- 2 days ago
John and Bob reflect on the painful journey of leaving high-control religious groups and the struggle to find authentic faith afterward. They open up about grief, trauma, and the challenge of rebuilding belief after encountering a false image of God. Their discussion highlights how many survivors develop “spiritual scar tissue,” making them hypersensitive to control, manipulation, and inauthenticity in new church settings.
Together, they outline what to look for when searching for a healthy community: authenticity over image, relationships over numbers, peacemakers over narcissistic leaders, and a willingness to embrace questions without fear. Both hosts emphasize that faith after disillusionment is not about urgent theological perfection but about finding authentic relationships, honest dialogue, and the freedom to explore belief with fresh eyes.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 John recalls his first YouTube channel and exposing false teachings
02:59 Discovering the false Jesus taught in cults vs. the Bible
05:23 Why many survivors can’t hear the name “Jesus” again right away
06:29 Bob shares about his mother’s passing and lessons from grief
09:01 Hospice wisdom: regrets about relationships and dying well
13:12 The struggle to find an authentic church experience
15:09 John’s advice: don’t pick one church—explore and take notes
20:12 Values shift across life stages and family needs
23:05 The problem of authenticity vs. church growth models
26:36 Scar tissue and walking out of triggering church services
32:01 John’s experiences with controlling churches after leaving the cult
36:42 Struggling with anger-based portrayals of God
38:55 Narcissism and control within ex-cult support groups
40:01 The “Etch-A-Sketch” moment: clearing false foundations
42:09 Bob recalls the “wannabe apostles” of Kansas City
48:24 Authenticity, brokenness, and why bars feel more real than churches
53:58 Communion, foot washing, and what healthy community looks like
57:27 Pastors on pedestals vs. servant leadership
1:00:01 Embracing disillusionment as childlike rediscovery
1:04:03 The mercy of God in disillusionment and rejecting empty religion
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Together, they outline what to look for when searching for a healthy community: authenticity over image, relationships over numbers, peacemakers over narcissistic leaders, and a willingness to embrace questions without fear. Both hosts emphasize that faith after disillusionment is not about urgent theological perfection but about finding authentic relationships, honest dialogue, and the freedom to explore belief with fresh eyes.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 John recalls his first YouTube channel and exposing false teachings
02:59 Discovering the false Jesus taught in cults vs. the Bible
05:23 Why many survivors can’t hear the name “Jesus” again right away
06:29 Bob shares about his mother’s passing and lessons from grief
09:01 Hospice wisdom: regrets about relationships and dying well
13:12 The struggle to find an authentic church experience
15:09 John’s advice: don’t pick one church—explore and take notes
20:12 Values shift across life stages and family needs
23:05 The problem of authenticity vs. church growth models
26:36 Scar tissue and walking out of triggering church services
32:01 John’s experiences with controlling churches after leaving the cult
36:42 Struggling with anger-based portrayals of God
38:55 Narcissism and control within ex-cult support groups
40:01 The “Etch-A-Sketch” moment: clearing false foundations
42:09 Bob recalls the “wannabe apostles” of Kansas City
48:24 Authenticity, brokenness, and why bars feel more real than churches
53:58 Communion, foot washing, and what healthy community looks like
57:27 Pastors on pedestals vs. servant leadership
1:00:01 Embracing disillusionment as childlike rediscovery
1:04:03 The mercy of God in disillusionment and rejecting empty religion
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Bob Scott,
00:00:47former co-founder of the Kansas City Fellowship and author of three books,
00:00:50the latest is Some Said They Blundered, Breaking My Decades of Silence on Mike Bickle,
00:00:55the Kansas City Prophets, and the International House of Prayer.
00:01:00Bob, it's good to be back and to finally start going deeper into some of the mess and the chaos
00:01:07that is in the church world today.
00:01:11And you were talking, I guess it was two days ago, three days ago,
00:01:16about what we could talk about in this subject, which is going to require me to open up a little
00:01:21bit more than I usually do, so it puts me off of my element.
00:01:28I don't do that very often.
00:01:29I try to just distance myself from the research, let the history speak for itself, but interestingly,
00:01:37this is a history that you don't know about me, but when my first YouTube channel launched
00:01:43after, I can't remember how long I had been in deprogramming when it did launch,
00:01:49the cult eventually took that website down, that YouTube site down.
00:01:54They attacked it in a very insidious and very highly technological way.
00:02:00So when it came down, all of the content came down with it.
00:02:03I had some backups, but in the end, I just decided I would start with a clean slate anyway.
00:02:09But at that point in time, I had began a life that was so far out of my element.
00:02:17I was doing a 30 to 45 minute, I don't know what you would call it, the closest thing would
00:02:22be like a sermonette.
00:02:24But essentially what it was, I was going through the Bible.
00:02:28I was trying to show and portray to the people who were listening, and there weren't a lot
00:02:35at that time.
00:02:36It grew to a significant size, but compared to what it is now, it's not a lot.
00:02:42But what I was trying to show and portray was that by misusing the Bible, which the cults
00:02:49were doing, then the Jesus that they were showing was not the Jesus of the Bible.
00:02:55And so I was walking through, basically, my strategy was very simple.
00:03:02We were attending church, we actually went to a few different churches, but I would hear
00:03:07a sermon that was so far different than what I grew up with for the same exact passage of
00:03:13Scripture.
00:03:14I would go back and I would read that passage, and then I would read sometimes the whole book
00:03:21if it was short, but mostly the starting point within the book where the segment changes
00:03:27and the context changes to fit the statement that they were preaching, and then read until
00:03:33that section ended.
00:03:34So I was getting the full context of the passage, and lo and behold, what they were preaching
00:03:40in these, I'm not going to mention the denominations, but what they were preaching in the churches
00:03:45was the exact opposite of what I was hearing in the cults, and what I was hearing in the
00:03:50cults was the exact opposite of what I was reading if you read it in context for itself.
00:03:56So I began this journey with a 30 to 45-minute sermonette, but here's the problem that I had,
00:04:04and I'm setting this up for what we're going to talk about today.
00:04:07The problem that I had was the Jesus they were showing was a different Jesus.
00:04:14By no means was it the same as the Bible, and yet I was working with support groups where
00:04:21there were people who were entering the very first stage of their journey, which if you
00:04:26compare it to the Old Testament where they're burning down the temples, they're literally
00:04:31coming in with an axe, and they're tearing down false Jesus in their heads.
00:04:35When you do that, what's left?
00:04:38You've tore down the false Jesus in your head.
00:04:40Well, now you're starting with a clean slate.
00:04:43And the more I was talking about these things, it was very abrasive to a person who first enters
00:04:49that journey.
00:04:51Almost like, the best way I can compare it is if you're an abused spouse, and you finally
00:04:59get your divorce, and somebody says, hey, let's go dating.
00:05:02I'm going to show you some men.
00:05:04And the woman has been beaten, you know, brutally beaten.
00:05:08She's not going to want to instantly go see other men.
00:05:11People who are brutally, verbally attacked in these cult churches, which is what is happening,
00:05:17beaten over the head with the false Jesus, they don't want to hear the name Jesus again.
00:05:21So, where I'm setting all of this up is, we get – in fact, I just got another one today.
00:05:29We get the emails and the comments so frequently, you guys expose the history and the truth that
00:05:37is very painful to understand, but you're not leading people towards what they should
00:05:41go to after leaving a cult, which is the setup for today.
00:05:46Interestingly, you and I both have experienced this recently.
00:05:51I've actually had multiple deaths in my family just back to back to back here recently.
00:05:56Very painful.
00:05:58When you are around the cult people in that setup, in that scenario, there's a different
00:06:05thing that happens, which is unusual.
00:06:07The people who are gathering together around the grief, the burden that's happening in
00:06:13the funeral, the false Jesus that they bring with them suddenly takes a back row seat to
00:06:21the human that's there in the room, and things become altogether different.
00:06:25So, this makes another level of complexity, which you and I can talk through, but funerals
00:06:30change everything.
00:06:32And I know that you recently have gone through the same sort of thing.
00:06:35Well, yeah, because my Facebook account was hacked way back in March, I haven't really had
00:06:43a platform to communicate with a lot of my friends.
00:06:48And the news was, is that my mother passed away a week ago, I think, like, yeah, a couple
00:06:59of Thursdays.
00:06:59Anyways, and so it was interesting, because a lot of my family's Catholic.
00:07:07So, I get into Chicago, and they want to have a funeral.
00:07:14And I looked at my cousins, and I went, my mom was 97 years old.
00:07:19She lived an amazing life.
00:07:25I have so many wonderful stories.
00:07:28You all loved her.
00:07:29Why are we having a dirge?
00:07:31I want to have a celebration of life.
00:07:34I'm not interested in a funeral.
00:07:37And they all kind of stared at me, and then they kind of smiled and went, I guess you have
00:07:41a point here.
00:07:41And I went, yes, we're celebrating 97 years of a life well-lived.
00:07:47I'm not here depressed.
00:07:51Now, am I going to miss my mom?
00:07:53Absolutely.
00:07:54But my mom has been reunited with a whole lot of people that she loved, and there's very
00:07:59few people at 97 in her life that are left that are her peers.
00:08:05So, I said, I'm happy for my mother, right?
00:08:08So, that was really interesting.
00:08:10What it reminded me of, actually, was a famous quote by Marcus Aurelius, who actually probably
00:08:17didn't say this, but he gets credited for this, which is this, everything we hear is
00:08:22an opinion, not a fact.
00:08:25Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth, right?
00:08:29And so, the reason why I use that quote a lot is I've had, for 40 years, worked on the
00:08:37whole issue of racial and conflict reconciliation, and a lot of people approach things dogmatically
00:08:43as though they have the facts, right?
00:08:46And so, we have a collision of facts, and I try to explain to people, I go, no, you have
00:08:50a perspective.
00:08:51You won't know if you have a fact until you get on the other side, and you have the complete
00:08:56revelation, right?
00:08:57But right now, you just have a perspective, and remember that, so back off your dogmaticness
00:09:02a little bit, and lighten up, and let's just have a conversation, right?
00:09:07So, anyways, we had a really beautiful time, but a couple of things I thought I might share
00:09:13with our audience that I thought were interesting takeaways from the whole thing.
00:09:21There were three things.
00:09:22First of all, well, there's more than that.
00:09:25First of all, it was very funny because my mom wanted the Battle Hymn of the Republic to
00:09:31open her funeral, and so it was hilarious because everybody's kind of sitting there, and I could
00:09:36see the puzzled look on their face, right?
00:09:38They're like, what in the heck is going on here?
00:09:41Nobody plays the Battle Hymn of the Republic at their funeral, right?
00:09:46And so, I had, you know, I was the first guy to get up and speak, and I had to explain
00:09:50to everyone, I said, listen, I said, you all know my mom is this sweet, grandmotherly,
00:09:56great-grandmotherly woman.
00:09:59I said, but my mom was on the forefront of civil rights.
00:10:04I could tell you stories of where my mom took her black lady friends and marched them right
00:10:10up to the front seat of the church or at a meeting and just dared people in the 1960s,
00:10:16you know, to challenge her.
00:10:18I mean, she was that kind of woman.
00:10:20The whole Catholic abuse thing broke in Milwaukee where we grew up at St. John's Boys' School
00:10:28for the Deaf.
00:10:29I mean, that just sent my mom into, you know, into war mode, you know?
00:10:35That was one of the reasons why she dragged us all out of the Catholic Church, you know,
00:10:40in 1970.
00:10:41She was mad, right?
00:10:42So, you know, people have always wondered, you know, why are you so active in Africa and
00:10:48in issues that deal with, you know, injustice and all that?
00:10:52I think I get it from her.
00:10:53But I was reminding, well, I was sharing, actually, with family and friends that I have a buddy
00:11:00from high school that works in the hospice industry, or he did.
00:11:06He just retired.
00:11:07So he's 40 years.
00:11:08He's worked in this world.
00:11:10And he's transitioned 6,000 people into death.
00:11:15And I asked him one time, I go, John, so what's the takeaway?
00:11:18Like, you've sat here, you've had a front row seat of people dying, and what, you know,
00:11:27what's your takeaway?
00:11:28Like, give me one or two things that you can look back and go, oh, my gosh, this is so vivid,
00:11:35right?
00:11:35These truths are so vivid, or these perspectives are so vivid.
00:11:40He said the first one is, is that when you run out of time, you re-evaluate how you spent
00:11:47your time, and a whole lot of people wish they would have pursued and invested more in
00:11:53their relationships than their pursuit of status and stuff.
00:11:57So take that piece of wisdom and go home and hug your spouse, love your kids, love your
00:12:05grandkids.
00:12:06Like, he just said, it's just amazing how many people who were very successful regret it,
00:12:11because they wish they would have been more relational.
00:12:15So that was one takeaway.
00:12:17The other thing he said, which was really interesting, he said, I can always tell how
00:12:21people lived by how they died.
00:12:23And he said, what do you mean?
00:12:24And he said, if you were a sower of discord, if you were self-centered, if you were somebody
00:12:32who had a big ego, he goes, it's crazy what goes on at the hospice.
00:12:38I mean, there's conflict everywhere.
00:12:40He goes, I can't tell you how many times I've had to call the police.
00:12:42But he goes, the lovers of God, who were lovers of others, who laid their lives down and cared
00:12:50about other people, they have a glorious death, and all of their family members celebrate
00:12:57them.
00:12:57And so that reminded me of my mom's situation.
00:13:01And I thought, well, mom, you lived a life well done.
00:13:05You lived a great life.
00:13:06So that was really good.
00:13:08But then where this kind of dovetails into what we want to talk about, I started having
00:13:14a conversation with my cousins.
00:13:18And I think because they know that I've been a church planner in the past, they were starting
00:13:25to ask me a few questions.
00:13:26And one of the things that came up was, how do you find a church?
00:13:31And I said, what do you mean?
00:13:32They go, well, we're having a hard time here because we're trying to find churches.
00:13:40And everyone we walk into feels like I'm going to a theater production, some sort of a show.
00:13:47It's just weird.
00:13:49It's like it's not what I thought church should be or what I was hoping church would be.
00:13:56And some of them are transitioning out of some more traditional denominations.
00:14:02We're looking for something a little bit more lively.
00:14:06And what they've ended up finding on the evangelical or charismatic Pentecostal side is this production
00:14:18called a Sunday morning service.
00:14:21And it really was discouraging.
00:14:25And so one of the questions that I found myself thinking about on the drive home was, well,
00:14:33what should a church be?
00:14:36And if I was looking for a church, what would be the things I would want?
00:14:42You know what I mean?
00:14:42And the reason it kind of also I thought would be a great conversation was is people on our
00:14:49feed have asked that question.
00:14:51You know, there's a number of people that have come out of cults or bad church situations
00:14:56that have made comments like, well, what do we look for?
00:15:01You know?
00:15:01And so I thought, well, that's a conversation I'd love to have with John because he's one
00:15:05of those guys.
00:15:06So, you know, my question to you is, is when you came out of the cult, what were you looking
00:15:12for?
00:15:12You know, it's funny.
00:15:13I mentioned I had an email just today that I was answering with this very question.
00:15:18And some of what you just said reminds me of a phone conversation that I had yesterday
00:15:23with the same question.
00:15:26This, I kid you not, this comes in every single day.
00:15:30I get somebody in a comment feed or an email.
00:15:33I try to respond to everyone equally if I, you know, sometimes I get backed up.
00:15:37But when I left the cult, I was shell-shocked.
00:15:43I did not really know what I was looking for.
00:15:46And to put it into proper perspective, my family just went through, like I said, multiple
00:15:53deaths in the family.
00:15:55In fact, one of them, in my head, it's still yesterday.
00:16:00I'm still that much suffering.
00:16:03My grandmother and my grandfather both died on my mother's side, and these were the people
00:16:08that I was closest to in my life.
00:16:10They were the best people.
00:16:14I'm still struggling with my grandmother's death, and I had the conversation with my wife
00:16:19about a week and a half ago or so, and she reminded me that that was a year ago, John.
00:16:24And so I'm still dealing with it, but I'm dealing with it freshly because her husband,
00:16:30my grandfather, also died.
00:16:33So in the complexity in my life, I had my grandfather, who was the pastor of the Branham
00:16:40Tabernacle.
00:16:41When he died, it was exactly, I'm told, as you said, I wasn't allowed to be there because,
00:16:48you know, once you expose a cult, the cult doesn't like you.
00:16:52I'm told by people that were there as he was dying that the fighting got so bad, attorneys
00:16:56got involved.
00:16:58So on one side of the family, you have that going on.
00:17:02On the other side of the family, whenever my grandmother died, because of the cult situation,
00:17:09the people who came in to help the funeral processions literally blocked me and my family
00:17:16from coming.
00:17:17I could not go grieve.
00:17:18My, her brothers and sisters who were not part of the cult, because they wanted to keep
00:17:24me out, they blocked everyone.
00:17:26Nobody can come.
00:17:28So the whole family's up in arms.
00:17:30Why won't they let us pay our final respects?
00:17:34So that's part of the reason.
00:17:35That's sad.
00:17:36Yeah, that's part of the reason I'm still freshly suffering with that.
00:17:39Well, then my grandfather died.
00:17:40Same exact thing.
00:17:41I can't go even to the funeral.
00:17:43And he was my best friend for until I came out of the cult.
00:17:47He was my best friend.
00:17:49My grandfather on my mother's side was very genuine, a very genuine, loving person.
00:17:57Yes, he was in a cult, but he would associate with other people of all kinds of different
00:18:02religions and faiths.
00:18:04And he would treat them equally with the same respect, which is largely why I have modeled
00:18:09myself after him when I talk to anybody who's on the podcast.
00:18:13I don't care who you are.
00:18:15I will treat you with the same respect.
00:18:17I got that from my grandfather.
00:18:19So in my life, you've got those two opposing forces.
00:18:24It's like the Thor and the Loki.
00:18:26It really is.
00:18:28So when I left the cult, what do you look for?
00:18:31Do you look for a Thor?
00:18:32Do you look for a Yoki, Thor or Loki?
00:18:35Well, I was still confused by the denominations thing.
00:18:40What is a denomination?
00:18:42Why a denomination?
00:18:43Why are there people that segment themselves from other Christians?
00:18:47So I wanted to understand that further.
00:18:50We were taught falsely in the cult, and it appears to be very common among all of the cults.
00:18:57You're taught this absolute truth.
00:18:59You must have the absolute truth, and you must have it now.
00:19:03There is an urgency.
00:19:04If you don't have it now, then you're risking your whole family going to hell.
00:19:09So you must have this urgent correctness, right?
00:19:12And they teach that the denominations think they have the urgent correctness, which is
00:19:17a total false statement.
00:19:19Denominations don't look at religion this way.
00:19:23So I just wanted to experience denominations.
00:19:25So one of the first things I do when people ask me, what church do I go to after leaving
00:19:30a cult?
00:19:32My first response is this.
00:19:34Don't pick one.
00:19:36Go to several.
00:19:38See what you like.
00:19:39Take notes.
00:19:40Take notes.
00:19:40This is what I agree with.
00:19:41This is what I disagree with.
00:19:43But be very open to explore the reasons why you disagree with them, because a year from
00:19:51now, two years, five years, even ten years or more, you may suddenly come to the realization
00:19:56that, yeah, I disagreed with that, but now that I have a better context of what the Scripture
00:20:01means, I may fully agree with whatever this is that I'm in disagreement now.
00:20:06So the answer to your question is, my advice is, don't pick one.
00:20:11Try several.
00:20:12And see what you like, see what you dislike.
00:20:14Well, one thing for sure is, I think, we all got to figure out what our value system
00:20:23is, you know, what our values are.
00:20:26And the reason why is your values are your sort of your plumb line, right, of how you
00:20:33evaluate things, right?
00:20:35So you have these values.
00:20:37So what are your values?
00:20:40Because it's important that you align yourself with people that have similar values, right?
00:20:48So what are those, you know?
00:20:51And we have to be careful here, because as we were talking about, you know, there's different
00:20:57stages of life.
00:20:58When I was a young dad with three kids, you know, a church that had a dynamic children's
00:21:07ministry was really at the top of my value system, because I valued my kids, right?
00:21:14They were up there.
00:21:15And so, you know, I, you know, I wanted my kids to have fun.
00:21:21You know, I wanted their spiritual experience to be enjoyable.
00:21:24And so I found myself, you know, even when we were building Kansas City Fellowship, it's
00:21:34like, you know, here I am.
00:21:36I'm the guy hiring everyone.
00:21:37It's like, I got to hire the most dynamic children's ministry pastor I can find, right?
00:21:43The guy that knows how to do all the puppets and keep the kids excited and, right?
00:21:48Be entertaining, right?
00:21:49So that, and that was kind of my mentality back then.
00:21:54You know, now that I'm nearly 70 and I have a whole different, you know, way I look at things
00:22:02and what I'm looking for.
00:22:03So I want to be respectful of the fact that where you are in life often impacts your view
00:22:10of what you want in a church.
00:22:13One thing we probably should say, because we don't say it, because we spend a lot of
00:22:19time kind of pointing out some of the mess, the significant mess that's out there.
00:22:27But there's a lot of good churches.
00:22:29There's a lot of good people in the ministry.
00:22:31There's some real problematic people, people that I find absolutely lacking in integrity
00:22:39and motivated by self-centeredness.
00:22:42And those people, I just, you know, I just have a radar go off inside of me, like, get
00:22:47out of here, you know?
00:22:49But there's also a lot of really good people.
00:22:52So one of the things for me, and again, remember, this is my perspective.
00:22:56I'm not saying these are the facts.
00:22:58This is just my perspective.
00:22:59One of the top things I look for in a church is, are the people authentic?
00:23:10Right?
00:23:11You know, one of my real problems, and I think this came out of my discussion with my cousins,
00:23:16is so much of the modern church world because of what we have talked about in the past, the
00:23:22introduction of church consultants into the ministry world where they've focused all of
00:23:33this energy in your methodology and your processes and your procedures and your marketing and all
00:23:42this kind of stuff because the end goal is to grow your church, right?
00:23:47There's not a guy that I know that goes in the ministry that doesn't go into it to grow
00:23:52his church.
00:23:53So they're being motivated by growth because growth in their mind establishes whether they
00:24:03are successful, right?
00:24:05In other words, my church doesn't grow on a failure.
00:24:07That's pretty much the ministry world.
00:24:10That's how you get evaluated.
00:24:11Right or wrong, it's just how it is.
00:24:14And so there's this enormous pressure on guys in the ministry to grow their churches.
00:24:18The problem with that, when that becomes the number one focus, is authenticity a lot of times
00:24:27gets sacrificed and presentation and facade and image and all of that then becomes the
00:24:37sort of dominant focus.
00:24:41And at my age, at this particular point, and I think you're probably like this, you can smell it.
00:24:48You can sense it, right?
00:24:51You know, I was thinking about what you were talking about, about your exodus out of the
00:24:56cult.
00:24:58What's hard about what a lot of us have been through is how it happens is we get T-boned.
00:25:06It doesn't happen nicely, right?
00:25:10You're never gently let down.
00:25:12It's not like you're having this wonderful conversation over a period of time and you
00:25:18change your mind.
00:25:19It comes out of crisis, right?
00:25:23It comes out of crisis in relationships, crisis in faith, crisis.
00:25:28And it goes way backwards before it goes forward, right?
00:25:34It's a massive, you know, people talk about deconstruct.
00:25:38I go, no, it's not deconstruct.
00:25:40It's destruction, right?
00:25:43It's not like, you know, okay, let's layer by layer, peel this back, right?
00:25:48No, it's a bomb.
00:25:50It's a T-bone, right?
00:25:51And it's a car wreck.
00:25:52That's what I was trying to explain to people when my friends got killed in Zimbabwe.
00:25:57It was a train wreck at high speed, right?
00:26:00You're so excited about the world you're in and you're so focused and you're 100% committed
00:26:07to fulfilling the vision and then suddenly you get T-boned out of nowhere and discover
00:26:13everything you thought isn't real.
00:26:17That's devastating, right?
00:26:20It's crushing.
00:26:22Relationships blow up.
00:26:24You know, finances blow up.
00:26:26Careers blow up.
00:26:27You know, your whole image of God blow, everything just blows up.
00:26:32And so one of the things that I try to get people to understand in that situation because
00:26:41they panic, right?
00:26:43There's, you go into a panic mode because everything, it's like you're suddenly disoriented,
00:26:48right?
00:26:49And the minute you lose, you're disoriented, you panic, right?
00:26:52Your fear becomes this thing.
00:26:55When I try to count people down and go, hey, you're normal.
00:27:00Like this, what you're going through right now is normal.
00:27:05Welcome to the human journey.
00:27:08Welcome to what millions of other people have gone through already.
00:27:11You're not weird.
00:27:12You're not odd.
00:27:13You're not whatever.
00:27:15Yes, I get it.
00:27:16This is painful.
00:27:17Yes, this is costly.
00:27:19Yes, this is going to change your whole, I mean, everything in your life is going to
00:27:25be affected by this.
00:27:26I get it, but embrace it, right?
00:27:29Embrace it, right?
00:27:30Go for it.
00:27:31But what it does, and I think what you're talking about is what I call spiritual scar tissue.
00:27:39Funny story.
00:27:40I was in the Boy Scouts when I was a kid, right?
00:27:45And they made us go camping in the winter.
00:27:47This is Wisconsin, you know?
00:27:49You know, we got to be men.
00:27:51So we're going out there at sub-zero temperature, sleeping in tents.
00:27:55Well, guess what we ended up doing?
00:27:57We spent most of our time around a fire trying to stay warm, right?
00:28:03But it was the weirdest thing because as I stood close to the fire, it felt like I was
00:28:10getting these little bites on my skin.
00:28:13And I was really confused because I'm like 11 years old, right?
00:28:17And I'm like, it's the middle of winter.
00:28:19How could I be getting bug bites, right?
00:28:21So anyways, finally, I went back to my tent to go to sleep, and I took my flashlight out
00:28:32and looked at all my bug bites.
00:28:34And it turned out that it wasn't bug bites.
00:28:38It was scars.
00:28:39And what was weird, and that's because just FYI, it was that kid, you know, who did all
00:28:46the things you weren't supposed to do.
00:28:48So, you know, like I had three broken arms and, you know, five head concussions.
00:28:53And like, I was that kid, you know what I mean?
00:28:55So I had a lot of scars, you know?
00:28:58And so anyways, but I realized, I like, oh my gosh, my scar tissue is far more sensitive
00:29:06than the other tissue.
00:29:08And so the stinging was because of the heat was, you know, was causing my scar tissue to
00:29:14hurt.
00:29:14Well, I think that natural phenomena plays out in our spiritual journeys as well.
00:29:23And I think one of the things that you develop after you've gone through a very painful experience
00:29:29is very sensitive scar tissue, right?
00:29:32So, makes going to new churches or having new experiences really difficult because there's
00:29:42certain things that you then have to experience that sting.
00:29:46It's like, it's like really familiar.
00:29:49And I don't like this, right?
00:29:52And there's this instinct you have, at least I get it.
00:29:56It's like, I got to get out of here.
00:29:58This is painful.
00:30:00Like, I don't like this feeling, right?
00:30:01And so it's like, I got to go.
00:30:04So I have to confess that I have probably walked out of quite a few church services about 10
00:30:12minutes into the message going, I can't do this.
00:30:16So for those of you that can identify with this, that doesn't make me a bad Christian.
00:30:22It just makes me someone who's very, very sensitive to things.
00:30:26And the first thing for me is a lack of authenticity.
00:30:31I can smell it a mile away, right?
00:30:34I just, I can sense it.
00:30:36It's like something is really off here.
00:30:40Like, this just isn't authentic.
00:30:42This person, great presentation.
00:30:45You're very handsome.
00:30:46You're very dynamic.
00:30:48You seem to know the scriptures really well.
00:30:50You're putting on quite a show.
00:30:51But there's something about this.
00:30:53And sorry for cussing, but this is bullshit.
00:30:57So I have a BS meter and it goes off inside of me.
00:31:01I can't help it.
00:31:03Now, is it more sensitive than probably the average person?
00:31:06Yes.
00:31:07Because I've been through some painful stuff in my life, right?
00:31:10Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of
00:31:15modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe
00:31:21movements into the new apostolic reformation?
00:31:24You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
00:31:29william-branham.org.
00:31:31On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles
00:31:37Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio,
00:31:43and digital versions of each book.
00:31:45You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
00:31:51movements.
00:31:52If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the
00:31:57Contribute button at the top.
00:31:58And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening
00:32:04to or watching.
00:32:05On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:32:10You know, I said at the beginning I was going to open up a little bit more than I usually
00:32:14do, and I'm going to try to be very cautious here because I don't want to step on anybody's
00:32:20toes.
00:32:21But when we first left the cult, we went into a church, I've talked about this one a few
00:32:26times, that they wanted very much, even though it was not a charismatic church, they wanted
00:32:34to restore pieces of what felt like the five-fold ministry hierarchy of authoritarian control.
00:32:43In fact, the last sermon that we listened to when I was there, they took the book of Philemon
00:32:50and changed the context and said – the whole sermon was literally this.
00:32:56In fact, this was a quote from the sermon.
00:32:58Paul could have pulled out his apostle card and came down hard on this situation because
00:33:03he was an apostle.
00:33:05And the whole sermon was structured around the idea that if you're a Christian in a church,
00:33:11you need to submit to the authority of your pastors because they are your shepherds, which
00:33:16is essentially the shepherding movement all over again.
00:33:19This was horrific.
00:33:20I walked out of that church.
00:33:23I started going to new churches.
00:33:25One of them, they had a very grace-filled sermon.
00:33:29I think I've mentioned this a few times.
00:33:31I went to five services there, and they were talking about how we're in the New Covenant
00:33:36and all of these other churches, not naming names, are preaching Old Testament law and trying
00:33:43to restore the Old Testament laws in ways that they should not because we're in the New Covenant.
00:33:48And then sermon number five, he comes out and he says, now I'm going to talk about something
00:33:53that's going to make everyone in here uncomfortable, how we need to pay tithe.
00:33:57Oh, yeah.
00:33:59Oh, yeah.
00:34:00And not teaching the part of the tithing system where the priest gives it back to the people.
00:34:05Right.
00:34:05So I got up and walked out, and on the way out, I grabbed a piece of paper, which was their
00:34:10financial report, they were required by law to publish it, so they did, and they were
00:34:15about to lose their 501c3, had planted a massive megachurch, headfirst went under, I guess, in
00:34:22this, and ran out of money, so needed money to fund the expense to cover the expense to
00:34:27save the 501c3.
00:34:30This was a big mess.
00:34:31So all of this to say, my experience coming out of the cult wasn't a good one.
00:34:37When I started going to churches, I did find a good one, and I'm not going to mention
00:34:41the denomination name, which I'll explain why here in a minute.
00:34:46At the same time all of this is going on, and I'm doing these 30-, 45-minute sermonettes,
00:34:53well, I'm starting to realize two things that are significant.
00:34:56Number one, as I'm doing it, I'm trying to understand the theology in its correctness
00:35:06according to the Bible, but there's so much of my background that was hindering that.
00:35:13And I realized that unless I go to study theology for a decade, I'm going to be ineffective at
00:35:20doing this.
00:35:22So instead, I'm going to try to help people out of the cult and let people who are far
00:35:26more experienced than me do the things that they're better suited to do than me.
00:35:30While I'm doing this, I encountered a problem.
00:35:36Well, two problems.
00:35:37The first of which is I had been bruised, like you had described, with this Jesus that wasn't
00:35:44the real one.
00:35:46This was a domineering, very angry Jesus who would come down and condemn you.
00:35:52Who wanted you to suffer if you did anything wrong?
00:35:55We're being taught –
00:35:56Darrell Bock The God of vengeance.
00:35:57Darrell Bock The God of vengeance and wrath.
00:36:00So this God of vengeance is in the back of my head, and when I hear these sermons, I could
00:36:05go to a mainstream Christian church, and it's very odd because they're preaching the right
00:36:12Jesus, but every once in a while, if they get an angry itch in their ear, they'll come
00:36:18out and the angry Jesus comes out of their mouth.
00:36:20Well, I'm sensitive to this because I've been bruised by this, so I'm sitting in
00:36:25a good church that has a good sermon, good crowd, loving people, and suddenly I see the
00:36:31dark side of the pastor come out, and I come unglued.
00:36:35Like you, I get up and walk out.
00:36:38I still struggle with this.
00:36:40So while all of that is going on, I'm also dealing with cult members who are escaping.
00:36:46We formed this underground network of ex-cult support.
00:36:51So I'm helping the people.
00:36:53I'm pointing them to resources, all of this stuff.
00:36:56Well, what happens is men who – and mostly men, but some women – who had the – whatever
00:37:06the human trait is that they want to be very overpowering, overbearing, and in control, wanted
00:37:14to control the doctrine of the group, and it was not a group established for doctrine.
00:37:22So people were coming in contact with the same authoritarian control that they had left,
00:37:27but now from my peers in the group who are helping with the support networks.
00:37:31And this turned into a mess because we had people in the support networks who were suffering
00:37:39because they had the wrong Jesus.
00:37:41They had the, you know, the God of wrath type Jesus in the back of their heads.
00:37:47We were starting to hear similarities in the support networks from people who were supposed
00:37:53to be trying to help but are actually doing more damage than good.
00:37:56And one of them contacted me, and actually more than one – I think there were three
00:38:03in a row within the course of a month – said, John, I know that we've left this thing and
00:38:08it was entirely wrong, but if Jesus looks like this, I won't know part of it.
00:38:13That's a narcissistic God.
00:38:15And he left Christianity forever.
00:38:17I'll never forget that first one.
00:38:19It hurt me.
00:38:19Darrell Bock Yeah, it's painful.
00:38:20Darrell Bock While I'm dealing with this, I'm still dealing
00:38:23with the narcissistic God, and I'm trying to hang on to that.
00:38:27Darrell Bock Right, right.
00:38:28Darrell Bock I'm trying – some part of that must be real, right?
00:38:30Darrell Bock Right.
00:38:31Darrell Bock But it turns out there wasn't an aspect of that
00:38:34God that was real.
00:38:36Eventually, I came to the same point of those who were burned in the support groups, I had
00:38:42to tear down the false God.
00:38:43Darrell Bock Right.
00:38:44Darrell Bock At that point, I had no God.
00:38:46Darrell Bock Right.
00:38:46Darrell Bock I had no Jesus.
00:38:47Darrell Bock Right.
00:38:47Darrell Bock I had no nothing.
00:38:48Darrell Bock Right.
00:38:48Darrell Bock Right.
00:38:49Darrell Bock So when I tore this down, now I'm in a support
00:38:51group with these other people who are just so controlling and domineering, and I'm watching
00:38:56all of this, and I said, look, I'm going to – Jesus went and he – what did he do?
00:39:02Darrell Bock He went to the people who were oppressed, the sinners, the prostitutes, the
00:39:07ones nobody wanted.
00:39:08Darrell Bock Right.
00:39:08Darrell Bock I left all of those support groups, and I went into the one group that was remaining
00:39:13where it didn't matter if you were atheist, if you were Buddhist, if you were agnostic,
00:39:20whatever you are.
00:39:21Darrell Bock Right.
00:39:22Darrell Bock I went into that one and I said, look, I've been burned by all of this stuff,
00:39:25I'll help manage this.
00:39:27Darrell Bock Right.
00:39:28Darrell Bock And I did for several years until, I guess, last year, I finally walked away from
00:39:32it.
00:39:33Darrell Bock But I had been burned, I had been bruised, and
00:39:36where I'm heading with all of this is people ask me, where do you go, what do you do?
00:39:41Darrell Bock Right.
00:39:42Darrell Bock And it's very difficult for me to tell them, the very first thing you have
00:39:45to do is, the God, the false God that you had programmed in your head, you have to get
00:39:50rid of that, and that will be actually – for me, it was more painful than walking away from
00:39:56the cult.
00:39:57Darrell Bock I had to tear down the false God in my head.
00:39:59Darrell Bock Did you have an Etchisketz when you were a kid?
00:40:01Darrell Bock I did.
00:40:02Darrell Bock Right.
00:40:03Darrell Bock So, you'll understand this.
00:40:04Darrell Bock I call it the Etchisketz moment for our generation, because almost all of
00:40:09us had an Etchisketz, which if people don't know what that is, it was like this little
00:40:13thing with two knobs, and you could draw things on it, right, by controlling it.
00:40:17Darrell Bock Anyways, when you got done making something, what did you do?
00:40:21Darrell Bock You shook it, right?
00:40:23Darrell Bock Yeah.
00:40:24Darrell Bock And everything disappeared.
00:40:25Darrell Bock So, when I deal with our age, I'm always going, well, you're having an Etchisketz
00:40:32Etchisketz moment, and they all look at me, and they start laughing, because it's like
00:40:36if they had one, they know exactly what I'm talking about.
00:40:39Darrell Bock Yeah.
00:40:40Darrell Bock It's like you built this thing for so many years, right?
00:40:42Darrell Bock And then all of a sudden, you're doing this, and it's like everything's gone,
00:40:46right?
00:40:47Darrell Bock Yeah.
00:40:47Darrell Bock And you got to start all over again.
00:40:48Darrell Bock And that's hard.
00:40:50Darrell Bock That's a hard journey.
00:40:52Darrell Bock Not only, well, it's hard for a couple reasons.
00:40:57Darrell Bock One, you're not naive anymore.
00:40:59Darrell Bock Yeah.
00:41:00Darrell Bock But the second reason why it's a hard journey is you're wounded to the point where
00:41:07you can barely function, right?
00:41:09Darrell Bock So it's not like you're starting in neutral, you're starting in a deficit, like
00:41:13a huge hole, right?
00:41:15Darrell Bock Yeah.
00:41:15Darrell Bock Because you're hurt, and you're wounded, and you're angry, and you're disillusioned,
00:41:19and in some cases, it's like, God, if you even exist, I don't even want to be around you.
00:41:25Darrell Bock If this is your world, I'm not into it.
00:41:29I was there when I was 11.
00:41:30Darrell Bock I told God to take a hike.
00:41:33Darrell Bock I said it a little bit more graphically than that, but I mean, that's because Martin Luther
00:41:38King, Bobby Kennedy, all kinds of stuff happened in 68, and I remember it.
00:41:42Darrell Bock That was disillusioned, you know?
00:41:44Darrell Bock I got to tell you another story that I think
00:41:47kind of ties into this authenticity issue, you know, especially in the 80s, you know,
00:41:55it was the whole thing, everybody's trying to be apostles, prophets, you know, that became
00:41:59a big deal.
00:42:01I don't remember that before that.
00:42:04Darrell Bock It might have been there, probably you guys had
00:42:07it in your cult world, but for me, as a Catholic, and then an existentialist, and then even as
00:42:16an evangelical, it didn't, it wasn't a thing, right, until I came to Kansas City in 82, and
00:42:23we launched the church, and suddenly I was presented with all this, and there was this pressure coming
00:42:31from so many in that charismatic Pentecostal world to define ourselves as apostle, prophet,
00:42:38like we had to slot ourselves into one of the five-fold ministries, right?
00:42:42Well, are you familiar with Hallmark Cards?
00:42:44Darrell Bock Yes.
00:42:45Darrell Bock Right, so Hallmark is headquartered here
00:42:47in Kansas City, and in the 1980s, they had a New Zealand photographer named Ann Geddes, who
00:42:56had all of these images of little children that she dressed in adult clothes.
00:43:02It was very cute, right?
00:43:04So you'd have a little boy kind of wearing his dad's suit, right, and his baggy pants
00:43:10with a little rose handing it to a little girl that was dressed like a mom, you know what
00:43:14I mean?
00:43:15So she, and it was, I mean, this thing was huge for Hallmark.
00:43:20I mean, huge, right?
00:43:21Because everybody loved these images.
00:43:23They were sentimental.
00:43:24They were cute.
00:43:25They were everything.
00:43:26So I'm in a Hallmark store, and again, you know, take it for what it's worth.
00:43:32I felt like God talked to me, like I had this impression, like I felt like the Holy Spirit
00:43:37was saying something to me, because I hear this little voice inside of me go, that's you
00:43:43guys.
00:43:43And I'm thinking, that's us?
00:43:46Yeah, you're wannabes.
00:43:49You're little children pretending to be adults.
00:43:53And I was so impacted by that, because again, I wasn't even thinking along those lines.
00:44:00My whole focus was, who am I?
00:44:02What am I?
00:44:03You know, am I an apostle prophet?
00:44:05You know, where do I fit in this?
00:44:06And suddenly, I'm hearing this little voice inside of me going, you're a kid.
00:44:11So anyways, I come back to the church, and we're having a staff meeting, and during the
00:44:18staff meeting, I share my experience, and oh my God, I tell you, you could have dropped
00:44:23a pin or a feather in the room.
00:44:26Like, it was just dead quiet.
00:44:27Like, nobody knew what to do with that.
00:44:28And I just said, I'm not trying to discourage any of us, but can we be sober-minded here?
00:44:36Like, can we just, like, have an adult conversation and really evaluate, are we really apostles?
00:44:47We're 20 years old, right?
00:44:49It's like, are we really prophets, right?
00:44:54The only thing that's been hard about that, honestly, and again, I'm just being vulnerable
00:45:00here, is, and I've wrestled with this, is like, do I have an idealistic view of what
00:45:08those things are?
00:45:09Because I don't really know anybody that's any of those things, right?
00:45:14And whenever I, again, this goes back to this authenticity thing, because I find myself
00:45:21really struggling when guys stand up, or women, for that matter, and say, I'm an apostle.
00:45:29There's just something goes off inside of me, like, uh-uh, right?
00:45:34It's just like, I cannot embrace that.
00:45:40Why?
00:45:40Because I have this standard of what an apostle should be that's significantly more influential,
00:45:48more impactful, or whatever, or even profit, right?
00:45:52That's one of the reasons why, despite what Mike was presenting to everyone at Kansas City
00:45:58Fellowship, that we had three prophets, I kept saying, no, we have three guys that are wannabe,
00:46:07right, three guys that have various giftings, but I would not consider any of them as being
00:46:13prophet.
00:46:14Why?
00:46:14Because I had this standard.
00:46:16In fact, what got me into trouble is that I kept trying to explain to people, guys like
00:46:22Alexander Solzhenitsyn were far more prophetic than anybody in the church world, because he
00:46:29was prophesying exactly in 1970 where America would be today, right?
00:46:35These are guys who spoke to the nation, right, and had this plumb line, right, and called us
00:46:44back to certain things.
00:46:45And there's some, but I don't see them in the church world.
00:46:49I see them outside the church world.
00:46:52Now, are they Christians?
00:46:53Yes.
00:46:54But none of them would define themselves as prophets, which makes me go, that's why you're
00:46:59a prophet, right?
00:47:01In other words, it's like they don't take themselves seriously like that.
00:47:06So I, that's why this authenticity thing is so huge to me, because it's like, quit pretending.
00:47:13Like, it's like, sometimes I feel like I walk into church and it's like a big theater stage
00:47:19or it's a production and we're, we're pretending, right?
00:47:23It's like, like, we're all wannabe.
00:47:26And what I really am interested in, I, I, I, I get myself in trouble for saying this all
00:47:31the time.
00:47:32Give me the broken over the, you know, the holy, because the truth of it is I've never
00:47:39actually met anyone that's really holy.
00:47:41I know they all claim it and they do all the kind of things.
00:47:45They don't smoke.
00:47:45They don't drink.
00:47:46They don't dance.
00:47:47They read their Bible every day.
00:47:48They pray every day.
00:47:49Like they have, they have a routine that makes them look holy, right?
00:47:52But then as I drill down in their lives, I find out the absolute mess that's behind the
00:47:58scenes, right?
00:47:59Where, you know, I've spent years dealing with drug addicts and, and, and people in prison
00:48:05and all that.
00:48:06And there's a certain authenticity and brokenness that comes from people like that.
00:48:11And it's like, I find that, you know, I find broken people just way more real.
00:48:18In fact, now I'm going to really get myself on.
00:48:21You talk about, you got me opening up here.
00:48:24In fact, I have said to my friends, why the heck don't we open a church in a bar?
00:48:31Because I find bars way more authentic than churches, right?
00:48:36It's like everybody at the bar is just, and it's just like, especially after they have
00:48:42a few drinks, right?
00:48:43And then it's just like, and I'm like, I just struggle with this.
00:48:47These are things I struggle with.
00:48:48So it's like, for me looking, you know, it's like the things I always look for is I, so
00:48:54let me, I'll just give you a list here and you can just jump off on any one of these
00:48:57things.
00:48:58But I, I look for places where the church and the leadership are authentic.
00:49:03That's kind of at the top of my list.
00:49:08I'm looking for places whose priority is to build relationships over population.
00:49:16Like who's really interested in me?
00:49:18Am I a statistic?
00:49:20You know what I mean?
00:49:21Am I, am I bragging rights?
00:49:24Am I another number?
00:49:25Am I another notch in your belt?
00:49:27Do you even give a damn about me and my life and what I'm going through?
00:49:32Do you care?
00:49:33Like, do you ask questions that are probing and drill down that make me know that you're
00:49:39interested in what's actually going on in my life?
00:49:43Or do you just want to give me a nice Christian, bless you brother.
00:49:48God loves you, right?
00:49:50So again, I'm just laying it out there.
00:49:53Um, I look for places that are populated with peacemakers, healers, and unifiers, people
00:50:02who want to resolve conflict, right?
00:50:06People who want to mend relationships, people who work really hard to hold diversity and
00:50:12harmony.
00:50:13I don't want everybody to agree with me.
00:50:16I don't want everybody to have the same perspective to me.
00:50:18Why?
00:50:19Because I want to learn.
00:50:21I want to understand.
00:50:22I want people to have a different point of view, but I don't want people that who are
00:50:29so insecure and so arrogant that they need to be right.
00:50:34And so everything is a war.
00:50:36Everything's a religious war to prove me wrong.
00:50:40Just share your perspective with me.
00:50:42I, I, that's what I want, right?
00:50:43Um, I avoid narcissistic leaders like the plague.
00:50:47And like I just said, I got a, a BS meter that just goes off.
00:50:51I, I've been around so many of them.
00:50:53And unfortunately, um, and again, I'm getting myself in trouble here.
00:50:58Unfortunately, they tend to be in a certain population within the church world.
00:51:03And it's usually guys running churches of over 5,000 people.
00:51:06I, I, I hate to say that, but I'm just telling you after 40 years in this world, um, there's
00:51:15a high probability, uh, that the guy that you are going to see at your mega church, that's
00:51:21very entertaining, probably is not very good at interpersonal relationships and very good
00:51:26at the show.
00:51:27He's the PT Barnum, right?
00:51:30So I avoid the Sunday show.
00:51:32If I go and I feel like this is a show, I'm out of there.
00:51:36I look for churches that keep it simple, right?
00:51:39You know, you know, there's 40,000 different denominations out there.
00:51:43I mean, what does that say?
00:51:47Brother John, you know, you need to baptize by immersion.
00:51:51You can't sprinkle.
00:51:52I don't know.
00:51:53You don't agree with me.
00:51:54I'm going to go start another denomination, right?
00:51:57You know, it's just that kind of a thing.
00:51:59You know, something, um, again, this is another weird Bob ism, but I just find
00:52:06communion in the modern church world interesting because what is communion based on?
00:52:12Like the whole communion, right?
00:52:15If whatever you want to call it, ceremony is based on something.
00:52:18And you know what it was?
00:52:20Fellowship.
00:52:21Yeah.
00:52:21But it's the last supper, right?
00:52:24And what, what was that?
00:52:26That's a Jewish festival that's family and relationships like you're just talking about.
00:52:34And it's, it's, it's not a 10 minute ceremony.
00:52:39It's a whole evening of friendship and fellowship and celebrating our history.
00:52:46And right.
00:52:46It's this huge thing.
00:52:48And it's relational.
00:52:50A couple of weeks ago, I go to this church and it's communion and they, the usher guys
00:52:57come by and they hand me a packet.
00:53:00And I was like, what?
00:53:01It looks like, uh, you know, a dip you get at Chick-fil-A, right?
00:53:06Is this barbecue or hot mustard?
00:53:09Right.
00:53:09And I opened it up and one side, a little cracker and the other side's wine.
00:53:15And I'm like, oh my God, it's even got to the point now where we've got a whole product.
00:53:21We got a communion product now.
00:53:23We have a whole industry around communion.
00:53:26And I'm like, God, I can't do this.
00:53:29I just can't do this anymore.
00:53:32It's like, where can we just get back to like having a meal?
00:53:36Like, can we like have fellowship?
00:53:39You know what I mean?
00:53:40It's like, what happened to all that?
00:53:42Sorry, I'm ranting, but it's just really bothering me, right?
00:53:45It's like, can we get back to simplicity again?
00:53:48Well, you're leading me into the last point I was going to make.
00:53:51Interestingly, it's quite the same as yours, but a little bit deeper.
00:53:55I'll go with this.
00:53:56What you're describing is community.
00:53:59You need to find a church.
00:54:00If you're looking for a church and you're asking us, where do you go after leaving a cult?
00:54:03You find one that's a healthy community, and you'll know if it's healthy.
00:54:07If you walk in and you have to conform to their community, it's not a healthy community.
00:54:12If they accept you, they welcome you.
00:54:15Show up in dirty bib overalls and see how you're accepted.
00:54:20If you're in a healthy community, it doesn't matter what you look like, dress like.
00:54:24It doesn't matter if you walk in and you're the lowest sinner on earth.
00:54:27That's what Christianity was for, to save the sinner.
00:54:30So walk up and look like a lowest sinner and see how they treat you.
00:54:35But deeper than that.
00:54:36So in the Branham cult, and this is common among many Pentecostal circles, we had the communion,
00:54:43but we also had the foot washing.
00:54:46So picture this scene.
00:54:48Everybody in these Pentecostal-style cults, they go bathe.
00:54:53They put on their fresh colognes.
00:54:55They're wearing these fancy suits and ties and clean socks, and they walk in.
00:55:01You need to wash each other's feet.
00:55:04And everybody's getting down on their knees, and they're washing clean feet.
00:55:09Now, they're referencing the passage in the Bible.
00:55:11You're familiar with it, where he's doing this.
00:55:14But picture the ancient world.
00:55:15This was the lowest, nastiest, grossest thing that you could ever do.
00:55:22These were people who wore sandals, who might have stepped in camel dew.
00:55:27This was nasty.
00:55:28This was the lowest thing.
00:55:30And the concept behind – if you understand what the passage means, it means that I'm Christ.
00:55:36You want to become like me, then you need to become a servant for others.
00:55:42Not a hierarchy where you're esteemed, the apostle, the prophet, all of these things.
00:55:48But see, what has happened in the churches, people aren't asking the right questions.
00:55:53They're not coming in saying, why are we doing this?
00:55:57What is this tradition we're in?
00:55:59And I said I was going to open up.
00:56:01I'm opening up way more than I – I don't think I ever have like this.
00:56:03Right.
00:56:04I appreciate it, though.
00:56:05I really do.
00:56:06One of the shell shocks that I had when I started going into mainstream churches, I do not understand their culture.
00:56:12And their tradition is Christian tradition in America.
00:56:16Every denomination seems to share some of these traits and beliefs and things that they do.
00:56:21I didn't.
00:56:22So I go into it.
00:56:23What is this?
00:56:24Why are you doing this?
00:56:25Right.
00:56:26And they'll give me passages of Scripture.
00:56:28But if you read the passage, it's like the foot washing thing.
00:56:31That doesn't make sense.
00:56:32That's not even close to resembling what it was.
00:56:35Right.
00:56:35So we had this tradition, foot washing.
00:56:38Well, Jesus is saying, become the servant.
00:56:42What I tell people when they leave and they go to another church, do you feel like the pastor is your equal?
00:56:48And much like you said when you were talking about the children wearing the clothes, I know many pastors.
00:56:55I know many people, so-called prophets, et cetera.
00:56:58These are guys just like you and me.
00:57:00They put on their pants the same way I do.
00:57:02Yeah, exactly.
00:57:03In fact, some of them, I would say, even back in the cult, I would say they were far worse of a sinner than half their congregations.
00:57:10They were doing awful, awful things.
00:57:13But the people had put them up on this pedestal where when you go in, you had to submit to their authority because they're greater than you.
00:57:21They're more spiritual.
00:57:22When I started entering mainstream churches, the first one we attended, absolutely the same way.
00:57:28The minister had, I believe, I'm not a psychologist, but I believe there were some narcissistic traits.
00:57:36And I felt it.
00:57:38You can just feel it when it's like this, right?
00:57:40I was uncomfortable with this.
00:57:42Second one wasn't that way, but they had some other issues.
00:57:45But you can really tell the church is where the minister is down to your level and the minister who wants you to respect him as higher than your level.
00:57:55Right.
00:57:55If you're going into a church and your minister wants you to believe that he's more of a human than you are, this is the wrong place to be run screaming.
00:58:05Well, I think the Apostle Paul kind of defined it pretty vividly because he defined himself as a bondservant, right?
00:58:18I mean, that's how he introduced himself.
00:58:20Like, I'm a slave to Christ.
00:58:22Like, I'm at the bottom, right?
00:58:24Right.
00:58:25And so, I think you're absolutely right.
00:58:28I think that's what we got to look for, you know?
00:58:34Man.
00:58:35So much to talk to me.
00:58:37I feel uncomfortable.
00:58:38I've opened up way too much.
00:58:40Well, you know what?
00:58:42I think people will appreciate it, honestly.
00:58:44I mean, I think right now, I mean, obviously, with everything that's happened with the Charlie Kirk thing that happened last week, I think there's a lot of rawness right now.
00:58:56I mean, I think a lot of people are feeling very raw and I think are interested in having authentic and honest conversations.
00:59:07One thing I will share, one of the reasons why I encourage people to embrace the disillusionment and the that's a sketch moment where you start off at zero.
00:59:20So, I have to tell you, you know, I grew up Catholic and then quit going to church as an 11-year-old and then had a spiritual experience at 18 and then got shipped off to Bible school.
00:59:32So, here I am, you know, in Estes Park, Colorado at Bible school, only to discover I'm the only kid at the school who didn't grow up in an evangelical home, who didn't grow up in Sunday school, who didn't know.
00:59:49Like, all the other kids really didn't want to be there, but their parents were sending them there, right, to further their Christian education.
00:59:56So, the reason why this is so funny was, is that the very first day of school, the teacher said, turn to Luke 12.
01:00:08Well, I have no idea where Luke 12 is, but I remembered that all books have a table of contents, right?
01:00:15So, I flip over to the table of contents and I'm going down through all these books and I get to Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, right?
01:00:24And I turn to the guy next to me and I go, where's the Atlanteans?
01:00:29And he goes, he just looks at me like, you idiot, right?
01:00:33It was like the most condescending look.
01:00:36But I was so sincere, right?
01:00:38Because it was like, I said to him, I go, there's all these aints and civilians.
01:00:42Where's the Atlanteans?
01:00:43Why are they not in here, right?
01:00:45And he just like looks at me, right?
01:00:47And then he just realizes I'm really struggling.
01:00:51So, he just begrudgingly grabs my Bible, flips it over to Luke 12, throws it back on my desk and I go, oh my God, I didn't know the Good Samaritan story was in the Bible.
01:01:06And everybody in the class just starts laughing at me, right?
01:01:10Because I'd grown up Catholic, right?
01:01:12And they always said, reading from the gospel of, but nobody ever told us what a gospel was.
01:01:18So, I never knew that a gospel was in a Bible, right?
01:01:22So, my whole point in this is that my introduction to the Bible was me with no prejudices, no precondition.
01:01:35So, I'm identifying with what you're talking about in your journey because you start off like everything's open.
01:01:44Everything's open, right?
01:01:46You don't come at it like I know.
01:01:50Because here's the problem is that I realize that so much of Christianity and so much of what happens in church is you're told where to look, you're told what to see, and you're told how to interpret it.
01:02:05So, what you really have is you have this whole world of echoes, right?
01:02:10You see this all the time, and the reason you can tell who's an echo and who's a voice is all you got to do is ask them a few probing questions, and eventually get to, well, I believe it because my pastor told me.
01:02:21They can't actually explain it, right?
01:02:24And then you realize they really don't know what they're talking about.
01:02:27They're just an echo, which is most of American Christians right now.
01:02:32They really don't know.
01:02:32But what it did for me, and this is why I tell everybody to embrace the journey, is I just read what was there, right?
01:02:40And I had the same kind of reaction you did.
01:02:43Like, I am sitting here reading Jesus is healing the Roman centurion servant.
01:02:51And I understand a little bit because I'm a historian, and I understand a little bit, like, this is the Nazi guy.
01:02:56Like, this is the Gestapo guy.
01:02:58Yeah.
01:02:58And what's Jesus doing?
01:03:00Like, this is the enemy, right?
01:03:03And I'm like, okay.
01:03:06I wasn't expecting that, right?
01:03:07And then you read the good, you know, the story of the Samaritan woman at the well.
01:03:11And I'm like, wait a minute.
01:03:13That's the enemy.
01:03:15That's the heretic.
01:03:17That's, in fact, they have their own temple and their own priesthood and their own scriptures up there.
01:03:22Like, they're the cult from the guys down in Judea, right?
01:03:25They're the cult.
01:03:26And he's, like, having this open-air conversation in the middle of the public square.
01:03:33I'm like, whoa, wait a minute here, right?
01:03:36And then I start, what that did was lead me down this whole road of the Crusades.
01:03:41Like, it's like, wait a minute.
01:03:42Like, the history of Christianity is if we don't agree with people, we kill them, right?
01:03:47Which is what you experienced in the cult.
01:03:49Like, I'm like, oh, my God, you left the cult.
01:03:51So what do we go?
01:03:52We got to kill John.
01:03:53That's like, man, it's been going on.
01:03:58Like, there's nothing new like that, right?
01:04:00But my whole point is that embrace the disillusionment and start over.
01:04:05Because it's something really refreshing.
01:04:08Jesus said we got to be like little children to enter the kingdom of God.
01:04:12That doesn't mean we need to be stupid.
01:04:13It just means, like, start, go back to innocence.
01:04:18Like, pretend you don't know.
01:04:20And pursue things, whether you're reading the Bible or you're looking for a church.
01:04:26Go back to the simple things.
01:04:28Go be a little child.
01:04:29Look for what's genuine and real and authentic.
01:04:32And go back and reread Jesus again as though you didn't ever know him.
01:04:39Because you just discover all kinds of things that will just shock you that you weren't told.
01:04:44And the only thing I'll add to that is there's not one single Bible verse that says that you won't enter into heaven if you have a theology that isn't perfect.
01:04:54But yet, whenever you leave these things, you'll find this swarm of people, some of them have never been in a cult before.
01:05:02And they're saying, you've got to be careful.
01:05:04These people who leave, they have to have the correct theology that I have.
01:05:08I have the correct theology.
01:05:10And you're like, well, that next guy over there, he says he has it too.
01:05:14And you're in conflict.
01:05:14Which one is it?
01:05:16Which one of the 40,000 different versions do you want, right?
01:05:20Exactly.
01:05:20You know, and like I said, I cleaned my slate entirely.
01:05:25I mean, I'm down to the point where I'm asking the simplest questions like I'm pretending that I'm seven years old again.
01:05:33And I'm saying things like, okay, I'm told that Jesus was born of a virgin.
01:05:39Was he?
01:05:39And I open up the Bible and I'm reading through.
01:05:41Okay, why does it say this?
01:05:43I'm down to that level.
01:05:45I'm like, this is a new religion to me.
01:05:48I want to pretend it's new.
01:05:49I want to relearn everything.
01:05:52And again, you're going to have people who, if you take that pathway, that's the harder path.
01:05:57Because you're going to have people where if you ask the basic questions, they do not want you asking them.
01:06:03They think you're, oh, he's questioning Christianity.
01:06:06He's going to become an atheist.
01:06:08We must stop him.
01:06:09We must halt this thing, right?
01:06:11Well, in my opinion, and I've said this a few different ways, if you were in a cult and you had a different God, you must become an atheist before you become something else.
01:06:22I tend to agree with that.
01:06:24In fact, the way that I define it or that I explain it to people that are on the journey is I said he was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
01:06:33But he wasn't your God, meaning that for most people, they were handed down a tradition, right?
01:06:41It was the religion of your parents and your grandparents, right?
01:06:46And you were conditioned.
01:06:48You were programmed.
01:06:48You were told where to look, what to see, and how to interpret.
01:06:51But he was never yours.
01:06:52You never had a relationship.
01:06:54You didn't discover him on your own.
01:06:56None of this is you, right?
01:06:58You're just mimicking what everybody told you, right?
01:07:03So I think, I mean, this is going to sound wild to people.
01:07:07I think it's the mercy of God to T-bone you, to let you go through disillusionment.
01:07:14Because what's he after?
01:07:15An authentic relationship.
01:07:17He's not interested in your religion.
01:07:19Gosh, if there isn't a thousand, not a thousand, but if there isn't dozens of verses in the Old Testament about how much, you know, from the prophets,
01:07:25it's about how much God hates religion and root, you know what I mean?
01:07:30It's like everywhere.
01:07:31It's like, I don't care.
01:07:32Do you love the poor?
01:07:34You know what I mean?
01:07:35I don't care about your dumb money.
01:07:38Yeah.
01:07:39You know, are you giving it to people that need it?
01:07:41You know what I mean?
01:07:42That's what he cares about.
01:07:43Like, he cares about motive.
01:07:45And I see this, that's what I, it was my big discovery in reading the New Testament.
01:07:50It wasn't about the theology.
01:07:52It was about the motive.
01:07:53Why are you doing what you're doing?
01:07:55What's driving you?
01:07:57You know, it's funny.
01:07:57I came to the same realization, but my words were different back then.
01:08:02And I'm sharing way too much now.
01:08:04People are going to kill me.
01:08:05But back then.
01:08:06No, I think you're being honest.
01:08:07And again, you're sharing a perspective.
01:08:09And so anybody that goes after you, I just think is like, come on, grow up.
01:08:13You know what I mean?
01:08:14Well, back then I came to the conclusion that a large portion of Christianity had turned the Bible itself into an idol.
01:08:21And that's a podcast we could have on another day.
01:08:25Right.
01:08:26Right.
01:08:26Exactly.
01:08:27Thank you for doing this.
01:08:28This was far more uncomfortable than I thought it would be.
01:08:33I'm opened up way too much.
01:08:35No, no, no, no.
01:08:36I just, you know what it was?
01:08:38It was authentic.
01:08:40It was authentic John.
01:08:42So, no, no, I appreciate it.
01:08:44I honestly, as your friend, I've appreciated everything you've shared because it's, you know, it's like I want to know you.
01:08:51I want to understand your journey, right?
01:08:52That's what, to me, Christianity is at its very essence.
01:08:56It's like, well, who's John?
01:08:58And what's inside of him?
01:08:59And what's his story?
01:09:00And how does he see things?
01:09:02So, no, I'm very thankful for today.
01:09:04Darrell Bock Well, good.
01:09:06And you reminded me of one other last point that I was going to make.
01:09:10Your journey, because you've been taught this false sense of urgency in the cults, you think the journey must happen quickly.
01:09:16Yeah.
01:09:17I'm still on a journey, and I don't know that in my lifetime, I don't know that I'll finish this journey.
01:09:21And the people that you choose as friends, if they're real friends, they respect you and help you on your journey rather than condemn you because you're on a journey.
01:09:31Yeah, exactly.
01:09:32So, with that, I'll end it.
01:09:33Darrell Bock Thank you so much.
01:09:35No, no, this is good.
01:09:36This is really good.
01:09:37Darrell Bock Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
01:09:41You can find us at william-branham.org.
01:09:43For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.
01:09:50And for more about Mike Bickle and IHOPKC, you can read Some Say They Blundered, Breaking My Decades of Silence on Mike Bickle, the Kansas City Prophets, and the International House of Prayer.
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