00:05let's now turn to another lawyer politician Nalin Kohli of the BJP joins us appreciate
00:11you joining us Mr. Kohli whether it's in Bengal where MLAs and MPs are allegedly defecting
00:20joining the BJP or breaking away from the Thinamul Congress or now in Madhya Pradesh
00:25whether our allegation that the BJP is wooing Congress MLAs with cash and cross-voting could
00:33take place in the Rajya Sabha elections the general belief is that the BJP is now determined
00:40to manufacture a majority for itself in Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha through Sam, Daam, Dandabhed
00:47by normalizing this politics of defection and cross-voting how do you respond Mr. Kohli?
00:52I reject each one of those contentions Rajdeep and respectfully I'd like to counter each one of
00:58those points that you've raised is the 52nd constitution amendment in 1985 and just to
01:06refresh everyone's memory under Rajiv Gandhi as the prime minister a healthy congress government of 400
01:11plus MPs that the anti-defection law came in which is the 10th schedule of the constitution of India
01:17under the 10th schedule of the constitution of India the constitution of India itself provides for a
01:22mechanism when MPs or MLAs in the in a particular party if they are tired or want to move out
01:29of
01:30it they are entitled to do so if they are more than two-thirds majority now the news that's coming
01:36in 20 out of the 28 MPs in the Lok Sabha of the Trinamul have walked out let's also come
01:45to the state
01:4658 of the MLAs have formed a separate group now any political person irrespective of the political
01:53party they are in can clearly see the mood of the people and the writing on the wall there is
01:59a
02:00comprehensive eradication of the leadership of Mamata Banerjee and Abhishek Banerjee rejection by the
02:07people of Bengal in a wholesome manner now if the elected representatives feel that their party was
02:13running as a fiefdom or run by a private limited family entity of aunt and a nephew they feeling
02:22frustrated they feel they were not able to work in an environment on which there were allegations
02:26of intimidation of corruption etc certainly they can move out and they are just a minute Mr. Kohli
02:33no no just a minute are you telling me there is no BJP hand when these same MPs are spotted
02:38in the
02:39residence of your minister Bhupendra Yadav who's in charge of West Bengal when the chief minister
02:43Mr. Suvendu Adhikari is spotted at those meetings are you telling me that BJP is not doing anything
02:49to induce them as some of the MPs have gone on record that they have got phone calls from these
02:55ministers Mr. Amit Shah's office has reportedly phoned them and asked Yusuf Pathan for example to come and
03:02meet him are you telling me that BJP has nothing to do with what is going on coming from a
03:09senior and very respected journalist as you Rajdi and also a friend I find that really rich
03:16really rich at the end of the day if I go and have lunch with the US ambassador would that
03:21make
03:21me a potential CIA spy or I have lunch with the Soviet with the Russian ambassador would that make
03:28me a KGB agent so if I go and bump into say Rahul Gandhi in say any walking on the
03:33street somewhere
03:34does that make me that I'm hobnobbing with Mr. Rahul Gandhi to change my partner where are we heading
03:40in a democracy no no no one minute one minute sir no one has bumped into BJP neither the meetings
03:45are
03:45being held at the residence of Mr. Yadav you have to wait you have to wait for me to complete
03:50so now
03:50let me come to you that's my opening comment let me come to another point it is possible in a
03:57democracy that these MPs decide to go and meet Mr. Bhupendari Yadav now why who says they can't meet
04:04him they can meet also Mr. Rahul Gandhi they can also meet anybody else so I mean why are you
04:09putting
04:09the blame on the BJP please show me where is your this apprehension coming that there is any
04:14intimidation or an operation lotus or a dood ka dhula something why don't you ask these questions to
04:20the MPs and the MLEs you don't ask the affected party and they haven't joined us Mr. Kohli over
04:25the last 10 years Mr. Kohli just a minute over the last 10 years there have been several instances
04:30where reportedly an operation lotus has taken place you saw what happened in Maharashtra
04:34the Shiv Sena broke the NCP broke there were then allegations of what the Shiv Sena UBT called
04:41Khoke Ki Rajniti crores of money being given MPs allegedly being bought for anything from 20 to 50 crores
04:47now the truth of the matter is why are these MPs in all these states or MLAs in all these
04:53states look
04:53at over the last 10 years 80 to 90 percent of the defections have taken place from opposition parties
04:59to the BJP and the fact is the BJP is happily accommodating these defectors and thereby the
05:05allegation is normalizing the politics of defection Atal B.R.E. Vajpayee and L.K. Advani used to stand up
05:11against the same politics of defection the new BJP seems to be embracing it there is no old BJP
05:17there is no new BJP there is the BJP which was formed in 1980 and it evolved from the Jansang
05:23and we are always strong on our ideology in fact it's the BJP that had said about article 370 and
05:29under prime minister Modi that has been removed it is talking of Ram Mandir Ram Mandir happened
05:34to a court judgment but we were at it for several years we talk of a uniform civil court our
05:39states
05:39are doing it we are committed to our ideology now let's come to your question in your question
05:44let's go back one by one the law was brought in by constitutional process which is the 10th schedule
05:50by Rajiv Gandhi did defections happen in that period of Rajiv Gandhi in the period of Indira Gandhi
05:56going backwards defections have happened ever since there are political parties people change
06:01their parties but the Ayaram Gayaram culture changed with 1985 when a person could have been in a political
06:07party in the morning and that single person could have gone to another political party in the afternoon
06:12returned back to the parent party in the evening from where this phrase came out Ayaram Gayaram
06:16you know that you remember it now let's come to the allegations of cash you've of course as a senior
06:22journalist been part of that entire cash for votes in the Manmohan Singh era you've covered it and seen
06:28the wards now that was evidence please show me the evidence today so we can't go only by
06:33allegations the fact of the matter is that today where we stand people do not want to seek
06:40they are not comfortable say with the leadership of the congress party that's for the congress party
06:44to introspect and if in the Trinamal congress they are not comfortable with Mamata Banerjee and
06:49Abhishek that is for them to decide not the BJP but if they decide to join our hands certainly
06:56why would we be complaining if they subscribe to our ideology if they subscribe to the mission of
07:03development of Prime Minister Modi but there is no such development at the moment
07:06your question is actually in the air sir I take your point except for the last point where in the
07:11last point you say that if they subscribe to ideology what's the harm these same political
07:15figures or parties were targeted by the BJP when you were opposing them in election elections over
07:23we are seeing some are calling it the Trinamalization of the BJP in Bengal it was also suggested in
07:30Maharashtra the same just a minute sir the same Ajit the late Ajit Pawar was targeted by your
07:35leadership and called the most corrupt politician of Maharashtra what happened later you all formed a
07:41government with him the question therefore arises because you are accused of misusing power
07:46weaponizing agencies the moment all the Maharashtra politicians switched over to you they were
07:52suddenly the cases against them disappeared the allegation is that this is the washing machine
07:57the same Shuvendu Adhikari sir who today is your chief minister in Bengal was caught on tape
08:01accepting cash the BJP accused him of being corrupt today he dood se dhula hua that's the reason why
08:08the question is arising is this all the normalization of immoral politics so let's pause for a minute
08:16you spoke about the weaponization of agencies the Honorable Supreme Court during the Manmohan Singh
08:22UPA era Congress party called the CBI a caged parrot now that was a direct Supreme Court's comment
08:29on the weaponization of the CBI have we heard that comment second let's come to the agencies
08:37in all the cases that the agencies are maligned at let's take the example of the enforcement
08:43directorate several cases are there where they find 16 crores cash 10 crores cash 5 crores cash in one
08:49former Congress MP's house they found some 350 crores cash let's again repeat the figure just so
08:55that people know I'm not making a mistake 350 crores cash so and now excuse me the agencies probably
09:02did a great job in and the agencies don't want to sir the agencies don't go into any of the
09:06BJP
09:07politicians houses is it 95 percent only of the opposition parties houses the question is it seems
09:13to be carrot and stick I haven't finished my answer no no the question is just because I'm giving an
09:19answer that has a cogent part so you have to wait for me to finish that then you ask me
09:23a count I'm
09:24not running away from any answer yes so and I you know me I'll answer all of them so let's
09:29go now to
09:29the first one let's return to it so the agencies obviously are doing a good job now let's come to
09:35the
09:35next point anyone who's joined the BJP is there an allegation of corruption now let's come to the
09:41government of Prime Minister Modi in the last 12 years and mind you Prime Minister Modi has been in
09:46government for the last 12 years is there an allegation of corruption the Congress mounts on
09:51a daily basis one allegation or the other where is the allegation of corruption now if there is no
09:56allegation of corruption you have to manufacture or tell the agencies oh one minute hold on we are
10:01on article 14 just because we found five people in the opposition who are corrupt please go and
10:08raid now five people in the BJP just to prove a point I'm sorry it doesn't work like that and
10:13as
10:13a lawyer I can't accept that argument this would take article 14 too far so I gave you a concrete
10:18example of mr. Shubindu Adikari your chief minister in West Bengal and the fact is that he was caught on
10:23tape taking money the moment he switched to the BJP we haven't heard of the case therefore the
10:28presumption is let me ask you in another positionally opposition leaders are being you switch you
10:34we will clean you are you you will all the cases will go isn't this as I said the normalization
10:42of
10:43immoral politics no no one minute let's come back to Shubindu Adikari ji when was he caught on camera and
10:48tape he joined the BJP right when did he join the BJP 2009 before the 2020 uh in 2023 sure
10:59so now tell
11:00me in that entire period West Bengal where state has the uh in charge of law and order under the
11:06constitution what did they do and you're blaming the BJP there was a central agency investigation on
11:12him that is for the central agency but did it prevent the state from doing anything for someone who joined
11:16the BJP I mean come on he was the he was the right-hand man of uh miss Mamata Banerjee
11:24and miss Mamata
11:25Banerjee and her entire state machinery couldn't find substance in that so I mean it's okay Rajdeep
11:30you're making a point now let's come to the immoral politics you're saying look Rajdeep there are two
11:33parts to it we can sit down on this and we can debate on what is moral and what's immoral
11:39the fact of
11:40the matter remains in a democracy people decide who they want to elect they've elected people across the
11:46political spectrum irrespective of their political leanings with and without allegations that's where
11:51it stands however where I come from for the BJP I'll say show me a single case of corruption against
11:58the Modi government it doesn't exist what we can say is our governance model has a difference people
12:03see it and people are voting on that governance model and back to the debate of today if the
12:07Trinamul congress MPs are frustrated with their party leadership and they decide under the 10th schedule
12:13to follow what the constitution provides for you can't find fault with that okay I'm going to leave
12:42with a particular party but that's another debate that we will have on another day for now perhaps
12:48we'll wait and see we'll wait and see if that happens but it's good to talk to you thank you
12:51very much for taking my questions thank you thank you
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