- 12 hours ago
Following Paul Toboni's comments during his appearance on The Sports Junkies, Grant & Danny discuss what the Nationals' long-term vision really is. Are the Nationals gearing up to spend like a contender, or are they aiming to follow the Rays' blueprint of building primarily through player development and payroll discipline? Grant & Danny debate what Toboni's comments reveal about the organization's future and whether fans should expect a significant increase in spending anytime soon.
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00:00Paul Toboni was on your flagship home for the Nats yesterday for his weekly interview with the Junkies.
00:06This came after the trade deadline.
00:08And I wanted to play a couple clips when they talked to him about the financials within the organization,
00:13ownership, commitment, money being spent.
00:16You know how I feel about this.
00:18I am nervous about when this ownership group will start spending again.
00:23Feels like the time to do so is this offseason.
00:26But I'm also simultaneously a little bit concerned, while I'm really, really happy with this new regime,
00:32and it's essentially exactly what I would have done is hire a group like this
00:35and ask them to move forward with R&D and research and development and all the analytics and the data
00:41and whatnot.
00:42I don't want them to try to recreate the raise with the brewers.
00:47You can do what the raise and the brewers do, but I'm also handing you a checkbook.
00:51It's number eight or whatever it is, media market in America.
00:54America, it's Washington, D.C.
00:56We don't need to act like a small market team.
00:58And in the back of my head, I just wonder, with every decision that's made,
01:02we assume ownership doesn't want to spend money.
01:04A lot of times when you're the raise or you're the brewers,
01:08you don't want to spend money because you kind of don't think you need to.
01:12And is that the way Tabony's going to operate?
01:15So let's play a couple of these clips and then we'll react to them.
01:17Well, let's start first with Tabony when he was asked why fans should invest emotionally
01:21when ownership has not spent the cash.
01:24It's a fair question.
01:25I think what I would say, though, is just strip out the dollars for a second.
01:31I think what fans most gravitate towards is winning.
01:35You know what I mean?
01:35If we're winning, I think payroll becomes a little bit less relevant, right?
01:42There are a few teams around the league that are winning a bunch of games.
01:50And I think fans aren't talking about payroll as much as they are about them winning a bunch of games
01:55and the players that they love on those teams.
01:57So, you know, I think it's like when we were early in the season, right,
02:03when we were probably exceeding expectations.
02:07My guess is that the fans were talking about us exceeding expectations
02:11and their love for Woody and CJ and these guys and not necessarily that.
02:15So, you know, we keep telling ourselves, hey, if we just focus on putting together a really good team
02:21over the long term and winning a bunch of games, I think the rest will take care of itself.
02:26So that's a really interesting answer because he didn't say, look, it hasn't been time to spend,
02:34but that time is coming, right?
02:36He didn't say, the question is basically, why should fans keep spending money when the owners don't?
02:43And he didn't say, well, this isn't like the owners are never going to spend,
02:46which is the answer I think Mike Rizzo often gave.
02:49It's not like these owners have never spent.
02:51Look at 2019 and the World Series and all the years before that.
02:53But he chose to say, payroll really doesn't matter that much, winning does.
03:00Fans gravitate toward winning, which I always talk about when people call in and they tell us,
03:04I'm going to stop going to the ballpark.
03:06I can't support this ownership group.
03:09My response to that is, fan how you want to fan.
03:11Do what you want to do.
03:12That's your prerogative.
03:13I'll see you when they're good again.
03:15You don't have to be here.
03:16This group's pretty smart.
03:18They're going to be super competitive.
03:19You saw that with their hands tied behind their back financially to some extent this year.
03:23And when they're good again, we'll see at the ballpark.
03:26But I didn't necessarily want to hear Paul Taboney say that as it pertains to, he said, payroll becomes less
03:32relevant.
03:33Like that is a bigger picture thought to me than just talking about the state of the 2026 Nationals.
03:39So the question basically is, you know, what do you say to fans that are looking at an organization that
03:45won't commit to payroll?
03:46And he goes, forget about payroll.
03:48Again, he's smart and he had a good way of answering the question, but that's, that tells you everything right
03:52there immediately.
03:53Because what payroll represents isn't this, because look at the Mets.
03:56You pay too much money and you don't win.
03:57It's an embarrassment.
03:58Everyone makes fun of you every day in the sport.
04:00You have the highest payroll and you lose a lot.
04:02Ha ha ha.
04:03Let's have a great time.
04:04Payroll represents commitment.
04:06You're asking me when that season ticket bill comes to give you money, money that I've earned.
04:10I'm giving it to you willingly with the understanding that there's an equal commitment from you.
04:15And if Taboney's point is, well, if we, you know, take this really different route and get there and we
04:20give you guys a bunch of wins, you won't care.
04:22Yeah, to a degree.
04:24But I'm excited to go see James Wood.
04:27Every fan, when, you know, casually bring up James Wood, you go, well, when are they going to trade him?
04:32Because of the track record.
04:33Because that's what they've done.
04:34They haven't offered the commitment to keep that winning sustained.
04:37This group is really smart and they'll find, like, if you gave everybody, we had to do this project my
04:41junior year of high school in physics.
04:43We were given $25 to build a catapult.
04:46You know who did a really good job?
04:47We were the smart kids.
04:48They took that $25.
04:49Mine, I got a C- and that was a gift because the thing damn near broke.
04:53I'm an idiot when it came to that sort of stuff.
04:55My buddy built a nomadic cannon and shot a tennis ball 300 yards.
04:59He won.
04:59He's an engineer.
05:00He's worth millions.
05:01The point is, I'm not.
05:03But if you gave everybody $100, they would do more with it than 80, 90, 100% of the teams.
05:09Yes.
05:09But that's not what the contest is.
05:10We live in a world where they don't need to only use $100.
05:13Of course.
05:14Of course not.
05:14But this goes back to my fear.
05:16And this, by the way, this answer does not assuage my fear.
05:18Yeah.
05:18I think this is what's happening.
05:19So my fear is that they want to be the Brewers and the Rays.
05:23And I want to be the Brewers and the Rays, too, with money spent.
05:26And it seems maybe more like the with money spent part is not something they completely subscribe to.
05:32That's kind of where I'm going here.
05:34Payroll becomes less relevant when you're winning.
05:37True.
05:38He then talks about there are teams around the sport that win, and no one talks about their payroll.
05:44They just talk about how good they are and how good their players are.
05:47Who's he talking about?
05:48He's talking about the Brewers, who, by the way, have the best record in the National League for a second
05:53straight year with no payroll.
05:55He's talking about the Rays, who somehow, in a division with Boston and New York and all the really good
06:01teams that spend a lot of money in the East, they win more often than they don't.
06:06They're in the playoffs more often than they're not.
06:08They're really, really well put together.
06:10But those teams have never won a championship.
06:13And I know it's hard to win a championship.
06:16The Yankees don't win championships anymore, either.
06:18The Mechs don't win championships.
06:20There's a lot of teams that don't win championships that spend money, too.
06:24But it is, in the same way that people, I was arguing with a buddy of mine who loves the
06:28Nats last night, about their new pitcher.
06:31Cruz comes in, he throws 101, he's got the best slider via some of the stuff metrics last night in
06:36baseball.
06:37He had not a good inning.
06:38He threw more balls than strikes, and he gave up a run.
06:41The game was tied.
06:41And I watch that, and I go, oh my god, they actually got a guy with some stuff in the
06:45back of the bullpen.
06:46He watched that, and he goes, this guy can't throw strikes, and he's terrible.
06:49Right?
06:49And I guess my point is, like, I think when it comes to a team like the Brewers and the
06:58Rays, and the fact that they do it right, and the fact that they're so good, that is awesome.
07:04But they haven't won.
07:06They haven't gotten across the finish line.
07:08It is easier.
07:09The result is still very, very difficult to get there.
07:13The other thing he said, by the way, I want to hit on this real quick, because you mentioned Wood
07:16and CJ, because that was in the answer.
07:19I forget exactly how he, get to that point of the answer and play that again.
07:22I forget exactly how he said it, but he's like, I'll bet you when we were good earlier this year
07:26and we were overachieving, everyone just talked about how awesome Woody and CJ are, and they weren't talking about our
07:31payroll.
07:31Right?
07:31That's effectively what he said.
07:33His point is, winning is what matters, payroll doesn't.
07:35Right.
07:37Because of your payroll, James Wood will not be here after this contract.
07:41Because of the payroll, if we're doing the payroll's not important, if that's your mantra, CJ Abrams is not here
07:47either.
07:48So you can't use them as the examples, you see what I'm saying, of why the overachieving a team is
07:53overachieving and why it's okay to not have much of a payroll.
07:57Now maybe his point is, next it's not CJ, it's Coy James from your system, and next it's not James
08:02Wood, it's some other outfielder we've unearthed in a trade.
08:06But living in a world where you don't have a significant payroll, you cannot keep James Wood, and you cannot
08:13keep CJ Abrams, you trade Abrams this offseason, and then Wood luckily is still around for a few more years
08:19because he's still in his infancy, but you eventually trade him too.
08:22You know, I think fans aren't talking about payroll as much as they are about them winning a bunch of
08:26games and the players that they love on those teams.
08:29So, you know, I think it's like when we were early in the season, right, when we were probably exceeding
08:37expectations.
08:39My guess is that the fans were talking about us exceeding expectations and their love for Woody and CJ.
08:46James Wood is on a trajectory to be, I don't know what it's going to be at that time, because
08:52the CBA is going to complicate this, but let's just say a 60-some million dollar a year player, 60
08:58-65 million.
08:59Kyle Tucker got 60 this offseason, which is the dumbest thing that's ever happened.
09:02That's insane.
09:03And it's not a real thing, it's just the Dodgers doing what they want to do.
09:06But, like, otherwise, the highest paid position player who's not a pitcher right now is Juan Soto at around $50
09:11million a year.
09:12So if you forecast that several seasons, not knowing what's going to happen in the CBA, James Wood could be
09:17a 60-65 million dollar a year guy.
09:19If you're the Brewers, you can't have them.
09:22If you're the Rays, you can't have them.
09:24So if you're telling me payroll doesn't matter, you can't keep players like that.
09:29That's not what I want to be.
09:31That is not what anyone signed up for here.
09:35If you want to do that, respectfully, and I love Paul Taboni, and I love this front office, they're going
09:40to win a lot of baseball games.
09:41These are my guys, I'm in.
09:43Go do that in Miami.
09:45If you want to do the thing here, where you act like the Brewers 93% of the time, and
09:50then you also spend $40 million on an ace,
09:54and $26 million on a bat that's going to hit you 30 home runs and drive in 100, now we
09:59got something.
10:00That's why I brought you here.
10:01When we look at the Rays and the Brewers, for example, teams that we often cite when it comes to
10:06this, the active player,
10:08the guy that plays Major League Baseball for Washington this year, that makes the most money is Caber Ruiz.
10:13If Trevor Williams comes back when he does, he'll be their highest paid player at $7 million.
10:17Now he's back, right?
10:19So, I misspoke.
10:21The guy that was playing for them mostly is Caber Ruiz, now that Williams is back.
10:25There are six players on the Brewers that make a lot more money than Caber Ruiz does.
10:30You look at the Rays, there are six players that make more money than Caber Ruiz.
10:34Their highest paid player is Steven Strasburg, who hasn't played in years, and their second highest paid is Trevor Williams.
10:39There are only a handful of guys that have a second comma in their payroll.
10:45Payroll, like, it's easy to say payroll doesn't matter, wins do, 100%.
10:50But he's the same guy that when he was hired, and again, it sounds like I'm being critical, but I'm
10:54a big Timoney fan as well.
10:55But he talked about going to the games and having kids grow up going and seeing their players and guys
11:00that they really like.
11:01It's easy to say winning's the only thing that matters.
11:03Sure, there's also something else that matters too, where it's like, I'm not getting my kid any jersey of any
11:09player
11:09because it's going to be a short shelf life while they're here.
11:12Until somebody is signed beyond their first arbitration year, it's not a great investment to go spend money on an
11:20authentic jersey.
11:21They're going to sign Daylon Lyle, maybe, or somebody like that, right?
11:23It's not going to be Wood, it's not going to be Abrams, it's not going to be a Boris guy
11:27or one of the big agency guys that doesn't do that.
11:30But this group does want to sign guys, I believe that.
11:33It's just going to be, you've got to find the right guys to do it.
11:36And by right, I mean the guys that are willing to do it, that are good enough to do it
11:39with.
11:40The problem was, like, Kbert Ruiz left the Boris Corporation to go to a different agency to sign that extension,
11:46then went back to Boris, I'm pretty sure is the way that works.
11:48I think that's how it went down.
11:49I know he was not with Boris when he did, I think he's back with Boris now.
11:52And I know that Boris would not have had him do that deal.
11:55But Kbert Ruiz was probably looking at it going, am I sure I'm ever going to make $50 million as
12:00a major leaguer?
12:01This was to Boney when asked about the possibility of upping payroll next season, which I think is important.
12:06There's so much going on that you guys don't see and that the fan base doesn't see that, quite honestly,
12:13I probably haven't talked enough about, right?
12:15So, you know, being able to develop guys at the major league level the way that we have,
12:24that doesn't come without a cost.
12:26It doesn't come without investment.
12:27And then our player development group too, like, you know, going from whatever we were coming into the year,
12:35the 20th ranked farm system or 23rd or wherever we were up until the top, call it two or three
12:42or four,
12:43wherever we are, that doesn't come without real investment and doing it right, so to speak, in the minor leagues.
12:51And so I think that the problems are you don't, you know, it's tough for fans to kind of realize
12:57those returns right away.
13:00And so while we have realized some of them in the big leagues with guys that are major league players,
13:06that's really fun.
13:07That's been great.
13:08But I think some of this is there's going to be some lag time when you see some of these
13:13minor league players come up
13:14and, you know, they're really good versions of themselves.
13:18I think that's where a lot of this is going to shine through.
13:21That answer was maybe more alarming.
13:25If the question, the sheet you gave me, Dad, is that when asked about the possibility of upping payroll next
13:31season.
13:32So if the question was actually, are you going to spend more money next year?
13:35And that's the answer.
13:36That's scary.
13:38Because he said no in a lot of words.
13:41Now, he is 1,000% right.
13:45And this is where he's done an unbelievable job and his staff has crushed it.
13:48He says there's so much going on you don't see and maybe we need to talk more about that.
13:52So I think strategically he goes back to the well and he's like,
13:55we need to start getting the word out that we're spending an S ton of money on R&D.
13:58That we got the trajectory machines, not only in the big leagues here, but in West Palm Beach and at
14:03the AAA level.
14:04And next year we're going to have him at AA and at single A.
14:06Yeah, it's the most cost effective thing you can do is you spend, I'm making up the numbers, a million
14:10bucks on a machine to turn a $500,000 player into a $5 million valued player.
14:15That's a better ROI than going to spend $30 million on a star.
14:19I really think this is how they got the job.
14:22Like I think, look at how little you're going to have to spend and we'll produce much better results for
14:26you.
14:26Data investments, tech investments, staffing is way better.
14:29I think not only do they have, like look at the major league level, their actual coaches are better than
14:34the last coaches.
14:35But at every level, they're better instructors.
14:38They're sharper.
14:38These are people that were at driveline and doing the very new school stuff that the last staff scoffed at.
14:44These pejoratives, like driveline?
14:46Are you kidding me?
14:47Those nerds?
14:48I mean, those are the people that are kind of like running affiliates and stuff in the past, right?
14:53And are like coaching instruction people within the system.
14:57So all of that costs money.
14:59I believe, I was told, I haven't looked this up, but I think they have a way bigger staff of
15:03people, hands-on players in the minor leagues.
15:05All that costs money.
15:06That's not wrong.
15:07But again, the question was, are you going to spend more money on major league talent?
15:12And not only did he not say, yes, we'd like to, it sounded like the answer was, no, no, no,
15:18no, guys.
15:19The minor leaguers are coming.
15:20Don't worry.
15:21And they're going to be a lot better because we're spending money developing them.
15:25Which, when you're as close as it feels like they are, is not what anybody wants to hear.
15:30No.
15:31The budget comes out of the same spot.
15:33In other words, you've got $100 million to make your baseball team.
15:36That's actually, that'd be lofty.
15:37You've got $20 million to make your baseball team.
15:39How are you going to spend it?
15:40Well, $14 million is going to be on player development.
15:43And the rest of it is, you know, we're catching the scraps.
15:46Trevor Williams.
15:46Yeah, we're going to go see if we can find three more Curtis Meads out of the pile.
15:50When you spend $3 million on a pitcher, you get Miles Michaelis.
15:53When you spend $7 million on a pitcher, you get Zach Littell.
15:55They can have decent outings where they go five innings and fool some people from time to time.
15:59They're veterans with some guile.
16:01But they're also going to have four 970 ERAs after a bunch of starts.
16:04That's how that works.
16:05So you either develop really good arms, and this is the plan.
16:09Again, the Sikoras and the Susanas and the Paralysis and whoever else.
16:13Or you spend money on those guys.
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