- 1 day ago
John and Pia discuss the Toronto Blessing, the rapid growth of revival culture in Southern California, and Pia’s experiences at Abundant Life Community Church and Harvest Rock Church. They examine fasting, continuous prayer, laying on of hands, physical manifestations, prophetic ministry and the growing influence of C. Peter Wagner, Che Ahn and Lou Engle.
They also trace connections between earlier Pentecostal movements, the Latter Rain, the Healing Revival, the Vineyard, the Kansas City Prophets and the New Apostolic Reformation. The discussion considers whether revival was spiritually genuine or humanly orchestrated, while examining leadership accountability, ministry branding, celebrity culture, financial integrity, institutional loyalty and the long-term effects on individuals and families.
00:00 Introduction
02:43 Pia’s First Taste of Revival
10:19 The Historical Roots Behind Modern Revival
15:15 The 1994 Earthquake and Toronto Blessing
18:13 Manifestations, Division, and the “Laughing Revival”
21:46 Revival Leaders Arrive in California
24:08 Harvest Rock and the Revival Explosion
29:08 The Formation and Growth of the NAR
33:19 Does History Keep Repeating Itself?
38:16 Pia Reflects on What Was God and What Was Man
41:21 How the Internet Accelerated Revival
46:20 Pia Is Kicked Out and Leaves the Movement
48:09 Was the Revival Worth the Cost?
51:59 Pia’s List of the Negative Effects of the NAR
56:18 Lives Changed, Lives Ruined, and Moving On
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
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– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
They also trace connections between earlier Pentecostal movements, the Latter Rain, the Healing Revival, the Vineyard, the Kansas City Prophets and the New Apostolic Reformation. The discussion considers whether revival was spiritually genuine or humanly orchestrated, while examining leadership accountability, ministry branding, celebrity culture, financial integrity, institutional loyalty and the long-term effects on individuals and families.
00:00 Introduction
02:43 Pia’s First Taste of Revival
10:19 The Historical Roots Behind Modern Revival
15:15 The 1994 Earthquake and Toronto Blessing
18:13 Manifestations, Division, and the “Laughing Revival”
21:46 Revival Leaders Arrive in California
24:08 Harvest Rock and the Revival Explosion
29:08 The Formation and Growth of the NAR
33:19 Does History Keep Repeating Itself?
38:16 Pia Reflects on What Was God and What Was Man
41:21 How the Internet Accelerated Revival
46:20 Pia Is Kicked Out and Leaves the Movement
48:09 Was the Revival Worth the Cost?
51:59 Pia’s List of the Negative Effects of the NAR
56:18 Lives Changed, Lives Ruined, and Moving On
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Pia Hugo, former member
00:46of the New Apostolic Reformation.
00:48Pia, it's good to be back and to talk about revival.
00:52We've covered all of the different mechanics of this engine that we have been describing
00:57with New Apostolic Reformation.
00:58One of the key components or one of the key cogs is revival, and I thought whenever I
01:05was in this type of movement, I was in the revival movements, even though my version was older
01:10than yours, I thought when a revival happened, it was this big thing, God come down, he manifested
01:16himself to the crowd, and the crowd received the blessing.
01:19But the more that I started to learn about revival, it's quite different.
01:24It's very much orchestrated with a marketing engine, a advertising engine.
01:30You've got, when we talk about the machine, all these different cogs, well, many of those
01:34cogs are man-made.
01:35And I began to formulate the hypothesis.
01:39It wasn't really, at that point, it wasn't the fulfillment of my research, but I hypothesized,
01:45well, if man is bringing it on, is it really of God?
01:49That's really the question that I started to ask.
01:52And then I started digging into these revivals, and oh my gosh, they were not at all what I
01:57expected.
01:58And anyway, it's good to have you back and to talk through some of these things.
02:03Hello, John, and hello, everyone else.
02:05It is always a pleasure to be here, especially because, as I said in the last podcast, I am
02:14here in the Philippines, and I, you know, it's funny, I've been talking more in my native
02:20tongue, so it's almost an adjustment to me to start talking again in American English.
02:28As we like to say here, as opposed to the British English, which is totally different.
02:35But anyway, I am very, very happy to be here.
02:39And yes, let's talk revival.
02:43I agree with you, John.
02:46My first taste of revival, I'm going to put that in quotes, was in 1994.
02:53And that's really where I want to start our podcast today.
03:001994, there was this little thing called the Toronto Blessing.
03:07And it started in Canada with John and Carol Arnott, and somehow made its way to Southern
03:15California.
03:19And just like what you said, you know, I was in my 20s at this time.
03:25We had just moved.
03:27We, as in my ex-husband now, and myself and our kids, who were very little at that time,
03:35we moved from Maryland to Southern California.
03:42And the year was 1991.
03:45At this point, Che On and Lou Engel were co-pastoring a tiny little church in Pasadena, California,
03:56called Abundant Life Community Church.
03:59And they were part of a bigger entity called PDI, People of Destiny International, led by
04:09Larry Tomczak and CJ Mahaney, who were best buds with Che On back in the day.
04:18So that was everything we talked about last time.
04:21So I just want to jump in for this podcast and move forward to 1994.
04:32So by this time, we had been doing 40-day fasts.
04:38We had been doing 24-7 prayer.
04:46And we were all contending for that big revival.
04:51So when it didn't come right away, because, you know, when we received word from Che,
04:58you need to come here.
04:59It's imminent, you know.
05:00And so we packed up and moved.
05:02And 1991, we arrived, got settled, 1992 went by, 1993 went by.
05:11I'm not saying that we didn't see a move of God.
05:15But I honestly, personally felt I went through a mini revival for myself.
05:23Like, I felt something had been ignited, you know, because I don't want to rehash what happened
05:32at PDI.
05:32But I was starting to get a little bit disillusioned with PDI.
05:38I had watched my co-worker that I named Sally in another podcast just deteriorate in her mental
05:48health.
05:49And I just needed something different.
05:53And I found it, John.
05:55I found it when I went to Southern California and joined Che and Lou, because this was the
06:05cutting edge.
06:06I thought Larry and CJ had found the cutting edge movement.
06:12But no, no, no, Che and Lou had something different, had a different flavor.
06:18I don't know if it was the beach ministries, which was kind of fun, you know, if it was
06:29the fact that they wore more shorts and T-shirts.
06:33Like, it was a little more relaxed.
06:35You know, it had that hippie vibe of the 70s.
06:39And I liked it, you know, as you can see, I am in the tropics right now.
06:45I love the beach.
06:48So this was a little bit more my cup of tea.
06:53And I think I might have mentioned when I was back at PDI in the 1980s, I noticed that
07:01a lot of my bosses, pastors, you know, people I worked with, they were white, John.
07:11I have nothing against white people.
07:13I love all people of all color.
07:16But I kind of noticed that I was probably the only person of color in my office.
07:24So when I, again, moved to Los Angeles, like, okay, now we're talking.
07:30Now there's diversity.
07:32Now there's, you know, I see a few more Filipinos at the church.
07:38So I honestly thought that this was a really good move for us, John.
07:44Plus, you know, you got Lou Angle up there contending for revival and he has his raspy voice.
07:53And it's like, revival, revival.
07:55And there was just something almost hypnotic about the way he would repeat that word.
08:01You know, we got to contend.
08:03So I did a 40-day fast with him twice.
08:09Now I'm not talking just water, okay?
08:12I am not that, you know, I think he did, one or two people at my church, I think, actually
08:18did 40-day water fast, only water.
08:24I cheated a little bit.
08:25I did a Daniel fast, you know, which allows you food.
08:32But anyway, my point is, I just bought everything.
08:38I bought into the whole thing.
08:42Now by 1994, we were a little discouraged.
08:47It's like, where is it?
08:49Where is this mighty revival?
08:52Where's all the people?
08:53Because, again, we were a small church.
08:58I'm not very good with numbers.
09:00I'm just going to say, anywhere from 50 to 100, okay?
09:05That was the size of Abundant Life Community Church.
09:09And we pretty much knew everyone.
09:11You know, that's the advantage of a small church.
09:13I could still, you know, like I told you before, knock on Chehan's office door and say,
09:20hey, you got a minute to talk?
09:21You know, like we were, we were, I guess, like a regular small church culture.
09:29But that rapidly changed.
09:32And at that time, I honestly thought it was a good thing, John.
09:37We grew in two years from 1994 to 1996 to hundreds, maybe even a thousand.
09:48I don't know, maybe that's a little too much, but we definitely grew.
09:54And in my mind, John, I thought, this is revival.
09:58And I'm going to talk about what made the change from the time I landed in California from 1991
10:07to 1994 to all of a sudden, in two years, witnesses rapid church growth.
10:16So let's lay some background to all of this.
10:19And as I mentioned, I was studying the revivals.
10:22I wanted to know, was God in the revival or was this more man-made than God made?
10:27And one of the ones that I began to study, because it was so connected to what we came out
10:32of,
10:32was the Assemblies of God.
10:34And you can find that research on the website.
10:37I've got a couple of podcasts about it.
10:38But basically, if you hear the stories today, the stories tell you that there was this great
10:44revival that broke out, and they formed the Assemblies, and God was there, and God blessed
10:48them.
10:49But if you study the history, it's a little bit different than that.
10:53Maybe that's the case.
10:54I'm not going to say God wasn't there.
10:56But it started out as a Church of God in Christ meeting, and there were several ministers who
11:03decided, we do not want black ministers.
11:06You mentioned people of color.
11:07We do not want black ministers to be in leadership positions in this.
11:11So let's separate the races.
11:13That was part of it.
11:15I'm not going to say it's all of it, but that was a huge part of it.
11:18And whenever you put all those pieces together, all of those moving parts, what you end up
11:23with is, this was a man-made thing, a very man-made thing, a movement likely would have
11:29come out of it anyway, whether God was there or not, because all of these moving parts are
11:33human-made.
11:34But in the historical accounts, it's much bigger than it was.
11:38I'll say it like that, and I can say that with confidence.
11:42Historically, you remember it from the legend that was created.
11:45Well, picture all of the different legends that had been created leading to your 1994.
11:51You had the Latter Rain Movement, the post-World War II healing revival.
11:55This was restoring the apostles and prophets, many of the key components for what would develop
12:01in 1994.
12:03Branham had died, and with his death, we had people who were trying to figure out, well,
12:09how do we move forward when our foremost leader has died, the man who many claimed was God in
12:15the flesh.
12:15And so movements like the shepherding movement and restorationism, they came out of this,
12:21and they were promoting things like covenant relationships and spiritual authority, spiritual
12:28coverings, submission, this kind of thing.
12:30And then off to the side, you had more in your neck of the woods.
12:35You had the vineyard, the third wave, all of the normalization of the signs, wonders,
12:39and healing prophetic attributes, none of which was really original or new.
12:46Most of those were recreations of what came in the healing revival with a much more musical
12:52twist.
12:52I'll say it like that.
12:53And then the Kansas City Prophets had injected the end-time prophecy narratives that mostly
13:00came from Branham, but some of them were their own, had injected that into the vineyard.
13:04And Wagner's church growth was starting to catch on.
13:09People were seeing these, wow, we can have a big megachurch, and all these people in the
13:13city will come.
13:14So you had all of these different streams of mechanic.
13:18We're talking cogs on the wheel spinning, right?
13:20All of these cogs are spinning to develop into the background for what you had in 1994.
13:26Yeah, no, that's very helpful, John.
13:30You know, as a history teacher, I have really come to realize that history really does repeat
13:37itself.
13:38And when you do not know your history, you think that what you're going through is unique.
13:44You think this has never happened before.
13:47So again, in my 20s, what did I know?
13:52All I knew was that they were describing revival as this, you know, this is a goal.
14:01This is like, we need to die for the revival, you know, revival at all costs.
14:06And one of the things that I actually want to arrive at in this podcast is, is it really
14:14worth it, John?
14:16Is it worth all the sacrifices, all the time, effort, and let's not forget the money, lots
14:26and lots of money that gets injected into the revival movement?
14:33And does it really do what it's supposed to do, which is to save souls and not just save
14:38them, right?
14:39Disciple them, raise them up into Christian maturity is what Paul often told us, you know,
14:46that you can't just remain babies.
14:49You got to grow up in the faith.
14:51And that for me was what I started scratching my head and wondering, like, is this really what
15:00God wants, just like what you kind of went through, you know, is this what revival is
15:07supposed to look like?
15:08But anyway, I'm jumping ahead of myself.
15:11Let's go back to 1994.
15:17So what I remember about 1994 was there was an earthquake in, I believe it was January 1994.
15:26There was this huge Northridge earthquake and we were not that far from it.
15:34I mean, the whole earth, you know, it felt was shaking.
15:39And of course, you know, these prophets, they like to use these things.
15:45Like, this is it.
15:47I mean, people were still trying to, like, get new refrigerators and fix their broken glass
15:55because of the earthquake.
15:56I mean, it was a massive earthquake.
15:58And meanwhile, from the pulpit, what we're hearing is that's a sign.
16:03Our prayers are being heard.
16:06God is shaking the earth, you know.
16:09And this year, we are going to see, you know, God move in a way he has never moved before.
16:20And so I'm like, all right, bring it on, you know.
16:24So more 40-day fast, more 24-7 prayer.
16:30And then it happened, John.
16:34Lou Engel and Cheyenne heard about this thing happening in Toronto called the Toronto Blessing.
16:43And they started going there.
16:45They started, I don't know how many times they went, but they were gone from the pulpit for a while.
16:52And then all of a sudden, they came back and they said, we're all going to line up.
17:00We're all going to lay hands on you.
17:03And, you know, this is it.
17:06And when you hype people, you know, to an almost fever pitch, right, like, all right, we're ready.
17:17You speak about this in some of your podcasts, John.
17:21There is something biological that happens, you know, that anticipation.
17:27You know, it's like going to a party.
17:31Like, oh, I can't wait for the party.
17:33And then you go to the party and everybody's dancing.
17:35And you're like, okay, I'm just going to jump in there, party hardy.
17:39And, you know, and you think like, yeah, this is it.
17:43This is the best thing, you know.
17:45Well, no, you just, they just put music on and you have a bunch of people dance, you know, jumping
17:51up and down.
17:52And so your body will just gravitate to doing what you see everyone else doing.
18:00So because of the Toronto blessing brought in to our church, Abundant Life Community Church,
18:08we were still part of PDI at that time.
18:12There was a split that happened because half of us got it and half of us didn't.
18:26And when I say got it, okay, I'm going to name some of the physical manifestations that came out besides
18:33the usual falling and crying, you know.
18:40There was a lot of uncontrollable laughter, a laughing revival, it was called.
18:47Definitely a lot of shaking going on, okay.
18:50We used to call it shaking and baking.
18:53Fresh out of the oven.
18:57Animal noises.
18:58Oh, we were known for our animal noises.
19:02The barking dogs, the roaring lions.
19:06And as far as the preaching from the pulpit, now we're not hearing so much about Jesus who died on
19:17the cross,
19:18his sacrificial death for our sins and the resurrection.
19:22Now we're hearing all about the Father's, Father heart of love.
19:29The Father.
19:30Now the emphasis now was on the Father.
19:34You know, it's almost as if, okay, Jesus, then Holy Spirit came during Pentecost.
19:41And then, but where was the Father?
19:44Like, Father was missing for all these thousands of years.
19:48And then all of a sudden, in 1994, Father woke up and said, oh, I got to care for my
19:57kids.
19:57I mean, I'm being facetious, of course.
20:00But it almost felt that way.
20:04That, and I myself, I was born Catholic.
20:07I knew my rosary.
20:10You know, we had worship of the saints and Mary and, you know, lots of teachings on Jesus.
20:16Not so much on Holy Spirit.
20:18But I had not heard of the Father and the heart of love of Daddy.
20:25Now people were calling him Daddy, which at the very beginning, I was like, is that okay?
20:32Is that okay to, I had such a reverence, you know, for the spiritual things.
20:38So it was kind of weird for me to hear these Californians, you know, these hippies call the Father, Daddy.
20:48Oh, yeah, Daddy God, you know, Daddy this.
20:51And I was like, this is a different culture for sure.
20:56But you know what?
20:58I'm in my 20s.
20:59This is a new thing.
21:01So I just dove into the pool.
21:05I dove into the deep end of the pool.
21:08I started shaking.
21:11I started falling.
21:13I mean, I don't know about the, I don't think I ever barked like a dog.
21:18But some sounds were coming out of my mouth.
21:22And I thought, okay, you know, this is kind of exciting.
21:27Kind of like that party where, you know, you're in with the in crowd now.
21:33And remember, I am still the sister-in-law of Cheyhan.
21:36So I'm being invited to even some of those inner circle meetings where even wilder things are happening.
21:45We had John and Carol Arnott come to California to spread, to even spread further, right?
21:55Because I guess the hands of Cheyhan and Lou Engel were not enough.
21:58So we had more people come.
22:01We started having Jim Gall come.
22:04We started having Mike Bickle, you know, like all these people in the, yeah, mid-90s started coming.
22:15So from 1994 to 1996, our little church, and by now, remember, there was a split.
22:23And Larry and CJ, they were not happy.
22:26They're not into this falling down and weird charismanian stuff, right?
22:36And like we already discussed, I mean, CJ himself was really moving more towards Calvinism.
22:42So he was very upset.
22:44And as close as they were, that friendship got strained.
22:53And Chey and Lou sadly had to walk away from that friendship.
23:00Chey and Lou for a very short while followed John Wimber and the vineyard.
23:07Because, you know, John, John is, like you said, into the supernatural, into healing evangelism.
23:14And, you know, we all read his books, you know, power, power evangelism.
23:19It was called power healing.
23:21So now we were like, now we've got the power, right?
23:25Because we feel it in our bones.
23:27You know, this must be of God.
23:29There's power running through our veins.
23:34And guess what?
23:36John Wimber said, oh, that's too much.
23:39Even John Wimber said, no, no, no, no, no.
23:43You cannot be part of the vineyard if you go down this route.
23:48I mean, John and Carol had to also leave.
23:51They were a vineyard.
23:53And they're like, no, no, no, no.
23:54That's a different brand of the charismatic world.
24:01And you're too out there now.
24:04So what did Chey and Lou do?
24:08They started their own church, Harvest Rock Church.
24:12And it started in 1994 officially.
24:15And when they opened their doors, I am telling you, there were lines around the block.
24:21And we were quickly, you know, remember, we were the ones contending, you know, for revival.
24:29So now we were promoted.
24:31John, I was promoted.
24:34I was now a prophetic intercessor, prayer leader.
24:41We were placed in front of the stages.
24:44Remember, because Chey and Lou only have two hands each.
24:48They can't lay hands on everyone.
24:51And if this, if the power is transferred through the laying on of hands, then you got to touch them,
24:56right?
24:57You got to make sure every single person who visits.
25:00And we're talking hundreds of people.
25:03And we start having protracted meetings every night.
25:07That's a lot of people, John.
25:09So guess what?
25:10I was there almost every night laying hands on people.
25:16And guess what?
25:17We were seeing them fall.
25:19Like, whoa.
25:20Like, that was kind of a head experience for me as a 20-year-old.
25:23Like, whoa, what do I have in my hands?
25:25Like, people are falling down, you know.
25:28I'm not pushing them, okay?
25:30There is something going on.
25:34And so what I find interesting now as I look back, because they needed more hands and because they needed
25:44more mouths to prophesy, because now we were known as a prophesying church.
25:50This was when they were now partnering with C. Peter Wagner.
25:56And remember, he is all about raising up of the last day saints, the prophets and the apostles.
26:07I don't know why they always call, they always just call out the apostles and prophets.
26:12Like, whatever happened to the teachers and the evangelists and the pastors?
26:16But I guess they're not as important in this last day's movement.
26:20So all of a sudden, we were like little prophets, John.
26:25We all had, we were lined up in the front of the stage.
26:30You know, we're facing the audience.
26:31They're all forming lines in front of us.
26:34The first time this happened to me, John, my heart was beating so hard.
26:40Like, what am I going to say to these people?
26:44Like, it was just insane now that I look back.
26:49And I think I did my best to encourage everyone.
26:54I just said, God bless you, sister.
26:58Oh, my back.
26:59Like, okay, let me pray for your back.
27:01I don't know if they got healed.
27:03You know, we just, we didn't really get that much training, I'm going to say.
27:09And am I going to say it was all a circus act?
27:14I don't think I can say that, John.
27:17I think God did show up because he does love us.
27:24He is our father.
27:25He is our father.
27:27He does love us.
27:28But it very, very quickly went to the extreme, to all the craziness, to all the insanity.
27:37And so, yeah.
27:40So I think that was really when Che and Lou cut the apron strings and were no longer part of
27:49PDI.
27:50And then they were with Wimber and then that got cut off.
27:54Now, remember, both of these movements, the PDI movement and the vineyard movement, those were not cut off because Che
28:09and Lou wanted it cut off.
28:12They were the ones removed.
28:14And I think, you know, I don't know, I would like to hear your opinion, John.
28:20I think there was hurt, probably, and some rejection that both Che and Lou must have felt because these were
28:32their friends.
28:34And maybe, maybe they had something to prove.
28:39Maybe they wanted to say to these guys who mentored them and kind of fathered them in the faith, like,
28:45well, we'll show you.
28:46Like, you're telling us that we're weird and, you know, we have barking dogs and we've got, like, people who
28:54are laughing hysterically, like, you know what?
28:57This is of God and we're going to show you and, you know, just watch.
29:01And honestly, 1994 to 2026, that's, like, 30 years of NAR because that really was the beginning of NAR when
29:16they, when they, this is how I put it.
29:19But I feel like the NAR movement that started in Southern California, I'm sure there's, there are Genesis stories of
29:31NAR everywhere else that, that the spirit supposedly sparked.
29:36But I'm talking about what I experienced in Southern California.
29:42So this is what I was told, that we were the ones who started it.
29:49And it was three people in particular.
29:52It was C. Peter Wagner, who came from Fuller.
29:58And he was like the intellectual, he provided the intellectual theological framework of the movement.
30:07Then you've got Che, and Che is a master network builder.
30:14That is his gift.
30:17And, you know, the fact that he was able to not just grow Harvest Rock Church from, you know, from
30:26just a little group to, like, hundreds of people.
30:29But, no, his claim to fame is HIM, Harvest International Ministry, which, if you look in their website, I think
30:38they said 25,000 churches worldwide.
30:42I think it's grown.
30:45And the website says 62 nations, I think.
30:50But now it's 70 nations.
30:52Like, I don't know.
30:53The numbers keep changing.
30:57But I'm going to give him that.
30:59Che On managed to grow this movement into this global phenomenon.
31:08Whether you want to call it a man-made one, I'm sure you would.
31:14I tend to say, no, let's give him a little bit of, you know, there was a little bit of
31:21God in there, I think.
31:23At least in the very, very beginning, you know.
31:28But I don't think it is now, for sure.
31:31It definitely turned cultic very, very quickly.
31:34And the third one, of course, Lou Engel.
31:37And I call him, I don't know, the gatherer, the stadium revival gatherer who's able to create these rallies, create
31:50this atmosphere of anticipation.
31:53Like, that is his gift.
31:56You put him up on stage, people just start falling.
31:59Like, he just, like, he goes up there.
32:02And really, of the three of them, he's the one, I think, that maybe is the most respected, most beloved.
32:12You know, I told you it took me a while.
32:15It took me a while to really be able to see him with clearer eyes.
32:21Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started?
32:24Or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new
32:32apostolic reformation?
32:34You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
32:41On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
32:49John McKinnon, and others,
32:51with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
32:55You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
33:01If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
33:08top.
33:08And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
33:14watching.
33:15On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
33:20You mentioned that history repeats itself, and that's something that I've really thought through many times in many ways,
33:28because no matter how far you go back in history and you're talking about the New Apostolic Reformation or latter
33:34reign,
33:34any of these movements, you're going to go back and you're going to find something similar.
33:38And people have asked me, do you think God was in it?
33:41And my answer is a little bit different than people expect.
33:45My answer isn't a yes or no.
33:47It's more like this.
33:50The movement thinks that God is in it because of the movement, because of what they're doing.
33:55And I say God was there in spite of what they were doing.
33:59It's more like that.
34:01Because truly, if you go back and tell you, so you mentioned the earthquake.
34:05Go back to 1906, the Azusa Street Revival.
34:09I've got a couple of podcasts on this if you want to watch it.
34:12The earthquake hit, and all revival broke loose.
34:15And I used revival instead of that other word that I should have used.
34:19The earthquake came, all revival broke loose.
34:24And here's where it gets interesting.
34:26The Bible does talk about laying on of hands, and it does talk about it in an apostolic way.
34:33So I think that's why they have to have these apostles.
34:36You ask, why are they choosing apostles and prophets and leaving the others out?
34:39Well, if you think about how the movement spread, and if you understand those passages about laying on of hands
34:47and the culture, the culture was different than ours.
34:50Back then, there are examples of this.
34:53I think even in the Old Testament when Joshua was commissioned, laying on of hands was a significant act of
35:00commissioning for service.
35:02So when the apostles laid hands on you, they were commissioning you to go spread the gospel.
35:06It wasn't that the power came because of the laying on of hands, and I can't say in spite of,
35:13because that's not right, but it's about the same thing.
35:16It wasn't linked together in the way that they're linking it.
35:19It happened because it happened, not because they laid on hands.
35:23But there's a problem that exists all throughout history, starting back with Adam and Eve and coming forward, where people
35:31can't describe God or heavenly things without describing it in a human way.
35:37For us to be able to understand it, we need to humanize it.
35:40And I hate to say it like this, but this is the actual truth.
35:44The only human thing that people can think about in the same way of spreading like this, in a way
35:52that is not the Holy Spirit in control of spreading it, is the laying on of hands.
35:56They think it is the physical act of laying on hands, because if you're sick, if you have a virus
36:01and you come in contact with somebody, you can spread the virus.
36:04So it's a very human thing, right?
36:07They can't allow the thought that there's a being so powerful, and using the Holy Spirit can fill the hearts
36:16without their actions.
36:17So they have to put a human-associated act to it.
36:21And it's really wrong when you think about it.
36:23Fast forward, you've got the same kind of thing happened at the latter rain revival, when it broke out.
36:31They brought back the laying on of hands.
36:32They tried to spread it in a human way.
36:34And what happened in both cases is that when you do this, you have humans involved.
36:41Humans have egos involved.
36:44And one apostle says, well, I laid my hands on, and I have this doctrine, and he doesn't have this
36:49doctrine.
36:50And so you create a division.
36:51So they split.
36:52And the groups split.
36:53They grow.
36:54They split.
36:55They grow.
36:55And that is an organic human growth.
36:58That's how, you know, even from the viruses, it will grow and split into, morph into different viruses, right?
37:07The virus itself changes.
37:08They have to look at it in a human way.
37:12To the extent, I was looking at the history of comparisons between, you mentioned the Toronto Blessing, the pigs, and
37:18all of this.
37:18In one of the podcasts I did, I went through some of that history, but there is documented history of
37:24people doing the same thing, the same type of thing, in the Azusa Street Revival, and worse.
37:30There were women who were leaving their husbands because this was it.
37:34This was the end.
37:35We're in the End Times Revival.
37:37My husband's not coming, so he's going to hell.
37:39Let's go out on the street and grab another husband and bring him in.
37:42And they were doing that.
37:43They were bringing new husbands in.
37:45And it was so weird what they were doing.
37:49But, again, if you were there, you saw the weirdness.
37:52In today's world, we don't hear the weirdness.
37:55All we hear is the legend.
37:56And the legend grows and continues to grow.
37:59Fast forward to the New Apostolic Reformation.
38:01Same exact thing.
38:02I hear all of this stuff about how the Toronto Blessing was so great and God was there because these
38:08men did these things.
38:10And I'm still the same opinion.
38:12God was there in spite of the men doing those things.
38:16Yeah, no, that's a great way of putting it.
38:18I tend to feel that way, too, John.
38:22Because, again, as much as I have to admit I was duped,
38:30I was definitely deceived into believing a lot of these doctrinal practices and theological teachings.
38:41I cannot discount certain things that happened to me personally, like little miracles that I saw for myself.
38:52And, you know, I'm just going to say, you know, God is a mysterious God.
38:59And we can't, like, scientifically analyze what exactly was of God and what wasn't.
39:06And I am going to agree with you, John.
39:10I'm going to say, like, this much was God and then maybe, I mean, sorry, this much was man and
39:16this much was God.
39:17You know, the percentage maybe, you know, I can agree with you.
39:22But the exact numbers, you know, percentage-wise, who knows?
39:29Who knows?
39:29It's a sprinkling.
39:33I'm going to say this.
39:35I sometimes get people on my social media who tell me, what are you doing, Pia?
39:43You know, these are some of my friends from back in the day.
39:47Why are you exposing our beloved Pastor Cheon?
39:55You know, why do you have to be an accuser of the brethren?
39:58You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
40:01And then they like to say, can't you just take the chicken, take the drumstick, the chicken, and spit out
40:10the bones?
40:12I hear, you know, versions of that all the time, you know, just throw out the bones.
40:19And this is my comeback now because I heard it from, you know, someone and I've adopted it.
40:28It's not really like that.
40:30It's like that Kool-Aid I always talk about.
40:34Maybe that Kool-Aid at one point was just sugared water.
40:39That's all that Kool-Aid is.
40:41But, you know, and that's really not the best for your health.
40:45But whatever, you're not going to die.
40:47But then somebody puts a little poison on it, even just one drop of something very toxic.
40:54And now the entire Kool-Aid pitcher is poisonous.
41:01And even just a little gulp of that could kill you, you know?
41:06And so that's how I see it.
41:08It's like, how are you going to distinguish what is good sugar water and what is poison?
41:16So anyway, and that's why I do what I do.
41:19That's just a little side note.
41:22I wanted to get into this.
41:24You were talking about how things really got spread, right?
41:29Laying on of hands, people talking, people just like, oh, my God, you got to go down.
41:35You know, did you see the lines, you know, going around the block?
41:40Something's happening in that church over there.
41:43You know, that's how things get spread.
41:46But something happened, John, in the 1990s that has never happened.
41:52This one is true.
41:54This has never happened before.
41:56It's the advent of the Internet.
42:02While this revival thing was exploding from Toronto, from Brownsville, from California,
42:15you've got this real technological explosion happening.
42:22All of a sudden, everybody has an email.
42:25I remember the very first emails I was getting was about the revival, you know?
42:33And at first, it was all the positive stuff.
42:37Later on, I started becoming part of an email group where we talked about the negative stuff, you know?
42:43But, yeah, people who stopped drinking the Kool-Aid.
42:47And I think that was the start for me, you know, of my deconstruction.
42:51My healing was, oh, I'm not the only one who thought that it was all crazy.
42:55But anyway, in the very, very beginning, the ideas about Seven Mountain Mandate, which had not yet been fully developed,
43:06right, back in the 90s.
43:08But it was starting to, you know, and as you said, as you very well lay out through your podcast
43:17series, none of these ideas were unique to Wagner or Che or Lou or Jim Gall or Mike Bickle or,
43:27you know, like you said.
43:29It came from other movements, but none of us knew that.
43:32We didn't know that William Branham was the original, you know, kind of crazy narcissistic leader.
43:41We didn't know that what was being, when they were laying hands, we didn't know what was being spread wasn't
43:50just like good things, you know?
43:53There was a lot of very not good things at all that were being passed on.
43:59So back to the mid-90s, you know, the email system started becoming more popular, you know, AOL.
44:10And then pretty soon you've got modern Christian TV.
44:15It's like almost every megachurch now had their own television production company.
44:22And then you've got MySpace.
44:24Before there was Facebook, there was MySpace.
44:28MySpace and then Facebook and then Twitter.
44:32And I honestly feel that this advent of new ways to disseminate information rapidly and widely really helped this movement.
44:46You know, call it coincidence.
44:49Call it.
44:50But I'm sure they're going to say, it's God.
44:53God helped us.
44:55But it worked, right?
44:57It worked.
44:58Because now you've got people flying, you know?
45:01Like back in the day, people rode horses to go to the, to watch Charles Finney.
45:09Like, oh, Charles Finney's in the next town.
45:11And they rode their horses to go watch him, you know?
45:14And maybe William Branham's time, you know, people would drive for hours.
45:18Well, now you're, you're, you have people flying, myself included.
45:24I told you, I told you, I used to fly from California to North Carolina just to be part of
45:33Morningstar ministry.
45:35Those conferences with Rick Joyner.
45:39So, we were all drinking the Kool-Aid.
45:42We were all just like, you know, like I said, going back to that party analogy.
45:47We were all like jumping and like, woo, isn't this great?
45:52This is, no one has ever experienced this thrill that we are now experiencing.
46:00And yeah, sure, some of us are barking like dogs.
46:04But don't pay no attention to those people, you know?
46:08We, you know, we, we are more, we're more normal.
46:12So, so just, just check us out, you know, try it out.
46:18And more and more and more people just started coming.
46:23Now, this I'm going to say, I do believe God saved me from a lot of that.
46:30Because in 1996, I got kicked out.
46:34I got kicked out.
46:36Not because I wanted to leave, but I was basically told by Jay, you went through a divorce.
46:44Can't have a year anymore.
46:46And you know what?
46:47It broke my heart, John.
46:49It broke my heart.
46:51I mean, not because, oh my gosh, I, I'm not going to be part of the party anymore.
46:57Like I was past that.
46:59I was past that.
47:00But they were my friends.
47:02They're still my friends.
47:05And yeah, and like I said, I went to a more word-based church, a lot more subdued, I'm going
47:13to say.
47:14Like all of a sudden, you go from this hyper, like, you know, it's a thrill.
47:20Every night, there's always something going on.
47:23Someone's getting healed.
47:24You know, someone's, someone's going to start rolling down the, rolling down the aisle.
47:30Like it was a very entertaining circus.
47:34And now I go to an ordinary church where people still just sat still and listened to the pastor.
47:44And he's preaching straight from the Bible.
47:48It was an adjustment.
47:49I have to admit, it was an adjustment.
47:52But it was a very good adjustment for me.
47:56Because I, and I think that, that was of, of God.
48:00That was God's grace that I got spared from having to be a part of, you know, continued craziness.
48:08So I, I want to go back to that question as we're wrapping up, you know, was it all worth
48:16it?
48:16There was a, an interview, not too long ago, Bill, Bill Johnson was being asked, you know, given all the
48:27scandal happening at Bethel with Sean Balls, like, do you think it was worth it?
48:34And in a nutshell, I'm paraphrasing, but Bill Johnson said, yeah, you know, there's been some, you know, we're, we're
48:41very sorry for all the victims that got hurt.
48:43But at the end, yeah, it was worth it.
48:47You know, hundreds of people got saved, you know, lives were transformed, blah, blah, blah.
48:52The gospel was preached.
48:55And I, I wanted us to explore that a little bit before we close, you know, what, was it worth
49:02it?
49:02What do you, I want to hear from you, John?
49:05Was it worth it?
49:07I don't know if you remember this, but in the 1980s, there was a show called MacGyver.
49:11This is my favorite show of all time.
49:14There was this guy who could do anything with anything.
49:18He was a mechanic.
49:19He knew pneumatics, hydraulics, all of these different things.
49:23And he could walk into a situation that was just so insanely bad.
49:28And he'd have a smile on his face because he knew he could get out of it.
49:31He knew he could fix it.
49:32And I look at this movement much like this.
49:36Was it good?
49:36Was it bad?
49:38There are so many problems with it.
49:40There are so many things that make it look disastrous.
49:44You've got, Stephen Montgomery calls it the converging apostasy.
49:47You've got the occult that came into this movement.
49:50You've got Gnosticism came into the movement.
49:52You've got all of these different streams of sometimes purely evil, some things that are
49:58just simply Antichrist coming into this movement that developed the bedrock from which all of
50:04it would grow.
50:05And then what grew was truly horrific.
50:09It was taking lives.
50:11There were people who were cutting off their families.
50:13If you weren't in one particular sect, you cut your family off who wasn't in that sect.
50:18And that's still happening today.
50:19Even some of the more quote-unquote respectable churches in NAR, their families are just broken
50:27because of this.
50:28And look at all of the harm that it has caused.
50:31This is a situation, if MacGyver came into this, he'd be like, I don't know if I can keep this
50:37smile
50:37on my face.
50:38You know what I mean?
50:39But it was bad.
50:41It was truly, truly bad.
50:43And can any good come from it?
50:47I have to think, picture God who's in control of all things, looking down at this thing that is
50:53just so bad that humans have made this big mess.
50:57And hopefully, God who's in control of everything can say, okay, sometime in the future, we have
51:03this documented now.
51:05People like you and I are making a clear record of everything that has happened.
51:09Somebody in the future can look back and say, I don't want to do that ever again.
51:15This was bad.
51:16Let's don't do this.
51:18I don't look at it like something that can be turned into the legends that
51:25the latter rain movement, Pentecostalism, all of these things have turned into a God's
51:30generals type of story.
51:32It's more of a fairytale type of story of something that's horrific.
51:36New Apostolic Reformation is different because it is so devastating and has caused so much
51:41problem.
51:42I don't know that future generations can look back on this and say, that's a good legend.
51:48Let's keep this story.
51:49I think it's gotten to the level that it's so bad that people would just walk away and
51:54forget it.
51:55At least I hope that's what happens because this is truly bad.
51:59I 100% agree.
52:03As a historian, one of the things that we like to do as a history teacher, we've taught
52:09this, always look at the cause and effect.
52:12We've talked a lot about the cause.
52:15Why did NAR even come into place in the first place?
52:20But I want to talk about the effects.
52:23So while I'm going to concede there were some positive effects, for the most part, I think
52:30there were far more negative.
52:32And I'm just going to read my little list.
52:36Not comprehensive, but I wrote all of these down for future reference.
52:44If people, you know, in the future watch this podcast, they're going to say, well, I wish
52:50somebody would just give me a list.
52:52What were some of the negative effects?
52:54Well, here's a small list.
52:55Almost no financial integrity, not enough accountability for the leaders, too much concentrated authority
53:05in a singular figure.
53:08And of course, never question the leaders because that would be rebellious.
53:14Networks that relied more on personal relationships and nepotism than formal governance.
53:21And we didn't really get into this much.
53:22I would like to have a podcast at some point talking about the governance, you know, like
53:30how exactly do leaders get picked within NAR?
53:34That is a podcast in itself.
53:37Celebrity culture, ministry branding.
53:41So again, talking about the advent of modern means of communication.
53:50And nowadays, of course, it's all social media.
53:54You got to have a branding.
53:56Loyalty and protection of the personalities and institutions rather than the victims.
54:03Large conferences, stadium revivals, rallies, replacing simple one-on-one discipleship.
54:14Chasing of the next move of God instead of just the pure word of God.
54:21And here's the last one, which for me, I feel very sad for these young people who really chase these
54:32kinds of revival events.
54:35And at the end, they realize nothing has really changed in my life.
54:40I gave my entire allowance for the whole month because the preacher said that I would get a hundredfold reward.
54:52And I am even more broke now.
54:55And I quit my job at Trader Joe's to be an usher.
55:02And now I don't have a job, you know, like actually my life is worse.
55:09So big disappointments whenever the extraordinary experiences promised to them were not fulfilled.
55:19So, yep, to the point of Bill Johnson saying, well, you know, at the end, it's all worth it.
55:28I'm going to have to say a big fat no to that one because, you know, I think you're saying,
55:40well, someday they're going to know that this was not of God.
55:44I hope that some days now, I would rather it be sooner than later that people just wake up to
55:52the reality that, you know, God doesn't build circus acts.
56:00You know, he doesn't need that.
56:02He doesn't need our extra help to entertain people, you know, because he's God and he's powerful.
56:12And we really don't need to help him become more powerful.
56:18Yeah, I mean, if you look at the number of lives that have been ruined because of this, it really
56:23makes it hard for me to believe that God supports it.
56:28I'll put it like that.
56:29There are many ways to look at it.
56:31You can say God was there in the movement.
56:33You can say people were there.
56:35And where two or three are gathered in my name, God will be in the midst.
56:38But that is the same case if you were to accidentally drive your family into the middle of a satanic
56:45ritual.
56:46Yes, God is there with you.
56:48But do you really want to be in that ritual?
56:51I mean, I hate to hate to be blunt like this, because when you look at the occult, you look
56:57at all of these other different things that are mixed in with this movement.
57:02And yet, at the same time, it's empowering people and putting them in positions of authority over other humans that
57:08they should never have had in the first place.
57:10So I'm glad you're exposing it.
57:12I'm sorry that your life has taken the twists and turns that it has.
57:17Mine, too.
57:18There are many different life decisions I would never have made had I not been in this movement.
57:26And, yes, it does ruin lives.
57:28Sometimes I get angry about it.
57:29I could be a bitter person for all of the things that have been taken away from me.
57:33But I choose to smile.
57:35And I choose to laugh.
57:38And that's why I make all the jokes I do in the podcast, because you could be down about it
57:43or you could just move on.
57:45And I've chosen to move on.
57:46I hope everybody else who is in this movement can one day say, I, too, am going to move on.
57:52So thank you so much for doing this.
57:54Thank you, John.
57:56Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
58:00You can find us at william-branham.org.
58:02For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to
58:08the NAR.
58:09Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
58:29Thank you, John.
58:31Thank you, John.
58:31Thank you, John.
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