- 4 hours ago
The big focus of this episode of Democratic Newsroom is on the internal rebellion which has hit the Trinamool Congress (TMC) following its defeat in the assembly elections.
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00:03Music
00:18Good evening viewers, you're watching the Democratic Newsroom, I'm Preeti Chaudhary.
00:22We are once again, all our editors, our reporters on ground joining us as well.
00:30To the moot point of this debate, the TMC is clearly imploding.
00:35Does it mean it's the end game where regional satraps are concerned?
00:39Or in politics, one should never really lie.
00:43I want to quickly bring in our Maharashtra Bureau Chief, Sahil Joshi,
00:49who's joining us all the way from Mumbai, as well as Indrajit Kundu,
00:52who's joining us from West Bengal.
00:54And lots happening, Indra, in West Bengal.
00:56Gaurav Sawant is with us, Rajdeep Sardesai and Suwesha Sawant.
01:01Let's begin, Rajdeep.
01:04Do you think end game for regional satraps?
01:07Look, clearly, given what's happened in West Bengal,
01:11the implosion of the Thinamul Congress,
01:13given the fact that the DMK was summarily rejected
01:16almost after the elections by the Congress Party,
01:19given the fact that in the last two years,
01:21we've seen parties like the Shiv Sena implode,
01:24we've seen the NCP also being reduced to a very small rump.
01:30You would think, yes, regional parties are on the back foot.
01:34Certainly, the days of the high noon of the regional parties,
01:37Priti, were in the 1990s and early 2000s,
01:40when the major national parties themselves were struggling,
01:45particularly the Congress Party.
01:46That vacuum was partly filled by the BJP
01:49and partly by the regional party.
01:51Now you have a dominant BJP,
01:52which will do whatever it takes,
01:54Sam, Dam, Dandabhed,
01:56to break the regional parties.
01:57And these regional parties are eminently breakable
02:00because many of them revolve around the personality
02:02of an individual more than a long-standing ideology.
02:05And that's exactly what's happened.
02:07The moment Sharad Pawar weakened,
02:09the NCP was broken.
02:10The moment Uddhav Thakre weakened,
02:12the Shiv Sena was broken.
02:14The moment Mamata Banerjee weakens,
02:16she's broken.
02:17So once you have a dominant hegemonical party
02:20of the kind that the BJP is emerging as,
02:22the regional parties become extremely vulnerable
02:26because the political climate
02:29has dramatically changed across India.
02:31I hesitate to write anyone off
02:33because you never know what tomorrow brings.
02:35But certainly compared to what the politics of India was
02:38in the coalition era,
02:40regional parties find themselves facing
02:43increasingly almost an existential crisis.
02:47You know, I'll add two more political parties
02:49into the mix.
02:49The RJD, Lalu Prasad weakened
02:52and Nitish Kumar weakened
02:54and the JDU.
02:55So yes, there is an existential crisis, Gaurav,
02:58that regional satrabs are really facing
03:00in this country.
03:01But just till about,
03:03let's all go,
03:03just only two years.
03:05Sahil, just one,
03:06I'm coming to you, Sahil.
03:08Let me bring in Gaurav first
03:08and then I'll just come to you.
03:09Just two years back,
03:10Gaurav, 2024,
03:13one would think regional parties
03:15were all there themselves.
03:16You had a very strong TMC
03:19showing in 2024.
03:20The DMK did supremely well.
03:22The Shiv Sena NCP combined
03:24did supremely well.
03:25And it's only a two-year window
03:26with what we've seen.
03:28And, you know,
03:29Rajdeep, well within his rights
03:30to blame the BJP.
03:32It's actually the voter in our country
03:34who decides who the voter is voting for.
03:36If one particular party in Bengal
03:39gets 208 seats
03:40and the other is reduced to
03:4280 with 60 walking away,
03:45saying we love the leader
03:46but not the nephew,
03:48how much of it is actually BJP?
03:50And how much of it is the voter?
03:52I'm sure Rajdeep has also seen images
03:55of termite-eating currency
03:56that was recovered from a college
03:59in Bengal.
04:00It's a college,
04:02a place of education
04:03where you have termite-eating currency
04:04and weapons being recovered.
04:06Does that have a role to play
04:08in that party
04:09or is it BJP
04:10that has broken the back
04:11of a weak political party?
04:13And what about...
04:14But most of these...
04:15If the BJP could do this...
04:16But are you talking about...
04:17What are you talking about...
04:19Why could they not do it
04:20in Tamil Nadu?
04:22Allow me to open it up.
04:23Allow me to open the debate.
04:26Rajdeep, I'll come.
04:27See, this kind of inane comments
04:28is part of the problem.
04:30Please look at what happened
04:31with the Shiv Sena.
04:32I just want to make one point.
04:32Are you telling me
04:33that the Shiv Sena broke on its own?
04:34No, no, one minute.
04:35No, no, one minute.
04:36Are you telling me
04:37that the Shiv Sena broke on its own?
04:38Are you telling me
04:39the NCP broke on its own?
04:41Are you telling me
04:41the TMC broke on its own?
04:43That someone like Rito Brato,
04:45who was the right-hand man
04:46seen as Abhishek Banerjee
04:47till a few months ago,
04:48has suddenly discovered
04:49that Abhishek Banerjee...
04:51Please understand,
04:53this is a very
04:53concerning attempt.
04:54Nothing wrong.
04:55This is politics.
04:56But don't give me the belief
04:57that all of this
04:58is happening organically.
04:59This is Sam, Daam, Danda, Bhet
05:01being practiced prisonly.
05:03Let's not get away from it.
05:04Okay, one second.
05:05Okay.
05:06Okay.
05:06One second, one second.
05:07But Gaurav,
05:09the TMC is only...
05:10Now you're changing the whole course.
05:11DMK, DMK,
05:12there is a dynasty involved.
05:14Good point.
05:20Now...
05:21Gaurav, but the TMC
05:23is only 3% less than the BJP.
05:26So there is a huge chunk
05:27in Bengal
05:28that's voted the TMC.
05:29That's an option
05:30for us to come in.
05:31Sahil Kamir.
05:33Well, that's why
05:34I wanted to say that
05:35before you give a chance
05:36to Gaurav,
05:37let me just complete
05:38what I wanted to say.
05:39Otherwise,
05:39then nobody will get a chance.
05:40Okay, let me just
05:41say two things.
05:43What Rajdeep started
05:43in the beginning,
05:44he used the word
05:45that breaking of
05:46the political party.
05:47You know,
05:47the difference right now,
05:49because political parties,
05:50the regional political parties
05:51used to break even earlier.
05:52It has happened
05:53even before
05:54that after losing
05:55the elections,
05:56they lose the steam.
05:57If they are not in power,
05:58it's very difficult
05:58for the regional party
05:59to keep its flock together,
06:01especially when they are
06:02fighting with the national party.
06:03What is happening now,
06:04it's taking over
06:05the political party.
06:07It's not the breaking
06:08of the political party.
06:09What we saw in Maharashtra,
06:10using the 10th schedule,
06:13using the,
06:14you know,
06:15the same constitution
06:16which is being used
06:17to stop the defection
06:19of the MLAs,
06:20it's being used
06:21basically to take over
06:22the political party.
06:23What happened in Maharashtra?
06:24Two groups formed.
06:26Another group,
06:27earlier,
06:27it was challenged
06:28in the Supreme Court
06:29and then the group
06:30started claiming
06:31that we are
06:31the original political party.
06:32We are the real Shiv Sena
06:34and exactly the same thing
06:35is happening right now
06:37in Lake Kolkata.
06:38Okay, one second.
06:39Allow me to...
06:39It's dynasty that will decide
06:40that Uddhav Thakre
06:41is the real Shiv Sena
06:42and that should be...
06:42Okay, one second.
06:43One second.
06:43One second.
06:44Who has taken over NCP?
06:45Who has taken over NCP-AP?
06:47Who has taken over NCP-AP?
06:49Who has taken over NCP-AP?
06:50Okay, I want to go...
06:51Okay, I want to talk about
06:52TNC and not NCP.
06:53Who has taken over...
06:53Okay, one second.
06:54Time out.
06:55And most importantly,
06:56most importantly,
06:57most importantly,
06:58most importantly,
06:59the Supreme Court
07:00has clearly said
07:01in its verdict,
07:02clearly said in the verdict
07:04that the legislative party's leader
07:06cannot be elected
07:07by the majority of the MLA's.
07:09The political party
07:10will appoint the leader
07:11of the legislative party.
07:13And what is happening
07:14in Kolkata
07:15at this point of time
07:16that the speaker
07:17merely on the basis
07:18of the majority of the...
07:20letter by the majority
07:21of the MLA's,
07:21their signatures
07:22he has not even verified,
07:23I guess,
07:24but has appointed
07:25Ritabrata Banerjee
07:27who has been expelled
07:28from the party.
07:28Now they are claiming
07:30that they are the...
07:31Okay, Allah, okay, Sahil,
07:32I can...
07:33Indra, I think,
07:34is the best bet.
07:35Indra is the best bet
07:36to explain
07:37what's really happening
07:37right now in West Bengal
07:39and let's cut across
07:40and get Indra from Kolkata
07:42who's been patiently
07:43listening to all of this
07:44because, Indra,
07:45the spotlight right now
07:46clearly on West Bengal.
07:47The speaker has said
07:48the expulsion
07:49of Ritabrata
07:50is illegal.
07:51So, give us
07:53a ringside view.
07:54Now it seems to be
07:55what's happening right now
07:57where the MLA's
07:58are concerned
07:58a similar conspiracy
08:00theory being floated
08:01and I don't think
08:02it's limited to
08:03just a conspiracy theory
08:04where the Lok Sabha
08:06and the Rajya Sabha
08:07is concerned.
08:0828 MPs in Lok Sabha,
08:1013 in Rajya Sabha,
08:11and two-third are threatening
08:13to break away there as well.
08:18Well, absolutely.
08:19You know,
08:20it's no longer
08:21a conspiracy theory.
08:22It's pretty reality,
08:23you know,
08:23for the Trinamool Congress.
08:25I mean,
08:25things might be questionable.
08:27The role of the speaker
08:28might be questionable
08:29at this point in time
08:30because clearly
08:31Ritabrata Banerjee
08:32was expelled from the party
08:33and, you know,
08:35he has been given
08:36the mantle of the leader
08:38of the opposition.
08:39Now,
08:40there is a dichotomy
08:41in this whole thing
08:42because all these
08:43rebel Trinamool Congress
08:44MLAs
08:44and Ritabrata himself,
08:46they are claiming
08:46that the party chairperson,
08:48the leader,
08:48is Mamata Banerjee
08:49and they want to work with her
08:51but at the same time
08:52they are not willing
08:53to accept
08:54Mamata Banerjee's mandate
08:55or the writ
08:55or the decision.
08:57But what is interesting is
08:58the speaker says
08:59that the very expulsion
09:01of Ritabrata Banerjee
09:02is under question
09:03because as per TMC's constitution,
09:06it has not been followed
09:07because he should have been
09:09show cost.
09:10But it's not very clear
09:12as to whether the speaker
09:13should delve
09:14into the internal,
09:15you know,
09:16dealings of the Trinamool Congress,
09:18how they deal with
09:19their own party MLAs,
09:22whether they want to expel them,
09:23on what grounds
09:24they should expel them.
09:25Should that be the concern
09:27of the speaker
09:27or should he go by
09:29what the party
09:29is telling the speaker
09:31that here is a person
09:32and we've given a letter,
09:34this person has been nominated
09:36and he should be accepted
09:37as this thing.
09:38So,
09:39it's a grey matter,
09:40it's a grey area right now
09:41but clearly
09:42there is some invisible hand
09:44that's at play
09:45as far as all these
09:46MLAs are concerned
09:47and trust me,
09:48I've spoken to several
09:49and a lot of them,
09:51some first-time MLAs
09:52and they're saying
09:52there's some amount
09:53of pressure on them,
09:55there is some amount
09:56of fear
09:57amongst them
09:58and therefore
09:59they are not very sure
10:00as to what they should do
10:01but they are going
10:01with the flow.
10:02All right.
10:03Okay.
10:04Can I get Suisha Sabath
10:05who hasn't got a word in?
10:06Go ahead, Suisha.
10:06I just want to make
10:07two points here.
10:08Firstly,
10:09my point is that
10:11how could Mamata Banerji
10:12not see this coming
10:12and how could they not
10:13plan this better
10:14because largely
10:15optics has been part
10:16of TMC's politics
10:18and there again
10:18after their defeat
10:19we again saw Mamata Banerji
10:20playing the victim card,
10:22going to the streets,
10:23holding rallies,
10:24collecting carders,
10:25walking,
10:25you know,
10:26trying to create
10:26that perception
10:27that we are the victims here,
10:28we are at the suffering end here.
10:30Same came out
10:31from Abhishek Banerji
10:32in that attack
10:33that happened on Saturday
10:34when he went to Sonarpur
10:35and he said,
10:35see,
10:36had I not been
10:36wearing the helmet
10:37I would have been killed
10:39and, you know,
10:40of course the hospitals
10:40later gave him
10:41a clean chit.
10:42my point is that
10:43the optics
10:43that they continue
10:44to use the theatrics
10:45that they are relying upon
10:47is not working anymore.
10:49I mean,
10:49this was clearly
10:50in the making
10:51after they got defeated
10:52and for an anti-BJP force
10:55I agree with Suwesha.
10:57It's kind of a denial
10:58that Mamata Banerji
11:00continues to remain in
11:01which is not helping her
11:02at this point in time.
11:03Okay, okay.
11:03I'm just saying
11:04that for anybody
11:05who wanted
11:06that anti-BJP force,
11:08Mamata Banerji
11:09was such a strong face.
11:11She was at one point
11:12bigger,
11:13more promising
11:14at several ends
11:15more than Rahul Gandhi
11:17and for that person
11:19or for that voter
11:20to see Mamata Banerji
11:22weaken as a leader,
11:24the TMC weaken
11:25is not a good sign
11:27because she was
11:30the one
11:31who was leading
11:31the opposition
11:32and the India Bloc
11:33and with the TMC
11:34weakling
11:34what about
11:35the other regional parties?
11:36It makes a leader
11:37more powerful
11:37than showing
11:39at the hustings
11:40Rajdeep.
11:41The sheer fact
11:41in 2024
11:42she was heralded
11:43as someone
11:43who could replace
11:44Rahul Gandhi.
11:45Suddenly today
11:46you see Mamata Banerji
11:47herself saying
11:48that wait for
11:488th of July
11:49the India alliance
11:51will come together
11:51and then we'll give
11:52a befitting response.
11:53Look, let me turn
11:56the clock back
11:57because you see
11:58you're right
11:58in 2024
11:59you would have had
12:00a very different debate.
12:01Two years later
12:01you're having
12:02a different debate.
12:02Let me take you
12:03back to 1995.
12:05One of the first
12:05one of the dominant
12:08regional leaders
12:09was N.T.
12:10Rama Rao
12:10won a victory
12:12in Andhra Pradesh
12:13within six months
12:14Chandrababu Naidu
12:15had taken over
12:15the party.
12:16His father-in-law
12:17had been virtually
12:18pushed to the
12:19sidelines
12:20at the time.
12:21What happens
12:21with regional parties
12:22is they're very
12:23personality centric.
12:24Once the personality
12:25loses
12:25in this case
12:26Mamata Banerji
12:26the party begins
12:27to crumble
12:28and let's be honest
12:29Mamata Banerji
12:29almost did the same
12:31to the left
12:31in 2011.
12:32Bengal has become
12:33a party state.
12:34Whoever comes to power
12:35the left did it
12:36for 30 years
12:36now the BJP
12:37is doing it.
12:38Police are going
12:39to the houses
12:39homes of MLAs
12:40they will make sure
12:41that the MLAs
12:42therefore are almost
12:43pushed to a corner
12:44where they have no
12:45option.
12:45Do you think
12:47the TMC
12:48will survive this?
12:49Do you think
12:49the TMC
12:50will survive this?
12:51I think they will
12:55find it very difficult
12:56Mamata Banerji
12:57is 72 years
12:58in politics
12:59you never write
12:59of anyone
13:00which comes back
13:01to your question
13:02one of the things
13:02perhaps is to
13:03align with the
13:04India alliance
13:05and perhaps hope
13:06that you are part
13:06of a broader front
13:07but it will be very
13:08NTR never recovered
13:10NTR never recovered
13:11Lalu Prasad
13:12has never recovered
13:13once the Patriarch
13:15and you see
13:16the difference is
13:17Uddha was not
13:17the founder
13:18Mamata is the founder
13:19once the founder
13:20weakens
13:20then the party
13:21edits
13:22the founder
13:23weakened now
13:23or had Bhipu
13:24already taken over
13:25the party
13:26according to TMC
13:27MLAs
13:27it is not their
13:28signature
13:29if it's not their
13:30signature
13:30it's a case of
13:31forgery
13:31there are cases
13:32of corruption
13:33there are cases
13:33that are being
13:34investigated
13:34by the enforcement
13:36there are also
13:38cases of illegal
13:39Bangladeshis living
13:40in India
13:40and the people
13:41are voting
13:42against
13:42what is their
13:43direction
13:43there is no time
13:44one second
13:45let's not talk
13:46over each other
13:47Sahil
13:47there is no time
13:49one second
13:49Sahil
13:50ten seconds
13:51Sahil
13:52ten seconds
13:52I know
13:53there is no
13:55BGT in
13:58can be used
14:01I don't think
14:02N.T. Ramara's
14:03example can be
14:04used for what
14:05is happening
14:05in Tridambul
14:06Congress
14:06at this point
14:07of time
14:07N.T. Ramara
14:07won the
14:08election
14:08it was actually
14:09the revolt
14:10within the
14:11party
14:11what is
14:11happening
14:12right now
14:12is that
14:13after
14:13Tridambul
14:14Congress
14:14lost the
14:15election
14:15suddenly
14:16MLAs
14:16are coming
14:16forward
14:17and saying
14:17there is
14:18no democracy
14:18in the
14:19party
14:19we are not
14:20going to
14:20listen to
14:20Abhishek Banerjeej
14:21that is
14:22where is
14:22the problem
14:22is
14:23and
14:23what is
14:24being used
14:24for that
14:25is basically
14:25the speaker's
14:26office
14:27okay
14:27is that
14:28being used
14:28for that
14:28that is
14:29the larger
14:29question
14:31every regional
14:32party
14:32Indra
14:32you have
14:3230 seconds
14:33yeah
14:35Indra
14:36ji
14:36Preeti
14:37just to
14:37conclude
14:38two very
14:38important
14:39points
14:39I agree
14:40with Gaurav
14:40what he
14:41said
14:41Mamta
14:41Banerjeej
14:42knew it
14:42very well
14:43she was
14:43the one
14:43who actually
14:44entrusted
14:45her
14:45faith
14:46on
14:46Abhishek
14:47Banerjeej
14:47and it
14:48was evidently
14:48made clear
14:49that he
14:49is the
14:49number
14:50two
14:50he is
14:50the one
14:50who got
14:51IPAC
14:51in
14:52but Indra
14:53allow me
14:53because I
14:54just want
14:54to get
14:54awarded
14:55I agree
14:56with everything
14:56that Gaurav
14:57and you
14:57are saying
14:57but the
14:58same people
14:59Ritu Brata
15:00was bought
15:00in by
15:00whom
15:00by Abhishek
15:02Banerjee
15:02exactly
15:03exactly
15:03and no
15:05he was bought
15:05in by
15:05Abhishek
15:06Banerjeej
15:06and suddenly
15:07Ritu Brata
15:07and he was
15:07opposed by
15:08Mamta
15:08Banerjeej
15:09and suddenly
15:09Ritu Brata
15:09now is
15:10opposing
15:11Abhishek
15:12Banerjeej
15:12and is
15:13okay with
15:13Mamta
15:13Banerjeej
15:14exactly
15:16that's
15:22I just want
15:24to say
15:24that when
15:25I watch
15:25these
15:25well
15:26Emily's
15:26talk
15:26you will
15:27always
15:27have
15:27somebody
15:28who will
15:28try and
15:28seek an
15:29opportunity
15:29because
15:30I am
15:33just saying
15:33that when
15:34I watch
15:34these
15:34rebel
15:35Emily's
15:35talk
15:36I find
15:37it hard
15:37to believe
15:38that the
15:38discontent
15:39has come
15:39in right
15:40now
15:40and they
15:40have
15:40been
15:41under
15:41pressure
15:42now
15:44I'm
15:45just
15:45saying
15:45that I
15:45find it
15:46hard
15:46to believe
15:46that the
15:47discontent
15:47has come
15:48in now
15:48this
15:48has been
15:48happening
15:49since
15:49months
15:49how could
15:50Mamta
15:50Banerjee
15:51be blind
15:51to it
15:51why didn't
15:52Abhishek
15:52Banerjee
15:53address this
15:54earlier
15:55this should
15:56have been
15:56earlier
15:58even if
15:59they are
15:59under
15:59pressure
16:00even if
16:00it's
16:00the one
16:02point
16:02where I
16:02agree
16:03with
16:03if she
16:03would have
16:03won the
16:04election
16:04there would
16:04have been
16:05no
16:05defection
16:05that is
16:06the rule
16:06of the
16:07politics
16:07side
16:07the one
16:08point
16:08I agree
16:08with
16:08Gaurav
16:09is that
16:09the
16:10dynistical
16:10politics
16:11framework
16:11that has
16:12been
16:12followed
16:12by
16:12regional
16:13parties
16:13makes
16:13them
16:13more
16:14vulnerable
16:14when
16:14the
16:15founder
16:15either
16:16weakens
16:16or
16:16loses
16:16but
16:17but
16:17to
16:18suggest
16:18that
16:19this
16:19defection
16:20is
16:20going
16:20on
16:20organically
16:21and
16:22has
16:22nothing
16:22to do
16:22with
16:22the
16:23BJP
16:23for
16:23God's
16:24sake
16:24you are
16:25living in
16:25a very
16:25completely
16:26different
16:27path
16:27for
16:27God's
16:28sake
16:29thank you
16:30for
16:30watching
16:31the
16:31democratic
16:31newsroom
16:32the
16:32debate
16:32will
16:32carry
16:33on
16:33but
16:33up
16:34next
16:34is
16:34to
16:34the
16:34point
16:43you
16:45you
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