- 1 week ago
John invites Darla to share her story about being kicked out of church, spiritual abuse, church discipline, and the long process of rebuilding faith after painful experiences in church life. Darla discusses growing up in church, entering charismatic circles, becoming involved at Harvest Rock Church, and later reevaluating teachings about authority, obedience, forgiveness, covenant relationship, and fear of missing the move of God.
This conversation explores how church systems can mishandle difficult situations, why children must be protected, and how people can begin healing after spiritual trauma. Darla also reflects on forgiveness, counseling, learning to hear God personally, and holding on to faith in Jesus after years of pain and disillusionment.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
04:07 Darla’s Background and Journey Into the Charismatic Movement
07:23 The Danger of Being on the “Cutting Edge” of God
10:07 Trusting the Church as a Spiritual and Social Foundation
12:20 A Son’s Disclosure Changes Everything
14:04 Church Response vs. Civil Authorities
16:27 “Believe the Best” and the Problem of Silencing Questions
18:23 Spiritual Covering and Protecting Leadership
20:37 Rebuilding Faith After Being Kicked Out
22:04 Kicked Out of a Second Church
24:08 Five-Fold Ministry: Service or Governance?
26:24 Learning to Hear God for Yourself
32:50 Fear of Missing the “Move of God”
35:58 When Questioning Leadership Becomes Questioning God
38:29 The Pressure to Be “Shiny and Happy”
42:22 Gossip, Silence, and Accountability
44:11 Half-Truths and the Need to Protect Children
46:02 Forgiveness, Reconciliation, and Restoring Trust
48:18 Advice for Healing After Being Kicked Out
50:22 Darla’s Book and Final Thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
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– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
This conversation explores how church systems can mishandle difficult situations, why children must be protected, and how people can begin healing after spiritual trauma. Darla also reflects on forgiveness, counseling, learning to hear God personally, and holding on to faith in Jesus after years of pain and disillusionment.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
04:07 Darla’s Background and Journey Into the Charismatic Movement
07:23 The Danger of Being on the “Cutting Edge” of God
10:07 Trusting the Church as a Spiritual and Social Foundation
12:20 A Son’s Disclosure Changes Everything
14:04 Church Response vs. Civil Authorities
16:27 “Believe the Best” and the Problem of Silencing Questions
18:23 Spiritual Covering and Protecting Leadership
20:37 Rebuilding Faith After Being Kicked Out
22:04 Kicked Out of a Second Church
24:08 Five-Fold Ministry: Service or Governance?
26:24 Learning to Hear God for Yourself
32:50 Fear of Missing the “Move of God”
35:58 When Questioning Leadership Becomes Questioning God
38:29 The Pressure to Be “Shiny and Happy”
42:22 Gossip, Silence, and Accountability
44:11 Half-Truths and the Need to Protect Children
46:02 Forgiveness, Reconciliation, and Restoring Trust
48:18 Advice for Healing After Being Kicked Out
50:22 Darla’s Book and Final Thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Darla Melanson, author
00:46of The Things I Learned After Being Kicked Out of Church.
00:49Darla, it's good to have you on and to share your story of being kicked out of church, as
00:54the title says.
00:56I'm going to be open and honest with everyone.
00:58This is a really difficult story, difficult for me, and also difficult to get out there.
01:05To be fully transparent, this story, I listened to it as we recorded and talked through it,
01:11and I realized that this was one of the more important stories that I have done, and it
01:16really, really needs to get out there.
01:18The news needs to get out there that we need to protect our children.
01:22Just pure, plain, and simple, we must protect the children.
01:26The problem with this story is there are so many details that would trigger all of the
01:32red flags in all of the social media networks.
01:35YouTube, for example, if we were to release this as recorded, it would not get the attention
01:42that it deserved because YouTube would actually limit it.
01:44The story is so difficult.
01:46So to be fully transparent, I'm actually going back and I'm re-recording segments, and I'm
01:51using different words so that it doesn't trip all of the red flags, and trying to protect
01:57with some legal risk as well.
01:59So there'll be sections where you may hear Darla talking, and her voice may jump.
02:04I may cut a word here or there out just so that the story can get out.
02:09This is really, really important, so I'll open by saying this, this is a difficult story
02:16that's talking about spiritual abuse, church discipline, alleged abuse of minors, et cetera.
02:24A lot of details that trip all of the red flags, and instead of using that phrase, I'm going
02:32to say simply, we must protect our children.
02:34And when you hear me say that, you know exactly what she's talking about, even if I cleaned
02:41it up for the content.
02:43And also understand, this is her personal story.
02:46This is her story.
02:47This is the things that she endured as she went through this.
02:51So she's sharing her own memory, interpretation, and experience.
02:56And I'm not trying to do any sort of legal assessment.
02:59All I'm simply doing is I want her story to get out there.
03:02So I'm being very cautious as how it's released so that people can hear the story and the
03:09name she's mentioning, et cetera.
03:10She's going to be talking about Chaon and Harvest Rock Church, very big churches in the New Apostolic
03:16Reformation.
03:18And I wasn't there, but this is her story.
03:21This is something that really needs to get out.
03:24So the purpose of this is to get the story out, to show the patterns that exist, not targeting
03:31the specific individuals, because the churches that she mentions, the names that she mentions,
03:37this is part of a broader system that the system itself is flawed.
03:43I'm just going to say it like that.
03:45The system is flawed.
03:46Pia and I have been breaking down that system.
03:49And I think it's time for reform.
03:51I think we do need to protect the children.
03:54And so with that, I'll let you introduce yourself and, you know, tell everybody a little bit
04:01about yourself and we'll get into the journey.
04:02But be aware, full transparency, I'm going to be editing some of the statements.
04:07Thank you, John.
04:08I'm so blessed to be here today.
04:10I've really appreciated listening to your podcast.
04:14Pia, who is a friend of mine who's been on regularly, she and I met actually at the same
04:20church that we both ended up leaving.
04:24And a little bit of my history, I'm a PK.
04:28My dad was a pastor, Southern Baptist pastor.
04:32I accepted the Lord as my Lord and Savior at the age of seven.
04:38So I grew up in the church.
04:40The church was very much a part of my life, the culture of the church, what is expected
04:47in the church.
04:48And as I understand it, your father witnessed a situation where we really need to protect
04:53our children.
04:54How did that impact you?
04:55He set a foundation for my expectations of the church.
05:02I went off to California Baptist College, which is now California Baptist University in
05:08Riverside, California.
05:09That's where I met my husband.
05:11We have celebrated 45 years of marriage.
05:14Shortly after we got married, he joined the military because he was having a hard time
05:18getting a job.
05:20And while he was in the military, I went through a very personal traumatic time.
05:27And I had to come to the place that I said, okay, Lord, I'm going to start at square one
05:31with you.
05:32I believe that you love me.
05:36And shortly after that, I experienced a baptism of the Spirit and the Holy Spirit.
05:43I know it's kind of the opposite of your story, starting with the charismatic side, the Pentecostal
05:51side, and then moving towards the more traditional.
05:55And my story was a little bit of the opposite.
05:59I started out very traditional and then experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit, where I basically
06:05said, Lord, I'll start at square one with you.
06:08You teach me what you want to know.
06:10And then I experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
06:13And when my husband got out of the military, instead of going back to the Baptist church that
06:20he had accepted the Lord in our local area, we actually, I was in nursing school at the
06:28time.
06:28I felt, while we were in college, I felt called to nursing.
06:32So when we moved back to the Pasadena area, I enrolled in Pasadena City College to work
06:41on my RN degree.
06:42And that's where I met Lou Engel and got involved with the church that he and Cheon pastored at
06:51the time called Abundant Life.
06:53And then they left the PDI, that was under the PDI church movement, which is now Sovereign
07:00Grace.
07:01And they left that and went out on their own.
07:05And the church that they pastored, currently known as Harvest Rock Church, my husband and
07:11I went with them to Harvest Rock.
07:14And that's where I met Pia.
07:15And that's where I experienced things I never, never, never anticipated ever experiencing in
07:23a church.
07:23So before we recorded this, you sent me some documents and study materials, which I've
07:28been looking through.
07:29And one of them really stood out to me that I don't know that I've talked about on the
07:33podcast.
07:33And it is significant.
07:35You were talking about, and I think this might have been when you were in Cheon's church,
07:39but you said, when a movement claims to be the cutting edge of God, it turns into an
07:45issue.
07:45I can't remember your exact phrasing, but that's exactly true.
07:49All of these movements, well, they're even called movements because they present themselves
07:54as they're on the cutting edge.
07:55This is something new.
07:56This is something reforming.
07:58And in the end, they resurrect old heresies and call it new.
08:02So they're putting this big branding on something that's usually pretty bad.
08:06But it is the true.
08:08Whenever you are in a group that claims to be the cutting edge, it's almost impossible
08:13to question without the appearance of being rebellious.
08:17Everybody else is doing the new thing, which you're starting to question.
08:21They see it as new.
08:22Most of the people aren't critically thinking about it.
08:25And then suddenly you realize, wait a minute, something's off here.
08:27And then that's whenever things turn really bad.
08:31That's exactly what happened to me.
08:33Right, right.
08:34That is, when I met Che and Lou and first attended the church that they were pastoring,
08:40that I did hear that.
08:41And the first thing that so drew me to them was claiming we're on the cutting edge of what
08:46God is doing.
08:47And I look at that now and I think God is not limited to, he doesn't limit himself to
08:54one person or one movement.
08:56He is so involved in every life.
08:59He really, he says he, the scripture that he doesn't want any to perish.
09:07I believe, as I've seen in my own life, how he's pursued me, how he's pursued my children,
09:13especially after the trauma of being kicked out of church.
09:16He pursues absolutely every life.
09:19And he is involved trying to draw that person to them.
09:23He is just involved in the underground church in China and the Nigerians that are dying for
09:31him, being martyred for him.
09:33He is just as involved in their life as he is in every single life, I believe, in the
09:38United States.
09:39He is involved because he loves his creation.
09:43And to claim that you are the one thing that God is doing on the earth is just arrogance
09:50personified.
09:53It's unreal.
09:54And yet at the time, my hungry heart just drew to that because I want to be involved in what
10:00God is doing.
10:01I really wish that I had been wiser, but I've learned a lot.
10:07So I'll get into some of the things I learned.
10:09Um, anyway, uh, we were actually with, uh, Che on and, and Sue and Lou Engel and their
10:16church for 15 years.
10:19We were very much involved.
10:21And I remember telling the Lord how, how thankful I was that he put us into a church that would
10:30always be there for us.
10:31And, and that was our support and our social, uh, social foundation and that, you know, no
10:38matter what happened, they would be there and I would be able to talk with them and they'd
10:42have our back.
10:43And, and then in early 2021, um, we had a guest pastor and he, Richard and I, my husband were
10:53actually both on staff at the time.
10:55I had left nursing to be Sue Ann's personal assistant.
11:00My husband was the facilities manager and we oversaw the nursery departments and we were
11:08really involved in everything that went on in the church.
11:12And then there was a guest pastor.
11:14And I remember where I was standing.
11:15I was coming up from the nursery, getting ready to go sit in the auditorium with my husband.
11:20And the guest pastor was speaking about the thing about deception is you don't know you're
11:25deceived.
11:27And I'm, and I said, well, Lord, I'm, I'm not deceived.
11:30And the Holy, I felt the Holy Spirit said, are you sure?
11:33And I'm like, it kind of took me back.
11:36And I'm like, well, of course I'm not deceived.
11:39I'm in among your people.
11:40I'm in your church.
11:41We're worshiping you.
11:43And again, the Holy Spirit just nudged my heart and said, are you sure?
11:47And so I said, well, all right, God, if I'm deceived in something, I give you permission
11:53to show me.
11:56Okay.
11:56Well, um, he did in a big way.
12:02Um, May 21st of 2020, uh, 2001, May, this was 2001, 25, 26 years ago.
12:10Um, that was early in the year, I think probably about March.
12:14And then in May 20, on May 21st, my son came to me, it was in the morning, he had
12:22just woken
12:22up and he said he had a really good dream.
12:24And I said, okay.
12:25And I sat down to listen to him and he talked about the song light the fire again and how
12:31he felt free and whole inside.
12:33And I was just, I said, honey, I think that's great.
12:37And then he said, but the first part of the dream wasn't good.
12:40And I said, well, what was it?
12:42And he started expressing to me, he was, remember he was 10 years old, explicit sexual material
12:48that he never should have had any idea of.
12:53He, um, and I, I, I was really confused and I said, oh, that's terrible.
13:00I'm really sorry.
13:01You had that dream.
13:02And I have no idea why.
13:04And that was the first time that you really learned that we must protect our children
13:09in these movements.
13:10We must protect our children.
13:12What did that make you feel?
13:14I felt gut punched.
13:15I'm like, I had homeschooled my children.
13:17I thought I was protecting them.
13:19The only time I'd ever let them just be free and run wild was at church thinking they were
13:26safe.
13:26And that had not happened.
13:29Um, so the process of working through that, um, with the church and with our family, it
13:39was a six month process.
13:41And at the end of it, Che and Sue told us that we were free to go.
13:45They would release us to find healing somewhere else.
13:48Um, it was, it was really a struggle because I had never imagined that, um, church would ever
13:55treat us that way.
13:56I thought they were my social foundation that would just always be there.
14:01Um, we tried to work through the issues with them.
14:04And so you learned that number one, above everything else, the church really needs to protect our
14:09children.
14:11That was the first time, as I understand it, that you started to work with people outside
14:15the church, authorities, et cetera.
14:17What was it like?
14:18What was the difference between working with the authorities and working with the church?
14:22We felt the actual more pastoral care from the civil authorities than we did from our
14:28own pastors.
14:28They told us, don't talk about it and just forgive.
14:32I don't know if you've been through a lot of people don't realize how damaging those two
14:41directives were to not talk when you're hurting inside, like your world is falling apart.
14:48And, and then to, um, just squash the, just forgive.
14:53It's like, well, I do want to forgive, but I don't know that I can get there right now.
14:58I need to work toward it.
15:00But so my book deals with not only the just forgive and the, and the don't talk about it
15:08directive, but also deals with other things that I began to reevaluate after we were kicked
15:13out, the teachings that they taught us to live by.
15:16Now, some of them were good, although I now see that they were more a manipulation than
15:23they were an honest teaching.
15:26I remember Che teaching us about, you know, servanthood and having a servant heart and
15:33a teachable spirit.
15:34And I think those are good things.
15:38But now I see he just wanted them to you to be that way towards him.
15:43He wasn't exhibiting that towards other people.
15:46I have personally witnessed in churches where a really difficult situation was happening,
15:51something that really needed to be addressed.
15:54And in all other areas of life, whether you're in business, whether you're at school, usually
16:00there's a process that people follow.
16:02And it's a standard process.
16:03It's not even anything anybody needs to learn.
16:06You just know the right thing to do.
16:07And you go through that process.
16:09In some of these churches, what happens is they over spiritualize everything.
16:12And in some cases, they fully spiritualize everything so that the process becomes neglected.
16:19Were there other situations where they started talking, I don't know, doctrinally speaking
16:24instead of actually functionally doing something?
16:27The other one was believe the best.
16:29That one really hit me pretty hard after we got kicked out of church because I decided I
16:34didn't want to be like a lot of people that left the church and just leave and leave it
16:38up to the pastors to explain why we left.
16:41So I called the people that we were closest to and told them why we were leaving.
16:46And while I was talking on the phone to my friend, she was relaying the conversation to
16:51her husband on the other side of the phone.
16:53And he goes, well, wait, wait, we need to believe the best.
16:56And all of a sudden it hit me.
16:57It's like, okay, well, if you're going to believe the best about Che, what are you going
17:01to believe about me?
17:03Where's the truth in believing the best?
17:06And so I also addressed that in my book.
17:08We need to believe the truth.
17:10And we're only going to get that if we go to Jesus and talk to him first.
17:14So I address many of these things in the book.
17:18And I feel like I'm actually started a second book that I believe the Lord wants me to address
17:24some more of the things that I discussed in the book.
17:28A lot of what you described, we had, but we didn't have the same names for it.
17:35It's odd because they created the structure, which was an authoritarian structure.
17:39They called it the five-fold ministry.
17:41And basically, you've got the guy at the top and then it goes through the layers.
17:46And that evolved later into the shepherding movement, et cetera.
17:49But what it was really creating was this bubble around each entity.
17:55And in this bubble, you had the touch not the God's anointed, touch not the prophet,
18:00this kind of verbiage.
18:02Essentially, what they're saying is you can't question the leadership.
18:06But they're telling you that while you're trusting us for our leadership, you're in this
18:11bubble.
18:11And whatever happens inside that bubble stays in the bubble.
18:14Whatever happens in Vegas stays in Vegas when you're in our church system.
18:18That's really what...
18:19Yeah, until you get an STD and it comes home with you.
18:22Exactly.
18:23You know, the real problem is this.
18:26We do need to protect our children.
18:28But there needs to be a mechanism from which this can flourish.
18:33This can be widespread.
18:35In that bubble where touch not God's anointed, in that bubble, what happens is people go into
18:40this thinking that they're under the...
18:42There's different names for it, the spiritual covering, et cetera.
18:45They feel like they're being protected by the leader because of that doctrine.
18:49However, the doctrine really protects the leader more than it does the people.
18:53And so the balance has shifted in the favor of the person who's in full control of the
18:58church, well, the people in that case aren't protected and we must protect our children.
19:04That's a sad truth that really needs to be adopted in the church.
19:07But when you're in that mindset, everybody is starting to protect the leader instead of
19:13the individual who's really suffering and needs your help.
19:17And what happens is when there is a situation, instead of helping the person in need, they
19:23will often uplift the leader and then point fingers at the person who is in need.
19:28And that is really, in my opinion, that's really wrong.
19:31I agree.
19:32Absolutely.
19:33We have so many people that have been wounded by the church and that part of the reason
19:39I wrote the book was for my own catharsis to work through the issues and to look at
19:46scripture and also because I knew that there were others that were wounded by the church
19:52and whether the specific lie that I expose in the book is relevant to an individual, most
20:04of them will be.
20:05Maybe not all of them, but most of them will be.
20:09And the cover-up culture we see now, I think, is very indicative of the church protecting
20:19itself, the leadership protecting itself, instead of dealing with and helping those that have
20:23been traumatized.
20:26And, yeah, I believe, let me just say this, I believe in the five-fold ministry because
20:31it's listed in Ephesians, but I don't think we've seen it, not the way God intended it.
20:36And since then, as I said earlier, when we first came back to LA, the Pasadena area, after
20:45my husband was out of the military, we went to Harvest Rock Church.
20:50And then after we got kicked out, we actually didn't go to church very much for 20 years.
20:56We never really got involved.
20:57I would take my grandsons and my grandchildren to a local church, but I would stay in the nursery
21:03with them pretty much for several years.
21:07Because my daughter, like some of my children, of my six children, only four are really walking
21:13with the Lord right now.
21:14They've all had their own journey, and I trust that the Lord's going to continue to pursue
21:19them.
21:19That's one of the things that gives me a lot of hope, because He cares about the individual.
21:24And I believe He's still pursuing even those that aren't, that have kind of turned their
21:29back on Him.
21:32And I think that's one of the differences between my book and other books, is I still
21:36maintain that Jesus is Lord.
21:38And I want to know Him, and I want to know what He means in Scripture, not what somebody
21:46else is interpreting for me.
21:47Darrell Bock Exactly.
21:48I mean, everybody can read about the apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, etc., but there
21:54isn't that hierarchy in the Bible.
21:56When you read that, there is not an authoritarian structure.
21:58And that's really the problem, because it leads to all forms of different abuses that can
22:03happen in the church.
22:04As I understand it, you also went to another church, and you witnessed another situation
22:09where the children must be protected.
22:11How did the church respond?
22:13Darrell Bock They said we needed to let it go, and when they
22:17would not report her, my daughter went and reported her to the police, and we got kicked
22:22out of another church.
22:23So we've actually been kicked out twice.
22:27So after that, we were kind of like, well, God, is there any place for us in your body?
22:33There's just...
22:34So then my husband, the Lord spoke to my husband and told him, I want you to go back to
22:40where
22:40you met me.
22:41So my husband went back to the little Baptist church that he had met the Lord in, and believe
22:49it or not, it was now a Korean Methodist church.
22:53And we've been going since to this.
22:56They've since left the Methodist oversight.
23:00They're a little independent Korean church, but they've opened their arms to us.
23:04And the pastor there is like Paul.
23:09Paul was a tent maker.
23:11This gentleman is a general contractor.
23:14He continues to work besides being a pastor and filling the pulpit.
23:20He lives simply.
23:23He spends...
23:24It gives most of his money away.
23:26And his time is spent going to other countries helping pastors build their church buildings.
23:31Now, he would never claim he was an apostle.
23:34He would never claim that title.
23:37But he is an example to me of what the five-fold ministry is supposed to be.
23:44I believe God gave those gifts as gifts, not as titles, not as offices, but as gifts.
23:51And we exhibit and live those out when we live it with a servant's heart, not a look-at-me
23:59arrogance.
23:59So, I still believe that the scripture is real.
24:04I just know that we have not seen what God intended for it.
24:08You know, even if you look up the meaning of those words and how they're used in the
24:12context they're used, the leadership of the church were basically servants to help build
24:17the people up.
24:18They weren't leaders to govern.
24:20And what they're talking about when you get into these new apostolic reformation circles
24:24is a governance type of situation.
24:27And they didn't get it new.
24:28It came from all of the layers that we've done in our research all the way back, even
24:32before Branham, they were doing this.
24:34And it all came down to this one thing.
24:36We do not want you to question us.
24:38No matter who the leader is, no matter who the figure is, no matter how much money they
24:42were making, they did not want to be questioned.
24:44And in the end, I came to, like you, I understood that the Bible does talk about the pastors, apostles,
24:52prophets, teachers, evangelists, but it doesn't use it in the same way that they use
24:57it.
24:57They use it in the context of touch not God's anointed.
25:01Here are the five offices, touch them not.
25:04They're the ones to govern you.
25:05And that just, it's the opposite of a healthy church.
25:08So what I started doing was I started reevaluating every single part of the structure by this.
25:16Church was meant to serve the people, not people to serve the church.
25:20Church, how do these governance structures that they've created satisfy that?
25:27And I just started ripping out all of the ones that didn't satisfy it.
25:30If it was intended to govern me, then it was the wrong thing.
25:33If it was intended to lift me up and teach me and make me a better person, I accepted
25:38it.
25:39And when you do that, you're kind of left with, well, wait a minute, the whole system
25:42just disappeared.
25:44I agree.
25:45Well, you know, I think it actually started back with the Roman Catholic Church when they
25:49tried to control everybody, you know, and when they fought against having the scriptures
25:56for the common man.
25:58So, yeah, you can see it repeated throughout history.
26:01It becomes a platform for those that really need human affirmation.
26:08And I believe that's one of the weaknesses in the, well, in NAR, the need for human affirmation
26:15instead of just being humble enough to serve each other and know that we're all equal in
26:21front of God.
26:24And one of the things I really wish that they had taught me was how to hear God for myself
26:30because you talk about the apostle, the prophet, and yet we're called a prophetic people.
26:35We're supposed to hear God for ourselves.
26:38I believe God would rather talk to me about me than send somebody else to talk to me.
26:44And so it's more important for me to spend time in the word myself and to prayer myself
26:49so that I hear God for his direction for me.
26:53I'd love to share a wonderful example of that.
26:59January 2025, you've probably heard of the Eaton fire that went through, the fires that went
27:04through Southern California.
27:06On the evening of January 7th, my husband and I, we knew that there was a fire on the
27:12other side of Altadena, and it wasn't the first time we'd faced a fire.
27:16It wasn't the first time we'd evacuated.
27:19So we asked the Lord, do we need to evacuate?
27:21And we both thought, no, you're going to be okay.
27:24So I went on to bed thinking I'd get up and go to work the next day.
27:28Like, my son and my husband and my daughter stayed up to watch the fire.
27:33And just before four o'clock in the morning, my son came and knocked on my door and says,
27:39Mom, we've got to go.
27:40And I quickly got dressed, grabbed my work phone and my personal phone, didn't grab my
27:46Bible.
27:47I grabbed my Bible, but I didn't.
27:50And I grabbed a notebook and another book and went downstairs, got on my coat, grabbed
27:56my purse and my work computer and headed out.
27:58And as I went out the front door, you could see embers floating across the ground.
28:05And in the air, they were flying.
28:07And my daughter had told me while I was still in the house, we're getting the cats, we'll
28:12put them in your car.
28:12And I thought, okay, great.
28:14Our dog was already in my husband's truck and I was parked in front of him.
28:17Um, and my husband kept yelling at me to go, go.
28:22And I'm like, well, my daughter and son aren't out yet.
28:24And I don't have the cats in my car.
28:27But as I got it back out of my car and I saw my daughter and son getting into their
28:32car
28:33and I thought, okay, I can go.
28:35So I backed out and it was so smoky.
28:37I couldn't see.
28:38And I said, Lord, help.
28:39I need help.
28:40I don't know where to drive.
28:42And when I got to the end of the block, I noticed the big bush to the right.
28:46So I knew I was safe to turn left.
28:48So I turned left and within a few blocks, the smoke had cleared.
28:52And my husband and my, uh, my husband and his truck was right behind me and our daughter
28:56behind them.
28:58And we evacuated to our daughter's home in Monrovia.
29:01As we drove, the Lord gave me Isaiah 26.3.
29:05I will keep you in perfect peace if your heart has stayed on me.
29:09And I said, okay, Lord.
29:10And, and then I asked him, did somebody remember to lock the front door?
29:15Just kind of one of those silly housewife thingies, you know?
29:19And, um, we got to our daughter's house and she said the first thing she noticed when
29:24we came in, it was about 4.30, all the smoke.
29:28And her husband is an EMT.
29:30So I said, they aren't going to allow us back up.
29:32Would you just run by and check on the house?
29:35So about 10.30 in the morning, he texts us a picture with two words, it's gone.
29:40And it was a smoke filled picture with no house.
29:45And, um, the nurse and me began to say, okay, what do we need to do?
29:51I put my emotions on the back burner and said, we have to have clothes so we can get out
29:55of
29:55these smoky and get showers and get out of the smoke.
29:58And so we loaded up the kids and went to Costco and we got everybody two changes of clothes
30:04and toothbrushes and shampoo.
30:07And, and my husband and I picked up a laptop and in the middle of Costco, and I'm, I'm busy
30:12functioning in my nurse's mode.
30:14And my daughter just breaks down and cries and says, why does God hate me?
30:18And I'm like, I realized I got to go slower for her.
30:22I need, and I said, he doesn't hate us.
30:24I don't know why this is happening, but he doesn't hate us.
30:28And we got home and, and, and people had been dropping off clothes and food and, um, we're
30:36sorting through things and we had received phone calls all day long.
30:41And one phone call that evening was such a blessing.
30:46Our neighbor's daughter called.
30:48We had not seen our neighbors.
30:50Their house was completely dark.
30:52We had not heard from them.
30:54We thought they were gone.
30:54A lot of the neighborhood had left.
30:57And their daughter said, her mother got up to go to the bathroom just before four o'clock
31:03in the morning and heard you yelling at each other about going and getting in the car.
31:09And she looked out, saw the danger, went and woke up her husband.
31:14And I believe they're alive today because we had prayed and asked the Lord, do we evacuate?
31:20And we had waited until we had to, and they're alive today.
31:25And I am so blessed that we asked the Lord and obeyed what he told us.
31:31I would like to learn to ask him more specific questions because if we'd asked, do we need
31:37to pack something up?
31:38We probably would have not left all the stuff behind.
31:42But he has blessed us since then, too.
31:46So learning to talk to God and hear him for yourself is really, really important.
31:51Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern
31:57Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements
32:03into the new apostolic reformation?
32:05You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
32:12On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles
32:18Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and
32:24digital versions of each book.
32:26You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
32:32movements.
32:33If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute
32:38button at the top.
32:39And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening
32:45to or watching.
32:46On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
32:51One of the things that you talked about a few times in a few different ways was fear of
32:57missing the move of God.
32:59And that is something that is really, really big to me, because we were held captive by
33:05these people who were telling us that we're under this umbrella of protection, not telling
33:10us that the protection was for them, not for us.
33:13And yet at the same time, they kept talking about this move of God that was coming.
33:18And the problem was, it never really came.
33:21They would give hints that something's here, something's here, can't you feel it?
33:25And then you would try to feel it.
33:27And yes, it felt like maybe God's presence was near, but it wasn't the thing that they
33:32talked about.
33:33They were always talking, it was like the carrot on the stick.
33:35They're always talking about the big thing coming, and it just never, never came.
33:39And so in the end, you train as a child in that type of environment to look for this
33:45thing that never happens.
33:47And you begin to wonder as you get older, well, did I miss it?
33:50What's wrong with me?
33:51What did I do inside to miss this thing?
33:55And then worse, people who are in that mindset, whenever you leave or whenever they kick you
34:01out, they look at you and say, well, you left because you missed this move that's happening.
34:05And they don't even realize that they've never even made it to the thing that's supposed
34:09to come.
34:10So they are caught up in their own delusion, and you're caught up in this thing where,
34:14wait a minute, I don't share that same delusion anymore.
34:19Yes.
34:20It was, they manipulated with fear to try to control you.
34:25And they did it in several ways.
34:27And they did it to insulate themselves.
34:29As they did it, they insulated themselves from any accountability.
34:33Like you said, it was a pastoral decision.
34:36It shouldn't be questioned.
34:37I remember being told that.
34:40I also remember being told the pastor has oversight over you as if to protect you.
34:46And I'm like, but you aren't protecting me.
34:48That was in the six months from the time my son told us he'd been abused to the time we
34:54actually were kicked out.
34:56So you're afraid of missing the Holy Spirit, whether it's from an upcoming conference or
35:03some life-changing event.
35:05Part of that was in believing the best because they would use half-truths to defend themselves
35:10and not the whole truth.
35:12They would give, they would tell us to give no offense.
35:16We need to lay down our lives for each other.
35:17And I address that in my book because my children had learned that they couldn't say no, not
35:23without a legitimate reason.
35:24So there was this whole mentality within our, or within the church.
35:29And it wasn't just, I experienced this growing up too.
35:33You weren't supposed to say no unless you had a work commitment that couldn't allow you
35:38to attend or you weren't feeling well.
35:42There were some legitimate excuses.
35:44But other than that, you were supposed to be there at church for everything and you
35:49weren't allowed to say no.
35:51And again, I go back to, I wish they had told us to ask the Lord, what do you want
35:55for me
35:56to do?
35:56And then respect that.
35:58Well, it all goes back to any form of question is questioning the leader.
36:02And if you're questioning the leader, you must not have the Holy Spirit.
36:05In fact, that's one of the things that hit me like a brick wall.
36:08Once I realized what this Holy Spirit was that they were talking about, it was all about
36:13your acceptance of the leader.
36:15That was what they considered to be the Holy Spirit.
36:17If you didn't accept the leader, you didn't have the Holy Spirit.
36:19And that just simply wasn't what I found in my Bible when I was reading it.
36:24Right.
36:24And being able to accept or respect someone's no is healthy.
36:29And so it shows the unhealthiness when you can't accept a no.
36:33When you have to encourage people using fear and manipulation to be in the church and to
36:40do the church work.
36:43Along with that was a scripture he often used, in the day of power, my people will volunteer
36:48freely.
36:48And I actually found, finally found where that scripture comes from.
36:52It's Psalm 110.
36:54And yet, volunteer freely means that they give it out of a heart of passion for the Lord,
37:00not out of a heart for the church.
37:05And that was used to manipulate.
37:07As well as, and then the other thing was, don't pick up your brother's offenses.
37:12They would use that phrase to insulate themselves from accountability.
37:16Because God does call us to be, to care for each other.
37:21And to defend each other.
37:28And to speak up for each other.
37:30And so I really, as I looked through these, I really began to say, okay, Lord, help me
37:39to see what was of you and what wasn't.
37:42Because I know the Lord spoke to me during those years.
37:44I grew up, I raised my kids, and I can point back to events where I know the Lord was
37:51leading
37:51me in that time.
37:52And yet he, through being kicked out of church, showed me the massive lie that I was, and deception
38:00that I was functioning under.
38:02He also, Che preached a lot about covenant relationship.
38:05And I think that is what hurt the most.
38:09Because we thought we were in covenant relationship, that we would work out whatever issues came
38:15up with our pastors, only to discover it was all one-sided.
38:19It was all on his side.
38:21If we were able to do what he needed us to do, not if he would lay down his life
38:27and spend
38:28time helping us.
38:29One of the things that you said that I really started laughing at, because I'd never thought
38:34of it, actually, until you said it, is the, you made some comment about how we were prophetic
38:39people, but only the positive prophecies are allowed.
38:43Oh, my gosh, is that not?
38:45So, in what I came out of, only the negative was allowed, but it was allowed by the leader.
38:51Then after this, if you had anything prophetic to say, it had to be positive about the leader,
38:56because our leader was dead.
38:58Fast forward, I'm going through all of this research of what came next, and it morphed into
39:03this thing where it's, well, they call it shiny, happy people for a reason.
39:07You have to maintain that happiness, and if you're sad, what happens is you don't attract
39:13new members, so you can't be seen as sad.
39:15You have to be shiny and happy, and when you read the biblical prophets, it's both the good
39:22and the bad and the ugly.
39:24Yes, yes.
39:26And people are that way.
39:28No one's 100% good or 100% bad.
39:31God, we are, and there's been times the Lord's corrected me in my devotional time with him.
39:37He said, Darla, that wasn't from my heart.
39:40I'm like, okay, I'm sorry.
39:42You know, I mean, he deals with who we are, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
39:48And in my book, in one part of my book, I talk about my, that attitude of the church has
39:57to be shiny and perfect.
39:59And I was talking to my sister-in-law, who lives up in Northern California in a farming
40:03community, and she said, you know, it's not unusual for a farmer to show up to church
40:11with some dung on his boots or on the hem of his pants.
40:16And she said, that's because he would have gotten ready for church, and then something
40:21happened with some of his livestock, he had to go take care of it.
40:25That's what you would expect somebody to do.
40:27And so the attitude that church has to be shiny and perfect is a big fallacy.
40:34We have to be ready to deal with people in their brokenness and in their woundings and
40:40love them and let Jesus come in and bring the healing to their heart and their soul that
40:46he wants.
40:48And we lose that when we think we've got to always present this perfect picture, because
40:54that's not the heart of God.
40:55God's heart is to meet us where we're the most broken and to bring correction when we
41:02step out of line.
41:04And there were times that I would have a prophetic word that wasn't all that, one of the things
41:12I shared with you is I actually had a dream about a man in the church who was attending
41:16the renewal meetings, but he was a pastor at another church.
41:20And I saw his face, and I saw above his head, RU486, which is a designation of the abortion
41:28pill.
41:30And I really think I had a pretty good idea of what that dream meant, but I had to submit
41:38it to him that this happened, and I don't know what it means, but I'm just submitting
41:41it to you and letting you work it out with the Lord.
41:45And he left the renewal meetings for quite a while, several months before he came back.
41:52And I'm glad he came back.
41:54He needed to work through with the Lord what that dream represented.
42:00And I think we need to know that God doesn't see just the good.
42:04He sees the bad.
42:05He doesn't hide it.
42:06And in a lot of ways, I grieve for NAR and Cheyenne and those that are involved in such
42:12deception right now, because they're going to have to face the Lord.
42:19And that's not going to be a fun thing.
42:21The other thing that you said that goes hand in hand with that, I really had to stop and
42:27think about it, because there are levels of complexity to the things we're talking about.
42:32And this is one of those things that is very, very complex.
42:35You were talking something to the effect of they don't allow you to gossip, and basically
42:41it's just a means to keep you silent.
42:43But there are layers of complexity to that.
42:47So in my family, we were in the upper tiers, because my family knew the central figure.
42:52We had clearly people who were lesser of importance than us in this structure.
42:58Sad to say, I never really adopted that mentality, because I didn't understand I was supposed to.
43:03But looking back, there were three tiers.
43:06And if you look at Dr. Stephen Hassan's book, Combating Cult, Mind Control, he explains the
43:11three tiers and why.
43:13When you're in the upper tier, those people gossip like crazy.
43:18I'm looking back and going through the names.
43:21Oh, my gosh, look at that, look at that.
43:23When you said that, I started playing back in my head everything that I remember growing
43:27up.
43:28That middle tier would gossip about everybody and everyone.
43:32But the lower tier was being preached at, don't gossip, that's wrong.
43:36That's not the way that God wants you to be.
43:38And what it was, was a mechanism, like you said, of control.
43:41They do not want any of the bad stuff to make it to the outside world.
43:46Because if you do, the outside world doesn't come in.
43:49You can't recruit new members.
43:51So they want to contain it.
43:52It has to be self-contained.
43:53But then from the top, they're going to gossip down.
43:56So it's such a weird, complex mess.
43:59And the problem with that is when you don't, when you aren't transparent and you don't
44:06expose truth, you open the door for more rumors and slander.
44:11Absolutely.
44:12And one of the things that really bothers me, not only about your story, but also about
44:16some of the other stories that I've been hearing from people I'm working with, leadership
44:21will tell just enough details to make the story sound one way, but they leave out the
44:27key details, which makes it sound entirely differently to the listener.
44:31In your case, you had a six-year-old son who needed protection.
44:36And in this case, it was protection from a 14-year-old teenage girl.
44:40He later informed you whenever he was 10 years old that this thing had happened.
44:45And she pled guilty when she was 18, as I understand the story.
44:49Now, that's horrific.
44:51I can't imagine being a parent and going through that.
44:54But then, as I understand it, you were told by somebody who was there that the leadership
44:59in the church started saying that you left because of sexual immorality, which made it
45:04sound as though this was something that was your fault.
45:07And the person who later had pled guilty, apparently, if I understand the story right, she was working
45:14with other children.
45:15Is that correct?
45:16She had worked in children's ministry.
45:18She had babysat her people in the church.
45:20And the half-truths that came out, the gossip that came out because they weren't transparent
45:27was awful.
45:29It is awful.
45:29And like I said, we must protect the children at all costs.
45:33I don't care who you are.
45:34I don't care what type of scenario you're in.
45:37The children are the ones that need protected by any parent in any situation.
45:41I can't imagine a healthy church wanting a strategy like this.
45:47I think if anything comes out of this podcast, if anything comes out of your book, it's that
45:51we need to adopt a platform where people can be protected and their children especially
45:57can be protected.
45:58I spent a lot of time talking to my husband and then writing about what real forgiveness is.
46:05And real forgiveness is I've dealt with the hurt with the Lord and released the person that offended me.
46:13It doesn't mean I trust them again.
46:16Trust is earned.
46:17It isn't just flatly given.
46:20I like to see, and actually I was taught this from Che, from one of his sermons.
46:30Forgiveness is releasing the person.
46:33Reconciliation is the process of restoration, which means the person who wounded you realizes
46:41they wounded you and they start to rebuild trust.
46:46And once trust is restored, you reach restoration.
46:50It's like, and the example he used, honestly, the example he used in the sermon, and I remember
46:55this, was if you loan your lawnmower to your neighbor and they break it, you forgive them.
47:03But if they go and get it fixed again, then that's, they're reconciling with you.
47:10They're repairing what they did.
47:12But if they buy you a brand new one, a brand new, not vacuum cleaner, lawnmower, then they've
47:18restored.
47:19You'll be willing to loan them anything because they saw that they did not care for you and
47:25your belongings as they needed to.
47:27And I remember him preaching that.
47:29Did you try to approach and have a discussion about the situation?
47:34We tried after, a year after we left, to write a letter to Che and seek reconciliation.
47:43And we just got a letter back that said, oh, well, I'm sorry this happened.
47:49And then he went on to defend, he asked for forgiveness, and then he went on to defend his
47:54leadership style.
47:55So that, there was no reconciliation there.
47:57Getting kicked out of church is really difficult.
48:00And you've written a book on it.
48:01I've went through it.
48:03I've talked to countless at this point how many people have gone through that.
48:07And every case is unique, yet at the same time, every case is really, really difficult.
48:13They struggle.
48:14What advice would you give to people who are going through that?
48:18Separate yourself from any continuing toxic relationships, people that want to blame you.
48:26And then get alone with God.
48:29And do what I did years ago and say, okay, God, I'm going to start at ground one with you.
48:34You love me.
48:35Help me to understand how you love me.
48:38Because so much of who we are wants to point at circumstances around us and then blame God for it.
48:49And he gives us free will.
48:52He lets people make mistakes.
48:55And we shouldn't blame him for it.
48:57But we need to redefine within ourselves who he is and who he created us to be.
49:04I am still asking God to show me the lies I've believed about myself, about church, and show me who
49:12he is in it.
49:13And he is faithful to do so.
49:16And when you're ready, ask God to lead you back to a church that will honor him and embrace you.
49:24I was out of church for 20 years.
49:26And God never left me.
49:28I never left the Lord.
49:31My husband and I did get family counseling because it affected our whole family.
49:36And specifically our son who needed healing and help.
49:42And there's no shame in getting counseling if you need it.
49:47It is out there.
49:48It's available.
49:50And ask for, if you're interested, I have a website that's going to be coming out shortly, Rebuilding After Spiritual
49:59Abuse.
49:59I will be available to help if somebody needs to just vent.
50:06I don't have answers for another person.
50:08I do have a listening ear and a praying heart.
50:11And I will lift them up.
50:13My website will be effective shortly as well, probably before this is aired.
50:19So it's called Rebuilding After Spiritual Abuse.
50:22Thank you so much.
50:23And tell people where they can find your book.
50:25My book, The Things I Learned After Being Kicked Out of Church, has a second edition coming out very shortly.
50:31And it will be available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble.
50:35Google the title and something will come up for you.
50:38Well, thank you so much for doing this.
50:40Oh, it's been my pleasure.
50:42And I really appreciate the variety of folks that you have on, John, that I don't agree with everybody, but
50:49I love hearing different perspectives and then just taking it to the Lord and saying, okay, Lord, what do you
50:54have for me in this?
50:56And I really encourage people, that's where we need to be.
50:59We can't let somebody else define our relationship with God.
51:02We have to seek it on individually.
51:05Absolutely.
51:06Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story, you can check us
51:10out on the web.
51:11You can find us at william-branham.org.
51:13For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to
51:19the NAR.
51:20Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
51:52Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.
52:21Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.
52:25Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.
52:25Weaponized Religion, From complexes ZD plus Zindustrie to the NAR.
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