that the true gospel is not found in supernatural showmanship but in Christ Himself.

00:00 Introduction
01:12 Signs, Wonders, and the Gospel
05:00 Why Hyperfocus on Miracles Replaces the Gospel
09:04 The Roots of Modern Miracle Culture
14:01 First Impressions and Manipulation in Revivalism
18:06 Little David, Levitating Acts, and Early Showmanship
23:00 Pentecostal History and the UPC Connection
27:06 Faith, Atmosphere, and Psychological Pressure
31:00 Personal Testimony and Authentic Encounters
36:26 The False Dichotomy of Cessationism vs. Continuism
41:02 The Dangers of Hero Worship
47:05 Final Thoughts and Takeaways
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Transcript

00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Christian Thomason,

00:46host of Sanctum Artifact.

00:49Christian, it's good to be back and to talk more about Charismania.

00:53I don't know if you've noticed, but the podcast that you and I are doing, people are just really

00:58enjoying it. The feedback is incredible. So it's praise to you, but this is something that's

01:05really interesting to me, to hear what's happening in Germany, which is why I chose the topic for

01:10today. I wanted to talk a little bit about the signs and wonders and miracles and basically

01:17the difference between what the Pentecostal charismatic movement has created as a so-called

01:25supernatural experience versus what you see in the scripture. And I'm saying this, I qualified

01:31that on purpose, not to offend anybody, but I'm not saying that everything within those movements are

01:37technically bad or that even my opinion is that I'm against them. However, the focus, I think the

01:45hyper-focus on the miracles, the signs, the wonders, I think this is problematic to me.

01:50And it makes me question how much of it is real, how much of it is false, which is interesting when

01:56you think about the gospel, because in the gospel, the gospel is to tell others of the gospel, to

02:03spread the gospel, be disciples among men. If you have that focus that you want to teach other people

02:10about Jesus, well, how can you say that you're doing this when you're saying something that they

02:15too have to question instead of just simply saying the gospel? And what has happened over time,

02:22people in these movements, they think that the miracles are the gospel. In fact, whenever we left

02:28the Branham cult, they didn't say, are you leaving Jesus? Are you abandoning the gospel? What they said

02:34was, well, what about the divine healing? If you leave, you're not going to have access to this divine

02:39healing. So they think they alone have the ultimate authority on scripture, truth, healing,

02:46miracles, et cetera. But it's something for me that it's fascinating from a historical standpoint,

02:52because the way this developed in America, I think if it were to have spread in the same way

03:00that it did in the 40s and 50s, there are many today that would just say, no way, I'm not going to

03:05do this is all fake. And we'll get into some of those examples. But I really wanted to hear your

03:10perspective on this. Yeah, thanks for having me. Again, I learn a lot when we do this. And I think

03:18what's so interesting for most people is that my approach or my language is very generalistic and

03:25therefore funny sometimes. But it's not too far away from everyday normal life.

03:32Yeah, I think that's a good thing. To talk about experiences, not to go too deep into it. There's

03:42a place for theology. There's a place for deep thoughts. And there's a place for our common shared

03:48experiences as well. And I think many people gather around that because they share the same experiences

03:56as you and I.

03:57Part of the reason that this is so interesting for me, whenever I left the Branham movement,

04:02which was focused on divine healing, miracles, et cetera, which was a precursor to the prosperity

04:07gospel, it was a health prosperity. I studied the Bible and one of the passages that really stood out

04:14to me was in Matthew 12, an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. And if you continue

04:20reading, it says, but no sign shall be given them but the sign of Jonah. See, I grew up in a world

04:27where we read that verse continuously. We would say an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign,

04:34and we're in a signs, wonders, miracle religion. They never read down to that. You never heard them

04:40read that verse about Jonah because what they were trying to do, they were trying to separate between

04:46our group and their miracles and the other groups and their miracles. So what they're trying to say is

04:51we have the true miracles, they have the false miracles. And in the end, it's all the same thing.

04:58It's an evil and adulterous generation seeking after a sign. Now, in Jesus' day when he says this,

05:05Jesus is performing miracles. So it's not that he's saying there are no miracles. What he's saying is

05:12those who seek after them, that is the evil and adulterous generation. So I began to think about

05:17this and think about the hyper-focus on miracles. It seemed to me that in many cases, miracles had

05:24just simply replaced the gospel. You're describing typical tribalistic behaviors, like what's your

05:30favorite soccer club? My soccer club is better than yours, yeah? And the interesting point is many people

05:38people would say, ah, you guys are just bashing charismania, bashing Christians from other

05:46denominations. No, that's not what we're doing. We are not looking for that's better, that's worse.

05:51We are looking for the common ground. We are looking for a good relationship, for a good common

05:58ground between all Christians. And that common ground should be the gospel. That common ground should

06:04be Jesus and not signs and wonders. I think that's one of the main critiques that's a headline if you

06:14go through all of your messages and interviews and dialogues you have had in the past already, right?

06:22It's not bashing other Christians. It's what's the common ground? And that's the gospel. So let's talk

06:27about the gospel. That's the main point. That's the most important part of our faith. Let's present

06:33Jesus as he is. And the part in Matthew you were referencing to is especially interesting in that

06:42regard because the Jews hated Jesus because he was not the Messiah they wanted. And that's basically

06:51the fight we are fighting until today because those spiritual leaders that think they have to soften,

07:00they have to change the message, they have to give a different picture of the messenger, which is Jesus,

07:07do so because they think the real Jesus is not appealing for people. They would not like him,

07:15Jesus, if they don't change the language, change the meaning, change the Messiah to a person that is

07:25that is more likable to the people. The Jews of his time, of Jesus's time, won the day like a war messiah

07:33defeating the Romans. So he wasn't giving them that. He was there to heal the relationship between them

07:47and God. And that's, again, the word healing. What are we looking for healing? The thing that

07:56needs to get healed is our relationship with God, basically. That's the greatest wonder you can look

08:03for.

08:04Darrell Bock Whenever I begin reading the Bible over and over again, that's one of the things, the other

08:09things that stood out to me is that most of the passages that we use to apply to faith healing or

08:15divine healing were really talking about healing as the body of Christ as a whole. And specifically,

08:22many of the passages were talking about the healing of Jesus's relationship or God's relationship to the

08:29Jews. Because in the Mosaic law, there were approximately 300 blessings. If you obeyed the law,

08:37and then approximately 300 curses if you did not obey the law. And they had fell under all of these

08:43curses, many of these curses. And so there needed to be a spiritual healing. So most of the passages

08:49are talking about spiritual healing. There are some that are specific to physical healing. But

08:56whenever you consider the miracles, when Jesus is performing a miracle, it isn't so that it can be a

09:03show and there can be entertainment. He's not doing it in a tent, in a tent revival like the,

09:09you know, the post-World War II healing revivalists. He's not calling a big convention and all of these

09:14people are coming to see, can he guess the names and addresses like they do in some of the New

09:20Apostolic Reformation. But what he's doing essentially is he's there, there's a need, and he supplies the

09:26need. And he's showing that he is the supplier of the need if you read the Gospels. But what it has turned

09:31into is through the manifested Sons of God framework that most of this developed from,

09:38the idea that we are gods started to just spread throughout the movement. So they started thinking,

09:44well, if we're gods, we can do the same miracles that Jesus did. And then that developed as a

09:50foundation. Upon that foundation was built the idea that we are actually doing more miracles than God

09:57ever did. When Jesus was on earth – in fact, this is a direct quote – when Jesus was on earth,

10:04he only performed so many miracles. In my ministry – this is William Branham speaking – in my ministry,

10:09I performed so many more miracles than Jesus. So what they did, they took different passages – the

10:16one that was used for that, they used the passage where it says, greater works than this will you do.

10:21And they try to say that this implies and suggests that you are going to do nothing but miracles.

10:28But that passage is actually talking about something much different than a sign, a wonder,

10:32or a miracle. And it all comes back to what I said earlier. It's only the evil and adulterous

10:37generation that are seeking for a sign. Those who are seeking, the only thing that they're going to

10:42get is the sign of Jonah when Jesus was there.

10:44Yeah, what's the need there, right? What we really need is God himself, not what we want from him,

10:55like rubbing the genie, right? But God himself is the one we want. We want this relationship. I think

11:03that's the most powerful expression of the Holy Ghost within us, giving us that need, that urge,

11:14to seek him, to love him, makes us want to be with him. I think many grown, mature Christians often

11:24thought about how easy it would be to just leave the world and be with God. Because everyday Christian

11:32life, but everyday normal life as well, is really a struggle. Most of life is. Most of life is about

11:40death, struggle, fighting for basic needs. And even the people, you may say, yeah, but the rich don't

11:47have all those problems. No. They have the same problems or sometimes different problems,

11:53but the money doesn't saturate the things you are looking for, like real love and real truth.

12:07Yeah, that's what's missing. So I think it's very important for us Christians to give people a good

12:15first expression or a good first impression of who God is. That's our quest, if you will, as ambassadors

12:26of Christ. So we better get the message or the messenger, which is Christ, right. And don't spin narratives

12:36to please people. I just experienced this with my younger daughter in Germany. We have a very,

12:47you know, very strict school system, because it's based, still based in its original law,

12:56upon the laws that were given by Hitler and the national socialists. They thought of schools as

13:09environments where they could build up new Nazis. So the school system was a tool for them to either

13:20produce willing Nazis or to make those visible that weren't willing to fall in, to fall in step,

13:31right. And this is still the case. Today I was with my daughter for a school visit. You are legally

13:38forced to do that. And it's like going to the zoo with your daughter. There are some school specialists

13:44and you are presenting your daughter or your son to them, how well behaved she is, how she can talk,

13:52how she can read, how she can think, how she can dance, stand on one foot, etc, etc. That feels so

14:00strange. It feels wrong. It feels like you're going to the zoo and showing your daughter off to strange

14:07people that you don't like. You don't want to be there, but you are legally forced to do it.

14:12Otherwise, there are heavy consequences. And I thought to myself, isn't it strange that when we

14:23in our everyday normal life go to a job interview or go to this event, we show up in our best clothes,

14:37well-behaved, well-behaved, well-spoken, best manners. But in Christianity, when it's about God,

14:46suddenly that's irrelevant. We paint a picture of God wishing to please people. So we are showing

14:57them a God that is not compliant, what a strange word, but I don't have any different word for it,

15:03that is not compliant with our God from the Bible, with our Jesus, with the real Jesus Christ from

15:10the Bible. And that's, yeah, problematic. And I thought to myself how strange it is that we do this,

15:18that so often we count this opportunity of first impression as so important to us. But when it comes

15:28to situations where we can present the gospel and present Christ, we do it in a manner that would

15:37even – yeah, that's below that what we would do to present ourselves.

15:45Absolutely. And that's hitting on the point that I mentioned earlier. So,

15:50in the New Apostolic Reformation today, there is the concept of God's generals,

15:55which is really weird when you think about it. Because in the Bible, there is Jesus,

16:00and then there is everybody else. There is no generals over armies. There is no Joel's army

16:05concept. But that's what they're teaching. They're teaching God's generals. Branham is one of God's

16:10generals. And if you read this account and God's generals, or if you hear any of the New Apostolic

16:19Reformation prophets, apostles, they'll say Branham was a really strong force. He's part of the reason

16:25why we are what we are today. And then he went astray. So, the average listener who listens to this,

16:32who's unfamiliar with history, would say, okay, so Branham was a good man. He brought the Spirit of God.

16:38The Spirit was moving among the crowds. And that developed into what we see today, the charismatic

16:43movement. If you're a charismatic, if you're in the New Apostolic Reformation, you think,

16:48well, this is part of our lineage. And they went astray, and we can see that they went astray,

16:52because there is a destructive cult that exists today called The Message, the followers of Branham.

16:59However, as this thing was being birthed, and we're going back to the 40s, the late 1940s,

17:07whenever the Lateran movement was being birthed, this was during a time when spiritualism was very

17:13popular. It was a craze in the United States. You mentioned the circus. You had

17:18the circuses coming around. You had the different types of shows that would come in a tent, because

17:23that's the only entertainment that people had, especially in rural areas. So, this tent would

17:29come in with either circus or singing, or they had different types of speeches that would come through.

17:35Well, these ministers in the revival were competing against this. They're competing against

17:40specifically spiritualism and the circus. So, one of the things that they introduced was the idea that

17:47this little child named David Walker – they called him Little David Walker – they claimed that he had

17:53actually had a vision of heaven or was in heaven for seven minutes or something like this. So, he would

17:59give this testimony of what he saw when he was there. And people would come as though this child is

18:04their crystal ball into what heaven looks like, very much like the spiritualists. And one of the – I

18:12don't know if it was the climax or how they did it, but this kid would levitate before the crowds as

18:18though this was a Christian thing. And people – still today, I get emails asking, how did Little David

18:24levitate? The way that it worked, William Branham would come, and his attraction was he would pray for

18:30the sick. And Little David actually did the preaching. So, this tour, they called them the

18:35dynamic duo or something like this. As they're touring through cities, you have some healing of

18:41the sick, which is miracles. You have a boy who can levitate, which is a sign and a wonder. And they

18:47would advertise it exactly like this – signs, wonders, miracles – whenever these people went through.

18:54That was the early years. That wasn't the years in which people today would say Branham went astray.

19:00But if you think about what's going on there, take that exact framework of a ministry and try to

19:07make it work today. Take them out in front of a bunch of people today, and people would look at

19:13this and scratch their head and say, what on earth is this mess, and why are you calling it Christianity?

19:18Darrell Bock Yeah.

19:19Darrell Bock And new converts. If you were a person who was curious about Christianity, had no idea what it

19:26was coming to this thing, and saw a kid levitating, you're going to think, oh my gosh, these people are

19:32a bunch of nuts. But that's how the movement started, with a bunch of nuts. And I go back and forth on my

19:40opinion on this. I do believe that there's a lot of people back during that day that were just naive, who

19:47really believed this kind of thing could happen, and so they just accepted it. I also wonder how

19:53much of it was really accepted and how much of it was simply permitted. They show up, yeah, this is

19:59kind of weird, but this is our only form of entertainment. Darrell Bock What a great distinction

20:04you made. Darrell Bock Yeah. Darrell Bock

20:05We're not going to speak out against it. I think it was actually the latter. I think people showed up,

20:10and they're like, you know, this is not of God. This is a bunch of nonsense. But they are preaching

20:16the gospel, and this is the traveling entertainment for our city. Let's go hear it. Darrell Bock

20:21And there you go. I think by those examples, you exactly see

20:24that those spiritual leaders outright understood that impressing people, appealing to people is

20:35more important than a messenger self. So they would change it. They understood that very well. And

20:44nowadays, we would laugh about that because it sounds ridiculous. But the fact is,

20:49there was a huge movement after that. People sticking to those persons, to those leaders.

21:01You will find a story or this tale in various variations about how in the animalistic kingdom,

21:12there are some animals or in dragon stories, dragon tales.

21:17Darrell Bock There's like the hero,

21:20and he's out there to find a dragon egg. Because if the egg cracks open, and the little dragon sees

21:29the knight or the hero, he will be bonded forever to the first face he sees.

21:38Darrell Bock The underlying story is the first impression counts. So the story you just told

21:47about Branham and his, yeah, his narratives, his manipulation, the way he did it, he changed the

21:56message, of course, painted a picture of God, and that is not coherent with the God from the Bible.

22:04Darrell Bock That should be a warning to us because it shows how those first impressions really

22:12count and how people stick to it, maybe for life. And that's problematic. That should be a warning to us,

22:22but also an encouragement, because we see that's a negative example. But we can be a good example in

22:33telling the Gospel outright, telling it honest, straight, and leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.

22:40Darrell Bock We are just the messengers. We are just the ambassadors, really. And our job is to

22:47to express the Gospel, express who God is in an honest, outright way, and the rest is up to the

22:55Holy Spirit and to God. Darrell Bock I mentioned my opinion was

22:59the second one, that there were people who just really didn't believe it. My opinion is usually

23:04based on something that I have found in my research. And this really gets interesting when you think

23:10about it. I have a lot of Pentecostal friends. Well, after leaving the cult, I have fewer than I had

23:15before. Darrell Bock Of course. Darrell Bock

23:17But I do have Pentecostal friends, some of which were not ever in Branhamism. And there's this weird

23:25thing in Pentecostalism. You find the groups that are in favor of this, they believe that Branham was a

23:32true prophet of God, but like New Apostolic Reformation, he went astray. They're usually within the

23:37apostolic network of the, you know, the New Apostolic Reformation. You have the other ones

23:43who say, no, this was ridiculous. This man had a levitating boy in his stage act, and that's not of

23:48God. And United Pentecostal Church, for example, they would look at this and frown on this. This was

23:55ridiculous, right? However, when you go back in history and you understand what was going on,

24:02Branham was in a movement – he was actually in a cult before any of this happened.

24:07Darrell Bock The cult was led by the second in command of the most notorious

24:13domestic terrorist organization in the United States, the Klan. Led by the Klan trying to

24:19infiltrate the Pentecostal groups in Indiana because they were led by G.T. Haywood, a black minister.

24:26And Haywood had died, but this was a very mixed-race religion. And lo and behold,

24:33the second in command of the Klan comes to Indiana. Well, this is happening during the time when all of

24:40these various Pentecostal groups were trying to establish a way in which they could organize and

24:47create a cohesive unit. So the talks were in place to create basically what became the United Pentecostal

24:54Church. Well, as the UPC is being formed, and they're being formed in St. Louis, one of the

25:00Pentecostal historians who has worked with me in the past, he noticed the article of the Levitating

25:08Boy, the biggest advertisement they have. He says, John, this is held in the Kiel Auditorium in St.

25:14Louis. Do you realize the significance of this? And I said, no, it's just an auditorium, right? And he

25:19said, no, this is the place. If you were Pentecostal, if you were in the UPC, this is where you held all

25:26of your conventions, every single one of them. And then he started going through the names that

25:30I'm giving him. And he says, this is a United Pentecostal minister. This is one who is attempting

25:36to join. And he's going down through this list, right? So what this tells me, yes, they didn't

25:43accept Branham, but there was a period of time where they did. And there's a period of time when they

25:48overlooked this thing that was happening where there's literally a levitating boy as part of

25:54the Christian Stage Act. So what I understand from all of this, the men back then, men and women who

26:02were part of this movement, just for my own understanding, they did it because they saw

26:09the gain for them for themselves. They wanted to use Branham and his movement and the Branham

26:17experience, the levitating boy for their own gain, because they wanted access to those groups. Yeah.

26:24And in the end, those paying believers, right?

26:27Paul Jay So I can't, as a historian, you can't say intent. You don't understand,

26:32because nobody's alive. I can't go ask them, hey, did you choose Branham because he's your mascot?

26:37Paul Jay But what I can see is that he's part of

26:40their biggest showmanship at the Keele Auditorium. But more to the point, what it tells me is that

26:48in that era, people were aware that there is entertainment, it is fake entertainment,

26:55it is not of God, but it is attracting the crowds. And they advertised it in that way. It's attracting

27:01the crowds. And then they separated that mentally from the ministry. They would say,

27:08yes, this is entertainment. There's no way that this is real. This kid can't levitate.

27:13Paul Jay But this kid is leading other

27:17children to the gospel. Whether his story is true or not, he's leading children to the gospel.

27:23Paul Jay Then Branham comes and he preaches a little sermon, which if you go back and you study

27:29those sermons, they're far from the gospel. But they ignored even that so that they could get to

27:36the sign, wonder, miracle, basically the miracle at the end. If you can build up the people's faith to

27:42a certain climax of faith, then they will believe in the healing, and in doing so, they will be healed.

27:48Paul Jay Then God moves in the ministry. So what I'm trying to say in all of this,

27:54it wasn't that the levitating boy was the focus. It wasn't that the gospel was the focus.

28:00And it wasn't even so much that the miracle was the focus. It was the atmosphere of excitement that

28:07brought them into what they would consider to be a greater faith. In other words, greater faith was

28:14the focus. The question that you have to ask if your greater faith is built on a boy who's pretending to

28:20levitate, which we know is not real, a man, William Branham, who's claiming that he knows the names and

28:26addresses that you write on your prayer cards, and you give the usher when you walk in the door,

28:31which everybody knows this is not real. And you go through all of these elements of faults,

28:37things that have nothing to do with the gospel, and they all know that all of those aren't real.

28:41Paul Jay But in the end, it's the end justifies the means. It did elevate their faith. So we're

28:46going to allow it, we're going to accept it. Because if you can boost their faith,

28:50now we can come in, and it's like an open field for a minister to harvest.

28:54Paul Jay Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started,

28:59or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic,

29:04and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more

29:10on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

29:16On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,

29:21Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,

29:27audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation

29:33on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause,

29:39you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always,

29:44be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

29:49On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

29:54When people stay in that environment, because they understand faith as some kind of struggle,

30:05you have to go through, because in the end, there's the reward of, you get rewarded because

30:12you were faithful. So like there's a certain amount of faith that you need to have, or a certain amount of

30:19days that you have to be in the faith, and then you will be healed. Then you will get the money.

30:26Then your struggle will end. And again, the first impression,

30:34when I encountered God before I was a Christian, I think that was the moment when,

30:41yeah, when God gave me the Holy Spirit, let's say like this. It's hard for me to describe, but it was a

30:53total normal day. I have read some books. One of those was a book from Paulo Coelho. He's an esoteric

31:05writer. And in one of his biographic stories, he would warn that the Santiago de la Compostela,

31:18it's a famous, it's a famous Catholic road. I don't, excuse my language there. He was wandering around

31:28and meeting a hermit in the mountains, and they were talking about love. And they did their classic

31:35examples like philia, agape, eros. And in my head, I was doing like, like a checklist. Eros, ah, okay,

31:44I know that concept. Philia, ah, okay, I know this concept. And then they started to describe agape as this,

31:53as a blue ball that encapsules the world and the people, everyone is connected. Yes, painting this

32:05huge picture of all-encompassing love, all-connecting love. And I thought to myself, like doing a little

32:14prayer, like, God, if you are real, I want to experience that kind of love. And by that time,

32:21I was still a rocker, a jazzer. I was a drug addict. I was a worldly person, as much as someone can be.

32:33And as the days went by, I went to Dortmund. I lived in Karmen. That's like 60 miles from,

32:42not 60 miles, like 20 miles from Dortmund. Dortmund is one of the main cities in Western Germany. And I

32:51traveled there by train to go for shopping for some new t-shirts or whatever. And as I went back,

32:59I was alone for myself at the train station. And suddenly, I can't describe it. It was really like,

33:08my eyes were open for the first time in my life. My thoughts were just like, God is real. He is real.

33:21He sees you. He is there. He hears you. And I felt a love. I can't describe until today. But it was so,

33:36I was never the same person again, after that moment. I immediately stopped taking drugs. And I mean,

33:46we were regularly, I was a daily pot smoker, like wheat, daily, like other people smoking cigarettes.

33:54Yeah, we were pot smokers, taking other chemical drugs, like amphetamines over the weekends.

34:03I never took drugs again, since that day. Never, never a single time. And of course, that

34:10brought me out of my environment and my circle of friends. Because the one component that we shared

34:19that was most important was, of course, the drugs. And when I stopped taking drugs, I couldn't be part

34:26of it anymore. Everyone around me was taking drugs, constantly stoned, smoking pot. I couldn't be there

34:33anymore. I couldn't partake anymore. I couldn't do music with them anymore. Yeah. And yeah, another

34:42interesting part of it is, we grew up in Carmen. And at the main center of Carmen, there's a big skateboard,

34:52excuse me, but it's a really interesting part of the story. I have to tell it. When we were like 14, 15,

34:59every one of us teens was known to each other. Like some were your relative close friends. Others were

35:08a bit more far apart, but everyone knew each other. We were taking drugs, riding our skateboards,

35:16doing breakdance, whatever. That was my childhood there in Carmen. And after a time when we

35:24we were around 18 or 19 started to work, we grew apart and never saw each other again.

35:34I encountered God when I was around 23 or 24. So by that time, I haven't met those guys I grew up with for

35:44three, four or five years. Interestingly, after I encountered God at the train station, I met two guys

35:55again, Michael and Dennis. And both, totally apart from each other, came to faith. But they were longer in the

36:09faith than I. And they brought me into the church, which was sadly a charismatic church. But nevertheless,

36:16they shared the gospel with me. I accepted Christ as my king and my savior. And I started my journey.

36:25Yeah, that's part of my testimony. But here's the point I want to make. The encounter I described to you is

36:34hardly ever a part of me sharing the gospel. I've told this story maybe two or three times in my life.

36:42It's unexplainable even to me as I'm explaining it. And it's not the gospel. But I experienced others

36:54sharing those stories as the gospel. And as the churches in my environment grew, the charismatic

37:03churches grew, those churches were filled up with people not searching for God or looking for God,

37:11looking for that relationship to him, wanting to serve him. But it was more like they were coming

37:20for the signs and the wonders, the good feeling, the good life in the church, in the community.

37:31And those narratives took over the entire language they were speaking. It wasn't about the gospel anymore.

37:40It was about sharing superficial stories of how they experienced God. Today I was at the shopping mall

37:47and then I was like, ah, God was telling me. Stuff like that. And that's not the gospel. And that's problematic.

37:54So I was, I don't know why, but I was aware of that. And I think I took the right

38:02road at a certain point to stick to what I thought were mature, very well-educated Christians.

38:13I must have just read the Bible as it is, plain and simple. So that experience was never part of

38:24my first impression, me telling the gospel because it isn't the gospel. And if we make our personal

38:33experience or our own feelings, then the gospel is about us and not about Jesus and therefore not about

38:40God. So I was actually hoping that you went where you did. You and I didn't compare notes before we

38:46spoke, but this was a point I wanted to make. There is an experience that people have that is

38:52a true experience. There are experiences, many, plural, that the movement tries to say are true

39:00experiences. And in the grand scheme of things, even if they are real, they mean nothing. When you're

39:06comparing what you described to a kid levitating, the kid levitating actually means nothing. It's

39:12yeah, it's trivial, right? Yeah.

39:14Kevin Patton Think of the theology that is built

39:17because of the false thing. And I use the word false. I'm going to change that word.

39:22Think of the theology that's built because of the thing that is questionable. I'll say it like that.

39:27That theology progressed into things and was built upon things such as positive confession.

39:33Kevin Patton So what is positive confession? It is lying within yourself an actual lie that you're

39:40healed when you're not yet healed. And these faith healers would do it. They would say,

39:44you must believe if you don't believe that thing that you're healed of will come back to you when

39:49you go home. So these people would go home sick, telling everybody I'm healed. I was in this wonderful

39:55meeting. I got healed. And it goes back to the point I tried to make earlier. It's all about the hype.

40:01If you have a lot of people who say, yes, I went and I was prayed for and I was not healed.

40:06Well, then everybody starts to question, well, wait a minute. He told me I was healed. Am I not healed?

40:11And everybody starts to doubt. And it doesn't build this faith that they're trying to promote.

40:17Darrell Bock And the psychological pressure that

40:23grows within the group itself because of the narrative that's above everything, right?

40:28Darrell Bock Exactly. So you're basing a theology,

40:32which is literally a theology built upon a lie.

40:35Darrell Bock Yes.

40:36Darrell Bock Whether you're healed or not – I'm not even

40:39questioning that. My father was healed – my father had his healing in one of these ministries. So he

40:46went to be prayed for by William Branham. He goes home and healed. The family will say that William Branham

40:53healed him. I will say no. If there was a true healing, it came from God.

40:57Darrell Bock Yeah. Darrell Bock But the problem is,

41:00that example is exactly what I'm trying to say here. When you're in that type of environment,

41:06when you're trying to focus on a miracle, there's always a human element to that miracle. It was a

41:12minister on the platform. He healed me. So therefore, he must be the one. He must be filled with God.

41:18He must have divine power. And think of the way that this began to spread. You had all of these

41:24so-called divine healers. The average person who's sitting in their home, who's suffering,

41:31has the same access to God in their home than they do right there in all of this meeting, right?

41:37Darrell Bock Yes. Darrell Bock So there's not even a need to

41:38to go in the first place unless you believe that this healer has something that you do not have or

41:44some access to God that you do not have. So this created a movement where people were dependent

41:50on humans. And that dependency, when given to the wrong hands, especially when somebody has

41:56narcissistic personality disorder, or if they have the mind of somebody who wants to be authoritarian

42:03over other people, well, now you've opened the door for the wolves to enter the sheepfold.

42:09So for me, if you have this so-called gospel that's based off of these so-called signs, wonders,

42:15miracles, and you're ignoring what the Bible says is the gospel, what happens is you open the door for

42:22people who don't even know the gospel to come preach to you. David You were just recently a guest on

42:29the Messed Up Church podcast. Let's take those. His circle, for example, Joni Takeda, Justin Peters,

42:38they don't care if they are healed. Joni Takeda would even say that her accident falling off the

42:44horse, being plagiarized for her whole life was the best thing ever happened to her because that was

42:55the only thing that would overcome her pride. How strong is such a statement? And even for me,

43:03I'm sorry, a levitating boy or a Bill Johnson with his gold glitter coming from the clouds in his plane,

43:11that wouldn't have prevented me from taking drugs. I'm a kid from the streets. I needed that miracle.

43:20That isn't to say that everyone needs the same experience. No, not at all. I have three children

43:28and my children. I think that's some very important thing I've learned over the years.

43:35And again, if you would ask me what are the three most important topics in your 10 to 15 years of

43:44Christianity, I would say it's language, it's, what's the word for it, your congregation,

43:53finding the right congregation, and the difference between, quote unquote, born again Christians like me,

44:03who were like pulled out of the deepest darkness you can imagine. And Christians like my children,

44:13growing up in a Christian environment, a loving Christian family, their struggle with faith and

44:23holding on to God is totally different than mine. They don't need that miracle because they are blessed

44:30through and through from the very beginning. Their phrygian is full. They have a loving parents,

44:37really loving parents, not pretending just for the kids, right? Stuff like that. That's a blessing

44:43already, you could say. And you can even take a historical perspective, like the second, third, fifth generation of

44:53the Israelites, the Israelites coming out of Egypt, haven't experienced God. They never needed to. They

45:02were asked, asked to hold, hold the line, hold fast to the testimony of their fathers and to God's word.

45:17That was their quest. And that's the same quest for my children again. They don't need the same

45:25faith experience as I had. I needed that experience because I was deep into darkness.

45:35And I needed something that was more than a narrative or a good story.

45:40Exactly. And it creates this false dichotomy, right? So the cults train you in this black or

45:47white mindset. It's either true or false, on or off, me or the world. They want you to create

45:54a false dichotomy so that they can say that they have the answer, the others do not. And where it

45:59ends up with, you see it in the comment feeds, people will just hound me trying to find out,

46:05are you cessationist or are you continuous? You must be one or the other. I have come to the

46:10conclusion after all of this… No, you don't have to.

46:12Dr. Justin Marchegiani No, there's a middle ground,

46:14right? You're creating a false dichotomy. I've come to the conclusion that those two themselves,

46:20people are starting to worship this. You are worshiping the God of cessationism or continuism.

46:25If you do not believe in miracles, how can you believe the gospels? That's really how this comes down to.

46:32But if you try to believe that the miracles are important enough that you will condemn another

46:38Christian for, you are in error of Jesus when he says that a evil and adulterous generation seeks

46:45after a sign. That's really where it comes down to for me. So I don't purposefully follow the middle

46:52ground, but I see that there is a middle ground. And for me, the entire thing is irrelevant because of

46:59exactly what you just said, those things aren't important. Like you mentioned the lady that's on

47:05the messed up church. I've not listened to her podcast, but I have the same exact thing happening with

47:12me. I'm diabetic. And if I was in that Branham cult, my number one priority would be to be healed of

47:20this thing. And so my mindset, I remember this. I remember people who went through this.

47:24They would go constantly time after time to the altar. Can I be healed? Can I be healed?

47:30And then they would leave and go home. God has healed me. God has healed me. Many of them would

47:35go off of their medications and they would actually get worse. Some of them might die.

47:39I know people who have died. So that false dichotomy, one or the other, on or off,

47:46it's totally irrelevant because what's happening in my body has nothing to do with whether or not I've

47:52read the gospel and believe the gospel. But you become so obsessed with it as a human because you're

48:01seeking after that sign. You're seeking after that miracle.

48:03But you should seek God. I mean, that's my main drive, my main energy every single day. Really,

48:12it is not because I am forcing myself to, but because I have no other choice. Like, I'm doing my

48:21own inner dialogue with myself before God every single day, asking myself into question every single day

48:30before God. Here's an interesting example, however, for the false dilemma between cessationism and

48:42the questions are miracles still for today. Most people will think of John MacArthur, for example,

48:51as a very unloving, harsh person. He doesn't believe in the Holy Spirit and the wonders,

48:57etc., etc. The truth is, he did the right thing. His entire preaching was based on the Bible. The first

49:07impression you will always get, no matter which message you are attending to from John MacArthur,

49:14you will receive the gospel in straight terms from him. But below that, I would say, just for simple

49:26terms, I would call it outward encounter with John MacArthur. It goes so much deeper. I had certain

49:33group calls with fellow students from the Master's Seminary. And the stories from some of those

49:43students, like one Russian guy, one guy from Russia was able to study at the Master's Seminary. And when

49:51those guys shared their testimonies on how they were able to study there, I mean, the cost,

49:58the cost of studying, the cost of living, how they traveled from Russia, or from Romania, or from

50:05China, just to study here, there in the US at the Master's Seminary. Unbelievable, wonderful testimonies

50:14of how God provides for those who seek Him and His Word. No signs of cessationism there. True, authentic

50:24human beings who are seeking for God, and God will find a way for you to hold fast to that testimony,

50:35hold fast to His Word.

50:37Darrell Bock I'm really glad that you brought up John

50:39MacArthur, because I had forgotten this in what I said previously. The other thing that this leads to

50:45is hero worship. And interestingly, there was a podcast when I mentioned something, and I don't

50:53recall what, but I mentioned something that John MacArthur said, which I believe was true. What he said

50:58was true. I got this instant backlash. You're in the cult following of John MacArthur. I don't know if you

51:04saw it in the comment feeds. They pound you because they think you must have a hero figure in your

51:10worship. That's the way that this cult mentality has trained people to believe. The irony of all of

51:16this is I actually don't like to listen to John MacArthur. When he was alive, I never did. I have read

51:23some of his statements. I've actually listened to a couple of his sermons. I just personally, I wasn't a

51:30fan of it. And not because anything that I really strongly disagreed. He just didn't connect with me

51:36like some of the other people did. So I'm not a MacArthur fan at all. But when he says something

51:41that's true, and it's something that supports what I believe is true, I use it, especially if it's a

51:47historical fact, because I'm documenting history, in the same way that I have said things that I'm

51:55certain. I gave an example that Stephen King had written in a book one time. And it doesn't mean

52:02that I'm in the cult following of Stephen King or in the Stephen King religion. But if he says

52:06something that's true or historically accurate, it's a quote. It's a quote that you can use, right?

52:12So the problem that I see, even the fact that I mentioned Stephen King, you'll find,

52:18trust me, it'll happen in the comments. People are going to say,

52:20John is following Stephen King. He's in the Stephen King cult.

52:24Darrell Bock Reading demonic books.

52:25Darrell Bock Reading demonic books, which

52:27I will say the 11, 22, 63 greatest book ever. It is a good book.

52:32Darrell Bock Yeah.

52:33Darrell Bock All of that aside, it creates this mindset of

52:36hero worship where you either must like somebody or you must dislike somebody. And I'm not like this.

52:44You can't tell me who I must like, and you also can't tell me who I must dislike. I do like Stephen King

52:50books. I do like some things John MacArthur said. Do I like everything that Stephen King wrote or said?

52:55Absolutely not. Same with John MacArthur. But the point I'm trying to make is the focus has been

53:02distracted. They look at these hero figures. If you want to say something is all right or all wrong,

53:08why don't you look towards the Bible? If you're Christian, that's the Christian book.

53:12Stephen King book is not the Christian book. John MacArthur is not the Christian book. He's a

53:17person who is pointing you to it. Read what he's pointing you to.

53:20Darrell Bock Yeah, that's true. I experience the same, especially about John MacArthur because he's

53:29in Germany, he's perceived as some strange kind of hardcore Calvinist, like hyper-Calvinism, stuff like

53:38that, which is untrue. But because of those superficial views of him, I don't mention him.

53:52Yeah, he's a very controverse guy in how people, yeah, he really,

54:06er trennt die Spreu vom Weizen, the chaff from the wheat, and how people either like him or dislike

54:13him just because of his personality.

54:15Darrell Bock It's funny. John, you mentioned Calvinism. I had a

54:19guest on one time who, I guess they were Calvinist. They had, they said some things that really leaned

54:24Calvinist. And the same exact thing happened. John must be a Calvinist because he had a Calvinist

54:29guest on his podcast.

54:31Darrell Bock Ah, yes.

54:32Darrell Bock And the funny part is for me, like, I actually,

54:35there's very few things that I'll say I'm adamantly not. And that's one that I will say,

54:39I am adamantly not this. I do not. I was in a cult, and there are so many similarities between a

54:45cult mindset and what I see in Calvinism. I'm not saying that all Calvinists are cult, but I have

54:51experienced situations that I can say were very cultish in a church that promoted Calvinism.

54:57Darrell Bock Yeah. Isn't that called guilt by association?

55:00John, exactly. John, in Germany, we call it

55:03Kontaktschuld, contact guilt. Like, just how you described it. It's so funny. I mean, it works

55:13very often in a political environment, but if you're in any way a Christian, a reader,

55:21a somewhat humane person, don't fall for it.

55:25Darrell Bock Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been

55:28incredible fun. I was hoping that you had a lot to say, and apparently you do, so this is a thought

55:34that we have some common interests. But I hope the listeners find something useful, and hopefully

55:40they don't fall into this false dichotomy that we've mentioned, because if you're seeking after

55:45a sign, you're falling into that error. So thank you so much for doing this.

55:49Darrell Bock Thank you, too.

55:50Darrell Bock Well, if you've enjoyed our show and

55:51you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branum.org

55:56and Sanctum Artifact. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation,

56:01you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

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When Miracles Replace Jesus: Rethinking Charismania | Christian Thomaßen | Episode 484

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