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At least 27 people have been killed after the Pakistani army opened fire on unarmed civilians during protests organised by the Joint Awami Action Committee in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
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00:01Good evening, you're watching India First. I'm Gaurav Sawant.
00:05Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir is in flames.
00:09At least 27 people have been massacred by Pakistani security forces.
00:14They've opened fire on unarmed civilians in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir,
00:21demanding basic rights.
00:24They were demanding their right to vote.
00:27They were demanding democracy.
00:30They were demanding Aata.
00:31They wanted schools and colleges and hospitals
00:35and that Pakistani Punjabi Muslims should not take over their territory and their rights.
00:41They were shot at. They were killed.
00:44Local reports say that the death toll is much higher.
00:48Some reports say anything between 40 and 50, more than 200, have been injured.
00:54People have taken to the streets demanding democracy and respect to their vote.
00:58They're demanding cheaper electricity, lower prices of essential commodities, greater political representation,
01:04schools, colleges, hospitals, just the very basics.
01:07The trigger for this round of raging violence has been Pakistan Army's ban.
01:13Total restriction on the Joint Awami Action Committee or the JAAC, a grassroots Kashmiri movement that had become the voice
01:23of the people of Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
01:26But what followed were arrests, raids, restrictions on public gatherings, communication disruptions, internet snap, and then deadly clashes, firing at
01:38point-blank range, caught on camera.
01:41But the story is much bigger than Pakistan Army's atrocities on Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
01:48There's anger against the military regime in Rawalpindi that's across Pakistan.
01:55Take, for example, what's been happening in Balochistan.
01:57People in Balochistan are fighting for their freedom against occupation by Pakistan Army since 1948.
02:07They're hitting out against extrajudicial killings.
02:10In fact, they're now targeting the Pakistan Army.
02:13And then in what Pakistan describes are its northern areas, Gilgit and Baltistan.
02:19Again, part of Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
02:22Activists are complaining now of detention, curfews, and shrinking political space because they don't want their rights to be sold
02:29off and pawned off to the Chinese.
02:31And from Gilgit and Baltistan, let me bring you down to Sindh province.
02:36Thousands have taken to the streets against controversial Pakistan Army canal projects.
02:41They're hitting out at Pakistan Army that it's diverting crucial water that's meant for the Sindh province for its military
02:49contornments and coroner plot projects.
02:53In Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, again, what was known as Pakistan's northwest frontier province, the area is in flames.
03:01It's erupted against Pakistan Army operations and civilian displacement and jackpots.
03:06The people in KPK or Khyber Pakhtunkhwa want freedom and they don't accept the Durand line like their brothers across
03:15in Afghanistan.
03:16For decades, Pakistan claimed it's the voice of Kashmir.
03:23But look at what Pakistan is doing to people in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
03:28On the world stage, they claim Kashmir is their juggler win.
03:32Well, yes, they are suicidal, but right now they're cutting their own juggler win.
03:37Tonight, it's the Kashmiris in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir who are accusing Pakistan's army and the political-military establishment
03:45of the military jihad complex of denying them their basic rights.
03:49And that's our top focus.
03:51But just shift focus from Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir to the development that's taking place in Jammu and Kashmir
04:00and Ladakh.
04:01The union territories of Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh.
04:04Watch these images.
04:06Today, India achieved a historic milestone with the breakthrough at the Zojila Tunnel, one of the country's most ambitious infrastructure
04:14projects.
04:16When I was covering the Kargil War in 1999, military trucks used to cross the Zojila Pass.
04:21And then, when I was covering the standoff in Ladakh, post-Galwan standoff in 2020, the entire focus was quick
04:29build-up so that you would have resources in place before Zojila shut down because of massive snowfall.
04:36In fact, we were trapped in an avalanche at the Zojila one year.
04:40But now, all that is history.
04:42Watch those images on your television screen.
04:45For decades, Zojila Pass was vulnerable to avalanches and these heavy snowfall that actually cut off Ladakh from the rest
04:53of the country for a good three months, sometimes even four months every year, year after year.
04:58Now, that vulnerability is now history.
05:01Of course, it was exposed during the 1999 Kargil War, post-Kargil build-up because November, the pass would shut
05:09down and would open only in March sometime, sometimes even April.
05:13So, military logistics, troop mobilization, replenishment of resources for Kargil, for Ladakh, for Syarchan Glacier, for Eastern Ladakh, LAC, all
05:24of that had to happen in just six months' time.
05:27Now, it can happen round the year.
05:30The tunnel changes that equation completely.
05:32It provides all-weather connectivity to Ladakh and it's a great thing for the people of Ladakh.
05:39They don't need to rely just on expensive air travel.
05:42They can just drive down to Kashmir anytime they want and then the rest of the country.
05:47So, it's huge for strategic mobility.
05:50And, of course, this is a development that will be watched very closely by our adversaries on the northern borders
05:56and the western borders.
05:58The breakthrough is not just an engineering marvel.
06:01It's a strategic statement from India at one of the most sensitive places in the world.
06:07And then, look at it happening at two different places.
06:09You have the Selah Tunnel in Arorachal Pradesh and now you have the Zojila Tunnel in Ladakh.
06:15We'll talk more about it.
06:16But first, I want to get you our top story from Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
06:20For years, Pakistan has sought to portray itself as the voice of the people of Kashmir.
06:26On world stage, they claim they were the ambassadors of Kashmir.
06:29Today, it's Kashmiris who are being massacred in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
06:33Of course, on either side, Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir, look at the situation, whether it's Ravla court or in
06:40Muzaffarambar.
06:41Even basic rights are being denied.
06:4327 people, at least 27 are dead.
06:46There are reports that say maybe even 50 are dead.
06:49There are some in the UK who claim, Mirpuris who live across or others, people of Pakistan origin,
06:56they are complaining the death toll is much higher.
06:59And more than 200 have been injured.
07:01Hundreds have been detained.
07:02The entire region is being pushed to the brink by Pakistan army jackboots.
07:08That's the human cost of the latest crackdown by Aasem Munir's establishment in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
07:16You'll ask why?
07:18The protesters were demanding something as basic as electricity, water, education, their basic right to vote.
07:28Twelve seats, the Pakistan army controls the Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir,
07:35as they call it, their assembly, through twelve seats, people who live overseas, their votes.
07:43ISI, by some accounts, is willing to let go of six, others who say ISI will not let go because
07:47that is how ISI, Pakistan's ISI or their military terror network,
07:51they control the Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir assembly.
07:56Human rights, they've been just, look at those images and we'll show you thousands of those images that are now
08:01viral on social media.
08:0312 seats for refugees in July 27 elections to the top legislative body, out of 45, up for grabs, ISI
08:11won't let go.
08:12Instead of dialogue, when people said ISI will not decide, the people will decide, there was a crackdown.
08:18Authorities declared the Joint Awami Action Committee, or JAAC, a banned organisation and launched a crackdown against the leadership and
08:26their workers.
08:26Activists have been detained, officers have been sealed, raids have been carried out in multiple districts ahead of the region
08:33-wide shutdown call that began this afternoon.
08:36What followed?
08:38Widespread protests across demonstrators.
08:41They took on the security forces, despite being shot at point-blank range.
08:45Those are the areas that you see, whether it's Neelam Valley or Muzaffarabad or Bagh or Kotli or Mirpur or
08:52Rawla Court.
08:53That is where the protests are taking place, even right now.
08:57Tensions have escalated further.
08:59Firing has been reported in multiple locations.
09:02People have been killed at point-blank range.
09:04In fact, there are some reports that people are not being permitted to take their bodies home for burial.
09:09Pakistan Ami incidentally has done this in Pakistan-Panjab province against the Tehrik-e-Labbek.
09:15But the fallout isn't just restricted to POJK.
09:17Protests have taken place outside Pakistani diplomatic missions in the United Kingdom,
09:21with slogans of
09:22They want Pakistan Ami to get back to their controlment.
09:30At least 50 British MPs have written to the British Foreign Secretary.
09:34They've raised concerns over reported arrest restrictions and communication blackout in POJK.
09:40India, of course, has also hit out.
09:42India is asking the global community to wake up, open their eyes and take a look at what's happening.
09:46They want the Pakistan army and government to be held accountable for human rights violations that are taking place right
09:53now, even as you and I speak.
09:55So how did this movement centered initially around electricity bills, inflation, lack of political representation, spiral into this deadly confrontation?
10:04Remember, schools and colleges and hospitals remains a huge issue.
10:09Take a look at this report that tells you how bad the situation is on the ground right now.
10:30A rebellion is brewing in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir, and the anger is directed squarely at Prime Minister Shahbaz
10:38Sharif and Army Chief General Asim Munir.
10:41For weeks, resentment had been building over inflation, governance failures, political rights and Islamabad's heavy-handed control over the region.
10:53Now that anger has erupted onto the streets.
11:01The latest unrest began after authorities banned the Joint Awami Action Committee, or JAAC, a grassroots movement that has spearheaded
11:11protests across POJK.
11:13Authorities followed up with arrest and sweeping crackdown ahead of a region-wide shutdown call.
11:24What followed were deadly confrontations.
11:28As protesters poured onto the streets, security forces cracked down.
11:33The violence has claimed 27 lives, while more than 200 people have been injured in clashes stretching from Raabal Court
11:41to other parts of POJK.
11:43Internet disruptions, mobile service restrictions, mass detentions, a ban on public gatherings, and a communications blackout.
11:53Human rights violated one after another.
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12:24trabalhadores. However, when
12:25one day came into看, one person is killed about making progress against adultery efforts to the crime of rem purpose,
12:26food and the
12:27But the anger is no longer confined to POJK.
12:32Hundreds of Kashmiris gathered outside Pakistani missions in London and other cities across the United Kingdom,
12:40protesting against the atrocities of Pakistan's government and military establishment.
12:50Slogans such as ''Hum Cheen Kar Lenge Azadi'' and ''Pakistan Aami Go Back'' echoed through the protests.
12:59At least 50 UK MPs have written to the Foreign Secretary expressing concerns over the situation in POJK.
13:07The parliamentarians have raised questions over reported arrests, restrictions, the ongoing crackdown and the communication blackout.
13:17India has also taken a serious note of the situation in POJK,
13:21with the Ministry of External Affairs calling on global community to hold Pakistan accountable for its crimes and abuses.
13:29There are reports of police brutality, which you would have seen.
13:33There are several reports in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, in which several people have been killed.
13:40There are several more who have been injured.
13:42We hope the international community will hold Pakistan accountable for its misdeeds and its abuses.
13:50The protesters demanded basic rights.
13:53Instead, they received bullets.
13:56And that truly exposes how Kashmiris are being treated in Pakistan.
14:02Bureau Report, India Today.
14:10How bad is the situation on ground right now?
14:13Can Pakistan army jackboots continue to trample democracy in POJK, like it actually has across the rest of Pakistan?
14:19Look at Imran Khan languishing in jail because Field Marshal Aasir Munir wants to continue to rule Pakistan with an
14:26iron fist and perhaps serve his masters, whether it's China or the United States.
14:31So let's try and make sense of the developments in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
14:35Joining me on India first is Lieutenant General Raj Shukla, former army commander and a commentator on strategic military affairs.
14:41Major Adil Raja is a former Pakistan army officer, journalist and analyst.
14:46Javed Badar is former media coordinator for Imran Khan.
14:50Major Raja joins us from the United Kingdom.
14:54There have been protests there.
14:55Major Raja, you've been a part of Pakistan army.
14:58Is it so easy for Pakistan security forces to shoot at civilians demanding their rights in POJK?
15:04What are you picking up, Major Raja?
15:07I mean, the military works on precedence.
15:10And if you're talking about precedence of last three and a half year, ever since Imran Khan's government was removed
15:17in an alleged regime change operation,
15:20and it is not an allegation anymore, we have seen the cipher coming out of the Pakistani Foreign Office
15:26in which the U.S. Undersecretary of State, Donald Liu, had asked for that Imran Khan's regime change to be
15:33implemented.
15:34And that's how Pakistani military operate.
15:37So if a precedence was created in the last three and a half years in which the Pakistani military repeatedly
15:45carried out this crackdown,
15:48violent crackdown on political dissent,
15:50the last example was in Islamabad, the capital of Pakistan, where on 26th November 2024, protesters were massacred.
16:01And, you know, direct fire by the Pakistani military's Triple One Brigade, which is also called the Marshala Brigade, was
16:09opened up.
16:10Yeah, yeah.
16:11So the coup brigade was opened up.
16:12So the precedence exists.
16:14And afterwards, you've seen what happened in Mureedke, when the political dissidents of TLP were massacred in broad daylight.
16:24Hundreds of casualties were reported.
16:26Fatalities were reported.
16:27So there is a precedence.
16:29And military works on precedence.
16:31Pakistani military works on precedence.
16:33So the precedence exists.
16:35That's, yes, a crackdown, violent crackdown by the military is very much possible.
16:40How bad is the situation in POJK, according to inputs you are getting?
16:45Some reports seem to indicate 27 people have been killed.
16:49There are others who say the toll could be anything between 45 and 50.
16:5550 fatalities, whether in Ravlakot or Muzaffarabad or Bimbar and other locations.
17:00What are you picking up?
17:02You see, I belong to Bimbar myself.
17:04And, you know, my area is from, you know, Kangra district in Hamachal Pradesh up to Bimbar.
17:11This is the same tribe, the, you know, Muslim Dogra Rajput tribe.
17:18So I'm getting the information from there.
17:20And in Azad Jamun Kashmir, we call it AJK, you call it POJK.
17:26In Azad Jamun Kashmir's latest protest, the verified information so far put that toll to up to 27.
17:36And the locals were making allegations that it is from 100 to 150.
17:41But in all honesty, this is the local area.
17:45Yeah, but please, let me tell you, this is the, this is my local area and the people are protesting
17:51on home ground.
17:52So you cannot steal the dead bodies as there were allegations of stealing of dead bodies in Islamabad, of the
17:59Pathan, the Pakhtuns coming from Khabar Pakhtunkhwa.
18:02So I honestly believe that the toll right now is in between 30 to 40.
18:09All right.
18:10So, of course, Reuters are saying 11, but I don't think it's 11 is too less.
18:1527 were confirmed that toll till last night.
18:17And today, straight firing has been carried out.
18:20So we are expecting it to cross over 30 people.
18:24Yeah.
18:25But how did things become so bad that security forces had to open fire on people?
18:32You know, Pakistan is quite this peacemaker of sorts.
18:36General Aasem Muneer and, you know, Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif, they're traveling all over saying, let's have peace, let's have
18:43dialogue.
18:43While they do that in Iran, they're shooting people in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.
18:49Well, it's funny you ask me that, because the peacemaker role which they are playing is for seeking domestic and
18:58international legitimacy in the absence of, you know, public mandate in Pakistan itself.
19:04Because the Commonwealth report has brought it out that the 2024 elections were rigged and there were massive irregularities.
19:14Entire Pakistan knows that the present regime in power, the Sharif regime, has been brought into power through stealing public
19:24mandate by the Pakistani military regime of Aasem Muneer.
19:31Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I'm not making allegations. I'm quoting the Commonwealth report, the Pakistani PILDAT report.
19:40In Pakistan, they say it is a Form 47 government. Now, Form 47 government means that in Form 45, the
19:48people voted and Imran Khan got the vote two-third majority in Form 47.
19:53They just simply changed the numbers. And they said, all right, fine. So, now the government will come after the
20:00election rigging.
20:01So, a government which lacks domestic political legitimacy is seeking international legitimacy through these negotiations.
20:09So, I mean, it is really, it's hilarious to say that they're the peacemakers.
20:15I mean, they are killing their own people non-stop. And it is going on. I've just quoted a few
20:22examples.
20:23Islamabad, November 2024. Mureed K is the latest example. In Karachi, in Khaybar Pakhtunkhwa, in Kuwaita.
20:31I mean, they're opening fire. The military is opening fire.
20:34And they are ruling as a colonial force because they want to suppress the political dissent.
20:40Come what may, I mean, at any cost, they're suppressing the political dissent.
20:45So, I mean, they are not peacemakers. I mean, if you're, if you're, they're trying to project themselves as peacemakers.
20:52But they're nowhere near that.
20:54Major Raja, stay with me. Let me now bring into this conversation, Lieutenant General Raj Shukla.
21:00Few people understand Pakistan Army's psyche and mentality better than General Shukla.
21:06General, welcome.
21:07What do you make of these POJK protests in defense of democracy or demanding democracy?
21:15And it seems ISI says nothing doing.
21:18They will control whoever forms the government in POJK, Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir.
21:24But can the people, in your view, looking at these protests, stand up to Pakistan Army jackpot, sir?
21:33You know, Gaurav, the first thing I'll say is that, you know, these are all signs of fraying statecraft and
21:39a collapsing state.
21:41It's not only what's happening in POJK, but what happened in KPK, Balochistan, Sindh.
21:47In your very eloquent commentary, it tells you about the state of Pakistan.
21:53And it just so happens on the 30th, 31st of May, nine to ten days back, I happened to be
21:59in Srinagar for the Lit Fest.
22:01And this was, I think, my first visit after a couple of years.
22:06And I was amazed to see, you know, choked roads, a sense of participation, overflowing cafes, color, romance, festivity, prosperity
22:16on the street.
22:17And it's not that the disaffections have all gone away, but it is a commentary on the two models.
22:24In one model, you have the army submitting to civilian control and therefore exercising years of calibrated restraint in Jammu
22:36and Kashmir.
22:37And here you have a trigger-happy army, as a soldier, I hang my head in shame.
22:42This is bestiality.
22:44This is cowardice.
22:45You don't fire on your own men.
22:47And why I'm particularly disturbed is because the two armies come from a common womb.
22:52That is why it is so distressing.
22:54This is also a time to point to the wisdom of people like Field Marshal Karyappa, who laid the edifice
23:01of a politicality.
23:02And gentlemen like Field Marshal Manikshah, who said that we are deeply politically conscious, but consciously not politically committed.
23:11Look at the wisdom of that statement.
23:13We always stayed out of politics.
23:14And here is Asim Munir and Shahbaz Sharif.
23:18I mean, they are bringing the state to ruin.
23:20Global media outlets are describing what is happening.
23:23There is massacre.
23:25Some of them are comparing it with what happened in 1971 in Bangladesh.
23:29It's just not a few protests here.
23:31And it's been building up for pretty long because, as I said, Pakistani siyasat mein, Danish Mandi bachi hi nahi
23:38hai hai.
23:38There is no wisdom.
23:40Politics has ceased to flow.
23:41Look what happens in TOJK.
23:43Let me bring in Javed Badal.
23:47When the political class failed to take up the cause of the locals, the JAC stepped in.
23:53And the JAC is a political.
23:55It is a body of lawyers, traders, students, transporters.
23:59And as you said, when they voted, when they voted, what do you do?
24:08Tariq Fazal Chaudhary, a federal minister, says that we will charge them under Section 302 for murder.
24:14There is no insensitivity.
24:16On a civil rights, civil society organization, you are, you know, you are charging them with terror laws.
24:24It can't get more ridiculous than that.
24:27There was a time when Pakistan used to claim, Pakistan army, that it was the guardian of ideological frontiers.
24:33Damn it, you are losing your state to not any external aggression, but to internal repression.
24:38I mean, it is as bad as that.
24:39So, it's time for the Pakistani state in the army to wake up to the reality and brutality of what
24:46they are doing.
24:47It's utterly, utterly disgraceful.
24:49I'll get Major Raja to respond to that, but I want to bring in Javed Badal into this conversation.
24:54Javed Badal, you have listened to what the General said in Pakistan is not dead in the government.
25:02Do you understand?
25:03Look at the manner in which Imran Khan, the most popular prime minister, according to Pakistanis,
25:09he's been languishing in jail.
25:11But what is your assessment of the situation right now in Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir, sir?
25:16Some reports say 50 people are dead.
25:24Okay, give me a moment.
25:25I'll reestablish that link.
25:26But Major Raja, you want to take that question that both the Indian army and Pakistan army were born of
25:31the same womb.
25:32But right now, the Pakistan army is massacring its own people.
25:36And like you rightly pointed out, sir, not just in POJK, but across the country, including in Pakistan, Punjab province,
25:45where apparently, correct me if I'm wrong,
25:47bodies were stolen by the Pakistan army and not handed over.
25:52Bodies of people killed in Pakistan army firing were not handed over to people in the Tehrik-e-Labbeg protests?
25:59Well, I'm really, you know, it's very difficult for me to say,
26:04since I'm a third generation Pakistan army officer.
26:08And, but, you know, I would like to acknowledge what General Shukla said, you know,
26:15and usually I'm a very stubborn junior, but being a major, I would say in the military,
26:21they say senior is always right.
26:22And General Shukla is right over here because he is coming from a place of, you know, empathy.
26:29And I can actually, you know, notice it in his tone.
26:33And what he's saying is deeply, you know, it is hurting my feelings, definitely,
26:40because, you know, this is my army.
26:42And yes, we both come from the same tradition.
26:45We both come from the same womb, as you may like to call it, fine,
26:49but we came from the same heritage, actually.
26:52And we, both of our countries are from the same heritage,
26:56and both the militaries are from the same heritage.
26:57But there is a major difference that after partition,
27:01the Pakistani military involved itself into the politics.
27:05And they got the taste of the blood once they, you know, took over power,
27:09starting from Field Marshal Ayyub Khan, and then later on General Ziaulag,
27:13then General Musharraf, and now Field Marshal Asim Muneer.
27:16You know, they, the problem with the Pakistani military is that,
27:20unlike, you know, General Shukla is here,
27:22Sir, the generals in my country, of your, you know, rank and file,
27:29they aspire to be billionaires and multimillionaires in U.S. dollars.
27:35So materialism took over professionalism.
27:38And once you have to, you know, get a benefit package,
27:44which is, for example, for a left-hand general,
27:47is around about these days around 12 to 13 million U.S. dollars,
27:51and you need to have mentions all over the country and then abroad as well,
27:57once your children are living in three-bedroom apartments in Manhattan.
28:01I'm talking about the current chief of general staff, General Syed Amir.
28:06You know, so you do need to maintain a hold on to politics
28:10so that you make policies which will benefit the military businesses.
28:15And Pakistan is a military business empire, military incorporated,
28:20which is, of course, we are running on the name of the welfare of troops
28:23and men which are being killed.
28:25But unfortunately, the men are not being looked after.
28:28The troops are not being looked after.
28:30The generals and the high-ranking red tapers,
28:33they're getting richer by each passing day.
28:35And I don't need to say much.
28:38You can look at the Bay Leagues.
28:39You can look at Panama Papers.
28:40You'll find the generals of Pakistan and their properties all over.
28:45So once you have to maintain that kind of a hold,
28:47then you have to maintain a hold over politics and governance.
28:51So you no more remain the same, you know, professional army,
28:55which I'm sure, I mean, which the, I hate to say this, I swear,
29:02which Indian army is right now.
29:05And I'll be, you know, taken through task by my own colleagues.
29:08I hate to say this, but at this point in time...
29:11But it's a fact, you're stating facts.
29:12General Shukla, Major Raja is stating facts.
29:16And this is, all this information is in public domain.
29:19The kind of mansions Pakistan army generals have overseas.
29:25Apparently, General Kayani owned a beach or something.
29:29He owned an entire island, according to some reports.
29:31They own mansions in UAE and UK and US.
29:36But tell me this, is that the reason, General Shukla,
29:40in your assessment, that military jackboots are now ruling across Pakistan,
29:46killing people in Balochistan,
29:48diverting rivers to make canals for sindh cantonment projects,
29:53for killing people of Tehri-ke-Labbek in Pakistan's Punjab province,
29:57and what we see in POJK right now?
30:01You know, I must first commend Adil for his honesty.
30:05And that's, I know, soldiers at heart are always honest.
30:09And so, in that sense, I quite relate to him.
30:14See, the point, I don't grudge the Pakistani generals,
30:18their plots or their Manhattan flats.
30:20That may also be a point, but that is not the central point.
30:23The point is the sheer lack of wisdom, as I said, in statecraft.
30:29And Imran Khan is the supreme example.
30:32How can you have one of the most popular political leaders in your country
30:37and the way you incarcerate him to prison?
30:40I mean, that man is in danger of losing his eyesight.
30:44This is sheer brutality, bestiality.
30:47It is this part of the Pakistani army which really worries me.
30:51Soldiers don't do this.
30:52I mean, once again, let's bring in Sam Manikshar.
30:56Look at the grace and dignity with which he treated those 93,000 POWs in 1971.
31:03True.
31:03It is all about soldierly virtues, sharafat, those issues.
31:09And that sharafat and that Danish mandi that you mentioned,
31:12now that I have Javed Badar with me from Pakistan.
31:16General, permit me one, you know, let me bring in Javed Badar from Pakistan.
31:20Javed Badar صاحب, you know, Major Adil Rajah and General Shukla صاحب as well.
31:27He said that which country in the country, there is no religion.
31:31He will have their own people.
31:34He will have their own people.
31:34Or he will have their own popular minister, Imran Khan صاحب,
31:39Javed Badar, they will have their own people, they will have their own people.
31:44What is the state of the POJK?
31:52Okay, I seem to be having an issue with that audio link, but Major Raja, okay, General, you want to
32:01go first? General, go ahead, then Major Raja.
32:03Adil, go first. He's such a great man.
32:06I want to understand from Major Adil, Raja, what is Imran Khan's condition? Is he just on the verge of
32:12losing his eyesight?
32:13God forbid, there are reports that seem to say that Aasem Munir would want him killed or dead in prison.
32:20Well, sir, yeah, of course, he's lost 85% of his eyesight and it is very much recorded and it
32:26is also part of his medical report by the government doctors have said
32:31that he's lost 85% of his eyesight because of poor conditions because of the military regime in my country,
32:38who are the de facto ruler, the field marshal, the self-imposed field marshal.
32:45Okay. So, General Shukla, on a scale of 10, how bad is the situation for the Pakistan army in POJK?
32:53What's the situation, you know, on a scale of 10? Can Pakistan army retain POJK in the manner in which
32:59it's shooting people?
33:01Or it's shooting itself in the foot?
33:05I mean, see, I would strongly advise them not to do so.
33:10This repression never pays.
33:12And we are already seeing the consequences of what I say is lack of politics, lack of wisdom.
33:20The state is falling apart.
33:22You know, people tell me that when we are taking POJK?
33:26I say we don't need to take it.
33:28It's all that we are coming to our own.
33:31And on a lighter note, may I tell the Pakistan army,
33:34if you don't get it from us, let's give us a POJK.
33:37In one or two years, we will come to Amand Chehnawale.
33:40Especially in northern areas.
33:42How bad is the situation in your military appreciation in KPK, in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa,
33:47with Durand lines simmering for years now?
33:50It is disastrous, Gaurav.
33:54I mean, I can imagine when I was commanding the division in Baramula,
33:57if there was a minor unrest, you would get four calls from the army commander,
34:02three calls from the corps commander inquiring what has gone wrong.
34:06And you were, I mean, always pushed from the top to settle it.
34:11I mean, somebody told me, one of my seniors,
34:13that these situations are armed politics.
34:17So using weapons is just one part.
34:20But the whole political, you know, engagement of outreach,
34:23of getting to the root cause, you don't open fire on your own people.
34:29You simply don't do it.
34:31Professional armies don't do it.
34:33And I am getting a little emotive.
34:35Not because, you know, it's not a matter really of the park armies per se.
34:40It is of the larger cause of soldiery, soldiering.
34:44Soldiers don't do these kind of things.
34:47It is sheer cowardice.
34:49In Baluchistan, reports say that the corps commander
34:51is scared to come out of his own contornment.
34:54There's an entire corps in Baluchistan.
34:57I'm told, Gaurav, the military hospital in Rawalpindi has been attacked.
35:02How shameful.
35:02The military hospital in Rawalpindi.
35:06And Adel was giving some figures.
35:08I've been going through global media inputs.
35:10The dead are in the range of 70, 80, 90.
35:15It is massacre.
35:17I mean, it is really...
35:18Major Raja, I think I have you back.
35:19You wanted to come in, sir.
35:21Yeah, I just wanted to add on one thing, sir.
35:23The basis of the problem, which I would definitely agree with General Shukla,
35:28then the concept of an officer and a gentleman is dead in my military, in my army,
35:34which I've proudly served as a fighting arm officer for 21 years,
35:37and I've been a war-warned officer.
35:39Now, the issue is that the corruption and materialism has really taken over amongst the officers.
35:46And because of this corruption and materialism, you know, everybody is out there to make money.
35:52And because of that, the Pakistani politics right now,
35:57especially under the Field Marshal Asim Muneer, who is not a Pakistan Military Academy regular officer,
36:02he, you know, he was a ranker.
36:04I don't mind that.
36:05Being a ranker is fine.
36:07I mean, he was an Air Force airman.
36:08He joined the Pakistan Army through officer training course, a short course.
36:13And he came with a very different set of principles.
36:17And he became an intelligence operator.
36:19I don't mind that.
36:21I mean, he is called the deceiver.
36:23And he was named the deceiver by a sportsman at the Staff College,
36:28in the Command and Staff College, because of his characteristics as an intelligence operator.
36:34Now, the deceiver can be a very good intelligence operator.
36:37But once you're acting as an army chief, and once you're acting as a statesman,
36:43well, you have to think differently.
36:44But he is unable to think differently, because the people under his command,
36:49the sector commanders of the ISI, who are actually running the country through the DGC,
36:55Major General Faisal Naseer, whom Imran Khan named Dirty Harry, you know.
37:00So all of them are corrupt and incompetent.
37:04So corruption is the rule of the day.
37:07And if you are, you know, running the country through the Corps of Military Intelligence,
37:13who are essentially, please don't mind me saying, my family is also in the CMI,
37:18but who are essentially criminally minded people, because for them, N justifies the means.
37:24So if you have handed over the entire country to the Corps of Military Intelligence,
37:29criminal minded and corrupt officers,
37:31so this is going to be the result which you're seeing in Pakistan right now, sir.
37:36Okay.
37:36So that's, of course, Major Raja describing, you know, General Asim Munir.
37:40He was known as the deceiver in the academy, as he very rightly pointed out.
37:44Very pertinent point you both raised, sir.
37:45General, last 30 seconds, because I want to now shift focus to the other story,
37:49but go ahead.
37:49General, last word to you.
37:51General Shukla.
37:51So, you know, just two quick points.
37:53I agree entirely with Adil.
37:56Militaries are built on morality.
37:57I'll give you one quote.
37:58You know, it's just a military adage in the Indian military,
38:01which says that in any organization, there'll be a senior and a junior.
38:06The senior, if he's a gentleman, will never show it.
38:09The junior, if he's a gentleman, will never forget it.
38:12Look at this.
38:13So the people who should be restraining Asim Munir are the guys around him.
38:17This is how good armies operate.
38:22It is a misnomer that, you know, it is just, you know, orders from the top.
38:26No, it's to and fro from horizontally, vertically.
38:29And that's what makes good armies great.
38:31And the second point I'd like to make very quickly.
38:33I will let that be the last word on this part of the show.
38:35So, General Shukla and Major Raja, many, many thanks for joining me here on this India First special broadcast.
38:42Pakistan remains in tailspin.
38:44But for the moment, from Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir, I want to talk about the development in the union
38:50territories of Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh.
38:52For decades, Zohjila Pass has been a lifeline and a bottleneck.
38:57The only road link between Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh.
39:02But some, that link that remained cut off for months every year in the winters.
39:09Today, one of India's most ambitious infrastructure projects crossed a huge milestone.
39:15The 14-kilometer-long Zohjila tunnel being built at an altitude of 11,500 feet achieved a breakthrough
39:23as engineers blasted through the final rock barrier inside the main tunnel connecting Ladakh with Jammu and Kashmir.
39:31We get you more in this report.
39:53For decades, Zohjila was both a gateway and a challenge.
39:58A mountain pass connecting Kashmir and Ladakh.
40:02But one that winter could shut down for months.
40:05Today, India has punched through that barrier.
40:16In a major engineering milestone, the final rock wall inside the strategic Zohjila tunnel has been breached.
40:24Bringing the ambitious all-weather connectivity project a giant step closer to reality.
40:31It's a historic day for India's strategic infrastructure as well as modern technology and the infrastructure in the mountain area.
40:39Extremely difficult Himalayan terrain.
40:42As we see, the breakthrough has been achieved at the critical Zohjila tunnel.
40:46This is world's longest and at the highest tunnel, 13-kilometer Zohjila tunnel.
40:53This will give significant connectivity to Kashmir and Ladakh.
40:58Built at an altitude of over 11,500 feet, over 13 kilometers long,
41:05the Zohjila tunnel will become the world's longest bi-directional single-tube road tunnel.
41:11A project many believed was impossible to get completed.
41:17Engineers battled sub-zero temperatures, avalanches and unstable geology to reach this point.
41:25The Zohjila tunnel breakthrough enables year-round access to Ladakh,
41:30paving the way for all-weather connectivity between Kashmir and Ladakh.
41:35Once completed, it will ensure year-round access, faster troop movement, stronger logistics
41:43and significantly boost India's readiness along its northern frontiers.
41:49At the breakthrough ceremony, Nitin Gadkari hailed the tunnel as a game-changer for Ladakh.
42:23The tunnel is built in a state of art.
42:32foreign
42:37foreign
42:39foreign
42:39Our government came to Aadhania and Modi ji's interests, and I got the responsibility for this department.
42:49And with Vishay Shrup, Modi ji has the highest priority for infrastructure development.
43:00Beyond connectivity, the project is expected to boost tourism, improve trade, create economic opportunities,
43:07and strengthen strategic access to one of India's most sensitive regions.
43:14Deep beneath these towering peaks, India is building more than a tunnel.
43:18It is creating a permanent, all-weather lifeline to Ladakh.
43:24Vita Ashutosh Mishra, Bureau Report, India Today.
43:30And joining me now on this special broadcast on this big story,
43:33is left-in general D.P. Pandey, former Kashmir Corps commander.
43:38General, as an infantry soldier who served extensively on both sides of Zorjala,
43:43both in Ladakh and in Kashmir, what's your first reaction seeing that final blast
43:48and 24-7, 365 days connectivity between Kashmir and Ladakh?
43:52I wish I was there, Gaurav, when this blast took place.
43:57True.
43:57Having walked across, driven across, flown across Zorjala by fixed wing, by choppers, small, big, both.
44:06And if you recall, a couple of years back, having driven, having drove a motorbike along with you across Zorjala
44:17Tunnel,
44:17my memories are absolutely fresh.
44:20I recall very clearly once the avalanche had struck about more than 100 vehicle column, civilian and military both,
44:33and I saw the dead bodies stuck in the cabins after six months when the snow started melting and they
44:41started coming out.
44:42And that point of time, I always wondered, and we used to talk about world-class infrastructure connecting the entire,
44:50each and every corner of the country, respective countries in the world, especially the Western countries,
44:55and I used to wonder why it's not happening to us.
44:58And this important breakthrough has got two-folds or other three-folds of security issues.
45:07One is economic security.
45:09You imagine for six months, anybody who was a Ladakhi or somebody who was stuck on the other side,
45:16had family or a soldier, was unable to transact business, come out onto this side, carry out treatment, medical treatment,
45:25along with the Zedmore Tunnel and the Zorjala Tunnel.
45:28All this thing will become 12-year round, 12-month round process.
45:35Amazing.
45:35They can transact business, they can move the children.
45:39As a Chinarkur commander, I remember young men and girls coming to Chinagar to study.
45:46And in the winters, they were unable to go back home because in the holidays there was just no chance
45:52for them to go.
45:52And therefore, either we used to make arrangements or, you know, they were all shortcuts and this thing.
45:59But now this will empower those children to go back and forth.
46:02Sir, and if we were to look at the bigger picture,
46:06Sela Tunnel in Arunachal Pradesh and Zorjala Tunnel in Ladakh,
46:10two absolute game-changers for Bharat when it comes to strategic security
46:15and also, you know, for the people of Ladakh and for people of Tawang.
46:21Absolutely. But when you add this Rotang Tunnel as well, the game-changer is phenomenal.
46:28You know, we used to be, I used to be concerned as a core commander of the transit time and
46:34the turnover time
46:34for the forces which are deployed in Ladakh region.
46:37And we are always constrained, we are pushing, we are counting minutes when the vehicle had to pass through
46:42and they go through and go across Zorjala because the passes will close
46:47and especially the Chinese were able to use this to their advantage
46:51because on their side the terrain is different.
46:54And this travel, this tunnel will allow movement of the security forces in a graduated manner,
47:01spread around 12 months along the entire year.
47:06It makes our security situation far, far more stronger and better.
47:12I must tell you, I recall that motorcycle ride that you, General Joshi,
47:1875 Braves of the Indian Army, including many who participated in the Kargil War
47:23and my privilege that I reported that war, that motorcycle ride on top of Zorjala.
47:28Hopefully next time, sir, we'll be riding through this tunnel.
47:32But for joining me here on this India Today special broadcast, many thanks.
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