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Willard and Dibs discuss both Kyle Shanahan and George Kittle's greatness and wonder if a player or coach has to have a championship ring in order to be an all-timer.
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00:00I don't need to tell our audience I think Kyle Shanahan's pretty special coach but remove the
00:04Kyle of it all I just I wish somehow some way we could adjust the conversation and I'll give an
00:15example that's not even a coach to the judgment of players and coaches all coming down to whether
00:23they have a ring or not I was shocked actually yesterday the station clipped something when we
00:29were talking about George Kittle a guy's hitting 20 miles an hour eight months after Achilles
00:35surgery less than eight months after Achilles surgery and winning the game for the Niners with
00:40that play on Sunday and when you combine what he does as a blocker and a pass catcher and knowing
00:48that with health he's still got years left in his career I think George is squarely in the
00:54conversation or has a chance to squarely be in the conversation at the end of it all for best
00:59tight end of all time and it was amazing to me how many respondents in social media said he
01:06doesn't have a ring and I'm like what the hell does that have to do with tight end like I
01:14just
01:14I'm not going to like I mean is Kellen Winslow an all-timer is Kellen Winslow an all-timer he
01:22is in the
01:22I would say top 10 all-time and I don't think that he even made it to a Super Bowl
01:28correct I like I'm not
01:30saying don't wrap this into your assessment but I I get very fatigued by it being the only thing
01:38in other words it's an eliminator you're out of the conversation completely if you haven't won a
01:45championship I know a lot of people look at it that way I just to me that boy that removes
01:51so
01:52much of what we're watching I think it's just well for me anyway if you want to look at that
01:57as a
01:57quarterback marker okay I don't love it but it's the most appropriate measure of that position and I
02:04think about friend of the program Joe Thomas a guy who's out there raising Wagyu meat and he is we
02:11got to
02:11get that meat he is roundly considered one of the best left tackles in history he's either top five
02:18he's not beyond the top 10 for sure and he played a grand total of zero playoff games and we
02:25did this
02:25a couple weeks ago we had him on his winning percentage is below 300 and yet we don't look
02:30at Joe Thomas and think wow yeah I mean you never won Joe so like how can you be one
02:36of the best ever
02:36and you've been talking about George Kittle is maybe the best tight end ever and it's a conversation
02:42but for me the gold standard as far as I go back is Tony Gonzalez and Tony Gonzalez who was
02:49not a good
02:50blocker in the beginning he became a good blocker not elite but he's one of the eight guys to have
02:56a thousand catches and a hundred touchdowns receiving and he never won a Super Bowl so do we look at
03:01that
03:01and we say oh well I mean Tony you're not as good as Travis Kelsey because Kelsey's got three and
03:07you
03:07have none but the funny thing is is we get there we arrive there but we usually wait until they're
03:12not
03:12playing anymore I mean hey Bay Area do you like Barry Bonds I don't ever hear that I hear greatest
03:21player
03:21greatest hitter I've ever seen greatest player I've ever seen no ring and in fact for a good majority
03:28of first two-thirds of his career not only did he not win a ring he performed very poorly in
03:35the postseason
03:35that's a stat that's a stat but we don't have we don't go there Charles Barkley's funny so we're good
03:43here
03:43Dan Marino Brock Purdy's idol we're good here all-timer all-time great but there's certain people and this is
03:52what
03:52I don't like about it we cherry pick on it and I don't know if it's a likability thing or
03:57what what
03:58kind of brings you there where we're like I'm not talking about somebody's greatness if they haven't
04:05won the whole thing but we don't carry that to everyone we just carry it to some people Josh Allen
04:12is the best player in football and nobody blinks he doesn't even have to go to a Super Bowl but
04:20on the
04:20other hand we've got these other players and coaches for that matter who we really hesitate
04:26to put words like great or think about hall of fame or or whatever whatever is your marker we
04:34really have this hard time just accepting their awesomeness if they if they haven't won the whole
04:41thing if they don't have a championship for me if you look at that very thing and you look beyond
04:47the
04:47quarterback well then you're doing it wrong because we can all talk about whatever Andre Johnson
04:52and Megatron Larry Fitzgerald these are all great wide receivers who have gold jackets who never won
04:59the Super Bowl like Megatron I don't think ever even went to a conference championship game
05:04in Detroit because you were in Detroit and Fitzgerald had the one chance and they didn't win it and
05:09Andre Johnson similarly and like DeAndre Hopkins is a guy who is probably done now playing but he's
05:15another guy who's maybe on that hall of fame track but he never got to the highest level as well
05:21and
05:21so I think when we look at you know have you won a Super Bowl for me it's only appropriate
05:25in talking
05:26about quarterbacks and even at that it's not really that appropriate like John Elway until he won his two
05:33was John Elway a bum no he was already one of the top 20 of all time and then he
05:39he got a couple
05:40it's like all right Elway good job I get that it's a like of course it's a piece of the
05:44conversation
05:45it's icing um on the cake I like that it's icing and it's a lot of icing you know there's
05:51this
05:51conversation that went on and it's kind of died now because they've been gone for a handful of years
05:57except for old man Philip came back and played a couple games last year but there was that whole Eli
06:01Manning Philip Rivers thing and Philip Rivers was the better quarterback and his statistics are just
06:08through the roof they dwarf that of Eli Manning but Eli Manning won two rings and that is you call
06:14it icing I might call it an equalizer it's a catch-up for sure um I happen to think that
06:20both of them are
06:21going to end up in the hall someday I don't know if Philip's clock needs to reset now or it
06:26does yeah
06:26whatever so now he's got to wait but you know what Dan Marino is probably again the first name that
06:32comes to my mind but we could probably we could do this we could bounce around the league both current
06:39and former and talk about quarterbacks or head coaches for that matter who have achieved a certain
06:47something and therefore their reputation is minted to a degree at least um and then others I find it really
06:56like they get saddled by this they really it's like the conversation just how about this even
07:02amongst Niner fans there is more angst pointed at Kyle Shanahan for not winning a Super Bowl than Jim
07:09Harbaugh why why is Jim that you look back on Harbaugh and you're like dude that was great coach
07:16it's great coach I love Frank Gore like okay great coach I happen to know a ton of people in
07:22the
07:22mind an organization who think he is the biggest jerk who's ever lived and the whole thing imploded
07:30early because of his relationships um and you're looking at him now and he's running a clown show in
07:37Los Angeles yet four weeks ago we're having conversations about which coach you'd rather
07:42have with the Niners Harbaugh or Shanahan it's a blowout it's an absolute blowout in my mind look at
07:49just this one year one guy's 0-4 the other guy's 4-0 and it's not to say that Harbaugh's
07:55a bum because
07:56they're 0-4 but they're 0-4 and they are a big time disappointment and the Niners are number one
08:01in
08:01many people's power rankings and I know it's only four games in but if you want to look at the
08:07comparison I just was doing this as you were talking so 49ers coaches one guy has a 609 winning
08:14percentage in the regular year the other guy is 562 one guy is 10-4 in the playoffs and the
08:20other
08:20guy is 9-5 okay the first guy is Bill Walsh right and they won three Super Bowls and the
08:26second guy
08:27is Kyle Shanahan who has lost two Super Bowls and lost two championship games but in the regular year
08:34he's only a few games behind and in the playoffs Walsh was 10-4 Shanty's 9-5 so if Shanahan
08:41would have
08:42won those two Super Bowls and I know he didn't and it's too soon to say and he blew 10
08:47-point leads
08:47in both he did so that to me is kind of what you always talk about where we look at
08:52the one game
08:53and we judge people on the one game and can we do this in the other direction as well raise
08:57your hand
08:58if you think Nick Sirianni is a good coach he won a Super Bowl he's been to two I think
09:03he's laughable
09:04with the stuff he does I think you're wrong I know you do Dom yeah and I know you weren't
09:09out there
09:10when he made ridiculous calls last weekend because you followed Saquon to the locker room
09:13yeah Saquon was hurt Saquon can't get my guy you wouldn't want the trainers to be with him
09:18let's make sure the guy with the with the whatever the rain breaker um let's make sure he's with you
09:26because we wouldn't want anything to go wrong that's right and you don't know that my uh my actual
09:30name is uh say Dom it's kind of like Saquon but it's say Dom so I had to be with
09:33him
09:34I just yeah I'm big Dom right so Marv Levy's a bad coach and Nick Sirianni is a good one
09:39got it
09:39I don't I don't I don't see it that way I don't I don't see it that way based on
09:44uh you know one
09:45game yeah and uh you know Doug Peterson same thing yep you run the Philly special and you go ahead
09:50and
09:50win that game and so now you are amazing um Bill in Santa Clara hi let's go out to the
09:56phones a lot
09:57of you want to weigh in Natalie Nicosi in 17 minutes hi Bill thanks for uh for calling us what's
10:01up
10:03how you doing guys uh listen uh this question would have been better asked last year I think
10:09Kyle Shanahan answered that last year I think he's one of the greatest plug and play coaches
10:15ever to coach look at how many coaches are on the hot seat this morning they had like nine coaches
10:21on
10:21the hot seat what do they all have in common they lost people now I believe that because of the
10:28expanded schedule players don't have time to heal their bodies and I think if you run the numbers
10:33you will find that the 49ers are probably had less time off between the end of the season and when
10:39training camp starts so that a lot of these players just don't have time to heal their bodies and what
10:45Kyle Shanahan and Lynch have done brilliantly because they aren't looking for superstars out there that
10:51they can pick up and plug in they're looking for guys that will complement what they already have
10:56they got some of the greatest coaches I think in the NFL and they've proven over the last
11:0310-12 years that they are excellent because of necessity and what happens they say necessity is the
11:13mother of invention they've invented ways in order to stay relevant all of these other places including
11:19McVeigh have had stars and they've lost regular players not just stars they've lost
11:26a couple of stars but not at the level the Niners have so I think your question is excellent and
11:32I
11:32think that in time probably history will show that Shanahan is the best plug-and-play coach ever to
11:39coach and the Niners are lucky to have him and those people that say he hasn't won a Super Bowl
11:43shut up how many teams would take him in a heartbeat yeah mostly out of you know most of them
11:53yeah Bill thank you the respect around the league is something that I do watch too and I don't think
11:58people are blowing smoke I think a lot of people are amazed by him Joe Thomas you referenced that
12:04interview he came on a week or two ago and said that Kyle Shanahan is the greatest coach he's been
12:09around at any level throughout his entire career and he was only with Kyle for one year I was like
12:15whoa
12:15yeah and if you look at that one year Cleveland went 8-9 which was the best year that Cleveland
12:20had
12:21outside of Joe's rookie year where they I think went 10-6 and just missed the playoffs so yeah what
12:27Shanahan did for that offense and Joe Thomas is a highly informed Hall of Fame tackle like you get to
12:34see it and now you see it from afar and it makes sense um Sean Payton Kyle Shanahan shared a
12:41field
12:41together last week had that feel which coach do you want well I want the guy who's won a Super
12:47Bowl
12:48obviously do you duh and I'm just joking because I know you are it's not I mean it's not even
12:54close
12:54well it is close because I don't think it is I look at the teams and Sean Payton's got a
12:59team with
13:00a quarterback who is not Brock Purdy he's still trying to find his way and he's got a couple of
13:06running backs and they're trying to like not be terrible they're not as good as McCaffrey their
13:12tight ends not as good as Kittle and their wide receivers are not as good as Mike Evans even with
13:17a
13:17bad rib so I do think the Niners are better and I think that what Sean Payton's doing coming off
13:23of
13:23last year where he got that team all the way to the AFC championship game and if they don't lose
13:28their
13:29quarterback I think they beat New England so I think that Sean Payton is a terrific coach and right
13:34now he's dealing with he's dealing with a little bit of a stacked deck first place schedule you have
13:40to play the NFC West and you don't have exactly what you had last year no the four games they've
13:45played have all been against unbelievable like they've played the Chiefs they've played the Niners
13:49they've played the Jags those three teams have combined for one loss so far this year okay and
13:53then they play the Rams who are two and two but still the Rams Super Bowl favorites right I mean
13:59that's been Denver's schedule so far right impressed that they're two and two exactly impressed and so
14:03I look at Sean Payton and I think you know what he's doing because Bo Nix is still a work
14:08in
14:08progress and they don't really have a lot I think offensively going on and you've gone to Davis Webb
14:15as the new play caller and that takes time so I think that Denver is a team to keep your
14:20eye on
14:20come November December 408 says here's a better question are there any bad head coaches that have
14:26won a Super Bowl and again we kind of touched on that a couple of minutes ago maybe I'll stop
14:33short
14:33like just out of respect I won't call him a bad head coach I do not want Nick Sirianni coaching
14:39my
14:40football team and yes I think the bad outweighs the good no question in my mind you broke through
14:46you won you've been to a couple Super Bowls you've got good players you're clearly I don't know at
14:52times you're doing something right you've also overseen what feels like constant locker room drama
14:59um I do not for the life of me understand the in-game decision making um and you feel a
15:11little
15:11volatile sometimes but out of respect I'm not going to call him a bad head coach I would not want
15:18him
15:18on my favorite team I would not hire Nick Sirianni so that's how I'll answer that one I think that
15:23you
15:23could even look at Doug Peterson who was the head coach in Philadelphia and you know they won the
15:29bowl and then he went to Jacksonville and it was a brief two or three year stint and now he's
15:34not
15:34really in football anymore it's not to say that he was bad because in the moment like you went from
15:40Carson Wentz to Nick Foles and you called the Philly special and you won the Super Bowl so there had
15:45to
15:45be something there that doesn't indicate that you were quote bad but you can look at the track record of
15:50coaches like Andy Reid he didn't do it in Philly he went to Kansas City and he's won three and
15:56other
15:56coaches who have actually gone out and won like Sean Payton won in New Orleans and then now he's in
16:01Denver and they actually got back close to the bowl uh let's go Timothy in San Jose hi Timothy thanks
16:07for
16:07calling hey guys hey I'm having me on I think like the whole conversation of the greatest of all time
16:16uh I think it's for for the NFL uh it's different from the NBA because like it seems like it
16:23only
16:23goes for the quarterbacks and then for like uh Jim said I think you can welcome in the tight ends
16:28and
16:28the wide receivers in tonight's conversation just because it's not a it's more of a a team sport than
16:34basketball is and also Gibbs you got the best uh McVay uh impression thanks
16:42thanks Timothy um yeah he was and I mean that that conversation was about George Kittle
16:47um and that's a projection his career's not over yet um but again to see him performing at the level
16:57he's at after tearing his Achilles in January makes me think oh he's got very productive years left not a
17:06ton but he's got a shot at very productive years left and if those years go the way I think
17:13that
17:13they can go then he has a chance to get himself into that conversation that's what I said yesterday
17:18I'll say it again today he has an absolute chance to get himself into that conversation particularly
17:24with those who understand the nuances of what George does when he's not catching the ball
17:31he is I'll put his balance up against any tight end ever period it's a great balance and it's
17:39interesting because we don't often look at the balance because we all think about the fantasy
17:44football part of it and if you've got Travis Kelsey and you've had him for the past whatever years
17:49like he's a touchdown machine and yet he doesn't really block at that level I know Tony Gonzalez
17:55initially was not a great blocker he turned into a good blocker but George Kittle has been
17:59a force in the run game his whole career and he's a weapon in the past game so you talk
18:06about that
18:06two-way balance part of it too I do think is a tip of the cap to Shanahan because he
18:11devises a system
18:12that encourages everyone to block and George Kittle is a guy who he drafted his first year on the job
18:19and he found George I think in the fifth round and he saw somebody who could be that two-way
18:24threat
18:24and here he is 10 years in Gronk was a good blocker Jason Witten was a great blocker um you
18:30know you're
18:30right Tony Gonzalez for years was just a receiver Antonio Gates was just a receiver Travis Kelsey's
18:36pretty much a receiver uh but George Kittle does everything on a football field let's go to uh
18:42coach in Vallejo hi coach what's going on hey guys long time no talk to yes sir I enjoyed this
18:50conversation and you know it's a matter of style I mean let's talk football first when they talk about
18:56the greatest running backs in football all you hear is Jim Brown Barry Sanders and Smith has the
19:02most yards okay and the Super Bowls but he's never mentioned in the top three and I don't understand it
19:09but yeah maybe it's a matter of style you hear things like well Dallas had the office of line
19:14and they had the best team but I mean numbers do play a part here he has both and he's
19:20never mentioned
19:20the head of Brown who only played eight years and he's still considered the number one or Barry Sanders
19:26who hasn't won anything and people still put him ahead now also if you go to the NBA and I'm
19:32old
19:32enough I'm 71 years old I watched Bill Russell and Will Chamberlain play Bill Russell was not a better
19:39center than Will Chamberlain Bill Russell has the championships Bill Russell never stopped
19:44Will Chamberlain one-on-one we'll still score his 40 points a game against uh uh Bill Russell but
19:52Bill Russell is considered the best center by by most metrics but it's just a matter of style and from
19:57for some reason I don't understand it Emmitt Smith Bill Russell people like that you talk forwards in the
20:04NBA Dominique Wilkins numbers matches Larry Bird's I mean so does Alex English but Bird has the
20:10championships so therefore people put Bird as the best forward it's really a matter of guys I think
20:16a matter of who you like yep the style of play you know Barry Switzer has a Super Bowl is
20:21he a great
20:22coach no I mean he inherited Jimmy Johnson's team there's another great example yeah coach it's awesome to hear
20:29from you thank you I think you're you're spot on with regard to it comes down to personal choice
20:33and I also think people have a hard time sometimes with the complimentary nature of all this Emmitt
20:38Smith suffers a little bit from what Brock Purdy suffers from people look at Brock Purdy and they go
20:43but everything around you is awesome which is the same thing they say about Emmitt Smith as if the holes
20:48just kind of open themselves and he just walks through them just do me a favor and look at Emmitt
20:53when he was
20:53an Arizona Cardinal and look at those seasons and those numbers when he didn't have Novacek and Aikman
20:59and Michael Irvin he still was out there getting four plus a tote yep and he was an old guy
21:03by then too
21:04correct
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