- 5 days ago
John and Jed discuss what happens after someone recognizes the warning signs of a destructive religious group and decides to leave. They examine the loss of community, trust, identity, relationships, and spiritual certainty that can follow, along with the danger of quickly entering another controlling group to replace what was lost.
Drawing from their personal experiences, they explain why recovery requires patience, emotional support, honest self-examination, and relationships that do not depend on total agreement. They also explore deprogramming, marriage strain, religious doubt, unhealthy guilt, rebuilding personal identity, and how friends and ministers can support people without immediately trying to correct them.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
05:03 Why Sound Doctrine Alone May Not Be Enough
08:04 Why Truth Does Not Automatically Undo Deception
13:52 Identity and Community Before Reconstruction
18:49 Letting the Whole Belief System Come Down
25:51 Rebuilding After the Collapse
29:43 The Isolation and Cost of Deprogramming
33:10 Why Healing Is Not Instant
38:22 Marriage, Identity, and Taking Off the Mask
42:54 Relationships After Leaving
47:45 The Pendulum Swing After Leaving
50:16 Returning to the Baggage You Left Behind
56:01 Learning to Disagree After High-Control Religion
59:16 Patience and Empathy for People Leaving
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
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– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Drawing from their personal experiences, they explain why recovery requires patience, emotional support, honest self-examination, and relationships that do not depend on total agreement. They also explore deprogramming, marriage strain, religious doubt, unhealthy guilt, rebuilding personal identity, and how friends and ministers can support people without immediately trying to correct them.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
05:03 Why Sound Doctrine Alone May Not Be Enough
08:04 Why Truth Does Not Automatically Undo Deception
13:52 Identity and Community Before Reconstruction
18:49 Letting the Whole Belief System Come Down
25:51 Rebuilding After the Collapse
29:43 The Isolation and Cost of Deprogramming
33:10 Why Healing Is Not Instant
38:22 Marriage, Identity, and Taking Off the Mask
42:54 Relationships After Leaving
47:45 The Pendulum Swing After Leaving
50:16 Returning to the Baggage You Left Behind
56:01 Learning to Disagree After High-Control Religion
59:16 Patience and Empathy for People Leaving
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of
00:00:46a false prophet and former member of the International House of Prayer.
00:00:50Jed, it's good to be back and to start talking about, now that you recognize the signs that
00:00:56you're in one of these destructive groups, what happens next whenever you try to get
00:01:00out?
00:01:01There's so many complications to that, and one of the things that I was thinking as
00:01:07we were talking about this topic last week, or last time that we spoke, we were talking
00:01:13about the organizations, and there's this motivation internally that the organization itself needs
00:01:20to protect the organization.
00:01:21It's never, we need to protect the people, it's never about the people.
00:01:25In other words, the movement we have created is God's gift to mankind, and forget mankind,
00:01:32we're going to take this gift.
00:01:34And it's just so backwards.
00:01:35But once you get caught up in that mentality, what do you do?
00:01:39Because you've also been trained that the organization, the prophetic history, all of
00:01:44this is the center, the epicenter of your life, the epicenter of everything that happens
00:01:49in your life, so what do you do?
00:01:51And that's kind of what we need to focus on today, because I kid you not, I've gotten
00:01:56probably a hundred emails this year about people saying, I realize that this is wrong, but what
00:02:02do I do?
00:02:02All my family's in it, all my friends in it.
00:02:04This is really a hard thing to go through.
00:02:06Yeah, and I'm sure that you've seen this too, but a lot of times when people are escaping
00:02:13from a cult, they will find themselves jumping into a different type of cult, and I've seen
00:02:22that so many different times, especially so with many of the people at IHOP that I grew
00:02:29up with, and especially younger individuals who have grown up in the culture, which I think
00:02:35is, we'll get into this, but that's a whole different dynamic when you've, you know, you
00:02:41weren't in your 20s when you decided to join something, you just kind of were inundated
00:02:47in it from the beginning or from at least a very young age.
00:02:52It's all you know, and so you might even recognize, oh my goodness, Mike Bickle, the leader of
00:03:00this cult that I was in, or you might not even call it a cult, you might just say the
00:03:05leader
00:03:06of IHOP who I realized, hey, Mike Bickle was doing some terrible things, and so you leave
00:03:10that community, and I think that's really brave and takes a lot of strength, but then if you
00:03:18don't, you're just going to immediately be looking to fill that void of community, of
00:03:25self-identity, of all of these different things.
00:03:28And so too often, like I have a friend who I know who came out to California after escaping
00:03:41from sort of a bad situation that was similar to an IHOP thing, and immediately they got
00:03:49into a sort of new age cult community here in Los Angeles, and it was just half the dozen
00:03:57or the other.
00:03:57And they would even say that now because now they're out of both of them, but it's sort
00:04:01of the out of the pan into the fire situation.
00:04:05So I think that this is something that is really incredibly hard.
00:04:11And when people who are not, like I'm sure many listeners have never been involved in
00:04:16IHOP or something even close to it and are more just interested in the topic, and I think
00:04:24that when you talk to people about cults in general, a lot of times there will be like,
00:04:30man, how could you let yourself get into this?
00:04:33Like it obviously, oh, all of this information comes out about Mike Bickle.
00:04:36Why would you ever believe him?
00:04:38He wasn't even all that charismatic, but I think that this how do you leave question
00:04:43is so important and so difficult that I think that that's part of the reason that people
00:04:50don't leave.
00:04:51It's just there's, what do you do?
00:04:53Where do we go?
00:04:54How do you fill?
00:04:55How do you rebuild your life after this?
00:04:58So it's an incredibly important discussion.
00:05:02It's a big deal.
00:05:03I've had people ask me, after you leave, what do you do to help?
00:05:07People who are escaping.
00:05:10And you've got this one side of the crowd that are saying they just need the gospel.
00:05:15If they hear the gospel, it's going to solve every problem for them.
00:05:18And that's all well and good.
00:05:20I'm not going to say that that's a bad way to look at it.
00:05:22Yes, they probably do need that.
00:05:24But there's so much more that we really have to take a step in.
00:05:29And as humans, there's a human problem that goes along with the spiritual problem or the
00:05:34doctrinal issues.
00:05:37They were in a system that had a lack of accountability.
00:05:40So therefore, they're never going to trust another person who's giving them the gospel.
00:05:44So whenever you take that initiative, they're probably not going to listen to you in the
00:05:49first place.
00:05:49If you've been bruised, I was in that category.
00:05:52And I had people come and they tried to share things with me.
00:05:56I just kind of tuned most of it out.
00:05:59And I started reading the Bible for myself.
00:06:01I wanted to just not trust anyone.
00:06:04And that's one of the things that hits you really hard.
00:06:06You have a very, very strong lack of trust.
00:06:08And that is a problem that is more on the psychological side than the religious side.
00:06:16Because they have protected the platform that they were pushing more than the people, it's
00:06:23created a lot of victims.
00:06:24And yes, when they leave, they go to another cult.
00:06:27It's called re-victimization.
00:06:28It's because they were bruised in a way that some of the bruises became part of their identity.
00:06:39And when you go to another group that is also a destructive group, they may have similarities
00:06:44in the same types of destruction.
00:06:47So they feel compatible with being bruised further.
00:06:50That's a bad way to say it, but that's really what's happening here.
00:06:53And they look for somebody who has that same charisma, that same, you know, the same, they
00:06:59call it the power of God.
00:07:00But literally, it's just a person who is just so full of themselves that they can take a
00:07:03group and run wild with it.
00:07:05They'll go try to find somebody else who's full of themselves.
00:07:08It took me a long time to recognize that I myself was in that mindset.
00:07:14And I look for the opposite now.
00:07:16I want somebody who really doesn't want to be a leader, but is doing it because he wants
00:07:22to help other people become leaders.
00:07:24And for me, that's the true value of leadership is if it's not about you, it's about training
00:07:29other people to help themselves.
00:07:31You're doing exactly what the biblical definition of a minister is.
00:07:36Minister, it uses the same word as deacon.
00:07:38It's a servant, basically, but it's a servant that is serving you the gospel.
00:07:42So I look for people who are of that mindset.
00:07:45And just to reiterate, it is a huge problem that goes beyond just the minister.
00:07:52It's the psychological problems, the identity problems.
00:07:55You have to work through a lot of things when you leave.
00:07:58The statement that you made about the gospel, just the true gospel, should be able to pull
00:08:07people out of this.
00:08:09I think it's interesting because there's been two sort of frame of references that I have
00:08:15had in my life when I'm looking at people coming out of, or even myself, how to get out of
00:08:26these cult communities.
00:08:28And I think that a lot of what is talked about, you either, so the two frame of references are
00:08:33either from a Christian perspective that is looking at the New Apostolic Reformation or
00:08:40the more extreme, so it's Christians looking at cult Christians, basically, and saying,
00:08:46hey, this is just not a true expression of the gospel, and doing it from a sort of doctrinal
00:08:53perspective of just being like, this is not true.
00:08:56The other frame of reference that I've had is that going and being more involved with
00:09:02academia and getting, like, my master's and doing philosophy, like, I've looked at the
00:09:08way that academia talks about cult communities, and in a very similar sense, it's sort of just
00:09:16like, these people are irrational, and you need to get them to build their worldviews from
00:09:28a more rational perspective, it's this battle for rationality, and recognizing and showing
00:09:33people that they're being tricked, and trying to, you know, show, open up behind the curtain.
00:09:41And I think both approaches are similar in the fact where it's like, the number one thing
00:09:45that we talked about in our last episode about what are the red flags of a coercive sort of
00:09:54new apostolic reformation genre cult community, the biggest thing that I, that we talked about
00:10:02was supernatural authority manufactured through deception.
00:10:07And so, it's a very natural thing of, like, speak truth to deception, and that will undo deception.
00:10:15But unfortunately, I have never seen that ever work.
00:10:19Like, legitimately, in my experiences, I have never seen someone just be truthed out of being
00:10:27deceived, because that is the whole way that these systems are structured, is to inoculate
00:10:39people from the truth.
00:10:41Like, it's like you give, there's version of apologetics where, say you're in a cool community
00:10:50like IHOP, we had a lot of eschatological and apocalyptic doctrine, which, from people who
00:10:58have more sort of mainline Christian, that was the big red flag, and people would, I even
00:11:03remember people talking about, like, hey, you talk about the end times a whole lot.
00:11:07And I, I remember being, like, 10 years old, and already being prepared to defend myself
00:11:17against accusations of heretical apocalyptic doctrine.
00:11:24And this sort of like, oh, well, it's not, either not rational or not biblical to believe
00:11:29that God is going to come back in 2010 or 2015, or that we're among the last generation.
00:11:35And that just, it never was too threatening of an idea to my system and to my conceptual
00:11:46system.
00:11:47And I say, I think this is true for a lot of people, not just me, who are in these
00:11:52communities,
00:11:52because that's the whole point.
00:11:53Like, if we build our worldview thinking that we are separate from everyone else, thinking
00:12:00that we have information that everyone else doesn't have.
00:12:03And so, when people come and say, hey, here's the truth, we say, no, you just don't know.
00:12:08Like, and even when you are ready to step out of the world, even when you're maybe two feet
00:12:15out of the world, I think that there's still that response of being like, well, no, that
00:12:20those belief systems that I fixed into my brain, it takes a long time to rewire those.
00:12:30And so, trying to address it either internally as an individual or externally, like, say you're
00:12:37trying to talk to a friend or a family member who's in these communities, if you attack it
00:12:42via a rational doctrinal perspective, it just will create this sort of adversarial tension
00:12:50that is part of the whole scheme to keep people coming back.
00:12:56And, I mean, what do these communities do but separate people from their family and their
00:13:02friends and the other people that care about themselves?
00:13:04So, if, John, you come to me and you're telling me, hey, Jed, you know, these beliefs that
00:13:11you have about the end times and X, Y, and Z are not based in gospel and are not true
00:13:18and
00:13:19they're false.
00:13:19All of that is so totally fair for you to be saying, and obviously, it's stuff that
00:13:25we talk about on here all the time.
00:13:27But I have been sort of inoculated to be able to be like, I've heard that before and I know
00:13:33how to respond and I will now not only remove myself from conversation with you, but I will
00:13:40start discounting other things that you say.
00:13:42And that's a really hard, hard thing.
00:13:47And I think that that's why the first step of coming out of a community like this is,
00:13:55has to be identity and community based.
00:13:58It has to be, it's the same as like if you're talking to a family member who is in an
00:14:04abusive
00:14:05relationship.
00:14:05Like, you have to create a safe space for them to feel loved and cared about so that
00:14:12they're not terrified that when they lose their abusive relationship, that they will
00:14:20lose all connection to the only people that they care about and love.
00:14:23And it's the same thing, I think, in cult communities.
00:14:26If people do not feel like they have an identity outside of that cult group or don't have a
00:14:41community outside of that cult group or don't have people who care about them outside of
00:14:46that group, it is incredibly difficult to step out.
00:14:52Now, early when I began doing this, I had a guy tell me that if you get them doctrinally
00:14:57sound, the rest will take care of itself.
00:15:00If you can teach them a correct sound doctrine, the rest will take care of itself.
00:15:04And I ran with it because I was stupid.
00:15:07I mean, I hate to say it.
00:15:09I know that that's going to offend a lot of people and I'm going to qualify that.
00:15:13So don't get mad at me yet.
00:15:15There are people who believe that that is true, but they're not thinking of the other side of
00:15:21the equation.
00:15:22And the other side being, you can try to teach them sound doctrine, but you have a level of
00:15:28learning that goes far beyond what they have because they've been trained everything to be
00:15:34different.
00:15:35And I'm going to use this example, which is a, I'm not sure it's the best example, but
00:15:39off the top of my head, if somebody were to tell you it's a really good thing if you rotate
00:15:44your tires often on your car, that's actually true.
00:15:48It's a good thing.
00:15:49You, you will wear the tires evenly.
00:15:51That's good.
00:15:52But what happens in these extremist groups, they'll take something that's so simple that
00:15:57everybody else has a common sense understanding and they'll take it to an extreme level.
00:16:01So say they're preaching, well, you need to change the tire.
00:16:05You need to rotate the tires every day.
00:16:07So now the frame of reference is different.
00:16:09So if I come to you and I say, Jed, it's good to change your tires frequently, your frame of
00:16:14reference is, okay, I must do this every day.
00:16:16He just said that he affirmed it, but he didn't really affirm it.
00:16:19You're two people speaking basically two different languages.
00:16:23And that's really what I'm driving at.
00:16:25When you're in that mindset, you've been trained that the end of the world is coming soon.
00:16:31Every single aspect of conversation has that frame of reference.
00:16:36So when you're talking in the background, I'm thinking, okay, Iran is having this meltdown
00:16:41right now that's going to wreak havoc in the gasoline systems of the world.
00:16:46That's part of the coming in time.
00:16:48And I can see that the end is coming.
00:16:50My frame of reference is grounded in that.
00:16:53So when you come to me, you've never been in this kind of thing.
00:16:56Your frame of reference is not grounded in the fear that we had.
00:16:59So the two languages don't actually work together.
00:17:03You might as well be speaking Spanish, and I'm speaking English, and I don't understand
00:17:07Spanish.
00:17:07That's really how it is.
00:17:08Now take it a step further.
00:17:11We were trained in the movement that separation is a good thing.
00:17:16And we were trained to those same extremes, like rotating the tires.
00:17:20I've heard, I can't tell you how many times, Jesus said it will cause father to separate
00:17:25from son, mother, from daughter.
00:17:27All of those references in the Bible are just pounded in my head.
00:17:32But we thought separation meant from other Christians, so we had taken it to an extreme
00:17:38level.
00:17:40Anytime somebody talks about a passage that's like that, to a person who has escaped that
00:17:46type of group, well, they just left their closest friends.
00:17:49They just left all of their family, all of their friends, everything that they had, they
00:17:53left behind.
00:17:54They feel like they're actually fulfilling that passage, and you're trying to get them
00:17:58into a new body of people.
00:17:59And so now part of it wants to go down the martyr complex route, and the other part is
00:18:05thinking, but I really need friends.
00:18:07So really, the underlying issue, that is a psychological problem.
00:18:11You really need to go into some counseling when you're at that level of destructive.
00:18:16But there are people out there that try to fight it with theology instead of proper counseling.
00:18:22Yeah.
00:18:22And I'm kind of like you.
00:18:24It really doesn't work first off.
00:18:26When you first come out, you really, really need, even if it's not a therapist or a licensed
00:18:31counselor, you need at least a minister who's willing to sit and listen to you and hear you
00:18:37before trying to correct you.
00:18:39The problem is, as I experienced when I left the group, there are an awful lot of ministers
00:18:45who really want to correct you first, and it does not work.
00:18:49Yeah, yeah, because you need to rebuild the house immediately.
00:18:53There's this sort of desperation to, both on the individual level and on the then pastoral
00:19:00level, there can be this obsession with like, don't deconstruct too far.
00:19:09We have to have these sort of foundations.
00:19:11We got to have these pillars, which honestly, this is why, and I've talked about this before
00:19:17on here, the healthiest from a psychological perspective and emotional perspective, I think
00:19:26that when people have just lost religion entirely, I've seen quicker processes of healing, not
00:19:36to say that they can't reconstruct or refine their religious identity afterwards, but when
00:19:44you, it's so difficult because it's every piece of your doctrine is so intertwined with the doctrine
00:19:54that you were a part of.
00:19:57And that's, I think that's what the scary part.
00:19:59I remember myself being like, I can't question prophecy because then, I don't know why, but it
00:20:10was like, well, if I question prophecy, then I'll just question God.
00:20:16This sort of like, if God isn't speaking, then God doesn't exist.
00:20:25And that's not necessarily a rational, again, that's not necessarily, you could totally, I
00:20:29could be like, oh, okay, prophecy as I grew up with, I can let that go and still totally
00:20:36have a firm understanding of God exists and maintain my Christian sort of rudimentary basic
00:20:45beliefs system.
00:20:47But for, but when I was like 24, 25, I remember this, I remember this mental hang up and I
00:21:00can
00:21:01still almost even feel it where I would be questioning because of course I was a very
00:21:06questioning individual who was trying to get to the core of what was going on.
00:21:11But then my questions would inevitably have limitations where thought processes would go
00:21:18so far and then they would hit this wall where internally I was like, okay, if you take one
00:21:23step farther, the whole house is coming down.
00:21:25And honestly, it wasn't until I allowed the whole house to come down and was like, okay,
00:21:31well, like, so then I don't believe in God.
00:21:33And there, there had to be that moment of me saying, okay, let me just, let me just start
00:21:43again, you know?
00:21:45And once I stepped past that, it, I remember, I can still think about where I was.
00:21:53I was on a walk, um, in near my old apartment and I can still see like the, I can
00:22:01hear the,
00:22:03um, walk signal going on because I'd hit the button and there was the walk signal that was
00:22:09going off and the, so it allows you to go.
00:22:15And on that block, I had been hitting that wall and then going back around and then hitting
00:22:22the wall and then stopping and hitting the wall.
00:22:24And then finally I was like, well, what if I just didn't, what if I just let it go?
00:22:28And I remember as I started walking the street, it's like, I believed in God on one side of
00:22:33the street and then I didn't believe in God by the other side of the street.
00:22:37Right. And I think that this is going to be very hard and people are not going to love what
00:22:44I'm
00:22:44about to say here, but I think that was probably the most singular healing experience that I had
00:22:51internally. Um, there was other things that happened, um, but that was one of the most
00:22:56important deep programming, uh, moments for me because it was the last real bit of leverage that
00:23:03all of these really nasty belief systems that I had grown up with. It was the last thing that they
00:23:09sort of had to cling on to. Um, and once I sort of cut that, then I finally could be
00:23:17like, okay,
00:23:18what do I believe? And then I started reading Kierkegaard and I started reforming my worldview
00:23:25and re-pieced it together and had a different sort of conception of God and went through. And, um,
00:23:34but that moment for me, I think was so important. And I think that for people who are listening,
00:23:41I think there's probably going to be people who are right there and in this really difficult
00:23:47situation where they have these, like, I can't let go of this belief because if I do,
00:23:54everything comes crashing down and sometimes you got to let it come crashing down. And again,
00:24:00regardless of whether or not it's about good doctrine or rebuilding the house, I think that
00:24:07people just having the space and freedom that they can allow that conceptual scheme that they have built
00:24:14in their heads, allow that to crash and feel that the people around them will still love them and care
00:24:20about them and be there for them, um, is incredibly important to anybody's, um, transition to, um,
00:24:31or deprogramming of, of, we could call it bad doctrine. We could call it cult beliefs,
00:24:38whatever deprogramming of whatever that you want to call it. Um, I think that having that safety
00:24:43and security to, um, re-pick up the pieces is, is, or, or to let the pieces drop is so
00:24:51important.
00:24:53Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
00:24:58modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe
00:25:03movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham
00:25:09Historical Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find
00:25:16the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and
00:25:22others with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources
00:25:29and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute
00:25:36to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.
00:25:41And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening
00:25:46to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for
00:25:51your support. One of the things that so many people miss whenever somebody leaves one of these groups
00:25:57is that every single person who leaves it, whether they are Christian afterwards or not, they all,
00:26:06in my opinion, become atheists for a brief second of time. Because they've been taught a false god,
00:26:12you have to tear the false god down. And when you tear it down, you have to decide what is
00:26:18god. So
00:26:18there's this moment in time where you have nothing and then you have to rebuild. That is the most difficult
00:26:24process to go through. Because you're basically shaping your own identity, but it gets worse than
00:26:30that. You are trained in these movements not to trust your own judgment. So whenever you're in a high
00:26:37control, high spiritual environment, they're telling you that don't trust your own judgment, trust the
00:26:43leader's judgment. He will give you all of the answers to all of your questions. Well, now suddenly you
00:26:48found out that those answers are wrong. Yeah. And how did I not know that they were wrong?
00:26:52I was in the group. I'm smart. I'm a smart man. How did I not know that they were lying
00:26:57to me this
00:26:58whole time? So what happens is your system completely collapses. And everything that they
00:27:04told you about God, you start going back through all of the prophecies, all of the Bible passages
00:27:08that were your favorites, all of the different things that you believed. And you start to realize
00:27:13that when it's like pulling, you ever play Jenga? You pull that bottom, that little bottom block out,
00:27:19the whole thing's come crashing down if you've got one solid false doctrine that everything's built
00:27:25on. And what happens for most people is they'll start pulling out little pieces at the top and
00:27:30they're afraid to address that big bulk that's at the bottom. So they take off the top and they'll say,
00:27:35I'm still a Christian. But they still got this thing underneath that's really, really bad that came
00:27:41directly from the cult indoctrination. And then what happens is, like I said at the beginning of this,
00:27:47now you've got somebody who is trying to help you in a Christian way with good intentions.
00:27:53And they say, okay, let's rebuild this at the top. And they're really not addressing the core. So
00:27:59that core still exists. What happens is, and I've actually seen this quite a few times now,
00:28:05though, the people get into a church, they have people who are doing this, and they're so happy,
00:28:09they feel free. They have this, I hate to say it, but it's like the smiling kid through the graveyard
00:28:14for
00:28:15one to five to seven years. And then suddenly somebody pulls out that one Jenga piece,
00:28:22and the whole thing comes crashing down, and their world has just ended in the new church.
00:28:27So now they begin to lose confidence in the new church because, oh my gosh, how did that happen?
00:28:33And you can't tell somebody, okay, your entire world view, everything that you believe is going
00:28:37to come crashing down, fix that first, and then go into a new church. I'm not saying that at all.
00:28:43But you do have to address the core problem. And when you do, it's going to come crashing down.
00:28:49What really people need, they need a strong support group of people who can help them
00:28:56when it crashes, because they have also gone through the crash.
00:28:59And I think that people who have gone through the crash, or even hearing testimonies, I think that
00:29:06this is one of the biggest things that has encouraged me sharing about my story in my life,
00:29:12is there's a lot of people who are in the midst, or have been going through the crash, and hear
00:29:18a bit
00:29:18of my story, or, you know, this isn't just about me, but from where it's felt valuable sharing my story,
00:29:26is that just, when you're in the crash, it's an incredibly isolating, alone period,
00:29:34where you feel uniquely like you are dealing with something that no one else understands or has gone
00:29:43through. And I think that makes a whole lot of sense. Like, if you were a part of a community
00:29:47that
00:29:48was very specific in its doctrine, and very like, specific in its sort of apocalyptic, or religious
00:30:02makeup, deprogramming, it feels different. Like, you can read about people coming out of other cults
00:30:07and whatnot, but it just doesn't feel quite the same. And you also, it's you, it's you are then in
00:30:14this
00:30:14place of being like, well, who am I? What do I believe? What do I think of myself? I had
00:30:21so much
00:30:21self-pride and identity built into this idea that like, I was hearing the Lord speak to me in my
00:30:29Bible
00:30:30studies. And now I don't know if I believe that anymore, or I don't, you know, that fire tunnel
00:30:35that I went through at Bethel, like, I felt changed as I went through that. Do I have to rethink
00:30:41through
00:30:42that experience and reform who I am? And it's an incredibly terrifying experience. And I think
00:30:49that that's why, you know, I want, it will, it will be terrifying. Like, I wish that I could
00:30:57get on here and say that it won't, that it's easy, and you get through. And I mean, I talked
00:31:06about the,
00:31:08I believed in God by one side of the street and by the other side of the street that my
00:31:13belief had
00:31:13totally changed. Which is true, like, schematically, I think that there was a mental shift. And I think
00:31:19that those mental shifts can happen incredibly quick. What I did not say is that I was married
00:31:26during that time. And then I, because of that experience, not just because of that, there was
00:31:33other things too. But like, my shift in my faith and my belief very much impacted the fact that I
00:31:40very quickly got a divorce after that. And my relationship with my then wife fell apart. And my
00:31:47relationship with my father became extremely restrained. And my relationship with some of my
00:31:54best friends, I was in a Bible study, and like a house church. And it wasn't even a really that
00:32:02toxic house church or anything like that. But I had suddenly lost a piece of connection with
00:32:08many of the people I cared about. So, as much as it was, it took me only a crossing of
00:32:16the street
00:32:17distance to sort of let that Jenga fall. The consequences of that in my life were incredibly
00:32:26difficult. And to be honest, I even had a lot more resources than a lot of other people. Like,
00:32:32there was a lot of people in my life who were there and supporting me and wanted to hear me
00:32:38ask
00:32:38questions. And we're going through some of the same. Like, whether deprogramming or deconverting in
00:32:46general or just deprogramming from sort of IHOP version of Christianity, there was a lot of
00:32:52people who were going through that that I could kind of talk with and identify with who were
00:32:57very empathetic. But even that, like, there was a darkness, you know, dark nights of the soul period
00:33:03after I had that Jenga fall down. And I think one thing that is very hard that is specific to
00:33:15the
00:33:15sort of new apostolic reformation world. I'm sure it is for other sort of cult communities as well,
00:33:21but the desire for supernatural giftings and the excitement and frenzy of the world that we have
00:33:30talked about is so enticing and exciting. It is also something that talks about radical transformation
00:33:41all the time. I mean, that's how you get people into these worlds. That's the cell is your life
00:33:48will be changed in an instant. All of these revival groups and revival meetings are all about the
00:33:56presence of God will come and touch you and your life will be changed and addiction and pain and these
00:34:02feelings of loss will be healed in a second because that's God's power. And a lot of people do feel
00:34:08some of
00:34:08that to begin with where it is radical immediate transformation. I mean, this is that I'm using
00:34:14language that literally, I think Bethel uses a lot of this language is talks about radical transformation.
00:34:22The harsh truth of life is that things don't happen radically and quickly. Like they just don't.
00:34:28They, they, the ship turns slowly. And I remember talking with someone even within the last few months
00:34:35about, um, I was talking with someone who was still at Bethel and I, I think that they are a
00:34:41very
00:34:41good person and I very much appreciated the conversation with them and they're doing
00:34:46what they can to help, um, advocate for system changes of accountability in Bethel. So,
00:34:54all of all really good things, but they were talking about my dad and they're like,
00:35:00Hey, we can, there's this new, um, I don't remember what they called it, but it was basically like
00:35:10a center. It wasn't a rehabilitation center. They called it something different. It literally
00:35:15might've been called the transformation center. Um, I think I may have even mentioned this on a
00:35:19previous podcast, but it was a place where they were like, Hey, I want you to tell your dad about
00:35:26this.
00:35:26He can come get healed of drug addiction, of alcohol addiction, and you know, mental health
00:35:32stuff. I've seen people transformed. It's a week long process. And I remember being very
00:35:38immediately frustrated while on the phone call with this person, because I was like,
00:35:43this isn't a week you don't, you don't go and spend when you have a lifetime of alcohol and drug
00:35:50and mental health, um, addiction. Like that is a, that is something that my dad will,
00:35:55if he so chose and I'm hoping he does, if he's choosing to address those issues, it will take him
00:36:03his entire life to, to get out of that because you know, the whole, the body keeps score from like
00:36:10a
00:36:10very fizzy physical and physiological thing. And just even like a spiritual and emotional thing,
00:36:17especially when it comes to addictions, like it takes time, it takes effort and you,
00:36:23it takes the individual being brave enough and confident enough and committed enough to making
00:36:30that decision every single day. And I think the bill of goods that these new apostolic reformation
00:36:36worlds sell is that, Hey, we can do it in an instant. We can give it to you right now.
00:36:43No costs,
00:36:44zero, you know, zero down payment, no cross up front, zero APR, you know, like you, it's,
00:36:50it's a sales technique to be like, your life will transition the moment that you step into
00:36:57our doors and it will be different. And so I think that it's uniquely difficult for people coming out of
00:37:04that world to then be like, Hey, not only are you going to lose all of this stuff, it's going
00:37:09to take
00:37:10years, months, maybe even decades for you to deprogram and to not be dealing with some of
00:37:18the wounds that you gained in this world. And it's so much easier to be like, okay, well,
00:37:24I'm going to just ignore it. I'm not going to step out because I'm, I'm not, I'm not ready to
00:37:30do a
00:37:30two, three year process where I feel terribly alone. Um, I'm not willing, or that's, you know,
00:37:39going back to the white people are out of the frying pan into the fire. You go, you step out,
00:37:45you immediately feel this loneliness and isolation, and then you find a different fix to be like, okay,
00:37:50well, this group is structured very the same, but their leader hasn't committed sexual assault or
00:37:59something like that. And so therefore they must be a better group and community. And it's the same
00:38:04stuff, just different branding and, or 10 years ahead of time. And so I think that that's,
00:38:10unfortunately, I think that that's what makes it such a hard sell is that it takes time and it's
00:38:16going to be hard for a really long time. I want to circle back to something you said. I've talked
00:38:20about this before, but very minimally because there are topics that are really hard for people who are
00:38:27thinking about leaving. And this is one of them. Picture a Halloween party where you come to the
00:38:35party and there's a man that's standing there giving you the mask that you're going to wear
00:38:39and gives you a slip of paper that says you're going to become this character. So here's your
00:38:44mannerisms. Here's how you're going to act. You're going to wear this mask. And then you get into the
00:38:51party and they're telling you on that piece of paper, if you leave this party, you can never come back
00:38:55into this party. And then suddenly everyone in the party gets amnesia and they try to figure out who
00:39:01they are. And the only thing they have is that piece of paper and that mask. And so they continue
00:39:06wearing the mask. Now picture two of those people get married and they still have amnesia and they
00:39:12still keep in character and they still wear the mask. That's extreme of an example. But if you think
00:39:20about what's happening in these groups, and this is not my opinion, you can go read, I think I read
00:39:26that exact, maybe not the exact example, but very similar in Dr. Stephen Hassan's Combating Cult Mind
00:39:32Control. When you're in a group and you get married, you are being given an identity from the leader.
00:39:39And that identity isn't yours. And what happens is your own personality tries to conform to that identity
00:39:46and it creates your internal makeup of personality. It's not yours, but it's yours combined with the
00:39:55identity of the group. So you have a personality type that's not really yours. What happens is when
00:40:01you leave the group, two people will be married and as that identity starts to erode, they get to the
00:40:09point where now their true identity starts to come forth and they start to realize that's not the
00:40:16same person that I married when I was in that group. I have talked to people who this is the
00:40:22issue.
00:40:23They suddenly realize I don't know my wife. I have no idea who she is because she was a totally
00:40:29different person in the group or vice versa. I got lucky with my wife because I realized that when I
00:40:37was in it, I had a different personality and I was a jerk and I didn't like that person. So
00:40:42I started to
00:40:43come up with a new identity and it was more genuinely me. My wife also is not the person
00:40:50she was in the group at all. You would not recognize her, but I like the person she's become. And
00:40:56so
00:40:56I'm one of the few people that I actually ended up better in a better situation than when I was
00:41:03in it.
00:41:04But there are other people who when their identity erodes their personality or their
00:41:11erodes the cult identity and their true personality starts to show, they realize that they actually have
00:41:16incompatible personalities. And what do you do with this, right?
00:41:21So there are people who work through it, they'll go to counseling, etc. But in the end,
00:41:25some people and there's a percentage of the people that they realize I can't reconcile this. This is just not
00:41:31going to work.
00:41:33And yet at the same time, in most cases, they've been taught that when you leave,
00:41:38your whole world is going to fall apart. In fact, I had prophecies about me and my wife getting a
00:41:43divorce within a year after leaving. I actually was prophesied against, and that's a crazy story
00:41:50for another day. But that's the type of mentality that they give you. You can't come back to our
00:41:54Halloween party once you leave. And that's just so wrong. At the same time, you're dealing with that,
00:42:01you're dealing with something else that complicates it further. You start to feel betrayed by the
00:42:07people that was in said party, because they're telling you, I can't, I can't be with you. I can't,
00:42:13we can't fellowship because you're not part of us. And not everyone in the movement is knowingly
00:42:18doing this. They're just as part of their cult makeup. So you start to feel betrayed by the people
00:42:25that you left. You start to feel incompatible with the people you left with. And now what do
00:42:32you do with this? Not only are you dealing with all of the things that we've talked about where
00:42:36your identity as a religious person is crumbling, well now your identity as just simply the family
00:42:44unit is starting to crumble. It's really hard. And that's why I say you really need a strong group of
00:42:49support people who understand what it is you're going through because they've been through it as
00:42:54well. Yeah. And I think hearing those stories of people going through it, and like stories like
00:42:59yours, where I love what you were saying about how your wife is not the same person that she was,
00:43:08but you appreciate who she has become and fallen more in love with, you know, who she's become.
00:43:14I think of my best friend, you know, just when I, that Bible study that I was talking about,
00:43:24when I kind of had to deprogram so much and came out of not just the IHOP Christian world,
00:43:36but the Christian world in general, and you know, obviously a very terrifying experience.
00:43:41Um, my best friend, uh, had a very similar experience. He had also gotten married maybe
00:43:51a year before I had, and so was, was recently married. Um, and both of us, I remember us talking
00:44:00about it because we both sort of started down this road and we both recognized that our wives were not
00:44:07with us on this road. And that was going to be a problem. And I remember him and I both
00:44:13having
00:44:14this conversation about how he was like, we kind of were like, Oh, I wonder which one of us is
00:44:21going
00:44:21to get divorced or both of us, not in a, not in a, Hey, we don't want to be with
00:44:26our wives anymore,
00:44:27but just in a, we very, we're had a very sober understanding that the world that this, the
00:44:34steps that we were going down would lead to strain in our new marriages that would inevitably cause,
00:44:43um, discussion of divorce, if not actual divorce. So, uh, quickly after that, I, my,
00:44:51me and my wife got divorced. Um, my friend though, however, it was the same thing after about a year
00:45:00or a year and a half of some really tough times in their marriage. Um, they both kind of came
00:45:10to a
00:45:10new place. Um, and they both kind of changed and, and took off the mask a little bit. Um, and
00:45:18were able
00:45:19to say, Oh, the person beneath the mask that we were putting up are, is something that we love
00:45:24and care about. And I just actually was visiting them. They have, uh, two kids and, um, are doing
00:45:31super well together. And so you can see, and you can hear these testimonies. It's not going to be
00:45:36this testimony of like, Hey, I stepped out and my marriage and my relationship with my family and all
00:45:45of these things were suddenly perfect. And all of these things, this was just the one thing that
00:45:49was affecting me. You're not going to hear a whole lot of those testimonies of, Hey,
00:45:53immediate transformation of freedom, maybe internally. There might be, there certainly
00:45:58are some things where you let that go and you're like, Oh my goodness, I didn't realize how much
00:46:02this particular fear of the end times, for instance, was affecting me on a day to day basis.
00:46:09And that was terrifying. And I suddenly let that go and I'm living a much healthier life.
00:46:15That certainly does happen. But the, the stories of transformation are ones that take a long time.
00:46:21And even for someone like me, where my marriage did fall apart and there were, you know, my relationship
00:46:27with my father more or less fell apart then. And then certainly did later, um, because of things that
00:46:34I have talked about extensively on here. Um, but I, I am so thankful for like, I am, I am
00:46:41living a much
00:46:43healthier and happier life. I'm proud of who I am. And I have my own conception of who I am
00:46:50and what I
00:46:50bring to the world and to the people around me is so much more stable and so much more actionable.
00:46:59It's something that I can do on a sing. You know, I can, I can be a better brother. I
00:47:03can be a good teacher.
00:47:04I can be a patient, um, partner. I can be a good friend. Like I can create good art. I
00:47:09can come on here and
00:47:11share my beliefs. Like there's so much that is, um, opened up that were much more difficult to do in
00:47:19previous iterations of, of the life that I was living. Um, and I'm so thankful for it. It just took
00:47:26me three,
00:47:27four years of some really dark times to feel the sort of benefits and, um, freedom that was granted
00:47:36to me from sort of deprogramming and, and kind of stepping out of, of, uh, a cold community.
00:47:43And I think one of the biggest things that I really need to mention on this is you may swing
00:47:48to the
00:47:49opposite extreme after you leave picture this pendulum and you're in the pendulum of life.
00:47:54I'm using the examples. Hopefully they resonate with somebody, but you're in a pendulum. For me,
00:48:00it was 37 years. So for 37 years, I was in a pendulum that was pushing this big bag of
00:48:08baggage
00:48:09one direction this way. Right? So I'm in this extreme. Well, when you leave,
00:48:14suddenly you swing the other way and your baggage is still left back here. And oh boy, I'm free.
00:48:18I can rethink everything. I can, you're bouncing off the walls. And I, I've watched people. We
00:48:24actually, when I first set up all the support groups, I actually set up a specific group for
00:48:30the people that were the party animals who, oh boy, I'm free. I've left all this rights. What
00:48:34they didn't realize is they had, for me, it was 37 years of pushing that baggage on that pendulum
00:48:39one direction. Yes, I may have swung over here, but I left my baggage back over there.
00:48:45Right. And I'm not really thinking through it. And some of that I needed. Some of it I didn't.
00:48:50Some of it I, you know, it's, it's a big bag of stuff you got to sort through. What doctrines
00:48:55do I
00:48:56believe? What prophecies were real? I watched things that I can't explain. Was that all fake? What,
00:49:01what was that stuff? And so you've got this baggage that you're sitting on the other side. Yes,
00:49:07you may be off into freedom, but what happens with a pendulum, you're going to swing back the other
00:49:11way. And eventually you're probably going to come back and hit that. And you do need to address it.
00:49:16People who bottle that stuff up and say, I'm free. I'm just going to join a new church. I'm not
00:49:21going
00:49:21to think about anything in my past. I've had people contact me. Actually, I went out to recently with a
00:49:27person who we met for coffee and they said, I just don't think about it at all. When people ask
00:49:33me
00:49:33what my background is, I just tell them it's uninteresting. And they don't even address it.
00:49:38So what they're doing basically is they're leaving their baggage back there, but they don't realize
00:49:43there are parts of that that contain their true identity. And you really have to go through it and
00:49:49separate, okay, what part of that was the cult creating an identity within me back to the Halloween
00:49:55party? What was on that piece of paper? And what did I have before I got amnesia? You really have
00:50:01to
00:50:01go through that and try to find, basically it's finding yourself. And if you don't do that,
00:50:06if you bottle that up, what happens is it's like a pendulum the other way. The longer you go,
00:50:12the further you're going to get and you're going to come back crashing hard, really hard.
00:50:16I think that's such a good, such a wise statement. And I think even for me,
00:50:23there was that experience of leaving the IHOP community and swing hard to, especially when I,
00:50:30like I moved to Colorado after living in Kansas city in my mid twenties, after getting divorced and
00:50:37leaving Christianity in general and, and having all of these experiences that I didn't want to talk
00:50:43about because I didn't know how to contextualize any of them. And whether from Christianity, IHOP,
00:50:52divorce any of those things, like it, it was this weird sense where I, in certain, certain communities,
00:51:00I, or conversations, I would just kind of be someone without any backstory or any history.
00:51:06And I don't think that it was until 2023 when everything that went down with Mike Pickle,
00:51:14and then obviously my dad, and it sort of forced me to come back this way. And not in a
00:51:20way that like,
00:51:22I believed these things growing up, I rejected all of them. And then I came back to believe some of
00:51:28them
00:51:29more in a sense of like, I grew up in this world. I wanted nothing to do with that world.
00:51:35I put it
00:51:36behind me, tried to ignore it. And then I sort of was forced to be like, okay, well, what was
00:51:42the world
00:51:43that I grew up in? And how much is that still a part of me? And I think with my
00:51:47father to, you know,
00:51:49very much being like, how much did I internalize this? How much, especially with relationships,
00:51:57like romantic relationships, I think, knowing how I never had a very healthy relationship modeled to me
00:52:07from my parents, but not just that in the whole community at IHOP, there were not a whole lot of
00:52:12healthy marriages that were modeled to me. And now, you know, looking back, you can see that
00:52:17much more extensively too. And so, I think that there was a really important moment to come back
00:52:26and address and be like, hey, what are the things that I can own that are just about me, about
00:52:31like,
00:52:32my own patience, my own expectations? One of the big things for me was like, how I deal with guilt.
00:52:38Like, I have had a really hard time and been very manipulated by others and very manic myself
00:52:48when it comes to guilt, because that was the way that people were manipulated in my community,
00:52:55especially IHOP. Like, this is not just the Bethel or NAR. Like, IHOP specifically had this huge
00:53:02guilt framework. I mean, it's a guilt doctrine. And we can talk about that more other times, but
00:53:10the idea was that there was always this responsibility that you're not doing enough
00:53:15or what you're doing is not right. And that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are not coming
00:53:23or coming because of things that you did or didn't do. And every victory was because of God,
00:53:28and everything that went wrong was because of Jed, you know? And so, I would have this sort of very
00:53:35defensive reaction towards any measure of this feeling of guilt. And whether it was
00:53:43small things of a partner being like, hey, you left your dishes out or something like that.
00:53:48They're just this overwhelming sense of like,
00:53:51I am way too upset and too defensive because I got a very simple correction. And then I am upset
00:53:59with the person who said that to me because I am not understanding my own internal reaction has
00:54:06little to do with what they did. And so, I feel all of this like, oh, why are you making
00:54:09it such a big
00:54:10deal? And it's like, I'm the one who's making it such a big deal. All that to say, I think
00:54:15until this
00:54:16sort of process where I was sort of forced to come back and deal with some of this
00:54:26poor wiring that had been done both because of me and because of the community that I grew up with
00:54:34surrounding guilt, because I pendulum swing back and was sort of forced to address this baggage that
00:54:41I grew up with. I genuinely think that that was very transformational for me and very important
00:54:48for me to be able to realign and fix some of the pitfalls that I had developed in response to
00:55:00the
00:55:01community that I was raised in. And I don't agree and don't think that people should just like
00:55:07abandon and not look back, you know, do the whole pillar of salt thing of like,
00:55:12run and don't look back lest you turn into a pillar of salt. I think that,
00:55:16you know, you need to be able to recognize what was the effects of the world that I grew up
00:55:21in.
00:55:21And again, takes a lot of a lot of courage and takes a lot of like failing, you know, relation
00:55:29for
00:55:29me, it was a lot of me being like poor at maintaining relationships because of this guilt that I was
00:55:34bringing in that was like, okay, I got to get my shit together. You know, like I got to figure
00:55:39this
00:55:39out. And yeah, so it's not just the first process of leaving. It's also the process of then after
00:55:49some healing coming back to do more of that healing. And I'm sure there will be another
00:55:54whole swing and it'll keep going back and forth. But yeah, it's a process for sure.
00:56:01Yeah. So here's the worst analogy ever. And everybody can, you're welcome to hate me for
00:56:06it. If you want walking dead, the TV show, there's one lady that's got the swords coolest person on
00:56:13the show, if you've seen it. And she has two of the zombies. This is a zombie show and she's
00:56:18got
00:56:18chains around their necks and where she goes, they follow everywhere she goes. They can't make a decision
00:56:25for themselves because they're zombies. They literally, if they were human, they could literally just stop
00:56:31her because there's the force of two against one. But wherever she goes, they're leading.
00:56:37We were in that type of relationship and the cult leader had the chains around our neck.
00:56:42That's where I'm headed with that. Because think of this, we had relationships that you had to be in
00:56:50agreement. And that goes far beyond marriage. We had relationships with friends. You had to be in
00:56:55agreement. If you disagreed with their theology, their doctrine, whatever it was, you're out.
00:57:00Yeah. And here's the hard part. When people get ready to leave, there's this fear that the world
00:57:08is going to come crashing down. And the reason is because they know they were indoctrinated with that
00:57:13and everybody will cut them off because you had to be in alignment. You had to be in agreement. You
00:57:18had to have the chain around your neck while they led you around like a zombie. When you're in that
00:57:24type of
00:57:24environment and you leave, marriage is really hard. Because now you're in a world where you're not
00:57:31being led around with a chain around your neck. And what happens whenever you have a difference
00:57:36of opinion with your spouse? I remember telling somebody, and this was probably a year after we
00:57:43left, that my wife and I have never had a single argument. And they looked at us like,
00:57:48are you kidding me? How does this possible, right? Well, it was because of that. We were so
00:57:56indoctrinated that when the first disagreement happened, our world came crashing down, man.
00:58:03It was awful. I still remember it. It was awful. And what happens is you leave and you need to
00:58:11build
00:58:11new relationships, but you're so walking on eggshells because you need friends. I need anybody who I can
00:58:17have. I've lost all my friends. Anybody, come be my friend. But that's not what you need. You need
00:58:23people that you can build a relationship that does not depend on being in agreement. True friends,
00:58:30they'll disagree. They'll have arguments. We both like the chief, so I can't use this example with
00:58:36you. But I've got another podcaster who he likes the Steelers, and we give each other a bunch of crap
00:58:41because of it. You need people that have differences of opinion. You're not all zombies with a chain around
00:58:47your neck. So, worst example ever, but that's the one that I'll end with. I think it makes a lot
00:58:53of
00:58:53sense. I wouldn't say it's the worst. I've definitely given worse analogies, so I think that's a good one.
00:59:01Well, anyway, hopefully something we've said has helped somebody because I know
00:59:05every single thing that we've talked about I went through, and it was the hardest thing ever. I know
00:59:11that there are other people that are probably thinking the same thing. So, hopefully we've said
00:59:15something to help somebody. Yeah, and just last thought, too, of help people understand for
00:59:21if you're not in it and you're wanting to help someone who is in it and is stepping out. I
00:59:29think
00:59:29that if there's one thing that sticks with people, it's just having a sense of empathy for people who
00:59:34grew up or are a part of some of these cult communities that it takes a long time and being
00:59:41patient with them and being there to help them during this long process is truly the only thing
00:59:48that is going to make it possible for people to get out of it. And I am so thankful for
00:59:54the many
00:59:55people who were there for me. And I don't know if I would be here talking with you, John, if
01:00:00it wasn't
01:00:00for a bunch of different people who were there for me and patient with me and helped me deprogram.
01:00:10Well, thank you so much for doing this. Yeah, my pleasure.
01:00:14Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
01:00:17You can find us at william-pranum.org. For more about the dark side of the new apostolic
01:00:22reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon,
01:00:27Kindle, and Audible.
01:01:0910th of prayer is with you.
01:01:10There's a whole bunch that must be changed in that life.
01:01:10What you're worthwhile to do is to get back and older three students and family members,
01:01:10Now save first one of my Google hal estudant to meet for tour and see messages
01:01:11that have the Indian planet.
01:01:11Mmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm
01:01:27look-hmm displacement-hmm and the German 지역 College
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