- 8 hours ago
Willard and Dibs explain how the Giants are already rebuilding -- they just refuse to admit it.
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00:00Here's what I'm saying. You know, this might be a stupid analogy, but I'm going to give it a try.
00:05Okay? Somebody says, and here's why that interested me, the idea of your health on your wrist.
00:13So, let's say you want to change your workout routine, and you set a date.
00:18Okay? Next Monday, we're going to start this new routine.
00:22And then you wake up Monday, and you've got a horrible cough.
00:26You've got the flu.
00:27Well, you're going to say, hey, we're still doing this workout routine, but it might need to wait a couple
00:34days.
00:34Right? I've got to put it aside so that I'm in the right spot, and I can effectively go after
00:41it.
00:42That is my analogy for what the Giants are doing with Rafi Devers.
00:47In other words, the rebuild is already on.
00:51They won't use that word because that's taboo around these parts.
00:56This is a major market and a major financially affluent marketing machine with a beautiful ballpark, the San Francisco Giants.
01:07It is not allowed that they tell their fans, we're rebuilding.
01:12So, just do it without telling anybody.
01:15And the only characteristic that does not fit into a rebuild is that the Giants don't have a quote-unquote
01:23low payroll,
01:25and they are not free from bad contracts.
01:28But that's not for lack of trying.
01:31Because of the CBA, because of the injuries to Chapman, Adamas, because of these situations,
01:37the Giants are basically saying, we're going to get there, but not today.
01:42We're going to have to table that until next year.
01:44But all of the other characteristics of a rebuild, trading veterans, stockpiling prospects,
01:51suddenly changing your focus of scouting to the international realm,
01:57stockpiling high draft picks, accepting losses, accepting losses.
02:04Take a look at what the Giants are doing.
02:06They are calling up people from AAA every day right now.
02:13That doesn't mean that people on the current roster are hurt.
02:16It means they're accepting losses so that they can take a look at individuals.
02:22That's your redefining success.
02:25Progress is now measured by individual player growth.
02:29And the highlight of the season came over the weekend,
02:32when both Baseball America and Baseball Perspectives both came out and said,
02:37the Giants now have a top five farm system in all of baseball.
02:43Those are the characteristics of a rebuild.
02:45And the only reason those big three contracts are still on the team
02:49is because the Giants currently don't have a choice.
02:52But I believe they will.
02:54Now, not with Chapman and Adamas necessarily,
02:56because those two have the right to say no.
02:59They've got no trade clauses.
03:00But keep losing, and I guarantee you that they will wave the clause,
03:07potentially, at some point.
03:09So that's kind of how I see what the Giants are doing.
03:12They'll never use the word.
03:13They'll never tell their paying fans that this is what they're doing.
03:17But all the characteristics of a rebuild have already gotten underway.
03:21Yes, and the proof is in the pudding.
03:23And in this case, the pudding is Robbie Ray expiring, gone.
03:27Arise, gone.
03:28Four of the guys, gone.
03:29And Elliott Ramos, team control.
03:31Well, he decided that he was not going to be somebody who fits into your pitching and defense model,
03:36if you ever can make it back to that.
03:39And so you've got Logan Webb here for two more years under contract.
03:43Is he going to be around to be a part of what happens after the rebuild?
03:47Or does he become somebody who is collateral damage?
03:51Because he is actually somebody who would be attractive in the offseason or attractive at next year's trade deadline with
03:57a year and a half left on his deal.
03:59And so I don't think you're wrong about the idea of the rebuild.
04:03But I disagree with you as far as their ability to make something out of the Devers, Adamus, and Chapman
04:10contracts.
04:10I just don't know if this ownership group—well, I'll just say it this way.
04:14I don't have faith in this ownership group that they will go into their coffers and dig out the money
04:21necessary to make those things go away.
04:23Well, I hear you, and I completely feel where you're coming from on them.
04:27But what gets me thinking about it is, like, you're paying that money anyway.
04:32Like, you are going into the coffers.
04:33You're going into the coffers to pay Rafi Devers.
04:36But you at least have a player.
04:38Like, you're paying for something.
04:39Yeah, but it's getting in your way.
04:41It's not like—in other words—
04:43What was the thought going in to actually acquire him?
04:46And this is where—
04:47That was a different time.
04:47This is where—well, it was a year ago.
04:50Yeah, a lot was different.
04:53Right.
04:53This is where I have doubt about Buster Posey and his ability to do the job.
04:57Totally fair.
04:58So you have a pitcher who turns out to be better than you thought, and you trade him, and you
05:03trade Tibbs, one of your top prospects,
05:05and you bring in Devers, a guy who's going to positionally block your future,
05:10and maybe he's not absolutely the most team-first guy.
05:14And so, okay, fine.
05:16You do that, and, man, he's a good hitter.
05:18You love to have him.
05:19And then you fire a veteran manager, and you bring in a guy with no experience to manage a team
05:24that's got a bunch of vets.
05:25It just feels to me like Buster Posey is kind of making it up as he goes along.
05:29Do you remember what the Giants' record was when they traded for Rafi Devers?
05:32It was probably about 500, maybe a touch above.
05:3741 and 31.
05:38Or 10 above, okay.
05:40And they wound up 82 and 80, is that right?
05:43They lost all the games after that.
05:44Okay.
05:45I can't even remember them winning a game since.
05:49But that's kind of what I mean, is at that time, the Giants were dealing with a very, very different
05:56reality.
05:57The thought was, we're good.
06:00They're 41 and 31.
06:01We're a good team.
06:03And we're in go-for-it mode.
06:06But, my God, we're desperate for a hitter.
06:09The whole organization, for what feels like six to eight years, cannot convince a big-time hitter to join the
06:18team.
06:18They tried on everybody, from Shohei to Bryce to Aaron Judge, et cetera, et cetera.
06:24And they just couldn't do it.
06:25So that's their mentality in that moment.
06:28June 15th, 2025.
06:31The mentality is, we're very good, but we're desperate for a really good hitter.
06:36So, they leverage that, and they go get Rafi Devers.
06:41And from that moment forward, they have been a disastrous baseball team.
06:46So now you're dealing with a completely different reality, where Rafi Devers no longer fits what you're desperate to do.
06:54And think of all that's different.
06:56First of all, you've lost the majority of your games.
06:58Second of all, Bryce Eldridge has become a big leaguer and looks like he's going to stick.
07:04Third of all, you've brought in a new manager who comes straight from college and probably doesn't blend well with
07:1230-year-old, highly-priced veterans who don't want to run hard.
07:17So all of these things are true now that weren't true back in June 15th of last year.
07:22Changes your perspective a lot.
07:24So I'm with you.
07:26All of your concerns and your doubt are completely fair.
07:31But I believe the Giants are going to try like hell to get him out of town.
07:36Of course they'll try like hell, but I don't know if they'll try like hell to the point where you're
07:40going to have ownership be willing to pony up $100 million or so to just buy out the contract.
07:45In fact, it's one thing to pay him for his services and the services continue.
07:50It's another thing to say, hey, Johnsons, I need $100 cold hard mill.
07:55That way we can undo the mistake that I made in trading for him in the first place.
07:59I totally get it, but I guess here's what I mean by this.
08:02The way you said it is perfect, which is you don't know if the ownership will pony that money up
08:09without the services to come along with it.
08:12The way I look at it is, look, they're ponying that money up either way.
08:15And in fact, this could save some of it.
08:18Let's say somebody, just for the sake of the conversation, somebody will pick up 50% of the money.
08:23Someone will pay Rafi Devers $15 million a year for the remainder of the contract.
08:28Well, that's half of your money back, and you're probably, and actually in his case, you're definitely replacing him with
08:36someone who will only make pennies.
08:38So this is, you could look at it as, I don't think ownership will pony up money for nothing.
08:44The other way to look at it is, this will save money that has already been inked.
08:50You're spending that money either way.
08:52So this is a way to save money, because the Giants are threatening right now to dot the entire field
08:59with arbitration people.
09:02Honestly, like, who else are they going to sign for big money?
09:07Maybe a pitcher or something like that?
09:09But if you look at their minor league system, they're going to start plopping cheap people in at every position
09:15around the dungeon.
09:16Well, assuming that those guys are actually good players, which is another piece of this whole bigger conversation where, yes,
09:22it's a rebuild, and I believe that they want to rebuild.
09:25But it's a lot of the same people who've been player development execs in this organization, and you have not
09:31done a good job of developing players.
09:33Also totally fair.
09:34Like, again, you're coming to this conversation with a lot of doubt, and I'm like, fair?
09:40Like, wow, fair.
09:42Beyond fair.
09:43However, Buster Posey, in terms of him drafting players, in terms of the young players he just acquired in these
09:51trade deadline deals,
09:53you know, on that level, we haven't really gotten to a cess buster yet, and you're not wrong to say,
10:00I don't know if these guys are going to become players,
10:02but the baseball people sure like their farm system now.
10:06And my point, though, isn't even if they're going to be good.
10:08My point is, they're going to give them a look.
10:10Like, over the next couple years, you're going to start seeing these dudes graduate up.
10:15I don't know if you saw, for example, Bo Davidson, he won Pacific Coast League Player of the Week for
10:22the week that just ended.
10:23He hit four home runs and hit over .500.
10:26He's going to be in the big league outfield next year.
10:29That's probably why Elliott Ramos is a Yankee.
10:31He's probably going to be the left fielder next year.
10:34And he's going to be cheap as hell for a long time.
10:38So, your doubt is completely fair.
10:40I just think if you are excessively focused on getting Rafi Devers out of town, you'll find a way.
10:48They'll find a way.
10:49And I believe right now that's what they're going to do over the next 11 calendar months.
10:54Right, 11 months until next year's deadline.
10:56And, I mean, it would be great if they could do that and get something back for him and not
11:01just have to pay it down and ship him out.
11:03But I don't really have a lot of faith in the manager.
11:07I think that this year has been mostly a disaster.
11:11He's been learning on the job, and I get that.
11:13I think that he's an ill fit for the roster that you have.
11:15And it's a little different now because Robbie Ray is gone and Arise is gone.
11:19And you're left with Logan and Chapman and Adamas and Devers as your true veterans.
11:25I think that he should have been brought into a team like the team that they actually want to construct
11:30now,
11:30which is Marcelo Meyer and Casey Schmidt and Bryce Eldridge.
11:34Like, go manage a bunch of 24-year-olds as opposed to Rafi Devers.
11:39You're going to try to manage Rafi Devers, and you're going to try to manage Adamas.
11:42And, like, hey, Willie, it's really important to me that you know how many outs there are and stuff.
11:47I mean, no, he's been completely defanged from the get-go.
11:51It's a completely fair opinion.
11:53I think the question is, is when did the front office decide this was a rebuild?
11:59Because that's where my brain goes.
12:02When you ask, why didn't you sign a bunch of relievers?
12:06Why didn't you go spend more for starting rotation?
12:10Why did you get Scooter McGee to go play center field?
12:14Harrison Bader.
12:16Why did you do all those things?
12:17Why did you spend so little?
12:18Well, is it possible that the Giants knew two things already at the beginning of the year?
12:23A, collective bargaining agreement is about to explode,
12:26and we're going to come in with a completely different financial structure for baseball teams a year from now, number
12:32one.
12:33And number two, we're not winning the NL West this year.
12:38We're not going to compete this year.
12:40So let's spend very little.
12:43No long-term contracts, no new long-term contracts, and nothing terribly expensive.
12:50And the bullpen stinks even worse than you could imagine.
12:54The two new starters you brought in do absolutely nothing.
12:59But that fits.
13:01That fits.
13:02All it does is open up spots for young guys to come in and show what they can do.
13:07And the only signing that worked, Luis Arise, no big deal.
13:11It's a year.
13:12And he's gone.
13:12And if it goes well, we can trade him at the deadline.
13:14But Landon Roop turned out to, I mean, not be what he was in April and May.
13:19And so he's back to the drawing board.
13:21And you look at Carson Wisenhunt, and he's been completely uneven as well.
13:25He doesn't look like the answer.
13:26So up and down, even like Blade Tidwell, he came out yesterday and gave up, what, six runs and four
13:33and a third.
13:33And so if you want to look at their pitching internally, they don't have a lot going on right now.
13:38And you have Logan Webb, and you have a bunch of Brubakers, basically.
13:42You're not wrong, which is why they spent their entire draft on pitching.
13:46But that's their answer right now.
13:48They're rebuilding.
13:49So if they are rebuilding, what are we looking at, 2028 or 2029 for your Johnny Levels and your Joe
13:57Suarez?
13:58It's going to be a slow build.
14:00Like I said, there's the Bo Davidsons of the world.
14:02There's a few others who look more ready than others.
14:05But you're going to spend the rest of this year and part of next year checking that out.
14:09You're probably supplemented a little bit with free agency.
14:12But, yeah, I don't even know when next season's going to start.
14:15So, like, no use stressing on it.
14:192028, sure, that sounds about right.
14:21That sounds about right.
14:23Yeah.
14:23Maybe.
14:24Maybe 29.
14:26They're never going to say this.
14:27They're going to do things that can make them act like they're not doing this.
14:31But look at all I'm looking at is their behavior.
14:34Look at their maneuvers.
14:35And they didn't trade any of the big guys, but that's because they couldn't.
14:38Right.
14:39They tried.
14:39I'm sure they tried.
14:41Chapman's injury didn't help.
14:42The other teams knew.
14:44He's not coming back this year.
14:45Right.
14:45And the no trade clause as well.
14:47I don't even know if he would want to be on the move.
14:49And the other one is Willie Adamas, who, you know, the more you watch him play, forget his numbers, the
14:54baseball card, whatever.
14:55Because he'll probably wind up with 26 or 27 home runs again.
14:58But the way he plays, it's not winning baseball.
15:01He's a defensive liability.
15:03He's a little bit of a lost cause on the bases when he's actually running the bases.
15:08To me, he's a guy who he doesn't really fit with a winning team.
15:11He's played well.
15:12Well, but, I mean, they won.
15:13They won in Milwaukee when he was there.
15:15He's just, he's played horribly this year.
15:17It has, it's been a terrible collection of facts from him.
15:21Chris in Santa Clara joining the conversation.
15:24Hey, Chris, what's going on?
15:25Thanks for giving us a ring.
15:27Hey, yeah, thanks, guys.
15:28Hey, a couple quick point outs.
15:30And, you know, I think the first is that when you take a look at who the Giants brought in,
15:35for whatever reason, Posey decided that he didn't want guys coming in who had kind of a big brother vibe
15:41around them,
15:41who were going to get in the clubhouse and really be lifting people up and creating kind of a real,
15:46you know, let's all win together kind of atmosphere.
15:49And that is a big shift, I think, maybe from what a lot of fans had expected.
15:54It's, hey, we brought some guys in, they're really good, but they're, you know, they're kind of lone rangers who
15:59are out there, right?
16:00I think even just mentioned with Adamas and all, I mean, are these guys really seen as, you know, clubhouse
16:06leaders lifting people up?
16:07Come on, let's go get them, real cozies.
16:09I don't get that vibe from these guys.
16:10Yeah, Chris, can I jump in on that?
16:13Like, actually, yes, that was Willie Adamas' calling card when they brought him in, that he was a tremendous clubhouse
16:22guy.
16:22I think they feel that way about Logan, for sure.
16:24They feel that way about Matt Chapman.
16:27The Devers one is totally different.
16:29He's not a leader.
16:30But at that point, again, they were 10 over 500.
16:33They thought they were rolling, and they needed a bopper.
16:36And so they bit.
16:38You know, I don't know.
16:39That's kind of how I see what the original plan was.
16:43Could be.
16:44And then I guess maybe the other little piece just to throw in, I've really been trying to reflect on
16:48Vitello for the whole season.
16:49And then, you know, I've never been a caller coming in going, hey, go after Tony.
16:53You know, hey, listen, he's got his contract.
16:54Let's see how it goes.
16:55But, you know, I'm starting to realize as I dig into him, it's like, who is this guy?
16:59And, you know, people don't get to choose the families into which they're born.
17:03You're just born into it.
17:03You get the parents that you get, right?
17:05So I'm not slamming him for having who he has.
17:07But, you know, his high school coach was his dad.
17:10This is a daddy ball guy.
17:12And, I mean, at the very core of who he is.
17:14And, you know, I mean, I went to a Jesuit high school down in L.A., you know, Loyola, which
17:18is St. Ignatius, Bellarmine, you know, the whole national network.
17:20So he went to a Jesuit school out in Missouri.
17:24The only place he got to go was Spring Hill College, which is the smallest Jesuit college in the entire
17:29country.
17:30That's where he went coming out of his dad's own team in Missouri.
17:34So you go, okay, well, that by itself may be not a bad thing.
17:37And probably, you know, a couple strings got pulled to slip him in over there to Spring Hill.
17:41Plays one year D2, transfers over to University of Missouri, plays three years there.
17:45But at the end, there's no pro ball.
17:47There's nothing.
17:48I mean, hey, let's go and see.
17:49Even, you know, it's low A someplace.
17:51It's straight to go be an assistant coach and then has kind of a run of assistant coach work.
17:56None of that's evil.
17:57But my sense, I'm kind of realizing this guy was never really a superstar at any level where he performed.
18:04If he had truly been that good on a Jesuit high school team in Missouri, he wouldn't have gone D2
18:12Spring Hill.
18:13He would have found, even if it's USF, you know, Santa Clara.
18:17I mean, you know, some average Jesuit universities, right, as far as baseball goes.
18:22And it just kind of makes me wonder, how is he able to relate?
18:28Well, this is always, yeah, Chris, thanks.
18:31This is always, what do you think about this?
18:33I'm not someone who believes.
18:35I know a lot of people do, though.
18:37You have to have been like a great player and then, boom, you can be or at least have a
18:43chance to be a great coach because you can relate to the players better.
18:46I think there's a lot of examples around sports of people who are either mediocre players or not players at
18:52all.
18:52Yeah.
18:53And then they've been great coaches.
18:55I do think that you need to have some sort of a baseline of professional sports.
18:59And in Tony's case, he didn't have that.
19:01And so you come in and he's admittedly learning on the fly.
19:05And some of the portrayals are like he wanted to be treated almost like a teammate to some of the
19:09veterans.
19:10And so when that is the case, it's hard for you to go in there and exert your will as
19:15the boss.
19:15But he also wasn't a great college player.
19:17But then he went and coached a great college team and had a ton of success.
19:21Kyle Shanahan wasn't a great football player.
19:24Right.
19:24But, I mean, Kyle Shanahan's been in the pro game for 20, 25 years now.
19:29And grew up around it.
19:30Right.
19:30Right.
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