- 17 hours ago
John and Laura-Lynn examine the historical and psychological roots behind ecstatic manifestations in modern charismatic movements. Tracing the progression from early Pentecostalism and the Latter Rain revival through the Voice of Healing campaigns and into the New Apostolic Reformation, they analyze how suggestibility, music, group dynamics, and “impartation” theology shaped contemporary revival culture.
The discussion explores historical controversies surrounding figures connected to healing revivals, the development of repeatable revival formulas, and how emotional escalation in large gatherings can influence belief and behavior. Rather than focusing only on present-day personalities, the conversation asks deeper questions about doctrine, mass psychology, accountability, and what distinguishes authentic Christian worship from manufactured spiritual experience.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
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The discussion explores historical controversies surrounding figures connected to healing revivals, the development of repeatable revival formulas, and how emotional escalation in large gatherings can influence belief and behavior. Rather than focusing only on present-day personalities, the conversation asks deeper questions about doctrine, mass psychology, accountability, and what distinguishes authentic Christian worship from manufactured spiritual experience.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Laura Lynn Tyler Thompson, host of Laura Lynn
00:46Live.
00:47Laura, you can see I'm bubbling over with excitement.
00:50It's been so long since we've talked.
00:52I want to say it might have even been before Thanksgiving since we have talked last.
00:57And it's been a long, long time.
00:59Yeah, I could be off, but I do know that we had them scheduled ahead.
01:03So it's been months and months.
01:06We had chaos.
01:06But in my world of chaos, it's all, you know, home stuff.
01:10But you have uncovered all kinds of new things to talk through.
01:14So I wanted to talk through the latest.
01:17It's kind of crazy.
01:18You sent it to me.
01:19And while I was waiting, I was reading through this.
01:21I'll let you introduce it.
01:23But oh, my gosh.
01:25You know, I got my credentials removed a little while ago from one of these NAR types because
01:32they were upset.
01:34You know, I was credentialed with the Independent Assemblies of God in Canada.
01:39And my husband and I live on the border.
01:41We're American and Canadian.
01:43And I got it taken away because they said, you're not allowed to talk badly about other
01:48ministers.
01:49What if they're predators?
01:50Because that's actually the people I'm actually speaking badly about is that there's a problem
01:54in the church and there's these predators.
01:56Well, I had three meetings with them and they said, you know, you're not allowed to talk
02:00bad.
02:00And I didn't comply.
02:02So I got this removed.
02:04So this guy puts out a big, he puts out a long thing just praising basically the NAR group
02:13that is problematic, I think, here in Canada.
02:17So last night, I, you know, I did a show and, you know, Heidi Baker, she's been around a long
02:22time.
02:23And this is why I was asking you, like, tell me about the roots of this, you know, rolling
02:30around on the floor, shaking your head, acting almost demon possessed, and that that is somehow
02:36the spirituality that, you know, we aspire to.
02:40So Heidi Baker, a very well-known person, Stacey Campbell, very well-known person.
02:47I mean, there's just videos, they just shake their head.
02:50Like, it's almost inhuman, the way that it's happening.
02:54So that was my thought.
02:55I thought, when I talked to John, I want to hear about the early manifestations.
03:00They call it ecstatic worship now, you know?
03:03Darrell Bock They called it that back then as well.
03:05That's the funny part.
03:06So what you sent me, I read through it.
03:09And as you know, I'm not that much interested in the current, the present, because it's all
03:13just chaos to me, but whenever I see it happening and it relates back to history, I get my excitement
03:19goes up because I can relate to this.
03:21But to unpack it even further, let's first talk Assemblies of God, Independent Assemblies
03:28of God.
03:29I recently, in fact, just this week it came out.
03:32I just recently did a deep dive on just the Assemblies of God in general, because the
03:39Assemblies platformed a lot of the Latter Rain ministers, so much so that it split the
03:44Assemblies of God in half.
03:45And on the one half was the Assemblies of God proper, which denounced Latter Rain and
03:51said, this is evil.
03:52And they listed all of the many things that you can read it.
03:55And in fact, if you go to my website, I've got a copy.
03:57They denounced it.
03:58But yet, in their past, there's a little bit of sketchiness there, so I was diving into
04:03that.
04:04When they split off, the Independent Assemblies of God was formed, and they accepted it.
04:09So in one half, and they listed very clearly what is unbiblical and why we're rejecting
04:15it, that's the proper Assemblies of God.
04:18They denounced it.
04:19Independent fully accepted it, and they accepted just the things you're describing.
04:25So, not to go too far with it yet, but let me just give you a broad overview, because
04:29it'll make the wheels start turning in your head.
04:34William Branham's mentor, Roy Davis, we've talked about him.
04:37He was a scoundrel.
04:38One of the things he did when he came into my hometown of Jeffersonville, Indiana, was
04:43he posed as a converted spiritualist.
04:46And in the era, that was very popular.
04:48We've talked about this some, I think.
04:50There was one of the largest spiritualist camps in the nation, wasn't far from here,
04:55Camp Chesterfield, I think it was.
04:57And we have evidence that Branham went there, likely with Davis.
05:01But that was the platform.
05:03I'm a converted spiritualist.
05:04I know how it works.
05:06And I know how to rightly divide the truth from the error in what they're doing.
05:10That's kind of how this played out.
05:12So they introduced elements of spiritualism into Christianity.
05:16At the same time, they also accepted, because it was Pentecostalism and it was near Kentucky
05:24and Ohio, they accepted, apparently, the snake-handling, poison-drinking doctrines of that sect of Pentecostalism.
05:35What they were trying to claim was that if you were in the real religion, the real Christianity, not the
05:42false Christianity,
05:43you could see signs, wonders, miracles, unusual things, unusual happenings, spiritualism, all of the above.
05:51And they started using different techniques.
05:54Some of these techniques, I've studied them out.
05:57They're not limited to charismatic movement, Pentecostalism, NAR, and that's where people get a little bit tripped up.
06:05They think this is a true sign of God if you can do these weird things that they're doing.
06:10But it's actually techniques of psychology that exist in many different religions around the world.
06:15One of the techniques, which I think this is where your wheels will start spinning,
06:20humans are highly suggestible, and there's an element, I think it's called social contagion.
06:27There's a name for this.
06:29But basically, you get a large group of people.
06:32You can have one person who's a plant or a fake, and they can drop on the floor.
06:37And then everybody, they're in this anticipation.
06:39So the speaker walks out.
06:41This is how it works.
06:41The speaker walks out and says, you're about to receive.
06:44And everybody, their senses get heightened.
06:47The music starts swelling.
06:49Remember, in the old days, they had the organs, so the organs would start softly playing.
06:54And the people would get up into this spiritual ecstasy.
06:57And then when somebody were to fall or shout or scream or do something like this,
07:03that anxiety starts to form inside your body.
07:06And the leash says, more, Lord, more, Lord.
07:09And this grows and grows and swells in the population of the crowd until people actually fall out,
07:15and they start shaking, and they do all kinds of weird things.
07:18And this is controllable.
07:19It's the same in the category of psychology that it's happening in.
07:24It's the same hypnotic response as hypnotism.
07:27That's what I was going to say.
07:28Hypnotic.
07:30It really does seem to be because the more that the leader gets crazy and starts manifesting and twitching and
07:37turning
07:38and, you know, suggesting that this is, you know, I'm imparting the anointing to you.
07:44Kenneth Hagen did it.
07:46Now, it's funny because some of the leaders, they don't want to act crazy.
07:50They just love to get the whole crowd whipped up.
07:53There's others like Heidi Baker.
07:55She will completely be, you know, twitching, turning, falling over, like acting drunk, I guess, in the spirit.
08:04Then she gets the whole crowd, like in the one clip we showed, to put, you know, an imagined crown
08:12onto your neighbor.
08:13I don't think that's even godly.
08:16The word says not to touch each other.
08:19Like, you should be very careful of that.
08:21And so here they are putting these crowns.
08:25Everyone's touching each other.
08:26She begins praying for people.
08:28This guy starts writhing on the ground, completely demonized.
08:32And he's writhing like a snake.
08:35And she's acting as if this is just a great manifestation of God's glory.
08:40I mean, I am done.
08:42Now, Kenneth Hagen, and a lot of people love Kenneth Hagen,
08:45but we showed a clip a while back where he walks through the crowd and he says,
08:49I can impart the anointing to you.
08:51And when I do, oh, all kinds of crazy things will happen.
08:53You might start laughing.
08:55You might start, you know, singing.
08:58So this guy, he goes along, he's playing air guitar, you know, and he's up on the seat.
09:03You know, and Kenneth Hagen says, yes, Lord, amen, more Lord, more Lord.
09:08So, and, and, and so this is, you know, back in the days with Glad Tidings being part of the
09:15Ladder Rain, they did have the Holy Rollers.
09:17They called them that.
09:18And I only heard about it, but apparently like one guy just, you know, would, would really be
09:23quite famous for just rolling, you know, across the floor and all that.
09:26So, um, uh, then let me tell you something else we played this week.
09:32So Mother Han in North Korea, um, and this all relates to the old, because we have the
09:39roots of all of this, um, this Christianity that is mixed with something that is not Christianity.
09:47It is not, it is, um, Hinduism, like, you know, this, uh, Kundalini spirit.
09:54So we play this clip of, um, these people worshiping mother, uh, mother of God.
10:00The only begotten daughter of God, Mother Han, she's now currently in, in prison and Greg
10:07Locke's over there trying to say that she's in there for, you know, religious discrimination.
10:11What a joke.
10:12They're probably getting paid off to be anywhere near her.
10:16And, uh, and so, um, she's actually in jail for embezzlement.
10:20So it's a big joke, but this entire, uh, big stadium full of people is singing.
10:27Sounds exactly like Christian worship music.
10:30I mean, exactly.
10:32When I first heard it, I thought it was, I thought it was like Bethel.
10:37So they're singing la la la.
10:39And then it's like, mother hand, you're so glorious.
10:42People are crying and they're just singing to mother hand.
10:47It's, I was like, Oh Lord God, help us all.
10:51It's an infiltration.
10:52Like we don't know what's real anymore.
10:55If you have a newspapers.com subscription, you can easily go back and verify what I'm
11:00about to say.
11:00But there's a point in time that if you were in this movement and you, there was that
11:06separation, right?
11:07You had those who denounced it, those who were in favor of it, those who were in favor
11:10of it would advertise in their Sunday papers for their Sunday services with signs following.
11:15We, we have the signs following and what this is the, the last chapter of, or the last, uh,
11:24yeah, chapter of the book of Mark, Mark 16, where it says, these signs shall follow them
11:28that believe.
11:29They took that and they put more emphasis on that passage than the whole rest of the
11:34New Testament.
11:36So Pentecostalism, if you study its history, it's a little odd.
11:40But the, the speaking in tongues, for example, biblically, there is a precedent for speaking
11:45in tongues, right?
11:47And people would, according to the Bible, if you believe the Bible, it says that there
11:51are people who heard the other language in their own, in their native tongue.
11:55There's a purpose for it.
11:56They could hear the gospel, even to those people that they did not have a way to communicate
12:00with, according to the Bible.
12:03Charles Fox Parham started to say that whenever he got into this ecstasy and the people did
12:11what the Pentecostals call speaking in tongues, he started to say that this was the same thing.
12:16This is exactly what they're talking about here.
12:18And we're going to train missionaries who can speak in tongues and they're going to go
12:22to China and they're going to convert all of China to Christianity.
12:26So he trained these people to do this.
12:28The problem is the language that they were speaking wasn't another tongue.
12:32It was, in fact, if you study Kundalini, if you study Hinduism, you can see this is kind
12:38of widespread.
12:39They're doing the same exact things.
12:41So these missionaries go to China and not a single person there can understand what they're
12:45saying.
12:46So they barely survive.
12:48You know, you can't ask for food if you can't speak the language.
12:51So they came back and there was a complete and utter failure.
12:54And that was a critical milestone in Pentecostalism.
12:58However, as this began to spread throughout the United States, because most people weren't
13:04familiar with the rest of the world and other religions, they thought this must be of God
13:09because this is so unusual that we've never seen this before.
13:13Interesting part is this wasn't the first time in Christianity that speaking in tongues
13:17had existed.
13:18You can go back to the 1800s and find it as well.
13:21But there was a purpose for it in the Bible.
13:24It doesn't match the purpose for it in the in the Pentecostal charismatic world.
13:30But when you tie it to what they're doing now with Hagen, it's actually so far worse.
13:35Think about.
13:36So we're talking about hypnotism, trances, this kind of thing.
13:39When you think of hypnotism, you think of the guy who's swinging the bracelet or the watch
13:44or whatever, well, what this is doing, this is putting you into a trance and it is one
13:48mechanism for doing this.
13:50There are many different mechanisms for doing this.
13:53You can also have subtle trances that happen.
13:56Some of this can be done through worship music.
13:58So these guys have actually figured out over time what types of music brings people to the
14:05state where they're maybe not in a trance, but they're highly suggestible.
14:09And that's the key.
14:10If you can bring people to a highly suggestible state, whatever you tell them, as far as doctrine,
14:15they're going to believe it.
14:16They're going to turn off critical thinking.
14:18They might fall out into a trance and wiggle on the floor like a snake.
14:22John Wimber said that there were people barking like dogs in the revivals.
14:26And he kind of washed his hands and walked away and said, this is crazy.
14:30Yet at the same time, it was his worship music that actually got them in the state to begin with.
14:35So this is this weird, vicious cycle that keeps going.
14:39Kind of like the Toronto Blessing, you know, where it just got crazy.
14:43And, you know, I have some respect for John Arnott in that he did kind of believe that it was
14:51going off.
14:52But at the same, he felt like, I don't want to stop this move of God.
14:57And he's not really the type that seemed to be trying to get them all.
15:02But something kind of clicked.
15:03And people's lives were touched.
15:05They say that they received something and had an experience and an encounter with God.
15:09But some ended up clucking like chickens.
15:11So, for instance, speaking of being suggestible.
15:16So we've got this Todd Bentley.
15:18I showed his commissioning.
15:20So this is from 16 years ago.
15:21His commissioning thing.
15:23It's got all the Peter Wagner there, you know, Rick Joyner, Bill, Bill Johnson, John Arnott.
15:32I believe it's, yeah, it's Stacey Campbell because she did her thing and gave a prophetic word about how great
15:39that Todd Bentley would be.
15:41None of this is real.
15:42So I show it all.
15:43But so here you've got a guy.
15:45He comes to the to the stage to be commissioned.
15:48He has tattoos all over his neck and his entire body.
15:52And somehow every all the bigwigs are behind him saying that they've never seen glory like he brings and prophesying
15:59all of them that this is going to be the next.
16:01I mean, now he starts doing the jerking, right?
16:04His his head is going and, you know, and and then he, of course, falls down and continues to jerk.
16:10And this, of course, is the manifestation of God.
16:13The fruit of all of this, he leaves the wife that they actually brought up on the commissioning stage, eventually
16:19leaves her for the nanny.
16:21Eventually, you see the nanny, now his wife.
16:24She's manifesting on stage because she's hanging out with Stacey Campbell and Heidi Baker and all of them.
16:30So she's doing the thing and and hissing like a literal snake.
16:36This has gone off.
16:38And I just said last night, I'm done.
16:40Like, I'm putting it all out there.
16:42And my comments are like, this has to be exposed.
16:45This has to be exposed.
16:45And it really does.
16:47When people talk about Heidi Baker, like this guy, Bill Prankard, who took my credentials away for speaking against, you
16:55know, other ministers.
16:57This guy is completely silent in the face of predators in our Canadian ministry culture.
17:06He knows them.
17:07He won't bring any accusation against them.
17:10The board won't.
17:11The the accountability group that was the oversight committee that overlooked everything I call them.
17:17They won't bring accountability to a predator in our midst.
17:20And he's mad at me for sounding an alarm so that there will not be more victims.
17:24So all of this suggestibility you're talking about.
17:27And I want to ask you this, John, because there's a certain type of of minister that will shut that
17:35down because it doesn't feel right.
17:37And they'll go, hey, I have seen ministers say, listen, we're not.
17:40No, we're having like someone starts screaming and writhing and they tell them to stop it.
17:44Get up.
17:45Demon, get out.
17:45Let's move on with ordered worship.
17:49Then there's the minister type who goes, OK, I can capitalize on this.
17:53They're the used car salesmen of ministries.
17:55They have something in their heart that's so evil that they will take advantage of everything.
18:00They know they'll get a bigger offering because people are in this frenzy.
18:03And now let's take an offering.
18:04And you're so frenzied.
18:05You'll just, you know, give way more than you thought you ever would because you're having this experience.
18:10Absolutely.
18:11I mean, think about how hypnotism works.
18:13Whenever the stage hypnotist will hypnotize a person, they'll put clear boundaries on what they do while they're hypnotized.
18:20But picture if they didn't put those boundaries.
18:23Say that they wanted to say, do something like, OK, bring two people on stage.
18:27I'm going to hypnotize you.
18:28Now I want you to do something really bad to this person next to you.
18:31And the person goes over and slaps them in the face.
18:35But he didn't put boundaries on that.
18:37What if the next guy deep inside, there's something wrong with him psychologically.
18:41And he comes and pulls out a knife and stabs him.
18:44Well, there's no boundaries on that hypnotism.
18:46And they're in this state of trance where they have no control over their bodies.
18:50The same thing is happening in religion.
18:52But they put the boundaries on it where it's a boundary of worship.
18:56But we don't care how you worship.
18:57You can bark like a dog.
18:58You can cluck like a chicken.
19:00And whenever people see this, because they're so unfamiliar with how psychology works,
19:05they don't really think about what they're doing, and they join into it.
19:09Now when the whole group joins into it, you have a group psychology that's happening.
19:14And the problem really comes down to the fact that with no boundaries,
19:18you can make the people do whatever you want.
19:20Then, like you said, the minister who says, no, this just doesn't feel right.
19:25Let's don't do this.
19:26Inwardly, he knows that the people are out of control.
19:29That's why he's saying this.
19:30The one who wants to make a lot of money thinks, oh, my gosh,
19:33these people aren't in control of their pocketbooks.
19:36Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started,
19:40or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,
19:45charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
19:50You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
19:55william-branham.org.
19:57On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
20:02Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,
20:06with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
20:11You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
20:17If you want to contribute to the cause,
20:20you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.
20:24And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
20:30watching.
20:30On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
20:35This thing you were talking about, this sort of mass psychosis,
20:39this hypnotism that can go across an entire group,
20:42because all of a sudden everybody is being profiled and highlighted.
20:46The cameras are on the people that are manifesting,
20:50and that is celebrated.
20:52And so, you know, within these vulnerable people is that aspect,
20:56well, I want that.
20:57I want to be celebrated.
20:59You know, I want to be a part of this move.
21:02Like, how come I don't exactly feel this?
21:05People will literally admit to this later.
21:07Then they'll admit that they fall down just to be part of the group.
21:11I've literally heard people say this.
21:13You know, you just decide you'll just fall because you should.
21:18And this is just sowing into a false narrative of who God is.
21:24And I just have this feeling that because of your work, John,
21:28you have set a foundation of exposing the roots of this.
21:34Exposing.
21:35I love.
21:36I mentioned you a fair bit on my show now,
21:39and I talk about William Branham, the truth about him,
21:43because he is idolized in Canada.
21:46He is idolized in the States.
21:48People still think, you know,
21:49that they would like to have that anointing and that power of William Branham
21:54to raise the dead and all of this stuff.
21:56You know, they don't have any idea about who he traveled with
22:00and the homosexual conglomerate, you know, around him.
22:06And all of this, when you begin revealing the truth,
22:09then people are like, oh, my goodness.
22:11And folks are actually leaving the church more in a way
22:16because those churches have to fall.
22:19There's something falling right now.
22:21And, you know, John, your truth is a large part of it.
22:24It has to fall, everybody.
22:26We don't have to be scared that the false church falls.
22:29We don't have to be scared of that.
22:30It's got to just literally be decimated.
22:32It's got to get so embarrassed and so outed
22:36that we don't have this nonsense anymore,
22:39that the real purity of who God truly is
22:42is going to be what is allowed to be magnified and glorified,
22:47not this nonsense.
22:49You know, and the funny part about all of that that you just said,
22:52they really don't actually care about Branham.
22:55What they care about more is the formula that he created.
22:58In fact, if you listen to any of them, they'll say,
23:00well, he went astray.
23:01We don't care about him.
23:02He went astray.
23:02But look at the formula that he had.
23:05And they're talking about the years that are his worst.
23:08I mean, he started out with the head of the KKK.
23:11How much worse can you get?
23:13And the guy was – some of the things that you've described criminally,
23:18this guy was worse.
23:19I'll just say it like that because YouTube might censor.
23:22But it was bad, bad stuff.
23:24But they cared about the formula.
23:27And it wasn't just Branham.
23:29Gordon Lindsay and Branham, that combination,
23:32were really powerful.
23:33Lindsay, the man who founded Christ for the Nations Institute,
23:37he was part of the revival tour, the Voice of Healing campaigns.
23:41For a period of time, the Voice of Healing revivals
23:44and the Lateran revivals merged, and they became one and the same.
23:48Oral Roberts came out of the Voice of Healing revivals.
23:51Big names came out of this.
23:53But they had created a formula that brings people into that ecstatic state.
23:57And they realized that there's a lot of money to be made here.
24:01Newspapers talk about boxes of money that they take out of the revivals.
24:05Once you have that formula, now it's a repeatable formula.
24:09And where I'm headed with this, you mentioned Todd Bentley.
24:12I don't know if you know this or not.
24:14Bentley claimed that he had Branham's angel on the stage with him
24:17when he was doing those revivals that you're talking about.
24:20The angel comes to me about seven days before I'm commissioned into full-time ministry.
24:24Fourteen-foot-tall angel.
24:26William Branham in 1946 has the angel of the Lord visit him.
24:30The winds of change.
24:32The angel of the winds of change.
24:34He said, Branham's angel's here, and he named the angel Emma.
24:38Not knowing that Branham had a male angel.
24:42Branham would say, my angel's out on the platform,
24:44and he would always say that angels was male because he was very misogynistic.
24:48Bentley did not even care enough about Branham to study and find out the gender of the dang angel.
24:55Well, that's sick.
24:58You know, I'm going to make a note of that and see if I can find that to put up
25:03because this is the sadness.
25:06And you see, some people won't use this hypnotic, you know, protocol on people because they're good people and they
25:17would never do that.
25:18But some people like Todd Bentley, and you talk about the money, they got buckets and buckets and buckets.
25:24They made millions and millions of dollars while having this Lakeland revival, so-called.
25:35And oodles of money is coming in and all this manifest stuff.
25:38And I have Branham's angel.
25:41What a load of crock, you know.
25:43I'm so done with it.
25:45I'm on a mission to destroy it.
25:48I'm on a mission to expose it.
25:50I will be a wrecking ball.
25:52I used to sit when I was on 700 Club.
25:54I used to tell Brian Warren, my co-host.
25:56I said, I just want to be a wrecking ball against the kingdom of darkness.
26:00And he would always laugh, you know, because I'm kind of tiny and not that intimidating.
26:05I'm intimidating now.
26:06I don't know what happened.
26:07And meeting you was part of that process.
26:10And I'm so grateful because, you know, you explaining some of the history enlightened my eyes to what the false
26:18side is.
26:19The enemy always comes as an angel of light.
26:22And he comes in and he tries to destroy and get in like a little leaven, leavens the whole loaf.
26:29You know, once you got a little bit of that nonsense in there, well, now you're just destroying everything.
26:35And that's what they've done.
26:36And I've said to I said to a guy recently this week, I said, well, I'm never going to be
26:41a big, successful evangelist.
26:43I'm never going to be a big, successful minister of the gospel, bringing in millions.
26:47I can't because I can't do it.
26:49I don't have it in me.
26:50I don't have that personality that wants people writhing on the floor so I can take a big offering so
26:56that I can have big manifestations.
26:57And these sickos, these guys, they are deviants in their minds.
27:03And they are able to do it just the way like, you know, there's car salesmen and then there's car
27:09salesmen.
27:10And a really good on the books car salesman actually just has no empathy for who he's selling that car
27:18that they don't need to.
27:19You know, a good car salesman will go, you know what, this sounds like it's over your budget.
27:24So I'm not going to show you the Rolls Royce over here.
27:27Here's an economical car that your family can afford.
27:30I would be that guy, you know.
27:32Absolutely.
27:33You know, you mentioned people coming out of the church left and right today.
27:37It is happening.
27:38It's true.
27:39And I've been through this.
27:41So there's a problem with it.
27:43And it is very, for me, it's a very personal thing.
27:45This is very, very difficult.
27:47I actually don't talk about it much because it's a personal journey.
27:50And if you talk about it publicly for people like you and I, I actually, when I started talking about
27:57my new faith, my new beliefs, I had cult members who would show up at our church to try to
28:03pressure us.
28:04So I've learned not to go too far with public about my private life.
28:09However, all of that said, it was difficult for this one reason.
28:13The version of God that they've taught you is a false God.
28:16The version of the religion that they've taught you is a false religion.
28:20The version of worship that they've taught you is a hypnotic, psychologically strategic type of worship.
28:28It's not true worship of God.
28:30So the problem that I had when I left, I told everybody that when I left, I'm remaining Christian.
28:36I'm just leaving this false thing.
28:38And all of my family, all of my friends, most of my family and friends shunned me.
28:43And never, some of them I've never talked to again.
28:46They just won't keep contact.
28:49Even though I had left to remain Christian, it was so important to them that I keep that type of
28:55religion that they didn't care if I followed Christ or not.
28:58What they cared about, did you follow this type of religion?
29:01So the religion itself has become a God.
29:03That's really the bottom line here.
29:06Then I started to relearn Christianity, relearn what it is.
29:10What does it mean to be a Christian?
29:12I read the Bible over and over.
29:13I've talked about this with you.
29:15But there was still a problem.
29:17The way that they have done it is a multi-tiered doctrinal error.
29:23You start with a false foundation.
29:24You build something on top of that foundation and something else and something else.
29:29Well, by the end of it, it's like you can take the top layer off, but you've still got another
29:34layer to go.
29:35And like peeling an onion, you can keep peeling and peeling layers, and it takes a long time to get
29:40to the core.
29:41I got about, you know, in my stack of layers, I got about halfway through, and I realized this could
29:47take the rest of my life to try to figure out what is Christianity.
29:51I chose the opposite path.
29:53I said, okay, blank slate.
29:55I know nothing about Christianity.
29:57Tell me.
29:58And I'll remember the look on the pastor's face when I said this.
30:01He was so confused.
30:03What in the world are you talking about, John?
30:05I said, okay, so Jesus had a virgin birth.
30:08Why do we believe this?
30:09And I knew some of the answers to the questions, but I wanted to, like, relearn it from the mind
30:15of a child.
30:16So I went literally back to the mind of a child.
30:18I had to relearn everything, and I have come to the conclusion it will probably take me the rest of
30:24my life to relearn everything, but I don't care.
30:28The God that I took away was not real.
30:30It was a false God.
30:32People who go through this type of religion, the longer you're in it, the longer you're in it, the longer
30:38it sets you back from being an actual Christian.
30:41I think that's really neat the way that you did that.
30:45Maybe we all need to get to just relearning, and the key thing that you said is, what does the
30:50Bible have to say about it?
30:52Why do we believe in a virgin birth?
30:54Because the Word of God, you know, says these things, and maybe if it's not in the Bible, that's when
31:03we know we shouldn't be doing stupid stuff,
31:06and we shouldn't be following stupid leaders that are telling us to take a crown off your head and build
31:11a crown upon a crown upon a crown.
31:13Now put it on your neighbor's head.
31:16You know, like even the act of touch is, you know, that's a very personal thing.
31:21That's a very, that appeals to a certain part of a human being.
31:27This is not anything that God asked you to do.
31:31It said, the Word of God says, lay, not to lay your hands suddenly on anyone, to be careful.
31:39There's something you need to be careful in that.
31:42So when you get in a church service where someone's telling them to, I've even been in church services where
31:48they're saying, okay, like for fun, you know, massage the guy's back in front of you.
31:52I don't know this guy from Adam.
31:54He could be completely demonized.
31:57He's nothing that I should be touching.
32:00And, you know, they think it's funny.
32:01That's not funny.
32:02It's actually really wrong, just on a base level.
32:06And then when they start using it to get people into a frenzy, all kinds of things.
32:12So now you're, you're being touched.
32:14Someone's putting a crown on your head.
32:15It sounds so spiritual.
32:17And pretty soon people are writhing on the floor and then it's being glorified as if this is correct.
32:23Like it's all a pile of nonsense.
32:25And, you know, because of your courage to come out with all of this, I am being very bold.
32:32I'm talking about Paul Cain and his bad, bad example of Christianity.
32:37Bob Jones, last night on the show, we did a little clip on Bob Jones.
32:43And can I say, like they say exactly what he did out loud.
32:48Because people know Bob violated a couple of women, you know, that we know of.
32:54Maybe more.
32:55We don't know.
32:56We don't know there's not more victims.
32:57It's just, just because nobody else came forward.
33:00But, but what we did know was kept silenced.
33:04So here's what's changing.
33:06Because of courageous work like yours and truth tellers like myself and Mike Winger,
33:12I thank God for him that he exposed Sean Bowles.
33:16Do you know what?
33:16This was probably going on way back.
33:18If there, if William Branham is in a company of these men,
33:25well, what might have been going on behind the scenes?
33:28Well, Sean Bowles, he's the modern day guy.
33:31You know, getting his false prophecies off of Facebook as he literally gives people,
33:36you know, details so that they believe him.
33:38This is like not talked about till Mike Winger brings it out.
33:42But all of them knew Bethel, Chris Vallotton, you know,
33:46Bill Johnson, Patricia King, Cheyenne.
33:50That's a new name for me, Cheyenne.
33:52Like I didn't even know who Cheyenne was.
33:55All of these guys covered, covered, covered sin.
33:58I'm just saying as a lay person, as somebody who's not, you know, got some huge ministry,
34:03just a woman, you know, standing for the Lord.
34:06If I knew that some guy who was being on a stage and being platformed was doing that in
34:11the background, I would just shout it from my Facebook mountaintop.
34:15I would just tell the world.
34:16I would go on my podcast and tell everybody.
34:18I didn't know, but Mike Winger got the information.
34:21So Mike Winger, the podcaster, is the one now bringing the truth.
34:25He's Paul, the apostle of this day and age.
34:28You are the one acting like the apostle of this day and age, bringing the truth, asking
34:33people to stick to sound doctrine.
34:36And that's what's changing everything right now.
34:38Yeah, I'm so thankful for Mike Winger as well.
34:40You don't know this because we've not talked in weeks or months, but Winger sent me something
34:46that I've been trying to get my hands on for a long time.
34:49And he sent me one.
34:51He was able to get one.
34:52But there are many.
34:53We have no idea the depths of how how bad this actually is.
34:57Paul Cain, who you mentioned, he was known apparently, according to the contacts that
35:03I know who knew Cain, Paul Cain was the fixer of the industry.
35:07If you wanted somebody to silence, to be silent, you call Paul Cain.
35:12Paul Cain, go fix this.
35:14Paul Cain would when he had conversations with people, he recorded every single conversation
35:20and all of the dirty things that you're talking about.
35:23It's all on tape.
35:23It is on tape somewhere.
35:25Winger sent me a transcript of one of the recordings.
35:28It was heavily redacted, but it was a meeting where Paul Cain is trying to pressure Chuck
35:35Smith and he's there with Jack Deere.
35:38And there what he's trying to pressure Chuck Smith is Chuck Smith had mentioned that Paul
35:44Cain was defrauding people of their money with his religious techniques, which is all of
35:49the discernment, the names, address kind of thing.
35:51If you read into that, he's also he outed Paul Cain as an active homosexual and Paul
35:58Cain came and pressured Mike Smith.
36:01After that meeting, Chuck Smith published a letter and retracted his statements about
36:05Paul Cain.
36:06So these guys, not only are they doing these terrible, terrible things, they all have dirt
36:11on each other and they try to sway each other.
36:15This is the way a mafia works.
36:17This is not the way Christianity works.
36:19We're there, aren't we?
36:20And how exciting that we're at this distinct time in history where God's had enough and
36:28he's in a mood.
36:29This is what I'm saying.
36:30God is in a mood and he's exposing it all.
36:33And you've got to be on the right side of that or you'll get crushed.
36:36And God is doing this and so we can stand strong in him.
36:39I feel I'm living the best years of my life, but it is stressful.
36:43Putting out that video yesterday, like it is very stressful to me to have to expose Heidi
36:50Baker, who's so well thought of, but she's acting the fool.
36:55And I have to put it out there because this is not okay.
36:59What they're doing to people, it's not okay.
37:01So this is like a reformation time in the body of Christ.
37:05And I'm pretty excited that, you know, that he's willing to use people like me and you,
37:11ordinary people who love God, who are willing to tell the truth.
37:15I think it's, it's fantastic.
37:18Absolutely.
37:19You're very courageous.
37:20Thank you so much for doing this.
37:21You're welcome.
37:23Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on
37:26the web.
37:26You can find us at william-branham.org and Laura Lynn Live.
37:30For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion
37:34from Christian Identity to the NAR.
37:37Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
38:15Yeah.yn
38:21Thank you.
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