00:00She joins us every single Wednesday at 3.20, Ashley Bastock of Cleveland.com and the Orange
00:05and Brown Talk podcast. Ashley, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me guys on this Browns
00:11off day here. It's great to have you here and it's also great to have the Browns take a day
00:17off for once because it's been a week. I do want to start with this. I have enacted a self
00:22-imposed
00:23ban on tanking talk and mock drafts until November 1st of 2026. I think there's an honesty approach
00:31here that I'm trying to take. JP's trying to get like a punishment enacted. If I even mention the
00:37word tanking, where do you stand on this whole nonsense? What do I think your punishment should
00:43be if you do talk about tanking? That's an interesting one. You jumped all the way to
00:49what do you think it should be? Should there be a punishment? I think it's maybe where we should
00:52start the conversation. There should definitely be a punishment. I think, yeah, I think there,
00:56there needs to be a punishment. If you're going to impose a ban on yourself, I think you have to
01:01follow it. So I don't, I don't quite know. Like, does he have to go silent for like two minutes
01:08or
01:08something? That's like the first thing that came to my mind. I know you like to talk, Nick Wilson.
01:13So I think not talking, having to stay silent might be the start of figuring, figuring out what the
01:19appropriate punishment would be. I kind of don't hate that. And then JP just gets to say tank,
01:24tank, tank, tank, tank, tank, tank, tank. I was trying to think of what topic I could do that
01:28he doesn't like that I would take over for those two minutes. But then I'm worried that if I talked
01:32about golf for two minutes, we might also lose listeners. And I don't really want that. You see
01:36the problem that we're in. You have to keep your audience in mind for sure. So I don't know. I
01:41think
01:41we can workshop this here a little bit. You got some time. All right, Ashley. So now that we've got
01:46that at least the initial stage is starting to plan there, we started the show just talking about
01:51that, how this thing's going to go. And it's, it's not just from the quarterback spot, but
01:55obviously it is involving the quarterback spot. What feels like the most realistic way this season
02:01goes? Well, I think the most realistic way is a losing season right now. Right. I mean, I think
02:08that's just what everyone is expecting. I haven't looked at Vegas updated their win total, but
02:14obviously it was a five and a half win. So that's the interesting piece here is, is it going to
02:21be,
02:21is that going to change for most people? I would guess after this past week, most people would
02:28definitely take the under on that. And probably you're wondering if the line should be moved, but
02:33I mean, I still think all things considered my high end of expectations for this team would be roughly
02:41the eight win range. That would be, I think, unexpected and the low end. I mean, you're talking
02:48about three wins potentially, which is where they were at in 2024, obviously. So that would be my
02:55guess, but I think a losing season is, is just the most likely outcome because you know, no one knows
03:02what this is going to look like at quarterback yet. So I want to preface this by saying, it's not
03:06what I
03:06would do. I'm trying to get my myself into the Browns line of thinking, which I know you like to
03:10do as well. And so if I'm, if I'm tell me if I'm off, I think everyone believes that this
03:15is a very
03:15short leash for Deshaun for myself. I feel like it'd be about, I don't know, eight games or so before
03:20the Browns could say to themselves, we gave this a real chance and a real try. I think they have
03:25to
03:26unequivocally know without question that Deshaun can not be what he used to be before they pull the
03:32plug. Are people, are people just, are they too quick to say two games and that's all he gets
03:36and that's going to be over? I think so. I think they are too quick to say that just based
03:40on the
03:41way that Todd Munkin was talking. We asked him flat out, is this like a Deshaun's your starter for
03:47week one and you'll see. And he unequivocally said, no, this is not a week to week thing. So,
03:53I mean, I just keep coming back to, I think there's more from that procedural operational stuff
04:00that they didn't see from Shador Sanders. I mean, there would have been a ton of upside to
04:06starting Shador Sanders. Like we're, we're seeing what the backlash is like now, right? Like there's
04:11really, to me, no real upside to starting Deshaun Watson, unless he was that much further ahead.
04:18And if he was that much further ahead in terms of the procedural operational stuff, I've said this
04:23before. I understand that's boring for fans. I think a lot of fans don't buy it because it's not
04:27necessarily stuff they can see, but it's this stuff happening behind the scenes in the building
04:32that, that they are saying, but like Shador Sanders is so popular there. He's younger.
04:38Obviously the contract is much more appealing to the team. So that's kind of why I'm like,
04:44what else is left? And it's like, they then think that Deshaun is that much further ahead. So
04:48I don't think this is a, this guy has a two game leash situation at all. I mean, I think
04:54they envision him starting a significant number of games for them this season. Now,
04:59that being said, I still think we're going to see Shador Sanders start some games for this football
05:03team at some point, but I don't think it's that two game leash that some fans are hoping for.
05:08Ashley is tomorrow the battle for the third quarterback spot.
05:14That's an interesting way to look at it because I've wondered about this, how they're going to
05:20handle this come cut down day. I actually think it's one of the biggest questions. And right now
05:26where I'm at, I don't know. I don't know if you guys have talked about this extensively. I, if you
05:31have to pick between Dylan Gabriel and Talon Green, I would be more in favor of keeping Talon Green
05:37because of the raw talent that he has and the measurables, you know, from the six, six, and he
05:44runs like a four, three. I mean, he's running like a wide receiver. He broke the quarterback
05:50record for vertical jump at the combine. I think somebody is going to be able to do something with
05:55this guy at some point. And I think the Browns would be wise to keep him in the building. So
06:01I don't know if it's going to just fit or, you know, I think right now they don't want to
06:07trade
06:08Dylan Gabriel unless someone makes them an offer. Like we've seen them be willing to move these guys
06:13before, but I do think for Dylan Gabriel, it's a good showcase opportunity if they would want to
06:20go that route. I think it's something we've seen them be open to in the past is trading these backup
06:25guys. Like they moved Kenny Pickett, right? They moved Joshua Dobbs. They never traded Snoop Huntley,
06:32but they would waive him. You know, they'll move on from these backup guys. So that's kind of where my
06:38thinking is. But for me right now, even without this game, I would be nervous trying to let
06:44Taylon Green clear waivers because I don't know that he would. Are they missing an opportunity to
06:50play Shador and get him some of the operational stuff or no? I don't think so because the rest of
06:55the starters are sitting. And I mean, I kind of felt like that on against the Buffalo Bills, that it
07:01was
07:01just going to be a waste for him to be out there without the starters. And, you know, looking back
07:06on it,
07:06I don't think it was. I think he got really good protection from that backup line. But I think in
07:11terms of the operational stuff, if you're not doing it with the first team, it's like, it's just not
07:15as valuable to me. So I don't think Shador needs to play in this game again. All right. With names
07:23like JJ McCarthy, potentially out there, Anthony Richardson out there. I know we just talked about
07:28Dylan Gabriel versus Taylon Green. Do you think the Browns would be open-minded to adding a different
07:35third quarterback? You know, I don't, I think it would really surprise me at this point. I don't
07:41think it's something they're looking to do. It just would sort of be out of character to me because
07:47how is that deal working out? Like, you know, you don't really see these player for player trades
07:53happening. And I think if anything, they would need to be more focused on next year's rookie
08:01quarterback class than getting someone off the scrap heap this year. I think really the only way
08:06they would do that is if they felt like they needed a different starter, right? Like if they
08:14just felt like, okay, we want to wait and see how this plays out. But I think we already would
08:18have
08:18seen them do that. I think the way they've gone about this off season sort of tells us that that
08:24would be very unlikely, especially in my eyes and the way I've seen them operate. I just don't envision
08:30them giving up assets just to add a third quarterback that, you know, very likely wouldn't
08:36see significant playing time this year at the position. How different, if at all, did Deshaun
08:41look in practice since being named the starter? I don't know that it necessarily looked all that
08:47different. And, you know, I think from the perspective of he was taking like all the reps
08:51with the ones, that was certainly different. But why I ask Ashley, why I ask is because the
08:57perception out there was that Munkin was doing a lot more with Deshaun and running around and
09:01using his feet. I didn't know if you picked up on that or if that was something that maybe the
09:06internet was just taking and running with.
09:07I think it might a little bit be something that the internet is taking and running with. I do think
09:12they maybe are looking at that stuff a bit more. But, you know, there was a period in practice
09:17yesterday where I think a lot of work was being done on the ground. I mean, I think he's going
09:22to want
09:22to use Deshaun Watson like that, but it didn't feel like as I left practice yesterday, I was like,
09:27oh my gosh, I can't believe how much they were doing that. So I don't, I don't know that it's
09:32looked that much different than how we've expected it to, or some stuff we've seen before earlier in
09:38camp. I think Todd Munkin has always known what Deshaun Watson's strengths are in that regard.
09:43And I think he's the kind of coach, the offensive coach that's going to want to try to use that
09:48stuff. Ashley, the two of the things we've monitored on the defensive side of the ball
09:53and will into the start of the season here are the drop-off between Miles Garrett and Jared
09:58Verse and the drop-off between Jim Schwartz and Mike Rutenberg, or at least the change between those
10:03two. What do you think inevitably will make or break whether this defense can remain a top 10
10:09defense this year with a, with a slightly different cast of characters?
10:13Yeah, it's an interesting question because there's been so much change up front, right? So like,
10:21I think sack production is number one, like that front is still going to have to be disruptive.
10:27I think that's a job that's gotten harder with losing Alex Wright this year to that Achilles injury
10:35that he suffered last week. So I think they're going to need that sack production. But I also think
10:41this secondary is going to have to thrive, like playing what I'm guessing is going to be less man
10:46and more disguises. Now, the Browns last year played more man defense than anyone in the league.
10:54I wrote about this recently. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I know it was
10:58like
10:58close to 50%. No one else was even close. I think all the other teams were in like the 30
11:03percentage
11:05markings there across the league. So they've been good at that. But I know the last time like they
11:11tried to play more zone, that was obviously when Joe Woods was the coordinator and it did not go
11:16well. So I'm curious, like now that Grant Delpit, Denzel Ward have more experience, that secondary is
11:22going to have to hold up. Titus Campbell is going to have to have, I think, a year that builds
11:26on his
11:27production last year with the Browns. And I think that's going to be key. And now you had Emmanuel McNeil
11:32-Warren
11:32into the mix. I think he's going to have to show off those ball hawk tendencies that the Browns
11:38really liked him for. But for me, it's about still pressuring the quarterbacks and then still
11:43making sure your secondary is not having busted coverages. All right. So we're wrapping this
11:49whole thing up. You get the final preseason game tomorrow. If you were to tell Ashley Bastock of
11:53a month ago, one thing, what would it have been that really surprised you? The thing that would have
11:59really surprised me, I think, would be the defensive injuries more than anything. Because I think
12:06we largely came into this camp expecting this defense was going to be fine. But the injuries
12:12have gotten to a point where I am a little bit concerned. I've talked about it before. They're
12:16pretty thin up front. They don't have a lot of experience. The fact that Carson Swessinger has
12:22basically missed all of training camp practically is concerning to me because you need his production
12:28too. So I will say offensively, things have kind of played out mostly how we expected coming into
12:34camp. And, you know, we talked about does Deshaun Watson have the edge in the spring? And it seemed
12:39like it. Todd Munkin admitted that the other day. So that was interesting. So I would say just the
12:45defensive injuries, the depth there has become really concerning to me. I think it's something people
12:51need to keep an eye on. And it's something I just didn't expect to have to worry about, quite honestly.
12:56Yet again, Ashley, I get to take a big flex here that this this entire segment did not go off
13:03the
13:03rails. And I just I'm really proud of myself here. I really this is a steady ship today.
13:10Ashley, be good. Thank you. All right. Thanks, guys.
