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00:00You know her from cleveland.com the orange and brown talk podcast ashley bastock joins us right now
00:06Ashley welcome to the show
00:08Thanks for having me guys lots to talk about between these browns and calves this week
00:12You know it we finally got back to the the giving tree that is cleveland sports and the many topics
00:17that we have
00:18Uh, so I guess we'll actually start here because we're just having the the conversation deon sanders says he wants
00:23to talk to todd munkin
00:25I want a little summit there. How should todd munkin handle this? Uh, this deon sanders conversation
00:33Well, I mean i'm sure todd munkin is going to handle it. Well, right?
00:38He's obviously been around the game for so long, but look
00:42I think you approach it as deon is somebody who coached shador for
00:48The entirety of his life up until his nfl career, right? So
00:53I think for todd munkin it should be all about
00:57hearing out what he has to say in terms of
00:59You know, i'm sure he has all that advice about how to coach shador the player
01:05like it's not about
01:06Necessarily how to handle shador his son, but
01:11deon sanders knows
01:13uh, what motivates shador obviously
01:16Uh, what exactly made him successful at the levels that deon helped him
01:21So I really think like that's the way to approach the conversation
01:24It's it's approaching it with hey, not only is this the guy who coached him, but
01:29He's also his dad. He's also a hall of famer like there's all these elements working
01:34But I think at the end of the day
01:35Uh, you would want to hear him out in terms of how he coached shador and what he has to
01:41say about that
01:42I think all right ashley how they both look yesterday
01:46Yeah, I think it first of all
01:48It's like when you have a practice like that
01:50I will say like the first thing I thought was it's kind of hard to come away
01:55And say oh this person won the day or that person won the day because so much of what they
02:00were going through
02:01Uh, was in saw stuff number one and number two
02:05The two spotting is also a part of it and when people hear two spotting
02:09I think there's some question about well, isn't that just like last year and what happened and I will say
02:15it wasn't
02:15Because even when shador was doing his two spotting
02:19Uh, not with a majority of the starters
02:21What I noticed was most of these rookies who are either going to start or play key roles in this
02:28offense
02:29Were down there with him so like spencer fano was down there with him for a large part of practice
02:33Even though most of the first team o-line was on the deshaun watson side of the field during that
02:39two spotting
02:40Uh, same thing with denzel boston and casey concepcion those guys were over with him
02:45So I think these were more quality reps
02:48Uh, but yeah, I think the the negative yesterday was obviously the pick in seven on seven
02:53Which todd munkin talked about those couple of picks dylan gabriel had one as well
02:58Uh, very colorfully at the end of practice
03:01And deshaun watson in that seven on seven drill had the play of the day
03:05Now again when you have a play like that the 35 yard go route to denzel boston
03:11Uh, that comes with the caveat of you're supposed to make throws like that
03:15There's not that defensive pressure
03:17But that's also why I think the picks in that session from the younger guys were sort of maddening to
03:23todd munkin
03:24So I think they both looked good going through the install stuff and and I think it's significant
03:29Shador took the first 11 on 11 reps uh in that first real 11 on 11 period
03:35But I also think it's significant that deshaun watson ended practice in the final competitive period again
03:40All right, so with with the fact that munkin said what he said I we noticed that it went
03:46It didn't go viral. I don't even know what that means anymore, but it got picked up a lot of
03:50places
03:50ESPN played it today multiple times
03:52Will will todd munkin being simply different than kevin stefanski?
03:57Will that be enough in 2026?
04:01You know, it's funny because we were having this discussion yesterday and it's kind of like
04:06When you're talking about it and talking about coaching styles and communication styles
04:11Like I think there's this tendency to be like very black and white about it one's good one's bad
04:17And sometimes I think it's just about the change itself
04:20So I don't know if it's going to be enough, but I do know it could potentially be a huge
04:26part of it, right?
04:27Like I think todd munkin's offensive system
04:29Bill has to work and work for the players that he's going to have on the browns roster
04:35And things bode well for that, right? Like he coached up lamar jackson to some career numbers
04:40He works very well with these kinds of quarterbacks. So and he's worked with
04:47Successfully with many different kinds of quarterbacks. I've used the example before it doesn't get much different between
04:51Stetson bennett at georgia and lamar jackson with the ravens. So that stuff still has to be on point
04:57But I do think like the merits to his very no-nonsense old-school kind of communication
05:04The long practices, right? Those things I think can benefit a younger team
05:10And the browns have over the last two years gotten significantly younger than they were in like 2022 2023
05:17So I certainly think it's a big part of the recipe
05:21But it's not the only thing that is going to help
05:25Manufacture the change cleveland wants to see the x's and o's of the offense are really
05:30Going to have to carry a huge chunk of that as well
05:33Ashley, I heard you and mary kay and dan discussing over at cleveland.com the soft launch as you guys
05:39put it
05:39Of deshaun watson. Are you buying into that? Do you buy that? This has been a soft launch for deshaun?
05:45I do and you know, I think I said this on our podcast yesterday as well
05:51Like this soft launch to me
05:52Goes back to really last year when they were speaking very positively
05:58About deshaun watson
06:00When you know, they opened that practice window for him, right? Like kevin stefanski spoke very positively about him
06:06I'll always remember the bill musgrave quote
06:09The former quarterbacks coaches now with the jets when when he said he didn't know what they would do
06:14Without deshaun watson in that room with those younger quarterbacks last year
06:18So I really think this is long term and it's not just stuff on social media and I also brought
06:24this up yesterday
06:25Like I think the social media reaction to deshaun watson
06:29Obviously, it just seems like it's been more negative in recent years
06:33Given the results on the field especially that's aside from the off the field allegations that he came to cleveland
06:41with
06:41Right, but there was this also really in-person negative reaction
06:45Obviously when he got injured and ruptured that achilles against the bangles in 2024
06:50So I certainly think as you know, they go through this process with him and as he's still on this
06:57roster
06:57Like we've always made it very clear that like the perception of deshaun watson on the outside
07:03Is different than the perception of deshaun watson inside the building that he was in very good standing with this
07:08organization
07:09Last year even though I think two years a lot of people thought his time here was just going to
07:14be done
07:14So I think the way of wording it as a soft launch is kind of the perfect phrasing because
07:21Essentially you have one quarterback who's not very popular with anyone and another young quarterback that got here last year
07:28Who is widely popular not just among browns fans, but among you know
07:34Has his own fan base that he brought here to cleveland and should or sanders
07:37So it's this really interesting dichotomy right now that they're gonna have to manage from a pr standpoint for sure
07:43Ashley, i'm sure you saw this already but that on the recent episode of the new heinz podcast travis kelsey
07:50Uh says he taught taylor swift about jerome bettis
07:53And I feel like this is the perfect per the perfect question to ask you because your two worlds are
07:59football and covering it endlessly and certainly taylor swift
08:03If so, is there a football player that you would want to educate tay-tay on?
08:09Is there a football player that I would want to educate taylor on?
08:15Could it be anyone like it doesn't have to be a browns player?
08:19Nope
08:19And it can be anything
08:20Yeah, someone you think is really interesting
08:23Oh my gosh guys, can we come back to this question?
08:25Can I get a minute to think about it here?
08:27Yes, so my answer would be either john randall or reggie white
08:31Okay, because those are two of my all-time favorite players
08:35Okay, those are pretty good answers
08:37Does jp have one?
08:38Rasheed rice
08:41Oh my god
08:42Maybe why her husband needs to not
08:43Their potential husband maybe needs to not like wear t-shirts
08:46Yeah, you know
08:46Yeah, I mean that's valid
08:48That is honestly very valid
08:50No, honestly, let me let's come back to this at the end of the segment
08:53I need to think about this
08:54You guys are springing this on me and I want to give a good answer
08:56All right, you don't want to let taylor down
08:58I can hear it in your voice
08:59I don't want to let taylor down, no
09:01It's the most invested you've been in any question I've ever asked you
09:05And I'm actually pretty happy with it
09:06Is there
09:07I almost called you taylor
09:09Actually
09:11Is there anyone at practice yesterday that stood out?
09:14I know they're not doing much
09:14And you mentioned the two-spotting and everything
09:16But is there anybody that you're like
09:17I'm just
09:18I was more impressed than I thought I would be
09:22Unequivocally for me, it's Quinshawn Judkins
09:24Just the fact that he was out there at all
09:26I was kind of surprised
09:28Because the last time we were out there at practice
09:30He was just off to the side
09:31You know, he was here, but he wasn't doing anything
09:33But what was so impressive to me
09:35Was not just that he was doing 11-on-11s
09:39Because when we saw him out there doing running back drills
09:42I was like, oh yeah, that's great that he's out there
09:46But I just didn't really expect much more beyond individual production
09:49So it's that he was out there in the 11-on-11s
09:53And he looked so sure of himself and fast
09:56In those 11-on-11s in a way that I think bodes really well
10:01For this football team
10:03And I came away from yesterday
10:06Just being really impressed
10:08Considering the injury he's coming off of
10:10Is Quinshawn the key to the Browns offense in 2026?
10:15I think so
10:16Because we know how much Todd Munkin uses that run game, right?
10:21And I think we're trying to see them get back to that right now
10:25But, I mean, it's tough to answer
10:27Because I think the answer is
10:29Ultimately, it always comes down to your quarterback play
10:32In the modern-day NFL
10:33So I guess I would say that
10:35And then running back is still going to be secondary a little bit
10:40But you're going to have to have a really good season from Quinshawn Judkins
10:44Just given the characteristics of this Todd Munkin-style system
10:48And for it all to work
10:49Staying with the offense
10:51We've kind of been going back and forth on Harold Fannin
10:53For a little bit here, like a week or so
10:55Trying to figure out exactly
10:56What his role is going to be this upcoming year
10:58And if it's going to take a hit relative to last year
11:00Now that you have Denzel Boston here
11:03Now that you have Casey Concepcion
11:04And they've added some more wide receivers
11:06I would think his workload would go down
11:08But I also want to see him continue to ascend
11:12Yeah, I'm curious more if it's going to be that
11:15Like, is it going to be by design?
11:17Or is it just going to be these defensive coordinators
11:20Having a full year's worth of film on him?
11:23I think that's also an interesting part of this
11:26But, I mean, I do think the good news for Harold Fannin
11:29Is the fact that he is unequivocally the tight end number one
11:32And these Todd Munkin offenses obviously have utilized tight ends
11:36Like, look no further than Mark Andrews, Isaiah Likely
11:39He knows how to involve those guys
11:42Involve them in the red zone
11:44And I really think for the Browns
11:45Like, it's just the fact that
11:47You also have a receiver now
11:49Who was really good in the red zone in college
11:51In Denzel Boston
11:52So, it should
11:54If it all works how I think Todd Munkin
11:57Is going to want it to work
11:58It'll actually up Harold Fannin's production
12:01While maybe, you know, his workload
12:03Might not be the exact same
12:05But his production will go up
12:06And I think that's ultimately what matters
12:08Ashley, this is something I'm sure we'll get into this week
12:11JP and I
12:12But, obviously, right now the perception is
12:15Deshawn's slightly ahead of Shador
12:18Let's say by the time a decision comes
12:20They're perceptionally tied in the eyes of Todd Munkin
12:24Who does the tie go to?
12:28Who would a potential tiebreaker go to?
12:31Well, when are we saying this tie is occurring?
12:34Is it, like, training camp?
12:36Or
12:36August 15th
12:37Whenever Munkin's got to make the actual decision
12:42Like, I just don't see a scenario in which there's a tie
12:45Like, I take issue with the premise of the hypothetical here
12:49So, the hypothetical actually
12:49It's kind of based on the idea that in the past 24 hours
12:52When we've asked people about who was better at practice yesterday
12:55Deshawn or Shador
12:55The answer's been Deshawn slightly
12:58Like, slightly
13:00Deshawn slightly
13:01As if, like, this thing is not
13:02There's no runaway that's happening here
13:04It is neck and neck
13:05And, like, my opinion on it is simple
13:07If it's a tie scenario
13:09Tie goes to Shador
13:10But, like, how much better does Deshawn have to be
13:12To justify the idea that he could play 2026
13:16And despite what he tells Jeremy Fowler
13:18He's gone in 2027
13:20If he plays really well
13:21He's not coming back
13:22And so, like, I don't know
13:24I think it'd be kind of foolish to give the tie to Deshawn
13:29Well, I think why you would
13:31Is simply the experience factor at that point
13:34But it's also interesting
13:35Like, to your point, JP
13:36We've heard Todd Munkin
13:38Talk about how last year went
13:40Obviously being a factor in this
13:42So, Shador ended the season last year
13:45Deshawn didn't play
13:46So he has the advantage there
13:49But Deshawn Watson does have more experience
13:51We know this schedule
13:52And, like, why I say that would potentially
13:55Or should potentially play a factor
13:57Is the tough road stretch
14:00That you begin with this schedule
14:02It's like, what, six out of the first nine
14:05Are on the road
14:05And then you have the four straight home games
14:08After that
14:09This schedule is very back and forth
14:10In terms of how they split their road
14:14And home games this year
14:15And it's very streaky in a sort of weird way
14:18So, I think that should hypothetically
14:22Play a role in deciding this
14:24For them
14:25But I don't know how much better
14:27In terms of
14:29I guess, like, it's completions
14:31Like, what exactly we're using to measure this
14:33I'm not quite sure of
14:35Because we also know those preseason games
14:37Are so wonky
14:38No one's game planning for anybody
14:40No one's trying to show anything
14:42So, it's really all this stuff behind the scenes
14:45And this understanding of the offense
14:46And that sort of stuff
14:48And I think it's the fact, too
14:50That Deshawn Watson
14:51Just by nature of his experience
14:53Has been in more offensive systems
14:55And he is more familiar
14:57With a lot of these concepts
14:59That Todd Munkin is known for
15:01It's just like stuff he did in Houston
15:03And, I mean, I think the issue is going to be
15:05This long layoff he's had, obviously
15:07But I think that experience
15:09On the Deshawn Watson side of things
15:12Like, would certainly have to play a part
15:14What was your read on Munkin's answer
15:17To the question about Miles Garrett
15:19And the firmness
15:20And almost agitation in his voice?
15:24Yeah, I think that's just Todd Munkin
15:26Being a little bit prickly
15:27About getting asked about this again
15:29Which I think we've seen a handful of times now
15:32I think it's part of his personality
15:33I mean, I think it's interesting
15:35It's become this sort of national talking point
15:37It seems like
15:38Because this isn't anything
15:40That Miles Garrett hasn't done in the past
15:42He's, like, never at these OTAs
15:44We know that
15:45We know where he's been
15:46He's posted on his Instagram
15:47He's been all over the place traveling
15:49And he normally does it this time of year
15:51Now, do I think it's necessarily
15:54What he should be doing?
15:55Like, I don't know
15:56But I do know that that's the reality
15:59And it's not necessarily any different
16:01Like, I wish he had been there
16:04In the sense of
16:05He's one of the best players on the team
16:06And I think it helps set the culture
16:09But you can't really hold it against him
16:11And say, oh, something could be brewing
16:13Based on this and this alone
16:15When it's just how we've seen
16:17Miles Garrett approach
16:18These voluntary sessions
16:19The whole time I've covered the team
16:21Since 2021
16:22So it doesn't necessarily raise
16:25Any more flags to me
16:27But we know Todd Munkin
16:28Loves when guys are there
16:30He's talked about that
16:31He loves guys who love football
16:33As much as he does
16:34Football's been his whole life
16:35For his whole life
16:36He talked about, you know
16:37Dressing up as a football player
16:39Every Halloween when he was a little kid
16:41This is all he ever wanted to do
16:42So I think he appreciates
16:44Those guys that are there
16:45But he's also gone out of his way
16:46To make the point of
16:47This is voluntary
16:48And said, you know
16:49Everyone likes to make a big deal
16:51Out of this stuff
16:52And it really isn't
16:53But he's very happy
16:54With the guys who are there
16:55So I don't read anything
16:57Larger into it
16:58And I took his answer yesterday
16:59As just sort of
17:00The prickly side of Todd Munkin
17:02That I think we're going to see
17:04More and more
17:04Over the coming months
17:05All right, Ashley
17:06We've given you time
17:07I've thought of two more names
17:08That I would like to teach
17:09Taylor Swift about
17:10Michael Dean Perry
17:12And William the Refrigerator Perry
17:14I'd love to teach him
17:15About the Perry Brothers
17:16You could teach him about
17:18The Perry Brothers
17:18Are a great one
17:19Getting a rushing touchdown
17:21In the end zone
17:22When Walter Payton
17:23Hadn't yet been in
17:24And how that basically
17:25Broke the Bears apart
17:25Yep
17:27All right, so what's your answer?
17:28It's a great lesson
17:29There's a story there
17:30There's all sorts of
17:30Great stuff there
17:31My answer is kind of
17:33Maybe a cop-out potentially
17:35But I have my reasons
17:36And especially given my age
17:37And especially I'm from Cleveland
17:38I think it makes sense
17:39Why I would want Taylor Swift
17:40To know all the lore
17:42About Joe Thomas
17:43Because I think she would be
17:45Very impressed by the snap streak
17:47And knowing that
17:49For years and years and years
17:50Joe Thomas was the only
17:52Real good thing
17:53About the Cleveland Browns
17:55So I gotta say
17:56Joe Thomas
17:57Again, Joe Thomas
17:58Was my favorite player
17:59When I was growing up here
18:00So I think it's the easy answer
18:02But I think if I'm picking
18:04A Browns player
18:05That's the one I want Taylor
18:07To have all the lore on
18:08Because I think she'd appreciate
18:10All of Joe's hard work
18:11And his dedication
18:12To becoming a Hall of Famer
18:14Greatness
18:15On a team that wasn't winning
18:17While he was here
18:18Well I don't think
18:20I can get a lot of people
18:20In Cleveland to argue
18:21And certainly not
18:22This show here
18:23So it was a smart play
18:25Ashley, we appreciate you
18:26Thank you so much
18:27Alright, thanks guys
18:28Ashley Bastock there
18:30Cleveland.com
18:31The Orange and Brown Talk podcast
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18:34We Make It Right
18:35Call Kyle Wright Hotline
18:36Orange and Brown Talk estaba
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