00:00Okay, so let's raise the big questions on our talking point tonight.
00:04Has defection politics been normalized in the Modi era?
00:08Why are the opposition's elected representatives ready to switch sides so easily?
00:14Have anti-defection laws failed to stop the Aya Ram, Gaya Ram culture?
00:18And is the BJP now seeking to manufacture a majority for itself in both houses of parliament at all costs?
00:25Joining us now is the eminent lawyer, politician, senior leader of the Congress Party, Abhishek Manu Singhvi joins me.
00:34Appreciate you joining us, Dr. Singhvi.
00:38Do you concede that the opposition finds itself increasingly vulnerable to defection politics?
00:46Why blame the BJP if Tinamul Congress MPs and MLAs are so ready to switch sides after an election defeat?
00:53If Congress MLAs over the last 10 years have been so willing to switch sides as have MLAs of the
00:59opposition in Maharashtra, do we blame the BJP for it or the opposition for it?
01:04There is a very strong reason to blame the BJP, which I'll come to in a minute.
01:09But to be candid with you, there is no doubt that ultimately it reflects on the character and the individual
01:14persona of the person.
01:15Clearly, they do not have the integrity, the tough stand, etc.
01:21And clearly, I will go further, there must be weaknesses in the TMCs, current imbroglio, which has led to this.
01:28There must have been weaknesses even in the recent past when they were in power.
01:32So we have to concede that nobody is saying 100% of the blame lies on the BJP.
01:36But let's be frank and candid now for a minute and let's smell the coffee.
01:40These people in not one state, but the paradigm is now for the last five years.
01:45This name given for Operation Lotus is longer than five years, but I'm taking only five years.
01:51This has been a standard pattern.
01:53Everybody knows, number one, that the resources, the monetary resources with the BJP as one single party
01:59is more than 50 to 70 times all the other parties combined.
02:04Number two, you know that these are nothing to do with ideology.
02:08They are allurements in the positive sense of offering you all kinds of things.
02:15Thirdly, there is negative allurement.
02:18There is a threat.
02:19There is a withdrawal of a case against you.
02:21There is a threat about all kinds of things which will happen to you.
02:25This is open secret.
02:27We know the names.
02:28We know the cases.
02:29Now, this being so, you are having an unequal, non-equal, non-level playing field,
02:35which is actually distorting democracy.
02:37Now, it's all very well to say, look, it ultimately depends on the individual.
02:40It depends on the maladministration of your party.
02:43Why should they want to live in such an excellent party?
02:45That's not reality.
02:47That's not smelling the coffee.
02:48You are making the democratic system highly skewed, which is a matter of extreme sadness.
02:54One more caveat, by the way, Rajdeep, and this is not the time to go into it.
02:59I have spoken on this, on your very program on this.
03:02By the way, it is very amusing to see this two-thirds business.
03:06I have said before on your program, there is no such thing as a two-thirds going and avoiding the
03:12tenth schedule.
03:13There are cumulative conditions.
03:15Only the second one is talked about, namely two-thirds in number, not the first one of a political party
03:19merging.
03:20Without the twin conditions, cumulatively satisfied, they are liable for defection.
03:25But, again, see the uniqueness of Indian politics.
03:28I will file a complaint saying that Clause 4 of the tenth schedule applies.
03:32They are disqualified.
03:34My complaint goes to the Speaker.
03:36The Speaker belongs to the BJP.
03:38The Speaker will never decide or decide not to decide or decide in favor of the BJP.
03:43The man who has filed the complaint, the complainant will go to court.
03:47The court will issue notice, jawab, jawab will jawab.
03:49It will take two years before there is even a primary decision.
03:52By then, everything is over.
03:54So, this is the reality of Indian politics.
03:56Although, I believe strongly, as held in the Shiv Sena case…
04:00We've seen that…
04:01Yes.
04:03There is no defection.
04:04There is no defection immunity.
04:05The Shiv Sena case does speak…
04:11Yes, sir.
04:11But the fact is, the Shiv Sena case is very clear that even if it's two-thirds,
04:15both the political party and the legislature party have to merge with another party,
04:19but at the end of the day, that matter is still pending.
04:22Yes, but that matter in appeal is still pending at the Supreme Court.
04:25The question, therefore, is…
04:27No, no, no, last sentence is wrong.
04:28Let me interrupt you, Rajiv.
04:31Let me interrupt you, Rajiv.
04:32No, no, one minute.
04:32One minute, one minute.
04:33The last sentence is wrong.
04:34That's the final judgment.
04:35Acting is pending.
04:36That's the law.
04:37But the law is applied by the Speaker.
04:39Speakers are partisan.
04:40Yes.
04:40That's the problem.
04:41The law is clear.
04:42Sir, because…
04:44Yes, because…
04:45Yes, but because of the alleged partisanship of the Speaker in Maharashtra,
04:50the Shiv Sena UBT has gone and appealed to the Supreme Court.
04:53The court has still not heard their matter.
04:56My…
04:56Has not yet given a final verdict on their appeal.
04:59My question to you is simply this.
05:01Do you, therefore, concede that the law is no longer an obstacle?
05:04This whole two-thirds of a party is needed is also no longer an obstacle.
05:08We have seen wholesale and retail defections taking place.
05:12No, absolutely.
05:12We are also…
05:14You agree with that or not?
05:16100% what I am giving you is a stronger example.
05:20You are talking of the Speaker's decision challenged by the Shiv Sena and pending in court.
05:24Prior to that, there is a judgment of three judges led by Chief Justice Chandrachud,
05:29which has held already the law that cumulative twin conditions require to be satisfied.
05:35Knowing that law, knowing that law, the Speaker decides not to follow it.
05:39Forget the Maharashtra Speaker.
05:40Tomorrow the Speaker in West Bengal, tomorrow the Speaker in XYZ State decides not to follow it,
05:45saying that, well, I am doing it.
05:47Now he is wrong.
05:48But to show that he is wrong, our courts take two to three years.
05:53Therefore, I agree, A, the defection law should be repealed with a one line.
05:58One line trend schedule, anybody elected on symbol X, party Y, shall resign and seek re-election
06:07if he changes his party affiliation directly or indirectly in any manner whatsoever.
06:12Two lines is that anti-defection law required.
06:15Otherwise, you are making a mockery.
06:17There is nothing to do with law.
06:18It is to do with politics.
06:19It is to do with reality.
06:21So, you are, okay, okay, so, okay, so what you are saying is that the law should be anyone
06:27who switches sides should, should resign, fought with and recontest the election on whichever
06:34new party or new symbol he or she is part of, but that they cannot carry on in that same,
06:40in that same position.
06:41But let me ask you this, Dr. Singhvi, the fact of the matter is, as we discussed at the
06:47very outset, immorality cannot be legislated upon.
06:51If at the end of the day, a group of people decide they do not want to work under a
06:56particular
06:56leader or party, as seems to be the case, for example, in the Thinamul Congress, why
07:01stop them?
07:02They will say, we are exercising our free right.
07:05We are a group of 20 people and we want to exercise our free right.
07:09We want to form a new group faction.
07:12If they are chosen to do so, how do you actually ever stop it?
07:16And do you really believe that there is a, given that you are saying there is a non-level
07:21playing field?
07:23Yes.
07:24You see, the question you are raising, Rajdeep, is answered in 1985.
07:29Why was the defection law created?
07:32Anybody can change any party, go anywhere.
07:34It's your volition.
07:35You are a free man.
07:36Why?
07:36Because, per se, the legislature, by a unanimity of overwhelming nature, two-thirds, said that
07:45per se, change of parties after election is per se, not immoral, but illegal.
07:51Immorality was equated to illegality and unconstitutionality by creating the 10th schedule.
07:55Now, it's a different matter that you have abused the 10th schedule, you have not followed
08:00it, you have not followed a judgment which has interpreted the 10th schedule to say that
08:05without cumulative twin conditions satisfied, you are liable for disqualification.
08:09Having reached that stage and given the inherent delays in our court system, I am recommending
08:14for the future.
08:15But there is no doubt that for the present, this is defection.
08:18Because there is no merger of two political parties, neither in West Bengal, nor elsewhere
08:23in Maharashtra.
08:27Can I ask you this point, when I speak to BJP leaders on this, sir, just a minute, sir,
08:34let me ask you, yeah, okay, you know, when I speak to BJP leaders on this, they say, please
08:41ask the Congress, the Ayaram-Gayaram culture started when the Congress was in power, the dominant
08:47power, whichever is the dominant power is like the Upta Suraj, rising sun, everyone gravitates
08:54towards it.
08:55Your party was also accused of misusing agencies, perhaps your party was also accused of using
09:01Sam, Dam, Dandabhed, the BJP is doing the same now.
09:04That's what they say.
09:05What's the difference between when you were in power and now when the BJP is in power?
09:10Allow me.
09:10Answer one, answer one, it's pure water boutery.
09:14There is no point talking about the past and saying two wrongs make a right.
09:18Second, nobody with his right mind will ever say that misusing agencies and doing agency
09:26misuse of vendetta is anywhere near any government, including BJP governments of the past have
09:32ever tried in this country.
09:33The degree, the scope is hundred times more.
09:36Number three, nobody will even allege in his right mind with facts and figures that the resources,
09:41the sheer money power with the BJP, which is hundred times all the rest of Indian parties
09:46put together, including the NDA parties put together, was ever equal in this size prior
09:51to 2014.
09:52So none of these three points are correct.
09:54In any case, water boutery will not solve this problem that there were some instances in
09:58the past when the IRM started in Haryana in 1967.
10:04So what?
10:05My answer is, so what?
10:06Is that an answer to today's situation?
10:08In state after state, you are seeing a naked, an absolute naked, unbridled, egregious, and
10:18without any compunction or without any hesitation or without any sense of shame, this happening.
10:25It's almost a proud declaration that, look, we are the party in power, we have the power,
10:30we have the loaves and fishes of power, and we'll do it.
10:32To hell with you, to hell with the tension.
10:34And remember, I'm saying all this after you've taken two-thirds exception, which is not a protection
10:39under an existing judgment, not the pending judgment, under a prior judgment, which speakers
10:43are refusing to follow.
10:46I, I, okay, I think you've made your point, Dr. Singhvi.
10:52I appreciate you joining me on the show today.
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