- 2 days ago
John and Chino discuss what makes a true pastor versus a false one, tracing how cult movements like Hobart Freeman’s Faith Assembly distorted the gospel into a “health and wealth” message. They examine how trauma from authoritarian churches shapes what people look for when finding a new congregation—and why “signs of a healthy church” lists can be dangerous when written by unhealthy leaders. Through personal stories and biblical insight, they break down why empathy, sound teaching, and genuine care matter more than charisma, claimed miracles, or titles like “apostle” and “prophet.”
______________________
00:00 Introduction
01:03 Hero Worship and the Misplaced Reverence of Leaders
03:11 What to Look for in a Minister
06:27 The Question of a “Call” to Ministry
07:15 The Case of Hobart Freeman’s Ministers
12:45 The Problem with “Audible Voice” Claims
14:02 Choosing a Church That Meets Real Needs
17:48 Knowing and Teaching God’s Word
19:26 Cherry-Picking Scripture and Prosperity Preaching
22:13 Hobart Freeman’s “Abundant Life” Doctrine
27:29 When Ministers Replace Scripture with Storytelling
28:06 Healing from Cult Trauma and Church Selection
31:02 Finding a Church Culture That Fits You
32:12 The Prosperity Gospel’s Real Roots
40:14 A “Different Gospel” and Why It’s Dangerous
42:17 Three Qualities of a Good Minister
43:36 Does He Care About You? The True Test of a Shepherd
46:09 False Shepherds and Self-Worship
48:11 Why Dual-Vocation Ministers Are More Grounded
54:05 Old Covenant Tithing and Modern Exploitation
55:00 John 10 and the Meaning of the Good Shepherd
58:10 How False Shepherds Harm the Flock
1:03:02 Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
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– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
______________________
00:00 Introduction
01:03 Hero Worship and the Misplaced Reverence of Leaders
03:11 What to Look for in a Minister
06:27 The Question of a “Call” to Ministry
07:15 The Case of Hobart Freeman’s Ministers
12:45 The Problem with “Audible Voice” Claims
14:02 Choosing a Church That Meets Real Needs
17:48 Knowing and Teaching God’s Word
19:26 Cherry-Picking Scripture and Prosperity Preaching
22:13 Hobart Freeman’s “Abundant Life” Doctrine
27:29 When Ministers Replace Scripture with Storytelling
28:06 Healing from Cult Trauma and Church Selection
31:02 Finding a Church Culture That Fits You
32:12 The Prosperity Gospel’s Real Roots
40:14 A “Different Gospel” and Why It’s Dangerous
42:17 Three Qualities of a Good Minister
43:36 Does He Care About You? The True Test of a Shepherd
46:09 False Shepherds and Self-Worship
48:11 Why Dual-Vocation Ministers Are More Grounded
54:05 Old Covenant Tithing and Modern Exploitation
55:00 John 10 and the Meaning of the Good Shepherd
58:10 How False Shepherds Harm the Flock
1:03:02 Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:37I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Chino Ross,
00:00:48pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Chino D. Ross YouTube
00:00:52channel.
00:00:54Chino, I don't normally do this, but I'm going to start by offending half of the audience,
00:00:58and I may offend you in the process.
00:01:02I had this conversation with somebody else recently, and we were talking about just the
00:01:08way in which the hero worship has spread throughout the movement, and people don't realize the
00:01:13significance of the hero worship or how widespread it is.
00:01:17Some of them can recognize these super apostles or being worshiped, but they don't recognize
00:01:23that often it comes down to the pastor in their own church that has a higher esteem and higher
00:01:30respect than any man should be given in some cases.
00:01:34And I made the comment, you know, we should strive to be better people, and there are people
00:01:40who make mistakes, there are people who are human and they're still learning, and I made
00:01:44the comment, well, even the Apostle Paul, we should strive to be better than the Apostle
00:01:50Paul.
00:01:50And I'm saying that knowing that there are people who are just going to be offended because
00:01:55they have worshiped the Apostle Paul in their way of their teaching, but the Apostle Paul
00:02:01was a human.
00:02:03And if you really understand that there's, in the Christian religion, there's Jesus and
00:02:09then there's everybody else.
00:02:10Apostle, prophet, pastor, take the fivefold out.
00:02:13I mean, I understand the Ephesians passage, but if you understand that there's Jesus in
00:02:19everybody else, and everybody else has a job to do, the Christian religion takes a completely
00:02:24different shape than in most churches, and that's cult or mainstream.
00:02:30So you brought up the idea, and I'm all for it.
00:02:33I probably have way too much to say, but this idea that choosing a good pastor, how do you
00:02:39choose one?
00:02:39And I've had people contact me, and some of them will say, well, where do I find the
00:02:44right pastor?
00:02:45They always want to go, where do I find the right guy?
00:02:49I don't want the false guy, right?
00:02:51And it's a lot different than I think people understand after having been in one of these
00:02:57movements.
00:02:58You are looking for something that really doesn't exist whenever you ask that question.
00:03:03So I won't go too far with it.
00:03:05We'll talk through it.
00:03:06But this is a wonderful topic to get into.
00:03:09Well, let's see if we can help people out with that, John.
00:03:13What would you look for in a minister?
00:03:16If you're going to the grocery store, you have a list.
00:03:21You have a shopping list.
00:03:22And as you find the items that you need, you check them off.
00:03:26So what would you require of your—and let's stay on this, really, your local pastor or your
00:03:33teacher or your minister?
00:03:36I mean, this is what we do with everything else in life.
00:03:38Whenever we're about to select a car, we don't let the car select itself for us.
00:03:46And we don't let the car tell us, you should buy me.
00:03:49I'm the best car on the whole lot.
00:03:51You know, we have our own opinion on what we're looking for in a car, what we're looking for in a
00:03:54home, what we're looking for in a mate.
00:03:56So why should it be any different with a minister?
00:04:00But this is why—this is where people fall into trouble, fall into difficulty.
00:04:08So I've got my—I've had my own little informal questionnaire, and I have questioned some
00:04:14people.
00:04:14And I've often thought about it myself, and I am a minister, but I have attended other
00:04:19churches, and I've often thought if I wasn't a minister, where would I attend, and to whom
00:04:26would I listen?
00:04:27And I'm sure you've gone through these same steps, John.
00:04:30I mean, you're a person out there in the world.
00:04:32You would like to find a church.
00:04:34You would like to find a minister that you have a reasonable level of confidence in.
00:04:40And I think this is really where we should focus, that you're not going to find an inerrant,
00:04:48infallible person.
00:04:49As you just said, there is Jesus, and then there is the ground is level at the foot of
00:04:55the cross.
00:04:56We hear that phrase a lot, that the ground is level at the foot of the cross.
00:04:59But when it comes to apostles and prophets and people who think more highly of themselves
00:05:05than they should, we find out there are actually little mounds and little hills in front
00:05:09of the cross upon which these men stand.
00:05:12But it's not supposed to be that way.
00:05:14So being a reasonable human being, what would you look for in your local minister?
00:05:22And so, as I said, I've had a small test questionnaire asking people, what would you look for?
00:05:30And so you could probably come up with a lot of things, but I have narrowed them down in
00:05:37my question and answer with others to about three things.
00:05:41So the first thing that you would probably look for in a minister, in a pastor, which
00:05:51would mean also what you're looking for, hopefully, in a church, because that minister is a pretty
00:05:58important part of the church.
00:06:01Now, I realize people look for churches for other reasons, like do they have a place where
00:06:05they'll babysit my kids or do they have a youth group for my teenagers?
00:06:11But at the end of the day, the minister, ministers, plural, the elders, the pastor, the teachers
00:06:17are pretty important in that local group.
00:06:20So the first thing would be a call.
00:06:27Surprisingly, it's important if this minister feels that he does have a call to do this.
00:06:38It's interesting, a lot of them don't even care about, have never thought about where
00:06:45they have a call.
00:06:46They're just looking for a way to make a buck or looking for a way to become important or
00:06:51whatever.
00:06:52But it's very important for that minister to actually have been called to do what he's doing.
00:06:59We've often heard in sermons this worn out phrase that some were called and some were sent
00:07:06and some just packed up and went.
00:07:09And that's often what you'll find.
00:07:11And so I remember, John, in the interview you did with a woman named Jen Johnson, who
00:07:18came from a satellite group of Faith Assembly and Hobart Freeman up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
00:07:25There were actually two groups up there.
00:07:27There was one that was pastored by a man named Gary Eide, who died a number of years ago.
00:07:33From what I understand, you know, died with a lot of medical and health problems because
00:07:38he did continue to follow Dr. Freeman's teaching to the end and to the letter and would not
00:07:44seek any medical help.
00:07:46But there was another group up there that was pastored by a man named Harvey.
00:07:52I didn't know anything about this group until I was able to talk with Jen Johnson.
00:07:56And that was the group she was born into and raised into.
00:08:00And so I asked her in some of my conversations, I said, well, I'm sure since there were two
00:08:07Faith Assembly satellite groups up in Milwaukee that you guys probably got together and, you
00:08:13know, shared meals and shared meetings and travel together and, you know, shut down your
00:08:17meeting to go to their meeting and vice versa.
00:08:20And you know what?
00:08:20She said, no, she said, we didn't do that.
00:08:23We didn't really know much about the other group and we didn't have any fellowship with
00:08:29the other group and that's unusual for a Faith Assembly satellite group.
00:08:33But the reason, the reason why they didn't have fellowship is because their pastor, Harvey,
00:08:42felt that the only way you can be a Christian pastor is you have to have heard the audible
00:08:50voice of God calling you to the ministry.
00:08:54Well, I've not heard of that in other Faith Assembly circles.
00:08:57That was a new one for me.
00:09:00So here you have somebody who is following the faith ministry and message of Hobart Freeman,
00:09:06but he has his own little twist to it.
00:09:09And his own little twist was, I know I'm a minister because I heard the audible voice
00:09:15of God calling me to the ministry.
00:09:18And I think I've mentioned this before.
00:09:21I doubt that happened.
00:09:22When you look at the man's ministry, when you listen to what Jen Johnson said about her
00:09:28experience in the church, you know, I don't think it was a valid Christian group at all.
00:09:32So I would doubt the call.
00:09:34It's interesting that Hobart Freeman himself never really described, said anything about,
00:09:41told any stories about his call.
00:09:44He always told, I got saved on the road home from a nightclub in 1952.
00:09:48But he never said that I can remember any kind of details about how he was called into the
00:09:57ministry.
00:09:58And when I look at the ministers under Freeman, the ones that I would call the Faith Assembly
00:10:05underlings, I know enough about enough of them.
00:10:10And I won't say this is true of all of them.
00:10:12I'm sure there are exceptions and I'm sure there were, I hope there were a few that were
00:10:17genuine and good and valid.
00:10:21But I think a lot of them just saw a way to earn a buck.
00:10:24I mean, this was, there was money to be made.
00:10:26When they saw what Hobart was driving, his Cadillacs and Lincolns all the time, always talking
00:10:32about, I don't need to take up offerings and we don't take up offerings and I don't need
00:10:37your money because God abundantly supplies all my needs.
00:10:41And they saw that he had a big income.
00:10:43And then when they looked at some of those other ministers that go back to early days,
00:10:49Jeff Barnett, Bruce Kinsey, Steve Hill, they had a lot of money as well.
00:10:56And so the other ministers that were coming up, the people like Jerry Reeder and Jim Mansfield
00:11:02and Jim Oswald and all these other guys that were coming on the scene, I think, in my opinion,
00:11:10they saw an easy way to earn a buck without having to have a job.
00:11:15And so these guys would teach once a week or twice a week and be able to just stay at home
00:11:21the rest of the time.
00:11:22And I do know of what I'm speaking, although I won't share any details about that right now.
00:11:27I think whenever we get to talking about some of the satellite ministers, then I can share
00:11:32stories of the people, for instance, with Jim Mansfield, who lived in the same duplex.
00:11:38So lived, there was only a door dividing one house from the other.
00:11:43And one woman has told me, so this is, she was a grown married woman at home while her husband
00:11:50is at work, Jim is at home next door, but only a doorway is dividing them because it's
00:11:57a duplex.
00:11:58And he's standing on the other side of the door talking to this woman all during the day.
00:12:03So I do have stories.
00:12:05I do know what was going on.
00:12:07And I just think that the underlings, they were wanting to copy Hobart.
00:12:11Let's see if we can live this abundant life.
00:12:14But I really think for many of them, it was, it was an easy job.
00:12:20It really was because you just have to teach what?
00:12:23Just a regurgitated message that you got from Hobart.
00:12:27And all you got to do is once a week and guess what?
00:12:30You get to stay home the rest of the time.
00:12:32So I think the call is important, but I would be, I would be leery of some of the calls of
00:12:41these men because I just think it's probably too subjective.
00:12:45Well, in my opinion, my number one criteria for a minister after you left a cult is one
00:12:51who says that they have heard an audible voice from God calling them to the ministry.
00:12:56That's the one you don't go to.
00:12:58But let me, let me take that a step further.
00:13:01So people have been falsely trained and manipulated into believing this weird miracle, supernatural
00:13:09thing that was taught to the extent that if a person claims this and you believe it, I've
00:13:16had the audible voice of God, you must come to my ministry.
00:13:20They think they actually have to, but say it is real.
00:13:23Say that the person actually did hear an audible voice from God.
00:13:27God spoke from the heavens and said, you, my child, will be my minister.
00:13:31It still doesn't mean that you have to go to their church.
00:13:34Does that, does that mean that all other churches are excluded from God's ministry?
00:13:39It really doesn't.
00:13:40But people get in that mindset and it's just the wrong mindset.
00:13:44I, I know that you bring it to a theological, from a theological viewpoint.
00:13:49I bring it down to a practical viewpoint.
00:13:52If you're going to take your car to the shop.
00:13:55In fact, we took my son's car to the shop this morning.
00:13:57His struts, when he turned the wheel, he's going, it sounded like the, uh, I can't remember
00:14:04the, what that car was in the Beverly Hillbillies, but it sounded exactly like that one.
00:14:08Right.
00:14:09And, um, so when we take our car to the shop and his struts are out, I'm not going to take
00:14:15it to some shop that only does oil changes.
00:14:18I'm going to find the shop that does the thing that I need.
00:14:22And people, believe it or not, have needs when going to a church.
00:14:28Some of them just generally go to church and they show up because they think they have to
00:14:32go to church.
00:14:33But there are other people who actually have specific needs.
00:14:36There are things that they either want to learn or things they need help with.
00:14:40There are people who are destitute.
00:14:42They need support from the church.
00:14:44One of the mainstream churches that I went to, which had an excess of money, refused to give
00:14:50money to the poor.
00:14:51Now, if you're a poor person and you want to go to a church, are you going to go to the
00:14:55one that's refusing to help you when you can't, when you don't have food for your five children?
00:15:00Probably this is a bad idea, right?
00:15:03And that was a mainstream church, right?
00:15:05So you want to go to a healthy church.
00:15:08However, I used to tell people when they would ask me, what church do I go to?
00:15:13They were wanting to find what denomination do I go to?
00:15:16And I used to instead point them to these websites.
00:15:19You've probably seen them, Signs of a Healthy Church, which is a good thing.
00:15:23It's a good concept.
00:15:25But after I recommended a few and some of the more famous ones, I realized that even the
00:15:31lists, Signs of a Healthy Church, many of them are cultish.
00:15:34And so I can no longer tell people, go find Signs of a Healthy Church, because you're going
00:15:39to find all of these cult groups saying, you must go to a church where the minister has
00:15:44heard an audible voice by God or some ridiculous thing.
00:15:48So you don't want to do that.
00:15:50You want to go to something that is a little bit less cultish, especially if you've been
00:15:55in a cult.
00:15:57And beyond that, you have to go in with the mindset that church was made for you, not
00:16:03you made for the church.
00:16:05People who are, when they lead these cults, they think they're going to church simply
00:16:10because they have to.
00:16:12And sadly, because they have been under spiritual abuse for decades, some of them, whenever they
00:16:19go to a new church, the spiritual abuse trauma is still so fresh in their mind that they're
00:16:25not getting anything out of it.
00:16:27They might as well be going to the movie theater and watching some movie as to sitting in church.
00:16:32They got just as much out of the movie as they did the church.
00:16:35So church was made for you, not you made for the church.
00:16:40And there's a lot more I could get into, but I'll stop there.
00:16:44I've got so much to say about this.
00:16:46Well, I'm going to give you plenty of opportunities.
00:16:48You know that with my other points.
00:16:50So the man has the call or he doesn't have the call.
00:16:54I mean, if he says, I don't feel any call, well, I would eliminate that guy.
00:16:58So, I mean, this is a bare minimum.
00:17:00Try to find out how do you, what was your call to the ministry like?
00:17:04Explain that, describe that to me.
00:17:06And if they go, uh, then I would leave because they missed the first one.
00:17:12But let's say they give us a call like we just had, John, an audible voice from God.
00:17:18Okay, you look, I wasn't there.
00:17:20So I cannot say whether that happened or not.
00:17:22But I like your approach of let's give them the benefit of the doubt.
00:17:25Okay, you did have the audible call.
00:17:27So we can check that one all.
00:17:29Now let's go a little further.
00:17:31Because just because, as you said, he has an audible call, doesn't mean that the next month
00:17:38or year of his life is going to turn out okay and doesn't mean you have to go there.
00:17:42So in the second place, would we not want our pastor to know and teach God's word?
00:17:50The Bible is our foundational document.
00:17:52It's our foundational book.
00:17:54The truth that we want to know, that we desire to know is in that book.
00:18:00And so I would want, if I were a member of a church or looking for a church,
00:18:07I would want my pastor, my teacher to know and teach God's word.
00:18:16I would want, that would be more important to me than do they have Sunday school or youth
00:18:20group or singles group or old people's group or unmarried or divorced or whatever.
00:18:26I would want my minister to know and teach God's word.
00:18:34Obviously, it presupposes here off the bat that you know a little about the Bible yourself.
00:18:39How can you know whether he knows it and is teaching it unless you know it?
00:18:43So it presupposes that we know a little bit.
00:18:46And here is where the bad ones become the dangerous ones because they know enough about
00:18:54the Bible to massage the passages, to massage the message, to get it to say what they want
00:19:04it to say.
00:19:04And I think one of the banes of the church world in our day, and it was one of the most
00:19:14horrific parts, I think, of Hobart's ministry.
00:19:18And I've talked about it many times before, John.
00:19:20I want to talk about it again and use a few examples and play one clip from Hobart.
00:19:26But that was his proficiency at cherry picking and proof texting, because people don't seem
00:19:35to quite understand that because someone can quote a verse, they preach a sermon, they insert
00:19:41a verse, then they finish the sermon.
00:19:44If that verse has been taken out of its context and doesn't really say or mean what the minister
00:19:50is telling you that it does, then he's just lost support for the message because that verse
00:19:57was what was holding up, undergirding his message.
00:20:01And people like Dr. Freeman are out there who excel at this particular area.
00:20:10Dr. Freeman knew Bible verses very well.
00:20:14That's not the same as saying someone knows the Bible very well.
00:20:19You can have one without the other.
00:20:22I think if you know the Bible very well, you're going to know verses and passages and chapters
00:20:28and stories, but I don't think the reverse is true.
00:20:32Just because you can quote some verses does not mean that you know what the Bible is saying.
00:20:38And I think what I came to see in Hobart's method of teaching was that, and it's not just Dr. Freeman.
00:20:49It is almost every minister on TV, almost everyone, charismatic and non-charismatic.
00:20:57They are looking for a verse that has the word or a phrase that fits their sermon.
00:21:05And they'll pull that verse out of its context, and they'll probably string a couple of them together
00:21:13that has a word or a phrase or some terminology that is what they want to talk about.
00:21:20And then they go on and tell their sermon and tell their story.
00:21:24So here is a great example.
00:21:27This is, it's John chapter 10 and verse 10.
00:21:32We can probably all quote it,
00:21:35The thief cometh not, but for to steal and to kill and to destroy.
00:21:39But I am come that you might have life and that you might have it more abundantly.
00:21:44It's a very famous verse, John 10, 10.
00:21:48And Hobart talked about it a lot, referenced it a lot.
00:21:52He's got gross and mass confusion about the verse,
00:21:57because I challenge anyone, go read the first nine verses and then start with verse 11 and read that
00:22:04and see if you come up with the meaning that we're getting ready to come up with
00:22:09when we just pull the 10th verse out of John 10.
00:22:13The thief that we say, well, we know who the thief is.
00:22:16That's Satan.
00:22:17Ah, that's never what the passage says.
00:22:20But the thief is Satan, and he's coming to steal from you your healing and your finances.
00:22:28And God has come to give you an abundant life.
00:22:31So here is a message of Hobart's entitled, The Abundant Life.
00:22:38That's the name of the message, The Abundant Life.
00:22:41This is almost hilarious.
00:22:42When you just take a step back and go, you mean I fell for garbage like that and nonsense like that?
00:22:50Why, a person in kindergarten, if they read the chapter, could come up with a better teaching than this.
00:22:57The Abundant Life, starting at the 40 minute and 58 second mark.
00:23:04If we could play through the 42 minute and 55 second mark.
00:23:09Now, I've got to do certain things if I'm going to live a day at a time in faith.
00:23:13First of all, I want to give you three or four things I've got to do, and this is what I do do.
00:23:17And that is, I must not try to budget God.
00:23:22I'm thinking now in the financial realm.
00:23:24Matthew 6.33 is talking about our material needs, that he'll give them to us.
00:23:28In that area, if I'm going to live just a day at a time, I'm not going to try to budget God.
00:23:34Psalm 78.41 says, the sin for which God rejected Israel is that she limited God.
00:23:41And a budget limits God.
00:23:42It's your confession, you're not sure God will do what he says.
00:23:47People who keep budgets, you see, it doesn't matter what their income is,
00:23:51they're trying to live within that budget and they'll never allow God to move into that realm
00:23:56because, you know, then they'd be outside their budget.
00:23:59God can't use them to believe for $50,000 for something he wants to do
00:24:06because they've got a $1,000 budget faith.
00:24:10Well, some may not be ready to see that the quicker you burn the budget
00:24:14and start believing, the better off you'll be, but it's true.
00:24:20You see, people who keep a budget, they say,
00:24:22well, now if I can just live within my income,
00:24:25and anyone who has the abundant life will never live within their income,
00:24:29that isn't the abundant life, they don't pay enough.
00:24:32They don't give enough.
00:24:34There's nothing I could do that would give me the abundant life financially.
00:24:40There's nothing I could do because when I was earning my limit with my doctor's degree,
00:24:45I made $4,200 a year.
00:24:50A year.
00:24:53That would take me, if I didn't eat,
00:24:56if I didn't eat and never spent a nickel,
00:25:00it would take me five years to buy the two cars I own right now.
00:25:05So Hobart's not only teaching the old, worn out, tried and true, abundant life,
00:25:10health and wealth, financial gain, prosperity, materialism.
00:25:16It's just crass materialism is all that it is.
00:25:19But it's based on a verse because the verse says you can have the abundant life.
00:25:23You can have the abundant life.
00:25:25Not only does he teach that, he goes a step further,
00:25:27and he's actually outlawing budgets in his church,
00:25:32outlawing budgets, family budgets.
00:25:34He's outlawing based on this verse.
00:25:36He also does this on another tape entitled, which we're not going to go to.
00:25:41Listen to the title of this, God's Great and Precious Promises, Part 1.
00:25:46So this is promises of health and wealth.
00:25:49And so he is telling the people,
00:25:51the quicker you burn your budgets, the better off you'll be.
00:25:56And he goes on to talk about the two big luxury cars he drives and all of this stuff.
00:26:03And so, John, I look back on my life as a young teenager and a minister in my early 20s.
00:26:09And here's the thing.
00:26:11There was a catchphrase, and it was called the abundant life.
00:26:15They would ask, hey, brother, are you living the abundant life?
00:26:19And the abundant life goes back to John 10.10,
00:26:23because remember what I said?
00:26:25They're looking for a word or a phrase that fits what they want to talk about.
00:26:30They couldn't care less what the context is.
00:26:32They want the phrase or the word.
00:26:35And guess what?
00:26:36The word is there.
00:26:38The abundant life.
00:26:39I am come to give you an abundant life.
00:26:42That was the passage that Hobart would use and talk about his Cadillacs, his Lincolns, and his prosperity.
00:26:52But he would never teach us John's gospel,
00:26:55which would mean you'd have to teach chapter 9.
00:26:58Then you'd have to teach chapter 10, and you've got to teach nine verses before you get to this 10th verse.
00:27:04So I grew up an ignorant young person being trained by this minister who's promising everyone the abundant life, John 10.10.
00:27:14And we'd go around quoting, yep, John 10.10.
00:27:16I'm claiming the abundant life, not even having any idea what the Apostle John was talking about when he wrote chapter 10.
00:27:26You know, Cheno, I should have kept talking because you beat me to one of my points, one of my main points.
00:27:30And I'll just agree with you and back you up and add this to it.
00:27:35Whenever you go to hear a minister and the minister focuses on personal stories or, in your case, you mentioned loaded language,
00:27:44and they focus on that rather than the Bible passage that they should actually be focusing on,
00:27:49it's a good place to flee from.
00:27:51It's not a good place to be.
00:27:54So I guess I'll head in a direction that I know you won't head, and that is whenever people escape a cult,
00:28:02they have been, like I said, under severe religious trauma, and they're traumatized.
00:28:08Many of them have what is called cult post-traumatic stress syndrome, CPTSD,
00:28:14and many of them, sadly, need therapists.
00:28:18And I highly recommend if you are struggling, go to a therapist.
00:28:22It's just like going to a doctor.
00:28:24I know especially in the Freeman cult and the Branham cult, you've been trained to fear these people, stay away from them.
00:28:31Step out of the fear.
00:28:33It can help a lot of people.
00:28:35But think about, for those of you who have gone to a therapist, think about this.
00:28:40Not every therapist who has a degree is a good fit for you.
00:28:44Some therapists, you may go to, if you're a female, you may want a female therapist.
00:28:49If you're a male, you may want a male.
00:28:52But even beyond that, you may just simply have a personality conflict.
00:28:56It may not be that they could be a great doctor, they could be a great person, great personality,
00:29:02but their personality conflicts with yours, you have to go to a different one.
00:29:07I have been to churches.
00:29:09I had a friend invite me to a church.
00:29:11The church was actually pretty good.
00:29:12I liked it.
00:29:13I did not like the minister.
00:29:15I liked what he said.
00:29:16I liked everything about him.
00:29:17But he just rubbed me the wrong way.
00:29:20His personality was, I'm not even going to say because the person might figure out who I'm talking about,
00:29:26but it was just a personality conflict.
00:29:29And that's all it was.
00:29:30I have nothing against the minister.
00:29:31I would recommend somebody else go to him.
00:29:33Maybe they don't have the personality conflict.
00:29:36I do.
00:29:37So I don't go there.
00:29:38But think of it like this.
00:29:40I was trying to think what's the most extreme example I can give, because people might even still be scared of that if you've been manipulated.
00:29:49When we – I grew up a large part of my life in the South.
00:29:52I would go spend weeks, months at my grandparents' house.
00:29:56And there's this one church that we went to.
00:29:59It was an African-American church.
00:30:01And those folks really like to worship, man.
00:30:04I mean, when I say they like to worship, buddy, they like to worship.
00:30:07And I'm talking, like, from 9 a.m. till 5 p.m. or longer whenever I'm starving.
00:30:15So if you're diabetic, don't go to one of those churches because you will pass out and die.
00:30:21But where I'm headed with that is think about that.
00:30:26There are people who won't attend a church like that, even though it might be next door to their neighborhood,
00:30:32because the culture's different, and they don't have anything against the culture.
00:30:37It's a great culture.
00:30:38It's just not my culture.
00:30:40Well, I have been to some modern churches where smoke's billowing out of the platform,
00:30:46and they've got the disco light.
00:30:48It's not disco, but whatever it is, the lighting, the weird lighting.
00:30:51And that might be okay for somebody.
00:30:53That's not my culture.
00:30:54I don't really – when I think of church, that's not what I think of.
00:30:58I don't – I think it, you know, it might fit a KISS concert or something like this,
00:31:03but to me, that's just – that's not my culture, man.
00:31:06To each their own.
00:31:07You may like that, but find one that fits you because – so for the people who go to this,
00:31:13I know people who go to the – I call it a disco ball church, but it's, again, not a disco ball.
00:31:18I know people that go there.
00:31:20I know people that their lives have been changed by going there because it does fit them,
00:31:24and they enjoy it.
00:31:26The things that they're telling me, they're getting sound scriptural teaching.
00:31:30It's a great church for them, not a great church for me.
00:31:33So find one that fits you, and don't look at it like you have to go because there's this weird thing
00:31:41when you escape a cult and somebody who is witnessing to you outside of the cult,
00:31:46you feel like beholden to them.
00:31:48You must go to the church.
00:31:49Know that you don't have to.
00:31:51Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started,
00:31:55or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,
00:32:00charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
00:32:04You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
00:32:10william-branham.org.
00:32:12On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research
00:32:16of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,
00:32:22with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:32:26You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:32:32If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.
00:32:39And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
00:32:45On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:32:50I tried in our earlier podcast to help document why I think Hobart was so obsessed with health and wealth.
00:32:59And I think it sprang literally from his own lack of health and wealth.
00:33:03And that's just not true with everyone else.
00:33:06I would rather, and I've told this to other people, I don't think the Bible teaches some message of prosperity.
00:33:13You know, I don't think there's a message, an end-time message of prosperity, an end-time message of faith,
00:33:19an end-time message of healing.
00:33:21I think there's just the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
00:33:23And some of these things are incidental, but they're not to be the focus of your ministry.
00:33:30And they definitely were with Dr. Freeman's ministry because he grew up poor and he grew up sick.
00:33:36So when you find a message that promises you health and wealth, you know, sad to say,
00:33:41but you're probably going to dive in and believe everything that's there.
00:33:46And I think that's what Hobart did.
00:33:47You know, when he looked at other passages, like Matthew 6, Matthew 6, 33 was a favorite passage.
00:33:56He probably talked, he talked about it way more than John 10, 10.
00:34:01Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.
00:34:06And he had always talked about, well, God gave this to me when I was saved on the road home from a nightclub in 1952.
00:34:15He gave me Matthew 6, 19 to 34, five times there.
00:34:19It says, take no fault for your material needs and he will supply all your needs.
00:34:24And he would incessantly talk about that and show you each time it said, take no fault, take no fault, take no fault.
00:34:32And I think, aren't we taking fault by studying how many times we are supposed to take no fault?
00:34:38And he was trying to get to Matthew 6, 33, God will supply all of your needs.
00:34:43And it does say that and actually does teach that in Matthew 6, 33.
00:34:48But prosperity, being able to have your needs met, I think if we studied that biblically,
00:34:56we'd see that that's just an incidental spinoff to loving God's kingdom and righteous living.
00:35:02If you would teach people about loving God's kingdom and righteous living, you won't have
00:35:09to talk about prosperity anyway, because of that passage.
00:35:13It actually says you won't even have to take fault.
00:35:16You won't have to preach on it.
00:35:18You won't have to talk about it.
00:35:19If you will teach on loving God and his kingdom and living a righteous and godly life, loving
00:35:28him, loving his word, loving his people, if that would be the bulk of your teaching, guess
00:35:35what?
00:35:35You'll never have to mention prosperity.
00:35:38Why not?
00:35:39Because that very passage promises you it'll just be an incidental spinoff because it's
00:35:46nothing that you're concerned about one way or the other.
00:35:49Whether you drive a long car, a short car, a valuable car, an inexpensive car really won't
00:35:55make any difference to you because you're so wrapped up in God's kingdom.
00:35:59And when you're like that, well, according to that passage, then, yeah, God will probably
00:36:04just take care of your needs for you.
00:36:07You won't have to take thought about them.
00:36:09You won't be thinking about them.
00:36:11So again, I think this sprang from Hobart's own poverty and his own sickness in his own life.
00:36:19I've told this before on our podcast, John, whenever Hobart Freeman would do a communion
00:36:25service at the glory barn or in his church, you know, what he'd want to talk about divine
00:36:30healing.
00:36:32And at first I was on board, I think, oh, because I've never really heard sermons on
00:36:37divine healing.
00:36:38And oh, yeah, healing's in the atonement.
00:36:40And why don't other pastors talk about healing being in the atonement?
00:36:44So since we're going to celebrate the communion, which represents Christ's death on the cross,
00:36:50let's talk about divine healing.
00:36:53But I came to believe in just a few years, it did not take me long because I've always
00:36:59tried just to be a reasonable person and a person who thinks about it.
00:37:04And so like you said earlier today, John, let's give the guy the benefit of the doubt that got
00:37:10the audible call.
00:37:11What I came to realize is, OK, let's give Hobart the benefit of the doubt that bodily healing
00:37:20is in the atonement, Isaiah 53, 1 Peter 2, 24, in the same way, to the same extent, in
00:37:28the same degree as salvation for our sin.
00:37:32Let's just assume that.
00:37:33You know, I came to believe I don't think that is true because sin and sickness are so
00:37:41different.
00:37:42Sin is something I do.
00:37:43Sickness is something I catch.
00:37:45How can, you know, I don't try to get sick.
00:37:47I just, you get sick.
00:37:49Sin is something I have to go do.
00:37:51So it never made sense to me.
00:37:53How could both of those, since one is something is a moral flaw and fault in my life, the other
00:37:58is just something that happens to me.
00:38:00How can those be so similar that they're equal and therefore they are equally born by
00:38:07Christ in the atonement?
00:38:10It just didn't make sense to me.
00:38:12I think the sin problem is the big problem.
00:38:15It's not the sickness problem.
00:38:16But anyway, what I was willing to do is let's give him the benefit of the doubt.
00:38:23Let's say that they are equally in the atonement.
00:38:27Then you know what I came to have a huge problem with?
00:38:30Then why is it?
00:38:31Every single communion service is a divine healing sermon.
00:38:36Wow.
00:38:36That just seemed to me like way out of balance.
00:38:39Balance would be 50-50.
00:38:41Half of the times you're going to have communion, let's hear something about sin and our savior
00:38:45and salvation and holy living.
00:38:48And the other half of the time, you know, to be fair, giving them the benefit of the doubt
00:38:52that it's equally in the atonement.
00:38:54The other half could be on divine healing.
00:38:57We never.
00:38:59And I'm going to say never because I do not know of an account.
00:39:02And I bet you can find in Hobart's 1157 message, there are at least 20.
00:39:09I think I could find more if I go through all of them and hear them again.
00:39:13Because he'll say at the beginning, well, because we're going to celebrate the bread
00:39:19and cup today, I wanted to bring a message on our full redemption.
00:39:23And then he'd preach on divine healing every single time.
00:39:27And so that told me, I think you have a bias here.
00:39:31You're not really thinking of what Christ's death on the cross was all about.
00:39:36You are mostly interested in healing.
00:39:38And I think you're mostly interested in healing because you've got a heart condition,
00:39:47because you have diabetes, because you have polio, because your other leg was run over
00:39:53and it is partially messed up and deformed.
00:39:56I think you're really interested in healing because of your own personal private needs,
00:40:03not because healing is equally in the atonement as is salvation.
00:40:08I was thinking where to go next.
00:40:10I have so many things to say, but I think I will go the direction that you went in this
00:40:15instance, because this is actually important, I feel.
00:40:19William Branham called this the gospel of divine healing.
00:40:21This salvation is in the atonement.
00:40:24And if you really think about that, whenever you are teaching a gospel, even one that you're
00:40:31admitting has a different name, you're teaching a new gospel.
00:40:35And there are Bible passages that really explain how bad this is.
00:40:39Like Galatians chapter one.
00:40:40Like Galatians chapter one.
00:40:42You're not supposed to teach a different gospel.
00:40:44So that should be obvious if they're teaching a different gospel, run for your lives.
00:40:49But there are many people who have been in these movements who have no idea what the gospel
00:40:55is.
00:40:56So I would say take a moment and just study the gospel.
00:41:02You can find all kinds of resources.
00:41:04There are great resources online.
00:41:06There are books.
00:41:08It's not this complicated thing.
00:41:10It's very simple.
00:41:11Whenever I left the cult and I started asking other people who some of them had been in cult,
00:41:18some of them not.
00:41:19Yes.
00:41:19And what is the gospel?
00:41:20And they didn't have a clue, man.
00:41:22And some of them, actually I would say the majority of the people in the cult, whenever
00:41:26they would say he preaches the gospel, they just simply mean he preaches the Bible.
00:41:31That's the funny part about this.
00:41:32He preaches the gospel does not mean he preaches the Bible.
00:41:36Understand what the gospel is.
00:41:38And if you're in a church that hasn't mentioned it in three or four weeks, you're probably not
00:41:45in a good Christian church.
00:41:46At least you're not in a gospel preaching church because they didn't preach the gospel.
00:41:52And you can't simply say the minister preached the gospel this weekend whenever he didn't
00:41:57do it at all.
00:41:57So you want to find one that is at least preaching the gospel.
00:42:00That's like the minimum criteria.
00:42:03Yes.
00:42:03And let me just help people out.
00:42:05I'm going to go to my third point.
00:42:06Turn to the first few verses, everyone.
00:42:09First Corinthians 15.
00:42:10And Paul clearly says, this is what the gospel is.
00:42:13And they can go look that up for themselves.
00:42:15So I want to come to a third and final point, John, looking for a good minister.
00:42:20Does he have a call?
00:42:22Does he know and teach the Bible?
00:42:25Thirdly, and people are probably going to be shocked, but I think we're probably getting
00:42:29to, I think you've intimated this earlier.
00:42:32This is probably the most important one.
00:42:34And that is, does this man care about me?
00:42:40Does he care about me?
00:42:42Does he care about me as a person?
00:42:44Does he care about me as a human being?
00:42:48Does he see me as a child of God enjoying the same saving grace that he's enjoying?
00:42:54Are we joint heirs?
00:42:56Are we fellow servants?
00:42:57Are we pilgrims on the same path?
00:42:59I don't know what people out there thought that my third condition or requirement would be this.
00:43:08Maybe this shocks them because I think they're looking for back to that first one, the call.
00:43:14Did he receive an audible call of an apostle or a prophet?
00:43:18Is he working signs and miracles?
00:43:21Is he causing the moon to turn to blood and the stars of heaven to fall?
00:43:25Is he the seventh angel sent back to the earth to prophesy all end-time events?
00:43:32You know, this is just a bunch of crazy nonsense is what it is.
00:43:37What people should be looking for is, does this man care about my soul?
00:43:42Does he care about me as a human being?
00:43:45You know, am I important to him?
00:43:47Guess what?
00:43:47When you get to a big church, Faith Assembly was a big church, that ceases to be.
00:43:52I happen personally to be an opponent of all big churches.
00:43:57I don't care who they are, who the minister is.
00:43:59I don't care how much good they're doing.
00:44:02That is out the door for me.
00:44:04That's my own personal belief.
00:44:06Everyone's welcome to have their own.
00:44:07But I don't think a big church can function the way a church is supposed to function.
00:44:14And everyone had to come up with their own definition of what is big.
00:44:17Is that 50?
00:44:17Is that 500?
00:44:18Is that 5,000?
00:44:20But surely, by the time we're to 5,000, we can all agree that's a big church.
00:44:25If it's a big church and it's too big of a church to me.
00:44:29What I saw in Hobart's life, John, is he talked incessantly about himself.
00:44:34Well, he would say, God saved me on the road home from a nightclub in 1952.
00:44:40And I made straight A's all through college and seminary.
00:44:43I got enough degrees to paper a wall.
00:44:45He gave me this end time message of faith, Matthew 6, 33.
00:44:50And I've got these luxury cars and I live in this home and I study 14 to 16 hours a day.
00:44:56Just on and on and on.
00:44:59If you listen to any Hobart tape, I'm going to say any tape.
00:45:03You're going to hear him somewhere in that message begin talking about himself.
00:45:07Now, if it's a more technical, theological one, he simply won't have as much of an opportunity to talk about himself because he has to stay on the topic.
00:45:16But you get anyone on faith and healing and deliverance or prosperity or how to know God's will or anything like that.
00:45:26And what you're going to hear more than any teaching from the Bible, you're going to hear stories about himself.
00:45:32I mean, it almost I hate to say this, but it almost reminds me of Hobart acted like the neighborhood dog just walking around trying to urinate on every bush to mark his territory.
00:45:43It's just always about himself.
00:45:45I don't know where I came up with that as an example, but it just reminds me of the bully bulldog in the neighborhood wanting to urinate on every pole and fence post to mark his territory.
00:45:57This is me, me, me, mine, mine, mine, mine.
00:46:01I didn't see Hobart being interested in the people in his church.
00:46:05He just wasn't.
00:46:06He didn't have any communication with him.
00:46:08How could he studying 14 to 16 hours a day in his study?
00:46:12He didn't want to be bothered by his wife, by his kids, by the people in his church, by no one.
00:46:17No, rather than that, he was an expert at just putting heavy burdens on these poor people, burdens that they should not have had to carry, too much for them to bear.
00:46:30He robbed them of their liberty.
00:46:32He robbed them of their joy.
00:46:35He did not know what was going on in their personal lives because he did not care to know that.
00:46:43He did not want to be bothered with that.
00:46:45He, Sunday night and Wednesday night were the highlights of his week because he had been cooped up in his study, been a long, dull, quiet week, and now he gets to shine and prance about and show off.
00:47:00And he didn't understand that everyone else was going through all the regular motions of life.
00:47:07Now, they were looking forward to Sunday night as well.
00:47:10They were looking forward to Wednesday night, and they were looking forward to what their pastor had to say.
00:47:15But I'm on a little side tangent because I am and have been a minister, and I don't know that people out in the pews have thought a lot about this.
00:47:26But let's say your minister preaches every Sunday morning.
00:47:30Let's say that he's in full-time ministry, so he doesn't work, doesn't have a secular job during the week.
00:47:36I don't know that people have processed how important that moment is for him that week.
00:47:43And if he teaches Wednesday night how important that moment is for him.
00:47:49He's got all of his eggs in one basket.
00:47:51I mean, this is his week for him, where the rest of us, we've already gone to work, come home, made beds, made dinner, mowed the lawn.
00:47:59We've lived a normal life the whole week.
00:48:02Someone like Hobart did not live a normal existence.
00:48:08I think the New Testament does clearly allow for a minister, if he preaches the word, to live by the offerings of the people.
00:48:20I think Jesus said that.
00:48:21I think the Apostle Paul taught that.
00:48:23I do think that we do have biblical support for a minister to only be a Christian minister and not hold a secular job.
00:48:34So I'm not saying that I disagree with that.
00:48:36But what I am saying is there is a lot to be gained by having a dual occupation.
00:48:44And I know this because I've experienced it.
00:48:47Had I not experienced it, I'd probably be out there with everyone else, not really being able to understand how important it is.
00:48:56Hobart could not identify with real life and real living and real people because he was never around them.
00:49:04Whenever you are a minister and you are dual vocational, you preach, but you also work.
00:49:11Now, for someone like Hobart, that'd be a cop out like, oh, you should be spending all your time.
00:49:17You should be trusting God to meet all your needs, give you the abundant life, and you should be spending all your time in prayer and study and getting ready to preach.
00:49:26So they would look down their nose at a Christian minister like the Apostle Paul, who not only preached, but also had a day job.
00:49:37They would look down their nose at them because they just think, you're carnal, you're not spiritual.
00:49:41And I just don't think those guys understand what they have missed out on.
00:49:48You really come into contact with daily life and daily living by working out there in the world.
00:49:57Consequently, your sermons and your teachings and your messages, they're going to have what?
00:50:02They're going to have compassion and empathy in them because you've experienced real life that week.
00:50:09Where the minister who hasn't, he just has this standard set up so high for everyone now.
00:50:15Have all of you read through the Bible in the last week?
00:50:18Did you spend an hour each morning praying as soon as you got up?
00:50:22Well, he can because he's got the time to do it.
00:50:26Those people can't because they don't have the time to do that.
00:50:30And that's the problem.
00:50:31They are so dependent on you as their minister.
00:50:35And then they come and you feed them this nonsense, this garbage that is not, as you said, John, that is not the gospel.
00:50:45So I would put this very high on my list of trying to find a church, trying to find a pastor.
00:50:52Does this man care about me and my wife and my husband?
00:50:58Does he care about our children?
00:51:00Is he involved?
00:51:02Does he want to be involved in our life at all?
00:51:05You know, someone had a meeting, I want to say it was in 2013.
00:51:10They told me about it.
00:51:12They met up with Steve Hill, who was married, still is, to Hobart's oldest daughter, Pam Freeman Hill.
00:51:19Met up with Steve, wanted to talk about the pastimes at Faith Assembly.
00:51:25And do you know what Steve, who was the elder son-in-law of Hobart, what he said about Hobart?
00:51:30They were asking him questions about Hobart.
00:51:33Steve Hill, this is a quote, said, I didn't even know the man.
00:51:38I didn't even know the man.
00:51:41Gave him two grandchildren, married to his oldest daughter, one of the top ministers in the church.
00:51:46You think those ministers, you think Hobart got the ministers together and they had regular Bible study together, regular prayer together, regular meetings of accountability.
00:51:56You know, you ask your lieutenants.
00:51:58If you're a smart boss, you ask the people under you, how do you think I'm doing?
00:52:02Should I do more of this, less of that?
00:52:04What's the temperature of the congregation out there?
00:52:07Hobart knew nothing about his people.
00:52:09That's why he didn't care when they got off their insulin and suffered terribly and then eventually died.
00:52:16He just said, well, they must have missed one of the conditions because, you know, you never die believing.
00:52:21You only die doubting.
00:52:22So I guess they were doubting.
00:52:24Whenever they would have a love feast and they would all bring their dishes and they would all get together, Hobart stayed up on the platform.
00:52:34He kept himself isolated.
00:52:35We don't want to, you know, taint ourselves with the common man out there.
00:52:39That is not a healthy sign of a healthy church because it's not a healthy sign of a healthy minister.
00:52:47I'll follow on the heels of that again.
00:52:49So there's this movie.
00:52:50I don't know if you've seen it.
00:52:51Oh, brother, where art thou?
00:52:53I have.
00:52:54It's basically a hillbilly take on Homer's Odyssey.
00:52:57Well, you're familiar with the John Goodman figure in this, the guy that he's selling Bibles and he comes and beats them with a stick and takes all their money.
00:53:07Here's the thing that I'll add that I know is going to make a lot of people mad, and I've already done it, so it's okay.
00:53:13I've got no problem with a minister who doesn't fully understand doctrine because I don't put them on a pedestal above me.
00:53:20I'm a human.
00:53:21I'm learning.
00:53:22They're ministers.
00:53:23In my opinion, they can be learning, too, and they may not fully understand doctrine.
00:53:28If they're teaching Old Covenant tithe, I think they're in the wrong because we're in the New Covenant.
00:53:35If they're teaching Old Covenant tithe and they are asking you for 10% of your money, count the congregation.
00:53:43Every 10th person is a salary for this guy, right?
00:53:46And you're talking about these megachurches.
00:53:48You're against them.
00:53:49I have to say I'm a little against them, too, because if you count the tens of thousands of dollars that are coming in every Sunday, I wish I had that much money.
00:53:58And the building doesn't cost that much.
00:54:01I'll just say it like that.
00:54:03So I've got no problem with doctrine.
00:54:04They're teaching Old Covenant tithe.
00:54:06You're in a church, whenever you see this, you're in a church that doesn't understand the covenants.
00:54:12That's fine.
00:54:13I've got no issue with this.
00:54:15But if they're teaching Old Covenant tithe and they're leaving the part out of the Old Covenant tithe where the priest gave it back to the people,
00:54:22picture John Goodman with that stick beating you on the head every Sunday asking for that tithe.
00:54:27Because they're following part of the law and they're not following all of the law.
00:54:32And what does James say about following part of the law but not keeping all of the law?
00:54:37Yes, John.
00:54:38And look, let's go back.
00:54:41Let's go back to where we started this podcast talking about John 10.10.
00:54:45The abundant life, the thief cometh not but for to steal.
00:54:48I was always taught that the thief is Satan in that verse.
00:54:52That the thief is the devil.
00:54:53And what he has come to steal from me is my health and my money.
00:55:01And Jesus has come to give me all of that back in the abundant life.
00:55:08You know, the Bible uses a lot of different imagery and symbols both for God and for his ministers.
00:55:19And I think one of the most tender and beloved comparisons in the Bible is that of a shepherd.
00:55:27You know, we all know Psalm 23, the Lord is my shepherd and I shall not want.
00:55:32You know, it's that loving, caring relationship that the shepherd has with the sheep.
00:55:40And guess what John 10 is talking about?
00:55:43It's not talking about Satan.
00:55:46It's talking about hirelings versus the true shepherd, the good shepherd.
00:55:53It's not talking about Satan at all.
00:55:54If you read the previous part of chapter 9, he's been in a long, all of chapter 9 is a dispute with the Pharisees
00:56:02because Jesus had the audacity to heal the blind man.
00:56:05And they're all upset that he healed the blind man.
00:56:08That's what all of chapter 9 is about.
00:56:10And so the attack in chapter 10 of John's gospel is not against Satan.
00:56:15He's not even in the picture.
00:56:17And of course he is a thief, but he's not in the picture.
00:56:20Who's in the picture are the false shepherds.
00:56:23They're the hirelings.
00:56:24That is who is in the picture.
00:56:26And so when we look later in the New Testament in places like, I've referenced this before, Acts 20 and verse 28,
00:56:33when Paul calls all of the elders from the Ephesian church to Miletus,
00:56:38then he calls them over and said, be good shepherds of the flock.
00:56:42He's using that same analogy.
00:56:45Jeremiah used it in his prophecy, warning against the false shepherds.
00:56:49Ezekiel in Ezekiel 34, he used the same analogy, criticizing the false shepherds in Israel.
00:56:57And that would simply be your leadership.
00:56:59It could be for Israel.
00:57:01It could have been their political leadership.
00:57:03It could have been their religious.
00:57:05It could have been a prophet, a priest, a prince, a king, government, civil leaders, whomever.
00:57:11However, Ezekiel was laying the axe at the root for all of them because they had simply harmed God's people.
00:57:19And I think it is in Ezekiel 34, maybe verse 4, maybe verse 5.
00:57:25I don't remember which one, but early in that chapter.
00:57:27The indictment against those false shepherds was that they did not tend to the needs of the sheep.
00:57:36And the needs were physical.
00:57:38You didn't bind up their wounds.
00:57:40You didn't heal those that were sick.
00:57:42The responsibilities were those that wandered away and were lost.
00:57:47You didn't go gather them back.
00:57:48You didn't seek them out.
00:57:51And when I compare those verses with Hobart Freeman's ministry, he was a false shepherd.
00:57:56Because he didn't care if you were sick.
00:57:58He just pressed and pressed and pressed and made sure you didn't get any type of medical aid.
00:58:03He wanted you to do whatever you have to do, trust God,
00:58:07and end up dying if it comes to that.
00:58:10And that's exactly what it came to.
00:58:12People that left the church, people that had, you know,
00:58:15aren't we allowed to have a question to our minister and say,
00:58:18I don't exactly see it the same way that you taught it?
00:58:22Do you mind answering a couple of questions that I have about your interpretation of that verse?
00:58:28Do you think that was allowed at faith assembly?
00:58:31Absolutely not.
00:58:33Hobart's word was God's word.
00:58:35That's what he said.
00:58:36And that's what he taught the people.
00:58:38And that's what they came to believe.
00:58:39Hobart's word is God's word.
00:58:41Hobart's word is Hobart's word.
00:58:42Chino's word is Chino's word.
00:58:44And God's word is God's word.
00:58:46And you better believe you have not only the right,
00:58:48but the responsibility to go and ask that minister,
00:58:51I don't quite see things this way.
00:58:53Could we talk about this?
00:58:55When you find a minister who says, oh, no, I'm not willing to talk about it.
00:58:58He doesn't care.
00:58:59He doesn't care about the fact that you legitimately in your mind,
00:59:06maybe illegitimately in his mind, but legitimately in your mind,
00:59:10you don't quite see it that way.
00:59:11You have a doubt or you have a question.
00:59:14He would just want to steamroll over you.
00:59:17And you can't do that to any person.
00:59:19A person who has a doubt has a doubt.
00:59:21I'm sorry.
00:59:21It's just that's who they are.
00:59:23If they have a problem, they have a problem.
00:59:25You can't say, well, you can't have that problem.
00:59:27You can't tell someone not to feel what they're feeling.
00:59:30You're not allowed to do that.
00:59:32You may not understand why they're feeling that way.
00:59:36You may think what you said was abundantly clear,
00:59:40and you can't understand why they can't see it.
00:59:43But if they can't, they can't.
00:59:45And it's up to you through patience and love and long-suffering.
00:59:50And that's what you'll do if you're a shepherd,
00:59:53because those are your sheep, and you love them so much.
00:59:56And you care about them so much.
00:59:58You don't want them to stumble over anything.
01:00:01So you will go above and beyond to make sure that they won't stumble,
01:00:07to make sure that they do understand.
01:00:10So I find it interesting, John, here, just in conclusion,
01:00:16that not only did Hobart misrepresent John 10.10,
01:00:20and he's always teaching on financial prosperity out of that,
01:00:23he failed to see what the whole background of that passage was.
01:00:28Is it going to be an indictment against him?
01:00:31He's acting more like a hireling because he doesn't really care about the sheep.
01:00:36As long as he's got income, as long as he's got a pulpit,
01:00:41as long as he can dance and prance about in front of everyone
01:00:45and show everybody how great he is, how smart he is,
01:00:49he doesn't care about those brothers and sisters in that church that are suffering.
01:00:54And as we have done a year and a half of podcasts now,
01:00:57and I have heard from people weekly, I hear from someone new.
01:01:01I heard from someone on Saturday,
01:01:04someone I never dreamed I would hear from,
01:01:07because I won't say who they are,
01:01:09but they are a child.
01:01:11I told you this story in an earlier podcast.
01:01:14Remember, there was a person who wanted to leave Tom Hamilton's group.
01:01:19Tom Hamilton had probably the biggest and longest lasting satellite group
01:01:23of Faith Assembly down in Shelbyville, Kentucky.
01:01:27Tom died about 10 years ago,
01:01:29but this person was a part of Tom Hamilton's church.
01:01:32They found me, thought I was better,
01:01:35I was a better flavor,
01:01:36and they wanted to leave Tom's church and come and join mine.
01:01:40And I never, and I was okay with that,
01:01:42but I never wanted to be a sheep stealer.
01:01:44That just bothered me.
01:01:46So I called Tom to clear all that,
01:01:48say, Tom, look, you've got this family in your church.
01:01:51They think they like me more than they like you,
01:01:54and they want to leave your church and join mine.
01:01:56And I don't want them here unless I have your permission.
01:02:02I just thought that was the fair and honest thing to do.
01:02:05And so he said, yeah, you can have them.
01:02:07So they came, and this person told me that he was a prophet,
01:02:12that he was just like Ezekiel, you know, Zechariah, Malachi.
01:02:15He's a prophet.
01:02:17I haven't heard that person's name,
01:02:19haven't talked to him, his wife,
01:02:22anybody about him in 35 years.
01:02:25And guess who I talked to on the phone on Saturday?
01:02:28One of his 11 children.
01:02:31One of that man.
01:02:33And I said, sister, dear, honey, sweetheart,
01:02:37I'm so glad you called me.
01:02:40Said, I am so happy to hear from one of the children
01:02:44of this very odd soul from so many years ago in my life.
01:02:49So we had a wonderful hour conversation.
01:02:52By the one, that's the one that you turned me onto
01:02:56and them onto me because they had reached out to you first.
01:02:59So again, my point is look for a minister
01:03:03who is willing to walk with you through your Christian life
01:03:08and share your burdens.
01:03:11And I don't think anybody could dispute
01:03:15what I'm saying that Hobart did not share anyone's burden.
01:03:20He thought he was above that.
01:03:21He got his message during the week and he came and preached it.
01:03:25And it was up to you to live it.
01:03:27Was he down in the trenches with husbands and wives
01:03:31and boys and girls?
01:03:33Not one bit.
01:03:34So I would say maybe put at the top of your list.
01:03:36I'm with John.
01:03:37I want a man who is biblically literate.
01:03:40I don't want someone who is biblically illiterate.
01:03:43But I also want someone with personal piety.
01:03:46You know, both of these, I think they go hand in hand.
01:03:48I want someone who will teach me God's word,
01:03:50who does understand God's word.
01:03:52But I'm totally on board with you on this, John.
01:03:55None of us know it all.
01:03:56So your minister, there may be something you know
01:03:58that he doesn't know.
01:04:00And that's okay.
01:04:01You know, he's got time to grow.
01:04:03But if he's failing in this area of caring for the sheep,
01:04:07you know, I just think he totally fails as a minister.
01:04:11Yeah, and I would go so far as to say he's not a minister.
01:04:13All right.
01:04:15It's like we compared the notes.
01:04:16You're going down the pathway I was going to go.
01:04:18So I was going to end with this, and I'll just add this story, I guess,
01:04:23so I have something to say.
01:04:25If you've listened to the last podcast that Charles and I did,
01:04:28it really sums this thought up.
01:04:30If you are in a church where the minister is preaching at people
01:04:33instead of for people, you are not in a minister that cares for you.
01:04:38He has no care for you whatsoever,
01:04:40especially if they're a minister that are preaching at people that are leaving.
01:04:43Can you imagine if you went to a doctor's office
01:04:46and the doctor started telling all the patients how awful you were
01:04:50if you left his practice and went to another one?
01:04:53What kind of doctor is this, right?
01:04:55And you're going to a guy who claims to be a shepherd,
01:04:58and he cares about the sheep.
01:04:59Well, the moment a sheep leaves, if he's preaching at them,
01:05:02this is not a shepherd.
01:05:04He could care less.
01:05:05Charles gave some audio clips, and oh, my gosh,
01:05:09one of them was this minister, he said he walked into KFC
01:05:12and he saw a person who used to attend his church,
01:05:15and he started screaming at them,
01:05:17oh, they're the ugliest people,
01:05:19this ugly old gray-headed ugly man.
01:05:22What kind of a shepherd does this, man?
01:05:24You're not going to invite them back into the fold like this.
01:05:27I'll just tell you, that's not how you're going to attract them.
01:05:32Anyway, I'll end it with that.
01:05:33I've got a thousand more things to say,
01:05:35but this has been fun and interesting,
01:05:38and thank you for doing it.
01:05:39Yeah, thanks for having me on, John.
01:05:41I appreciate it.
01:05:42Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information,
01:05:44you can check us out on the web.
01:05:45You can find us at william-branham.org.
01:05:48For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation,
01:05:51you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR,
01:05:54available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:06:05Maybe we'll see you next time.
01:06:23We'll see you next time.
01:06:32You can see you next time.
01:06:32We'll see you next time.
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