From Hopelessness to Healing: Tools for Recovery from Cult Abuse | Jesse Collins | Overcoming Ep 475 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Jesse discuss the emotional recovery process following the departure from high-control religious movements and the steps toward rebuilding a healthy sense of identity. Jesse shares his involvement in the documentary "See Through the Darkness," which explores how people find hope and renewal after years in controlling environments.  Together, they talk about the impact of spiritual manipulation, the loss of community, and the journey of rediscovering self-worth. They share practical strategies for emotional wellness, building supportive relationships, and cultivating inner peace through healthy boundaries and positive thought patterns. This is an uplifting conversation focused on recovery, empowerment, and finding light after leaving an oppressive belief system. ______________________ Please check out an excellent suicide prevention film by Carl David and Frank X Panico title, See through the Darkness. Join us in our battle to help save lives. The trailer and film could be seen at seethroughthedarkness.org  00:00 Introduction 00:31 Opening the Conversation: Why This Topic Matters 01:04 The Weight of the Subject and Personal Healing 01:50 Linking the Discussion to the New Documentary 02:38 Inside “Seeing Through the Darkness” 04:09 Trauma in High-Control Religious Groups 05:26 Early Encounters With Crisis 07:05 How Control Structures Shape Despair 08:20 A Story From Crisis Intervention Work 10:31 The Role of Dehumanization 12:22 Different Responses After Leaving 14:05 Fear-Based Teaching and Its Effects 15:26 The Psychological Toll of Constant Condemnation 17:19 Breaking Down vs Building Up 18:36 How Negativity Rewires Thinking 20:00 The Post-Exit Crisis 21:47 Sudden Loss of Community 22:58 Why People Stay 24:51 Control Dynamics in Non-Religious Groups 26:00 Identity Collapse After Leaving 27:15 The Need for Clinical Support 29:01 Rebuilding Community Safely 31:05 The Importance of Healthy Relationships 32:10 Tools for Mental Recovery 33:25 Physical Health and Emotional Recovery 34:56 Creating Safe Environments 35:56 Survivor Networks and Trauma Bonding 38:11 Validating the Experience Through Shared Stories 39:20 Reforming Thought Patterns 41:32 Becoming Your Own Best Friend 42:56 Releasing What You Cannot Control 44:17 Healthy Boundaries for Former Members 45:45 Recognizing Warning Signs in Others 47:30 Talking Openly and Seeking Help 48:34 Where to Turn in Crisis 50:28 Community Resources and Immediate Help 52:17 Normalizing Professional Support 53:17 Closing Thoughts and Documentary Link 54:00 End Credits ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/William

Transcript

00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, Dr. Jesse Collins, former message

00:47member and psychotherapist. Jesse, it's good to have you back. We've done so many podcasts on

00:54our overcoming series about mental health, and there's one topic that we really didn't

00:59get to, and I really wanted to. I just wasn't yet mentally prepared for it, because it is

01:04a heavy, heavy subject, and it's one that really hits home for me. So this is a topic that I

01:11wanted to do with you, and I think I have now healed to a point where I can. But I warn the

01:18audience, this is a, like I said, it's a very deep, heavy subject. It's not probably a, I

01:23wouldn't consider it a family-friendly topic, but we're going to be talking about self-harm

01:28and the relationship between self-harm and members of high control groups, high demand

01:35groups, cults. The need for suicide prevention is strong, and I think this is something that

01:42you and I can discuss, and now, like I said, I'm healed to a point where I can. But it also

01:48is tied to and related to something that you have that's very exciting. You've been recently

01:53in a documentary and wanted to have you on so that you could talk a little bit about

01:58that and then dive deeper into the subject of helping people to overcome the thoughts

02:06and the dark place that they're in. Whenever you leave a cult, it's a difficult time. So

02:12thank you for coming. Maybe if you could tell everybody a little bit about your exciting

02:16news with the documentary. Well, thanks, John. It's good to be back and appreciate you taking

02:21the time to address this important topic. Last time we talked about those inclined to self-harm

02:29and trying to prevent that, and I was involved in helping create a documentary called Seen

02:39Through the Darkness. It's a documentary where a series of people are interviewed who have experienced

02:57thoughts of self-harm or had loved ones, people close to them, self-harm. So it's an important

03:07documentary. This one is particularly focused on military and first responders, but really

03:13it applies to everybody who might be thinking of being at that point in their life where they're

03:19considering taking action against themselves or if they have a loved one who's in that dark

03:27place. So I encourage you to take a look at the documentary. It's a series of interviews

03:35that are cross-correlated through the documentary as different pieces of the interview correlate

03:43with each other, even though the interviewees didn't even know each other. So it's a powerful

03:50piece, and I encourage you to take the time to look at Seen Through the Darkness if you get

03:56a chance.

03:56Well, awesome. That's exciting news, and it's a good topic, I think, that is really needed,

04:04especially in the cult groups that follow my channel, people who have been in religious

04:10movements that are high-demand groups. There appears to be, from what I understand, a direct

04:16correlation between people who are given a traumatic scenario from having been in one of these cult

04:25groups, and eventually leading into self-harm. We've had a number of people who have contacted

04:32me on the website and said that they were prone to this after having been in it. In fact, one

04:37of the first few people that contacted me whenever my website first launched in 2012 told me that

04:44the only reason that they were still alive was because they had found my content, and they began

04:50to realize that what was happening to their brain wasn't something that happened to itself. It was

04:56something that was inflicted by the cult that they had escaped. And that's just one of, I'll bet at this

05:04point I've had 10 to 11 people now who have contacted me, and there's probably even a larger number of

05:11people who haven't yet contacted me who have gone through something similar. And you and I have

05:17backgrounds where family members have, we've lost family members. So this is a very important subject

05:23for me. I think I mentioned with you, I know I mentioned with one of the other podcasts, but

05:29towards the climax of my being in the cult, I call it climax. I don't know what else you call this.

05:36Whenever the explosion happened and I decided it was time to make my exit, things weren't very good.

05:43And I had not reached the point yet where it was dangerous. But we have a cousin, you and I, who

05:50was calling me daily and talking me through it so that I didn't get to that point. And I'm alive today

05:57because of him. And sadly, we lost him to COVID. But it's very real to me because I went through it. I

06:05know exactly what it's like. I have other podcast hosts who have also gone through it. And it's very real.

06:12It's very painful. I don't know that last time you and I talked, I could have really

06:17approached this subject. I've, I've come to a place of healing now where I think I can, but

06:21it is very, for somebody who's experienced it, it is something that will, you'll remember it the

06:27rest of your life. You'll never forget it. You always feel it. And you, if you overcome it,

06:34you will get to a place where you don't put yourself into a position where you can be susceptible to this

06:40again. So this is a very important topic. I think, uh, if we were to attack this, I would want to

06:47attack it in such a way where we are talking to people who might be experiencing those thoughts

06:55and try to lift them out of it. Um, that's an excellent point, John. I, uh, here's the thing

07:02is that cults are very control oriented. And so when, and people, organizations that are control

07:11oriented, leave their subjects, few options, except compliance. And if you're out of compliance,

07:19then you're usually contend to some type of eternal damnation or, uh, being, um,

07:27banned from that community and have your social ties cut off and being cut off from your loved ones.

07:33So it's really a, uh, a horrible choice to have to make. If you're going to leave the cult,

07:41all of your, your, your family and loved one connections are often cut off or limited.

07:47And you are quote unquote, an outcast from that community. And that leaves people feeling helpless

07:57and hopeless. And those are the two main, uh, emotions or states of mind that are consistent

08:04with somebody wanting to self harm because they feel helpless. They feel hopeless. There's nothing

08:10else I can do. There is no solution for me. And so I think I'll just hurt myself.

08:17And, um, uh, I'll, I'll give you an example that the friend of mine is a pastor. Um, we both assisted

08:27at a domestic violence shelter years ago and, uh, he was the chaplain for the shelter and he had a lady

08:37come to him that was attending another church and the church was very, very, very against, um,

08:47divorce under any circumstances. And the lady was experiencing domestic violence on the daily from

08:53her husband, apparently pretty aggressive domestic violence. And so she had gone to her pastor asking,

09:00you know, what should she do? And the pastor said, it doesn't matter, you know, what he's doing to you,

09:06you can't ever leave him. So she came to the chaplain at the domestic violence shelter and asked him.

09:13Why? And he said, no, that's not true. Uh, you're not bound by marriage to be abused,

09:20uh, and, uh, beaten. Uh, you can be safe and you don't have to stay with somebody who's abusing you.

09:28Uh, and so the lady told him, well, I'm glad you said that because I had already made up my mind

09:36that if you told me the same thing, my pastor told me here at the domestic violence shelter,

09:42that I was going to go home and, uh, commit self-homer. And that because she felt hopeless

09:48and helpless that there was a way out of her situation. And once the pastor at the domestic

09:53violence shelter gave her a way out, helped her with the legal issues, helped her with the funding,

09:59because all those resources were available at the domestic violence shelter, she had hope.

10:05She said, oh, there's a way out. I don't have to live this life. I'm not stuck in this marriage

10:10where this person is beating me and, and, uh, being, uh, horrible to me. So once he extended the whole

10:17the lifeline, he literally saved your life. So that's an example of how powerful whotelessness

10:24and helplessness can be, as well as how powerful a lifeline can be. Absolutely. The other thing that

10:31I have noticed that the high demand groups, the cult groups do is, well, two things. First,

10:36they like to dehumanize, especially their enemies. If they can take the human element away and you're

10:43attacking the, the so-called demons inside or however they frame it, you're dehumanizing your

10:50enemies. But then what happens when you do this, there are people within the congregation who may

10:55have similar ways of thinking than those who are the enemy. And so they begin to dehumanize themselves.

11:02And this is, this is a huge problem. The other thing that the cult groups and the high demand groups

11:08will do is they will often, especially in the more destructive groups, they will present you with

11:14the idea that your self-worth is of no value. The cult is of all value. Your self is of no value.

11:22And this combination, when you combine those two things together and you are in that mindset,

11:28if you have no self-worth and you have been dehumanized, you start to question your existence.

11:34And this is a huge problem. I've had several people, well, handful of people who have talked to me of

11:41the, the thoughts that went through their head whenever this was happening. But I know that a

11:45large number of people have gone through both of those things where it gets really tricky is some

11:52people can go through this and do the research, leave and heal without much intervention. Some people just

12:02have such a positive outlook and attitude. They just leave and say, I'm done. I don't want any more

12:07of this. But there are other people who struggle with it and it doesn't make them weaker or of less

12:14value. People are people there. They, they both have self-worth, but some people need some assistance.

12:21And that's something that I think we don't handle very well, even in mainstream churches I have

12:28attended. I think that there is a strong need for helping people with these kinds of struggles.

12:35Well, control groups, uh, have a vested interest in that dehumanization and making people feel

12:44worthy if they're in the group, but unworthy and worthless if they're out of the group.

12:49Because if they're out of the group, the control group has lost control over them and that's not

12:55helpful to their mission. And so it's really easy to see how it's a very small leap from

13:03I'm leaving to, oh, well, and I'll use a phrase a pastor had said to someone I know personally and told me

13:12because the person wouldn't give compliance. The pastor said, therefore, I condemn you to hell

13:21as a, as an attempted control measure. Either you do what I say or you're going to hell.

13:28Now, biblically, we know that the determination of hell is rendered to Jesus Christ,

13:35you know, not to humans. We, we can't condemn someone to hell. Only Jesus decides who goes to hell

13:41and who doesn't. But in this case, the guy was taking that power to himself as a control mechanism

13:48over this person that was talking to me. And that's how some people believe it. They're like,

13:53oh, oh no, I'm going to hell. And they don't question that, that this human doesn't have the

13:59authority to condemn anyone to hell. Um, but you know, it's, it's very easy, especially in emotional

14:06moments to lose logic and reason. Whenever I left, I began studying the Protestant Reformation.

14:13And I came across a large number of sermons by Martin Luther, which I, I wish I could find that

14:18repository again, because I can't remember the exact phrasing, but he said something to the effect that

14:24these, these people are preaching constant fear of hell. And I'm not going to do this in my church

14:31because I don't have a single parishioner who wants to go there. Instead, I'm going to preach

14:36heaven. And I'm paraphrasing greatly because I can't, I can't recall the exact words, but

14:41I began to think about that. And I was, interestingly, I was in a, in a mainstream church that almost every

14:49sermon, that's what they focused on. And you just felt so beaten down and broken. And the way that it

14:55worked, I started to analyze the structure of the sermons. And interestingly, I was at the same time

15:02analyzing the cult leader that I had left, the structure of his sermons. And what they would do

15:07is they would break you down to the lowest level and then lift you up as though they were the savior.

15:13So on the one hand, you had a cult leader who's doing it. Well, this was just a regular pastor. I

15:18would not consider it a cult or a cult leader, but his structure of the sermons was much the same.

15:24And I started thinking about the mental health consequences of doing this. When you break people

15:30down like this, it's not healthy. It's not a, not a good thing to do. And even so also at the same

15:38time, all this is going on. I've mentioned this a few times. We had a dog that I was training

15:42and I was learning to train a dog. I was researching to train a dog. And it was very,

15:49very obvious things that I was reading. Like you don't constantly beat the dog down. You want to

15:55give them praise, give them a treat, something uplifting, not, not breaking them down. And so

16:01I'm sitting here in these sermons thinking, well, they're treating us worse than dogs in here.

16:06And again, some people can handle it. This didn't really faze me. I just walked away and

16:12I decided this church is not for me. I'm going to try another one.

16:16But there are people who, after being treated like a dog, they, they suffer and they struggle.

16:23Well, uh, it's human nature to want to be accepted, loved and appreciated and to belong.

16:32And, uh, unfortunately those natural inclinations that we have, that we're born with can be used

16:41against us. Um, and while it can be used in a positive way, such as the military does,

16:49they take a civilian and they break them down from their civilian thought processes

16:56and rebuild them into military thought processes. And they can develop very successful

17:03fighting units, very, very, very successful units that perform very well because they got them to

17:11stop thinking in a civilian manner and turn to a military command structure manner. And so you can

17:19get people from all over the country, uh, with all different religions and cultural backgrounds and

17:26ethnic backgrounds and get them to perform as one unit, all dressed the same, acting the same,

17:33doing the same thing. And so done right, these people have, they, they exit the training with very high

17:43self-esteem. They're very proud of their accomplishments and often look back on their

17:49service for the rest of their life with pride. So that process can be a very positive one.

17:57Or if you have, but they don't have evil intent. If you've got evil intent, the process can be a

18:04very negative one. And so that's why critical thinking is so important at every level. Being able to think

18:13critically about what is actually going on here and why is this person saying this to me and what

18:19what, what do they have to gain, right? Whose ox is being gored, the old saying, you know, um,

18:28follow the money is another one. Um, and so command and control can be absolutely misused and abused or it

18:36can be used for positive. And I think the key to that is in the military version you're describing, there is a

18:43breaking down, but there's also a building up and the building up is the focus, not the breaking down.

18:49You break down, you know, you, you understand how it works, but the, the sermons that I'm referring

18:55to whenever they broke the people down, they, the uplifting part wasn't as uplifting as it could have

19:01been. I just say it like that and especially in the call groups. Right. But so people who have been

19:08broken down like this, the, like I said, the value of self-worth is decreased and people start to feel,

19:16if you feel worthless, you feel helpless. What do you do? And that's really where the mindset gets to

19:23that point where it becomes a little bit dangerous. What do you tell people whenever they're in that

19:28mindset? 100% reach out, um, help is a phone call or a keyboard stroke away. Uh, it might even be a

19:39friend away, but step out of the, uh, organizational structure that's causing the problems. So let's talk a

19:50little bit about the post exit crisis. Whenever you leave a cult, there's a crisis that happens and it's

19:58unexpected for a lot of people. I know it was for me. Whenever I left, I had this glorious idea that

20:05I had the information. I had the facts. The facts were definitely worth leaving the cult.

20:11And I assumed as, as soon as I presented all of these facts to the people who were in it,

20:16immediately there would be this mass exodus and people would leave this into freedom.

20:22There would not be this high demand pressure, all of the things that we were burdened down with.

20:26But the reality is whenever people are under a deep level of mind control, as which happens with many

20:34of these cult groups, the, the family doesn't just instantly leave. They have to go through the same

20:39process you did to get there. And it's a quite extensive process. So whenever a person leaves,

20:46there's this sudden aftershock. You suddenly, all of your friends and family that you were very close

20:52to are no longer very close to you. In cases like the group that you and I left, there's a deep level

20:59of shunning. And that may be physical shunning. Maybe you can't go around them. But in many cases,

21:05it is just an emotional shunning. There's this emotional wall that is put up between you and the

21:10family member who's still in the cult. And this is unexpected. So people suddenly come to terms with,

21:17I've, I've just lost everything. What do I do? That aftershock can place people into this dark place

21:23you're describing, they, they're basically, they're forced into the dark place. And it's very difficult

21:29for people to rise out of it. So I think it would be good to talk through recognizing what that dark

21:36place looks like, especially for people who have left these cult groups.

21:40Well, the strongest thing about leaving in the reason that you didn't, you know, as you said,

21:48I expected a lot of people go, Oh, wow. I never knew. So, um, let's go. But that doesn't happen

21:58because so much of their identity is invested into the group. And in fact, I saw someone post on

22:06Facebook today about one of those groups is that this person was saying, people ask me why I stay

22:15when it's so crazy, but I can call anybody and get them to come over and fix my, whatever I can get

22:23help with whatever I can get money if I need it. So this person saw the group as a little bit like

22:33problematic, but the benefits of having that network and that sense of belonging was worth more worth

22:45putting up with the craziness of the cult. So, um, I think that people really, really value, um,

22:55belonging and having a sense that they matter and that people, uh, have people accept them and love

23:09them and care about them. Even if that love and care is completely contingent upon your membership.

23:17Um, I'll give you another example. Uh, I was recently, uh, looking at a article on

23:28membership in a, uh, criminal motorcycle game. And this, uh, former member of this is called one

23:37percenters guys that are criminal motorcycle games. And, uh, he was talking about when,

23:43how much they're, they were brothers and had everybody's back and I love you. And it was very,

23:50very much a sense of belonging when he was, he was in that particular, uh, motorcycle, uh, club.

24:00But once he decided he didn't want the criminal lifestyle anymore, and he took off his vest,

24:07which is called a cut and put that down and left the, the, the motorcycle club,

24:15that they wanted nothing to do with him, even though they had proclaimed that they were his

24:20brothers and they had his back for life. Um, he found out real quick that that was not the case,

24:27that it was completely dependent upon his membership and participation in the criminal biker game

24:33that he remained accepted. Once he put it down and stopped being in that control group,

24:40because that's what it is, a control group. Um, he was shunned exactly as you said. And so,

24:47even though this wasn't a religious cult, it's absolutely similar characteristics. You either do

24:54what we say or we'll shun you. It's very similar characteristics, just a criminal biker game.

24:59It's odd to me how many different types of groups are so similar in structure to what we left.

25:06When, when you think of the, and I'm wanting to mention the names of these biker groups, but

25:12you've watched movies about these biker groups and you've seen the structure, the internal structure

25:16of how they work. And especially when somebody leaves all the bikers, you know, in the movies,

25:20they come after them, but you don't really recognize that what they're describing in the movies and the

25:27television shows. It's actually the framework of the cult mindset that these religious groups are

25:32built upon. So, like I said, when I left, it was, it was quite a shell shock. And the, the next step

25:40that happens after you go through that crisis and everybody has broken you down, you suddenly yourself,

25:46you have an identity crisis. Your identity has now collapsed. You recognize that what you had as an

25:53identity was the cult identity. And who, who am I? What, what do I, what do I see myself as? How do I

26:01improve myself now that I'm no longer part of this? Who am I? What is my personality to be? There's so

26:07many questions you're filled with. And part of that eventually will trigger what is considered complex

26:14trauma, CPTSD. Um, there are different phrases that are now also used called PTSD is another phrase,

26:22but all of these contribute to going to this dark place. Well, it's really important that when somebody

26:28comes out of such an organization that they seek mental health assistance, because it's very difficult

26:35to figure out who you are and what your purpose in life is while you're, uh, suffering PTSD or whatever

26:43trauma was foistered upon you by the group. Um, as you know, we had talked before in other

26:51circumstances, right when we come out of the group, there's a lot of anger and frustration,

26:57a lot of emotionality around what the group did to the individual. In case this case, you and me,

27:06it's very difficult to figure out who we are when we're that upset.

27:09And, um, so it's important to, with the help of mental health professionals to get to calmer waters

27:20before we start making any big decisions about who we are and where we need to live and what we need

27:27to be doing for a living. Um, it's a lot, a lot to work through and it takes time because

27:34people that are coming out of cults didn't get in that state of mind overnight. Often they were

27:41either raised in it or came to as an adults, but they, they've been in it for some time.

27:48And so they have the cult mindset. And so to get out of that takes time and it takes mental health

27:54counseling. And so finding it and even just finding a, uh, uh, appropriate provider who understands

28:05that whole world, which a lot of people aren't exposed to the cold world.

28:12And so they, they can't relate to it. They don't even really fully understand it. So, uh, you have

28:17to be careful in your selection of a mental health provider when you're coming out of a cult too.

28:22Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of

28:27modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter rain, charismatic and other fringe movements

28:33into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham historical research's

28:40website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of

28:47John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper,

28:54audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various

29:01people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support

29:07the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe

29:13to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham historical

29:18research, we want to thank you for your support. When you leave a cult and you've left this environment

29:25like you've just described where I can go to get a roofer if I need a roofer or an electrician,

29:31I know people who are like this. They will only use the cult approved vendors whenever they're in this

29:36mindset. Once you leave that the along with the mental health providers, if you need them,

29:42is building a strong community. And wading through that when you're in a dark place is very difficult.

29:49Like I said, I experienced a lot of what we're talking about here. And when you're in the dark

29:55place, you really don't want to build a community. Because your self worth is gone, your self value is

30:01gone. Why would I want to build a community? I'm not worth it to the people who I'm building it with.

30:06And so you enter in this dark place that's like this vicious cycle that keeps you in the dark place.

30:12But as soon as you can break free from that mindset and start building a safe community,

30:19that's where your rebuilding of your life happens. And I focus on the word safe because I have seen

30:25people who rebuild communities that ironically are far worse than the cult that they escaped.

30:31Because not everybody who you are around after leaving is a safe person. So you have to build a

30:37safe environment. What is your advice to building the post cult environment?

30:42I think you made a really good point there, John, social support is incredibly important. And you have

30:48to build social support with people that you can trust. And that necessarily would guide somebody

31:02to make social connections with people that are not associated with the cult. It's really important

31:09that you not keep those old ties as far as rebuilding your social network. It's not to say that you have to cut off

31:18religion in any way in your life. You have to obviously use critical thinking about what's in it for this

31:28person. Why are they doing this for me? Are they doing it out of the goodness of their heart? Or are they just

31:36a friend? Are they extended family? Social support is crucial, but you've got to be judicious in applying that

31:49that application to allow people inside. That's going to take time and you've got to be patient.

31:56But completely divorcing yourself from the cult influence is going to be a crucial part of

32:03rebuilding your network. And the trauma that exists after leaving, are there any tools? We've talked

32:10about the PTSD before in some of the past podcasts that we've done, but are there any tools or development

32:18strategies, mental health development strategies that you would recommend for somebody who's in the dark

32:23place?

32:24Well, beginning with reaching out for mental health professionals assistance,

32:32then taking care of yourself physically. A lot of times cults are not

32:38into physical health as much and exercise and eating healthy. There's a there's a real connection

32:50between regular exercise and feeling less depressed. Often when I've got a client who's suffering depression,

32:58I ask them, are they exercising? Are they getting out? How are they eating? Limiting alcohol,

33:07limiting exposure to medications, unless you know, they have to have them. Because sometimes people take

33:15medications as a coping mechanism rather than that they actually need the medication for whatever.

33:22So getting taking care of themselves physically is an important element because when a person begins to

33:31see after look after their own physical health, it actually boosts their self-esteem. That's why people

33:38will come in, you know, you might see a friend and they're like, so how are you doing? Oh, I ran two miles

33:44this morning. It was a fantastic run or they worked out or they went for a long walk. Whatever it was that they did. You can

33:52tell that they feel good about that. They did that for themselves. It's self-care and it's self-love

34:00and it's self-valuing. So getting mental health help, starting to take care of yourself physically,

34:10and starting to only expose yourself to environments that are positive. Not allowing people in your life

34:20who take from you, who are negative influences, Debbie or Donnie Downers, right? People who have negative

34:30outlooks on life. Don't allow them in your life. Don't talk to them. Don't be around them. Don't have

34:36anything to do with them. Only surround yourself with people who are positive and uplifting and they're

34:42not draining you. They're supporting you. These are some of the foundations of getting your grip,

34:51re-gripping your new life that you have lost. One thing I've noticed is whenever people leave,

34:58even the people I'm describing who were in the dark place, one thing that really helped them is

35:03becoming part of a network of people who are just like them, who have also escaped the group.

35:09Once you build these, it's basically building survivor stories. You have people who are

35:15talking about how they survived and their situation was, they thought it was a situation they could never

35:21break through, but they finally did. So they're a survivor of the cult and the cult trauma.

35:28And what I have found that helps the most, once you've been in one of these groups and you try to

35:34enter into the quote unquote, real world, you began to think, well, these people aren't going to

35:39understand me. I came from this cult world. Now I'm in this real world. And you start to see yourself

35:44different. You think it's a whole new world. I use the air quotes around real world because it's still

35:50the same world. You were just in a cult mindset that had an alternate, indoctrinated, alternate

35:56reality, basically. So sharing the survivor stories, I think is key to, to breaking through and escaping

36:05the mindset that your self worth and your self value is limited.

36:09Well, that's absolutely true. And once again, your example cuts across lines. People that were,

36:18it's called trauma bonding. People that have been through shared trauma experiences

36:24have a particular bond after they leave that environment. This is true of military, law enforcement,

36:31medical, you got paramedics, you know, somebody was talking to somebody who's also a paramedic that they

36:38don't know. They have an immediate trauma bond with that person. Because we travel the same road,

36:46we get each other in a way that nobody else can. And so in a cult and outside of a cult,

36:56when you got trauma, high trauma environments, you're going to get that trauma bonding.

37:02And it's invaluable. You see people, you know, from trauma, first responder type environments or

37:13military environments, you see them having their unions years and years later.

37:20Because they had trauma bond, even though they're not related at all, physically,

37:26maybe they didn't even know the person outside of the trauma bonding. So you're 100% right, John, that the

37:32trauma bond is real, and absolutely can have a very healing effect on the recovery process.

37:41Because it's a way of sounding, I'm not crazy. You're not crazy. That was nuts. Right? And instead of

37:49saying, I was wrong, maybe I overjudged them, maybe I was wrong. You've got somebody else to say,

37:55no, dude, that was crazy. What we went through should have never happened. And so you got validation,

38:02soundboarding. And that's how we find our level as humans by soundboarding off of other humans.

38:12So after you've left the group, you've gone through the trauma, you've started to experience the

38:18neglect that you experienced from family members, from cult members, and you start to cope with all

38:24of the things that we've talked about. There's another healthy part of this to overcoming this

38:29dark place mindset. And that is that you probably have a better phrase for what I'm describing. But

38:36this is essentially what I would call thought reform, you had a way of thinking when you're in the cult,

38:42and that way of thinking was very negative. I will never forget the conversation I had just

38:48not two months after leaving with another person who was in the same high demand group you and I were

38:53in. And I had known that they had left for some time, but I was having a conversation with them.

38:58And they said, you know, one of the reasons I left is because they were just so filled with negativity.

39:04You could not be around them, but what they were negative against somebody else,

39:08somebody who wasn't part of the group. And they said, I'm just not like this. I like people. I

39:13don't, I don't like to be condemning of others. And that's just one attribute of the way of thinking.

39:19But the cult indoctrination gives you a way of thinking that is unhealthy, very unhealthy.

39:25And so you have to teach yourself ways to think that are healthy. What do you recommend for this?

39:32That's a really excellent point, John. In my therapeutic practice, I often have people

39:39that have very negative self-talk. And they say mean things to themselves inside their head. They're

39:46very negative about their future accomplishments, or they're very negative about their past behaviors.

39:52They're very down on themselves. And usually control groups contribute to that negative self-talk

40:02because a control group is very condemnatory of probably your natural impulses as a human being

40:08and your natural needs and wants versus the control group needs and wants. And so people will

40:15develop a negative mindset and talk negatively to themselves and negatively to other people.

40:23Just as you described. So what I do is tell people to become self-aware of

40:32their self-talk. It's called self-talk awareness.

40:37And so what are you saying to yourself? Are you being kind and uplifting? Are you being positive?

40:44Or are you running yourself down and calling yourself a loser?

40:47Are you saying what an idiot you are and how you're stupid? You'll never mount anything.

40:53Because a lot of times these are simple reflections of what the control group told them.

40:59And they're repeating it inside their head, which is like allowing the control group to live rent-free

41:07inside your head. And so you want to be self-talk aware, meaning only allow yourself to say kind

41:14things to yourself and uplifting things to yourself, loving things. I encourage them to become their

41:20own best friend. I say, if you have a best friend who's going through a hard time in their life,

41:26would you talk down to them and tell them how stupid they are and what an idiot they are and you can't

41:30believe you're their friend? No. You would say kind things, uplifting things, how smart they are, how able

41:37they are, how they've been through a lot of stuff and overcome a lot of stuff. And they'll overcome this

41:41too. And you'd be very positive. So rather than talk badly to yourself inside your head, you want to

41:47become your own best friend. Talk kindly to yourself, support yourself, be positive about the future.

41:55Don't waste your time ruminating about the mistakes of the past. Don't waste your time projecting to

42:01dark futures. Usually the present is pretty decent. We're fed, we're clothed, we got air conditioning and

42:09transportation and stuff going on. So might as well think positively about the future and take positive

42:17lessons from the past rather than bring ourselves down. Another thing that often happens is

42:25people from cult groups or people in general, it's not mental health, they worry about things that are

42:34outside their control. And a lot of that wraps around what other people think of them. And that's

42:45especially true in the cult groups. And so we don't control what other people think of us. And so we have

42:53to focus only on things that are in our control. Because worrying about something that's out of our

43:00control, such as what other people think of us, such as what's, what's going to happen? Is my boss going

43:05to fire me? Does this person work like me or not? There's a lot of things that can increase anxiety,

43:13worrying about things that's outside of a person's control.

43:16So it's not mentally healthy to focus on things that are not in our control. So we want to always

43:23ask yourself, is the thing I'm frustrated about, whether somebody likes me, whether something's

43:28going to happen in the future, are these things that are in our control? If it's in your control,

43:34fix it and move on. But most of the time, the answer is going to be, no, it's not in my control.

43:38And so you want to immediately stop thinking about that, turn and focus on something that is in your

43:44control. There's a, you know, there's a prayer, actually, that's not, you know, denomination

43:55specific. It's often used in AA meetings, and has been for many years, called the serenity prayer.

44:03And the serenity prayer goes, God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

44:08stuff that's out of my control. Courage to change the things I can, stuff that's in my control.

44:14And the wisdom to know the difference. And that's a really good written definition

44:18of having an internal focus on control. Because at the end of the day, we can only control what we

44:28control. We do have quite a few things we do control, but there's a vast majority of things

44:33that humans waste our time and energy frustrated about that's not in their control.

44:38This is really important to me in working with people who have left the cults.

44:42Once you're in the group, even if you've never been in one of these groups, say you're just a family

44:48member, and you see a family member who has escaped one of these, and you start seeing that they just

44:53become different. They become just a little bit off. There are warning signs that people who are

44:59with these former cult members, and even the cult members, that they're going into this dark place.

45:05And I think it'd be good to at least mention what these symptoms look like, so that other people,

45:10if you see somebody like this, they probably need some help. And so not just encouragement,

45:15this is a dangerous thing that we're talking about. So I could go through the list that I have,

45:21and you probably have a better list, but there's this intense guilt that seems to come on people

45:26whenever they're getting in that dark place. And it's a self-directed guilt. Even though they

45:32escaped a cult, and a lot of the blame could be placed on the cult and the cult leader,

45:37they start to feel inwardly like it's their fault. They did something wrong.

45:42There's all of these different signs. What would you say are the top signs to look for?

45:46Depression. Right off the bat, if somebody seems depressed, they probably are. And talking to them

45:56about how are you feeling, reaching out to them. People seeming listless, without motivation,

46:06not enthusiastic or excited about anything, just want to sit and not talk, not engage. They're not

46:14not motivated. Hey, I'm going here. I'm going to do this. And normal people talk about their future plans.

46:21They don't have any future plans. If they're giving away their personal property. Oh, this is a watch.

46:28I won't need this anymore. And, you know, I just, I just don't think that, you know, I've got much purpose.

46:36Like the act of expressing helplessness and hopelessness, but especially giving away personal

46:44items. And, and if you're, if you're talking to somebody who's depressed and acting kind of listlessly,

46:53kind of giving away their goods or their property, talk to the other friends, because often people that

47:00are in that dark state will share a little bit with this friend and a little bit with this friend and a little

47:06bit with another friend. So if you know there are other friends, talk to them about your concerns about

47:13Billy seems really off lately. Have you talked to him? What did he tell you? And the two, and you can start

47:20putting things together. But I would say that the main thing is depression, listlessness, and especially

47:30giving property away. Those are humongous red flags. And sometimes they'll tell you, I'm thinking I've

47:36heard of myself. They'll come out and say it. So don't be afraid to address them. Don't be afraid to

47:42get them help. And don't be afraid you're going to make them mad by you getting them help. And they

47:47wind up getting big corrected or whatever. They're like, look what you did to me. Well, you're alive,

47:52right? Now you can make choices, but I can't help you if you're not on earth anymore.

48:00It's a really, really, really important science. So the most important part of this podcast, I think,

48:05is the need for suicide prevention and what to do to prevent something from happening. Like I said,

48:13when people go through this dark place and they're going through all of these stages and their self

48:19esteem, their self worth, their self value is at its rock bottom, there becomes a time when it is

48:26dangerous and there's a need to prevent something from happening. What can people do to prevent this?

48:32There are resources all over the place. And you can simply make a 911 call. A lot of communities have

48:41211 information centers where you can get tapped into helplines. You can receive mental health assistance

48:51immediately on the phone. You can be referred to mental health assistance. There's even online

48:59programs where you can go texting back and forth with a mental health professional. The resources,

49:06the phone numbers and the online resources, as well as the in person resources are astronomical. And so

49:16if anybody's in a bad place and wondering if hurting themselves, or if they have a friend who's

49:23warning about that, reach out, do not sit silent and don't be afraid to approach somebody. If you think

49:31they're in this state, ask them how they're doing, ask them what you can do. People that are in the

49:40hopeless and hopeless state usually desperately want to talk to somebody about it. They're hurting,

49:46they're in pain, they feel alone. And so they're happy to talk to somebody about it. And if you have

49:53somebody there, just stay with them and get on the phone and get help. You can call law enforcement or

50:00mental health professions to your location to do an assessment of the person, or you can do

50:05assessment of yourself. People can go to the just straight to a hospital, walk in a hospital and say,

50:11I'm thinking of hurting myself. As a retired law enforcement officer, I had people walk up to me

50:17and say, Deputy, I'm thinking of hurting myself. Could you please help me? And so I would take them

50:23to what's called a crisis center or to a hospital if they had substance abuse issues or something going

50:28at the time. Every state has laws that protect those that are thinking of self-harm. And here in

50:40Florida, it's called a Baker Act, but every state has laws where you can turn yourself in and get help,

50:47or you can turn yourself into a medical professional or a law enforcement officer and get help immediately.

50:54Like, turn around, search the guy, put him in my car, bring him down to the crisis center. That's how

51:02simple it was. And so the guy got the help that he needed. A lot of times, people that are living on

51:10the street or very street-adjacent, you might say, are often depressed. And there's often substance

51:19abuse issues involved and financial stress involved and a lot of lack of social supports.

51:27All those things together go lead somebody down a very dark path. And so to answer your question

51:35specifically, the person who's in need, please reach out. You can literally Google it on your phone,

51:44and you will immediately have phone numbers and access to help. You can call law enforcement.

51:51You can go to a medical facility. They will get you help because it's on them liability-wise if they

51:58refuse you help. And you, you know, you will hurt yourself if they refuse to help. So they will get

52:06you help. So I strongly, strongly encourage anybody struggling with this, reach out.

52:12Darrell Bock Absolutely. And the normalization of

52:17professional help. When you're in these groups, especially the one we came from,

52:22therapy of any kind is a lack of faith. And that's just, I mean, even for me still today,

52:27I no longer believe this. I no longer think this way. But in the back of my mind, that will always be

52:33there because it was programmed for 37 years that therapy is a lack of faith, but it is not a lack of

52:39faith. So I think normalizing the, normalizing mental health and normalizing the mental health

52:46profession, if you are working with one of the people who is a survivor, is very important so

52:52that they can get the help if they need it. So there, there's a lot we could discuss on that.

52:57Maybe that will be a podcast for the next time. Thank you so much for doing this.

53:01Darrell Bock It's been a pleasure, John. You're doing God's work. Keep it up.

53:05Darrell Bock Well, thank you so much. I'm going to

53:07put the link to the documentary in the description of the YouTube video, if you're watching it on

53:13YouTube or the podcast on Spotify, etc. So if you want to check out the documentary that Jesse is in,

53:19you can see it from the link that I'll put into the description. And hopefully we have given people

53:24the tools that can help them if they're in this dark place. And if they feel their self-value or

53:31their self-worth is at rock bottom, they know how to, how to get out of it, how to, how to cope with it.

53:38And if somebody is watching who knows somebody who's in this position, maybe we've opened their eyes

53:43that they should go help, help this individual get help if they need it. So very glad that you did this.

53:49And if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

53:54You can find us at william-branham.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation,

54:00you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

54:24So

From Hopelessness to Healing: Tools for Recovery from Cult Abuse | Jesse Collins | Overcoming Ep 475

Category

Transcript

Be the first to comment

Recommended