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SportsTranscript
00:00I guess we can start with this because you threw out a very dicey carrot as we talk about the
00:05Evan Mobley for Jalen Brown possibilities. That's another day of that today.
00:10You threw something out of the pre-show meeting I'd like to hear you explain
00:13about your stance on Evan Mobley here.
00:17Yeah, I mean, I think when it comes to Evan, the collective we all have to recognize,
00:23he's a good player. He is. He was second team All-NBA last year. He was a first-time All
00:28-Star
00:29Defensive Player of the Year. We're not talking about a bad player. There's a reason why Boston
00:34wants him. I agree. Right? There's a reason why Oklahoma City wants to trade for him. There's a
00:38reason why Milwaukee wanted him as the centerpiece of a Giannis package. But the Cavs need him to be
00:45better. If they're going to win a championship with this group, as it's currently constructed,
00:50the Cavs need him to be better. And I think there are legitimate questions, Nick, about whether he
00:55can get to that point. Whether he can become more of an offensive force than what he has been.
01:01Whether he can be more involved on the offensive end of the floor more consistently.
01:06And I'm just wondering, as we continue to go on and the Cavs heap all this praise on Evan,
01:12and they've talked about him being a unicorn, and they've talked about comparisons to Giannis
01:18combined with Anthony Davis and Chris Bosh and Kevin Garnett in this superstar mix of guys that
01:24kind of look like him and sort of ish play like him. I'm starting to wonder if this fan base
01:31is going
01:31to turn on him. And I say that because, as I said, they need him to be better. I don't
01:39know that he can
01:40get to that level. The level that the Cavs need him to get to. The level that this fan base
01:45wants him
01:46to get to. The level that the Cavs have talked about him getting to. I don't know that he's ever
01:51going to get there. He might get a little bit better on offense, but it is entirely possible
01:58that Evan Mobley's ceiling is second team All-NBA. All-star. Like the last guy added to an All-Star
02:07roster. And that's not what they've talked about him being. Those aren't the expectations that they've
02:12placed on him. So he could down the road, maybe even this year, if he doesn't have the breakthrough
02:19season, the next level breakthrough season that this organization needs from him, if they're going
02:25to run it all back. It's very possible that he just becomes the picture of the guy that prevented
02:32the Cavs from trading for Jalen Brown, Giannis, Jalen Williams, and some of these other superstar guys
02:40that could theoretically be had by the Cavs this offseason. So I think you're onto something
02:46because there's a difference between Evan Mobley, the player and fan perspective. And I think we're
02:51already starting to see a little bit of that because I think we've already moved the goalpost
02:55with both Evan and Jarrett. I think a lot of people said, I want to see something out of Jarrett
03:00and
03:01Evan in the postseason. And I think if you watch the Toronto and Detroit series, you did.
03:06You did. Jarrett had a level of intensity across every one of those games that we've been calling
03:12for for four years. Evan had moments in multiple games in each series where he took it over. And
03:20those are the guys who got blamed a lot from what I was seeing from fans for the New York
03:24series.
03:25And Donovan didn't really get that kind of blame. Even James Harden was another guy that didn't get
03:31that blame. And my rebuttal has always been, well, this offense isn't set up for the bigs.
03:36It's set up for the guards. And they also really disappeared or were just inconsistent in the three
03:42series too. But there's also a reason why it's not set up for Evan Mobley or Jarrett Allen, right?
03:48We can admit that, can't we? Coming into this year, Nick, and we've talked about this, coming into
03:53this year, everything was about Evan Mobley. Kenny Atkinson was saying he's going to be used
03:58differently in the offense, more touches, more shot attempts, different kind of usage,
04:04expanding his game offensively. He's going to be a big part of what we do and what we become.
04:10And Donovan Mitchell was talking about Evan Mobley taking that next step, coming off the
04:14year that he was coming off of, where he collected all those accolades. So this was an Evan Mobley
04:20centric plan coming into this year. So much of what they did at training camp was about get Evan
04:26more involved. And then you know what happened? They were like, he's not ready for this. His
04:32game's not ready for this. And they started taking things away from him and they started
04:37simplifying his role because that wasn't the best thing at the beginning of the year for
04:41Evan. And it wasn't the best thing at the beginning of the year for the Cavs because
04:44he has no offensive game to speak of.
04:47I actually disagree with that. I don't think he has a well-rounded offensive game. I think
04:52he got hurt early in the season. I don't think that helped. I also think, I don't think it's
04:58coincidence that Jarrett and Evan were their best selves offensively when they weren't competing
05:04with each other for touches. And I think that was something like that. I think both of their
05:09best stretches happened without the other guy in the regular season. And I, so I, I think,
05:15I think both of them are coming up against a math problem in that they play similar styles
05:20of basketball. They have similar limitations, which I agree with. They also are both competing
05:27for touches with guards. And I think people look at usage numbers and say, oh, well, Evan's got high
05:32enough usage that doesn't, that doesn't qualify quality of touch, which I will say way too many
05:40of Evan's touches come with eight seconds in the clock when you're just trying to get a shot off.
05:44That's, I don't think that's a conducive way to take full advantage of him offensively.
05:49So I'm going to bring up an example. And one example in one moment doesn't encapsulate everything
05:55that, that there is about Evan Mobley. Okay. But the first play of the game against the Detroit
06:02Pistons in game five, they got the ball to Evan Mobley and he was facing up against Cade Cunningham.
06:10And then he decided to try and back down Cade Cunningham. Couldn't move him. Couldn't move him.
06:17Led to nowhere. It was a wasted offensive possession because they were like, here, Evan,
06:22here you go early in the shot clock, first possession of the game, make something happen.
06:27You have an advantage against a smaller defender. You should be able to either get by him or overpower
06:33him. Turned into a turnover. Then it's Evan Mobley against Tobias Harris in a similar situation.
06:39He did nothing with that possession. So all I'm saying is, you know, at some point when you're
06:45talking about touches and you're talking about usage, that has to be earned. And a coach has to
06:51feel like, all right, if we're going to make you more involved, it's going to be a positive outcome
06:56for our team. And I just don't think there's that feeling offensively when it comes to Evan
07:02and what that would mean for the Cavs if they make him more of a focal point.
07:06So I think, I don't actually think we're too far apart on Evan. I think the difference
07:12with Evan is Evan never got his chance to be the best player on a bad team. And I think
07:17when you look at other young bigs who've developed, they've had, I mean, even Shane Goon, and I
07:22know Shane Goon was a really nice offensive player coming into the league, but they've had
07:26a chance to be the focal point of offenses and develop on bad teams. Evan has always had
07:32two ball dominant guards with him and he's always been on the team that winning is the
07:36foremost thing and development has to come as the sidecar that I think that is a part
07:42of why his offense is taken as long as it's taken to go because he's been competing against
07:47both things since he came into the league, basically.
07:49So if that's the case and his path is his path and it's not changing and Donovan Mitchell
07:55is going to be back and James Harden is going to be back, then why don't you explore trading
08:00him?
08:01Because I would pursue trading other people. I personally think if I have to choose between
08:07them, I'll choose Evan and see if I can get a wing who can pair better with him than Donovan.
08:12I don't want to trade either guy, but if you feel like you have to choose, I think you've
08:20done everything to try and get the most out of Donovan. I don't think you've done everything
08:24that you can to get the most out of Evan.
08:28In what way?
08:29In the fact that you've saddled him with two ball dominant guards in every iteration of
08:33the teams he's been on.
08:34But what do you think it is about Donovan and his play style that makes him a bad fit
08:39alongside Evan? Or that you think it's Donovan that's holding Evan back and not Evan who's
08:44holding Evan back?
08:45How much Donovan has the ball in his hands? Donovan, I think, regressed as a playmaker this
08:50year. I also think the fact that Donovan has a dribbling problem. I think those things make
08:57it really hard. I think Evan works best in an offense where the ball is flowing and you
09:03can take advantage of him from the elbow as a passer. And I think things can be created
09:08off that because I think he's one of the most underrated passers in the NBA. I think
09:11he's fun to watch pass.
09:13I just look at Evan and I say, if we're talking about Unicorn, I think attaching that to what
09:20he does on the defensive end of the floor, I think that's fair. And I think it's right,
09:26actually. I think he's one of the five most impactful defenders in the NBA on a game-to-game
09:31basis and a possession-to-possession basis. Offensively, I just don't think he is a
09:37natural offensive force. I don't think he's an instinctive offensive player. And I think
09:44there are so many different limitations where, you know, if you're a defense and you feel
09:49like you want to make Evan Mobley uncomfortable, you can do that. There is an easy pathway to
09:56doing that. And I just don't think he has a counter to that.
09:59I think as of right now, you're right. I think my concern is, especially if you took him to
10:04a place like Boston, where again, the environment is different. And I know Tatum holds onto the ball
10:08too, but I just don't think you're contending with the same internal forces that you are here.
10:13And I also think at some point we can just judge the player on who he is instead of holding
10:18him
10:18up against to what people thought he was going to be three years ago.
10:21Yeah. But like, we're, we're not the ones, the collective, we were not the ones that did that.
10:27Evan didn't do it.
10:28The Cavs did it.
10:29Yeah. But why are we holding Evan accountable for the Cavs?
10:31Evan also did it.
10:33When did Evan come out and say, I'm the unicorn?
10:35Do you want to read my feature on him?
10:37Do you have it?
10:38Where he said to me, yeah, I can give it to you.
10:40Cleveland.com slash Cavs.
10:42I'm a married man.
10:44Where he said, he was the one who said, and this is in my feature a long time ago, that
10:51I'm going to be one of the best players in the NBA.
10:54And then last year during the All-Star game, he said for the next five years, it's going to
11:00be him and Wemby.
11:02He said it.
11:03I didn't say it.
11:04I just reported what he said.
11:06So yes, he has said that.
11:09And yes, the Cavs have said that.
11:11And yes, that's where the expectation and the pressure is coming from.
11:15It's not from me.
11:16It's not from you.
11:17It's not from all these other people that are paying attention to Evan Mobley and wanting
11:22more out of him.
11:24It's the organization.
11:25It's Evan.
11:25It's his teammates.
11:26It's everybody in that circle that is laying those kinds of expectations.
11:32Doesn't mean you should trade him, though.
11:33But I agree.
11:34I do agree with your central thesis, which is fans will turn on him if he doesn't get
11:40there.
11:40And I think it's going to happen this year.
11:42I think you're probably right.
11:44I think he is next year's Darius Garland.
11:46And I never thought I would see people turn on Darius the way people did here in town.
11:51It doesn't happen.
11:53It doesn't take time for that to happen.
11:55It's something that happens very quickly.
11:56Because people aren't going to turn on Donovan.
11:58It's not going to happen.
11:59Which drives me crazy.
12:00Not because I want people to.
12:02It's just what star of a team can have the postseason that he has and fans don't think
12:08twice about paying the guy $70 million a year.
12:13Well, I think part of that is the other option.
12:16So if you don't have Donovan Mitchell on this roster, what do you have?
12:20You have Evan Mobley.
12:21So that's why you're willing to pay him $70 million.
12:24No, that doesn't make it a good decision to pay him $70 million.
12:27Sure it does.
12:28No, it doesn't.
12:29Because you're competing for conference finals.
12:31Yeah, that's not competing for NBA finals.
12:33And I do think there's the idea of can you take a step back before you take a step forward
12:39with Evan?
12:39And I'm willing to pursue that path.
12:42No, sorry.
12:43I'm willing to be open to that.
12:44And I think where I am maybe a little inquisitive about what the Cavs approach is, is why you
12:51aren't open to everything at this.
12:53They seem to have roads blocked off that I don't think you can after the way this postseason
12:57has gone four years into Donovan.
12:59I think you're a lot of people right now, including executives in the NBA, where they're
13:06looking at the idea of Evan Mobley and not what he has shown to be to this point.
13:11I think it's fair to say it's unlikely he will take it as the Cavs are currently constructed.
13:17But like Darius, Darius's inability to stay healthy was why the Cavs fans eventually turned
13:25on him and made him the fall guy for the lack of playoff success the previous couple years.
13:30I think if Evan doesn't take a step forward this next year, it makes sense.
13:36I really do believe in the talent of Evan Mobley, even if I agree with some of your criticisms.
13:43I believe in his talent, too, but it's not as an offensive focal point.
13:49That's where the difference is.
13:50Could he be a secondary guy?
13:51I don't think so.
13:52I mean, like the second option.
13:53I don't think so.
13:54Because I think that's where he could be.
13:55He's got too many weaknesses in his offensive game.
13:58He doesn't create for himself.
13:59He's reliant on others to create for him.
14:01He doesn't have a post-up game.
14:03He doesn't have a face-up game.
14:04He can't bully smaller defenders consistently.
14:09Not consistently.
14:10R.J. Barrett was pushing him under the rim.
14:12R.J. Barrett of the Toronto Raptors.
14:15You know, Cade Cunningham was standing up to Evan in the post.
14:19So he just doesn't have a reliable, consistent offensive package.
14:24I think he can be developed.
14:25And I also think when it comes to the...
14:27How long have you been saying that?
14:29Five years.
14:30I don't recall.
14:30Right?
14:31Five years?
14:31I don't recall.
14:33And I know development is not linear.
14:36And everybody matures at their own rate.
14:39But in high school, it was his brother.
14:42His brother was the alpha.
14:45In college, it was his brother.
14:48His brother was the alpha.
14:49Like, every step of the way, these organizations or these colleges or these high schools have been waiting for Evan
14:57to be more than what he has been offensively.
15:00And it just hasn't happened.
15:02When did we go, though, from let's keep developing, let's do this?
15:06When do we flip the switch?
15:08Because I think that's when I look at him.
15:09He's still, what, 24 years old.
15:11I still do look at the defensive impact, which I think gets completely overshined.
15:16It's incredible.
15:17And I also look at the way the thing is built around him.
15:20Like, there are guys who need things built more to his strengths, and I don't think that's what the Cavs
15:26are.
15:26So I don't know when the, because you're not alone.
15:29There's a lot of Cavs fans who agree with everything you say.
15:33I just don't know when we turn the tables on this one.
15:36And again, comparatively, have not held Donovan to the same regard, have not held Harden to the same regard.
15:45I mean, I think even Jarrett gets a pass compared to Evan.
15:48I think we have held Donovan to the same regard.
15:52In which way?
15:52The difference is that Donovan has performed at a higher level consistently than Evan.
15:59He's scored more points.
16:00I don't know that he's performed.
16:02What else can he do beyond scoring?
16:04So this year, for the Cavs, in terms of on-off differential, how you perform with Donovan on the floor
16:11versus off the floor,
16:12it was one of the most lopsided numbers of anybody across the NBA.
16:17That spoke to his impact.
16:19And I know it was the regular season versus the postseason, but that spoke to his impact.
16:23He was in the MVP conversation.
16:25That's where I struggle with it, though.
16:26He was in the All-NBA conversation.
16:28Where was he in the postseason?
16:30Well, Evan Mobley was a statistical negative in the postseason.
16:33But I mean, just Donovan.
16:35Where was Donovan in the postseason when it came to off and on?
16:38Well, he wasn't a statistical negative like Evan Mobley was.
16:42I think Donovan's telling me right now.
16:45And he showed weaknesses.
16:45And there are questions about whether he can be the best player on a championship team.
16:49I get that.
16:50But he wasn't...
16:53I mean, he wasn't as bad as Evan was from a statistical standpoint.
16:56I think Donovan versus Evan is a textbook case of what siloed player, what non-three-dimensional
17:08player are you willing to live with?
17:10An elite defender who has, and it's fair to say, limitations in his offensive game, or a
17:16guy who is an undersized combo guard who scores at an elite level, but then tell me what else
17:23he does beyond that.
17:24Well, I think you're...
17:25Like, they're both limited.
17:25And I think Donovan gets a pass because he scores 28 points a game.
17:28Well, Donovan also gets a pass because he turned the franchise around.
17:32I mean, they were on the cusp.
17:33It's not like he rescued them from the lottery.
17:36See, that's the thing.
17:37We can't assume that they were going to get to this point without Donovan.
17:41Well, but aren't you assuming that they wouldn't have got to this without...
17:44They were a play-in team without him.
17:46Yeah, but we don't know what they would have been without him.
17:48I think we do.
17:49No, no.
17:50The best player would have been Evan Mobley.
17:52No, the best player would have been Darius.
17:53Okay, so the best player would have been Darius.
17:55How far do you get there?
17:56I think Darius, Evan, and Jared could have been okay.
18:00I'm not trying to relitigate.
18:02It was a good trade.
18:02I think there's enough evidence to say that they would have become a play-in team or play-in
18:09adjacent if Darius would have been their best player.
18:13Yeah, probably.
18:14All right, so Donovan got you the second round, three years.
18:17He also got you to the conference finals for the first time without LeBron James since 1992.
18:21Did he?
18:22Yes.
18:22Did they show up in the Eastern Conference Finals?
18:24I can't remember.
18:25They did not.
18:25They were terrible in the Eastern Conference Finals.
18:28Awful.
18:28Awful performance.
18:29One of the most lopsided conference finals losses in NBA history.
18:33But they got there.
18:34And we can't just assume that they would have gotten to that point without Donovan Mitchell.
18:39Donovan Mitchell has been to the playoffs every year of his career.
18:42That's not about Utah.
18:44That's not about Cleveland.
18:45That's about Donovan.
18:46At some point, that is about Donovan.
18:48Yep.
18:48Donovan is somebody who has led this franchise to 350-win seasons in the last four years.
18:55He is also somebody who has taken this franchise to the playoffs four years in a row.
19:00So, to go back at you, because I actually really like where we are.
19:04We're kind of backing different players.
19:07But, again, I don't want to trade Donovan.
19:08I don't want to trade Evan.
19:09I am looking for every avenue I can to make this team better.
19:12Okay.
19:13But in the same way that I agree with you, Donovan being in the playoffs every year of his career
19:17is a statement on Donovan.
19:19Yes.
19:20Donovan not making one Eastern Conference Finals and not ever having his team be a serious contender for an NBA
19:27championship is also a statement on Donovan.
19:31I would agree.
19:31And I think once you get to a point where you are nine years in and the best you've done
19:36is getting swept out of the Eastern Conference Finals and I've got to start making that future conversation about you,
19:42I do start to get a little concerned that I'm paying for past production with a guy who, in the
19:49playoffs, consistently looks like he's wearing down.
19:52Okay, but if we're looking at it through the lens of, you know, accomplishment, Donovan Mitchell has gotten you to
20:01the Conference Finals.
20:02Before he got here, the Cavs were a play-in team with no guarantee that they were going to become
20:07a playoff team, right?
20:09So there is some good faith that Donovan has built here that Evan Mobley hasn't, that Darius Garland didn't, that
20:18Jared Allen didn't.
20:20So Evan has to go somewhere else and elevate them so we can then look at him in the same
20:25light?
20:25Do you think he can?
20:26Yes.
20:27Why?
20:27Why? Because the teams that want him are the smartest teams in the NBA.
20:31Boston wants him, OKC wants him, those teams are teams that they don't suffer fools and they don't chase players
20:38that don't make them better and they're already pretty damn good.
20:43But they want him in the situation that they're in with the roster that they have.
20:47And my point is that this team, based on how it's constructed, needs a better version of Evan Mobley.
20:55It needs a different version of Evan Mobley than the Celtics would need, than the Thunder would need, than some
21:02of these other teams would need.
21:03And if he can't get there for the Cavs, then it's hard to continue to justify just hanging on to
21:10him, hanging on to him, hanging on to him,
21:12and waiting and hoping that maybe possibly one day he becomes that guy.
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