00:00Jason Lloyd joins us right now on the Wise Heart Right.
00:02We Make It Right call Kyle Right hotline.
00:04He's a columnist for the athletic.
00:07Hi.
00:08Hi.
00:09Deshaun Watson starts on Sunday.
00:12Does he finish the game on Sunday?
00:19Yeah, I think he does.
00:20That took you a long time to come to that conclusion.
00:23Well, I just wanted to – I hadn't really – I don't know why I hadn't thought of that,
00:27but I hadn't really thought of that.
00:28I just wanted to think about it for a second.
00:30Yeah, I think he finishes the game.
00:33I don't know.
00:34I've never understood – I've never understood this whole idea that, like,
00:39he has to start the road games to start the year.
00:43Like, somebody explain that to me.
00:44Shador played plenty on the road last year.
00:46Started on the road last game of season one.
00:49Like, why suddenly is he not capable of starting road games?
00:53Well, I don't think he has to.
00:54It was like, well, if they're going to shake the fruit out of the Deshaun Watson tree,
00:59it's easier to do it on the road than obviously at home.
01:03Why?
01:03Why do you have to shake anything out of that tree?
01:06There's nothing left in the tree.
01:07We've known for four years there's nothing left in the tree.
01:09Well, yeah, but you've got a fresh set of eyes on him there, and here we are.
01:12Well, guess what?
01:13There's still no fruit.
01:14Yeah, Jason, what is the best explanation as to why he is starting?
01:20I don't have one.
01:22The only explanation is they're telling you what they think about Shador.
01:27Like, that's the only explanation.
01:28Because if they believed in him, they'd have to play him.
01:31So, Jackson, I've asked the question.
01:32If Jackson Dart was here in Cleveland, who would have started week one?
01:37Well, Jackson Dart.
01:37There's no question.
01:38Because people think he's being told he has to start.
01:41Todd Munkin has to start to extract whatever is left.
01:45No.
01:46Whatever because of the money.
01:48No.
01:48If they had a quarterback on the roster that they felt was the future quarterback,
01:52they would not be – like, they wouldn't do this.
01:55Like, they – I told you guys before, and I still believe it.
01:59I do think that the blowback has been worse than they anticipated.
02:03But I think they knew it was going to be bad, and they chose to do it anyway.
02:08So, like, what does that tell you?
02:10So, if they had one – if they believed in any of these guys that they thought were
02:15in the future besides him, I think he'd be out there.
02:18And they don't.
02:19And that's why I do think that, as backwards and messed up as it is, I do think Todd thinks
02:25that Sean gives the best chance to win it.
02:27Now, ultimately, is he right?
02:29I don't know.
02:30Because, you know, I think I'm not breaking any new ground here.
02:33I think everybody's under the assumption Shador's going to play probably soon as
02:36later.
02:36I just don't – I've never understood why we had to go through this.
02:42It never made sense to me, unless they're just – they're just telling you what they
02:45think about Shador.
02:46That's really all it is.
02:49I mean, I wish I could, but I got nothing.
02:51Yeah.
02:52I wish I could say – I wish I could argue that, but I'm sure plenty of people call
02:57in now and argue that, but I got nothing realistic.
03:01But, yeah, I mean –
03:02He's like, come on.
03:04But, like, your point about Jackson darts 100%.
03:08Tyler Shuck in New Orleans.
03:09Would they start Tyler Shuck or would they start Deshaun?
03:11Of course he would start Deshaun.
03:13And I've had people say, well, look at Fernando Mendoza.
03:16He's not – okay, well, Mendoza's a rookie.
03:19Shador played in seven games last year.
03:21He started six games.
03:23It's not like he hadn't played before.
03:25He's got six-game body of work.
03:27You're not going to – if he's a quarterback of the future, you're not going
03:30to go back and bench him after he started six games last year.
03:33Like, you don't go backwards to go – like, no.
03:36If they believed in him, he'd be out there.
03:39But I think the issue is we've all known for three, four years that Deshaun
03:44Watson's not Deshaun Watson any longer.
03:47And so even if you thought Shador wasn't ready, wasn't that good, he's a fifth-round
03:52pick.
03:52It's not like you have an enormous investment in him.
03:54It's not like you're worried about ruining him for the future.
03:56Why would you not have just played him from the get-go and even tailored your
04:00quarterback competition around him?
04:02Because Todd thought Deshaun was better.
04:04That's why.
04:05That's the only answer.
04:07And I truly don't believe it has anything to do with ownership interference of
04:13got to get an investment.
04:14I don't believe that.
04:16We've talked about that before.
04:18I do believe that the Browns absolutely tell the head coach, you're in charge of the
04:23quarterback to upcharge it.
04:24Like, you can't start mandating to the head coach who can and cannot play a quarterback.
04:31I just don't believe that that's happening.
04:34I did think at one point last year that might be happening, and I never found any evidence
04:39to it.
04:39So I just have to go by what I know.
04:42Well, Jason, like, you and I and Lima are all in lockstep.
04:46We all agree with each other about that.
04:47But then, you know, that doesn't help fans' opinion of Todd Munkin then.
04:52I mean, we're already off to a real bad start on that one, bud.
04:54Well, and that's why, you know, I wrote after the game, like, how many more people have to
04:59pay the bill for this?
05:01Because now Todd's gotten dragged.
05:02Todd had nothing to do with this.
05:04And now he's been dragged into it.
05:05Because they should have cut him last year.
05:08They should have cut him after the Achilles.
05:09Don't tell me they couldn't.
05:11They could.
05:12They could.
05:13They knew they weren't going to be very good.
05:14They could have ate that.
05:15Exactly.
05:16They could have ate that cost then instead of having to deal with all this now.
05:19Yep.
05:19That's exactly it.
05:20And that's what I was screaming a year ago.
05:23Cut him.
05:24There's no point in doing this.
05:26Because now look what you've done.
05:27Now you've just, you continue to poison the franchise.
05:29You can't get, you know, you've got these young players that you should be excited about.
05:35And Fann and Boston and Concepcion and Quinshawn and Fano.
05:39You've got, you know, you've got a core of young, offensive, talented players.
05:44How can you possibly get a read on them with the quarterback situation the way that it is?
05:48And if you knew you weren't going to be very good for a couple years, swallow the pill,
05:54cut him, take the cap hits, and move on.
05:58But they chose not to do that.
05:59And they kept pushing it down the road and kept pushing it down the road.
06:02And here we are.
06:03And now you've got another head coach who's got this thing tied around his neck.
06:07And yeah, and now, you know, fans will sour on him and turn on him because of this.
06:12And it's, it's, it's, it's, it never should have gotten to this point.
06:15I told you guys, we talked about this in December.
06:17And I said, if they run him back out there, they deserve everything they're going to get.
06:21Well, here we are.
06:23Jason Lloyd joining us on the show.
06:24So there's been two big scenarios about the Browns over the last, how many years that
06:29all three of us have agreed on.
06:31And it has been against the grain.
06:33One is that Andrew Barry led the charge to go after Deshaun Watson.
06:37Like, like the ownership guaranteed the money.
06:39They decided, okay, well, the guy we have is going to lose his mind.
06:42We're going to guarantee the money.
06:43Okay.
06:43We've all been in agreement with each other on that one.
06:46The other one is this, where Todd Munkin makes that decision.
06:48Do you think though, that, you know, you mentioned two years ago, is that something I could possibly
06:54put on ownership?
06:55Because, you know, you go back to 16 and 17 where it was, there was a malaise.
07:01It was bad.
07:01And people weren't, I don't know if people were mad.
07:03They were just like, they didn't care.
07:06And I think that maybe he was like, we're never going back to that.
07:10We can never go back to that.
07:11And maybe Andrew saw, it's like, hey, this is, this is a mess.
07:15This is a sunk cost.
07:16We got to get out from under.
07:17It's like, no, we have to, we have to kick it down the road.
07:19We have to try to compete.
07:20We still have miles.
07:21We still have Joel.
07:22We still have these guys.
07:24And, you know, you won eight games in two years.
07:27Like, was there anything that were like Joe Flacco, maybe fooled him into thinking, you
07:30know, if we could just get this guy back on track, I don't know.
07:34I'm looking for answers here.
07:35I'm looking for something.
07:38Yeah.
07:38I, I don't have, I can't tell you that.
07:41Like it, it sounds good in theory and there may be something to it, but I don't have any
07:44evidence to support or deny that.
07:47I, I don't know.
07:48Um, knowing how they operate, I, I tend to think that this was a decision of, I don't
07:55think that Andrew did want to move on from him.
07:57Like, you know, he's, he's kind of hung in there in the past on, on guys and on decisions.
08:02And, you know, I, the, one of the criticisms that I've had is just that there's no human
08:07touch to roster building.
08:09Like they just don't have a human touch.
08:11It's all done on spreadsheet.
08:13And this feels like very much like a spreadsheet decision.
08:16And again, like how many more people, how many more you lost miles because of this, you
08:22fired AVP because of this coming off a playoff run with five different quarterbacks.
08:25You went to the playoffs and you fired the offensive coordinator and you said, that wasn't
08:28good enough.
08:29And you brought in Dorsey and that was a disaster.
08:30And he fired him and he fired the head coach.
08:33Like how, how many more people have to take the hit on this?
08:37And you lost Jim Schwartz.
08:38And you lost Jim Schwartz.
08:40That's exactly right.
08:41It's been, it's just been one disaster after another.
08:44All right.
08:45We've Jason, we've seen people sound the alarm about how ugly the home game could be.
08:50The home opener used to be a cherished game used to be an automatic sellout.
08:54I've seen like 5,000 tickets are still available in that stadium.
08:59So what I'm nervous about is that the Browns have put the fans in a situation where the
09:04fans are going to end up looking bad.
09:07Because I can tell you what the headlines are going to be if things get out of hand and
09:11it's going to be Cleveland did this again.
09:14Yeah.
09:15Yeah.
09:15There's some, there's some truth to that.
09:17But, you know, early on I was in the camp of, I thought Deshaun would start the first
09:24three or four games.
09:26I don't know anymore.
09:28I mean, Sunday was so bad.
09:29If it, if it looks like that again, I don't know how he can continue down this path.
09:34I just, I don't know.
09:36So I don't know how long the leash is.
09:38I don't know when they would make the move.
09:40You know, I hope it's better.
09:41I hope that, you know, he catches some sort of rhythm.
09:46Just, just for the sake of the fans.
09:48I hope, and you know, the end of game numbers were so deceiving to be there and to watch
09:53it.
09:54He, he was totally lost and he threw the pick.
09:57I was sitting next to Zach in the press box and he threw the pick and Zach said, that's
10:01the same pick he threw in training camp all the time.
10:04Like it was the same thing.
10:06And just the, the, the, the unawareness of the pocket.
10:10I just, it was so bad that I don't know how you can continue doing that.
10:14If it, if it looks that bad again, uh, this Sunday and, and, and what a game for, you
10:19know, against Baker and all that that represents and, and, and that whole thing, it'd be the
10:24one and only time that they went off head to head.
10:26Um, if it's, you know, if he pulls it together and he plays moderately decently, maybe they
10:32run it out another week and, and I don't know what happens at the home opener, but yeah,
10:35it's, it's, it's, it's discouraging.
10:38It's frustrating.
10:38And I just, I feel badly for the fans.
10:40Yeah.
10:41I got a little bit of pushback on that the other day.
10:43Cause I'm like, you know, this is Baker's going to try to run it up.
10:46Like they called the dogs off and I go, if they get a chance to try to run it up,
10:50they're
10:50going to try to run it up.
10:51And I was like, well, they play it against each other in 2022 ago, not against Deshaun
10:56Watson.
10:56He didn't.
10:56Nope.
10:57That's exactly right.
10:58And it was not against Deshaun.
11:01That was against Jacoby.
11:03Um, you know, I think Baker was still probably a little bit rattled.
11:07I think he's probably in a better head space now than he was then.
11:10Uh, yeah, this is, this one, he's, he's say whatever he wants.
11:14You and I both know he's looking forward to this.
11:17Is there a chance he overcompensates?
11:19Cause you remember the last time he tried to, he wanted to run, he was out there on
11:23purpose, trying to run it up against Detroit.
11:25Like they were, you know, like they were DeVry and it's like, well, this is still a pro
11:30football team.
11:31And they almost lost that.
11:33I mean, he's a different person than he was now.
11:36He's more mature.
11:37He's got a family, like the whole thing.
11:39Maybe it's different.
11:41He, there's a lot, there's a lot of inconsistency with him that has been away his entire career.
11:46Like that's a big reason why the Browns were cautious to invest in them.
11:50And I've said it a thousand times.
11:52It's worth repeating again this week.
11:54I totally understand why they made the decision that they made.
11:57It's been an absolute catastrophe, but completely get where they were coming from and why they
12:01were cautious and hesitant to invest the money in him at the time.
12:05Um, um, they were desperate.
12:07They didn't see a lot of options.
12:08They felt like they had a, a roster that was good enough to compete, except at the most
12:13important position.
12:14And they saw a guy who had performed like a top 10 quarterback out there and desperate
12:18people do desperate things.
12:20And it's obviously been a catastrophe, but I completely understand why they did what they
12:25did.
12:25I just think that they should have cut off, cut off ties.
12:28But as soon as you realize this isn't going to work, this is a disaster, you pivot, you
12:33figure it out.
12:34And that's, that's where, you know, I take issue with the way that they've handled this.
12:38Are the guardians, Jason Lloyd joining us on the show, are the guardians quote unquote
12:41magical?
12:44Can you be magical when you're 500?
12:46I don't know.
12:47Like they got a, last night was great.
12:50I shut the game off.
12:51I admit it.
12:52I thought it was over.
12:53I was frustrated.
12:53I shut the game off.
12:54How dare you?
12:55The final score was like, yeah, I know.
12:57And then I'd go back and watch the replay.
12:59Um, you know, this is just, this is, this is the fun part of who they are.
13:03They've got an unbelievable culture.
13:05They're never out of it.
13:06I should have known better than I turned the game off last night.
13:08Um, I like the, the, the whole magic thing though.
13:11I think you got to be a little bit better than 500 during that, but listen, now's when
13:15it counts.
13:16They keep winning these games down the stretch and then to October, we can, we can revisit
13:20that.
13:21Uh, they, they, it's so crucial to win the division and get the first round by for this
13:25team.
13:26Um, you know, I've kind of thought I've hung in there all year with them and thought
13:30that they would win the division.
13:31I just thought they were better than Chicago.
13:34And, um, I still, but what a massive, massive, massive game today.
13:38They, they, this is, I don't play the must win game unless it's truly a must win, but
13:42this is pretty close to a must win to, in order to, to take the lead on them.
13:47I think they lost the tiebreaker already.
13:49I think they need the suite to get the tiebreaker.
13:51I have to double check that.
13:53It's a, yeah.
13:54So they've already lost that.
13:56So this is a massive game to win this game this afternoon with domestic on the mound.
14:00Jason, thank you for the time.
14:02Take care, man.
14:04We didn't argue at all.
14:05That's still fun.
14:06What's there to argue about?
14:08Normally we find something.
14:10What do you want to pick a fight with me about anything?
14:15No, I'm good.
14:15Let's, let's leave hugging and hugging it out.
14:17Well, you got 40 minutes.
14:18If you think of something, you can call back and okay.
14:22I got no problem.
14:23All right.
14:24Jason Lloyd.
14:26Thanks to him.
14:27I run the athletic.
14:28He's on the wise heart.
14:29Right.
14:29We make it right.
14:30Call Kyle.
14:31Right.
14:31Hotline.
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