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00:00And we have him now on the wise heart, right?
00:01We make a right call Kyle Wright hotline.
00:03Chris, thank you very much for joining us this morning.
00:07If we're looking at it from like a football field standpoint, like, oh yeah, they're on
00:10the 10 yard line or whatever.
00:12What yard line are we on between the Cavs and the Celtics on a possible deal?
00:16Or have we even hit the football field yet?
00:18Yeah, I'm not sure we've, we've, I'm not sure what yard line we're on.
00:22I don't know if we've hit the field.
00:23We probably have already hit the field in terms of maybe some exploratory conversations
00:28because I do believe that a player like Evan Mobley is, is someone the Celtics would be
00:35very interested in someone they'd be willing to deal Jalen Brown for, you know, they're
00:41talking to other teams.
00:42Most of these calls that they're getting from what I'm told right now are incoming calls,
00:47teams looking to see if they can, you know, poach Jalen Brown for a discount type of price.
00:52But the Celtics, you know, they've made it clear they're looking to get dollar for dollar
00:56value back in return to get something in return that helps them win with Jason Tatum over
01:03the next three or four years.
01:04And there are very few players out there that, that fit that mold.
01:10You know, the Celtics, one thing I was told explicitly was they're looking, if they're
01:15going to trade Jalen Brown, it's going to be for an elite big man.
01:17And if you were making any lists of elite big men that hypothetically could be available,
01:23Evan Mobley is probably at the top of that list.
01:28Chris Mannix joining us on the show.
01:30Usually it's Carmen and Lima.
01:32Anthony is out today from the athletic Jason Lloyd.
01:35Hi, buddy.
01:36What's up, Lloyd?
01:37Oh, you guys know each other.
01:38Of course.
01:39I know.
01:40Go ahead.
01:41Can we go back to the beginning?
01:43Has this just run its course between Jalen and JT in Boston or why, why the impetus now?
01:49Or is it just that the genie got out of the bottle with Giannis and there's no going back
01:53now?
01:53Well, I think it's a couple of things.
01:56Um, I think the fact that the Celtics know that they can't compete, uh, for a championship
02:06without, you know, elite or high level big men is a big variable here.
02:11And there are no big men on the market that are, you know, appealing that the Celtics
02:18go out and land.
02:18Like they've got a pretty big trade exception.
02:21I think it's about $27 million.
02:23I guess, hypothetically, they could go and call Milwaukee and say, we'll take Miles Turner.
02:27I don't know if that moved the needle.
02:29The Celtics really haven't been interested in Miles Turner before, but their fatal flaw last
02:34year in the playoffs was that they got just battered by Joel Embiid over the final three
02:39games of that first round.
02:41And it only gets worse after that.
02:44Like you're looking at the Knicks with Towns.
02:46And if you do make it to the NBA finals, you got to deal with Wembenyama and other bigs.
02:50And there's just no, no pathway to getting the kind of big that can help them win a championship.
02:56Um, other than using Jalen Brown as that asset.
03:00Now the difference, the difference this time around with Jalen Brown, as opposed to previous
03:04times, because we've, we've been doing Jalen Brown trades in 2018.
03:08Like he was going to get traded for Kawhi Leonard.
03:10He was going to get traded for Anthony Davis two to three years ago, four years ago.
03:14It was Kevin Durant.
03:15They were in those years, they were really hyper-focused on one player, right?
03:20When the AD stuff didn't work out, they weren't looking to flip Jalen Brown for somebody else.
03:24When Durant, when that didn't pan out, they weren't looking to flip Jalen Brown elsewhere.
03:28Now, it seems to me like they're more motivated than ever to move off of him and to split
03:35these two guys up.
03:36And again, part of that is there's no other pathway to getting an elite big man without
03:40using Jalen Brown.
03:42And part of that may be, they feel like this duo, as good as they are, they've just kind
03:46of run their course.
03:47Chris Mannix joining us here from Sports Illustrated.
03:50He's on the Wiseheart Right, We Make It Right, called Kyle Wright Hotline.
03:52Then I have to ask this question.
03:54If the Celtics feel they can't win another with Jalen Brown, why would the Cavs feel they
04:01can win one without Evan Mobley and with Jalen Brown?
04:04Well, I think because I think Jalen, to me anyway, makes more sense in Cleveland than he
04:12does in other potential situations.
04:15Like, there are a couple ways you can look at the Cavs in this past season.
04:18One is the Kenny Atkinson way, which is we took a step forward.
04:21We were a better team this year than we were last year.
04:25We made the conference finals, yada, yada, yada.
04:27The other part of it is, you know, we needed seven games in multiple rounds and they got
04:33beat by the Toronto Raptors and we got boat raced by the Knicks.
04:36Like, we're not there.
04:38We're not there with this group.
04:40The Cavs still have Jared Allen to backstop that front line.
04:43They've got two bigs.
04:44I kind of like the fit of Jalen in Cleveland.
04:47Jalen's a championship guy who's coming off the best season of his career, who's proven
04:53that he can be the guy in big games.
04:55I mean, he was the conference finals MVP two years ago.
04:58He was the finals MVP two years ago, and he's only getting better.
05:02I also like the dynamic there.
05:04I mean, Donovan Mitchell and Jalen Brown are great friends.
05:07Like, they've been close for many years now.
05:09So that's, I think, part of the equation with a potential deal like this.
05:13I actually think, I don't know, frankly, if Boston is a better team with Evan Mobley over
05:20Jalen Brown.
05:21I kind of think that the Cavs are a better team with Jalen Brown as opposed to Evan Mobley.
05:28I'm 100% with you.
05:29And sort of the Jalen Brown trade rumors in Boston for years, it's the same thing.
05:33People around here, I think, tend to undervalue Evan quite a bit, and he constantly comes up
05:38in trade rumors.
05:38And I've dismissed, I think, every single one of them until now.
05:41Now, this one, to me, makes a lot of sense on both sides, and you don't see that very
05:46often to the point where, who else is out there, Chris, that, like, because I asked
05:51Ken earlier, if you're not going to trade Evan for Jalen Brown, who are you?
05:55Like, you're not going to trade him at all.
05:56Because in a realistic scenario, who's available?
05:58There's nobody else available who's better.
06:00And I would tend to go the same way from Boston.
06:03Who else is out there from Boston's perspective if it's not Evan?
06:08Who else are they?
06:08Like, I just think that this really lines up well, and I don't know that there's a lot
06:12of matches for both of these teams outside of these two teams.
06:15I don't think there are a lot either.
06:16I mean, I think you could probably, I think Houston would be a team to watch without Prince
06:22Shingun.
06:22But he's a below-the-rim big man who doesn't bring much to the table defensively.
06:27That's not really what the Celtics are looking for.
06:29That's not a Joe Missoula type of player.
06:31I think Atlanta potentially could get into that mix with, you know, with some of the
06:37guys they'd be willing to deal.
06:38Dyson Daniels, you could probably get Risa Shea out of Atlanta.
06:41But that's kind of getting a few quarters on the dollar, you know, to reach Jalen Brown's
06:46number.
06:47I mean, this, like, you know, when this was brought up to me by the different executives
06:51that I've been talking to, it just, I feel the same way you did.
06:53I'm like, huh.
06:54Well, Boston needs a big man.
06:56And I think in Boston, you know, in that kind of player development machine that Joe
07:00Missoula's done, especially with big man, where you got Keita turning into a pretty viable
07:04guy last year, I think they could probably extract a little bit more out of Mobley, who
07:09I thought kind of plateaued a little bit this year after taking a jump in previous years.
07:14And I think in Cleveland, you know, you've got another dynamic guy who can play multiple
07:18frontcourt positions, who can get you a bucket, you know, and compliment Donovan Mitchell
07:24in those kind of ways.
07:25And as you're thinking about Donovan Mitchell's long-term future in Cleveland, Donovan, he
07:31would never say anything bad about any teammates, and I'm sure he loves playing with Evan Mobley.
07:34But we know the relationship with Jalen Brown.
07:36We know they've been friends for a long time.
07:39And I think Donovan can see the addition of Jalen Brown as maybe moving the Cavs one step
07:43closer to being that kind of championship team.
07:46And I know we're obsessed now with, like, let's get big, let's get big.
07:49We've got to match up with Wembenyama, all that stuff.
07:52Like, two years ago, you had to have great wings.
07:54And I think you still have to grab great wings.
07:57Because if for some reason Wembeny doesn't get you to the NBA Finals out west, you've
08:02got to deal with Oklahoma City and all their wings.
08:04And you're going to need, you know, a talented guy like Jalen Brown.
08:07And that is something that, as you guys know, Cleveland has sorely lacked over the last few
08:11years.
08:13Two things.
08:14One, you said that Boston has interest in Evan.
08:19Do you have any indication of whether the Cavs have any interest in parting with Evan?
08:23And then secondly, how do you see the fit of not only Donovan and Jalen, but then James
08:30Harden as well?
08:31Yeah, I have not heard specifically about the interest the Cavs would have in Evan.
08:38So I can't speak necessarily to that.
08:42I do think the fit with Donovan is outstanding.
08:47You know, Jalen has experience being the 1A guy.
08:51Like, and granted, this past year has probably emboldened him to make him believe that he's
08:56more than that.
08:57But I also think Donovan, after years of having to be the guy and make shots and have all the
09:02defensive pressure slanted towards him, I got to believe he would welcome, you know, having
09:07that another guy, an elite guy in his prime playing alongside him.
09:12With Harden, like, we all know Harden's going to be back one way or the other.
09:16Like, he's going to be there in Cleveland next year.
09:18It's going to be incumbent on him to continue to adapt to his surroundings.
09:23And if the situation in Cleveland, you know, if that means he's got to be more of a playmaker
09:28than he ever has been before, that's what he's got to be.
09:31And look, I think for Harden at this stage, he's got to be looking to embrace something
09:35like that, too.
09:36Like, he doesn't need to be James Harden MVP anymore.
09:39He hasn't needed that in a couple of years now.
09:41I think that all these pieces, this kind of perimeter combination, I just think they all
09:47fit really well, especially when you look at where these guys are at their respective
09:52stage of their career.
09:53If they were all 22, 23, 24, and you're talking about, like, the Oklahoma City Thunder circa
09:572012, then yeah, I would have my concerns about how this team would fit.
10:02But all these guys in their late 20s, Jalen I think going to turn 30 this year, Harden
10:08in his late 30s, they're just at a point where I think the fit would be much more seamless.
10:12Chris Mannix, SI, joining us this morning.
10:15Jason Lloyd in for Anthony Lima.
10:17What's LeBron going to do?
10:18What do you think?
10:22My gut is he's back in L.A. on some kind of deal.
10:26But that's just right now, that's a gut feeling.
10:30Like, the Cleveland stuff still lurks out there.
10:33The Miami stuff still kind of lurks out there.
10:37But I go back to the lifestyle part of this for LeBron.
10:41And that's why he went to Los Angeles, or part of the reason he went to Los Angeles in the
10:45first place is that he wanted to be in Los Angeles.
10:49And that hasn't changed all that much.
10:52He's playing with his son, obviously, but his family is entrenched in the Southern California
10:57area, and I think that's going to be a big factor in his decision-making process over
11:04the next couple of weeks.
11:06And look, we know, even if it was for a brief period of time, that he accepted the role he
11:11had with that team as kind of that facilitator, number three option alongside Luka Doncic and
11:19Austin Reeves, if he's still able to embrace that and willing to play that type of role,
11:25then the Lakers still make a ton of sense for him.
11:28So my gut feeling right now, and look, the Lakers, once they, like, they're going to be,
11:32there's a lot of moving parts in L.A. right now.
11:34Like, we saw Reeves agree to that deal, but he won't sign it for a while because they'll
11:37be trying to figure out all these other ways to make things work under the cap.
11:41This new ownership group in L.A. is not going to blink at, you know, paying luxury tax penalties
11:48to give LeBron the most money they can give him on a short-term deal.
11:51Mark Walter has more money than anybody would know what to do with, and he spent that money
11:55in Los Angeles with the Dodgers.
11:57He'll do the same thing with this Lakers roster as much as he can.
12:00I think LeBron won't get the max, obviously, but he will be satisfied with the dollar figure
12:06that the Lakers come to the table with, and I think ultimately my feeling is that he'll
12:11want to be in L.A.
12:12I agree.
12:13In January, I thought there was a real path for Cleveland.
12:17I don't know that I necessarily believe that as strongly anymore, but would you agree you
12:22cannot do Jalen Brown and LeBron with this casting?
12:27Yeah, no, there's no way to make that.
12:29Like, financially, I don't even know how, like, it already gives me a headache, Lloyd,
12:33trying to think of, like, the machinations to get under the second apron or whatever you
12:37have to do to make this deal happen with Jalen Brown.
12:40It's one or the other.
12:42And look, I actually think Jalen's more viable.
12:43I think Jalen's an exponentially better fit because Jalen extends your window three,
12:49four, five years.
12:50Like, Jalen, one thing I, and I've been around Jalen a lot over the years.
12:54We've had, as you know, like, you have plenty of ups and downs with guys over the years.
12:57Jalen is the kind of guy, as we've seen, he reads everything, he sees everything.
13:02And, you know, if you say something about him, he's going to be keenly aware of it.
13:06One thing you can say about Jalen is that he puts the work in every single day.
13:10Like, he knew coming into this past season that he was going to have to step up in a
13:16big way with Tatum Adelana.
13:18He transformed his body.
13:20He tweaked his game.
13:21And he became immeasurably better player in his late 20s.
13:25That rarely happens in the NBA.
13:28So, look, this guy puts in the work.
13:30He's proven to be durable.
13:31He's a proven winner.
13:33Like, you know, LeBron's LeBron.
13:35And he obviously brings a different level of cachet to Cleveland.
13:38But if I had a choice, and I know the cost is probably high with an Evan Mobley, I would
13:43take, you know, Jalen Brown six days a week and twice on Sunday.
13:45We've got like a minute and a half, but you know Jalen better than anybody else on this
13:48call.
13:49What would his appetite be, do you think, for coming to Cleveland?
13:51I know Donovan would be here.
13:53Some people don't care about the city they're in.
13:55Some people would look at Cleveland and turn up their nose.
13:57How do you think he would feel about being dealt here with three years left on his contract?
14:00I think he'd be fine with it.
14:02Look, he'd be eventually looking for an extension and to get the maximum amount of money whenever
14:06that's eligible.
14:06But I think he'd be fine with it.
14:08I think he's looking for opportunities to win and mostly places that he's wanted.
14:13I mean, look, Jalen Brown's draft selection was booed on draft night.
14:18Like, at the Garden, it was booed when fans wanted, you know, to trade the pick for Jimmy
14:22Butler or the insane people wanted Chris Dunn with that pick.
14:26And from every year on, he has been in trade rumors.
14:30Now, the Celtics have done a good job at, you know, taking care of him.
14:33They can be the most highest paid player in the NBA a couple of years ago.
14:36But I think as much as anything, Jalen Brown wants a chance to win, a chance to lead, and
14:41a place to be wanted.
14:42I think Cleveland, they would check all those boxes for Jalen Brown.
14:46Chris, thank you very much for the time.
14:47All the best.
14:48Looking forward to talking to you again soon.
14:50Thanks, buddy.
14:50Anytime, guys.
14:51Chris Mannix, senior writer, Sports Illustrated.
14:53A lot to get into there.
14:55I have to keep asking that question because they want to go to the same place at the same
14:58time, the Celtics and the Cavs.
15:00So I liked his answer.
15:01I want to play it again for everybody about that because it's not just about trying to
15:05get better.
15:06It's about what are we trying to do that they're trying to get rid of and trying to get over
15:10on us.
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